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  #41 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Derek" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:00:31 GMT, "rick" > wrote:
>>"Derek" > wrote in message
. ..
>>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:41:15 GMT, "rick" >
>>> wrote:
>>>>"Derek" > wrote in message
m...
>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:49:18 GMT, "rick" >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>"Derek" > wrote in message
>>>>>>news:i2tu61ps07bl2cfa46t068s0ire64nq2qe@4ax. com...
>>>>>>> On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:40:02 -0400, Sprang
>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>In article
arthlink.net>,
>>>>>>>>"rick" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [..]
>>>>>>>>> > It takes more grain to produce meat than to produce
>>>>>>>>> > grain. More than half of America's crop production
>>>>>>>>> > is fed to livestock.
>>>>>>>>> ======================
>>>>>>>>> ROTLMAO You have proof of that claim, right?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I guess I'll have to do the research for you tomorrow,
>>>>>>>>meat
>>>>>>>>industry apologist. It has been a while since I looked
>>>>>>>>into
>>>>>>>>that, but that's the number I remember. Or do you already
>>>>>>>>have an idea of how much grain in the U.S goes to
>>>>>>>>livestock?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> '..according to FAO (199lc) the cereal grains consumed
>>>>>>> directly per capita are just a small fraction of the
>>>>>>> total
>>>>>>> per
>>>>>>> capita cereal grains consumption (directly and
>>>>>>> indirectly)
>>>>>>> in the United States. In fact, of the total domestic
>>>>>>> consumption of cereal grains 72% are used to feed
>>>>>>> livestock, 11% are for direct human consumption, and the
>>>>>>> remaining 17% are used by the food industry to produce
>>>>>>> different food products and alcoholic beverages.
>>>>>>> Therefore,
>>>>>>> almost 90% of the cereal grains are consumed indirectly
>>>>>>> by Americans. A similar pattern occurs for soybeans
>>>>>>> and oil seeds. A large fraction of soybeans is used for
>>>>>>> feeding livestock, either directly or in the form of
>>>>>>> by-products (bean meal) of soy oil production, and in the
>>>>>>> food industry to produce soy oil for human consumption.'
>>>>>>> http://dieoff.org/page55.htm
>>>>>>=================
>>>>>>I never thought I'd ever say this, but thanks twit. You
>>>>>>just
>>>>>>proved him wrong....
>>>>>
>>>>> Rather, those percentages prove you wrong and 'Sprang'
>>>>> right.
>>>>> Learn to read.
>>>>=================
>>>>I have, maybe you should learn. He claimed that 90% of all
>>>>crops are ed to animals.
>>>
>>> Look at the top of this post and you'll see that he
>>> claimed, "More than half of America's crop production
>>> is fed to livestock.", not 90%, liar Ricky, As it turns
>>> out, his 51% guess is 21% shy of the actual 72%
>>> given by David Pimentel Cornell University and Mario
>>> Giampietro Isiituto Nazionale dell; Nutrizione, Rome.

>>===============
>>Yeah, I picked the 90 from your idiocy.

>
> You don't get to blame me for your errors and subsequent
> lies, Ricky.
>
>>You still haven't proven him right, killer..

>
> He claimed that, "More than half of America's crop
> production is fed to livestock.", and the evidence
> which gives a 72 % is exactly as he said: more than
> half, which proves he was right.

========================
Still have comprehension problems, don't you fool. Your claim is
that 72% of grains are fed to animals. He claimed more than half
of all crops are fed to animals. Too bad you are too stupid to
even read, eh killer?


This is very basic
> stuff Rick, and if you can't admit you're wrong on
> something as simple and as obvious as this, then it's
> certain you'll never admit to being wrong about
> anything, even when forced to look at the facts.

====================
You haven't presented the facts to prove what he said. Too bad,
twits. But then, you've never been able to prove anything yet.


>
>>> "In fact, of the total domestic consumption of cereal
>>> grains
>>>
>>> *72% are used to feed livestock,**
>>> ============================

>>Too bad you still haven't proved him right.

>
> 72% is more than half, which proves 'Sprang' was
> right.
>
>>His statement was "America's crop production"

>
> He was referring to grain;
> "It takes more grain to produce meat than to produce
> grain. More than half of America's crop production
> is fed to livestock."

======================
Nope. Try again. America's Crop production isn't just grain
production.


>
>>> 11% are for direct human consumption ...."
>>> http://dieoff.org/page55.htm

>
>



  #42 (permalink)   Report Post  
Derek
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 01:46:55 GMT, "rick" > wrote:
>"Derek" > wrote in message ...
>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:00:31 GMT, "rick" > wrote:
>>>"Derek" > wrote in message ...
>>>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:41:15 GMT, "rick" > wrote:
>>>>>"Derek" > wrote in message ...
>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:49:18 GMT, "rick" > wrote:
>>>>>>>"Derek" > wrote in message ...
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:40:02 -0400, Sprang > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>In article .net>, "rick" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [..]
>>>>>>>>>> > It takes more grain to produce meat than to produce
>>>>>>>>>> > grain. More than half of America's crop production
>>>>>>>>>> > is fed to livestock.
>>>>>>>>>> ======================
>>>>>>>>>> ROTLMAO You have proof of that claim, right?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I guess I'll have to do the research for you tomorrow,
>>>>>>>>>meat industry apologist. It has been a while since I
>>>>>>>>>looked into that, but that's the number I remember. Or
>>>>>>>>>do you already have an idea of how much grain in the
>>>>>>>>>U.S goes to livestock?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> '..according to FAO (199lc) the cereal grains consumed
>>>>>>>> directly per capita are just a small fraction of the
>>>>>>>> total per capita cereal grains consumption (directly and
>>>>>>>> indirectly) in the United States. In fact, of the total
>>>>>>>> domestic consumption of cereal grains 72% are used to
>>>>>>>> feed livestock, 11% are for direct human consumption,
>>>>>>>> and the remaining 17% are used by the food industry to
>>>>>>>> produce different food products and alcoholic beverages.
>>>>>>>> Therefore, almost 90% of the cereal grains are consumed
>>>>>>>> indirectly by Americans. A similar pattern occurs for
>>>>>>>> soybeans and oil seeds. A large fraction of soybeans is
>>>>>>>> used for feeding livestock, either directly or in the form of
>>>>>>>> by-products (bean meal) of soy oil production, and in the
>>>>>>>> food industry to produce soy oil for human consumption.'
>>>>>>>> http://dieoff.org/page55.htm
>>>>>>>=================
>>>>>>>I never thought I'd ever say this, but thanks twit. You
>>>>>>>just proved him wrong....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rather, those percentages prove you wrong and 'Sprang'
>>>>>> right. Learn to read.
>>>>>=================
>>>>>I have, maybe you should learn. He claimed that 90% of all
>>>>>crops are ed to animals.
>>>>
>>>> Look at the top of this post and you'll see that he
>>>> claimed, "More than half of America's crop production
>>>> is fed to livestock.", not 90%, liar Ricky, As it turns
>>>> out, his 51% guess is 21% shy of the actual 72%
>>>> given by David Pimentel Cornell University and Mario
>>>> Giampietro Isiituto Nazionale dell; Nutrizione, Rome.
>>>===============
>>>Yeah, I picked the 90 from your idiocy.

>>
>> You don't get to blame me for your errors and subsequent
>> lies, Ricky.


When are you going to explain why you lied? He never
made the claim of 90%, like you insisted he did.

>>>You still haven't proven him right, killer..

>>
>> He claimed that, "More than half of America's crop
>> production is fed to livestock.", and the evidence
>> which gives a 72 % is exactly as he said: more than
>> half, which proves he was right.

>========================
>Still have comprehension problems, don't you fool. Your claim is
>that 72% of grains are fed to animals.


Which supports his claim of "More than half ..." Look
again at the evidence I produced above.

> He claimed more than half of all crops are fed to animals.


And he was correct to do so, according to the evidence
I produced. You, however, lied by insisting, " He claimed
that 90% of all crops are ed to animals."

>Too bad you are too stupid to even read, eh killer?


Don't you realise that 72% is "More than half..." yet
Rick?

> This is very basic
>> stuff Rick, and if you can't admit you're wrong on
>> something as simple and as obvious as this, then it's
>> certain you'll never admit to being wrong about
>> anything, even when forced to look at the facts.

>====================
>You haven't presented the facts to prove what he said.


You're lying again. Just look above and read what I
brought here as evidence to prove it.

>>>> "In fact, of the total domestic consumption of cereal
>>>> grains
>>>>
>>>> *72% are used to feed livestock,**
>>>> ============================
>>>Too bad you still haven't proved him right.

>>
>> 72% is more than half, which proves 'Sprang' was
>> right.
>>
>>>His statement was "America's crop production"

>>
>> He was referring to grain;
>> "It takes more grain to produce meat than to produce
>> grain. More than half of America's crop production
>> is fed to livestock."

>======================
>Nope.


Yep. Your math is clearly very poor. Believe it or not,
72% is "More than half ...", just like he said.

>>>> 11% are for direct human consumption ...."
>>>> http://dieoff.org/page55.htm


  #43 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Derek" > wrote in message
news
> On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 01:46:55 GMT, "rick" > wrote:
>>"Derek" > wrote in message
. ..
>>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:00:31 GMT, "rick" >
>>> wrote:
>>>>"Derek" > wrote in message
m...
>>>>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:41:15 GMT, "rick" >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>"Derek" > wrote in message
>>>>>>news:qe0171hrath22f0hon7orfp15griq2cl7h@4ax. com...
>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:49:18 GMT, "rick" >
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>"Derek" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>>news:i2tu61ps07bl2cfa46t068s0ire64nq2qe@4a x.com...
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:40:02 -0400, Sprang
>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>In article
.earthlink.net>,
>>>>>>>>>>"rick" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [..]
>>>>>>>>>>> > It takes more grain to produce meat than to produce
>>>>>>>>>>> > grain. More than half of America's crop production
>>>>>>>>>>> > is fed to livestock.
>>>>>>>>>>> ======================
>>>>>>>>>>> ROTLMAO You have proof of that claim, right?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I guess I'll have to do the research for you tomorrow,
>>>>>>>>>>meat industry apologist. It has been a while since I
>>>>>>>>>>looked into that, but that's the number I remember. Or
>>>>>>>>>>do you already have an idea of how much grain in the
>>>>>>>>>>U.S goes to livestock?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> '..according to FAO (199lc) the cereal grains consumed
>>>>>>>>> directly per capita are just a small fraction of the
>>>>>>>>> total per capita cereal grains consumption (directly
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> indirectly) in the United States. In fact, of the total
>>>>>>>>> domestic consumption of cereal grains 72% are used to
>>>>>>>>> feed livestock, 11% are for direct human consumption,
>>>>>>>>> and the remaining 17% are used by the food industry to
>>>>>>>>> produce different food products and alcoholic
>>>>>>>>> beverages.
>>>>>>>>> Therefore, almost 90% of the cereal grains are consumed
>>>>>>>>> indirectly by Americans. A similar pattern occurs for
>>>>>>>>> soybeans and oil seeds. A large fraction of soybeans is
>>>>>>>>> used for feeding livestock, either directly or in the
>>>>>>>>> form of
>>>>>>>>> by-products (bean meal) of soy oil production, and in
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> food industry to produce soy oil for human
>>>>>>>>> consumption.'
>>>>>>>>> http://dieoff.org/page55.htm
>>>>>>>>=================
>>>>>>>>I never thought I'd ever say this, but thanks twit. You
>>>>>>>>just proved him wrong....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rather, those percentages prove you wrong and 'Sprang'
>>>>>>> right. Learn to read.
>>>>>>=================
>>>>>>I have, maybe you should learn. He claimed that 90% of all
>>>>>>crops are ed to animals.
>>>>>
>>>>> Look at the top of this post and you'll see that he
>>>>> claimed, "More than half of America's crop production
>>>>> is fed to livestock.", not 90%, liar Ricky, As it turns
>>>>> out, his 51% guess is 21% shy of the actual 72%
>>>>> given by David Pimentel Cornell University and Mario
>>>>> Giampietro Isiituto Nazionale dell; Nutrizione, Rome.
>>>>===============
>>>>Yeah, I picked the 90 from your idiocy.
>>>
>>> You don't get to blame me for your errors and subsequent
>>> lies, Ricky.

>
> When are you going to explain why you lied? He never
> made the claim of 90%, like you insisted he did.
>
>>>>You still haven't proven him right, killer..
>>>
>>> He claimed that, "More than half of America's crop
>>> production is fed to livestock.", and the evidence
>>> which gives a 72 % is exactly as he said: more than
>>> half, which proves he was right.

>>========================
>>Still have comprehension problems, don't you fool. Your claim
>>is
>>that 72% of grains are fed to animals.

>
> Which supports his claim of "More than half ..." Look
> again at the evidence I produced above.
>
>> He claimed more than half of all crops are fed to animals.

>
> And he was correct to do so, according to the evidence
> I produced. You, however, lied by insisting, " He claimed
> that 90% of all crops are ed to animals."
> =====================

No, he wasn't correct, and neither are your attempts...



>>Too bad you are too stupid to even read, eh killer?

>
> Don't you realise that 72% is "More than half..." yet
> Rick?

================
Sure, but you have failed to show that half of all crops are fed
to animals, fool.


>
>> This is very basic
>>> stuff Rick, and if you can't admit you're wrong on
>>> something as simple and as obvious as this, then it's
>>> certain you'll never admit to being wrong about
>>> anything, even when forced to look at the facts.

>>====================
>>You haven't presented the facts to prove what he said.

>
> You're lying again. Just look above and read what I
> brought here as evidence to prove it.
> =================

No, you haven't, killer.



>>>>> "In fact, of the total domestic consumption of cereal
>>>>> grains
>>>>>
>>>>> *72% are used to feed livestock,**
>>>>> ============================
>>>>Too bad you still haven't proved him right.
>>>
>>> 72% is more than half, which proves 'Sprang' was
>>> right.
>>>
>>>>His statement was "America's crop production"
>>>
>>> He was referring to grain;
>>> "It takes more grain to produce meat than to produce
>>> grain. More than half of America's crop production
>>> is fed to livestock."

>>======================
>>Nope.

>
> Yep. Your math is clearly very poor. Believe it or not,
> 72% is "More than half ...", just like he said.
> =======================

Nope. Just as you have proven yourself, he was wrong. Thanks,
twits...



>>>>> 11% are for direct human consumption ...."
>>>>> http://dieoff.org/page55.htm

>



  #44 (permalink)   Report Post  
Derek
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:22:53 GMT, "rick" > wrote:
>"Derek" > wrote in message news
>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 01:46:55 GMT, "rick" > wrote:
>>>"Derek" > wrote in message ...
>>>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:00:31 GMT, "rick" > wrote:
>>>>>"Derek" > wrote in message ...
>>>>>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:41:15 GMT, "rick" > wrote:
>>>>>>>"Derek" > wrote in message ...
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:49:18 GMT, "rick" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>"Derek" > wrote in message ...
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:40:02 -0400, Sprang > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>In article .net>, "rick" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [..]
>>>>>>>>>>>> > It takes more grain to produce meat than to produce
>>>>>>>>>>>> > grain. More than half of America's crop production
>>>>>>>>>>>> > is fed to livestock.
>>>>>>>>>>>> ======================
>>>>>>>>>>>> ROTLMAO You have proof of that claim, right?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I guess I'll have to do the research for you tomorrow,
>>>>>>>>>>>meat industry apologist. It has been a while since I
>>>>>>>>>>>looked into that, but that's the number I remember. Or
>>>>>>>>>>>do you already have an idea of how much grain in the
>>>>>>>>>>>U.S goes to livestock?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> '..according to FAO (199lc) the cereal grains consumed
>>>>>>>>>> directly per capita are just a small fraction of the
>>>>>>>>>> total per capita cereal grains consumption (directly
>>>>>>>>>> and indirectly) in the United States. In fact, of the total
>>>>>>>>>> domestic consumption of cereal grains 72% are used to
>>>>>>>>>> feed livestock, 11% are for direct human consumption,
>>>>>>>>>> and the remaining 17% are used by the food industry to
>>>>>>>>>> produce different food products and alcoholic beverages.
>>>>>>>>>> Therefore, almost 90% of the cereal grains are consumed
>>>>>>>>>> indirectly by Americans. A similar pattern occurs for
>>>>>>>>>> soybeans and oil seeds. A large fraction of soybeans is
>>>>>>>>>> used for feeding livestock, either directly or in the form of
>>>>>>>>>> by-products (bean meal) of soy oil production, and in the
>>>>>>>>>> food industry to produce soy oil for human consumption.'
>>>>>>>>>> http://dieoff.org/page55.htm
>>>>>>>>>=================
>>>>>>>>>I never thought I'd ever say this, but thanks twit. You
>>>>>>>>>just proved him wrong....
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rather, those percentages prove you wrong and 'Sprang'
>>>>>>>> right. Learn to read.
>>>>>>>=================
>>>>>>>I have, maybe you should learn. He claimed that 90% of all
>>>>>>>crops are ed to animals.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Look at the top of this post and you'll see that he
>>>>>> claimed, "More than half of America's crop production
>>>>>> is fed to livestock.", not 90%, liar Ricky, As it turns
>>>>>> out, his 51% guess is 21% shy of the actual 72%
>>>>>> given by David Pimentel Cornell University and Mario
>>>>>> Giampietro Isiituto Nazionale dell; Nutrizione, Rome.
>>>>>===============
>>>>>Yeah, I picked the 90 from your idiocy.
>>>>
>>>> You don't get to blame me for your errors and subsequent
>>>> lies, Ricky.

>>
>> When are you going to explain why you lied? He never
>> made the claim of 90%, like you insisted he did.


If you're not prepared to explain why you lied about
"Sprang's" claim, why should anyone believe a word
you write?

>>>>>You still haven't proven him right, killer..
>>>>
>>>> He claimed that, "More than half of America's crop
>>>> production is fed to livestock.", and the evidence
>>>> which gives a 72 % is exactly as he said: more than
>>>> half, which proves he was right.
>>>========================
>>>Still have comprehension problems, don't you fool.
>>>Your claim is that 72% of grains are fed to animals.

>>
>> Which supports his claim of "More than half ..." Look
>> again at the evidence I produced above.


My guess is that the evidence which support his claim
is just too hard for you to refute, and that's why you lied
about his claim.

>>> He claimed more than half of all crops are fed to animals.

>>
>> And he was correct to do so, according to the evidence
>> I produced. You, however, lied by insisting, " He claimed
>> that 90% of all crops are ed to animals."
>> =====================

>No, he wasn't correct, and neither are your attempts...


Evidence shows that he was correct. More than half
the grain he was referring to in his paragraph DOES go
to feed livestock.

>>>Too bad you are too stupid to even read, eh killer?

>>
>> Don't you realise that 72% is "More than half..." yet
>> Rick?

>================
>Sure


Then you have no option but to concede and take on
board that more than half the grain "Sprang" referred
to in his paragraph at the top of this page goes to feed
livestock.

>>> This is very basic
>>>> stuff Rick, and if you can't admit you're wrong on
>>>> something as simple and as obvious as this, then it's
>>>> certain you'll never admit to being wrong about
>>>> anything, even when forced to look at the facts.
>>>====================
>>>You haven't presented the facts to prove what he said.

>>
>> You're lying again. Just look above and read what I
>> brought here as evidence to prove it.
>> =================

>No, you haven't, killer.


It's there, exactly where I put it, and hiding from it
doesn't help you out of the hole you've dug yourself
into.

>>>>>> "In fact, of the total domestic consumption of cereal
>>>>>> grains
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *72% are used to feed livestock,**
>>>>>> ============================
>>>>>Too bad you still haven't proved him right.
>>>>
>>>> 72% is more than half, which proves 'Sprang' was
>>>> right.
>>>>
>>>>>His statement was "America's crop production"
>>>>
>>>> He was referring to grain;
>>>> "It takes more grain to produce meat than to produce
>>>> grain. More than half of America's crop production
>>>> is fed to livestock."
>>>======================
>>>Nope.

>>
>> Yep. Your math is clearly very poor. Believe it or not,
>> 72% is "More than half ...", just like he said.
>> =======================

>Nope.


Half of something is 50% of it. More than half of something
over 50% of it. 72% of something is more than half of it,
meaning "Sprang" was right and you're incredibly poor in
basic math.

  #45 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Derek" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:22:53 GMT, "rick" > wrote:
>>"Derek" > wrote in message
>>news
>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 01:46:55 GMT, "rick" >
>>> wrote:
>>>>"Derek" > wrote in message
m...
>>>>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:00:31 GMT, "rick" >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>"Derek" > wrote in message
>>>>>>news:vcn271he0dlgho7o6p92jork0v1t40pmsf@4ax. com...
>>>>>>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:41:15 GMT, "rick" >
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>"Derek" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>>news:qe0171hrath22f0hon7orfp15griq2cl7h@4a x.com...
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:49:18 GMT, "rick"
>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>"Derek" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>news:i2tu61ps07bl2cfa46t068s0ire64nq2qe@ 4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:40:02 -0400, Sprang
>>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>In article
as.earthlink.net>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>"rick" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [..]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > It takes more grain to produce meat than to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > produce
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > grain. More than half of America's crop
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > production
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > is fed to livestock.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ======================
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ROTLMAO You have proof of that claim, right?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>I guess I'll have to do the research for you
>>>>>>>>>>>>tomorrow,
>>>>>>>>>>>>meat industry apologist. It has been a while since I
>>>>>>>>>>>>looked into that, but that's the number I remember.
>>>>>>>>>>>>Or
>>>>>>>>>>>>do you already have an idea of how much grain in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>U.S goes to livestock?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> '..according to FAO (199lc) the cereal grains
>>>>>>>>>>> consumed
>>>>>>>>>>> directly per capita are just a small fraction of the
>>>>>>>>>>> total per capita cereal grains consumption (directly
>>>>>>>>>>> and indirectly) in the United States. In fact, of the
>>>>>>>>>>> total
>>>>>>>>>>> domestic consumption of cereal grains 72% are used to
>>>>>>>>>>> feed livestock, 11% are for direct human consumption,
>>>>>>>>>>> and the remaining 17% are used by the food industry
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> produce different food products and alcoholic
>>>>>>>>>>> beverages.
>>>>>>>>>>> Therefore, almost 90% of the cereal grains are
>>>>>>>>>>> consumed
>>>>>>>>>>> indirectly by Americans. A similar pattern occurs for
>>>>>>>>>>> soybeans and oil seeds. A large fraction of soybeans
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> used for feeding livestock, either directly or in the
>>>>>>>>>>> form of
>>>>>>>>>>> by-products (bean meal) of soy oil production, and in
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> food industry to produce soy oil for human
>>>>>>>>>>> consumption.'
>>>>>>>>>>> http://dieoff.org/page55.htm
>>>>>>>>>>=================
>>>>>>>>>>I never thought I'd ever say this, but thanks twit.
>>>>>>>>>>You
>>>>>>>>>>just proved him wrong....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rather, those percentages prove you wrong and 'Sprang'
>>>>>>>>> right. Learn to read.
>>>>>>>>=================
>>>>>>>>I have, maybe you should learn. He claimed that 90% of
>>>>>>>>all
>>>>>>>>crops are ed to animals.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Look at the top of this post and you'll see that he
>>>>>>> claimed, "More than half of America's crop production
>>>>>>> is fed to livestock.", not 90%, liar Ricky, As it turns
>>>>>>> out, his 51% guess is 21% shy of the actual 72%
>>>>>>> given by David Pimentel Cornell University and Mario
>>>>>>> Giampietro Isiituto Nazionale dell; Nutrizione, Rome.
>>>>>>===============
>>>>>>Yeah, I picked the 90 from your idiocy.
>>>>>
>>>>> You don't get to blame me for your errors and subsequent
>>>>> lies, Ricky.
>>>
>>> When are you going to explain why you lied? He never
>>> made the claim of 90%, like you insisted he did.

>
> If you're not prepared to explain why you lied about
> "Sprang's" claim, why should anyone believe a word
> you write?
>
>>>>>>You still haven't proven him right, killer..
>>>>>
>>>>> He claimed that, "More than half of America's crop
>>>>> production is fed to livestock.", and the evidence
>>>>> which gives a 72 % is exactly as he said: more than
>>>>> half, which proves he was right.
>>>>========================
>>>>Still have comprehension problems, don't you fool.
>>>>Your claim is that 72% of grains are fed to animals.
>>>
>>> Which supports his claim of "More than half ..." Look
>>> again at the evidence I produced above.

>
> My guess is that the evidence which support his claim
> is just too hard for you to refute, and that's why you lied
> about his claim.
>
>>>> He claimed more than half of all crops are fed to animals.
>>>
>>> And he was correct to do so, according to the evidence
>>> I produced. You, however, lied by insisting, " He claimed
>>> that 90% of all crops are ed to animals."
>>> =====================

>>No, he wasn't correct, and neither are your attempts...

>
> Evidence shows that he was correct. More than half
> the grain he was referring to in his paragraph DOES go
> to feed livestock.
>
>>>>Too bad you are too stupid to even read, eh killer?
>>>
>>> Don't you realise that 72% is "More than half..." yet
>>> Rick?

>>================
>>Sure

>
> Then you have no option but to concede and take on
> board that more than half the grain "Sprang" referred
> to in his paragraph at the top of this page goes to feed
> livestock.
>
>>>> This is very basic
>>>>> stuff Rick, and if you can't admit you're wrong on
>>>>> something as simple and as obvious as this, then it's
>>>>> certain you'll never admit to being wrong about
>>>>> anything, even when forced to look at the facts.
>>>>====================
>>>>You haven't presented the facts to prove what he said.
>>>
>>> You're lying again. Just look above and read what I
>>> brought here as evidence to prove it.
>>> =================

>>No, you haven't, killer.

>
> It's there, exactly where I put it, and hiding from it
> doesn't help you out of the hole you've dug yourself
> into.
>
>>>>>>> "In fact, of the total domestic consumption of cereal
>>>>>>> grains
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *72% are used to feed livestock,**
>>>>>>> ============================
>>>>>>Too bad you still haven't proved him right.
>>>>>
>>>>> 72% is more than half, which proves 'Sprang' was
>>>>> right.
>>>>>
>>>>>>His statement was "America's crop production"
>>>>>
>>>>> He was referring to grain;
>>>>> "It takes more grain to produce meat than to produce
>>>>> grain. More than half of America's crop production
>>>>> is fed to livestock."
>>>>======================
>>>>Nope.
>>>
>>> Yep. Your math is clearly very poor. Believe it or not,
>>> 72% is "More than half ...", just like he said.
>>> =======================

>>Nope.

>
> Half of something is 50% of it. More than half of something
> over 50% of it. 72% of something is more than half of it,
> meaning "Sprang" was right and you're incredibly poor in
> basic math.

====================
No, you've proven that your english comprehension is bad.


>





  #46 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Derek" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:22:53 GMT, "rick" > wrote:
>>"Derek" > wrote in message
>>news
>>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 01:46:55 GMT, "rick" >
>>> wrote:
>>>>"Derek" > wrote in message
m...
>>>>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:00:31 GMT, "rick" >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>"Derek" > wrote in message
>>>>>>news:vcn271he0dlgho7o6p92jork0v1t40pmsf@4ax. com...
>>>>>>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:41:15 GMT, "rick" >
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>"Derek" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>>news:qe0171hrath22f0hon7orfp15griq2cl7h@4a x.com...
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:49:18 GMT, "rick"
>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>"Derek" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>news:i2tu61ps07bl2cfa46t068s0ire64nq2qe@ 4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:40:02 -0400, Sprang
>>>>>>>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>In article
as.earthlink.net>,
>>>>>>>>>>>>"rick" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [..]
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > It takes more grain to produce meat than to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > produce
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > grain. More than half of America's crop
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > production
>>>>>>>>>>>>> > is fed to livestock.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ======================
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ROTLMAO You have proof of that claim, right?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>I guess I'll have to do the research for you
>>>>>>>>>>>>tomorrow,
>>>>>>>>>>>>meat industry apologist. It has been a while since I
>>>>>>>>>>>>looked into that, but that's the number I remember.
>>>>>>>>>>>>Or
>>>>>>>>>>>>do you already have an idea of how much grain in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>U.S goes to livestock?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> '..according to FAO (199lc) the cereal grains
>>>>>>>>>>> consumed
>>>>>>>>>>> directly per capita are just a small fraction of the
>>>>>>>>>>> total per capita cereal grains consumption (directly
>>>>>>>>>>> and indirectly) in the United States. In fact, of the
>>>>>>>>>>> total
>>>>>>>>>>> domestic consumption of cereal grains 72% are used to
>>>>>>>>>>> feed livestock, 11% are for direct human consumption,
>>>>>>>>>>> and the remaining 17% are used by the food industry
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> produce different food products and alcoholic
>>>>>>>>>>> beverages.
>>>>>>>>>>> Therefore, almost 90% of the cereal grains are
>>>>>>>>>>> consumed
>>>>>>>>>>> indirectly by Americans. A similar pattern occurs for
>>>>>>>>>>> soybeans and oil seeds. A large fraction of soybeans
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> used for feeding livestock, either directly or in the
>>>>>>>>>>> form of
>>>>>>>>>>> by-products (bean meal) of soy oil production, and in
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> food industry to produce soy oil for human
>>>>>>>>>>> consumption.'
>>>>>>>>>>> http://dieoff.org/page55.htm
>>>>>>>>>>=================
>>>>>>>>>>I never thought I'd ever say this, but thanks twit.
>>>>>>>>>>You
>>>>>>>>>>just proved him wrong....
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rather, those percentages prove you wrong and 'Sprang'
>>>>>>>>> right. Learn to read.
>>>>>>>>=================
>>>>>>>>I have, maybe you should learn. He claimed that 90% of
>>>>>>>>all
>>>>>>>>crops are ed to animals.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Look at the top of this post and you'll see that he
>>>>>>> claimed, "More than half of America's crop production
>>>>>>> is fed to livestock.", not 90%, liar Ricky, As it turns
>>>>>>> out, his 51% guess is 21% shy of the actual 72%
>>>>>>> given by David Pimentel Cornell University and Mario
>>>>>>> Giampietro Isiituto Nazionale dell; Nutrizione, Rome.
>>>>>>===============
>>>>>>Yeah, I picked the 90 from your idiocy.
>>>>>
>>>>> You don't get to blame me for your errors and subsequent
>>>>> lies, Ricky.
>>>
>>> When are you going to explain why you lied? He never
>>> made the claim of 90%, like you insisted he did.

>
> If you're not prepared to explain why you lied about
> "Sprang's" claim, why should anyone believe a word
> you write?
>
>>>>>>You still haven't proven him right, killer..
>>>>>
>>>>> He claimed that, "More than half of America's crop
>>>>> production is fed to livestock.", and the evidence
>>>>> which gives a 72 % is exactly as he said: more than
>>>>> half, which proves he was right.
>>>>========================
>>>>Still have comprehension problems, don't you fool.
>>>>Your claim is that 72% of grains are fed to animals.
>>>
>>> Which supports his claim of "More than half ..." Look
>>> again at the evidence I produced above.

>
> My guess is that the evidence which support his claim
> is just too hard for you to refute, and that's why you lied
> about his claim.
>
>>>> He claimed more than half of all crops are fed to animals.
>>>
>>> And he was correct to do so, according to the evidence
>>> I produced. You, however, lied by insisting, " He claimed
>>> that 90% of all crops are ed to animals."
>>> =====================

>>No, he wasn't correct, and neither are your attempts...

>
> Evidence shows that he was correct. More than half
> the grain he was referring to in his paragraph DOES go
> to feed livestock.
>
>>>>Too bad you are too stupid to even read, eh killer?
>>>
>>> Don't you realise that 72% is "More than half..." yet
>>> Rick?

>>================
>>Sure

>
> Then you have no option but to concede and take on
> board that more than half the grain "Sprang" referred
> to in his paragraph at the top of this page goes to feed
> livestock.
>
>>>> This is very basic
>>>>> stuff Rick, and if you can't admit you're wrong on
>>>>> something as simple and as obvious as this, then it's
>>>>> certain you'll never admit to being wrong about
>>>>> anything, even when forced to look at the facts.
>>>>====================
>>>>You haven't presented the facts to prove what he said.
>>>
>>> You're lying again. Just look above and read what I
>>> brought here as evidence to prove it.
>>> =================

>>No, you haven't, killer.

>
> It's there, exactly where I put it, and hiding from it
> doesn't help you out of the hole you've dug yourself
> into.
>
>>>>>>> "In fact, of the total domestic consumption of cereal
>>>>>>> grains
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *72% are used to feed livestock,**
>>>>>>> ============================
>>>>>>Too bad you still haven't proved him right.
>>>>>
>>>>> 72% is more than half, which proves 'Sprang' was
>>>>> right.
>>>>>
>>>>>>His statement was "America's crop production"
>>>>>
>>>>> He was referring to grain;
>>>>> "It takes more grain to produce meat than to produce
>>>>> grain. More than half of America's crop production
>>>>> is fed to livestock."
>>>>======================
>>>>Nope.
>>>
>>> Yep. Your math is clearly very poor. Believe it or not,
>>> 72% is "More than half ...", just like he said.
>>> =======================

>>Nope.

>
> Half of something is 50% of it. More than half of something
> over 50% of it. 72% of something is more than half of it,
> meaning "Sprang" was right and you're incredibly poor in
> basic math.

====================
No, you've proven that your english comprehension is bad.


>



  #47 (permalink)   Report Post  
Derek
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:03:43 GMT, "rick" > wrote:
>"Derek" > wrote in message ...
>> On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:22:53 GMT, "rick" > wrote:
>>>"Derek" > wrote in message news

[..]
>>>>>> He was referring to grain;
>>>>>> "It takes more grain to produce meat than to produce
>>>>>> grain. More than half of America's crop production
>>>>>> is fed to livestock."
>>>>>======================
>>>>>Nope.
>>>>
>>>> Yep. Your math is clearly very poor. Believe it or not,
>>>> 72% is "More than half ...", just like he said.
>>>> =======================
>>>Nope.

>>
>> Half of something is 50% of it. More than half of something
>> over 50% of it. 72% of something is more than half of it,
>> meaning "Sprang" was right and you're incredibly poor in
>> basic math.

>====================
>No


Yes, Rick, and if it weren't for the fact that you use a
keyboard while *trying* to discuss these issues, you would
be utterly incomprehensible, as I've no doubt at all that your
handwriting is that of a child's in primary school.
  #48 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
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> Yes, Rick, and if it weren't for the fact that you use a
> keyboard while *trying* to discuss these issues, you would
> be utterly incomprehensible, as I've no doubt at all that your
> handwriting is that of a child's in primary school.


Potent observation.

Now let me get this straight, this all-out unmitigated sheepish attack
on anything vegan and veganism was spurred by a link to this:

http://www.lessmeat.com

The meatie-centric ill informed children here must have something
better to do. But i could be wrong.

i am a vegan, but i find this attack posturing of the meatie apologists
here quite absurd.

  #49 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default

i am referring to rick and Dutch here. Their by the book attacks and
hollow ruminations seem at best spineless, pointless and soft.

  #50 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default

i am referring to rick and Dutch here. Their by the book attacks and
hollow ruminations seem at best spineless, pointless and soft.



  #51 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


> wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Yes, Rick, and if it weren't for the fact that you use a
>> keyboard while *trying* to discuss these issues, you would
>> be utterly incomprehensible, as I've no doubt at all that your
>> handwriting is that of a child's in primary school.

>
> Potent observation.
>
> Now let me get this straight, this all-out unmitigated sheepish
> attack
> on anything vegan and veganism was spurred by a link to this:
>
> http://www.lessmeat.com
>
> The meatie-centric ill informed children here must have
> something
> better to do. But i could be wrong.
>
> i am a vegan, but i find this attack posturing of the meatie
> apologists
> here quite absurd.

====================
Of course you do. Your brain is mush, so what else could you do?

And, no, you are not vegan. I you really were you wouldn't be
here on usenet, killer.


>



  #52 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


> wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Yes, Rick, and if it weren't for the fact that you use a
>> keyboard while *trying* to discuss these issues, you would
>> be utterly incomprehensible, as I've no doubt at all that your
>> handwriting is that of a child's in primary school.

>
> Potent observation.
>
> Now let me get this straight, this all-out unmitigated sheepish
> attack
> on anything vegan and veganism was spurred by a link to this:
>
> http://www.lessmeat.com
>
> The meatie-centric ill informed children here must have
> something
> better to do. But i could be wrong.
>
> i am a vegan, but i find this attack posturing of the meatie
> apologists
> here quite absurd.

====================
Of course you do. Your brain is mush, so what else could you do?

And, no, you are not vegan. I you really were you wouldn't be
here on usenet, killer.


>



  #53 (permalink)   Report Post  
Derek
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 30 Apr 2005 15:25:19 -0700, wrote:

>> Yes, Rick, and if it weren't for the fact that you use a
>> keyboard while *trying* to discuss these issues, you would
>> be utterly incomprehensible, as I've no doubt at all that your
>> handwriting is that of a child's in primary school.

>
>Potent observation.


More a snide remark, really, but probably true. Without
the convenience of a keyboard, Rick would certainly
be utterly incomprehensible.

>Now let me get this straight, this all-out unmitigated sheepish attack
>on anything vegan and veganism was spurred by a link to this:
>
>
http://www.lessmeat.com

In a broad sense, yes, so the meatie-centric tent do their
best to address that death imbalance by referring their
critics to the collateral deaths of small animals associated
with the production of their own food: veg. Meatarians
kill vicariously for food, and their task is to force through
the proposition that vegans kill vicariously for food as well.

>The meatie-centric ill informed children here must have something
>better to do. But i could be wrong.
>
>i am a vegan, but i find this attack posturing of the meatie apologists
>here quite absurd.


Tactically, yes.
  #54 (permalink)   Report Post  
Derek
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 30 Apr 2005 15:25:19 -0700, wrote:

>> Yes, Rick, and if it weren't for the fact that you use a
>> keyboard while *trying* to discuss these issues, you would
>> be utterly incomprehensible, as I've no doubt at all that your
>> handwriting is that of a child's in primary school.

>
>Potent observation.


More a snide remark, really, but probably true. Without
the convenience of a keyboard, Rick would certainly
be utterly incomprehensible.

>Now let me get this straight, this all-out unmitigated sheepish attack
>on anything vegan and veganism was spurred by a link to this:
>
>
http://www.lessmeat.com

In a broad sense, yes, so the meatie-centric tent do their
best to address that death imbalance by referring their
critics to the collateral deaths of small animals associated
with the production of their own food: veg. Meatarians
kill vicariously for food, and their task is to force through
the proposition that vegans kill vicariously for food as well.

>The meatie-centric ill informed children here must have something
>better to do. But i could be wrong.
>
>i am a vegan, but i find this attack posturing of the meatie apologists
>here quite absurd.


Tactically, yes.
  #55 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


> wrote in message
ups.com...
>i am referring to rick and Dutch here. Their by the book attacks
>and
> hollow ruminations seem at best spineless, pointless and soft.

=====================
Really? Then refute anything we've said, killer. If you want
by-the-book recitations then the web-site posted isthe perfect
example, fool. It's a mish-mash of lys told over and over by the
wannabe vegan brain-dead.



>





  #56 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


> wrote in message
ups.com...
>i am referring to rick and Dutch here. Their by the book attacks
>and
> hollow ruminations seem at best spineless, pointless and soft.

=====================
Really? Then refute anything we've said, killer. If you want
by-the-book recitations then the web-site posted isthe perfect
example, fool. It's a mish-mash of lys told over and over by the
wannabe vegan brain-dead.



>



  #57 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


> wrote in message
ups.com...
>i am referring to rick and Dutch here. Their by the book attacks
>and
> hollow ruminations seem at best spineless, pointless and soft.

=====================
Really? Then refute anything we've said, killer. If you want
by-the-book recitations then the web-site posted isthe perfect
example, fool. It's a mish-mash of lys told over and over by the
wannabe vegan brain-dead.



>



  #58 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dutch
 
Posts: n/a
Default


> wrote

>>Numbers don't make an argument. Matheny is a master of
>>the strawman. Matheny is not a scientist and has done no research.

>
> Very well. I will put it over on sci.skeptic myself, and crosslink it
> to here, and we shall see what we shall see.....
>
> and you will end up crying in the corner.


I'm still waiting...


  #59 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dutch
 
Posts: n/a
Default


> wrote

>>Numbers don't make an argument. Matheny is a master of
>>the strawman. Matheny is not a scientist and has done no research.

>
> Very well. I will put it over on sci.skeptic myself, and crosslink it
> to here, and we shall see what we shall see.....
>
> and you will end up crying in the corner.


I'm still waiting...


  #60 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dutch
 
Posts: n/a
Default

> wrote
> On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:33:03 -0700, "Dutch" > wrote:
>
>>
>>>http://home.datawest.net/esn-recover...re%20facts%20p

>>resented
>>> >19. Ignore facts presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a
>>> >variant of the 'play dumb' rule.
>>>
>>> Ignores request for facts,

>>
>>Rule 19 of disinformation, 'Demand impossible proofs'

>
> Let's take this over to sci.sketpic shall we? Then you can see
> how they will tear you to shreds over there. Whimpering over
> demds for proof just doesn't cut it. I double dare you.
>
>>
>>No it isn't, it is on me to present a reasonable case supported by
>>facts. I have done so.

>
> You have not.


Fraid so.

>>
>>> If you cannot prove it then it's just all fluff.

>>
>>Wrong, this is a debate about ethics, not a counting game.

>
> Dude, I am not a vegan. I am a vegetarian.


Dude?

>>
>>> However, that article you linked to also had the link to its own
>>> rebuttal, which did present some hard numbers.

>>
>>Numbers don't make an argument. Matheny is a master of
>>the strawman. Matheny is not a scientist and has done no research.

>
> Very well. I will put it over on sci.skeptic myself, and crosslink it
> to here, and we shall see what we shall see.....
>
> and you will end up crying in the corner.


Bring it on, "dude".


>>> In other words, the rebuttal article was solid, and the one you
>>> quoted was ridiculous.

>>
>>In other words, Davis research gores your ox. The research reveals
>>that machine harvesting decimates populations of mammals, and it
>>destroys populations of amphibians and insects. It does not even
>>discuss the effects of spraying, which are even more harmful. These
>>facts should cause any thoughtful person who has embraced the
>>"vegan ethic" to re-assess their ethical model. The curious thing is
>>that it seldom does, it causes people like dropout Matheny and you
>>to launch campaigns of denial, disinformation and strawmen.
>>

>
> The use of the term "populations" seems a bit of an overstatement,


Does it really?

> intended to maximize the lack of numbers or research you have to back
> up anyhitng you say.


Do you always whiff off this badly? When are you going to make a post to
sci.skeptics?




  #61 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dutch
 
Posts: n/a
Default

> wrote
> On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:33:03 -0700, "Dutch" > wrote:
>
>>
>>>http://home.datawest.net/esn-recover...re%20facts%20p

>>resented
>>> >19. Ignore facts presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a
>>> >variant of the 'play dumb' rule.
>>>
>>> Ignores request for facts,

>>
>>Rule 19 of disinformation, 'Demand impossible proofs'

>
> Let's take this over to sci.sketpic shall we? Then you can see
> how they will tear you to shreds over there. Whimpering over
> demds for proof just doesn't cut it. I double dare you.
>
>>
>>No it isn't, it is on me to present a reasonable case supported by
>>facts. I have done so.

>
> You have not.


Fraid so.

>>
>>> If you cannot prove it then it's just all fluff.

>>
>>Wrong, this is a debate about ethics, not a counting game.

>
> Dude, I am not a vegan. I am a vegetarian.


Dude?

>>
>>> However, that article you linked to also had the link to its own
>>> rebuttal, which did present some hard numbers.

>>
>>Numbers don't make an argument. Matheny is a master of
>>the strawman. Matheny is not a scientist and has done no research.

>
> Very well. I will put it over on sci.skeptic myself, and crosslink it
> to here, and we shall see what we shall see.....
>
> and you will end up crying in the corner.


Bring it on, "dude".


>>> In other words, the rebuttal article was solid, and the one you
>>> quoted was ridiculous.

>>
>>In other words, Davis research gores your ox. The research reveals
>>that machine harvesting decimates populations of mammals, and it
>>destroys populations of amphibians and insects. It does not even
>>discuss the effects of spraying, which are even more harmful. These
>>facts should cause any thoughtful person who has embraced the
>>"vegan ethic" to re-assess their ethical model. The curious thing is
>>that it seldom does, it causes people like dropout Matheny and you
>>to launch campaigns of denial, disinformation and strawmen.
>>

>
> The use of the term "populations" seems a bit of an overstatement,


Does it really?

> intended to maximize the lack of numbers or research you have to back
> up anyhitng you say.


Do you always whiff off this badly? When are you going to make a post to
sci.skeptics?


  #62 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default


rick wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >i am referring to rick and Dutch here. Their by the book attacks
> >and
> > hollow ruminations seem at best spineless, pointless and soft.

> =====================
> Really? Then refute anything we've said, killer. If you want
> by-the-book recitations then the web-site posted isthe perfect
> example, fool. It's a mish-mash of lys told over and over by the
> wannabe vegan brain-dead.
>


Alright then here is your rather silly refutation. You seem to keep
bringing up a rather pointless idea, namely that certain animals
"might" get killed or displaced due to current farming practices. This
may or may not be true, and you don't cite numbers, and for good
reason.

Even though some of these animal deaths might truly be avoidable, it is
not the same as eating the flesh of an animal killed only to satisfy
some urgent need to eat meat.

You are trying to paint the act of eating brown rice, other grains and
soy products as morbid and cavalier exercises in dietary excess.

You couldn't be more wrong.

Simply stated - i'll pass. You don't seem to have the intellectual
faculties to follow a simple argument, or parse a simple sentence. And
if your dull attacks are any indication your derived and irrelevant
constructions are wholly pointless and spineless, and they are, then
there isn't much to refute.

  #63 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default

> It's a mish-mash of [lies] told over and over by the
> wannabe vegan brain-dead.


Since you appear to be under the impression that i am not a vegan, i'm
sure you won't mind if i play devil's advocate here.

  #64 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default

> It's a mish-mash of [lies] told over and over by the
> wannabe vegan brain-dead.


Since you appear to be under the impression that i am not a vegan, i'm
sure you won't mind if i play devil's advocate here.

  #65 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default

wrote:
<...>
> Even though some of these animal deaths might truly be avoidable, it is
> not the same as eating the flesh of an animal killed only to satisfy
> some urgent need to eat meat.


If you think killing one animal for food is wrong, why do you so
non-chalantly turn an eye to the THOUSANDS of dead animals for your
"vegan" food SO LONG AS THOSE ANIMALS AREN'T TO SATISFY WHAT YOU CALL
"THE SAME URGENT NEED" TO EAT?

Face it, clown, your diet causes animals to die. Rick's causes animals
to die. In reality, how the **** are you more ethical than he?

> You are trying to paint the act of eating brown rice, other grains and
> soy products as morbid and cavalier exercises in dietary excess.


They are morbid exercises. Quick example. You vegan activist morons trot
out feed:meat ratios all the time. Yet you're reflexively dismissive
when reminded that soy products, like tofu, require the same or greater
input per product yield. Yet you never say "don't eat tofu" or other
fake meats despite their wasteful yields -- more wasteful than certain
meats.

> You couldn't be more wrong.


He couldn't be more right. You're the one who's wrong.

> Simply stated - i'll pass.


Pussy.

> You don't seem to have the intellectual
> faculties to follow a simple argument, or parse a simple sentence.


He does, and he's already cut through your bullshit. You, otoh, don't
seem to have the ability to make a cogent argument that stands up to
reality -- so just keep bleating about "some urgent need to eat meat"
while your own diet kills more and more animals. Wasteful pig.

<...>


  #66 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default

wrote:
<...>
> Even though some of these animal deaths might truly be avoidable, it is
> not the same as eating the flesh of an animal killed only to satisfy
> some urgent need to eat meat.


If you think killing one animal for food is wrong, why do you so
non-chalantly turn an eye to the THOUSANDS of dead animals for your
"vegan" food SO LONG AS THOSE ANIMALS AREN'T TO SATISFY WHAT YOU CALL
"THE SAME URGENT NEED" TO EAT?

Face it, clown, your diet causes animals to die. Rick's causes animals
to die. In reality, how the **** are you more ethical than he?

> You are trying to paint the act of eating brown rice, other grains and
> soy products as morbid and cavalier exercises in dietary excess.


They are morbid exercises. Quick example. You vegan activist morons trot
out feed:meat ratios all the time. Yet you're reflexively dismissive
when reminded that soy products, like tofu, require the same or greater
input per product yield. Yet you never say "don't eat tofu" or other
fake meats despite their wasteful yields -- more wasteful than certain
meats.

> You couldn't be more wrong.


He couldn't be more right. You're the one who's wrong.

> Simply stated - i'll pass.


Pussy.

> You don't seem to have the intellectual
> faculties to follow a simple argument, or parse a simple sentence.


He does, and he's already cut through your bullshit. You, otoh, don't
seem to have the ability to make a cogent argument that stands up to
reality -- so just keep bleating about "some urgent need to eat meat"
while your own diet kills more and more animals. Wasteful pig.

<...>
  #67 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default

usual suspect wrote:
> If you think killing one animal for food is wrong,


i do. That's why i'm a vegan.

> why do you so non-chalantly turn an eye to the THOUSANDS
> of dead animals for your "vegan" food


Examples please - instead of these wild-eyed and hollow accusations.

> SO LONG AS THOSE ANIMALS AREN'T TO SATISFY WHAT YOU CALL
> "THE SAME URGENT NEED" TO EAT?


That sentence fragment does not make any sense, but at least i'm not
eating the flesh of a dead animal for my next meal. That's the
difference.

> your diet causes animals to die.


Again, examples please.

> In reality, how the **** are you more ethical than he?


i never mentioned ethics, but i'm glad you did. My diet is more
compassionate than yours is and hence vegans are more ethical than you.
Trust me.

> They are morbid exercises.


Eating brown rice and other grains is a morbid exercise? Do you realize
what you are trying to say here? Maybe you could tell me which is the
more morbid of the two, eating a bowl of brown rice or eating a banana
for desert.

> Pussy.
> Face it, clown,
> cut through your bullshit.
> Wasteful pig.


Such grammar. Such idiocy. i do find it hard to take you seriously.
*sigh*

i supposed you missed these statements made by Sprang which strike at
the heart of the matter.

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...e=source&hl=en

> The idea of collateral deaths in agriculture is not fluff,
> it's a dagger in the heart of radical veganism.


It takes more grain to produce meat than to produce grain.

More than half of America's crop production is fed to livestock.

Mono-culture crop production feeds most livestock.

  #68 (permalink)   Report Post  
CM1
 
Posts: n/a
Default

This is off TOPIC,we are talking about BUMS!!!There are groups where
this belongs but this isn't one of them.

  #69 (permalink)   Report Post  
CM1
 
Posts: n/a
Default

This is off TOPIC,we are talking about BUMS!!!There are groups where
this belongs but this isn't one of them.

  #70 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default

wrote:
>>If you think killing one animal for food is wrong,

>
> i do.


No, you do not.

> That's why i'm a vegan.


Wrong again. You're a vegan because you're too mentally and morally weak
to do things that actually matter; you prefer mindless pontificating to
practicing what you preach. Keep reading.

>>why do you so non-chalantly turn an eye to the THOUSANDS
>>of dead animals for your "vegan" food

>
> Examples please - instead of these wild-eyed and hollow accusations.


Mechanical planting and harvesting of crops causes multiple animal
deaths, often called "collateral deaths" (or CDs) in these groups. The
same is true with respect to application of pesticides. Animals are
killed in the transportation and storage (again, pesticides) of foods.
Many of these deaths are not accidental to food production, they're
fully intentional.

>>SO LONG AS THOSE ANIMALS AREN'T TO SATISFY WHAT YOU CALL
>>"THE SAME URGENT NEED" TO EAT?

>
> That sentence fragment does not make any sense,


The whole question was perfectly sensible did before you edited it in
midstream, dumb ass:
If you think killing one animal for food is wrong, why do you so
non-chalantly turn an eye to the THOUSANDS of dead animals for
your "vegan" food SO LONG AS THOSE ANIMALS AREN'T TO SATISFY
WHAT YOU CALL "THE SAME URGENT NEED" TO EAT?

IOW, why do you object to the death of one animal -- which results in
thousands of servings -- but not to the deaths of thousands of animals
which don't end up on plates?

I know the answer. I just want to know if you're honest enough to admit
your misanthropy and your dogmatic brand of authoritarianism that nobody
should ever eat, think, or believe differently than you do.

> but at least i'm not
> eating the flesh of a dead animal for my next meal. That's the
> difference.


And what difference is that? Some sense of smug, false piety that one is
made holy by what goes in one's mouth?

>>your diet causes animals to die.

>
> Again, examples please.


Rice is grown in flooded fields. The fields are drained. Animals which
require a wet environment die or are killed off by predators. Animals
that don't require a wet environment are run over by combines. The same
is true for species affected intentionally or collaterally by
pesticides. And don't try to bullshit us about the use of pesticides:
organic farming allows the use of natural pesticides (just not the
synthetic ones). Those pesticides are every bit as lethal as the
synthetic ones, if not more so because of the additional applications
required for effectiveness.

The following section is from previous posts about the issue of organic
methods.
----------
Organic pesticides are as toxic as their synthetic counterparts, and
many of them are banned under the Rotterdam Convention:
The Convention has already been signed by 73 countries –
including Brazil – and ratified by 18. It will come into effect
once there are 50 signatory countries.The original products list
included 22 organic pesticides considered to be *highly toxic*...
http://www.nex.org.br/english/denuci...enenamento.htm

[Highly toxic meaning those organic pesticides affect non-target
species, including humans.]

An organic pesticide called Dichlorodiphenyl trichloroethane is banned
because of its pervasive toxicity. You probably have heard of it by its
initials: DDT.
http://www.epa.gov/history/publications/formative6.htm

[DDT was linked to the death of bald eagles, a non-target species.]

Organic pesticides kill fish:
While some organic pesticides may be nontoxic or are only
slightly toxic to people, they may be very toxic to other
animals. For instance, *the organic pesticide ryania is very
toxic to fish*.
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm

[Fish are a non-target species.]

Organic pesticides kill a variety of *non-target species*, and foods
grown organically are not labeled "pesticide free":
Organic pesticides are used widely. Some are toxic. Rotenone
*kills fish*. Copper sulphate *kills many creatures*. In California,
an organic pesticide, sulphur, represents one-third of all
pesticide use. For obvious reasons, organic farmers don’t call
their produce "pesticide free."
http://www.ontariocorn.org/ocpmag/pestruth.html
See also:
http://www.hudson.org/index.cfm?fuse...etails&id=1677

Copper sulphate is more harmful to a variety of species than its
conventional counterpart:
Leake candidly criticized organic farmers for using nasty but
"natural" pesticides. "The use of copper and sulphur fungicide
sprays seems inconsistent with the claim that organic
agriculture is pesticide-free. On examination, the
*eco-toxicology of copper sulphate is undoubtedly more harmful
and persistent than its conventional counterpart, Mancozeb*."

Leake even provided a handy table, showing that the copper
sulphate used by organic farmers is *toxic to humans, very toxic
to earthworms and fish, moderately toxic to birds and harmful to
small mammals*.
http://www.cgfi.org/materials/articl...0/sep_8_00.htm

Effects of copper sulphate -- an organic pesticide/fungicide -- on a
variety of species including humans:
There have been reports of *human suicide* resulting from the
ingestion of gram quantities of this material.... Copper sulfate
is very toxic to fish.... Copper sulfate is *toxic to aquatic
invertebrates, such as crab, shrimp and oysters*. Based on data
on the potential hazards posed by this material to the
*slackwater darter, freshwater mussels, and Solano grass*, and in
an effort to *minimize exposure of endangered species* to this
material, applicators in some counties are required to consult
EPA endangered species bulletins before applying copper sulfate.
http://tinyurl.com/5y4hm

Organic pesticides ARE toxins:
Organic pesticide - not an oxymoron, because many organic
farmers use pesticides. A pesticide is any compound that kills
pests. So Rotenone is considered an organic pesticide even
though it does a fantastic job of killing pests and has
questionable safety. Rotenone is derived from the roots of
various South American legumes. It is a nerve poison that
paralyzes insects. Other organic pesticides include copper
compounds that can be *tough on other organisms and the
environment*. Pyrethrins are pesticides derived from the
pyrethrum daisies. They are a nerve poison that is effective on
a wide range of insects. *Pyrethrins are moderately toxic to
mammals* and *highly toxic to fish*. It is *illegal to apply them
around ponds or waterways*. So even though it says "organic", it
can still *pack a nasty punch*.
http://www.springledgefarm.com/glossary.htm

.....
Leake candidly criticized *organic farmers* for using nasty but
"natural" pesticides. "The use of copper and sulphur fungicide
sprays seems inconsistent with the claim that organic
agriculture is pesticide-free. On examination, the
*eco-toxicology of copper sulphate is undoubtedly more harmful
and persistent than its conventional counterpart, Mancozeb*."

Leake even provided a handy table, showing that the copper
sulphate *used by organic farmers* is *toxic to humans, very toxic
to earthworms and fish, moderately toxic to birds and harmful to
small mammals*.

-------------

>>In reality, how the **** are you more ethical than he?

>
> i never mentioned ethics,


You didn't have to. Your sanctimonious attitude spoke it for you.

> but i'm glad you did. My diet is more
> compassionate than yours is


No, especially with all the ignorance upon which you base your diet (an
animal killed by a combine or from pesticide is still a dead animal,
whether you eat it or not). For the record, even though what I put in my
body is none of your business, my diet is pretty much just like yours
with the exception of a few pieces of fish over the last few months. I
don't fret over micrograms of dairy or other things that might end up in
my food because of some conspicuous ingredient. Other than that, my diet
consists of whole grains, legumes, and fresh produce.

> and hence vegans are more ethical than you.


Liar. Vegans are misanthropes. Food doesn't make one ethical. Never has,
never will.

> Trust me.


No. Go **** yourself.

>>They are morbid exercises.

>
> Eating brown rice and other grains is a morbid exercise?


Yes, especially if your goal is fewer dead animals. Of course, you've
already demonstrated that you count only animals on plates rather than
assessing diets on the basis of how many animals are actually killed in
the course of food production. If the you were open-minded about the
latter, you'd have to consider diets that include meat -- particularly
from large grazed ruminants. One large ruminant is thousands of meals.
One field of brown rice or other grain is thousands of dead animals.

Which is greater -- one or one-thousand?

> Do you realize what you are trying to say here?


I realize what I *am* saying.

> Maybe you could tell me which is the
> more morbid of the two, eating a bowl of brown rice or eating a banana
> for desert.


Dessert. Deserts are dry places.

Both of your examples are morbid as far as animal deaths go unless you
live in the tropics and raise your own bananas without organic or
conventional chemicals. I've already briefly described the conditions
for animals in a rice field; animals die throughout each course of rice
production.

Bananas are grown with tremendous input of chemicals, especially
pesticides, and are transported from the tropics. Such transportation,
whether by ship or plane, is dependent on fossil fuels. Those fossil
fuels contain more energy than the shipped fruit (is that efficient?),
and burning them emits carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases as well
as particulates which can increase rates of cancer and other diseases.

So you tell me which is better from whatever standpoint you want to take
-- best for the animals, best for the planet, best for the people.

>>Pussy.
>>Face it, clown,
>>cut through your bullshit.
>>Wasteful pig.

>
> Such grammar.


My grammar is immaculate; your editing of the above (without noting it)
is worse than the choice of language which apparently offends you. I'm
glad you have something upon which you can hang your argument since it
won't be the facts.

> Such idiocy. i do find it hard to take you seriously.


Do you think I care?

> *sigh*


Drama queen.

> i supposed


While you're on the subject of grammar, perhaps you can sort out your
noun-verb agreement. Or must I do everything?

> you missed these statements made by Sprang which strike at
> the heart of the matter.


No, I didn't miss them and, to be honest, they didn't get to the heart
of the matter. Perhaps you're the one not paying attention to the following:

1. Rick's diet includes grass-fed beef, not grain-fed. Thus, the part
about grains and monoculturing is not apropos to dealing with his diet.
2. I recommend grass-fed beef, bison, wild game, fish, and the like as
sustainable and more healthful alternatives to grain-fed livestock. Not
only do those animals NOT eat monocultured grains, their flesh is richer
in omega-3 fatty acids and lower in saturated fats than their grain-fed
cousins.

> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...e=source&hl=en
>
>>The idea of collateral deaths in agriculture is not fluff,
>>it's a dagger in the heart of radical veganism.

>
> It takes more grain to produce meat than to produce grain.


No, it doesn't -- you city slicker vegans just don't realize that not
all grain is suitable for human consumption. Animals aren't getting the
prime grain you get from your local co-op or Whole Foods. They're
getting the shit you'd never eat.

But let's address that point and compare meats that make better use of
input (feed) than vegan alternatives.

Animals like goats (which graze and can also benefit from grain feeds),
rabbits, and poultry (particularly chicken and turkeys) have high yields
for the amount of feed. It's in the realm of 2-5 pounds of feed for
every pound of meat depending on the species. You think that's wasteful?

Do you ever eat or recommend tofu, seitan, or TVP (or TVP-based foods)?
How wasteful are those products? I computed the yields of tofu and found
it to be three times higher than the above examples. Same with seitan
(wheat gluten). Since the yield of those products from their inputs (soy
or wheat, water, etc.) rivals that of meat -- using your inflated
numbers and ignoring sustainable options like wild game and grass-fed
beef, etc. -- why don't you speak out against them?

Again, I know the answer. Because the argument against waste is a red
herring. You object to the consumption of ANY meat, even if it doesn't
fit into the nifty little strawman you make.

> More than half of America's crop production is fed to livestock.


Not all livestock are fed grains. If that's your concern (and I know it
isn't), recommend grazed ruminants.

> Mono-culture crop production feeds most livestock.


It's also fed to ignorant vegans who think that monocultured crops are
completely bloodless. It's time for you to know the truth, so the truth
can set you free.


  #71 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> rick wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> >i am referring to rick and Dutch here. Their by the book
>> >attacks
>> >and
>> > hollow ruminations seem at best spineless, pointless and
>> > soft.

>> =====================
>> Really? Then refute anything we've said, killer. If you
>> want
>> by-the-book recitations then the web-site posted isthe perfect
>> example, fool. It's a mish-mash of lys told over and over by
>> the
>> wannabe vegan brain-dead.
>>

>
> Alright then here is your rather silly refutation.

===============
Still waiting....


You seem to keep
> bringing up a rather pointless idea, namely that certain
> animals
> "might" get killed or displaced due to current farming
> practices. This
> may or may not be true, and you don't cite numbers, and for
> good
> reason.

====================
Really? Guess you're too stupid too to know how to use your
computer to view/search past posts, eh hypocrite?

Here, this will keep you lips moving for awhile, killer...
Not all have to do with crops, but since veganism is not a diet,
the rest apply too, if you really care about animals....


Animals die.
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.html
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html
http://www.cgfi.org/materials/key_pu...oxic_Tools.pdf
http://www.ontarioprofessionals.com/organic.htm
http://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheets/HGIC2756.htm
http://www.biotech-info.net/deadly_chemicals.html
http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/4-2art1.htm
http://europa.eu.int/comm/environmen...ing_annex1.pdf




Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html


>
> Even though some of these animal deaths might truly be
> avoidable, it is
> not the same as eating the flesh of an animal killed only to
> satisfy
> some urgent need to eat meat.

=======================
So? How is purposely killing animals to keep your veggies clean,
cheap and convenient, and leaving them to rot, better?



>
> You are trying to paint the act of eating brown rice, other
> grains and
> soy products as morbid and cavalier exercises in dietary
> excess.

======================
Yes, as far as unnecessay animals deaths are concerned. But
then, like all usenet wannabe vegans you have proven that animals
really mean nothing to you.


>
> You couldn't be more wrong.

===============
Nope. I completely right. You are either totally ignorant of
where your food comes from, or delusional.


>
> Simply stated - i'll pass. You don't seem to have the
> intellectual
> faculties to follow a simple argument, or parse a simple
> sentence. And
> if your dull attacks are any indication your derived and
> irrelevant
> constructions are wholly pointless and spineless, and they are,
> then
> there isn't much to refute.

=================
Try again liitle one. As usual, when the vegan has to prove his
stupidity, then turn and run. Thanks for proving that point yet
again, killer.


>



  #72 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default

rick wrote:
<....>
>>You couldn't be more wrong.

>
> ===============
> Nope. I completely right. You are either totally ignorant of
> where your food comes from, or delusional.


Or deceitful.
  #73 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


> wrote in message
oups.com...
> usual suspect wrote:
>> If you think killing one animal for food is wrong,

>
> i do. That's why i'm a vegan.

===============
No, you're not. You prove that by posting to usenet, killer.


>
>> why do you so non-chalantly turn an eye to the THOUSANDS
>> of dead animals for your "vegan" food

>
> Examples please - instead of these wild-eyed and hollow
> accusations.

===========
See previous post. Why is it that vegans are so totally ignorant
when it comes to where their food comes from?


>
>> SO LONG AS THOSE ANIMALS AREN'T TO SATISFY WHAT YOU CALL
>> "THE SAME URGENT NEED" TO EAT?

>
> That sentence fragment does not make any sense, but at least
> i'm not
> eating the flesh of a dead animal for my next meal. That's the
> difference.

==============
So what? Just means you don't get all the nutrients you need
naturally. But then, you've already proven that you are
dependent on, and worship, the petro-chemical industry, eh
hypocrite?


>
>> your diet causes animals to die.

>
> Again, examples please.

==============
See previous post, killer. Why are you so stupid about your own
diet, killer?

>
>> In reality, how the **** are you more ethical than he?

>
> i never mentioned ethics, but i'm glad you did. My diet is more
> compassionate than yours is and hence vegans are more ethical
> than you.
> Trust me.

================
I don't. You're a liar and an ignorant killer. It's easy to
show that there are meat included diets that are ar better at
prtecting animals and the envirenment than most diets that usenet
vegans eat. Aterall, you've already proven that really saving
animals isn't your concern.


>
>> They are morbid exercises.

>
> Eating brown rice and other grains is a morbid exercise?

==============
In animals death and sufering? Yes.



Do you realize
> what you are trying to say here? Maybe you could tell me which
> is the
> more morbid of the two, eating a bowl of brown rice or eating a
> banana
> for desert.

====================
ROTFLMAO What a hoot!! Maybe you should finally do a little
research about how rice is grown, and about how bananas have
destroyed rain forests and coral reefs. You really are just too
stupid to play this game in your current condition, killer. Must
be your diet isn't providing all the nutrition that your 2
remaining braincells need.



>
>> Pussy.
>> Face it, clown,
>> cut through your bullshit.
>> Wasteful pig.

>
> Such grammar. Such idiocy. i do find it hard to take you
> seriously.
> *sigh*
>
> i supposed you missed these statements made by Sprang which
> strike at
> the heart of the matter.
>
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...e=source&hl=en

===============
LOL He said nothing...


>
>> The idea of collateral deaths in agriculture is not fluff,
>> it's a dagger in the heart of radical veganism.

>
> It takes more grain to produce meat than to produce grain.

==================
Typical ly from the vegan brainwashed. It takes exactly 0, zero,
nil, zilch, nada, NO grains to produce beef, stupid.


>
> More than half of America's crop production is fed to
> livestock.

=================
Another ly that you cannot back up. Twits just gave it a try,
and ailed miserably, as usual...


>
> Mono-culture crop production feeds most livestock.

==================
Hey, imagine that, it feeds YOU too, stupid. Only yours is
sprayed, treated and processed far more than what animals are
fed....


>



  #74 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


> wrote in message
oups.com...
>> It's a mish-mash of [lies] told over and over by the
>> wannabe vegan brain-dead.

>
> Since you appear to be under the impression that i am not a
> vegan, i'm
> sure you won't mind if i play devil's advocate here.

====================
Go right ahead, fool. I've already explained to you wht you are
NOT a vegan.

I notice you couldn't refute the brain-dead part though, eh
killer?


>



  #75 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> rick wrote:
> <....>
>>>You couldn't be more wrong.

>>
>> ===============
>> Nope. I completely right. You are either totally ignorant of
>> where your food comes from, or delusional.

>
> Or deceitful.

==================
Well, I take it as a given that vegans are liars. My bad, huh?





  #76 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dutch
 
Posts: n/a
Default


> wrote
> usual suspect wrote:
>> If you think killing one animal for food is wrong,

>
> i do. That's why i'm a vegan.
>
>> why do you so non-chalantly turn an eye to the THOUSANDS
>> of dead animals for your "vegan" food

>
> Examples please - instead of these wild-eyed and hollow accusations.


http://courses.ats.rochester.edu/nob...-LeastHarm.htm

HOW MANY ANIMALS OF THE FIELD WOULD DIE IF A VEGAN DIET WERE ADOPTED?

Animals living in and around agricultural fields are killed during field
activities and the greater the number of field activities, the greater the
number of field animals that die. A partial list of animals of the field in
the USA include opossum, rock dove, house sparrow, European starling, black
rat, Norway rat, house mouse, Chukar, gray partridge, ring-necked pheasant,
wild turkey, cottontail rabbit, gray-tailed vole, and numerous species of
amphibians (Edge, 2000). In addition, Edge (2000) says, "production of most
crops requires multiple field operations that may include plowing, disking,
harrowing, planting, cultivating, applying herbicides and pesticides as well
as harvesting." These practices have negative effects on the populations of
the animals living in the fields. For example, just one operation, the
"mowing of alfalfa caused a 50% decline in gray-tailed vole population"
(Edge, 2000). Although these examples represent crop production systems in
the USA, the concept is also valid for intensive crop production in any
country. Other studies have also examined the effect of agricultural
tillage practices on field animal populations (Johnson et al., 1991; Pollard
and Helton, 1970; Tew, Macdonald and Rands, 1992).


>
>> SO LONG AS THOSE ANIMALS AREN'T TO SATISFY WHAT YOU CALL
>> "THE SAME URGENT NEED" TO EAT?

>
> That sentence fragment does not make any sense, but at least i'm not
> eating the flesh of a dead animal for my next meal. That's the
> difference.


Exactly right. The primary difference is that you do not have animal parts
on your plate, but the commercial agriculture that supports you kills lots.

In other words, the difference is one of "appearance" rather than substance.

>> your diet causes animals to die.

>
> Again, examples please.


See above.

>> In reality, how the **** are you more ethical than he?

>
> i never mentioned ethics, but i'm glad you did. My diet is more
> compassionate than yours is and hence vegans are more ethical than you.


You have not even attempted to measure the deaths
associated with your diet, and you certainly do not
know the content of his. I wonder how you arrived
at such a sweeping conclusion?

> Trust me.


My father told me never to trust a man who says that.

>
>> They are morbid exercises.


> Eating brown rice and other grains is a morbid exercise? Do you realize
> what you are trying to say here? Maybe you could tell me which is the
> more morbid of the two, eating a bowl of brown rice or eating a banana
> for desert.


That's a tough call, rice and banana production are both
extremely high in collateral animal death.

>> Pussy.
>> Face it, clown,
>> cut through your bullshit.
>> Wasteful pig.

>
> Such grammar. Such idiocy. i do find it hard to take you seriously.
> *sigh*


You are incapable of taking anything seriously.

> i supposed you missed these statements made by Sprang which strike at
> the heart of the matter.
>
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...e=source&hl=en


There's nothing there that strikes the matter anywhere.

>> The idea of collateral deaths in agriculture is not fluff,
>> it's a dagger in the heart of radical veganism.


How true.

> It takes more grain to produce meat than to produce grain.


Grain is cheap and plentiful.

> More than half of America's crop production is fed to livestock.


Nobody else is buying it.

> Mono-culture crop production feeds most livestock.


A lot of meat is produced in ways that causes far
less death and suffering than the shrink-wrapped
and imported crap you buy at The Piggly Wiggly.

You are spouting half-baked rhetoric you read somewhere.


  #77 (permalink)   Report Post  
Rudy Canoza
 
Posts: n/a
Default

wrote:

> rick wrote:
>
> wrote in message
roups.com...
>>
>>>i am referring to rick and Dutch here. Their by the book attacks
>>>and
>>>hollow ruminations seem at best spineless, pointless and soft.

>>
>>=====================
>>Really? Then refute anything we've said, killer. If you want
>>by-the-book recitations then the web-site posted isthe perfect
>>example, fool. It's a mish-mash of lys told over and over by the
>>wannabe vegan brain-dead.
>>

>
>
> Alright then here is your rather silly refutation. You seem to keep
> bringing up a rather pointless idea, namely that certain animals
> "might" get killed or displaced due to current farming practices. This
> may or may not be true, and you don't cite numbers, and for good
> reason.


No one seriously disputes the fact of collateral deaths
in agricultural. A professor at Oreon State
University, Stephen Davis, has written a paper on the
topic, suggesting that CDs might mean a "vegan" diet is
not the lowest-death diet one might follow. There used
to be a rice farmer in Texas who participated here and
posted under the name "diderot", who wrote at length
about the types and (rough) numbers of animals that
were killed in the process of cultivating and
harvesting rice.

>
> Even though some of these animal deaths might truly be avoidable, it is
> not the same as eating the flesh of an animal killed only to satisfy
> some urgent need to eat meat.


It actually is much worse, because the meat eater
doesn't pretend that by NOT eating something, he has
thereby attained some state of virtue.

This is what every "vegan" does. They all begin by
committing a classical logical fallacy: the fallacy of
Denying the Antecedent:

if I eat meat, I cause animals to suffer and die

I do not eat meat;

therefore, I do not cause animals to suffer and die

But you DO cause animals to suffer and die: the
animals who are chopped to bits in the course of
producing vegetable crops, and the animals that are
deliberately killed around food storage facilities to
prevent loss due to eating and contamination.

The problem with "veganism" is that the stupid,
****witted rule - "don't consume animal parts" - is NOT
based on any legitimate moral principle. But the rule
is the totality of "veganism", and we clearly can see
that it does not lead to a zero-death outcome.

"vegans" next back away from their demonstrably false
claim that they don't kill animals, and actually make
their moral position worse, because they then engage in
a despicable, deceitful counting game. They claim that
although they do cause animal deaths, they cause fewer
of them than meat eaters. This is deceitful, because
they have never counted, and don't ever intend to
count. It is despicable because it makes perfectly
clear that what they are about is their self-exaltation
over others whom they demonized in the first place.

First of all, virtue is NEVER shown by means of a
comparison with others; no worthwhile philosophy of
ethics, at any stage in the history of philosophy, has
ever said that you are virtuous if you do less of some
bad thing than someone else. This is because virtue
consists SOLELY in adhering to some set of moral
principles - and we have already seen that "veganism"
has NO principle at its base.

We can further see why the counting game is invalid by
conducting this little thought experiment. Suppose you
cause 50 animal deaths a week, and your meat-eating
neighbor causes 100. You strut around patting yourself
on the back because the ratio of his deaths to yours
looks pretty good for you: 2:1. Now, suppose due to
some changes in the technology of agriculture, his diet
causes 300 deaths per week, while yours increases its
death toll to 100 per week. Wow! The ratio is even
more in your favor now: 3:1! But...WHAT THE ****ING
HELL: You now are causing TWICE as many deaths as you
used to cause. The ratio has gotten decidedly better
for you, but it simply CANNOT be a morally good outcome
that you are now causing twice as many deaths as before.

Comparing yourself to others as a basis for
establishing your virtue simply cannot be a valid basis
for virtue. Virtue consists ONLY in adhering to good,
sound moral principles, and we have seen that
"veganism" has none.

>
> You are trying to paint the act of eating brown rice, other grains and
> soy products as morbid and cavalier exercises in dietary excess.


No, he isn't. He is saying you have NO basis for
declaring yourself "virtuous" with respect to your
impact on animals. He is right.

>
> You couldn't be more wrong.


Sorry; he is absolutely right.

>
> Simply stated - i'll pass. You don't seem to have the intellectual
> faculties to follow a simple argument, or parse a simple sentence. And
> if your dull attacks are any indication your derived and irrelevant
> constructions are wholly pointless and spineless, and they are, then
> there isn't much to refute.


He may not write scintillating prose, but his points
are generally right. "veganism" is morally bankrupt.
  #78 (permalink)   Report Post  
Rudy Canoza
 
Posts: n/a
Default

wrote:

> rick wrote:
>
> wrote in message
roups.com...
>>
>>>i am referring to rick and Dutch here. Their by the book attacks
>>>and
>>>hollow ruminations seem at best spineless, pointless and soft.

>>
>>=====================
>>Really? Then refute anything we've said, killer. If you want
>>by-the-book recitations then the web-site posted isthe perfect
>>example, fool. It's a mish-mash of lys told over and over by the
>>wannabe vegan brain-dead.
>>

>
>
> Alright then here is your rather silly refutation. You seem to keep
> bringing up a rather pointless idea, namely that certain animals
> "might" get killed or displaced due to current farming practices. This
> may or may not be true, and you don't cite numbers, and for good
> reason.


No one seriously disputes the fact of collateral deaths
in agricultural. A professor at Oreon State
University, Stephen Davis, has written a paper on the
topic, suggesting that CDs might mean a "vegan" diet is
not the lowest-death diet one might follow. There used
to be a rice farmer in Texas who participated here and
posted under the name "diderot", who wrote at length
about the types and (rough) numbers of animals that
were killed in the process of cultivating and
harvesting rice.

>
> Even though some of these animal deaths might truly be avoidable, it is
> not the same as eating the flesh of an animal killed only to satisfy
> some urgent need to eat meat.


It actually is much worse, because the meat eater
doesn't pretend that by NOT eating something, he has
thereby attained some state of virtue.

This is what every "vegan" does. They all begin by
committing a classical logical fallacy: the fallacy of
Denying the Antecedent:

if I eat meat, I cause animals to suffer and die

I do not eat meat;

therefore, I do not cause animals to suffer and die

But you DO cause animals to suffer and die: the
animals who are chopped to bits in the course of
producing vegetable crops, and the animals that are
deliberately killed around food storage facilities to
prevent loss due to eating and contamination.

The problem with "veganism" is that the stupid,
****witted rule - "don't consume animal parts" - is NOT
based on any legitimate moral principle. But the rule
is the totality of "veganism", and we clearly can see
that it does not lead to a zero-death outcome.

"vegans" next back away from their demonstrably false
claim that they don't kill animals, and actually make
their moral position worse, because they then engage in
a despicable, deceitful counting game. They claim that
although they do cause animal deaths, they cause fewer
of them than meat eaters. This is deceitful, because
they have never counted, and don't ever intend to
count. It is despicable because it makes perfectly
clear that what they are about is their self-exaltation
over others whom they demonized in the first place.

First of all, virtue is NEVER shown by means of a
comparison with others; no worthwhile philosophy of
ethics, at any stage in the history of philosophy, has
ever said that you are virtuous if you do less of some
bad thing than someone else. This is because virtue
consists SOLELY in adhering to some set of moral
principles - and we have already seen that "veganism"
has NO principle at its base.

We can further see why the counting game is invalid by
conducting this little thought experiment. Suppose you
cause 50 animal deaths a week, and your meat-eating
neighbor causes 100. You strut around patting yourself
on the back because the ratio of his deaths to yours
looks pretty good for you: 2:1. Now, suppose due to
some changes in the technology of agriculture, his diet
causes 300 deaths per week, while yours increases its
death toll to 100 per week. Wow! The ratio is even
more in your favor now: 3:1! But...WHAT THE ****ING
HELL: You now are causing TWICE as many deaths as you
used to cause. The ratio has gotten decidedly better
for you, but it simply CANNOT be a morally good outcome
that you are now causing twice as many deaths as before.

Comparing yourself to others as a basis for
establishing your virtue simply cannot be a valid basis
for virtue. Virtue consists ONLY in adhering to good,
sound moral principles, and we have seen that
"veganism" has none.

>
> You are trying to paint the act of eating brown rice, other grains and
> soy products as morbid and cavalier exercises in dietary excess.


No, he isn't. He is saying you have NO basis for
declaring yourself "virtuous" with respect to your
impact on animals. He is right.

>
> You couldn't be more wrong.


Sorry; he is absolutely right.

>
> Simply stated - i'll pass. You don't seem to have the intellectual
> faculties to follow a simple argument, or parse a simple sentence. And
> if your dull attacks are any indication your derived and irrelevant
> constructions are wholly pointless and spineless, and they are, then
> there isn't much to refute.


He may not write scintillating prose, but his points
are generally right. "veganism" is morally bankrupt.
  #79 (permalink)   Report Post  
Rudy Canoza
 
Posts: n/a
Default

wrote:

> usual suspect wrote:
>
>>If you think killing one animal for food is wrong,

>
>
> i do. That's why i'm a vegan.


You have no basis for saying that, particularly give
that YOUR diet also causes animals to die. The only
difference is in the disposition of the corpses: the
animals killed for YOUR diet are left, chopped to bits,
to rot in the field; he eats some of the animals killed
for his diet.
>>why do you so non-chalantly turn an eye to the THOUSANDS
>>of dead animals for your "vegan" food

>
>
> Examples please - instead of these wild-eyed and hollow accusations.


See Dutch's link to Stephen Davis's paper. You can do
your own search in Google Groups for "collateral
included deaths in agriculture" by someone named "diderot".

>
>>SO LONG AS THOSE ANIMALS AREN'T TO SATISFY WHAT YOU CALL
>>"THE SAME URGENT NEED" TO EAT?

>
>
> That sentence fragment does not make any sense, but at least i'm not
> eating the flesh of a dead animal for my next meal. That's the
> difference.


So, this is purely about your warped sense of
aesthetics, then. I thought "vegans" were supposed to
be concerned about "animal rights", but here you are
blabbering away about your sense of pretty.

>
>
>>your diet causes animals to die.

>
>
> Again, examples please.


No one seriously disputes it. See "diderot's" posts,
and Stephen Davis's paper.

>>In reality, how the **** are you more ethical than he?

>
>
> i never mentioned ethics, but i'm glad you did. My diet is more
> compassionate than yours is and hence vegans are more ethical than you.
> Trust me.


So, we see that you ARE making this some kind of
counting game. See my comments in another reply.
Virtue is NEVER established by comparing yourself to
others (whom you usually have demonized _ex ante_, as
you have done here.) Virtue consists ONLY in abiding
by moral principles, something you are NOT doing in
refraining from eating meat; you are only following a
****witted, ethics-free rule.

>>They are morbid exercises.

>
>
> Eating brown rice and other grains is a morbid exercise? Do you realize
> what you are trying to say here? Maybe you could tell me which is the
> more morbid of the two, eating a bowl of brown rice or eating a banana
> for desert.


How many animals died for each? How the **** would you
even know? Do you know how rice is grown, dummy?
  #80 (permalink)   Report Post  
Rudy Canoza
 
Posts: n/a
Default

wrote:

> usual suspect wrote:
>
>>If you think killing one animal for food is wrong,

>
>
> i do. That's why i'm a vegan.


You have no basis for saying that, particularly give
that YOUR diet also causes animals to die. The only
difference is in the disposition of the corpses: the
animals killed for YOUR diet are left, chopped to bits,
to rot in the field; he eats some of the animals killed
for his diet.
>>why do you so non-chalantly turn an eye to the THOUSANDS
>>of dead animals for your "vegan" food

>
>
> Examples please - instead of these wild-eyed and hollow accusations.


See Dutch's link to Stephen Davis's paper. You can do
your own search in Google Groups for "collateral
included deaths in agriculture" by someone named "diderot".

>
>>SO LONG AS THOSE ANIMALS AREN'T TO SATISFY WHAT YOU CALL
>>"THE SAME URGENT NEED" TO EAT?

>
>
> That sentence fragment does not make any sense, but at least i'm not
> eating the flesh of a dead animal for my next meal. That's the
> difference.


So, this is purely about your warped sense of
aesthetics, then. I thought "vegans" were supposed to
be concerned about "animal rights", but here you are
blabbering away about your sense of pretty.

>
>
>>your diet causes animals to die.

>
>
> Again, examples please.


No one seriously disputes it. See "diderot's" posts,
and Stephen Davis's paper.

>>In reality, how the **** are you more ethical than he?

>
>
> i never mentioned ethics, but i'm glad you did. My diet is more
> compassionate than yours is and hence vegans are more ethical than you.
> Trust me.


So, we see that you ARE making this some kind of
counting game. See my comments in another reply.
Virtue is NEVER established by comparing yourself to
others (whom you usually have demonized _ex ante_, as
you have done here.) Virtue consists ONLY in abiding
by moral principles, something you are NOT doing in
refraining from eating meat; you are only following a
****witted, ethics-free rule.

>>They are morbid exercises.

>
>
> Eating brown rice and other grains is a morbid exercise? Do you realize
> what you are trying to say here? Maybe you could tell me which is the
> more morbid of the two, eating a bowl of brown rice or eating a banana
> for desert.


How many animals died for each? How the **** would you
even know? Do you know how rice is grown, dummy?


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