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  #46 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 19-01-2005, 10:50 AM
formerly known as 'cat arranger'
 
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I believe that existence is a benefit.
It seems that species are incorrectly
divided up into individuals when they
they really are more of a continuum.
So the benefit of existence is to the
parents and the species. To the parents
in that their genes and their need to
continue is fulfilled and to the species
in that it is continued.

But it is a sort of false benefit in that the
species can be continued quite well without
farming and most meat eaters could not
care less about a species except for the
benefit of their bloody meat.




  #48 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 19-01-2005, 02:39 PM
pearl
 
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"Tim" wrote in message news ...
On a farm Cows are afforded protection from predators and easy access to a
well balanced diet. Compare to a wild herd in say Africa - Lions and all
sorts of predators to get you - competition for food - poor supply of water.
Sounds like a farm animal benefits to me.


Livestock Suffer, Too
http://www.apnm.org/waste_of_west/Chapter5.html


  #49 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 19-01-2005, 02:39 PM
pearl
 
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"Tim" wrote in message news ...
On a farm Cows are afforded protection from predators and easy access to a
well balanced diet. Compare to a wild herd in say Africa - Lions and all
sorts of predators to get you - competition for food - poor supply of water.
Sounds like a farm animal benefits to me.


Livestock Suffer, Too
http://www.apnm.org/waste_of_west/Chapter5.html


  #50 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 19-01-2005, 03:05 PM
Rudy Canoza
 
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formerly known as 'cat arranger' wrote:
I believe that existence is a benefit.


No, it isn't. A benefit is something that makes an
entity better off; that is, something that improves the
welfare of an entity.

Prior to existing, the entity DIDN'T HAVE a welfare
that could be improved. Thus, initial existence did
not improve the entity's welfare, and initial existence
therefore CANNOT be a benefit.


  #51 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 19-01-2005, 03:17 PM
Ron
 
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In article [email protected],
"formerly known as 'cat arranger'"
wrote:

I believe that existence is a benefit.
It seems that species are incorrectly
divided up into individuals when they
they really are more of a continuum.
So the benefit of existence is to the
parents and the species. To the parents
in that their genes and their need to
continue is fulfilled and to the species
in that it is continued.


Continuation of a species requires death. One generation must die off
for the next one to survive and thrive. The continuation of the species
is possible through the dying off of individual members and over time.
What does seem to be a contentious point is when and where the
individual members of the species will die so that the species can
flourish. There does seem to be a benefit to death.
  #52 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 19-01-2005, 03:19 PM
Ron
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article t,
Rudy Canoza wrote:

formerly known as 'cat arranger' wrote:
I believe that existence is a benefit.


No, it isn't. A benefit is something that makes an
entity better off; that is, something that improves the
welfare of an entity.


What is a "benefit" is also subjective.

Prior to existing, the entity DIDN'T HAVE a welfare
that could be improved. Thus, initial existence did
not improve the entity's welfare, and initial existence
therefore CANNOT be a benefit.

  #53 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 19-01-2005, 03:19 PM
Ron
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article t,
Rudy Canoza wrote:

formerly known as 'cat arranger' wrote:
I believe that existence is a benefit.


No, it isn't. A benefit is something that makes an
entity better off; that is, something that improves the
welfare of an entity.


What is a "benefit" is also subjective.

Prior to existing, the entity DIDN'T HAVE a welfare
that could be improved. Thus, initial existence did
not improve the entity's welfare, and initial existence
therefore CANNOT be a benefit.

  #54 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 19-01-2005, 03:26 PM
Rudy Canoza
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ron wrote:

In article [email protected],
"formerly known as 'cat arranger'"
wrote:


I believe that existence is a benefit.
It seems that species are incorrectly
divided up into individuals when they
they really are more of a continuum.
So the benefit of existence is to the
parents and the species. To the parents
in that their genes and their need to
continue is fulfilled and to the species
in that it is continued.



Continuation of a species requires death. One generation must die off
for the next one to survive and thrive. The continuation of the species
is possible through the dying off of individual members and over time.
What does seem to be a contentious point is when and where the
individual members of the species will die so that the species can
flourish. There does seem to be a benefit to death.


Not to the individual animal.
  #55 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 19-01-2005, 03:26 PM
Rudy Canoza
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ron wrote:

In article [email protected],
"formerly known as 'cat arranger'"
wrote:


I believe that existence is a benefit.
It seems that species are incorrectly
divided up into individuals when they
they really are more of a continuum.
So the benefit of existence is to the
parents and the species. To the parents
in that their genes and their need to
continue is fulfilled and to the species
in that it is continued.



Continuation of a species requires death. One generation must die off
for the next one to survive and thrive. The continuation of the species
is possible through the dying off of individual members and over time.
What does seem to be a contentious point is when and where the
individual members of the species will die so that the species can
flourish. There does seem to be a benefit to death.


Not to the individual animal.


  #56 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 19-01-2005, 03:27 PM
Rudy Canoza
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ron wrote:

In article t,
Rudy Canoza wrote:


formerly known as 'cat arranger' wrote:

I believe that existence is a benefit.


No, it isn't. A benefit is something that makes an
entity better off; that is, something that improves the
welfare of an entity.



What is a "benefit" is also subjective.


Irrelevant, thus non sequitur. It doesn't change the
FACT that an entity MUST ALREADY exist in order to
realize any benefit from anything.

You regularly spew irrelevancies. Why is that?



Prior to existing, the entity DIDN'T HAVE a welfare
that could be improved. Thus, initial existence did
not improve the entity's welfare, and initial existence
therefore CANNOT be a benefit.

  #57 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 19-01-2005, 03:27 PM
Rudy Canoza
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ron wrote:

In article t,
Rudy Canoza wrote:


formerly known as 'cat arranger' wrote:

I believe that existence is a benefit.


No, it isn't. A benefit is something that makes an
entity better off; that is, something that improves the
welfare of an entity.



What is a "benefit" is also subjective.


Irrelevant, thus non sequitur. It doesn't change the
FACT that an entity MUST ALREADY exist in order to
realize any benefit from anything.

You regularly spew irrelevancies. Why is that?



Prior to existing, the entity DIDN'T HAVE a welfare
that could be improved. Thus, initial existence did
not improve the entity's welfare, and initial existence
therefore CANNOT be a benefit.

  #58 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 19-01-2005, 03:46 PM
Ron
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
Rudy Canoza wrote:

Ron wrote:

In article [email protected],
"formerly known as 'cat arranger'"
wrote:


I believe that existence is a benefit.
It seems that species are incorrectly
divided up into individuals when they
they really are more of a continuum.
So the benefit of existence is to the
parents and the species. To the parents
in that their genes and their need to
continue is fulfilled and to the species
in that it is continued.



Continuation of a species requires death. One generation must die off
for the next one to survive and thrive. The continuation of the species
is possible through the dying off of individual members and over time.
What does seem to be a contentious point is when and where the
individual members of the species will die so that the species can
flourish. There does seem to be a benefit to death.


Not to the individual animal.


The parent dies leaving room and resources for the children, the grand
children and the great grand children. I would think it selfish for
anyone to deny their children and subsequent generations of their
genetic line their time at a successful existence by refusing to die off
when the time comes. Humans just don't have our expiry dates stamped on
our bottoms.
  #59 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 19-01-2005, 03:49 PM
Rudy Canoza
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ron wrote:

In article ,
Rudy Canoza wrote:


Ron wrote:


In article [email protected],
"formerly known as 'cat arranger'"
wrote:



I believe that existence is a benefit.
It seems that species are incorrectly
divided up into individuals when they
they really are more of a continuum.
So the benefit of existence is to the
parents and the species. To the parents
in that their genes and their need to
continue is fulfilled and to the species
in that it is continued.


Continuation of a species requires death. One generation must die off
for the next one to survive and thrive. The continuation of the species
is possible through the dying off of individual members and over time.
What does seem to be a contentious point is when and where the
individual members of the species will die so that the species can
flourish. There does seem to be a benefit to death.


Not to the individual animal.



The parent dies leaving room and resources for the children


The parent would probably gladly trade some room and
resources for some additional time.
  #60 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 19-01-2005, 03:49 PM
Rudy Canoza
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Ron wrote:

In article ,
Rudy Canoza wrote:


Ron wrote:


In article [email protected],
"formerly known as 'cat arranger'"
wrote:



I believe that existence is a benefit.
It seems that species are incorrectly
divided up into individuals when they
they really are more of a continuum.
So the benefit of existence is to the
parents and the species. To the parents
in that their genes and their need to
continue is fulfilled and to the species
in that it is continued.


Continuation of a species requires death. One generation must die off
for the next one to survive and thrive. The continuation of the species
is possible through the dying off of individual members and over time.
What does seem to be a contentious point is when and where the
individual members of the species will die so that the species can
flourish. There does seem to be a benefit to death.


Not to the individual animal.



The parent dies leaving room and resources for the children


The parent would probably gladly trade some room and
resources for some additional time.


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