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"veganism" is religion
More at Wikipedia:
Veganism as a secular movement is a modern idea, as a reaction to the exploitation of nature, including imposing unnecessary suffering on non-human animals. Although it can be seen as a minor and localised reaction to the excesses of the developed world, the principles behind it can be found in much older ethical/religious doctrine of the East, such as Hinduism, Buddhism or Jainism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan |
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Veganism is NOT religion, or even *a* religion.
Secularism, by definition is NOT concerned with religion. |
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wrote:
> Veganism is NOT religion, or even *a* religion. Yes, it is. > Secularism, by definition is NOT concerned with religion. Veganism isn't secularism. It's a codified belief system: In late 1944, The Vegan Society was established, advocating a totally plant-based diet excluding flesh, fish, fowl, eggs, honey, and animals' milk, butter, and cheese, and also encouraging the manufacture and use of alternatives to animal commodities, including clothing and shoes. The group argued that the elimination of exploitation of any kind was necessary in order to bring about a more reasonable and humane society. FROM ITS INCEPTION, VEGANISM WAS DEFINED AS A "PHILOSOPHY" AND "WAY OF LIVING." IT WAS NEVER INTENDED TO BE MERELY A DIET AND, STILL TODAY, DESCRIBES A LIFESTYLE AND BELIEF SYSTEM THAT REVOLVES AROUND A REVERENCE FOR LIFE. http://www.vegsource.com/jo/veganliving.htm Mr Santos earlier today shared the following with you vegan nitwits: Veganism as a secular movement is a MODERN IDEA, as a reaction to the exploitation of nature, including imposing unnecessary suffering on non-human animals. Although it can be seen as a minor and localised reaction to the excesses of the developed world, the principles behind it can be found in much older ethical/religious doctrine of the East, such as Hinduism, Buddhism or Jainism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegan It is entirely religious, and its adherents are brainless true believers. |
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Veganism is NOT religion, or even *a* religion. - There is no unseen
controlling power or faith in the unproved, as is typical with a religion. A stated conviction to a particular behaviour is not religion. How many people worship MacDonald's? I suggest you read the whole Wikipedia article, if you haven't, and then comment on the whole. Jay Santos replays part of the article that states that veganism is a "secular movement" then you say it's not, and then you replay the same "Veganism as a secular movement". Are you confused? I'm not a vegan nitwit, vegan or a nitwit. - Just trying to gain clarity in peoples thoughts. I see irresponsible extracts, apparent confusion and now insults. |
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Veganism is NOT religion, or even *a* religion. - There is no unseen
controlling power or faith in the unproved, as is typical with a religion. A stated conviction to a particular behaviour is not religion. How many people worship MacDonald's? I suggest you read the whole Wikipedia article, if you haven't, and then comment on the whole. Jay Santos replays part of the article that states that veganism is a "secular movement" then you say it's not, and then you replay the same "Veganism as a secular movement". Are you confused? I'm not a vegan nitwit, vegan or a nitwit. - Just trying to gain clarity in peoples thoughts. I see irresponsible extracts, apparent confusion and now insults. |
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guillaume wrote:
> Veganism is NOT religion, or even *a* religion. You're just repeating your previous unsubstantiated and false claim. |
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So, it's not a religion, but you like to call it one. - That's OK with
me. If veganism is not secular why did you select a passage that stated in the first line "Veganism as a secular movement .."? |
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No. I'm stating facts. - You made the claim that veganism was a
religion, you substantiate it. You've only quoted a passage that starts "Veganism as a secular movement.." under a subject line of "veganism" is religion". That, to me says, you don't know what you're talking about, or are at best, just careless, and what makes it worse, won't admit it. In future, have the decency to address the whole post; otherwise, I and others might think you're incapable of addressing all the points raised. |
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guillaume wrote:
> Veganism is NOT religion, or even *a* religion. - Yes, it is. > There is no unseen > controlling power or faith in the unproved, There *is* a faith in the unproved assertion that one is benefitting animals merely by not eating them. > as is typical with a religion. Not all religions believe in "unseen controlling powers." Buddhism doesn't, yet it's definitely a religion. > A stated conviction to a particular behaviour is not > religion. It is when adherents make absolute moral claims on an axiomatic basis. > How many people worship MacDonald's? > > I suggest you read the whole Wikipedia article, if you haven't, and > then comment on the whole. > > Jay Santos replays part of the article that states that veganism is a > "secular movement" Actually, the statement from that article said "Veganism as a secular movement is a modern idea." That is to say that it wasn't ALWAYS secular. When it was started in 1944, it was a peculiar conglomeration of extremist animal welfare positions interspersed with ideas from certain Eastern religions. Nothing about it has really changed, and it's still exceedingly doctrinaire. Among belief systems (religions), it is among the most dogmatic in the world. > then you say it's not, and then you replay the same > "Veganism as a secular movement". Are you confused? No, *you* are. You're leaving out the rest of the operative phrase: "Veganism as a secular movement IS A MODERN IDEA." > I'm not a vegan nitwit, vegan or a nitwit. I beg to differ. > - Just trying to gain > clarity in peoples thoughts. I see irresponsible extracts, apparent > confusion and now insults. The most irresponsible "extract" thus far is your editing of what was posted. |
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guillaume wrote:
> So, it's not a religion, Yes, it is. It is a belief system. It's as axiomatic as any other religion, and it's rigidly dogmatic. > but you like to call it one. - That's OK with > me. > > If veganism is not secular why did you select a passage that stated in > the first line "Veganism as a secular movement .."? Don't turn to an ellipse when the rest of the sentence is operative: *IS A MODERN IDEA*. It was not originally secular, and even though it's undergone a secularization, it remains at its core fundamentally religious. |
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guillaume wrote:
> No. I'm stating facts. - You made the claim that veganism was a > religion, you substantiate it. > > You've only quoted a passage that starts "Veganism as a secular > movement.." under a subject line of "veganism" is religion". AS is not IS. You twit. > That, to > me says, you don't know what you're talking about, or are at best, just > careless, and what makes it worse, won't admit it. Finish the sentence: Veganism as a secular movement IS A MODERN IDEA. > In future, have the decency to address the whole post; otherwise, I and > others might think you're incapable of addressing all the points raised. Why don't you have the decency to leave in some text so we can tell whom and what you're replying? |
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Espece de con "guillaume" wrote:
> No. I'm stating facts. - You made the claim that veganism was a > religion, you substantiate it. No, you're merely repeating your false and unsubstantiated claim. The substantiation for the observation that "veganism" is a religion has been made in the "vegan"-related newsgroups often and persuasively. Look for it yourself, billy - I'm not here pour faire tes devoirs. |
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> > If veganism is not secular why did you select a passage that stated
in > > the first line "Veganism as a secular movement .."? > > Don't turn to an ellipse when the rest of the sentence is operative: *IS > A MODERN IDEA*. It was not originally secular, and even though it's > undergone a secularization, it remains at its core fundamentally religious. If it's a modern idea, why don't you just go with the flow and live in current times? Regardless of how the word started, and what you think it implies, there is this very real second definition. Just accept that to those of us who don't think it's a religion, it isn't one. -- SN http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/ A huge directory listing over 700 veg recipe sites. Has a fun 'Jump to a Random Link' button. |
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Scented Nectar wrote:
>>>If veganism is not secular why did you select a passage that stated >>>in the first line "Veganism as a secular movement .."? >> >>Don't turn to an ellipse when the rest of the sentence is operative: >>*IS A MODERN IDEA*. It was not originally secular, and even though it's >>undergone a secularization, it remains at its core fundamentally >>religious. > > If it's a modern idea, why don't you just go with > the flow and live in current times? Regardless > of how the word started, and what you think it > implies, there is this very real second definition. No, there isn't, and it's still very much a religion. > Just accept that to those of us who don't think > it's a religion, it isn't one. Veganism is a religion and you're a true believer, part of the vegan amen corner, a bonafide vegan zealot. |
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> > Just accept that to those of us who don't think
> > it's a religion, it isn't one. > > Veganism is a religion and you're a true believer, part of the vegan > amen corner, a bonafide vegan zealot. I think you're paranoid. Has veganism applied for official church status in any country? No. Is veganism an organization? No. Does veganism own any property or churches? No. Are there any (accepted by all) leaders or priests? No. Do vegans these days believe they are in a religion? No. -- SN http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/ A huge directory listing over 700 veg recipe sites. Has a fun 'Jump to a Random Link' button. |
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Scented Nectar wrote:
>>>Just accept that to those of us who don't think >>>it's a religion, it isn't one. >> >>Veganism is a religion and you're a true believer, part of the vegan >>amen corner, a bonafide vegan zealot. > > I think you're paranoid. I'm not paranoid. You just can't handle the truth. > Has veganism applied for > official church status in any country? No. Irrelevant. Many religions never apply for "official church status" -- which isn't required here, except when trying to get tax exemptions (and it needn't be classified as a church to get one). Some find it at odds with their beliefs to seek approval of the state. > Is veganism > an organization? No. It has organizations. Don't forget that it was founded as a *VEGAN SOCIETY*, nitwit. And before you say a "society" can't be a religion, remember what the Quakers call themselves: SOCIETY of Friends. Twit. > Does veganism own any > property or churches? No. Many churches don't own property or church buildings. http://www.home-church.org/ > Are there any (accepted > by all) leaders or priests? No. Wrong. Tom Regan and Peter Singer are the main popes. There are more minor "bishops," and legion evangelists. > Do vegans these > days believe they are in a religion? No. Ipse dixit. Joann Stepaniak and others claim that veganism is a *belief system*, which is a hallmark of any religion. |
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"Jay Santos" > wrote in
ups.com: > Espece de con "guillaume" wrote: > >> No. I'm stating facts. - You made the claim that veganism was a >> religion, you substantiate it. > > No, you're merely repeating your false and unsubstantiated claim. > > The substantiation for the observation that "veganism" is a religion > has been made in the "vegan"-related newsgroups often and persuasively. > Look for it yourself, billy - I'm not here pour faire tes devoirs. > > will you please stop feeding the trolls |
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"usual suspect" > wrote in message ... > wrote: > Veganism isn't secularism. It's a codified belief system: Yet, there is wide disparity and variation among various veg*n diets; why? Not "codified " enough?? > It is entirely religious, and its adherents are brainless true believers. Insults really increase your credibility and self-respect?? Laurie |
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Larry wrote:
>>It is entirely religious, and its adherents are brainless true believers. > > Insults really increase your credibility and self-respect?? No insults, just candor. |
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guillaume wrote:
> So, it's not a religion Yes, it is a religion. |
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Scented Nectar wrote:
>>>If veganism is not secular why did you select a passage that stated > > in > >>>the first line "Veganism as a secular movement .."? >> >>Don't turn to an ellipse when the rest of the sentence is operative: > > *IS > >>A MODERN IDEA*. It was not originally secular, and even though it's >>undergone a secularization, it remains at its core fundamentally > > religious. > > If it's a modern idea, why don't you just go with > the flow and live in current times? Modern does not equal good. |
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"Mr. Gorilla" > wrote in message ...
> > wrote: > > > Veganism is NOT religion, or even *a* religion. > > "usual suspect" > wrote: > > Yes, it is. > =============== > I have seen the light, brother! You guys are right about this. According to > the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary definition of religion; > > # "4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and > faith" > > And furthermore, the definition of faith: > # "3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction" > > It's obvious that veganism falls under that definition (ie: a cause held > onto with adore and believed with strong conviction). So do a lot of other > things that I wouldn't normally consider to be "religions". 'Religion' is generally understood to mean something else, as you know. For the (secular) _ethical_ vegan, what is "held to" is humanity itself.. 'hu·man·i·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hy-mn-t) n. pl. hu·man·i·ties 1. Humans considered as a group; the human race. 2. The condition or quality of being human. 3. The quality of being humane; benevolence.* 4. A humane characteristic, attribute, or act.* http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=humanity 'hu·mane ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hy-mn) adj. 1. Characterized by kindness, mercy, or compassion: ... ** 2. Marked by an emphasis on humanistic values and concerns: .. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=humane They are compassionate because-- that's how we are. -Lack of empathy- is a trait of severe personality disorder.. 'Psychopathy is a concept subject to much debate, but is usually defined as a constellation of affective, interpersonal, and behavioral characteristics including egocentricity; impulsivity; irresponsibility; shallow emotions; lack of empathy, guilt, or remorse; pathological lying; manipulativeness; and the persistent violation of social norms and expectations (Cleckley 1976; Hare 1993). The crimes of psychopaths are usually stone-cold, remorseless killings for no apparent reason. They cold-bloodedly take what they want and do as they please without the slightest sense of guilt or regret. In many ways, they are natural-born intraspecies predators who satisfy their lust for power and control by charm, manipulation, intimidation, and violence. ....' http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/428/428lect16.htm > But anyway, what I wanna know is, can I attain spiritual salvation if I go > vegan, brother? Can I bow down before the Lettuce Lord, and nibble my way to > Nirvana? Can spiritual awakening/enlightenment be achieved through (this) > diet alone? If so, then I would consider veganism to be a religion. But if > there's no "spiritual salvation" in it (and I certainly don't think there > is), then to me veganism is not a religion. But that's just my opinion FWIW, It can be a fundamental aspect of religion, for sure, even a requirement; '9. And some of the people said, This man careth for all creatures, are they his brothers and sisters that he should love them ? And he said unto them, Verily these are your fellow creatures of the great Household of God, yea, they are your brethren and sisters, having the same breath of life in the Eternal. 10. And whosoever careth for one of the least of these, and giveth it to eat and drink in its need, the same doeth it unto me, and whoso willingly suffereth one of these to be in want, and defendeth it not when evilly entreated, suffereth the evil as done unto me; for as ye have done in this life, so shall it be done unto you in the life to come.' http://www.essene.com/NazareneGospel...12_4.html#gn34 "For of the fruits of the trees and the seeds of the herbs alone do I partake, and these are changed by the Spirit into my flesh and my blood. Of these alone and their like shall ye eat who believe in me, and are my disciples, for of these, in the Spirit come life and health and healing unto man. " http://www.essene.com/NazareneGospel/Holy_12_4.html |
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"Jay Santos" > wrote in message
k.net... > Scented Nectar wrote: > > >>>If veganism is not secular why did you select a passage that stated > > > > in > > > >>>the first line "Veganism as a secular movement .."? > >> > >>Don't turn to an ellipse when the rest of the sentence is operative: > > > > *IS > > > >>A MODERN IDEA*. It was not originally secular, and even though it's > >>undergone a secularization, it remains at its core fundamentally > > > > religious. > > > > If it's a modern idea, why don't you just go with > > the flow and live in current times? > > Modern does not equal good. You mean it's not good when it doesn't agree with your opinions. Face it, to some if not most vegans, it isn't a religion. You want it to be one so that you can pick on it for being one. That's why you refuse to believe that it's not necessarily anything to do with religion at all. Modern indicates that there is a current definition that is secular. -- SN http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/ A huge directory listing over 700 veg recipe sites. Has a fun 'Jump to a Random Link' button. |
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Scented Nectar wrote:
> "Jay Santos" > wrote in message > k.net... > >>Scented Nectar wrote: >> >> >>>>>If veganism is not secular why did you select a passage that stated >>> >>>in >>> >>> >>>>>the first line "Veganism as a secular movement .."? >>>> >>>>Don't turn to an ellipse when the rest of the sentence is operative: >>> >>>*IS >>> >>> >>>>A MODERN IDEA*. It was not originally secular, and even though it's >>>>undergone a secularization, it remains at its core fundamentally >>> >>>religious. >>> >>>If it's a modern idea, why don't you just go with >>>the flow and live in current times? >> >>Modern does not equal good. > > > You mean it's not good when it doesn't agree > with your opinions. No, asshole. I mean, modern does not equal good. Islamic radicalism/terrorism is "modern", for example. Progress is not inevitable merely with the passage of time. > Face it, to some if not > most vegans, it isn't a religion. Yes, it IS a religion, whether you call it one or not. It has ALL the relevant traits of religion, but chiefly blind and unquestioning belief in a rule that is supposedly "spiritually" based. > You want it to be one so No, it just IS one. > that you can pick on it for being > one. That's why you refuse to believe that > it's not necessarily anything to do with > religion at all. It IS a religion. |
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"Mr. Gorilla" > wrote in message:
> > It's obvious that veganism falls under that definition (ie: a cause held > > onto with adore and believed with strong conviction). So do a lot of other > > things that I wouldn't normally consider to be "religions". "pearl" > wrote in message: > 'Religion' is generally understood to mean something else, as you know. =========== Yes.... Actually, I was kind of hoping that one of those who claim that veganism is a religion would respond and tell me that. And then perhaps exactly how veganism claims to bring about "spiritual salvation", as other religions do, if the meaning that you're implying is what they also have in mind. But, none of them took the bait. Oh well... "pearl" > wrote (r.e. vegans): > They are compassionate because-- that's how we are. And, FWIW, I have a lot of respect for you as a vegan because of that - I don't know how you do it. I was a (whole foods) vegan for 1 1/2 years about 20 years ago (after several years as a lacto-vegetarian). I felt really malnourished by the end, like I was developing serious dietary deficiencies. I couldn't stand it anymore so I went back to including milk in my diet and that fixed the problem. I've tried veganism several more times over the years since then, and the same thing always happens. After a few months I begin to feel like I'm developing nutritional deficiencies, so I go back to the lacto-vegetarian diet, and I'm OK. I guess I must have "Mahatma Gandhi Syndrome" or something, since he ran into the same problem. Except he went much longer and nearly died, and could only return to health by taking (goat's) milk. Some people seem to do OK on the vegan diet somehow, though, and I certainly respect them for that. I wish I could. "pearl" > wrote: > It can be a fundamental aspect of religion, for sure, even a requirement; Oh yes, definitely. In fact it was my interest in Buddhism that originally got me interested in becoming a vegetarian long ago. (Although vegetarianism isn't a requirement with Buddhism, it does play a role, as you probably know). But I have to say to those who think veganism is a religion in itself, if I had to rate it as a religion I'd say it makes a very poor one. During my 1 1/2 years as a vegan it provided no sense of, or even hope for spiritual fulfillment of any kind. A definite thumbs down from me for veganism as a religion. -MG |
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"Mr. Gorilla" > wrote in message . ..
> "Mr. Gorilla" > wrote in message: > > > It's obvious that veganism falls under that definition (ie: a cause held > > > onto with adore and believed with strong conviction). So do a lot of > other > > > things that I wouldn't normally consider to be "religions". > > "pearl" > wrote in message: > > 'Religion' is generally understood to mean something else, as you know. > =========== > > Yes.... Actually, I was kind of hoping that one of those who claim that > veganism is a religion would respond and tell me that. > > And then perhaps > exactly how veganism claims to bring about "spiritual salvation", as other > religions do, if the meaning that you're implying is what they also have in > mind. But, none of them took the bait. Oh well... And prick their own bubble? (Let them play.. such pretty colours.. > "pearl" > wrote (r.e. vegans): > > They are compassionate because-- that's how we are. > > And, FWIW, I have a lot of respect for you as a vegan because of that - I I keep a happy nanny goat and chickens, as it goes. I rarely eat eggs though. > don't know how you do it. I was a (whole foods) vegan for 1 1/2 years about > 20 years ago (after several years as a lacto-vegetarian). I felt really > malnourished by the end, like I was developing serious dietary deficiencies. I'd have to ask for details of your diet and health status to try to ascertain why that might be.. For example, were you eating organic foods, seeds.. > I couldn't stand it anymore so I went back to including milk in my diet and > that fixed the problem. I've tried veganism several more times over the > years since then, and the same thing always happens. After a few months I > begin to feel like I'm developing nutritional deficiencies, so I go back to > the lacto-vegetarian diet, and I'm OK. I guess I must have "Mahatma Gandhi > Syndrome" or something, since he ran into the same problem. Except he went > much longer and nearly died, and could only return to health by taking > (goat's) milk. Some people seem to do OK on the vegan diet somehow, though, > and I certainly respect them for that. I wish I could. Getting information in afv and from other good resources is the way to go. In the meantime, advise of course getting organic milk and free-range eggs. <..> |
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"Mr. Gorilla" > wrote in message ... >> wrote: > I have seen the light, brother! You guys are right about this. According > to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary definition of religion; > > # "4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and > faith" > > And furthermore, the definition of faith: > # "3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction" > > It's obvious that veganism falls under that definition (ie: a cause held > onto with adore and believed with strong conviction). So do a lot of other > things that I wouldn't normally consider to be "religions". So, all scientifically-established "principle(s) or system of beliefs" are therefore "religion"?? E.g. ALL mathematicians, math teachers, and students who believe that the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is 3.14159... are mere religious zealots? And how about all those facts and laws firmly established by science? Are those who believe that the Earth is in orbit around our Sun, a fact well established by science and no longer questioned, which was vehemently opposed by established religion, are practicing religion?? The well-determined fact that the acceleration of gravity on this planet is 32 ft/sec/sec is really a bit of religious dogma in disguise? Laurie |
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"Laurie" > wrote ...
> E.g., many people choose a plant-based diet for the well documented, by > the scientific establishment, beneficial health effects. Quit lying, the issue in contention has never been "plant-based diets", it is "nothing-but-plants diets". |
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"Laurie" > wrote in message ... > > "Mr. Gorilla" > wrote in message > ... >>> wrote: > >> I have seen the light, brother! You guys are right about this. According >> to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary definition of religion; >> >> # "4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and >> faith" >> >> And furthermore, the definition of faith: >> # "3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction" >> >> It's obvious that veganism falls under that definition (ie: a cause held >> onto with adore and believed with strong conviction). So do a lot of >> other >> things that I wouldn't normally consider to be "religions". > So, all scientifically-established "principle(s) or system of beliefs" > are therefore "religion"?? > E.g. ALL mathematicians, math teachers, and students who believe that > the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is 3.14159... > are mere religious zealots? ================= No, fool. The problem you have is that your psuedo-science doesn't qualify as real science. So, you're just another rube that's bought into the religion of faith... > And how about all those facts and laws firmly established by science? > Are those who believe that the Earth is in orbit around our Sun, a fact > well established by science and no longer questioned, which was vehemently > opposed by established religion, are practicing religion?? > The well-determined fact that the acceleration of gravity on this > planet > is 32 ft/sec/sec is really a bit of religious dogma in disguise? > > Laurie > > > |
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"Mr. Gorilla" wrote in message:
> > It's obvious that veganism falls under that definition (ie: a cause held > > onto with adore and believed with strong conviction). So do a lot of other > > things that I wouldn't normally consider to be "religions". "Laurie" wrote in message: > So, all scientifically-established "principle(s) or system of beliefs" > are therefore "religion"?? > E.g. ALL mathematicians, math teachers, and students who believe that > the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is 3.14159... > are mere religious zealots? ============= Hey, don't shoot the messenger! I'm just quoting from the definition of "religion" from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...gion&x=19&y=23 (def. #4 - "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith") and their definition of "faith": http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...aith&x=18&y=19 (def. #3 - "something that is believed especially with strong conviction") If you don't agree with their definitions, please go flame THEM about it! I certainly was surprised by how wide their definition was but who am I to argue with the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary? -MG ----------------- > And how about all those facts and laws firmly established by science? > Are those who believe that the Earth is in orbit around our Sun, a fact > well established by science and no longer questioned, which was vehemently > opposed by established religion, are practicing religion?? > The well-determined fact that the acceleration of gravity on this planet > is 32 ft/sec/sec is really a bit of religious dogma in disguise? > > Laurie > > > |
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Mr. Gorilla mentioned on 12/30:
>... I go back to > the lacto-vegetarian diet, and I'm OK. I guess I must have "Mahatma Gandhi > Syndrome" or something, since he ran into the same problem. Except he went > much longer and nearly died, and could only return to health by taking > (goat's) milk. Some people seem to do OK on the vegan diet somehow, though, > and I certainly respect them for that. I wish I could. > We omnivores contain the enzyme systems for utilizing just about anything that doesn't utilize us first. But it isn't all culture-and-upbringing after that. It's been my experience that a proportion of adult men lose flesh and begin to fail unless they can regularly get complex proteins in compact forms -- such as those deriving from other animals. No, I do *not* mean all men, and I cannot say whether how these men were (nutritionally) reared makes the difference (perhaps a large-framed man reared vegan is less likely to have trouble.) But by 'fail', I mean have difficulty increasing muscle, and show immune stress (colds, infections, etc). This may be true for some women; I simply haven't seen that myself. In aboriginal societies one often finds it's adult males that eat meat most often, or even at all. To all the reasons advanced for this, we could add that it might have been observed that it's harder on certain men NOT to eat the high/complex protein meat, fish, insects. Many societies include fish in their diets and hold that it is somehow less terrible to cause fish to die rather than "higher" animals. Maybe a more interesting question would be why so few modernizing societies continue eating insects. I mean, intentionally. Insect meal is extremely high quality protein in high concentration. [Note that there is no cruelty inherent in drinking milk, even cow's milk. Had we not intentionally bred cattle producing obscene quantities of milk over an unnatural length of time, there would be more room for argument; but the deed is done. The cattle are here, and are now symbiotic with humans. What should we do with what we have created? Only try to imagine a Jersey milker trying to outrun wolves. Or a pack of determined squirrels.] For those who find that after more than 3 months of a vegan diet they are feeling damned poorly, I suggest they look closely at altering the balance of highest-quality protein in their diets. That is: after trying to flow into a vegan diet in a natural manner, start studying. Study the composition of foods, particularly FISH, and try to intentionally eat in a manner that comes close to providing the same amino acids in the same concentration. I have genuine reverence for those who are trying to tred lightly while living in this world. I think that sincere vegans whose bodies will not cooperate aren't necessarily up the creek... And with gene-splicing among yeast and bacteria available to us, we will soon be able to remedy any conceivable nutritional difficulties. Like, watch this space. |
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that is all anecdotal hokum Madelyn
John "Madelyn Arnold" > wrote in message .net... > Mr. Gorilla mentioned on 12/30: > >... I go back to > > the lacto-vegetarian diet, and I'm OK. I guess I must have "Mahatma Gandhi > > Syndrome" or something, since he ran into the same problem. Except he went > > much longer and nearly died, and could only return to health by taking > > (goat's) milk. Some people seem to do OK on the vegan diet somehow, > though, > > and I certainly respect them for that. I wish I could. > > > > We omnivores contain the enzyme systems for utilizing just about anything > that doesn't utilize us first. But it isn't all culture-and-upbringing > after that. It's been my experience that a proportion of adult men lose > flesh and begin to fail unless they can regularly get complex proteins in > compact forms -- such as those deriving from other animals. No, I do > *not* mean all men, and I cannot say whether how these men were > (nutritionally) reared makes the difference (perhaps a large-framed man > reared vegan is less likely to have trouble.) But by 'fail', I mean have > difficulty increasing muscle, and show immune stress (colds, infections, > etc). This may be true for some women; I simply haven't seen that myself. > > In aboriginal societies one often finds it's adult males that eat meat most > often, or even at all. To all the reasons advanced for this, we could add > that it might have been observed that it's harder on certain men NOT to eat > the high/complex protein meat, fish, insects. Many societies include fish > in their diets and hold that it is somehow less terrible to cause fish to > die rather than "higher" animals. Maybe a more interesting question would > be why so few modernizing societies continue eating insects. I mean, > intentionally. Insect meal is extremely high quality protein in high > concentration. > > [Note that there is no cruelty inherent in drinking milk, even cow's milk. > Had we not intentionally bred cattle producing obscene quantities of milk > over an unnatural length of time, there would be more room for argument; > but the deed is done. The cattle are here, and are now symbiotic with > humans. What should we do with what we have created? Only try to imagine > a Jersey milker trying to outrun wolves. Or a pack of determined > squirrels.] > > For those who find that after more than 3 months of a vegan diet they are > feeling damned poorly, I suggest they look closely at altering the balance > of highest-quality protein in their diets. That is: after trying to flow > into a vegan diet in a natural manner, start studying. Study the > composition of foods, particularly FISH, and try to intentionally eat in a > manner that comes close to providing the same amino acids in the same > concentration. I have genuine reverence for those who are trying to tred > lightly while living in this world. I think that sincere vegans whose > bodies will not cooperate aren't necessarily up the creek... And with > gene-splicing among yeast and bacteria available to us, we will soon be > able to remedy any conceivable nutritional difficulties. Like, watch this > space. > > > |
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"John Coleman" > wrote in message ... > that is all anecdotal hokum Madelyn > > John > Dear John; I have occasionally heard evidence called either 'hokum' or 'anecdotal', but I appreciate your adding them together like that -- without any particular explanation. And I sincerely thank you for repeating my words so faithfully. Ah well. Maddy |
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"John Coleman" > wrote in message ... > that is all anecdotal hokum Madelyn > > John > Dear John; I have occasionally heard evidence called either 'hokum' or 'anecdotal', but I appreciate your adding them together like that -- without any particular explanation. And I sincerely thank you for repeating my words so faithfully. Ah well. Maddy |
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Larry Fruity wrote:
> "Mr. Gorilla" > wrote in message > ... > wrote: > > >>I have seen the light, brother! You guys are right about this. According >>to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary definition of religion; >> >># "4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and >>faith" >> >>And furthermore, the definition of faith: >># "3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction" >> >>It's obvious that veganism falls under that definition (ie: a cause held >>onto with adore and believed with strong conviction). So do a lot of other >>things that I wouldn't normally consider to be "religions". > > So, all scientifically-established "principle(s) or system of beliefs" > are therefore "religion"?? No, and that's not what he said, either; that's just your shabby strawman. |
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Larry Fruity wrote:
> "Mr. Gorilla" > wrote in message > ... > wrote: > > >>I have seen the light, brother! You guys are right about this. According >>to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary definition of religion; >> >># "4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and >>faith" >> >>And furthermore, the definition of faith: >># "3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction" >> >>It's obvious that veganism falls under that definition (ie: a cause held >>onto with adore and believed with strong conviction). So do a lot of other >>things that I wouldn't normally consider to be "religions". > > So, all scientifically-established "principle(s) or system of beliefs" > are therefore "religion"?? No, and that's not what he said, either; that's just your shabby strawman. |
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"Madelyn Arnold" > wrote in message .net... > We omnivores ... There is not one scrap of scientifically-credible evidence that supports the "Human Omnivore" myth. Human "omnivorism" is strictly a cultural epiphenomena, not a nutritional necessity, as it is in the chimp. http://ecologos.org/chimphunt.htm http://ecologos.org/anatomy.htm http://ecologos.org/omni.htm Laurie |
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