Los Angeles Times
March 7, 2005

The dairy debate: Does milk build stronger bones?
Some scientists are questioning dairy products' effectiveness in
helping prevent osteoporosis.
By Alice Lesch Kelly, Special to The Times

Bones need calcium. Doctors, dietitians and researchers agree on this
point.

Conventional wisdom holds that dairy foods are the best source of
calcium, and that American adults need to pump up their dairy intake to
get the large amount of calcium their bodies need every day. Not
everyone, however, believes the conventional wisdom.

Researchers are even raising questions about whether children need as
much milk as guidelines recommend. A review article in the current
issue of the journal Pediatrics concludes that there is "scant
evidence" that increasing dairy intake is the right way to promote bone
health in children.

Lately a small but highly respected band of scientists has been
speaking out. They say Americans need less calcium than dietary
guidelines recommend, and that drinking cup after cup of milk is not
the best way to get it.

On one side are the federal government, the dairy industry and the
majority of the nutrition community.

Milk plays a big part in the dietary guidelines recently released by
the federal government. Anyone older than 8 is urged to drink three
cups of low-fat or fat-free milk or eat an equivalent amount of yogurt
or cheese each day. The thinking behind this recommendation is that the
calcium in dairy products helps build strong bones and wards off
osteoporosis, a disease in which bones become porous and break easily.

On the other side are nutrition researchers from Harvard and Cornell
universities who say that when it comes to dairy, the U.S. dietary
guidelines have gone too far. They believe that exercise, heredity,
hormone levels, smoking, protein intake and intake of vitamins D and K
matter more than milk.

The debate over dietary calcium is occurring because of rising concern
over osteoporosis, or low bone mass. An estimated 10 million Americans
older than 50 - most of them women - have osteoporosis, and 34
million are at risk for developing it.

By 2020, one in two Americans older than 50 will be at risk for
fractures from osteoporosis or low bone mass, according to the U.S.
Surgeon General, who issued a report in October that sounded an alarm
on bone health. Bone health is so important that President Bush has
declared 2002-11 as the "decade of the bone and joint."

As for the link between dairy products and osteoporosis, "there's no
solid evidence that merely increasing the amount of milk in your diet
will protect you from breaking a hip or wrist or crushing a backbone in
later years," says Walter C. Willett, chairman of the Department of
Nutrition at the Harvard School of Public Health.

Willett bases his calcium conclusions on research that he and his team
at Harvard have done during the last 25 years. He is one of the
principal investigators of the Nurses' Health Study, which has looked
at the diet and health of tens of thousands of nurses since 1980, and
of the Health Professionals Follow-Up Study, an all-male study underway
since 1986.

When Willett and his colleagues investigated the milk-drinking habits
of 72,000 women in the Nurses' Health Study, they found that milk
consumption was not associated with a lower risk of hip fracture, a
measure of bone strength. In fact, women who drank milk twice a day
were as likely to suffer a bone break as women who drank it once a
week.

Likewise, the Health Professionals Follow-Up Study failed to find a
relationship between calcium intake and bone fractures in more than
43,000 men. And a 2003 Swedish study of more than 60,000 women, which
was published in the journal Bone, found no association between dietary
calcium intake and fracture risk.

"We do need some calcium - it's essential - but the question is,
how much?" says Willett, author of the 2001 book "Eat, Drink, and Be
Healthy." He believes the body needs 500 to 700 milligrams of calcium
daily rather than the 1,000 to 1,500 milligrams a day recommended by
the dietary guidelines.

T. Colin Campbell, professor emeritus of nutritional biochemistry at
Cornell University, also questions dairy's place in the dietary
guidelines. "I like dairy. I grew up on a farm. But one has to look at
the facts," he says. "Dairy has been considered a health food, and
that's an unfortunate myth."

Campbell's views come from observations he and his colleagues made
during a series of nutritional studies that began in 1983 and are
collectively known as the China Study. In these studies, Campbell found
that Asians, who consume far less dietary calcium than Americans, have
one-fifth the bone fracture rate of Americans.

"Those countries that use the most cow's milk and its products also
have the highest fracture rates and the worst bone health," Campbell
says. He details the results of his work in a new book called "The
China Study."

In Asian countries, people can get all the calcium their bodies need
from plant sources such as leafy green vegetables, Campbell says.

Americans have weak bones not because they drink too little milk but
because they drink too much, Campbell says. Animal protein, such as the
protein in milk, makes blood and tissues more acidic, and to neutralize
this acid, the body pulls calcium, which is a very effective base, from
the bones. Because dairy products contain substantial amounts of animal
protein, drinking milk actually robs the bones of calcium, he says. The
more meat and milk Americans eat, he says, the more calcium they need
to consume to process that protein.

That's ridiculous, osteoporosis researchers say. Although they agree
that eating excessive amounts of protein may leach calcium from the
bones, they see moderate amounts of protein-rich dairy foods as an
excellent way to keep bones strong.

"There is a growing number of studies that have shown an association
between higher protein intake and less bone loss," says Bess
Dawson-Hughes, director of the Bone Metabolism Laboratory at Tufts
University.

To be sure, many studies do point to a connection between dairy and
bone health.

A research review of 138 studies exploring the relationship between
bone health and calcium intake, including numerous studies that used
dairy products as the calcium source, found overwhelming evidence that
lifelong calcium intake is one of the most significant factors for
determining risk of an osteoporotic fracture, says Deanna Segrave-Daly,
a registered dietitian and spokeswoman for the National Dairy Council.

The review was published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition
in 2000.

But that same review reported that not all dairy foods boost bone
health. "Foods such as milk and yogurt are likely to be beneficial;
others, such as cottage cheese, may adversely affect bone health," the
review states. "The high calcium content of processed cheese products
may be offset by the high sodium, polyphosphate, and protein contents
of these products, which can be expected to increase calcium losses."

Researchers say there are several possible reasons why milk study
results vary so.

Most clinical trials - studies in which one group of people increases
calcium intake and another group does not - have shown that adding
calcium to the diet increases bone density. But most clinical trials
last for less than three years, says Diane Feskanich, an investigator
for the Nurses' Health Study. "It could be that bone density does not
continue to increase in the long run - in fact, a study that went on
for three years found that after an initial increase in bone density,
it did not continue to increase in the third year."

Observational studies such as the Nurses' Health Study "are usually run
over many years and in this way better suited to determine the
long-term effects of high calcium intakes," Feskanich says.

It is also possible that vitamin D is as important or more important
than calcium for maintaining bone density into adulthood.

Researchers don't understand exactly what role vitamin D plays, but
there is a growing belief in the scientific community that the poor
state of the nation's bones has something to do with a widespread
shortage of vitamin D. The body gets vitamin D from food and sunlight,
and as people cover up to avoid the cancer-causing rays of the sun,
they may also send vitamin D levels plummeting. "Most Americans are
short on vitamin D," Willett says.

The rest of the diet may play a part in bone health too, in ways
researchers don't yet understand. Other nutrients in the diet may
either help or hinder calcium absorption. "We are overfed, but are we
eating the right things?" asks Lori Hoolihan, nutrition research
specialist with the Dairy Council of California. "We are a fat nation,
but in some ways we are malnourished."

Even those researchers who agree with the three-glasses-a-day
recommendation say there is a limit to what dairy calcium can do. "The
gene pool accounts for most of your risk," Dawson-Hughes says.

During the years in which people build bone mass - from birth to
about age 20 or 25 - bone density is determined 80% by genetics and
only 20% by lifestyle factors such as exercise and diet. Bone loss,
which starts to occur after age 25 or so, is determined half by
genetics and half by lifestyle choices, Dawson-Hughes says.

Finally, there is an emotional side to this issue. The dairy debate is
conducted in large part by two groups who accuse each other of twisting
science and letting money or ideology cloud their views: the dairy
industry and vegetarians.

The dairy industry accuses the anti-dairy camp of promoting an
animal-free diet whether it makes nutritional sense or not. Dairy
critics charge the dairy industry with bankrolling pro-dairy research
and influencing the government's dietary recommendations.

One thing both parties agree on is that exercise helps to build bones
and maintain bone density throughout life.

http://www.healthsentinel.com/news.p...st_item&id=665

"Exercise, Some Calcium Build Strong Bones- Report", Reuters UK, March
7, 2005,
Link:
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle...T14MCAGNRZQICR...

Children who drink more milk do not necessarily develop healthier
bones, researchers said on Monday in a report that stresses exercise
and modest consumption of calcium-rich foods such as tofu.

The U.S. government has gradually increased recommendations for daily
calcium intake, largely from dairy products, to between 800 and 1,300
milligrams to promote healthy bones and prevent osteoporosis. But the
report, published in the journal Pediatrics, said boosting consumption
of milk or other dairy products was not necessarily the best way to
provide the minimal calcium intake of at least 400 milligrams per day.

....

The best scientific paper I've seen on cellular level mechanisms
demonstrated that arachidonic acid inhibited osteoblast activitiy
tremendously, whereas butter enhanced activity. So it seems that
combining an easily absorbable supplement, such as calcium citrate,
plus eating butter in fairly large amounts, would be a great idea. Why
is it that these "experts" never mention the scientific literature on
this subject? Amazing, really - I would have been laughed out of grad
school if I didn't have a very strong knowledge of the relevant
literature on my area of expertise.

yogurt and ca-fortified o.j. work best.

MrPepper11 wrote:
> Los Angeles Times
> March 7, 2005
>
> The dairy debate: Does milk build stronger bones?
> Some scientists are questioning dairy products' effectiveness in
> helping prevent osteoporosis.
> By Alice Lesch Kelly, Special to The Times
>
> Bones need calcium. Doctors, dietitians and researchers agree on this
> point.
>
> Conventional wisdom holds that dairy foods are the best source of
> calcium, and that American adults need to pump up their dairy intake
to
> get the large amount of calcium their bodies need every day. Not
> everyone, however, believes the conventional wisdom.
>
> Researchers are even raising questions about whether children need as
> much milk as guidelines recommend. A review article in the current
> issue of the journal Pediatrics concludes that there is "scant
> evidence" that increasing dairy intake is the right way to promote
bone
> health in children.
>
> Lately a small but highly respected band of scientists has been
> speaking out. They say Americans need less calcium than dietary
> guidelines recommend, and that drinking cup after cup of milk is not
> the best way to get it.
>
> On one side are the federal government, the dairy industry and the
> majority of the nutrition community.
>
> Milk plays a big part in the dietary guidelines recently released by
> the federal government. Anyone older than 8 is urged to drink three
> cups of low-fat or fat-free milk or eat an equivalent amount of
yogurt
> or cheese each day. The thinking behind this recommendation is that
the
> calcium in dairy products helps build strong bones and wards off
> osteoporosis, a disease in which bones become porous and break
easily.
>
> On the other side are nutrition researchers from Harvard and Cornell
> universities who say that when it comes to dairy, the U.S. dietary
> guidelines have gone too far. They believe that exercise, heredity,
> hormone levels, smoking, protein intake and intake of vitamins D and
K
> matter more than milk.
>
> The debate over dietary calcium is occurring because of rising
concern
> over osteoporosis, or low bone mass. An estimated 10 million
Americans
> older than 50 - most of them women - have osteoporosis, and 34
> million are at risk for developing it.
>
> By 2020, one in two Americans older than 50 will be at risk for
> fractures from osteoporosis or low bone mass, according to the U.S.
> Surgeon General, who issued a report in October that sounded an alarm
> on bone health. Bone health is so important that President Bush has
> declared 2002-11 as the "decade of the bone and joint."
>
> As for the link between dairy products and osteoporosis, "there's no
> solid evidence that merely increasing the amount of milk in your diet
> will protect you from breaking a hip or wrist or crushing a backbone
in
> later years," says Walter C. Willett, chairman of the Department of
> Nutrition at the Harvard School of Public Health.
>
> Willett bases his calcium conclusions on research that he and his
team
> at Harvard have done during the last 25 years. He is one of the
> principal investigators of the Nurses' Health Study, which has looked
> at the diet and health of tens of thousands of nurses since 1980, and
> of the Health Professionals Follow-Up Study, an all-male study
underway
> since 1986.
>
> When Willett and his colleagues investigated the milk-drinking habits
> of 72,000 women in the Nurses' Health Study, they found that milk
> consumption was not associated with a lower risk of hip fracture, a
> measure of bone strength. In fact, women who drank milk twice a day
> were as likely to suffer a bone break as women who drank it once a
> week.
>
> Likewise, the Health Professionals Follow-Up Study failed to find a
> relationship between calcium intake and bone fractures in more than
> 43,000 men. And a 2003 Swedish study of more than 60,000 women, which
> was published in the journal Bone, found no association between
dietary
> calcium intake and fracture risk.
>
> "We do need some calcium - it's essential - but the question is,
> how much?" says Willett, author of the 2001 book "Eat, Drink, and Be
> Healthy." He believes the body needs 500 to 700 milligrams of calcium
> daily rather than the 1,000 to 1,500 milligrams a day recommended by
> the dietary guidelines.
>
> T. Colin Campbell, professor emeritus of nutritional biochemistry at
> Cornell University, also questions dairy's place in the dietary
> guidelines. "I like dairy. I grew up on a farm. But one has to look
at
> the facts," he says. "Dairy has been considered a health food, and
> that's an unfortunate myth."
>
> Campbell's views come from observations he and his colleagues made
> during a series of nutritional studies that began in 1983 and are
> collectively known as the China Study. In these studies, Campbell
found
> that Asians, who consume far less dietary calcium than Americans,
have
> one-fifth the bone fracture rate of Americans.
>
> "Those countries that use the most cow's milk and its products also
> have the highest fracture rates and the worst bone health," Campbell
> says. He details the results of his work in a new book called "The
> China Study."
>
> In Asian countries, people can get all the calcium their bodies need
> from plant sources such as leafy green vegetables, Campbell says.
>
> Americans have weak bones not because they drink too little milk but
> because they drink too much, Campbell says. Animal protein, such as
the
> protein in milk, makes blood and tissues more acidic, and to
neutralize
> this acid, the body pulls calcium, which is a very effective base,
from
> the bones. Because dairy products contain substantial amounts of
animal
> protein, drinking milk actually robs the bones of calcium, he says.
The
> more meat and milk Americans eat, he says, the more calcium they need
> to consume to process that protein.
>
> That's ridiculous, osteoporosis researchers say. Although they agree
> that eating excessive amounts of protein may leach calcium from the
> bones, they see moderate amounts of protein-rich dairy foods as an
> excellent way to keep bones strong.
>
> "There is a growing number of studies that have shown an association
> between higher protein intake and less bone loss," says Bess
> Dawson-Hughes, director of the Bone Metabolism Laboratory at Tufts
> University.
>
> To be sure, many studies do point to a connection between dairy and
> bone health.
>
> A research review of 138 studies exploring the relationship between
> bone health and calcium intake, including numerous studies that used
> dairy products as the calcium source, found overwhelming evidence
that
> lifelong calcium intake is one of the most significant factors for
> determining risk of an osteoporotic fracture, says Deanna
Segrave-Daly,
> a registered dietitian and spokeswoman for the National Dairy
Council.
>
> The review was published in the American Journal of Clinical
Nutrition
> in 2000.
>
> But that same review reported that not all dairy foods boost bone
> health. "Foods such as milk and yogurt are likely to be beneficial;
> others, such as cottage cheese, may adversely affect bone health,"
the
> review states. "The high calcium content of processed cheese products
> may be offset by the high sodium, polyphosphate, and protein contents
> of these products, which can be expected to increase calcium losses."
>
> Researchers say there are several possible reasons why milk study
> results vary so.
>
> Most clinical trials - studies in which one group of people increases
> calcium intake and another group does not - have shown that adding
> calcium to the diet increases bone density. But most clinical trials
> last for less than three years, says Diane Feskanich, an investigator
> for the Nurses' Health Study. "It could be that bone density does not
> continue to increase in the long run - in fact, a study that went on
> for three years found that after an initial increase in bone density,
> it did not continue to increase in the third year."
>
> Observational studies such as the Nurses' Health Study "are usually
run
> over many years and in this way better suited to determine the
> long-term effects of high calcium intakes," Feskanich says.
>
> It is also possible that vitamin D is as important or more important
> than calcium for maintaining bone density into adulthood.
>
> Researchers don't understand exactly what role vitamin D plays, but
> there is a growing belief in the scientific community that the poor
> state of the nation's bones has something to do with a widespread
> shortage of vitamin D. The body gets vitamin D from food and
sunlight,
> and as people cover up to avoid the cancer-causing rays of the sun,
> they may also send vitamin D levels plummeting. "Most Americans are
> short on vitamin D," Willett says.
>
> The rest of the diet may play a part in bone health too, in ways
> researchers don't yet understand. Other nutrients in the diet may
> either help or hinder calcium absorption. "We are overfed, but are we
> eating the right things?" asks Lori Hoolihan, nutrition research
> specialist with the Dairy Council of California. "We are a fat
nation,
> but in some ways we are malnourished."
>
> Even those researchers who agree with the three-glasses-a-day
> recommendation say there is a limit to what dairy calcium can do.
"The
> gene pool accounts for most of your risk," Dawson-Hughes says.
>
> During the years in which people build bone mass - from birth to
> about age 20 or 25 - bone density is determined 80% by genetics and
> only 20% by lifestyle factors such as exercise and diet. Bone loss,
> which starts to occur after age 25 or so, is determined half by
> genetics and half by lifestyle choices, Dawson-Hughes says.
>
> Finally, there is an emotional side to this issue. The dairy debate
is
> conducted in large part by two groups who accuse each other of
twisting
> science and letting money or ideology cloud their views: the dairy
> industry and vegetarians.
>
> The dairy industry accuses the anti-dairy camp of promoting an
> animal-free diet whether it makes nutritional sense or not. Dairy
> critics charge the dairy industry with bankrolling pro-dairy research
> and influencing the government's dietary recommendations.
>
> One thing both parties agree on is that exercise helps to build bones
> and maintain bone density throughout life.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15310538

Celiac disease manifesting as isolated hypocalcemia.

Rickels MR, Mandel SJ.

Division of Endocrinology, Diabetes and Metabolism, Department of
Medicine, University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania 19104, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To describe a patient who presented with hypocalcemia and
hypocalciuria as the initial manifestations of celiac disease, despite
a normal vitamin D status. METHODS: We review the diagnostic
evaluation, treatment, and biochemical and bone mineral density
responses of a patient with asymptomatic celiac disease, which was
initially suggested because of a low serum calcium level that became
attributable to isolated malabsorption of calcium. RESULTS: A
36-year-old woman presented with hypocalcemia in the presence of normal
serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D and high serum 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D
levels. She had hypocalciuria and secondary hyperparathyroidism that
were refractory to pharmacologic calcium and cholecalciferol
supplementation. Fecal calcium excretion indicated malabsorption of
calcium, and biopsy of the small intestine demonstrated pathologic
changes characteristic of celiac disease. Bone mineral density,
determined by dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry, was in the osteopenic
range at the femoral neck. The initiation of a gluten-free diet
resulted in correction of all biochemical abnormalities and a
substantial increase in bone mineral density. CONCLUSION: Primary
intestinal malabsorption of calcium without concomitant vitamin D
deficiency is possible in celiac disease because of the preferential
involvement of the proximal small intestine early in the disease
process. Our patient had hypocalcemia caused by celiac disease and
values for serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D and 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D that
were normal and elevated, respectively. Correction was demonstrated
after dietary gluten withdrawal.

***************

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15176994

Imbalance of osteoclastogenesis-regulating factors in patients with
celiac disease.

Taranta A, Fortunati D, Longo M, Rucci N, Iacomino E, Aliberti F,
Facciuto E, Migliaccio S, Bardella MT, Dubini A, Borghi MO, Saraifoger
S, Teti A, Bianchi ML.

Istituto Dermopatico dell'Immacolata, Istituto di Ricovero e Cura a
Carattere Scientifico, Roma, Italy.

Celiac disease is an autoimmune disorder characterized by atrophy of
the intestine villi triggered by ingestion of gluten in genetically
susceptible individuals. The association between celiac disease and low
BMD has been recognized, but the mechanisms of disturbance are poorly
understood. We show imbalance of cytokines relevant to bone metabolism
in celiac patients' sera and the direct effect of these sera on in
vitro bone cell activity. INTRODUCTION: Celiac disease is associated
with mineral metabolism derangement and low BMD. We investigated
whether imbalance of serum factors in celiac patients could affect
human bone cell activity in vitro. MATERIALS AND METHODS: We studied
two groups of celiac patients--one on a gluten-free diet and another
before the diet--both with decreased bone mass. Patients were
investigated for bone turnover markers, and their sera were used for
culturing bone cells from healthy donors and evaluate changes in cell
activity. RESULTS: The N-terminal telopeptide of procollagen type I and
interleukin (IL)-6 were higher than normal in patients not on the
gluten-free diet. IL-1beta and TNF-alpha/beta were normal in all
patients. IL-12 was reduced in all patients, whereas IL-18 was reduced
only in patients on the diet. The RANKL/osteoprotegerin (OPG) ratio was
increased in patients not on the gluten-free diet. Persistently
increased osteoclast numbers were obtained from peripheral blood
mononuclear cells of healthy donors on incubation with sera of patients
not on the gluten-free diet versus control sera and sera from patients
on the diet. In human osteoblasts from healthy individuals, IL-18 was
reduced on incubation with sera from all patients, whereas OPG
expression was lower when sera from patients not on the diet were used.
Proliferation, alkaline phosphatase, and nodule mineralization were
increased in osteoblast cultures containing sera from all celiac
patients, either on or not on the gluten-free diet.Conclusions: We
conclude that bone loss in celiac disease might also be caused by a
cytokine imbalance directly affecting osteoclastogenesis and osteoblast
activity.

PMID: 15176994 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

******************************

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15052725

[Compliance with gluten free diet, physical development and bone
mineral status in patients with celiac disease]

[Article in Polish]

Grzenda-Adamek Z, Piatkowska E, Strzepek J, Przybyszewska K, Kruszewska
M.

Klinika Pediatrii Gastroenterologii i Zywienia, Polsko-Amerykanski
Instytut Pediatrii Collegium Medicum Uniwersytetu Jagiellonskiego w
Krakowie.

OBJECTIVES: The aim of the study was the assessment of the influence of
a gluten free diet on physical development and bone mineral density
(BMD) in patients with celiac disease. MATERIALS & METHODS: 59 patients
(40 girls, 19 boys) aged 10-20 years with celiac disease, diagnosed
according to ESPGAN criteria were included in the study. Patients were
divided in 3 groups: 1--strict gluten free diet, II--not entirely
compliant i.e. faults in gluten free diet 1-2 times per week,
III--gluten free diet not followed or frequent faults. Daily calcium
(Ca) intake and physical activity was assessed. BMD of the lumbar spine
L2-L4 was measured by dual-energy-X-ray absorptiometry with LUNAR
DPX-IQ. Physical development was assessed by anthropometric
measurements: growth and weight. RESULTS: Gluten free diet was strictly
followed by 16 (27%) patients (group I), group II consisted of 23 (39%)
patients. Diet was not followed by 20 (34%) patients. Thirty five (59%)
patients had low Ca intake and they made up the majority of the
patients in every group. High physical activity declared 35 (59%)
patients. No statistically significant differences in BMD were found
between group I and II. BMD was lower in group III in comparison to
group I (p = 0.01) and group II (p = 0.003). BMD was higher in patients
with high Ca intake (p = 0.002). Physical activity had no significant
influence on BMD. There was no statistically significant difference in
physical development between groups. CONCLUSIONS: Majority of the
patients with celiac disease did not strictly follow gluten free diet.
Poor compliance to the diet had no significant influence on physical
development. BMD was lower in patients who were not compliant to the
gluten free diet, occasional faults in the diet had no influence on the
BMD.

PMID: 15052725 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

**********************

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=14684411

Longitudinal changes in bone metabolism and bone mineral content in
children with celiac disease during consumption of a gluten-free diet.

Barera G, Beccio S, Proverbio MC, Mora S.

Department of Pediatrics, Scientific Institute H San Raffaele, Milan,
Italy.

BACKGROUND: A gluten-free diet (GFD) rapidly corrects the bone mineral
deficit of children with untreated celiac disease. The mechanisms
underlying such changes are still poorly understood. OBJECTIVE: In a
longitudinal study, we monitored changes in bone metabolism during
consumption of a GFD. DESIGN: We studied 22 white patients with celiac
disease (11 girls) aged 10.5 +/- 1.0 y at the time of diagnosis. We
compared bone metabolism and bone mass values in these patients with
those in 428 healthy white children aged 11.3 +/- 0.2 y. Bone-specific
alkaline phosphatase (a bone formation index) and N-terminal
telopeptide of type I collagen (NTx; a bone resorption marker) were
measured at the time of diagnosis and after 2, 6, and 12 mo of the GFD.
Bone mineral content was measured at the lumbar spine and for the whole
skeleton. RESULTS: The bone mineral content of patients was
significantly lower than that of control subjects at the time of
diagnosis but not after 1 y of the GFD. Serum bone-specific alkaline
phosphatase concentrations of patients were significantly lower than
those of control subjects at the time of diagnosis (P = 0.0064) and
increased gradually and significantly during the GFD (ANOVA F = 4.71; P
= 0.024). Conversely, patients with untreated disease had significantly
higher urinary concentrations of NTx than did healthy control subjects
(P < 0.0001). Urinary concentrations of NTx were not significantly
affected by treatment (P = 0.37). CONCLUSIONS: The rate of bone
metabolism is altered in children with untreated celiac disease, and
these alterations may be the cause of osteopathy. Remarkable changes
occur after the initiation of a GFD, and they result in a more balanced
equilibrium.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial

PMID: 14684411 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

*************

For more go to:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...arch&DB=pubmed

********

It is not the presence or or absence of milk that is the problem, it is
the presence of gluten-containing foods in the diet. A diet high in
gluten-containing grains causes low BMD, coeliac disease and many other
problems.

TC

search for "gluten bone density" at:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...arch&DB=pubmed

TC




TC wrote:
> MrPepper11 wrote:
> > Los Angeles Times
> > March 7, 2005
> >
> > The dairy debate: Does milk build stronger bones?
> > Some scientists are questioning dairy products' effectiveness in
> > helping prevent osteoporosis.
> > By Alice Lesch Kelly, Special to The Times
> >
> > Bones need calcium. Doctors, dietitians and researchers agree on
this
> > point.
> >
> > Conventional wisdom holds that dairy foods are the best source of
> > calcium, and that American adults need to pump up their dairy
intake
> to
> > get the large amount of calcium their bodies need every day. Not
> > everyone, however, believes the conventional wisdom.
> >
> > Researchers are even raising questions about whether children need
as
> > much milk as guidelines recommend. A review article in the current
> > issue of the journal Pediatrics concludes that there is "scant
> > evidence" that increasing dairy intake is the right way to promote
> bone
> > health in children.
> >
> > Lately a small but highly respected band of scientists has been
> > speaking out. They say Americans need less calcium than dietary
> > guidelines recommend, and that drinking cup after cup of milk is
not
> > the best way to get it.
> >
> > On one side are the federal government, the dairy industry and the
> > majority of the nutrition community.
> >
> > Milk plays a big part in the dietary guidelines recently released
by
> > the federal government. Anyone older than 8 is urged to drink three
> > cups of low-fat or fat-free milk or eat an equivalent amount of
> yogurt
> > or cheese each day. The thinking behind this recommendation is that
> the
> > calcium in dairy products helps build strong bones and wards off
> > osteoporosis, a disease in which bones become porous and break
> easily.
> >
> > On the other side are nutrition researchers from Harvard and
Cornell
> > universities who say that when it comes to dairy, the U.S. dietary
> > guidelines have gone too far. They believe that exercise, heredity,
> > hormone levels, smoking, protein intake and intake of vitamins D
and
> K
> > matter more than milk.
> >
> > The debate over dietary calcium is occurring because of rising
> concern
> > over osteoporosis, or low bone mass. An estimated 10 million
> Americans
> > older than 50 - most of them women - have osteoporosis, and 34
> > million are at risk for developing it.
> >
> > By 2020, one in two Americans older than 50 will be at risk for
> > fractures from osteoporosis or low bone mass, according to the U.S.
> > Surgeon General, who issued a report in October that sounded an
alarm
> > on bone health. Bone health is so important that President Bush has
> > declared 2002-11 as the "decade of the bone and joint."
> >
> > As for the link between dairy products and osteoporosis, "there's
no
> > solid evidence that merely increasing the amount of milk in your
diet
> > will protect you from breaking a hip or wrist or crushing a
backbone
> in
> > later years," says Walter C. Willett, chairman of the Department of
> > Nutrition at the Harvard School of Public Health.
> >
> > Willett bases his calcium conclusions on research that he and his
> team
> > at Harvard have done during the last 25 years. He is one of the
> > principal investigators of the Nurses' Health Study, which has
looked
> > at the diet and health of tens of thousands of nurses since 1980,
and
> > of the Health Professionals Follow-Up Study, an all-male study
> underway
> > since 1986.
> >
> > When Willett and his colleagues investigated the milk-drinking
habits
> > of 72,000 women in the Nurses' Health Study, they found that milk
> > consumption was not associated with a lower risk of hip fracture, a
> > measure of bone strength. In fact, women who drank milk twice a day
> > were as likely to suffer a bone break as women who drank it once a
> > week.
> >
> > Likewise, the Health Professionals Follow-Up Study failed to find a
> > relationship between calcium intake and bone fractures in more than
> > 43,000 men. And a 2003 Swedish study of more than 60,000 women,
which
> > was published in the journal Bone, found no association between
> dietary
> > calcium intake and fracture risk.
> >
> > "We do need some calcium - it's essential - but the question is,
> > how much?" says Willett, author of the 2001 book "Eat, Drink, and
Be
> > Healthy." He believes the body needs 500 to 700 milligrams of
calcium
> > daily rather than the 1,000 to 1,500 milligrams a day recommended
by
> > the dietary guidelines.
> >
> > T. Colin Campbell, professor emeritus of nutritional biochemistry
at
> > Cornell University, also questions dairy's place in the dietary
> > guidelines. "I like dairy. I grew up on a farm. But one has to look
> at
> > the facts," he says. "Dairy has been considered a health food, and
> > that's an unfortunate myth."
> >
> > Campbell's views come from observations he and his colleagues made
> > during a series of nutritional studies that began in 1983 and are
> > collectively known as the China Study. In these studies, Campbell
> found
> > that Asians, who consume far less dietary calcium than Americans,
> have
> > one-fifth the bone fracture rate of Americans.
> >
> > "Those countries that use the most cow's milk and its products also
> > have the highest fracture rates and the worst bone health,"
Campbell
> > says. He details the results of his work in a new book called "The
> > China Study."
> >
> > In Asian countries, people can get all the calcium their bodies
need
> > from plant sources such as leafy green vegetables, Campbell says.
> >
> > Americans have weak bones not because they drink too little milk
but
> > because they drink too much, Campbell says. Animal protein, such as
> the
> > protein in milk, makes blood and tissues more acidic, and to
> neutralize
> > this acid, the body pulls calcium, which is a very effective base,
> from
> > the bones. Because dairy products contain substantial amounts of
> animal
> > protein, drinking milk actually robs the bones of calcium, he says.
> The
> > more meat and milk Americans eat, he says, the more calcium they
need
> > to consume to process that protein.
> >
> > That's ridiculous, osteoporosis researchers say. Although they
agree
> > that eating excessive amounts of protein may leach calcium from the
> > bones, they see moderate amounts of protein-rich dairy foods as an
> > excellent way to keep bones strong.
> >
> > "There is a growing number of studies that have shown an
association
> > between higher protein intake and less bone loss," says Bess
> > Dawson-Hughes, director of the Bone Metabolism Laboratory at Tufts
> > University.
> >
> > To be sure, many studies do point to a connection between dairy and
> > bone health.
> >
> > A research review of 138 studies exploring the relationship between
> > bone health and calcium intake, including numerous studies that
used
> > dairy products as the calcium source, found overwhelming evidence
> that
> > lifelong calcium intake is one of the most significant factors for
> > determining risk of an osteoporotic fracture, says Deanna
> Segrave-Daly,
> > a registered dietitian and spokeswoman for the National Dairy
> Council.
> >
> > The review was published in the American Journal of Clinical
> Nutrition
> > in 2000.
> >
> > But that same review reported that not all dairy foods boost bone
> > health. "Foods such as milk and yogurt are likely to be beneficial;
> > others, such as cottage cheese, may adversely affect bone health,"
> the
> > review states. "The high calcium content of processed cheese
products
> > may be offset by the high sodium, polyphosphate, and protein
contents
> > of these products, which can be expected to increase calcium
losses."
> >
> > Researchers say there are several possible reasons why milk study
> > results vary so.
> >
> > Most clinical trials - studies in which one group of people
increases
> > calcium intake and another group does not - have shown that adding
> > calcium to the diet increases bone density. But most clinical
trials
> > last for less than three years, says Diane Feskanich, an
investigator
> > for the Nurses' Health Study. "It could be that bone density does
not
> > continue to increase in the long run - in fact, a study that went
on
> > for three years found that after an initial increase in bone
density,
> > it did not continue to increase in the third year."
> >
> > Observational studies such as the Nurses' Health Study "are usually
> run
> > over many years and in this way better suited to determine the
> > long-term effects of high calcium intakes," Feskanich says.
> >
> > It is also possible that vitamin D is as important or more
important
> > than calcium for maintaining bone density into adulthood.
> >
> > Researchers don't understand exactly what role vitamin D plays, but
> > there is a growing belief in the scientific community that the poor
> > state of the nation's bones has something to do with a widespread
> > shortage of vitamin D. The body gets vitamin D from food and
> sunlight,
> > and as people cover up to avoid the cancer-causing rays of the sun,
> > they may also send vitamin D levels plummeting. "Most Americans are
> > short on vitamin D," Willett says.
> >
> > The rest of the diet may play a part in bone health too, in ways
> > researchers don't yet understand. Other nutrients in the diet may
> > either help or hinder calcium absorption. "We are overfed, but are
we
> > eating the right things?" asks Lori Hoolihan, nutrition research
> > specialist with the Dairy Council of California. "We are a fat
> nation,
> > but in some ways we are malnourished."
> >
> > Even those researchers who agree with the three-glasses-a-day
> > recommendation say there is a limit to what dairy calcium can do.
> "The
> > gene pool accounts for most of your risk," Dawson-Hughes says.
> >
> > During the years in which people build bone mass - from birth to
> > about age 20 or 25 - bone density is determined 80% by genetics and
> > only 20% by lifestyle factors such as exercise and diet. Bone loss,
> > which starts to occur after age 25 or so, is determined half by
> > genetics and half by lifestyle choices, Dawson-Hughes says.
> >
> > Finally, there is an emotional side to this issue. The dairy debate
> is
> > conducted in large part by two groups who accuse each other of
> twisting
> > science and letting money or ideology cloud their views: the dairy
> > industry and vegetarians.
> >
> > The dairy industry accuses the anti-dairy camp of promoting an
> > animal-free diet whether it makes nutritional sense or not. Dairy
> > critics charge the dairy industry with bankrolling pro-dairy
research
> > and influencing the government's dietary recommendations.
> >
> > One thing both parties agree on is that exercise helps to build
bones
> > and maintain bone density throughout life.
>
>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15310538
>
> Celiac disease manifesting as isolated hypocalcemia.
>
> Rickels MR, Mandel SJ.
>
> Division of Endocrinology, Diabetes and Metabolism, Department of
> Medicine, University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine,
Philadelphia,
> Pennsylvania 19104, USA.
>
> OBJECTIVE: To describe a patient who presented with hypocalcemia and
> hypocalciuria as the initial manifestations of celiac disease,
despite
> a normal vitamin D status. METHODS: We review the diagnostic
> evaluation, treatment, and biochemical and bone mineral density
> responses of a patient with asymptomatic celiac disease, which was
> initially suggested because of a low serum calcium level that became
> attributable to isolated malabsorption of calcium. RESULTS: A
> 36-year-old woman presented with hypocalcemia in the presence of
normal
> serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D and high serum 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D
> levels. She had hypocalciuria and secondary hyperparathyroidism that
> were refractory to pharmacologic calcium and cholecalciferol
> supplementation. Fecal calcium excretion indicated malabsorption of
> calcium, and biopsy of the small intestine demonstrated pathologic
> changes characteristic of celiac disease. Bone mineral density,
> determined by dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry, was in the osteopenic
> range at the femoral neck. The initiation of a gluten-free diet
> resulted in correction of all biochemical abnormalities and a
> substantial increase in bone mineral density. CONCLUSION: Primary
> intestinal malabsorption of calcium without concomitant vitamin D
> deficiency is possible in celiac disease because of the preferential
> involvement of the proximal small intestine early in the disease
> process. Our patient had hypocalcemia caused by celiac disease and
> values for serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D and 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D that
> were normal and elevated, respectively. Correction was demonstrated
> after dietary gluten withdrawal.
>
> ***************
>
>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15176994
>
> Imbalance of osteoclastogenesis-regulating factors in patients with
> celiac disease.
>
> Taranta A, Fortunati D, Longo M, Rucci N, Iacomino E, Aliberti F,
> Facciuto E, Migliaccio S, Bardella MT, Dubini A, Borghi MO,
Saraifoger
> S, Teti A, Bianchi ML.
>
> Istituto Dermopatico dell'Immacolata, Istituto di Ricovero e Cura a
> Carattere Scientifico, Roma, Italy.
>
> Celiac disease is an autoimmune disorder characterized by atrophy of
> the intestine villi triggered by ingestion of gluten in genetically
> susceptible individuals. The association between celiac disease and
low
> BMD has been recognized, but the mechanisms of disturbance are poorly
> understood. We show imbalance of cytokines relevant to bone
metabolism
> in celiac patients' sera and the direct effect of these sera on in
> vitro bone cell activity. INTRODUCTION: Celiac disease is associated
> with mineral metabolism derangement and low BMD. We investigated
> whether imbalance of serum factors in celiac patients could affect
> human bone cell activity in vitro. MATERIALS AND METHODS: We studied
> two groups of celiac patients--one on a gluten-free diet and another
> before the diet--both with decreased bone mass. Patients were
> investigated for bone turnover markers, and their sera were used for
> culturing bone cells from healthy donors and evaluate changes in cell
> activity. RESULTS: The N-terminal telopeptide of procollagen type I
and
> interleukin (IL)-6 were higher than normal in patients not on the
> gluten-free diet. IL-1beta and TNF-alpha/beta were normal in all
> patients. IL-12 was reduced in all patients, whereas IL-18 was
reduced
> only in patients on the diet. The RANKL/osteoprotegerin (OPG) ratio
was
> increased in patients not on the gluten-free diet. Persistently
> increased osteoclast numbers were obtained from peripheral blood
> mononuclear cells of healthy donors on incubation with sera of
patients
> not on the gluten-free diet versus control sera and sera from
patients
> on the diet. In human osteoblasts from healthy individuals, IL-18 was
> reduced on incubation with sera from all patients, whereas OPG
> expression was lower when sera from patients not on the diet were
used.
> Proliferation, alkaline phosphatase, and nodule mineralization were
> increased in osteoblast cultures containing sera from all celiac
> patients, either on or not on the gluten-free diet.Conclusions: We
> conclude that bone loss in celiac disease might also be caused by a
> cytokine imbalance directly affecting osteoclastogenesis and
osteoblast
> activity.
>
> PMID: 15176994 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
>
> ******************************
>
>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15052725
>
> [Compliance with gluten free diet, physical development and bone
> mineral status in patients with celiac disease]
>
> [Article in Polish]
>
> Grzenda-Adamek Z, Piatkowska E, Strzepek J, Przybyszewska K,
Kruszewska
> M.
>
> Klinika Pediatrii Gastroenterologii i Zywienia, Polsko-Amerykanski
> Instytut Pediatrii Collegium Medicum Uniwersytetu Jagiellonskiego w
> Krakowie.
>
> OBJECTIVES: The aim of the study was the assessment of the influence
of
> a gluten free diet on physical development and bone mineral density
> (BMD) in patients with celiac disease. MATERIALS & METHODS: 59
patients
> (40 girls, 19 boys) aged 10-20 years with celiac disease, diagnosed
> according to ESPGAN criteria were included in the study. Patients
were
> divided in 3 groups: 1--strict gluten free diet, II--not entirely
> compliant i.e. faults in gluten free diet 1-2 times per week,
> III--gluten free diet not followed or frequent faults. Daily calcium
> (Ca) intake and physical activity was assessed. BMD of the lumbar
spine
> L2-L4 was measured by dual-energy-X-ray absorptiometry with LUNAR
> DPX-IQ. Physical development was assessed by anthropometric
> measurements: growth and weight. RESULTS: Gluten free diet was
strictly
> followed by 16 (27%) patients (group I), group II consisted of 23
(39%)
> patients. Diet was not followed by 20 (34%) patients. Thirty five
(59%)
> patients had low Ca intake and they made up the majority of the
> patients in every group. High physical activity declared 35 (59%)
> patients. No statistically significant differences in BMD were found
> between group I and II. BMD was lower in group III in comparison to
> group I (p = 0.01) and group II (p = 0.003). BMD was higher in
patients
> with high Ca intake (p = 0.002). Physical activity had no significant
> influence on BMD. There was no statistically significant difference
in
> physical development between groups. CONCLUSIONS: Majority of the
> patients with celiac disease did not strictly follow gluten free
diet.
> Poor compliance to the diet had no significant influence on physical
> development. BMD was lower in patients who were not compliant to the
> gluten free diet, occasional faults in the diet had no influence on
the
> BMD.
>
> PMID: 15052725 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
>
> **********************
>
>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=14684411
>
> Longitudinal changes in bone metabolism and bone mineral content in
> children with celiac disease during consumption of a gluten-free
diet.
>
> Barera G, Beccio S, Proverbio MC, Mora S.
>
> Department of Pediatrics, Scientific Institute H San Raffaele, Milan,
> Italy.
>
> BACKGROUND: A gluten-free diet (GFD) rapidly corrects the bone
mineral
> deficit of children with untreated celiac disease. The mechanisms
> underlying such changes are still poorly understood. OBJECTIVE: In a
> longitudinal study, we monitored changes in bone metabolism during
> consumption of a GFD. DESIGN: We studied 22 white patients with
celiac
> disease (11 girls) aged 10.5 +/- 1.0 y at the time of diagnosis. We
> compared bone metabolism and bone mass values in these patients with
> those in 428 healthy white children aged 11.3 +/- 0.2 y.
Bone-specific
> alkaline phosphatase (a bone formation index) and N-terminal
> telopeptide of type I collagen (NTx; a bone resorption marker) were
> measured at the time of diagnosis and after 2, 6, and 12 mo of the
GFD.
> Bone mineral content was measured at the lumbar spine and for the
whole
> skeleton. RESULTS: The bone mineral content of patients was
> significantly lower than that of control subjects at the time of
> diagnosis but not after 1 y of the GFD. Serum bone-specific alkaline
> phosphatase concentrations of patients were significantly lower than
> those of control subjects at the time of diagnosis (P = 0.0064) and
> increased gradually and significantly during the GFD (ANOVA F = 4.71;
P
> = 0.024). Conversely, patients with untreated disease had
significantly
> higher urinary concentrations of NTx than did healthy control
subjects
> (P < 0.0001). Urinary concentrations of NTx were not significantly
> affected by treatment (P = 0.37). CONCLUSIONS: The rate of bone
> metabolism is altered in children with untreated celiac disease, and
> these alterations may be the cause of osteopathy. Remarkable changes
> occur after the initiation of a GFD, and they result in a more
balanced
> equilibrium.
>
> Publication Types:
> Clinical Trial
>
> PMID: 14684411 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
>
> *************
>
> For more go to:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...arch&DB=pubmed
>
> ********
>
> It is not the presence or or absence of milk that is the problem, it
is
> the presence of gluten-containing foods in the diet. A diet high in
> gluten-containing grains causes low BMD, coeliac disease and many
other
> problems.
>
> TC

Actually the *original* study on milk and bone density done by the
dairy industry itself, discovered milk supplimentation of the diet left
the study group in negative calcium balance.
..
Once they found that out, the dairy industry has contrived to
manipulate data and skew findings to *prove* dairy does a body good.

wrote:
> Actually the *original* study on milk and bone density done by the
> dairy industry itself, discovered milk supplimentation of the diet
left
> the study group in negative calcium balance.
> .
> Once they found that out, the dairy industry has contrived to
> manipulate data and skew findings to *prove* dairy does a body good.

Negative calcium balance means less calcium than before, correct? What
is the mechanism leading to the deficit?

Animal protein sets up an acidic condition in the blood which requires
the body to leach calcium from the bone to correct the condition.

wrote:
> Actually the *original* study on milk and bone density done by the
> dairy industry itself, discovered milk supplimentation of the diet
left
> the study group in negative calcium balance.
> .
> Once they found that out, the dairy industry has contrived to
> manipulate data and skew findings to *prove* dairy does a body good.


DOne with pasteurized milk of course. Changes everything.

wrote:
> Animal protein sets up an acidic condition in the blood which
requires
> the body to leach calcium from the bone to correct the condition.

So it's the amount consumed, then. Amino acids are amino acids, whether
animal or vegetable. But animal sources being denser...

wrote in message roups.com>...
> Animal protein sets up an acidic condition in the blood which requires
> the body to leach calcium from the bone to correct the condition.

Nonsense, it's the grains that is the cause of low bone mieral density
and osteopososis.

Read the following:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15310538

Celiac disease manifesting as isolated hypocalcemia.

Rickels MR, Mandel SJ.

Division of Endocrinology, Diabetes and Metabolism, Department of
Medicine, University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, Philadelphia,
Pennsylvania 19104, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To describe a patient who presented with hypocalcemia and
hypocalciuria as the initial manifestations of celiac disease, despite
a normal vitamin D status. METHODS: We review the diagnostic
evaluation, treatment, and biochemical and bone mineral density
responses of a patient with asymptomatic celiac disease, which was
initially suggested because of a low serum calcium level that became
attributable to isolated malabsorption of calcium. RESULTS: A
36-year-old woman presented with hypocalcemia in the presence of
normal
serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D and high serum 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D
levels. She had hypocalciuria and secondary hyperparathyroidism that
were refractory to pharmacologic calcium and cholecalciferol
supplementation. Fecal calcium excretion indicated malabsorption of
calcium, and biopsy of the small intestine demonstrated pathologic
changes characteristic of celiac disease. Bone mineral density,
determined by dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry, was in the osteopenic
range at the femoral neck. The initiation of a gluten-free diet
resulted in correction of all biochemical abnormalities and a
substantial increase in bone mineral density. CONCLUSION: Primary
intestinal malabsorption of calcium without concomitant vitamin D
deficiency is possible in celiac disease because of the preferential
involvement of the proximal small intestine early in the disease
process. Our patient had hypocalcemia caused by celiac disease and
values for serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D and 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D that
were normal and elevated, respectively. Correction was demonstrated
after dietary gluten withdrawal.

***************

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15176994

Imbalance of osteoclastogenesis-regulating factors in patients with
celiac disease.

Taranta A, Fortunati D, Longo M, Rucci N, Iacomino E, Aliberti F,
Facciuto E, Migliaccio S, Bardella MT, Dubini A, Borghi MO, Saraifoger
S, Teti A, Bianchi ML.

Istituto Dermopatico dell'Immacolata, Istituto di Ricovero e Cura a
Carattere Scientifico, Roma, Italy.

Celiac disease is an autoimmune disorder characterized by atrophy of
the intestine villi triggered by ingestion of gluten in genetically
susceptible individuals. The association between celiac disease and
low
BMD has been recognized, but the mechanisms of disturbance are poorly
understood. We show imbalance of cytokines relevant to bone metabolism
in celiac patients' sera and the direct effect of these sera on in
vitro bone cell activity. INTRODUCTION: Celiac disease is associated
with mineral metabolism derangement and low BMD. We investigated
whether imbalance of serum factors in celiac patients could affect
human bone cell activity in vitro. MATERIALS AND METHODS: We studied
two groups of celiac patients--one on a gluten-free diet and another
before the diet--both with decreased bone mass. Patients were
investigated for bone turnover markers, and their sera were used for
culturing bone cells from healthy donors and evaluate changes in cell
activity. RESULTS: The N-terminal telopeptide of procollagen type I
and
interleukin (IL)-6 were higher than normal in patients not on the
gluten-free diet. IL-1beta and TNF-alpha/beta were normal in all
patients. IL-12 was reduced in all patients, whereas IL-18 was reduced
only in patients on the diet. The RANKL/osteoprotegerin (OPG) ratio
was
increased in patients not on the gluten-free diet. Persistently
increased osteoclast numbers were obtained from peripheral blood
mononuclear cells of healthy donors on incubation with sera of
patients
not on the gluten-free diet versus control sera and sera from patients
on the diet. In human osteoblasts from healthy individuals, IL-18 was
reduced on incubation with sera from all patients, whereas OPG
expression was lower when sera from patients not on the diet were
used.
Proliferation, alkaline phosphatase, and nodule mineralization were
increased in osteoblast cultures containing sera from all celiac
patients, either on or not on the gluten-free diet.Conclusions: We
conclude that bone loss in celiac disease might also be caused by a
cytokine imbalance directly affecting osteoclastogenesis and
osteoblast
activity.

PMID: 15176994 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

******************************

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15052725

[Compliance with gluten free diet, physical development and bone
mineral status in patients with celiac disease]

[Article in Polish]

Grzenda-Adamek Z, Piatkowska E, Strzepek J, Przybyszewska K,
Kruszewska
M.

Klinika Pediatrii Gastroenterologii i Zywienia, Polsko-Amerykanski
Instytut Pediatrii Collegium Medicum Uniwersytetu Jagiellonskiego w
Krakowie.

OBJECTIVES: The aim of the study was the assessment of the influence
of
a gluten free diet on physical development and bone mineral density
(BMD) in patients with celiac disease. MATERIALS & METHODS: 59
patients
(40 girls, 19 boys) aged 10-20 years with celiac disease, diagnosed
according to ESPGAN criteria were included in the study. Patients were
divided in 3 groups: 1--strict gluten free diet, II--not entirely
compliant i.e. faults in gluten free diet 1-2 times per week,
III--gluten free diet not followed or frequent faults. Daily calcium
(Ca) intake and physical activity was assessed. BMD of the lumbar
spine
L2-L4 was measured by dual-energy-X-ray absorptiometry with LUNAR
DPX-IQ. Physical development was assessed by anthropometric
measurements: growth and weight. RESULTS: Gluten free diet was
strictly
followed by 16 (27%) patients (group I), group II consisted of 23
(39%)
patients. Diet was not followed by 20 (34%) patients. Thirty five
(59%)
patients had low Ca intake and they made up the majority of the
patients in every group. High physical activity declared 35 (59%)
patients. No statistically significant differences in BMD were found
between group I and II. BMD was lower in group III in comparison to
group I (p = 0.01) and group II (p = 0.003). BMD was higher in
patients
with high Ca intake (p = 0.002). Physical activity had no significant
influence on BMD. There was no statistically significant difference in
physical development between groups. CONCLUSIONS: Majority of the
patients with celiac disease did not strictly follow gluten free diet.
Poor compliance to the diet had no significant influence on physical
development. BMD was lower in patients who were not compliant to the
gluten free diet, occasional faults in the diet had no influence on
the
BMD.

PMID: 15052725 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

**********************

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=14684411

Longitudinal changes in bone metabolism and bone mineral content in
children with celiac disease during consumption of a gluten-free diet.

Barera G, Beccio S, Proverbio MC, Mora S.

Department of Pediatrics, Scientific Institute H San Raffaele, Milan,
Italy.

BACKGROUND: A gluten-free diet (GFD) rapidly corrects the bone mineral
deficit of children with untreated celiac disease. The mechanisms
underlying such changes are still poorly understood. OBJECTIVE: In a
longitudinal study, we monitored changes in bone metabolism during
consumption of a GFD. DESIGN: We studied 22 white patients with celiac
disease (11 girls) aged 10.5 +/- 1.0 y at the time of diagnosis. We
compared bone metabolism and bone mass values in these patients with
those in 428 healthy white children aged 11.3 +/- 0.2 y. Bone-specific
alkaline phosphatase (a bone formation index) and N-terminal
telopeptide of type I collagen (NTx; a bone resorption marker) were
measured at the time of diagnosis and after 2, 6, and 12 mo of the
GFD.
Bone mineral content was measured at the lumbar spine and for the
whole
skeleton. RESULTS: The bone mineral content of patients was
significantly lower than that of control subjects at the time of
diagnosis but not after 1 y of the GFD. Serum bone-specific alkaline
phosphatase concentrations of patients were significantly lower than
those of control subjects at the time of diagnosis (P = 0.0064) and
increased gradually and significantly during the GFD (ANOVA F = 4.71;
P
= 0.024). Conversely, patients with untreated disease had
significantly
higher urinary concentrations of NTx than did healthy control subjects
(P < 0.0001). Urinary concentrations of NTx were not significantly
affected by treatment (P = 0.37). CONCLUSIONS: The rate of bone
metabolism is altered in children with untreated celiac disease, and
these alterations may be the cause of osteopathy. Remarkable changes
occur after the initiation of a GFD, and they result in a more
balanced
equilibrium.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial

PMID: 14684411 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

*************

For more go to:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...arch&DB=pubmed

do a search on "gluten bone density".

********

It is not the presence or or absence of milk or meat in the diet that
is the problem, it is the presence of gluten-containing foods in the
diet. A diet high in gluten-containing grains causes low BMD, coeliac
disease and many other
problems.

TC

wrote:
> Animal protein sets up an acidic condition in the blood which requires
> the body to leach calcium from the bone to correct the condition.

You know nothing about physiology. The proteins in meat are no different
than the ones found in plants -- proteins are made of amino acids. There
is no evidence to support your weird claims.

It is not either. It is any food that causes a acidic reaction in the blood
or tissues.
Gluten happens to be one of the worse ones.

"tcomeau" > wrote in message
om...
> wrote in message
roups.com>...
> > Animal protein sets up an acidic condition in the blood which requires
> > the body to leach calcium from the bone to correct the condition.
>
> Nonsense, it's the grains that is the cause of low bone mieral density
> and osteopososis.
>
> Read the following:
>
>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15310538
>
> Celiac disease manifesting as isolated hypocalcemia.
>
> Rickels MR, Mandel SJ.
>
> Division of Endocrinology, Diabetes and Metabolism, Department of
> Medicine, University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, Philadelphia,
> Pennsylvania 19104, USA.
>
> OBJECTIVE: To describe a patient who presented with hypocalcemia and
> hypocalciuria as the initial manifestations of celiac disease, despite
> a normal vitamin D status. METHODS: We review the diagnostic
> evaluation, treatment, and biochemical and bone mineral density
> responses of a patient with asymptomatic celiac disease, which was
> initially suggested because of a low serum calcium level that became
> attributable to isolated malabsorption of calcium. RESULTS: A
> 36-year-old woman presented with hypocalcemia in the presence of
> normal
> serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D and high serum 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D
> levels. She had hypocalciuria and secondary hyperparathyroidism that
> were refractory to pharmacologic calcium and cholecalciferol
> supplementation. Fecal calcium excretion indicated malabsorption of
> calcium, and biopsy of the small intestine demonstrated pathologic
> changes characteristic of celiac disease. Bone mineral density,
> determined by dual-energy x-ray absorptiometry, was in the osteopenic
> range at the femoral neck. The initiation of a gluten-free diet
> resulted in correction of all biochemical abnormalities and a
> substantial increase in bone mineral density. CONCLUSION: Primary
> intestinal malabsorption of calcium without concomitant vitamin D
> deficiency is possible in celiac disease because of the preferential
> involvement of the proximal small intestine early in the disease
> process. Our patient had hypocalcemia caused by celiac disease and
> values for serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D and 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D that
> were normal and elevated, respectively. Correction was demonstrated
> after dietary gluten withdrawal.
>
> ***************
>
>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15176994
>
> Imbalance of osteoclastogenesis-regulating factors in patients with
> celiac disease.
>
> Taranta A, Fortunati D, Longo M, Rucci N, Iacomino E, Aliberti F,
> Facciuto E, Migliaccio S, Bardella MT, Dubini A, Borghi MO, Saraifoger
> S, Teti A, Bianchi ML.
>
> Istituto Dermopatico dell'Immacolata, Istituto di Ricovero e Cura a
> Carattere Scientifico, Roma, Italy.
>
> Celiac disease is an autoimmune disorder characterized by atrophy of
> the intestine villi triggered by ingestion of gluten in genetically
> susceptible individuals. The association between celiac disease and
> low
> BMD has been recognized, but the mechanisms of disturbance are poorly
> understood. We show imbalance of cytokines relevant to bone metabolism
> in celiac patients' sera and the direct effect of these sera on in
> vitro bone cell activity. INTRODUCTION: Celiac disease is associated
> with mineral metabolism derangement and low BMD. We investigated
> whether imbalance of serum factors in celiac patients could affect
> human bone cell activity in vitro. MATERIALS AND METHODS: We studied
> two groups of celiac patients--one on a gluten-free diet and another
> before the diet--both with decreased bone mass. Patients were
> investigated for bone turnover markers, and their sera were used for
> culturing bone cells from healthy donors and evaluate changes in cell
> activity. RESULTS: The N-terminal telopeptide of procollagen type I
> and
> interleukin (IL)-6 were higher than normal in patients not on the
> gluten-free diet. IL-1beta and TNF-alpha/beta were normal in all
> patients. IL-12 was reduced in all patients, whereas IL-18 was reduced
> only in patients on the diet. The RANKL/osteoprotegerin (OPG) ratio
> was
> increased in patients not on the gluten-free diet. Persistently
> increased osteoclast numbers were obtained from peripheral blood
> mononuclear cells of healthy donors on incubation with sera of
> patients
> not on the gluten-free diet versus control sera and sera from patients
> on the diet. In human osteoblasts from healthy individuals, IL-18 was
> reduced on incubation with sera from all patients, whereas OPG
> expression was lower when sera from patients not on the diet were
> used.
> Proliferation, alkaline phosphatase, and nodule mineralization were
> increased in osteoblast cultures containing sera from all celiac
> patients, either on or not on the gluten-free diet.Conclusions: We
> conclude that bone loss in celiac disease might also be caused by a
> cytokine imbalance directly affecting osteoclastogenesis and
> osteoblast
> activity.
>
> PMID: 15176994 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
>
> ******************************
>
>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15052725
>
> [Compliance with gluten free diet, physical development and bone
> mineral status in patients with celiac disease]
>
> [Article in Polish]
>
> Grzenda-Adamek Z, Piatkowska E, Strzepek J, Przybyszewska K,
> Kruszewska
> M.
>
> Klinika Pediatrii Gastroenterologii i Zywienia, Polsko-Amerykanski
> Instytut Pediatrii Collegium Medicum Uniwersytetu Jagiellonskiego w
> Krakowie.
>
> OBJECTIVES: The aim of the study was the assessment of the influence
> of
> a gluten free diet on physical development and bone mineral density
> (BMD) in patients with celiac disease. MATERIALS & METHODS: 59
> patients
> (40 girls, 19 boys) aged 10-20 years with celiac disease, diagnosed
> according to ESPGAN criteria were included in the study. Patients were
> divided in 3 groups: 1--strict gluten free diet, II--not entirely
> compliant i.e. faults in gluten free diet 1-2 times per week,
> III--gluten free diet not followed or frequent faults. Daily calcium
> (Ca) intake and physical activity was assessed. BMD of the lumbar
> spine
> L2-L4 was measured by dual-energy-X-ray absorptiometry with LUNAR
> DPX-IQ. Physical development was assessed by anthropometric
> measurements: growth and weight. RESULTS: Gluten free diet was
> strictly
> followed by 16 (27%) patients (group I), group II consisted of 23
> (39%)
> patients. Diet was not followed by 20 (34%) patients. Thirty five
> (59%)
> patients had low Ca intake and they made up the majority of the
> patients in every group. High physical activity declared 35 (59%)
> patients. No statistically significant differences in BMD were found
> between group I and II. BMD was lower in group III in comparison to
> group I (p = 0.01) and group II (p = 0.003). BMD was higher in
> patients
> with high Ca intake (p = 0.002). Physical activity had no significant
> influence on BMD. There was no statistically significant difference in
> physical development between groups. CONCLUSIONS: Majority of the
> patients with celiac disease did not strictly follow gluten free diet.
> Poor compliance to the diet had no significant influence on physical
> development. BMD was lower in patients who were not compliant to the
> gluten free diet, occasional faults in the diet had no influence on
> the
> BMD.
>
> PMID: 15052725 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
>
> **********************
>
>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=14684411
>
> Longitudinal changes in bone metabolism and bone mineral content in
> children with celiac disease during consumption of a gluten-free diet.
>
> Barera G, Beccio S, Proverbio MC, Mora S.
>
> Department of Pediatrics, Scientific Institute H San Raffaele, Milan,
> Italy.
>
> BACKGROUND: A gluten-free diet (GFD) rapidly corrects the bone mineral
> deficit of children with untreated celiac disease. The mechanisms
> underlying such changes are still poorly understood. OBJECTIVE: In a
> longitudinal study, we monitored changes in bone metabolism during
> consumption of a GFD. DESIGN: We studied 22 white patients with celiac
> disease (11 girls) aged 10.5 +/- 1.0 y at the time of diagnosis. We
> compared bone metabolism and bone mass values in these patients with
> those in 428 healthy white children aged 11.3 +/- 0.2 y. Bone-specific
> alkaline phosphatase (a bone formation index) and N-terminal
> telopeptide of type I collagen (NTx; a bone resorption marker) were
> measured at the time of diagnosis and after 2, 6, and 12 mo of the
> GFD.
> Bone mineral content was measured at the lumbar spine and for the
> whole
> skeleton. RESULTS: The bone mineral content of patients was
> significantly lower than that of control subjects at the time of
> diagnosis but not after 1 y of the GFD. Serum bone-specific alkaline
> phosphatase concentrations of patients were significantly lower than
> those of control subjects at the time of diagnosis (P = 0.0064) and
> increased gradually and significantly during the GFD (ANOVA F = 4.71;
> P
> = 0.024). Conversely, patients with untreated disease had
> significantly
> higher urinary concentrations of NTx than did healthy control subjects
> (P < 0.0001). Urinary concentrations of NTx were not significantly
> affected by treatment (P = 0.37). CONCLUSIONS: The rate of bone
> metabolism is altered in children with untreated celiac disease, and
> these alterations may be the cause of osteopathy. Remarkable changes
> occur after the initiation of a GFD, and they result in a more
> balanced
> equilibrium.
>
> Publication Types:
> Clinical Trial
>
> PMID: 14684411 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
>
> *************
>
> For more go to:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...arch&DB=pubmed
>
> do a search on "gluten bone density".
>
> ********
>
> It is not the presence or or absence of milk or meat in the diet that
> is the problem, it is the presence of gluten-containing foods in the
> diet. A diet high in gluten-containing grains causes low BMD, coeliac
> disease and many other
> problems.
>
> TC

Amino acids were never mentioned or did you really think meat was only amino
acids?

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
> > Animal protein sets up an acidic condition in the blood which requires
> > the body to leach calcium from the bone to correct the condition.
>
> You know nothing about physiology. The proteins in meat are no different
> than the ones found in plants -- proteins are made of amino acids. There
> is no evidence to support your weird claims.

>
> "usual suspect" > wrote in message
> ...
> > wrote:
> > > Animal protein sets up an acidic condition in the blood which requires
> > > the body to leach calcium from the bone to correct the condition.
> >
> > You know nothing about physiology. The proteins in meat are no different
> > than the ones found in plants -- proteins are made of amino acids. There
> > is no evidence to support your weird claims.
>
>
"Piezo Guru" > wrote in message
news:1110470777.c3a0f9fda6cb2dd8ca56428a8a468feb@t eranews...
> Amino acids were never mentioned or did you really think meat was only
amino
> acids?


And what do YOU think protein is made of?
--
Dr. Dickie
Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
Poking kooks with a pointy stick.
"All men should strive to learn before they die,
what they are running from, and to, and why."
James Thurber

Piezo Guru wrote:
> Amino acids were never mentioned

WTF do you think proteins are made of, dumbass?

http://biology.clc.uc.edu/courses/bio104/protein.htm

> or did you really think meat was only amino
> acids?

Get your head out of your ass, you top-posting moron.

>>>Animal protein sets up an acidic condition in the blood which requires
>>>the body to leach calcium from the bone to correct the condition.
>>
>>You know nothing about physiology. The proteins in meat are no different
>>than the ones found in plants -- proteins are made of amino acids. There
>>is no evidence to support your weird claims.
>
>
>

On 9 Mar 2005 17:29:33 -0800, "jsn" > wrote:

>Negative calcium balance means less calcium than before, correct? What
>is the mechanism leading to the deficit?

It mean you loose more calcium than you eat. Usually the reason is
that you eat less calcium, or the uptake mechanism is impaired. Many
factors are involved in the process of taking up calcium from
intestines.

Even glutamate deficiency may impair uptake, like being physically
inactive, since the glutamate need by intestinal cells are produced
only by muscular activity. Probably one part of the mechanism why
physical activity increase bone mass, the other factor is the
mechanical stress that bone is presented for when you jump up and down
on the bones when walking. The stress induce most probably preventive
mechanism after microlesions that repair the microlesions and increase
bone strength.

doh! Gee I thought we were talking about meat and not protein.

I have bad news for ya' Dickless. Protein is not made of meat.

"Dr_Dickie" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>
> >
> > "usual suspect" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > wrote:
> > > > Animal protein sets up an acidic condition in the blood which
requires
> > > > the body to leach calcium from the bone to correct the condition.
> > >
> > > You know nothing about physiology. The proteins in meat are no
different
> > > than the ones found in plants -- proteins are made of amino acids.
There
> > > is no evidence to support your weird claims.
> >
> >
> "Piezo Guru" > wrote in message
> news:1110470777.c3a0f9fda6cb2dd8ca56428a8a468feb@t eranews...
> > Amino acids were never mentioned or did you really think meat was only
> amino
> > acids?
>
>
> And what do YOU think protein is made of?
> --
> Dr. Dickie
> Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
> Poking kooks with a pointy stick.
> "All men should strive to learn before they die,
> what they are running from, and to, and why."
> James Thurber
>
>

Get with the 80's ****face
<click>

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> Piezo Guru wrote:
> > Amino acids were never mentioned
>
> WTF do you think proteins are made of, dumbass?
>
> http://biology.clc.uc.edu/courses/bio104/protein.htm
>
> > or did you really think meat was only amino
> > acids?
>
> Get your head out of your ass, you top-posting moron.
>
> >>>Animal protein sets up an acidic condition in the blood which requires
> >>>the body to leach calcium from the bone to correct the condition.
> >>
> >>You know nothing about physiology. The proteins in meat are no different
> >>than the ones found in plants -- proteins are made of amino acids. There
> >>is no evidence to support your weird claims.
> >
> >
> >

Not true.
Your first two statements are nonsense in logic.

If you lose calcium it is usually because your body doesn't need it. This
results in high serum clacium levels. Do you think more dietary calcium
would help this? Simple logic there.

"Alf Christophersen" > wrote in message
...
> On 9 Mar 2005 17:29:33 -0800, "jsn" > wrote:
>
> >Negative calcium balance means less calcium than before, correct? What
> >is the mechanism leading to the deficit?
>
> It mean you loose more calcium than you eat. Usually the reason is
> that you eat less calcium, or the uptake mechanism is impaired. Many
> factors are involved in the process of taking up calcium from
> intestines.
>
> Even glutamate deficiency may impair uptake, like being physically
> inactive, since the glutamate need by intestinal cells are produced
> only by muscular activity. Probably one part of the mechanism why
> physical activity increase bone mass, the other factor is the
> mechanical stress that bone is presented for when you jump up and down
> on the bones when walking. The stress induce most probably preventive
> mechanism after microlesions that repair the microlesions and increase
> bone strength.
>

"Piezo Guru" > wrote in message
news:1110476410.719c38650cf63ff7848aed1dd95fde9c@t eranews...
> doh! Gee I thought we were talking about meat and not protein.
>
> I have bad news for ya' Dickless. Protein is not made of meat.
>
> > > ...
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Animal protein sets up an acidic condition in the blood which
> requires
> > > > > the body to leach calcium from the bone to correct the condition.
> > > >
> > > > You know nothing about physiology. The proteins in meat are no
> different
> > > > than the ones found in plants -- proteins are made of amino acids.
> There
> > > > is no evidence to support your weird claims.
> > >

And yet the line "Animal protein sets up..." in the OP confused you.

--
Dr. Dickie
Skepticult member in good standing #394-00596-438
Poking kooks with a pointy stick.
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries,
is not 'Eureka!' ('I found it!'), but rather 'hmm....that's funny...'"
- Isaac Asimov

jsn wrote:
> wrote:
> > Animal protein sets up an acidic condition in the blood which
> requires
> > the body to leach calcium from the bone to correct the condition.
>
> So it's the amount consumed, then. Amino acids are amino acids,
whether
> animal or vegetable. But animal sources being denser...

Wrong.
Animo acids from animal flesh come in the form of protein, not
individual amino acids. This protein is normally cooked making it
devoid of enzymes, organic minerals, and will be deranged, that is,
denatured and no longer containing many of the amino acids present in
the raw state.

Vegetable protein is a totally different form of protein and amino acid
combinations. Vegetable protein will be easier to digest, and will be
full of enzymes and needed minerals. Cooking it can also make it
enzyme inactive and mineral deficient. The smell of cabbage cooking is
the odor of the sulfur bearing amino acids decomposing.

The source and the preparation make all the difference in the world.

DrC PhD

Alf Christophersen wrote:
> On 9 Mar 2005 17:29:33 -0800, "jsn" > wrote:
>
> >Negative calcium balance means less calcium than before, correct?
What
> >is the mechanism leading to the deficit?
>
> It mean you loose more calcium than you eat. Usually the reason is
> that you eat less calcium, or the uptake mechanism is impaired. Many
> factors are involved in the process of taking up calcium from
> intestines.
>
> Even glutamate deficiency may impair uptake, like being physically
> inactive, since the glutamate need by intestinal cells are produced
> only by muscular activity. Probably one part of the mechanism why
> physical activity increase bone mass, the other factor is the
> mechanical stress that bone is presented for when you jump up and
down
> on the bones when walking. The stress induce most probably preventive
> mechanism after microlesions that repair the microlesions and
increase
> bone strength.

Thanks for the explanation. One question: How does mechanical stress on
feet and ankles increase bone density at other places in the body?

There are other factors as well. Cow milk has a low magnesium to
calcium ratio plus the pasteurization process binds protein and calcium
making the calcium unabsorpable to the bone.
..
Cow milk doesn't cut it as a human bone builder.

In article .com>,
> wrote:
>There are other factors as well. Cow milk has a low magnesium to
>calcium ratio plus the pasteurization process binds protein and calcium
>making the calcium unabsorpable to the bone.
>.
>Cow milk doesn't cut it as a human bone builder.

I suppose this also explains why calves are soon reduced to boneless
blobs sitting helplessly out in the fields.

[Yeah, I know that the calves aren't drinking pasteurized milk, but I
don't believe your claims about that, either.]

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

usual suspect wrote:
:: wrote:
::: Animal protein sets up an acidic condition in the blood which
::: requires the body to leach calcium from the bone to correct the
::: condition.
::
:: You know nothing about physiology. The proteins in meat are no
:: different than the ones found in plants -- proteins are made of
:: amino acids. There is no evidence to support your weird claims.

Actually there is evidence that animal proteins have more
sulphur-containing amino acids. Meat is also high in phosphorus. Both
leach more calcium from bones than vegetarian protein sources.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=2388095

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...t_uids=7391450

--
Juhana

As also does the phosphoric acid in sodas leach calcium from the body. Many
people drink only sodas.

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Animal protein sets up an acidic condition in the blood which requires
> the body to leach calcium from the bone to correct the condition.
>
>

On 10 Mar 2005 11:28:04 -0800, wrote:

>
>Vegetable protein is a totally different form of protein and amino acid
>combinations. Vegetable protein will be easier to digest, and will be
>full of enzymes and needed minerals. Cooking it can also make it
>enzyme inactive and mineral deficient. The smell of cabbage cooking is
>the odor of the sulfur bearing amino acids decomposing.

The odor comes from other sulphur compounds degrading, not cysteine.

And in general, proteins from raw vegetables are protected by rigid
cell walls and usually very little available for our peptidases etc,
while boiling break down these borders and make the protein available

And in general, most vegetables contain little or no lysine, making
children growth retarded (that's why some children never get higher
than 1 meter and 70, while other in the same family grows to 1.9 if
fed a mixed diet with both fish and meat in diet.) because lysine is
needed for complete protein synthesis.
On the other hand, too much lysine and sugar in diet is dangerous
since the two react together and form AGE, but mainly in elder people
if they eat too much lysine and especially sugar.(Maillard products,
also called browning products). Lately the arspartate and sugar
maillard end product, mostly formed by heating, but will also run in
our body if too much is present of them, especially sugar, like in
uncontrolled diabetes, is formation of acrylamide. On the other hand,
if you eat a lot of fish and shellfish, taurine will be the dominating
amino acid in cells, and will mostly react with the sugars, both
glucose and especially fructose, that is far more reactive with free
lysine groups in proteins than glucose, making it important for liver
to detoxify fructose immediately by converting it to glucose. The
taurine adduct seem to on the opposite side, to be a strong
anti-oxidant, while taurine is only a weak anti-oxidant, but mostly
being an indirect anti-oxidant by binding to iron and other metals in
a mixed complex with phosphate, blocking iron from participating in
Fenton reactions in the near vicinity of DNA (the phosphate groups of
DNA being one of the molecule)

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:44:30 -0500, "Piezo Guru" >
wrote:

>Not true.
>Your first two statements are nonsense in logic.
>
>If you lose calcium it is usually because your body doesn't need it. This
>results in high serum clacium levels. Do you think more dietary calcium
>would help this? Simple logic there.

You may eat as much calcium you like, but it doesn't help if it is
excreted in faeces. That is one of the outputs. The other output is
through urine. You forgot that.

If more is excreted than is eaten, you have a negative calcium
balance.

Or do you think we have a nuclear plant inside our body. In case, a
sensation!!

On 10 Mar 2005 13:56:59 -0800, "jsn" > wrote:

>
>Thanks for the explanation. One question: How does mechanical stress on
>feet and ankles increase bone density at other places in the body?

Most probalby through circulating stress hormones. Maybe of still
unknown type though. Not everything is known yet, even in physiology,
biochemistry etc.

Something analogy. It may be that this is a very ancient mechanism
even expressed in plants.

If you plant in your windowsill 5 tomato plants, lets say they are
formed by vegetative cuts from one singular mother plant and let them
grow in optimal conditions.
Do the following treatment:
First plant let grow untouched
Plant two is rubbed carefully on the stem once a day, plant two is
rubbed carefully twice a day,plant three 5 times a day, plant 4 10
times a day and the last 15 times a day.

After a few weeks (this experiment is also published in Salisbury and
Ross teachbook in plant physiology) the first plant will be long and
thin and prone to damages later on, plant two will be somewhat shorter
and a little thicker stem, and the most rubbed,will be short and have
thick stem, all due to physical stress.
Many tomato plant growers use this today to improve plant health by
letting air circulate around the plants (you could do about the same
experiment by blowing on the plants, it is the stress of wind that
gives the effect, not our CO2 content, which should on the opposite
have given longer and thinner plants) (That's why it is ok to talk
with the plants while watering them,if you like :-) )

This may be true but is there a point to ingesting more calcium products
then?

"Alf Christophersen" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 12:44:30 -0500, "Piezo Guru" >
> wrote:
>
> >Not true.
> >Your first two statements are nonsense in logic.
> >
> >If you lose calcium it is usually because your body doesn't need it. This
> >results in high serum clacium levels. Do you think more dietary calcium
> >would help this? Simple logic there.
>
> You may eat as much calcium you like, but it doesn't help if it is
> excreted in faeces. That is one of the outputs. The other output is
> through urine. You forgot that.
>
> If more is excreted than is eaten, you have a negative calcium
> balance.
>
> Or do you think we have a nuclear plant inside our body. In case, a
> sensation!!
>

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> There are other factors as well. Cow milk has a low magnesium to
> calcium ratio plus the pasteurization process binds protein and calcium
> making the calcium unabsorpable to the bone.
> .
> Cow milk doesn't cut it as a human bone builder.


It is a matter of context. In a refined diet that is high in meat and pure
sugars with few greens and nuts, the milk will
do less good. In diet with greens, nuts, seeds,
and whole grains, the milk will be just fine.


>

In article >,
George Lagergren > wrote:
> Topic: Discussion about dairy products
>
>> It is a matter of context. In a refined diet that is high in meat and pure
>> sugars with few greens and nuts, the milk will
>> do less good. In diet with greens, nuts, seeds,
>> and whole grains, the milk will be just fine.
>
> In reference to humans having a hard time digesting the
>heavy, thick protein in cow's milk, cow's milk can never be "just fine."

Just because you can't digest it says nothing about the rest of us.

Quit generalizing from your personal experience when you have no basis
for assuming your experience applies to anyone but you.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

"David Wright" > wrote in message
m...
> In article >,
> George Lagergren > wrote:
> > Topic: Discussion about dairy products
> >
> >> It is a matter of context. In a refined diet that is high in meat and
pure
> >> sugars with few greens and nuts, the milk will
> >> do less good. In diet with greens, nuts, seeds,
> >> and whole grains, the milk will be just fine.
> >
> > In reference to humans having a hard time digesting the
> >heavy, thick protein in cow's milk, cow's milk can never be "just fine."
>
> Just because you can't digest it says nothing about the rest of us.
>
> Quit generalizing from your personal experience when you have no basis
> for assuming your experience applies to anyone but you.

Nobody takes such idiotic generalizations serious. If they do then they are
in real trouble. Generalizations such as don't eat fruit because of the
sugar content are hysterical.

>
> -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
> These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
> "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
> were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)
>
>
>
>
>
>