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  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-01-2005, 05:57 AM
misanthrope
 
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wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:00:18 GMT, "misanthrope"

wrote:
Yes, if it ever was, it's too bad that it isn't any more. I've posted
to it more than once and don't recall anything useful or interesting
coming from it, so I can't be blamed for its downfall.


then just maybe it's the wrong group for you.

it not only deters new members but also drives
away old ones, and can in the long run kill the group.


Well, if instead of discussing the topic you simply complain about
it being brought up, that *could* have a negative influence as well,
imo.


that would be valid point in the case of valid topics, but it's not valid
for posts that contain nothing more than back-biting garbage.



  #32 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-01-2005, 06:29 AM
Rudy Canoza
 
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wrote:

lies about my beliefs


No one has EVER lied about your beliefs.

****wit, who sometimes uses the alias "David Harrison",
has long insisted that I have "lied" about his beliefs.
I have never lied about his beliefs. He has written
thousands of usenet posts based on his beliefs, and I
have correctly interpreted his writing. His belief
about animals, specifically his belief that animals
"getting to experience life" is a morally good thing
in and of itself, is something that appears frequently
and with (believe it or not) a peculiar kind of clarity.

Read these quotes that I have culled from ****wit's
usenet rantings over a four and a half year period,
and judge for yourselves.

All emphasis in the quotes, by use of asterisks, is
****wit's own.


****wit believes that unborn "future farm animals" are
morally considerable "somethings":

The animals that will be raised for us to eat
are more than just "nothing", because they
*will* be born unless something stops their
lives from happening. Since that is the case,
if something stops their lives from happening,
whatever it is that stops it is truly "denying"
them of the life they otherwise would have had.
****wit - 12/09/1999


He believes they can experience things - loss,
deprivation, unfairness:

Yes, it is the unborn animals that will be
born if nothing prevents that from happening,
that would experience the loss if their lives
are prevented.
****wit - 08/01/2000

What gives you the right to want to deprive
them [unborn animals] of having what life they
could have?
****wit - 10/12/2001

What I'm saying is unfair for the animals that
*could* get to live, is for people not to
consider the fact that they are only keeping
these animals from being killed, by keeping
them from getting to live at all.
****wit - 10/19/1999


He believes that the "future farm animals" getting to
live at all is what's important, irrespective of the
quality of their lives:

*Whatever* life they get they are lucky to get
it...even if it's only six weeks like a fryer.
****wit - 09/04/1999

All of that has nothing to do with how many
actually get to live. But that is why I feel
that every thing that gets to be born is lucky
in the respect that it *did* get to be born,
since the odds are infinite against all of us
that *we* will actually get to experience life.
****wit - 12/11/1999

Then I guess raising billions of animals for
food provides billions of beings with a place in
eternity. I'm happy to contribute to at least
some of it.
****wit - 04/12/2002

But it's still every bit as morally acceptable
for humans to kill animals for food, as it is
for any other animals to do so imo. And in fact
more so, since we provide life for most of the
animals we kill.
****wit - 04/20/2002

Life is the benefit that makes all others possible.
****wit - 06/25/2003 (and numerous other posts)

I can be glad for a chicken in a chickenhouse
who got to experience life and what it's
about for 6 weeks.
****wit - 12/22/2004



****wit tries to deny that he attaches any importance
to the mere fact of "getting to experience life" per
se, but as usual, his words betray him. Here, we see
that ****wit believes that "providing them with life"
earns humans some kind of moral bonus points:

As for whether or not providing them with life
is an acceptable trade off for taking it later,
no one has ever had a problem with it.
****wit - 10/12/2003


He believes that "aras" are doing something terrible to
the unborn "future farm animals" merely by *wanting* to
prevent them from being born:

People who encourage vegetarianism are the
worst enemy that the animals we raise for food
have IMO.
****wit - 09/13/1999

You also know that "ARAs" want to deprive
future farm animals [of] living,
****wit - 01/08/2002

That approach is illogical, since if it
is wrong to end the lives of animals, it is
*far worse* to keep those same animals from
getting to have any life at all.
****wit - 07/30/1999

What I'm saying is unfair for the animals that
*could* get to live, is for people not to
consider the fact that they are only keeping
these animals from being killed, by keeping
them from getting to live at all.
****wit - 10/19/1999
[like Humpty Dumpty, I pay this quote extra!]


****wit claims, falsely, that what the animals feel
about their lives is what matters:

But!! Since *we* are not the ones that we are
discussing, what *we* know has nothing to do
with it. Instead, the way the animals feel
about their lives is what matters, and in order
to get some idea of what that is, we have to
ignore the things that we know, and that they
do not (like the fact that they will be
killed). If a person is not willing to try to
do that, then they really don't care about the
animals, but are worried more about their self.
****wit - 08/20/1999


But of course, he's lying. It's what *****wit* feels
about them, about his connection to them, about his
ability to "appreciate" them for a while, that matters
to him:

Over in cat ng world I've been flamed pretty
well for letting [****wit's cat] have any
[kittens]. At least one of them feels that for
every kitten I let a person have from "my" cat,
a kitten in a shelter will die. Of course the
ratio is not likely to be anywhere near one to
one, but some folks tend to be a bit fanatical
about things. Even if it were that way, there
is really no reason for me to encourage life
for some kittens in a shelter, at the expense
of kittens that could get to experience life
from a cat that I actually care about, and
kittens that I get to appreciate and like at
least for a little while.
****wit - 09/23/1999

At least my "insanity" allows appreciation for
what life has to offer [to animals].
****wit - 05/06/2004

I can be glad for a chicken in a chickenhouse
who got to experience life and what it's
about for 6 weeks.
****wit - 12/22/2004
[another one that does double-duty]


****wit sleazily and dishonestly tries to keep
insisting that the people arguing with him need to show
how the "'ar' proposal" to eliminate farm animal is
ethically superior to providing "decent" lives for
them. But as we see, ****wit isn't at all concerned
with providing "decent lives" for them. He's
interested in seeing them "get to experience life",
period, irrespective of the quality of that life. And
he feels anyone who wants to try to stop that is evil.

No one needs to show any ethical superiority of one
"proposal" over another, at all, as long as ****wit is
lying about *his* proposal and as long as he continues
to insist on presenting the bogus, logically invalid
choice that he does.

The record, in ****wit's own words, speaks for itself.
No one has "lied" about ****wit's beliefs. ****wit
believes everything I have said he believes, as
supported by ****wit's own ranting.

























  #35 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-01-2005, 08:54 AM
John Jones
 
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**** off from altphilosophy



  #36 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-01-2005, 04:36 PM
[email protected]
 
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On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:43:10 -0800, "Dutch" wrote:


wrote on alt.phil, and he's just
****ed that what used to be a useful group is now being turned into a
circus
by clowns with no interest in anything but infecting groups with their
faecal discharges.


Meaning that philosophy people have no interest in whether or
not life is a benefit to anything. Most of the "Animal Rights" people
feel the same way about it apparently.


Life is not "a benefit" you incoherent idiot.


Life is the benefit which allows zygotes to grow into animals.
Life is the benefit which makes all others possible.
  #37 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-01-2005, 04:37 PM
John Jones
 
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**** off from here then

  #38 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-01-2005, 05:55 PM
Dutch
 
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wrote in message
...
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:43:10 -0800, "Dutch" wrote:


wrote on alt.phil, and he's just
****ed that what used to be a useful group is now being turned into a
circus
by clowns with no interest in anything but infecting groups with their
faecal discharges.

Meaning that philosophy people have no interest in whether or
not life is a benefit to anything. Most of the "Animal Rights" people
feel the same way about it apparently.


Life is not "a benefit" you incoherent idiot.


Life is the benefit which allows zygotes to grow into animals.
Life is the benefit which makes all others possible.


Life is good
Benefits are good
therefore Life is a Benefit

Is that it?


  #39 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-01-2005, 06:17 PM
John Jones
 
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You are a ****. Stay off altphilosophy tosspot

  #40 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-01-2005, 06:50 PM
Dutch
 
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"John Jones" wrote in message
ps.com...
**** off from here then


Eat shit, netcop




  #41 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-01-2005, 08:53 PM
misanthrope
 
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animal rights is an issue in which i have no interest, and i therefore feel
i'm unqualified to pronounce upon it.


wrote in message
...
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 05:57:51 GMT, "misanthrope"

wrote:

wrote in message
.. .


Well, if instead of discussing the topic you simply complain about
it being brought up, that *could* have a negative influence as well,
imo.


that would be valid point in the case of valid topics, but it's not valid
for posts that contain nothing more than back-biting garbage.


Some farm animals benefit from farming and some do not.
The so called "Animal Rights" people believe that no farm
animals benefit from farming, which is absurd. Maybe you
don't think human influence on animals has anything to
do with philosophy, but I feel sure some philosophers have
discussed it.
The "ARAs" in their desperation have decided to
promote the idea that life has never been a benefit to
anything. But life is the benefit which allows zygotes to
grow into animals, so every animal has benefitted from
life in at least that way. Life is the benefit which makes
all others possible.
Life itself and the individual lives of animals are completely
different things, and just because life itself is a benefit it
doesn't mean that all of the things experienced in the life
of a being are a benefit to the being.
When I post things to the philosophy group I'm hoping
that you guys would have covered all that sort of thing
and could add something interesting that we have not
already been over. Even though you apparently don't
want to discuss it, I still believe such topics are not
inappropriate for philosophers to discuss.


http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...osophy&x=0&y=0

Main Entry: phi·los·o·phy
Pronunciation: f&-'lä-s(&-)fE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -phies
Etymology: Middle English philosophie, from Old French, from
Latin philosophia, from Greek, from philosophos philosopher
[...]
2 a : pursuit of wisdom b : a search for a general understanding
of values and reality by chiefly speculative rather than observational
means c : an analysis of the grounds of and concepts expressing
fundamental beliefs
3 a : a system of philosophical concepts b : a theory underlying or
regarding a sphere of activity or thought the philosophy of war
philosophy of science
4 a : the most general beliefs, concepts, and attitudes of an individual
or group



  #42 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 18-01-2005, 09:05 PM
John Jones
 
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**** off from alt.philosophy

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