I am newbie at eating vegetarian, eating lots of products with soy protein.
My friend says that means eating lots of estrogen. Being a guy, should I be
concerned? Is there anything to the notion of estrogen hormones in all the
soy products (Soy milk, Tofu dogs, etc)

Beowulf wrote:
> I am newbie at eating vegetarian, eating lots of products with soy
>protein. My friend says that means eating lots of estrogen. Being a
guy, >should I be concerned? Is there anything to the notion of
estrogen >hormones in all the soy products (Soy milk, Tofu dogs, etc)

Soy sucks, apart from the estrogen. I would rather eat meat than soy.

"Beowulf" > wrote in message
...
>I am newbie at eating vegetarian, eating lots of products with soy protein.
> My friend says that means eating lots of estrogen. Being a guy, should I
> be
> concerned? Is there anything to the notion of estrogen hormones in all the
> soy products (Soy milk, Tofu dogs, etc)

There is estrogen in soy buy you'd have to eat a LOT of it to make any
significant difference in your hormone balance. Soy is a good source of
complete protein and phytochemicals. So eat it in moderation (as with
everything) and enjoy it.

Beowulf wrote:
> I am newbie at eating vegetarian, eating lots of products with soy protein.
> My friend says that means eating lots of estrogen. Being a guy, should I be
> concerned?

No.





----------------------------------------------------------------------
From:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=11303585
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1: Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2001 Mar;10(3):179-84. Related
Articles, Links

Erratum in:

* Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev 2001 Sep;10(9):1013.


Effect of soymilk consumption on serum estrogen and androgen
concentrations in Japanese men.

Nagata C, Takatsuka N, Shimizu H, Hayashi H, Akamatsu T, Murase K.

Department of Public Health, Gifu University School of Medicine, Japan.

Soy consumption has been associated with a reduced risk of prostate
cancer. The mechanism for this association may involve the effect of soy
on the endocrine system. We conducted a randomized dietary intervention
study to determine the effects of soy consumption on serum levels of
steroid hormones in men. Thirty-five men were randomly assigned to
either a soymilk-supplemented group or a control group. The men in the
soy-supplemented group were asked to consume 400 ml of soymilk daily for
8 weeks. The men in the control group maintained their usual diet. Blood
samples were obtained just before the initiation of the dietary period
and thereafter every two weeks for 12 weeks. Changes in hormone
concentrations were analyzed and compared between the two groups using
the mixed linear regression model against weeks from the start of the
dietary period. The mean (SD) soymilk intake estimated from dietary
records during the dietary study period was 342.9 (SD, 74.2) ml in the
soymilk-supplemented group. There was a significant difference between
the two groups in terms of changes in serum estrone concentrations,
which tended to decrease in the soy-supplemented group and increase in
the control group over time. None of the other hormones measured
(estradiol, total and free-testosterone, or sex hormone-binding
globulin) showed any statistical difference between the two groups in
terms of patterns of change. The results of the study indicate that
soymilk consumption may modify circulating estrone concentrations in men.

Publication Types:

* Clinical Trial
* Randomized Controlled Trial


PMID: 11303585 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


----------------------------------------------------------------------
From:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=11880595
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1: J Nutr. 2002 Mar;132(3):570S-573S. Related Articles, Links

Hormonal effects of soy in premenopausal women and men.

Kurzer MS.

Department of Food Science and Nutrition, University of Minnesota,
St. Paul, MN 55108, USA.

Over the past few years, there has been increasing interest in the
possible hormonal effects of soy and soy isoflavone consumption in both
women and men. Soy consumption has been suggested to exert potentially
cancer-preventive effects in premenopausal women, such as increased
menstrual cycle length and sex hormone-binding globulin levels and
decreased estrogen levels. There has been some concern that consumption
of phytoestrogens might exert adverse effects on men's fertility, such
as lowered testosterone levels and semen quality. The studies in women
have provided modest support for beneficial effects. One cross-sectional
study showed serum estrogens to be inversely associated with soy intake.
Seven soy intervention studies controlled for phase of menstrual cycle.
These studies provided 32-200 mg/d of isoflavones and generally showed
decreased midcycle plasma gonadotropins and trends toward increased
menstrual cycle length and decreased blood concentrations of estradiol,
progesterone and sex hormone-binding globulin. A few studies also showed
decreased urinary estrogens and increased ratios of urinary 2-(OH) to
16alpha-(OH) and 2-(OH) to 4-(OH) estrogens. Soy and isoflavone
consumption does not seem to affect the endometrium in premenopausal
women, although there have been weak estrogenic effects reported in the
breast. Thus, studies in women have mostly been consistent with
beneficial effects, although the magnitude of the effects is quite small
and of uncertain significance. Only three intervention studies reported
hormonal effects of soy isoflavones in men. These recent studies in men
consuming soyfoods or supplements containing 40--70 mg/d of soy
isoflavones showed few effects on plasma hormones or semen quality.
These data do not support concerns about effects on reproductive
hormones and semen quality.

Publication Types:

* Review
* Review, Tutorial


PMID: 11880595 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12094627
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1: Nutr Cancer. 2001;41(1-2):41-6. Related Articles, Links

Soy milk intake in relation to serum sex hormone levels in British men.

Allen NE, Appleby PN, Davey GK, Key TJ.

Cancer Research UK Epidemiology Unit, University of Oxford, Oxford
OX2 6HE, UK.

Soy beans contain high levels of the isoflavones genistein and
daidzein and their glycosides and have been implicated in the prevention
of prostate cancer, possibly via their effects on sex hormone
metabolism. The aim of this study was to assess the relation between
dietary soy intake and sex hormone levels in a cross-sectional analysis
of 696 men with a wide range of soy intakes. Soy milk intake was
measured using a validated semiquantitative food frequency
questionnaire, and serum hormone concentrations were measured by
immunoassay. Multiple regression was used to investigate the association
between soy milk intake, an index of isoflavone intake, and hormone
levels after adjustment for pertinent confounders. Soy milk intake was
not associated with serum concentrations of testosterone, free
testosterone, androstanediol glucuronide, sex hormone-binding globulin,
or luteinizing hormone. These results suggest that soy milk intake, as a
marker of isoflavone intake, is not associated with serum sex hormone
concentrations among free-living Western men.

PMID: 12094627 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From:
http://www.postgazette.com/pg/04167/331753.stm
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Eat your soy, boys
A food that's good for girls is good for guys, too

Tuesday, June 15, 2004
By Sally Squires, The Washington Post

Yes, it's true that your wife, girlfriend or significant other has been
eating a lot of soy lately, mainly to boost her female hormones. That
doesn't mean it's bad for you, fella. Instead of pushing aside that soy
milk, go ahead and pour some on your morning cereal. Dig into the soy
burgers at the office cafeteria and the tofu that appears in your
takeout stir-fry.

There is strong evidence that the risk of prostate cancer may be reduced
by eating soy products such as these: plain soy milk and organic soy
non-dairy frozen dessert.
Click photo for larger image.

Benefits for men of a diet that includes soy

It turns out that soy, at least in the doses most people will consume it
in food, may be good for guys, too. A growing number of studies suggest
that soy has plenty of health benefits for men -- from lowering
cholesterol levels to protecting against prostate cancer -- and few
downsides.

"Real men should eat soy," said Kenneth Setchell, professor of
pediatrics at the Cincinnati Children's Medical Center, who has studied
soy for 30 years. "Generally, men are put off by soy. It tends to be
sort of a woman's thing. That's a great pity, because the evidence that
soy protects against prostate cancer is quite strong."

While there have been worries that men who consume large quantities of
low-carb soy bread, soy cereal or other soy-filled foods may get a
little too in touch with their feminine sides, research findings have
generally not borne out those fears.

"Soy is a very healthy food," said physician James Anderson, who has
studied soy for 15 years at the University of Kentucky in Lexington and
is convinced enough of its benefits to eat about a dozen servings per
week. "It's very safe."

Most concerns about soy have centered around the fact that it is a rich
source of isoflavones, substances that mimic the effects of the female
hormone estrogen. To determine what these plant-based chemicals might
do, Steven Zeisel and his colleagues at the University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill fed megadoses of soy to men as part of a recent National
Cancer Institute study.

Nipple discharge, breast enlargement and slight decreases in
testosterone occurred with the megadoses. But "we still couldn't find
anything that was serious, and we went up to doses that are probably 30
times what you could get from normal foods," Zeisel said.

And if you stick with foods rich in soy as opposed to supplements,
researchers say, there's no evidence of harm, unless you happen to be
among the one in every 1,000 people who are allergic to soy.

Not only is soy a rich source of high-quality protein, it also contains
complex carbohydrates that don't raise blood sugar as high as more
processed carbohydrates. It has fiber, folic acid (a key B vitamin),
healthy fat and antioxidants that help protect against cancer.

There's also evidence that soy acts as a probiotic in some people,
promoting growth of healthy bacteria in the gastrointestinal tract that
in turn produce health-promoting substances. It only takes a small
amount of soy to produce health benefits. Less than a handful of soy
nuts, about a fifth of a cup, provides 12 grams of protein, said
Anderson, who keeps a stash near his desk for snacks.

Just resist any urge to eat raw soy. Uncooked soybeans contain a
substance that inhibits trypsin, a key enzyme required for protein
digestion.


-------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve

Be A Healthy Vegan Or Vegetarian
http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdo...ealthyVeg.html

Steve's Home Page
http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdom/

"The great American thought trap: It is not real
unless it can be seen on television or bought in a
shopping mall"

Beowulf wrote:
> I am newbie at eating vegetarian, eating lots of products with soy protein.
> My friend says that means eating lots of estrogen. Being a guy, should I be
> concerned?

No.





----------------------------------------------------------------------
From:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=11303585
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1: Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2001 Mar;10(3):179-84. Related
Articles, Links

Erratum in:

* Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev 2001 Sep;10(9):1013.


Effect of soymilk consumption on serum estrogen and androgen
concentrations in Japanese men.

Nagata C, Takatsuka N, Shimizu H, Hayashi H, Akamatsu T, Murase K.

Department of Public Health, Gifu University School of Medicine, Japan.

Soy consumption has been associated with a reduced risk of prostate
cancer. The mechanism for this association may involve the effect of soy
on the endocrine system. We conducted a randomized dietary intervention
study to determine the effects of soy consumption on serum levels of
steroid hormones in men. Thirty-five men were randomly assigned to
either a soymilk-supplemented group or a control group. The men in the
soy-supplemented group were asked to consume 400 ml of soymilk daily for
8 weeks. The men in the control group maintained their usual diet. Blood
samples were obtained just before the initiation of the dietary period
and thereafter every two weeks for 12 weeks. Changes in hormone
concentrations were analyzed and compared between the two groups using
the mixed linear regression model against weeks from the start of the
dietary period. The mean (SD) soymilk intake estimated from dietary
records during the dietary study period was 342.9 (SD, 74.2) ml in the
soymilk-supplemented group. There was a significant difference between
the two groups in terms of changes in serum estrone concentrations,
which tended to decrease in the soy-supplemented group and increase in
the control group over time. None of the other hormones measured
(estradiol, total and free-testosterone, or sex hormone-binding
globulin) showed any statistical difference between the two groups in
terms of patterns of change. The results of the study indicate that
soymilk consumption may modify circulating estrone concentrations in men.

Publication Types:

* Clinical Trial
* Randomized Controlled Trial


PMID: 11303585 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


----------------------------------------------------------------------
From:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=11880595
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1: J Nutr. 2002 Mar;132(3):570S-573S. Related Articles, Links

Hormonal effects of soy in premenopausal women and men.

Kurzer MS.

Department of Food Science and Nutrition, University of Minnesota,
St. Paul, MN 55108, USA.

Over the past few years, there has been increasing interest in the
possible hormonal effects of soy and soy isoflavone consumption in both
women and men. Soy consumption has been suggested to exert potentially
cancer-preventive effects in premenopausal women, such as increased
menstrual cycle length and sex hormone-binding globulin levels and
decreased estrogen levels. There has been some concern that consumption
of phytoestrogens might exert adverse effects on men's fertility, such
as lowered testosterone levels and semen quality. The studies in women
have provided modest support for beneficial effects. One cross-sectional
study showed serum estrogens to be inversely associated with soy intake.
Seven soy intervention studies controlled for phase of menstrual cycle.
These studies provided 32-200 mg/d of isoflavones and generally showed
decreased midcycle plasma gonadotropins and trends toward increased
menstrual cycle length and decreased blood concentrations of estradiol,
progesterone and sex hormone-binding globulin. A few studies also showed
decreased urinary estrogens and increased ratios of urinary 2-(OH) to
16alpha-(OH) and 2-(OH) to 4-(OH) estrogens. Soy and isoflavone
consumption does not seem to affect the endometrium in premenopausal
women, although there have been weak estrogenic effects reported in the
breast. Thus, studies in women have mostly been consistent with
beneficial effects, although the magnitude of the effects is quite small
and of uncertain significance. Only three intervention studies reported
hormonal effects of soy isoflavones in men. These recent studies in men
consuming soyfoods or supplements containing 40--70 mg/d of soy
isoflavones showed few effects on plasma hormones or semen quality.
These data do not support concerns about effects on reproductive
hormones and semen quality.

Publication Types:

* Review
* Review, Tutorial


PMID: 11880595 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=12094627
----------------------------------------------------------------------
1: Nutr Cancer. 2001;41(1-2):41-6. Related Articles, Links

Soy milk intake in relation to serum sex hormone levels in British men.

Allen NE, Appleby PN, Davey GK, Key TJ.

Cancer Research UK Epidemiology Unit, University of Oxford, Oxford
OX2 6HE, UK.

Soy beans contain high levels of the isoflavones genistein and
daidzein and their glycosides and have been implicated in the prevention
of prostate cancer, possibly via their effects on sex hormone
metabolism. The aim of this study was to assess the relation between
dietary soy intake and sex hormone levels in a cross-sectional analysis
of 696 men with a wide range of soy intakes. Soy milk intake was
measured using a validated semiquantitative food frequency
questionnaire, and serum hormone concentrations were measured by
immunoassay. Multiple regression was used to investigate the association
between soy milk intake, an index of isoflavone intake, and hormone
levels after adjustment for pertinent confounders. Soy milk intake was
not associated with serum concentrations of testosterone, free
testosterone, androstanediol glucuronide, sex hormone-binding globulin,
or luteinizing hormone. These results suggest that soy milk intake, as a
marker of isoflavone intake, is not associated with serum sex hormone
concentrations among free-living Western men.

PMID: 12094627 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From:
http://www.postgazette.com/pg/04167/331753.stm
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Eat your soy, boys
A food that's good for girls is good for guys, too

Tuesday, June 15, 2004
By Sally Squires, The Washington Post

Yes, it's true that your wife, girlfriend or significant other has been
eating a lot of soy lately, mainly to boost her female hormones. That
doesn't mean it's bad for you, fella. Instead of pushing aside that soy
milk, go ahead and pour some on your morning cereal. Dig into the soy
burgers at the office cafeteria and the tofu that appears in your
takeout stir-fry.

There is strong evidence that the risk of prostate cancer may be reduced
by eating soy products such as these: plain soy milk and organic soy
non-dairy frozen dessert.
Click photo for larger image.

Benefits for men of a diet that includes soy

It turns out that soy, at least in the doses most people will consume it
in food, may be good for guys, too. A growing number of studies suggest
that soy has plenty of health benefits for men -- from lowering
cholesterol levels to protecting against prostate cancer -- and few
downsides.

"Real men should eat soy," said Kenneth Setchell, professor of
pediatrics at the Cincinnati Children's Medical Center, who has studied
soy for 30 years. "Generally, men are put off by soy. It tends to be
sort of a woman's thing. That's a great pity, because the evidence that
soy protects against prostate cancer is quite strong."

While there have been worries that men who consume large quantities of
low-carb soy bread, soy cereal or other soy-filled foods may get a
little too in touch with their feminine sides, research findings have
generally not borne out those fears.

"Soy is a very healthy food," said physician James Anderson, who has
studied soy for 15 years at the University of Kentucky in Lexington and
is convinced enough of its benefits to eat about a dozen servings per
week. "It's very safe."

Most concerns about soy have centered around the fact that it is a rich
source of isoflavones, substances that mimic the effects of the female
hormone estrogen. To determine what these plant-based chemicals might
do, Steven Zeisel and his colleagues at the University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill fed megadoses of soy to men as part of a recent National
Cancer Institute study.

Nipple discharge, breast enlargement and slight decreases in
testosterone occurred with the megadoses. But "we still couldn't find
anything that was serious, and we went up to doses that are probably 30
times what you could get from normal foods," Zeisel said.

And if you stick with foods rich in soy as opposed to supplements,
researchers say, there's no evidence of harm, unless you happen to be
among the one in every 1,000 people who are allergic to soy.

Not only is soy a rich source of high-quality protein, it also contains
complex carbohydrates that don't raise blood sugar as high as more
processed carbohydrates. It has fiber, folic acid (a key B vitamin),
healthy fat and antioxidants that help protect against cancer.

There's also evidence that soy acts as a probiotic in some people,
promoting growth of healthy bacteria in the gastrointestinal tract that
in turn produce health-promoting substances. It only takes a small
amount of soy to produce health benefits. Less than a handful of soy
nuts, about a fifth of a cup, provides 12 grams of protein, said
Anderson, who keeps a stash near his desk for snacks.

Just resist any urge to eat raw soy. Uncooked soybeans contain a
substance that inhibits trypsin, a key enzyme required for protein
digestion.


-------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve

Be A Healthy Vegan Or Vegetarian
http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdo...ealthyVeg.html

Steve's Home Page
http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdom/

"The great American thought trap: It is not real
unless it can be seen on television or bought in a
shopping mall"

"Beowulf" > wrote in message
...
> I am newbie at eating vegetarian, eating lots of products with soy
protein.
> My friend says that means eating lots of estrogen. Being a guy, should I
be
> concerned? Is there anything to the notion of estrogen hormones in all the
> soy products (Soy milk, Tofu dogs, etc)
no-don't worry-been a vegetarian for over 20years-no problem-wife and 20
year old daughter also-lift weights etc. no problem
Michael

Beowulf wrote:
> I am newbie at eating vegetarian, eating lots of products with soy protein.
> My friend says that means eating lots of estrogen. Being a guy, should I be
> concerned? Is there anything to the notion of estrogen hormones in all the
> soy products (Soy milk, Tofu dogs, etc)

Soy has phytoestrogens. Estrogens are feminizing. Some studies have
shown that overconsumption of soy can lead to feminizing of males:

Rat pups, exposed to high doses of the plant estrogen coumestrol
(found in sunflower seeds and oil and alfalfa sprouts) through
their mother's milk, suffered permanent reproductive problems:
female pups when grown did not ovulate, and males had altered
mounting behavior and fewer ejaculations (2).
[Whitten, P., C. Lewis and F. Naftolin. 1993. A Phytoestrogen
diet induces the premature anovulatory syndrome in lactationally
exposed female rats. Biology of Reproduction 49:1117-21.]

Neonatal and immature rats exposed to coumestrol experienced
estrogen-related responses, such as premature estrous cycles.
Coumestrol also interrupted ovarian cycles in adult female rats
(3).
[Barrett, J. 1996. Phytoestrogens: Friends or Foes?
Environmental Health Perspectives 104:478-82.]

Newborn rats exposed to the phytoestrogen genistein (a compound
found in soy products), experienced altered hormone secretions
and the onset of puberty may have been delayed because female
rats were exposed to the compound as fetuses (3).
[Ibid.]

“In males, levels of 17B-estradiol and testosterone were not
affected, but levels of 3a, 17B- androstanediol glucuronide (a
metabolite of dihydrotestosterone) and dehydroepiandrosterone
sulfate were decreased by 13% and 14%, respectively, after 2-4
weeks of daily soya ingestion.”
[Supported by USPHS CA56273, CA65628, CA45181, John Sealy
Memorial Endowment Fund for Biomedical Research, American
Institute for Cancer Research grant 95B119, and NIH NCRR GCRC
grant M01 RR00073]

All above lifted from:
http://www.cheapbodybuildingsuppleme...estrogen.shtml

Additionally, see:
http://www.t-mag.com/articles/185soy.html
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter6.htm

A little soy might be beneficial, but you may not want shrinking
testicles. Too much of a good thing can be bad.

shroomer wrote:
>>I am newbie at eating vegetarian, eating lots of products with soy protein.
>>My friend says that means eating lots of estrogen. Being a guy, should I
>>be concerned? Is there anything to the notion of estrogen hormones in all the
>>soy products (Soy milk, Tofu dogs, etc)
>
> There is estrogen in soy buy you'd have to eat a LOT of it to make any
> significant difference in your hormone balance.

How much is "a LOT"?

Rat pups, exposed to high doses of the plant estrogen coumestrol
(found in sunflower seeds and oil and alfalfa sprouts) through
their mother's milk, suffered permanent reproductive problems:
female pups when grown did not ovulate, and males had altered
mounting behavior and fewer ejaculations (2).
[Whitten, P., C. Lewis and F. Naftolin. 1993. A Phytoestrogen
diet induces the premature anovulatory syndrome in lactationally
exposed female rats. Biology of Reproduction 49:1117-21.]

Neonatal and immature rats exposed to coumestrol experienced
estrogen-related responses, such as premature estrous cycles.
Coumestrol also interrupted ovarian cycles in adult female rats
(3).
[Barrett, J. 1996. Phytoestrogens: Friends or Foes?
Environmental Health Perspectives 104:478-82.]

Newborn rats exposed to the phytoestrogen genistein (a compound
found in soy products), experienced altered hormone secretions
and the onset of puberty may have been delayed because female
rats were exposed to the compound as fetuses (3).
[Ibid.]

“In males, levels of 17B-estradiol and testosterone were not
affected, but levels of 3a, 17B- androstanediol glucuronide (a
metabolite of dihydrotestosterone) and dehydroepiandrosterone
sulfate were decreased by 13% and 14%, respectively, after 2-4
weeks of daily soya ingestion.”
[Supported by USPHS CA56273, CA65628, CA45181, John Sealy
Memorial Endowment Fund for Biomedical Research, American
Institute for Cancer Research grant 95B119, and NIH NCRR GCRC
grant M01 RR00073]

All above lifted from:
http://www.cheapbodybuildingsuppleme...estrogen.shtml

Additionally, see:
http://www.t-mag.com/articles/185soy.html
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter6.htm

> Soy is a good source of complete protein

So are eggs, especially if you only eat the whites. Egg whites lack the
phytoestrogen found in soy and have no fat (soy is very fatty) or
cholesterol.

> and phytochemicals.

It's the phytochemicals in soy that are at issue. Estrogens are chemicals.

> So eat it in moderation (as with
> everything) and enjoy it.

Don't you mean everything except meat, eggs, dairy? Hardly seems right
to advocate moderation in a group dedicated to dietary extremism. ;-)

Steve wrote:
>> I am newbie at eating vegetarian, eating lots of products with soy
>> protein.
>> My friend says that means eating lots of estrogen. Being a guy, should
>> I be
>> concerned?
>
> No.

Yes. Over-consumption of soy products can lead to feminizing since soy
is rich in phytoestrogens. There are some studies on such effects of soy:

Rat pups, exposed to high doses of the plant estrogen coumestrol
(found in sunflower seeds and oil and alfalfa sprouts) through
their mother's milk, suffered permanent reproductive problems:
female pups when grown did not ovulate, and males had altered
mounting behavior and fewer ejaculations (2).
[Whitten, P., C. Lewis and F. Naftolin. 1993. A Phytoestrogen
diet induces the premature anovulatory syndrome in lactationally
exposed female rats. Biology of Reproduction 49:1117-21.]

Neonatal and immature rats exposed to coumestrol experienced
estrogen-related responses, such as premature estrous cycles.
Coumestrol also interrupted ovarian cycles in adult female rats
(3).
[Barrett, J. 1996. Phytoestrogens: Friends or Foes?
Environmental Health Perspectives 104:478-82.]

Newborn rats exposed to the phytoestrogen genistein (a compound
found in soy products), experienced altered hormone secretions
and the onset of puberty may have been delayed because female
rats were exposed to the compound as fetuses (3).
[Ibid.]

“In males, levels of 17B-estradiol and testosterone were not
affected, but levels of 3a, 17B- androstanediol glucuronide (a
metabolite of dihydrotestosterone) and dehydroepiandrosterone
sulfate were decreased by 13% and 14%, respectively, after 2-4
weeks of daily soya ingestion.”
[Supported by USPHS CA56273, CA65628, CA45181, John Sealy
Memorial Endowment Fund for Biomedical Research, American
Institute for Cancer Research grant 95B119, and NIH NCRR GCRC
grant M01 RR00073]

All above lifted from:
http://www.cheapbodybuildingsuppleme...estrogen.shtml

Additionally, see:
http://www.t-mag.com/articles/185soy.html
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter6.htm

Got tits, Steve?

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> shroomer wrote:
>>>I am newbie at eating vegetarian, eating lots of products with soy
>>>protein.
>>>My friend says that means eating lots of estrogen. Being a guy, should I
>>>be concerned? Is there anything to the notion of estrogen hormones in all
>>>the
>>>soy products (Soy milk, Tofu dogs, etc)
>>
>> There is estrogen in soy buy you'd have to eat a LOT of it to make any
>> significant difference in your hormone balance.
>
> How much is "a LOT"?

I read somewhere it takes on the order of 30 times a normal serving.

>> Soy is a good source of complete protein
>
> So are eggs, especially if you only eat the whites. Egg whites lack the
> phytoestrogen found in soy and have no fat (soy is very fatty) or
> cholesterol.

We're not talking about eggs, the OP asked about soy. See above.

>> So eat it in moderation (as with everything) and enjoy it.
>
> Don't you mean everything except meat, eggs, dairy? Hardly seems right to
> advocate moderation in a group dedicated to dietary extremism. ;-)

I said what I meant - SOY, not meat, eggs, or dairy. You don't belong here,
do you?

"shroomer" > wrote in message
...
>
> "usual suspect" > wrote in message
> ...
>> shroomer wrote:
>>>>I am newbie at eating vegetarian, eating lots of products
>>>>with soy protein.
>>>>My friend says that means eating lots of estrogen. Being a
>>>>guy, should I be concerned? Is there anything to the notion
>>>>of estrogen hormones in all the
>>>>soy products (Soy milk, Tofu dogs, etc)
>>>
>>> There is estrogen in soy buy you'd have to eat a LOT of it to
>>> make any significant difference in your hormone balance.
>>
>> How much is "a LOT"?
>
> I read somewhere it takes on the order of 30 times a normal
> serving.
=================
"somewhere" eh?


>
>>> Soy is a good source of complete protein
>>
>> So are eggs, especially if you only eat the whites. Egg whites
>> lack the phytoestrogen found in soy and have no fat (soy is
>> very fatty) or cholesterol.
>
> We're not talking about eggs, the OP asked about soy. See
> above.
>
>>> So eat it in moderation (as with everything) and enjoy it.
>>
>> Don't you mean everything except meat, eggs, dairy? Hardly
>> seems right to advocate moderation in a group dedicated to
>> dietary extremism. ;-)
>
> I said what I meant - SOY, not meat, eggs, or dairy. You don't
> belong here, do you?
================
Why not?


>
>

shroomer wrote:
>>>>I am newbie at eating vegetarian, eating lots of products with soy
>>>>protein.
>>>>My friend says that means eating lots of estrogen. Being a guy, should I
>>>>be concerned? Is there anything to the notion of estrogen hormones in all
>>>>the
>>>>soy products (Soy milk, Tofu dogs, etc)
>>>
>>>There is estrogen in soy buy you'd have to eat a LOT of it to make any
>>>significant difference in your hormone balance.
>>
>>How much is "a LOT"?
>
> I read somewhere it takes on the order of 30 times a normal serving.

Perhaps you can try to remember where you read it so others can read it
for themselves. Else I'll have to comment on the studies about soy and
dementia...

>>>Soy is a good source of complete protein
>>
>>So are eggs, especially if you only eat the whites. Egg whites lack the
>>phytoestrogen found in soy and have no fat (soy is very fatty) or
>>cholesterol.
>
> We're not talking about eggs, the OP asked about soy. See above.

You brought up complete protein, so it's fair to point out that there
are better sources of 'complete protein.' Those sources would include
lean meats, eggs, and reduced fat dairy -- all of which offer
nutritional benefits not found in soy (B12, lack of phytates so iron is
easily absorbed, etc.) without the phytoestrogen.

>>>So eat it in moderation (as with everything) and enjoy it.
>>
>>Don't you mean everything except meat, eggs, dairy? Hardly seems right to
>>advocate moderation in a group dedicated to dietary extremism. ;-)
>
> I said what I meant - SOY, not meat, eggs, or dairy.

You said AS WITH EVERYTHING. So why do you now exclude SOME things?

> You don't belong here,

Yes, I do.

Michael Balarama wrote:
...
> no-don't worry-been a vegetarian for over 20years-no problem-wife and 20
> year old daughter also-lift weights etc. no problem
> Michael

So you did not notice any loss of libido, etc from eating soybean products,
soy protein, as a part of your diet? It is just that I am noticing soy
protein is a lot of the vegetarian products I am buying and using: Tofu for
stir-fry, Tofu Dogs, fake hamburger, fake sausage, fake bacon, etc. Those
products are making the switch to vegetarianism rather easy, I would hate
to give those up. Just do not want to lose libido or have erectile
dysfuntion issues from soy protein.

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> shroomer wrote:
>>>>>I am newbie at eating vegetarian, eating lots of products with soy
>>>>>protein.
>>>>>My friend says that means eating lots of estrogen. Being a guy, should
>>>>>I be concerned? Is there anything to the notion of estrogen hormones in
>>>>>all the
>>>>>soy products (Soy milk, Tofu dogs, etc)
>>>>
>>>>There is estrogen in soy buy you'd have to eat a LOT of it to make any
>>>>significant difference in your hormone balance.
>>>
>>>How much is "a LOT"?
>>
>> I read somewhere it takes on the order of 30 times a normal serving.
>
> Perhaps you can try to remember where you read it so others can read it
> for themselves. Else I'll have to comment on the studies about soy and
> dementia...

This excerpted from the Washington Post, May 4, 2004. pg. F.01, authored by
Sally Squires.

"Soy is a very healthy food," said physician James Anderson, who has studied
soy for 15 years at the University of Kentucky in Lexington and is convinced
enough of its benefits to eat about a dozen servings per week. "It's very
safe."
Most concerns about soy have centered around the fact that it is a rich
source of isoflavones, substances that mimic the effects of the female
hormone estrogen. To determine what these plant-based chemicals might do,
Steven Zeisel and his colleagues at the University of North Carolina at
Chapel Hill fed megadoses of soy to men as part of a recent National Cancer
Institute study.

Nipple discharge, breast enlargement and slight decreases in testosterone
occurred with the megadoses. But "we still couldn't find anything that was
serious, and we went up to doses that are probably 30 times what you could
get from normal foods," Zeisel said.

>>>>Soy is a good source of complete protein
>>>
>>>So are eggs, especially if you only eat the whites. Egg whites lack the
>>>phytoestrogen found in soy and have no fat (soy is very fatty) or
>>>cholesterol.
>>
>> We're not talking about eggs, the OP asked about soy. See above.
>
> You brought up complete protein, so it's fair to point out that there are
> better sources of 'complete protein.' Those sources would include lean
> meats, eggs, and reduced fat dairy -- all of which offer nutritional
> benefits not found in soy (B12, lack of phytates so iron is easily
> absorbed, etc.) without the phytoestrogen.

Great. You are welcome to eat all the meats, eggs and dairy that you wish
and I will be happy with soy and other sources of plant protein.

>>>>So eat it in moderation (as with everything) and enjoy it.
>>>
>>>Don't you mean everything except meat, eggs, dairy? Hardly seems right to
>>>advocate moderation in a group dedicated to dietary extremism. ;-)
>>
>> I said what I meant - SOY, not meat, eggs, or dairy.
>
> You said AS WITH EVERYTHING. So why do you now exclude SOME things?

I said "as with everything" as it pertained to moderation, see above. You
have changed the context to suit your own (apparently carnivorous) agenda.
You have no credibility...

<PLONK>

"shroomer" > wrote in message
...
>
> "usual suspect" > wrote in message
> ...
>> shroomer wrote:
>>>>>>I am newbie at eating vegetarian, eating lots of products
>>>>>>with soy protein.
>>>>>>My friend says that means eating lots of estrogen. Being a
>>>>>>guy, should I be concerned? Is there anything to the notion
>>>>>>of estrogen hormones in all the
>>>>>>soy products (Soy milk, Tofu dogs, etc)
>>>>>
>>>>>There is estrogen in soy buy you'd have to eat a LOT of it
>>>>>to make any significant difference in your hormone balance.
>>>>
>>>>How much is "a LOT"?
>>>
>>> I read somewhere it takes on the order of 30 times a normal
>>> serving.
>>
>> Perhaps you can try to remember where you read it so others
>> can read it for themselves. Else I'll have to comment on the
>> studies about soy and dementia...
>
> This excerpted from the Washington Post, May 4, 2004. pg. F.01,
> authored by Sally Squires.
>
> "Soy is a very healthy food," said physician James Anderson,
> who has studied soy for 15 years at the University of Kentucky
> in Lexington and is convinced enough of its benefits to eat
> about a dozen servings per week. "It's very safe."
> Most concerns about soy have centered around the fact that it
> is a rich source of isoflavones, substances that mimic the
> effects of the female hormone estrogen. To determine what these
> plant-based chemicals might do, Steven Zeisel and his
> colleagues at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
> fed megadoses of soy to men as part of a recent National Cancer
> Institute study.
>
> Nipple discharge, breast enlargement and slight decreases in
> testosterone occurred with the megadoses. But "we still
> couldn't find anything that was serious, and we went up to
> doses that are probably 30 times what you could get from normal
> foods," Zeisel said.
>
>>>>>Soy is a good source of complete protein
>>>>
>>>>So are eggs, especially if you only eat the whites. Egg
>>>>whites lack the phytoestrogen found in soy and have no fat
>>>>(soy is very fatty) or cholesterol.
>>>
>>> We're not talking about eggs, the OP asked about soy. See
>>> above.
>>
>> You brought up complete protein, so it's fair to point out
>> that there are better sources of 'complete protein.' Those
>> sources would include lean meats, eggs, and reduced fat
>> dairy -- all of which offer nutritional benefits not found in
>> soy (B12, lack of phytates so iron is easily absorbed, etc.)
>> without the phytoestrogen.
>
> Great. You are welcome to eat all the meats, eggs and dairy
> that you wish and I will be happy with soy and other sources of
> plant protein.
>
>>>>>So eat it in moderation (as with everything) and enjoy it.
>>>>
>>>>Don't you mean everything except meat, eggs, dairy? Hardly
>>>>seems right to advocate moderation in a group dedicated to
>>>>dietary extremism. ;-)
>>>
>>> I said what I meant - SOY, not meat, eggs, or dairy.
>>
>> You said AS WITH EVERYTHING. So why do you now exclude SOME
>> things?
>
> I said "as with everything" as it pertained to moderation, see
> above. You have changed the context to suit your own
> (apparently carnivorous) agenda. You have no credibility...
> =======================
Part of the problem is that you may not be eating it in
moderation. By replacing real meats, cheeses, and dairy with
substitutes you are getting an artificially high amount of soy.
It's used to make everything. You can live with the "Nipple
discharge, breast enlargement and slight decreases in
testosterone" if you want. Me, I prefer the real thing, far
more healthy.


> <PLONK>
==============
Ah, yes, the run away when you have nothing to say...


>
>

"rick" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "shroomer" > wrote in message

>> I said "as with everything" as it pertained to moderation, see above. You
>> have changed the context to suit your own (apparently carnivorous)
>> agenda. You have no credibility...
>> =======================
> Part of the problem is that you may not be eating it in moderation. By
> replacing real meats, cheeses, and dairy with substitutes you are getting
> an artificially high amount of soy.

I am the one who encouraged moderation in the first place! You are assuming
that a one-to-one replacement of meat/dairy with soy results in "an
artificially high amount of soy" (read phytoestrogens that have feminizing
effects on men). I just provided evidence that scientists haven't found ANY
feminizing effects of soy in men even at 30 times the normal amount. You
have also ignored the possibility that veg*ns get protein from sources other
than soy: grains, legumes, etc. Veg*ns typically have a more varied diet
than carnivores.

I haven't seen many soy-eating veg*ns with man-boobs. To the contrary, I've
seen MANY obese carnivorous men with man-boobs.

> You can live with the "Nipple discharge, breast enlargement and slight
> decreases in testosterone" if you want. Me, I prefer the real thing, far
> more healthy.

Go for it. Have your meat with anti-biotics, growth hormones, steroids,
flavor enhancers, saturated fat, and cholesterol. And maybe you should get
fitted for a bra while you're at it.

>> <PLONK>
> ==============
> Ah, yes, the run away when you have nothing to say...

No, I just don't tolerate fools and assholes well...

<PLONK>

Dolly Parton, posting as "shroomer," wrote:
>>>>>>I am newbie at eating vegetarian, eating lots of products with soy
>>>>>>protein.
>>>>>>My friend says that means eating lots of estrogen. Being a guy, should
>>>>>>I be concerned? Is there anything to the notion of estrogen hormones in
>>>>>>all the
>>>>>>soy products (Soy milk, Tofu dogs, etc)
>>>>>
>>>>>There is estrogen in soy buy you'd have to eat a LOT of it to make any
>>>>>significant difference in your hormone balance.
>>>>
>>>>How much is "a LOT"?
>>>
>>>I read somewhere it takes on the order of 30 times a normal serving.
>>
>>Perhaps you can try to remember where you read it so others can read it
>>for themselves. Else I'll have to comment on the studies about soy and
>>dementia...
>
> This excerpted from the Washington Post, May 4, 2004. pg. F.01, authored by
> Sally Squires.
>
> "Soy is a very healthy food," said physician James Anderson, who has studied
> soy for 15 years at the University of Kentucky in Lexington and is convinced
> enough of its benefits to eat about a dozen servings per week. "It's very
> safe."
> Most concerns about soy have centered around the fact that it is a rich
> source of isoflavones, substances that mimic the effects of the female
> hormone estrogen. To determine what these plant-based chemicals might do,
> Steven Zeisel and his colleagues at the University of North Carolina at
> Chapel Hill fed megadoses of soy to men as part of a recent National Cancer
> Institute study.
>
> Nipple discharge, breast enlargement and slight decreases in testosterone
> occurred with the megadoses. But "we still couldn't find anything that was
> serious, and we went up to doses that are probably 30 times what you could
> get from normal foods," Zeisel said.

Got tits?

>>>>>Soy is a good source of complete protein
>>>>
>>>>So are eggs, especially if you only eat the whites. Egg whites lack the
>>>>phytoestrogen found in soy and have no fat (soy is very fatty) or
>>>>cholesterol.
>>>
>>>We're not talking about eggs, the OP asked about soy. See above.
>>
>>You brought up complete protein, so it's fair to point out that there are
>>better sources of 'complete protein.' Those sources would include lean
>>meats, eggs, and reduced fat dairy -- all of which offer nutritional
>>benefits not found in soy (B12, lack of phytates so iron is easily
>>absorbed, etc.) without the phytoestrogen.
>
> Great. You are welcome to eat all the meats, eggs and dairy that you wish
> and I will be happy with soy and other sources of plant protein.

Got nipple discharge?

>>>>>So eat it in moderation (as with everything) and enjoy it.
>>>>
>>>>Don't you mean everything except meat, eggs, dairy? Hardly seems right to
>>>>advocate moderation in a group dedicated to dietary extremism. ;-)
>>>
>>>I said what I meant - SOY, not meat, eggs, or dairy.
>>
>>You said AS WITH EVERYTHING. So why do you now exclude SOME things?
>
> I said "as with everything" as it pertained to moderation, see above.

You meant "everything *except* meat."

> You have changed the context

No, I haven't. I've pointed out that you don't mean what you write.

> to suit your own (apparently carnivorous) agenda.

1. I have no agenda, which is why I can point out that you didn't mean
"everything" but rather "everything except meat."
2. Aside from 4-5 servings of fish in the past eight or nine years (and
all within the last couple of months), I haven't eaten any meat.

> You have no credibility...

I have a lot more than a disingenous pansy who doesn't mean what he writes.

> <PLONK>

Was that your soy-enlarged teat dropping to the floor, Dolly?

shroomer wrote:
>>>I said "as with everything" as it pertained to moderation, see above. You
>>>have changed the context to suit your own (apparently carnivorous)
>>>agenda. You have no credibility...
>>>=======================
>>
>>Part of the problem is that you may not be eating it in moderation. By
>>replacing real meats, cheeses, and dairy with substitutes you are getting
>>an artificially high amount of soy.
>
> I am the one who encouraged moderation in the first place!

No, you encouraged extremism -- avoiding meat.

> You are assuming
> that a one-to-one replacement of meat/dairy with soy results in "an
> artificially high amount of soy" (read phytoestrogens that have feminizing
> effects on men). I just provided evidence that scientists haven't found ANY
> feminizing effects of soy in men even at 30 times the normal amount.

Smaller testicles, enlarged tits, and nipple discharge ARE the result of
soy's feminizing effects.

> You
> have also ignored the possibility that veg*ns get protein from sources other
> than soy: grains, legumes, etc. Veg*ns typically have a more varied diet
> than carnivores.

Ipse dixit.

> I haven't seen many soy-eating veg*ns with man-boobs.

Look in the mirror, Dolly.

> To the contrary, I've
> seen MANY obese carnivorous men with man-boobs.

Get Dreck to send you a topless pic. He's a "vegan" -- a morbidly obese
one, shattering your delusion that vegan equals healthy or thin -- and
he probably has man-tits.

>>You can live with the "Nipple discharge, breast enlargement and slight
>>decreases in testosterone" if you want. Me, I prefer the real thing, far
>>more healthy.
>
> Go for it. Have your meat with anti-biotics, growth hormones,

You operate under some delusions, which isn't surprising given the fact
that you're advocating veganism. Growth hormones are banned for use in
poultry and pork. Both are tested for antibiotic residues before
approval for consumption.

> steroids,

Redundant. Steroids aren't used in *all* meat production. They're banned
from use in pork and poultry.

> flavor enhancers,

Those flavor enhancers appear in prepared vegetarian foods as well,
especially in the ones containing soy. Soy has a most unpleasant aftertaste.

> saturated fat,

This, too, is an issue which can affect vegetarians, especially with
respect to ingredients found in baked goods, tropical oils, and transfats.

Not all animal fats are bad: oily cold water fish are very rich in
omega-3 fatty acids, and consumption of the same is recommended for
those with heart disease. The same is true of grass-fed beef, bison, and
wild game, which are all high in omega-3 FAs and low in saturated fat.

> and cholesterol.

You're ignorant, so you should be glad I'm here to help you. Dietary
cholesterol is, by itself, insignificant as far as serum levels are
concerned. Consumption of *saturated* fats -- from animal or vegetable
sources -- elevates LDL (bad cholesterol) and suppresses HDL (good
cholesterol). Oily cold-water fish high in omega-3 FAs are fairly high
in cholesterol but still increase HDL which helps control LDL.

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09319.html

There are also some very important non-dietary things which affect serum
cholesterol levels. Exercise, smoking, and stress all affect serum
cholesterol. Exercises is beneficial, smoking and stress are detrimental.

> And maybe you should get
> fitted for a bra while you're at it.

You're the one eating soy.

>>><PLONK>
>>
>>==============
>>Ah, yes, the run away when you have nothing to say...
>
> No,

Yes.

> I just don't tolerate fools and assholes well...

Then how on earth do you put up with yourself?

> <PLONK>

That's the sound of your other teat hitting the ground...

shroomer wrote:
...
> I haven't seen many soy-eating veg*ns with man-boobs. To the contrary,
> I've seen MANY obese carnivorous men with man-boobs.
...


Good point!

"Beowulf" > wrote in message
...
> shroomer wrote:
> ..
>> I haven't seen many soy-eating veg*ns with man-boobs. To the
>> contrary,
>> I've seen MANY obese carnivorous men with man-boobs.
> ..
>
>
> Good point!
==================
Why are you looking? Maybe queer-boy ronny could 'help' you
out...