Vegan (alt.food.vegan) This newsgroup exists to share ideas and issues of concern among vegans. We are always happy to share our recipes- perhaps especially with omnivores who are simply curious- or even better, accomodating a vegan guest for a meal!

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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jay Santos
 
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Default "veganism" is religion

More at Wikipedia:

Veganism as a secular movement is a modern idea, as
a reaction to the exploitation of nature, including
imposing unnecessary suffering on non-human animals.
Although it can be seen as a minor and localised
reaction to the excesses of the developed world, the
principles behind it can be found in much older
ethical/religious doctrine of the East, such as
Hinduism, Buddhism or Jainism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan
  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
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Veganism is NOT religion, or even *a* religion.
Secularism, by definition is NOT concerned with religion.

  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
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wrote:
> Veganism is NOT religion, or even *a* religion.


Yes, it is.

> Secularism, by definition is NOT concerned with religion.


Veganism isn't secularism. It's a codified belief system:
In late 1944, The Vegan Society was established, advocating a
totally plant-based diet excluding flesh, fish, fowl, eggs,
honey, and animals' milk, butter, and cheese, and also
encouraging the manufacture and use of alternatives to animal
commodities, including clothing and shoes. The group argued that
the elimination of exploitation of any kind was necessary in
order to bring about a more reasonable and humane society. FROM
ITS INCEPTION, VEGANISM WAS DEFINED AS A "PHILOSOPHY" AND "WAY
OF LIVING." IT WAS NEVER INTENDED TO BE MERELY A DIET AND, STILL
TODAY, DESCRIBES A LIFESTYLE AND BELIEF SYSTEM THAT REVOLVES
AROUND A REVERENCE FOR LIFE.
http://www.vegsource.com/jo/veganliving.htm

Mr Santos earlier today shared the following with you vegan nitwits:
Veganism as a secular movement is a MODERN IDEA, as
a reaction to the exploitation of nature, including
imposing unnecessary suffering on non-human animals.
Although it can be seen as a minor and localised
reaction to the excesses of the developed world, the
principles behind it can be found in much older
ethical/religious doctrine of the East, such as
Hinduism, Buddhism or Jainism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan

It is entirely religious, and its adherents are brainless true believers.
  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
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wrote:
> Veganism is NOT religion, or even *a* religion.


Yes, it is.

> Secularism, by definition is NOT concerned with religion.


Veganism isn't secularism. It's a codified belief system:
In late 1944, The Vegan Society was established, advocating a
totally plant-based diet excluding flesh, fish, fowl, eggs,
honey, and animals' milk, butter, and cheese, and also
encouraging the manufacture and use of alternatives to animal
commodities, including clothing and shoes. The group argued that
the elimination of exploitation of any kind was necessary in
order to bring about a more reasonable and humane society. FROM
ITS INCEPTION, VEGANISM WAS DEFINED AS A "PHILOSOPHY" AND "WAY
OF LIVING." IT WAS NEVER INTENDED TO BE MERELY A DIET AND, STILL
TODAY, DESCRIBES A LIFESTYLE AND BELIEF SYSTEM THAT REVOLVES
AROUND A REVERENCE FOR LIFE.
http://www.vegsource.com/jo/veganliving.htm

Mr Santos earlier today shared the following with you vegan nitwits:
Veganism as a secular movement is a MODERN IDEA, as
a reaction to the exploitation of nature, including
imposing unnecessary suffering on non-human animals.
Although it can be seen as a minor and localised
reaction to the excesses of the developed world, the
principles behind it can be found in much older
ethical/religious doctrine of the East, such as
Hinduism, Buddhism or Jainism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan

It is entirely religious, and its adherents are brainless true believers.


  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
guillaume
 
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Veganism is NOT religion, or even *a* religion. - There is no unseen
controlling power or faith in the unproved, as is typical with a
religion. A stated conviction to a particular behaviour is not
religion. How many people worship MacDonald's?

I suggest you read the whole Wikipedia article, if you haven't, and
then comment on the whole.

Jay Santos replays part of the article that states that veganism is a
"secular movement" then you say it's not, and then you replay the same
"Veganism as a secular movement". Are you confused?

I'm not a vegan nitwit, vegan or a nitwit. - Just trying to gain
clarity in peoples thoughts. I see irresponsible extracts, apparent
confusion and now insults.

  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
guillaume
 
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Veganism is NOT religion, or even *a* religion. - There is no unseen
controlling power or faith in the unproved, as is typical with a
religion. A stated conviction to a particular behaviour is not
religion. How many people worship MacDonald's?

I suggest you read the whole Wikipedia article, if you haven't, and
then comment on the whole.

Jay Santos replays part of the article that states that veganism is a
"secular movement" then you say it's not, and then you replay the same
"Veganism as a secular movement". Are you confused?

I'm not a vegan nitwit, vegan or a nitwit. - Just trying to gain
clarity in peoples thoughts. I see irresponsible extracts, apparent
confusion and now insults.

  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jay Santos
 
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guillaume wrote:

> Veganism is NOT religion, or even *a* religion.


You're just repeating your previous unsubstantiated and
false claim.
  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
guillaume
 
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So, it's not a religion, but you like to call it one. - That's OK with
me.

If veganism is not secular why did you select a passage that stated in
the first line "Veganism as a secular movement .."?

  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
guillaume
 
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No. I'm stating facts. - You made the claim that veganism was a
religion, you substantiate it.

You've only quoted a passage that starts "Veganism as a secular
movement.." under a subject line of "veganism" is religion". That, to
me says, you don't know what you're talking about, or are at best, just
careless, and what makes it worse, won't admit it.

In future, have the decency to address the whole post; otherwise, I and
others might think you're incapable of addressing all the points raised.



  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
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guillaume wrote:
> Veganism is NOT religion, or even *a* religion. -


Yes, it is.

> There is no unseen
> controlling power or faith in the unproved,


There *is* a faith in the unproved assertion that one is benefitting
animals merely by not eating them.

> as is typical with a religion.


Not all religions believe in "unseen controlling powers." Buddhism
doesn't, yet it's definitely a religion.

> A stated conviction to a particular behaviour is not
> religion.


It is when adherents make absolute moral claims on an axiomatic basis.

> How many people worship MacDonald's?
>
> I suggest you read the whole Wikipedia article, if you haven't, and
> then comment on the whole.
>
> Jay Santos replays part of the article that states that veganism is a
> "secular movement"


Actually, the statement from that article said "Veganism as a secular
movement is a modern idea." That is to say that it wasn't ALWAYS
secular. When it was started in 1944, it was a peculiar conglomeration
of extremist animal welfare positions interspersed with ideas from
certain Eastern religions. Nothing about it has really changed, and it's
still exceedingly doctrinaire.

Among belief systems (religions), it is among the most dogmatic in the
world.

> then you say it's not, and then you replay the same
> "Veganism as a secular movement". Are you confused?


No, *you* are. You're leaving out the rest of the operative phrase:
"Veganism as a secular movement IS A MODERN IDEA."

> I'm not a vegan nitwit, vegan or a nitwit.


I beg to differ.

> - Just trying to gain
> clarity in peoples thoughts. I see irresponsible extracts, apparent
> confusion and now insults.


The most irresponsible "extract" thus far is your editing of what was
posted.
  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
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guillaume wrote:
> So, it's not a religion,


Yes, it is. It is a belief system. It's as axiomatic as any other
religion, and it's rigidly dogmatic.

> but you like to call it one. - That's OK with
> me.
>
> If veganism is not secular why did you select a passage that stated in
> the first line "Veganism as a secular movement .."?


Don't turn to an ellipse when the rest of the sentence is operative: *IS
A MODERN IDEA*. It was not originally secular, and even though it's
undergone a secularization, it remains at its core fundamentally religious.
  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
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guillaume wrote:
> No. I'm stating facts. - You made the claim that veganism was a
> religion, you substantiate it.
>
> You've only quoted a passage that starts "Veganism as a secular
> movement.." under a subject line of "veganism" is religion".


AS is not IS. You twit.

> That, to
> me says, you don't know what you're talking about, or are at best, just
> careless, and what makes it worse, won't admit it.


Finish the sentence: Veganism as a secular movement IS A MODERN IDEA.

> In future, have the decency to address the whole post; otherwise, I and
> others might think you're incapable of addressing all the points raised.


Why don't you have the decency to leave in some text so we can tell whom
and what you're replying?
  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jay Santos
 
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Espece de con "guillaume" wrote:

> No. I'm stating facts. - You made the claim that veganism was a
> religion, you substantiate it.


No, you're merely repeating your false and unsubstantiated claim.

The substantiation for the observation that "veganism" is a religion
has been made in the "vegan"-related newsgroups often and persuasively.
Look for it yourself, billy - I'm not here pour faire tes devoirs.

  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Scented Nectar
 
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> > If veganism is not secular why did you select a passage that stated
in
> > the first line "Veganism as a secular movement .."?

>
> Don't turn to an ellipse when the rest of the sentence is operative:

*IS
> A MODERN IDEA*. It was not originally secular, and even though it's
> undergone a secularization, it remains at its core fundamentally

religious.

If it's a modern idea, why don't you just go with
the flow and live in current times? Regardless
of how the word started, and what you think it
implies, there is this very real second definition.

Just accept that to those of us who don't think
it's a religion, it isn't one.

--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/
A huge directory listing over 700 veg recipe sites.
Has a fun 'Jump to a Random Link' button.




  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
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Scented Nectar wrote:
>>>If veganism is not secular why did you select a passage that stated
>>>in the first line "Veganism as a secular movement .."?

>>
>>Don't turn to an ellipse when the rest of the sentence is operative:
>>*IS A MODERN IDEA*. It was not originally secular, and even though it's
>>undergone a secularization, it remains at its core fundamentally
>>religious.

>
> If it's a modern idea, why don't you just go with
> the flow and live in current times? Regardless
> of how the word started, and what you think it
> implies, there is this very real second definition.


No, there isn't, and it's still very much a religion.

> Just accept that to those of us who don't think
> it's a religion, it isn't one.


Veganism is a religion and you're a true believer, part of the vegan
amen corner, a bonafide vegan zealot.
  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
Scented Nectar
 
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> > Just accept that to those of us who don't think
> > it's a religion, it isn't one.

>
> Veganism is a religion and you're a true believer, part of the vegan
> amen corner, a bonafide vegan zealot.


I think you're paranoid. Has veganism applied for
official church status in any country? No. Is veganism
an organization? No. Does veganism own any
property or churches? No. Are there any (accepted
by all) leaders or priests? No. Do vegans these
days believe they are in a religion? No.


--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/
A huge directory listing over 700 veg recipe sites.
Has a fun 'Jump to a Random Link' button.


  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
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Scented Nectar wrote:
>>>Just accept that to those of us who don't think
>>>it's a religion, it isn't one.

>>
>>Veganism is a religion and you're a true believer, part of the vegan
>>amen corner, a bonafide vegan zealot.

>
> I think you're paranoid.


I'm not paranoid. You just can't handle the truth.

> Has veganism applied for
> official church status in any country? No.


Irrelevant. Many religions never apply for "official church status" --
which isn't required here, except when trying to get tax exemptions (and
it needn't be classified as a church to get one). Some find it at odds
with their beliefs to seek approval of the state.

> Is veganism
> an organization? No.


It has organizations. Don't forget that it was founded as a *VEGAN
SOCIETY*, nitwit. And before you say a "society" can't be a religion,
remember what the Quakers call themselves: SOCIETY of Friends. Twit.

> Does veganism own any
> property or churches? No.


Many churches don't own property or church buildings.
http://www.home-church.org/

> Are there any (accepted
> by all) leaders or priests? No.


Wrong. Tom Regan and Peter Singer are the main popes. There are more
minor "bishops," and legion evangelists.

> Do vegans these
> days believe they are in a religion? No.


Ipse dixit. Joann Stepaniak and others claim that veganism is a *belief
system*, which is a hallmark of any religion.
  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
lostcherree
 
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"Jay Santos" > wrote in
ups.com:

> Espece de con "guillaume" wrote:
>
>> No. I'm stating facts. - You made the claim that veganism was a
>> religion, you substantiate it.

>
> No, you're merely repeating your false and unsubstantiated claim.
>
> The substantiation for the observation that "veganism" is a religion
> has been made in the "vegan"-related newsgroups often and persuasively.
> Look for it yourself, billy - I'm not here pour faire tes devoirs.
>
>


will you please stop feeding the trolls
  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
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Larry wrote:
>>It is entirely religious, and its adherents are brainless true believers.

>
> Insults really increase your credibility and self-respect??


No insults, just candor.
  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jay Santos
 
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guillaume wrote:
> So, it's not a religion


Yes, it is a religion.
  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jay Santos
 
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Scented Nectar wrote:

>>>If veganism is not secular why did you select a passage that stated

>
> in
>
>>>the first line "Veganism as a secular movement .."?

>>
>>Don't turn to an ellipse when the rest of the sentence is operative:

>
> *IS
>
>>A MODERN IDEA*. It was not originally secular, and even though it's
>>undergone a secularization, it remains at its core fundamentally

>
> religious.
>
> If it's a modern idea, why don't you just go with
> the flow and live in current times?


Modern does not equal good.
  #25 (permalink)   Report Post  
pearl
 
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"Mr. Gorilla" > wrote in message ...
> > wrote:
> > > Veganism is NOT religion, or even *a* religion.

>
> "usual suspect" > wrote:
> > Yes, it is.

> ===============
> I have seen the light, brother! You guys are right about this. According to
> the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary definition of religion;
>
> # "4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and
> faith"
>
> And furthermore, the definition of faith:
> # "3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction"
>
> It's obvious that veganism falls under that definition (ie: a cause held
> onto with adore and believed with strong conviction). So do a lot of other
> things that I wouldn't normally consider to be "religions".


'Religion' is generally understood to mean something else, as you know.

For the (secular) _ethical_ vegan, what is "held to" is humanity itself..

'hu·man·i·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hy-mn-t)
n. pl. hu·man·i·ties
1. Humans considered as a group; the human race.
2. The condition or quality of being human.
3. The quality of being humane; benevolence.*
4. A humane characteristic, attribute, or act.*
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=humanity

'hu·mane ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hy-mn)
adj.
1. Characterized by kindness, mercy, or compassion: ... **
2. Marked by an emphasis on humanistic values and concerns: ..
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=humane

They are compassionate because-- that's how we are.

-Lack of empathy- is a trait of severe personality disorder..

'Psychopathy is a concept subject to much debate, but is usually
defined as a constellation of affective, interpersonal, and behavioral
characteristics including egocentricity; impulsivity; irresponsibility;
shallow emotions; lack of empathy, guilt, or remorse; pathological
lying; manipulativeness; and the persistent violation of social norms
and expectations (Cleckley 1976; Hare 1993). The crimes of
psychopaths are usually stone-cold, remorseless killings for no
apparent reason. They cold-bloodedly take what they want and do
as they please without the slightest sense of guilt or regret. In many
ways, they are natural-born intraspecies predators who satisfy their
lust for power and control by charm, manipulation, intimidation, and
violence.
....'
http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/428/428lect16.htm

> But anyway, what I wanna know is, can I attain spiritual salvation if I go
> vegan, brother? Can I bow down before the Lettuce Lord, and nibble my way to
> Nirvana? Can spiritual awakening/enlightenment be achieved through (this)
> diet alone? If so, then I would consider veganism to be a religion. But if
> there's no "spiritual salvation" in it (and I certainly don't think there
> is), then to me veganism is not a religion. But that's just my opinion FWIW,


It can be a fundamental aspect of religion, for sure, even a requirement;

'9. And some of the people said, This man careth for all creatures,
are they his brothers and sisters that he should love them ? And he
said unto them, Verily these are your fellow creatures of the great
Household of God, yea, they are your brethren and sisters, having
the same breath of life in the Eternal.
10. And whosoever careth for one of the least of these, and giveth
it to eat and drink in its need, the same doeth it unto me, and whoso
willingly suffereth one of these to be in want, and defendeth it not
when evilly entreated, suffereth the evil as done unto me; for as ye
have done in this life, so shall it be done unto you in the life to come.'
http://www.essene.com/NazareneGospel...12_4.html#gn34

"For of the fruits of the trees and the seeds of the herbs alone do I
partake, and these are changed by the Spirit into my flesh and my
blood. Of these alone and their like shall ye eat who believe in me,
and are my disciples, for of these, in the Spirit come life and health
and healing unto man. "
http://www.essene.com/NazareneGospel/Holy_12_4.html





  #26 (permalink)   Report Post  
Scented Nectar
 
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"Jay Santos" > wrote in message
k.net...
> Scented Nectar wrote:
>
> >>>If veganism is not secular why did you select a passage that stated

> >
> > in
> >
> >>>the first line "Veganism as a secular movement .."?
> >>
> >>Don't turn to an ellipse when the rest of the sentence is operative:

> >
> > *IS
> >
> >>A MODERN IDEA*. It was not originally secular, and even though it's
> >>undergone a secularization, it remains at its core fundamentally

> >
> > religious.
> >
> > If it's a modern idea, why don't you just go with
> > the flow and live in current times?

>
> Modern does not equal good.


You mean it's not good when it doesn't agree
with your opinions. Face it, to some if not
most vegans, it isn't a religion. You want it
to be one so that you can pick on it for being
one. That's why you refuse to believe that
it's not necessarily anything to do with
religion at all.

Modern indicates that there is a current definition
that is secular.

--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/
A huge directory listing over 700 veg recipe sites.
Has a fun 'Jump to a Random Link' button.


  #27 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jay Santos
 
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Scented Nectar wrote:
> "Jay Santos" > wrote in message
> k.net...
>
>>Scented Nectar wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>>If veganism is not secular why did you select a passage that stated
>>>
>>>in
>>>
>>>
>>>>>the first line "Veganism as a secular movement .."?
>>>>
>>>>Don't turn to an ellipse when the rest of the sentence is operative:
>>>
>>>*IS
>>>
>>>
>>>>A MODERN IDEA*. It was not originally secular, and even though it's
>>>>undergone a secularization, it remains at its core fundamentally
>>>
>>>religious.
>>>
>>>If it's a modern idea, why don't you just go with
>>>the flow and live in current times?

>>
>>Modern does not equal good.

>
>
> You mean it's not good when it doesn't agree
> with your opinions.


No, asshole. I mean, modern does not equal good.
Islamic radicalism/terrorism is "modern", for example.
Progress is not inevitable merely with the passage of
time.

> Face it, to some if not
> most vegans, it isn't a religion.


Yes, it IS a religion, whether you call it one or not.
It has ALL the relevant traits of religion, but
chiefly blind and unquestioning belief in a rule that
is supposedly "spiritually" based.

> You want it to be one so


No, it just IS one.

> that you can pick on it for being
> one. That's why you refuse to believe that
> it's not necessarily anything to do with
> religion at all.


It IS a religion.
  #28 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mr. Gorilla
 
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"Mr. Gorilla" > wrote in message:
> > It's obvious that veganism falls under that definition (ie: a cause held
> > onto with adore and believed with strong conviction). So do a lot of

other
> > things that I wouldn't normally consider to be "religions".


"pearl" > wrote in message:
> 'Religion' is generally understood to mean something else, as you know.

===========

Yes.... Actually, I was kind of hoping that one of those who claim that
veganism is a religion would respond and tell me that. And then perhaps
exactly how veganism claims to bring about "spiritual salvation", as other
religions do, if the meaning that you're implying is what they also have in
mind. But, none of them took the bait. Oh well...

"pearl" > wrote (r.e. vegans):
> They are compassionate because-- that's how we are.


And, FWIW, I have a lot of respect for you as a vegan because of that - I
don't know how you do it. I was a (whole foods) vegan for 1 1/2 years about
20 years ago (after several years as a lacto-vegetarian). I felt really
malnourished by the end, like I was developing serious dietary deficiencies.
I couldn't stand it anymore so I went back to including milk in my diet and
that fixed the problem. I've tried veganism several more times over the
years since then, and the same thing always happens. After a few months I
begin to feel like I'm developing nutritional deficiencies, so I go back to
the lacto-vegetarian diet, and I'm OK. I guess I must have "Mahatma Gandhi
Syndrome" or something, since he ran into the same problem. Except he went
much longer and nearly died, and could only return to health by taking
(goat's) milk. Some people seem to do OK on the vegan diet somehow, though,
and I certainly respect them for that. I wish I could.

"pearl" > wrote:
> It can be a fundamental aspect of religion, for sure, even a requirement;


Oh yes, definitely. In fact it was my interest in Buddhism that originally
got me interested in becoming a vegetarian long ago. (Although vegetarianism
isn't a requirement with Buddhism, it does play a role, as you probably
know). But I have to say to those who think veganism is a religion in
itself, if I had to rate it as a religion I'd say it makes a very poor one.
During my 1 1/2 years as a vegan it provided no sense of, or even hope for
spiritual fulfillment of any kind. A definite thumbs down from me for
veganism as a religion.

-MG




  #29 (permalink)   Report Post  
pearl
 
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"Mr. Gorilla" > wrote in message . ..
> "Mr. Gorilla" > wrote in message:
> > > It's obvious that veganism falls under that definition (ie: a cause held
> > > onto with adore and believed with strong conviction). So do a lot of

> other
> > > things that I wouldn't normally consider to be "religions".

>
> "pearl" > wrote in message:
> > 'Religion' is generally understood to mean something else, as you know.

> ===========
>
> Yes.... Actually, I was kind of hoping that one of those who claim that
> veganism is a religion would respond and tell me that.
>
> And then perhaps
> exactly how veganism claims to bring about "spiritual salvation", as other
> religions do, if the meaning that you're implying is what they also have in
> mind. But, none of them took the bait. Oh well...


And prick their own bubble? (Let them play.. such pretty colours..

> "pearl" > wrote (r.e. vegans):
> > They are compassionate because-- that's how we are.

>
> And, FWIW, I have a lot of respect for you as a vegan because of that - I


I keep a happy nanny goat and chickens, as it goes. I rarely eat eggs though.

> don't know how you do it. I was a (whole foods) vegan for 1 1/2 years about
> 20 years ago (after several years as a lacto-vegetarian). I felt really
> malnourished by the end, like I was developing serious dietary deficiencies.


I'd have to ask for details of your diet and health status to try to ascertain
why that might be.. For example, were you eating organic foods, seeds..

> I couldn't stand it anymore so I went back to including milk in my diet and
> that fixed the problem. I've tried veganism several more times over the
> years since then, and the same thing always happens. After a few months I
> begin to feel like I'm developing nutritional deficiencies, so I go back to
> the lacto-vegetarian diet, and I'm OK. I guess I must have "Mahatma Gandhi
> Syndrome" or something, since he ran into the same problem. Except he went
> much longer and nearly died, and could only return to health by taking
> (goat's) milk. Some people seem to do OK on the vegan diet somehow, though,
> and I certainly respect them for that. I wish I could.


Getting information in afv and from other good resources is the way to go.
In the meantime, advise of course getting organic milk and free-range eggs.

<..>


  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dutch
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Laurie" > wrote ...
> E.g., many people choose a plant-based diet for the well documented,

by
> the scientific establishment, beneficial health effects.


Quit lying, the issue in contention has never been "plant-based diets", it
is "nothing-but-plants diets".


  #32 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick etter
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Laurie" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mr. Gorilla" > wrote in message
> ...
>>> wrote:

>
>> I have seen the light, brother! You guys are right about this. According
>> to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary definition of religion;
>>
>> # "4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and
>> faith"
>>
>> And furthermore, the definition of faith:
>> # "3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction"
>>
>> It's obvious that veganism falls under that definition (ie: a cause held
>> onto with adore and believed with strong conviction). So do a lot of
>> other
>> things that I wouldn't normally consider to be "religions".

> So, all scientifically-established "principle(s) or system of beliefs"
> are therefore "religion"??
> E.g. ALL mathematicians, math teachers, and students who believe that
> the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is 3.14159...
> are mere religious zealots?

=================
No, fool. The problem you have is that your psuedo-science doesn't qualify
as real science. So, you're just another rube that's bought into the
religion of faith...


> And how about all those facts and laws firmly established by science?
> Are those who believe that the Earth is in orbit around our Sun, a fact
> well established by science and no longer questioned, which was vehemently
> opposed by established religion, are practicing religion??
> The well-determined fact that the acceleration of gravity on this
> planet
> is 32 ft/sec/sec is really a bit of religious dogma in disguise?
>
> Laurie
>
>
>



  #33 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mr. Gorilla
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Mr. Gorilla" wrote in message:
> > It's obvious that veganism falls under that definition (ie: a cause held
> > onto with adore and believed with strong conviction). So do a lot of

other
> > things that I wouldn't normally consider to be "religions".


"Laurie" wrote in message:
> So, all scientifically-established "principle(s) or system of beliefs"
> are therefore "religion"??
> E.g. ALL mathematicians, math teachers, and students who believe that
> the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is 3.14159...
> are mere religious zealots?

=============

Hey, don't shoot the messenger! I'm just quoting from the definition of
"religion" from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...gion&x=19&y=23
(def. #4 - "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and
faith")

and their definition of "faith":
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...aith&x=18&y=19
(def. #3 - "something that is believed especially with strong conviction")

If you don't agree with their definitions, please go flame THEM about it! I
certainly was surprised by how wide their definition was but who am I to
argue with the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary?

-MG
-----------------
> And how about all those facts and laws firmly established by science?
> Are those who believe that the Earth is in orbit around our Sun, a

fact
> well established by science and no longer questioned, which was vehemently
> opposed by established religion, are practicing religion??
> The well-determined fact that the acceleration of gravity on this

planet
> is 32 ft/sec/sec is really a bit of religious dogma in disguise?
>
> Laurie
>
>
>



  #34 (permalink)   Report Post  
Madelyn Arnold
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Mr. Gorilla mentioned on 12/30:
>... I go back to
> the lacto-vegetarian diet, and I'm OK. I guess I must have "Mahatma Gandhi
> Syndrome" or something, since he ran into the same problem. Except he went
> much longer and nearly died, and could only return to health by taking
> (goat's) milk. Some people seem to do OK on the vegan diet somehow,

though,
> and I certainly respect them for that. I wish I could.
>


We omnivores contain the enzyme systems for utilizing just about anything
that doesn't utilize us first. But it isn't all culture-and-upbringing
after that. It's been my experience that a proportion of adult men lose
flesh and begin to fail unless they can regularly get complex proteins in
compact forms -- such as those deriving from other animals. No, I do
*not* mean all men, and I cannot say whether how these men were
(nutritionally) reared makes the difference (perhaps a large-framed man
reared vegan is less likely to have trouble.) But by 'fail', I mean have
difficulty increasing muscle, and show immune stress (colds, infections,
etc). This may be true for some women; I simply haven't seen that myself.

In aboriginal societies one often finds it's adult males that eat meat most
often, or even at all. To all the reasons advanced for this, we could add
that it might have been observed that it's harder on certain men NOT to eat
the high/complex protein meat, fish, insects. Many societies include fish
in their diets and hold that it is somehow less terrible to cause fish to
die rather than "higher" animals. Maybe a more interesting question would
be why so few modernizing societies continue eating insects. I mean,
intentionally. Insect meal is extremely high quality protein in high
concentration.

[Note that there is no cruelty inherent in drinking milk, even cow's milk.
Had we not intentionally bred cattle producing obscene quantities of milk
over an unnatural length of time, there would be more room for argument;
but the deed is done. The cattle are here, and are now symbiotic with
humans. What should we do with what we have created? Only try to imagine
a Jersey milker trying to outrun wolves. Or a pack of determined
squirrels.]

For those who find that after more than 3 months of a vegan diet they are
feeling damned poorly, I suggest they look closely at altering the balance
of highest-quality protein in their diets. That is: after trying to flow
into a vegan diet in a natural manner, start studying. Study the
composition of foods, particularly FISH, and try to intentionally eat in a
manner that comes close to providing the same amino acids in the same
concentration. I have genuine reverence for those who are trying to tred
lightly while living in this world. I think that sincere vegans whose
bodies will not cooperate aren't necessarily up the creek... And with
gene-splicing among yeast and bacteria available to us, we will soon be
able to remedy any conceivable nutritional difficulties. Like, watch this
space.



  #35 (permalink)   Report Post  
John Coleman
 
Posts: n/a
Default

that is all anecdotal hokum Madelyn

John

"Madelyn Arnold" > wrote in message
.net...
> Mr. Gorilla mentioned on 12/30:
> >... I go back to
> > the lacto-vegetarian diet, and I'm OK. I guess I must have "Mahatma

Gandhi
> > Syndrome" or something, since he ran into the same problem. Except he

went
> > much longer and nearly died, and could only return to health by taking
> > (goat's) milk. Some people seem to do OK on the vegan diet somehow,

> though,
> > and I certainly respect them for that. I wish I could.
> >

>
> We omnivores contain the enzyme systems for utilizing just about anything
> that doesn't utilize us first. But it isn't all culture-and-upbringing
> after that. It's been my experience that a proportion of adult men lose
> flesh and begin to fail unless they can regularly get complex proteins

in
> compact forms -- such as those deriving from other animals. No, I do
> *not* mean all men, and I cannot say whether how these men were
> (nutritionally) reared makes the difference (perhaps a large-framed man
> reared vegan is less likely to have trouble.) But by 'fail', I mean have
> difficulty increasing muscle, and show immune stress (colds, infections,
> etc). This may be true for some women; I simply haven't seen that

myself.
>
> In aboriginal societies one often finds it's adult males that eat meat

most
> often, or even at all. To all the reasons advanced for this, we could

add
> that it might have been observed that it's harder on certain men NOT to

eat
> the high/complex protein meat, fish, insects. Many societies include

fish
> in their diets and hold that it is somehow less terrible to cause fish to
> die rather than "higher" animals. Maybe a more interesting question would
> be why so few modernizing societies continue eating insects. I mean,
> intentionally. Insect meal is extremely high quality protein in high
> concentration.
>
> [Note that there is no cruelty inherent in drinking milk, even cow's

milk.
> Had we not intentionally bred cattle producing obscene quantities of

milk
> over an unnatural length of time, there would be more room for argument;
> but the deed is done. The cattle are here, and are now symbiotic with
> humans. What should we do with what we have created? Only try to

imagine
> a Jersey milker trying to outrun wolves. Or a pack of determined
> squirrels.]
>
> For those who find that after more than 3 months of a vegan diet they are
> feeling damned poorly, I suggest they look closely at altering the

balance
> of highest-quality protein in their diets. That is: after trying to

flow
> into a vegan diet in a natural manner, start studying. Study the
> composition of foods, particularly FISH, and try to intentionally eat in a
> manner that comes close to providing the same amino acids in the same
> concentration. I have genuine reverence for those who are trying to tred
> lightly while living in this world. I think that sincere vegans whose
> bodies will not cooperate aren't necessarily up the creek... And with
> gene-splicing among yeast and bacteria available to us, we will soon be
> able to remedy any conceivable nutritional difficulties. Like, watch

this
> space.
>
>
>





  #36 (permalink)   Report Post  
Madelyn Arnold
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"John Coleman" > wrote in message
...
> that is all anecdotal hokum Madelyn
>
> John
>

Dear John;

I have occasionally heard evidence called either 'hokum' or 'anecdotal', but
I appreciate your adding them together like that -- without any particular
explanation.

And I sincerely thank you for repeating my words so faithfully.

Ah well.

Maddy


  #37 (permalink)   Report Post  
Madelyn Arnold
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"John Coleman" > wrote in message
...
> that is all anecdotal hokum Madelyn
>
> John
>

Dear John;

I have occasionally heard evidence called either 'hokum' or 'anecdotal', but
I appreciate your adding them together like that -- without any particular
explanation.

And I sincerely thank you for repeating my words so faithfully.

Ah well.

Maddy


  #38 (permalink)   Report Post  
Rudy Canoza
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Larry Fruity wrote:

> "Mr. Gorilla" > wrote in message
> ...
>
wrote:

>
>
>>I have seen the light, brother! You guys are right about this. According
>>to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary definition of religion;
>>
>># "4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and
>>faith"
>>
>>And furthermore, the definition of faith:
>># "3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction"
>>
>>It's obvious that veganism falls under that definition (ie: a cause held
>>onto with adore and believed with strong conviction). So do a lot of other
>>things that I wouldn't normally consider to be "religions".

>
> So, all scientifically-established "principle(s) or system of beliefs"
> are therefore "religion"??


No, and that's not what he said, either; that's just
your shabby strawman.
  #39 (permalink)   Report Post  
Rudy Canoza
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Larry Fruity wrote:

> "Mr. Gorilla" > wrote in message
> ...
>
wrote:

>
>
>>I have seen the light, brother! You guys are right about this. According
>>to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary definition of religion;
>>
>># "4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and
>>faith"
>>
>>And furthermore, the definition of faith:
>># "3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction"
>>
>>It's obvious that veganism falls under that definition (ie: a cause held
>>onto with adore and believed with strong conviction). So do a lot of other
>>things that I wouldn't normally consider to be "religions".

>
> So, all scientifically-established "principle(s) or system of beliefs"
> are therefore "religion"??


No, and that's not what he said, either; that's just
your shabby strawman.
  #40 (permalink)   Report Post  
Laurie
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Madelyn Arnold" > wrote in message
.net...

> We omnivores ...

There is not one scrap of scientifically-credible evidence that supports
the "Human Omnivore" myth. Human "omnivorism" is strictly a cultural
epiphenomena, not a nutritional necessity, as it is in the chimp.
http://ecologos.org/chimphunt.htm
http://ecologos.org/anatomy.htm
http://ecologos.org/omni.htm

Laurie


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