Vegan (alt.food.vegan) This newsgroup exists to share ideas and issues of concern among vegans. We are always happy to share our recipes- perhaps especially with omnivores who are simply curious- or even better, accomodating a vegan guest for a meal!

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  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 05-01-2005, 09:01 PM
Dutch
 
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"Laurie" wrote ...
E.g., many people choose a plant-based diet for the well documented,

by
the scientific establishment, beneficial health effects.


Quit lying, the issue in contention has never been "plant-based diets", it
is "nothing-but-plants diets".



  #32 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 05-01-2005, 10:58 PM
rick etter
 
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"Laurie" wrote in message
...

"Mr. Gorilla" wrote in message
...
wrote:


I have seen the light, brother! You guys are right about this. According
to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary definition of religion;

# "4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and
faith"

And furthermore, the definition of faith:
# "3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction"

It's obvious that veganism falls under that definition (ie: a cause held
onto with adore and believed with strong conviction). So do a lot of
other
things that I wouldn't normally consider to be "religions".

So, all scientifically-established "principle(s) or system of beliefs"
are therefore "religion"??
E.g. ALL mathematicians, math teachers, and students who believe that
the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is 3.14159...
are mere religious zealots?

=================
No, fool. The problem you have is that your psuedo-science doesn't qualify
as real science. So, you're just another rube that's bought into the
religion of faith...


And how about all those facts and laws firmly established by science?
Are those who believe that the Earth is in orbit around our Sun, a fact
well established by science and no longer questioned, which was vehemently
opposed by established religion, are practicing religion??
The well-determined fact that the acceleration of gravity on this
planet
is 32 ft/sec/sec is really a bit of religious dogma in disguise?

Laurie





  #33 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 06-01-2005, 02:26 AM
Mr. Gorilla
 
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"Mr. Gorilla" wrote in message:
It's obvious that veganism falls under that definition (ie: a cause held
onto with adore and believed with strong conviction). So do a lot of

other
things that I wouldn't normally consider to be "religions".


"Laurie" wrote in message:
So, all scientifically-established "principle(s) or system of beliefs"
are therefore "religion"??
E.g. ALL mathematicians, math teachers, and students who believe that
the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter is 3.14159...
are mere religious zealots?

=============

Hey, don't shoot the messenger! I'm just quoting from the definition of
"religion" from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...gion&x=19&y=23
(def. #4 - "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and
faith")

and their definition of "faith":
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...aith&x=18&y=19
(def. #3 - "something that is believed especially with strong conviction")

If you don't agree with their definitions, please go flame THEM about it! I
certainly was surprised by how wide their definition was but who am I to
argue with the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary?

-MG
-----------------
And how about all those facts and laws firmly established by science?
Are those who believe that the Earth is in orbit around our Sun, a

fact
well established by science and no longer questioned, which was vehemently
opposed by established religion, are practicing religion??
The well-determined fact that the acceleration of gravity on this

planet
is 32 ft/sec/sec is really a bit of religious dogma in disguise?

Laurie





  #34 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 08-01-2005, 12:48 PM
Madelyn Arnold
 
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Mr. Gorilla mentioned on 12/30:
... I go back to
the lacto-vegetarian diet, and I'm OK. I guess I must have "Mahatma Gandhi
Syndrome" or something, since he ran into the same problem. Except he went
much longer and nearly died, and could only return to health by taking
(goat's) milk. Some people seem to do OK on the vegan diet somehow,

though,
and I certainly respect them for that. I wish I could.


We omnivores contain the enzyme systems for utilizing just about anything
that doesn't utilize us first. But it isn't all culture-and-upbringing
after that. It's been my experience that a proportion of adult men lose
flesh and begin to fail unless they can regularly get complex proteins in
compact forms -- such as those deriving from other animals. No, I do
*not* mean all men, and I cannot say whether how these men were
(nutritionally) reared makes the difference (perhaps a large-framed man
reared vegan is less likely to have trouble.) But by 'fail', I mean have
difficulty increasing muscle, and show immune stress (colds, infections,
etc). This may be true for some women; I simply haven't seen that myself.

In aboriginal societies one often finds it's adult males that eat meat most
often, or even at all. To all the reasons advanced for this, we could add
that it might have been observed that it's harder on certain men NOT to eat
the high/complex protein meat, fish, insects. Many societies include fish
in their diets and hold that it is somehow less terrible to cause fish to
die rather than "higher" animals. Maybe a more interesting question would
be why so few modernizing societies continue eating insects. I mean,
intentionally. Insect meal is extremely high quality protein in high
concentration.

[Note that there is no cruelty inherent in drinking milk, even cow's milk.
Had we not intentionally bred cattle producing obscene quantities of milk
over an unnatural length of time, there would be more room for argument;
but the deed is done. The cattle are here, and are now symbiotic with
humans. What should we do with what we have created? Only try to imagine
a Jersey milker trying to outrun wolves. Or a pack of determined
squirrels.]

For those who find that after more than 3 months of a vegan diet they are
feeling damned poorly, I suggest they look closely at altering the balance
of highest-quality protein in their diets. That is: after trying to flow
into a vegan diet in a natural manner, start studying. Study the
composition of foods, particularly FISH, and try to intentionally eat in a
manner that comes close to providing the same amino acids in the same
concentration. I have genuine reverence for those who are trying to tred
lightly while living in this world. I think that sincere vegans whose
bodies will not cooperate aren't necessarily up the creek... And with
gene-splicing among yeast and bacteria available to us, we will soon be
able to remedy any conceivable nutritional difficulties. Like, watch this
space.



  #35 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 08-01-2005, 02:24 PM
John Coleman
 
Posts: n/a
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that is all anecdotal hokum Madelyn

John

"Madelyn Arnold" wrote in message
.net...
Mr. Gorilla mentioned on 12/30:
... I go back to
the lacto-vegetarian diet, and I'm OK. I guess I must have "Mahatma

Gandhi
Syndrome" or something, since he ran into the same problem. Except he

went
much longer and nearly died, and could only return to health by taking
(goat's) milk. Some people seem to do OK on the vegan diet somehow,

though,
and I certainly respect them for that. I wish I could.


We omnivores contain the enzyme systems for utilizing just about anything
that doesn't utilize us first. But it isn't all culture-and-upbringing
after that. It's been my experience that a proportion of adult men lose
flesh and begin to fail unless they can regularly get complex proteins

in
compact forms -- such as those deriving from other animals. No, I do
*not* mean all men, and I cannot say whether how these men were
(nutritionally) reared makes the difference (perhaps a large-framed man
reared vegan is less likely to have trouble.) But by 'fail', I mean have
difficulty increasing muscle, and show immune stress (colds, infections,
etc). This may be true for some women; I simply haven't seen that

myself.

In aboriginal societies one often finds it's adult males that eat meat

most
often, or even at all. To all the reasons advanced for this, we could

add
that it might have been observed that it's harder on certain men NOT to

eat
the high/complex protein meat, fish, insects. Many societies include

fish
in their diets and hold that it is somehow less terrible to cause fish to
die rather than "higher" animals. Maybe a more interesting question would
be why so few modernizing societies continue eating insects. I mean,
intentionally. Insect meal is extremely high quality protein in high
concentration.

[Note that there is no cruelty inherent in drinking milk, even cow's

milk.
Had we not intentionally bred cattle producing obscene quantities of

milk
over an unnatural length of time, there would be more room for argument;
but the deed is done. The cattle are here, and are now symbiotic with
humans. What should we do with what we have created? Only try to

imagine
a Jersey milker trying to outrun wolves. Or a pack of determined
squirrels.]

For those who find that after more than 3 months of a vegan diet they are
feeling damned poorly, I suggest they look closely at altering the

balance
of highest-quality protein in their diets. That is: after trying to

flow
into a vegan diet in a natural manner, start studying. Study the
composition of foods, particularly FISH, and try to intentionally eat in a
manner that comes close to providing the same amino acids in the same
concentration. I have genuine reverence for those who are trying to tred
lightly while living in this world. I think that sincere vegans whose
bodies will not cooperate aren't necessarily up the creek... And with
gene-splicing among yeast and bacteria available to us, we will soon be
able to remedy any conceivable nutritional difficulties. Like, watch

this
space.







  #36 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 09-01-2005, 03:09 PM
Madelyn Arnold
 
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"John Coleman" wrote in message
...
that is all anecdotal hokum Madelyn

John

Dear John;

I have occasionally heard evidence called either 'hokum' or 'anecdotal', but
I appreciate your adding them together like that -- without any particular
explanation.

And I sincerely thank you for repeating my words so faithfully.

Ah well.

Maddy


  #37 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 09-01-2005, 03:09 PM
Madelyn Arnold
 
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Default


"John Coleman" wrote in message
...
that is all anecdotal hokum Madelyn

John

Dear John;

I have occasionally heard evidence called either 'hokum' or 'anecdotal', but
I appreciate your adding them together like that -- without any particular
explanation.

And I sincerely thank you for repeating my words so faithfully.

Ah well.

Maddy


  #38 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 14-01-2005, 07:50 AM
Rudy Canoza
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Larry Fruity wrote:

"Mr. Gorilla" wrote in message
...

wrote:



I have seen the light, brother! You guys are right about this. According
to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary definition of religion;

# "4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and
faith"

And furthermore, the definition of faith:
# "3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction"

It's obvious that veganism falls under that definition (ie: a cause held
onto with adore and believed with strong conviction). So do a lot of other
things that I wouldn't normally consider to be "religions".


So, all scientifically-established "principle(s) or system of beliefs"
are therefore "religion"??


No, and that's not what he said, either; that's just
your shabby strawman.
  #39 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 14-01-2005, 07:50 AM
Rudy Canoza
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Larry Fruity wrote:

"Mr. Gorilla" wrote in message
...

wrote:



I have seen the light, brother! You guys are right about this. According
to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary definition of religion;

# "4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and
faith"

And furthermore, the definition of faith:
# "3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction"

It's obvious that veganism falls under that definition (ie: a cause held
onto with adore and believed with strong conviction). So do a lot of other
things that I wouldn't normally consider to be "religions".


So, all scientifically-established "principle(s) or system of beliefs"
are therefore "religion"??


No, and that's not what he said, either; that's just
your shabby strawman.
  #40 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 27-01-2005, 08:39 PM
Laurie
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Madelyn Arnold" wrote in message
.net...

We omnivores ...

There is not one scrap of scientifically-credible evidence that supports
the "Human Omnivore" myth. Human "omnivorism" is strictly a cultural
epiphenomena, not a nutritional necessity, as it is in the chimp.
http://ecologos.org/chimphunt.htm
http://ecologos.org/anatomy.htm
http://ecologos.org/omni.htm

Laurie




  #41 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 28-01-2005, 12:00 AM
[email protected]
 
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On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:39:35 -1000, "Laurie" wrote:


"Madelyn Arnold" wrote in message
k.net...

We omnivores ...

There is not one scrap of scientifically-credible evidence that supports
the "Human Omnivore" myth.


I'm a human omnivore.

Human "omnivorism" is strictly a cultural
epiphenomena, not a nutritional necessity,


I don't care, and you don't know.

as it is in the chimp.
http://ecologos.org/chimphunt.htm
http://ecologos.org/anatomy.htm
http://ecologos.org/omni.htm

Laurie


  #42 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 22-03-2005, 12:47 AM
Ray
 
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"Laurie" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...

Human "omnivorism" is strictly a cultural
epiphenomena, not a nutritional necessity,


I don't care, and you don't know.

We all know you "don't care" about human health or human nutrition,
that's blatantly obvious from your endless, irrational, never-supported CD
propaganda.
I "don't know"?? You have never, in several years, been able to
disprove anything I have said with facts and logic. You, like the other
anti-vegan, meat propagandists here, do not have the ability to enter into
a polite, academic discussion.

Laurie


But he's got a good dictionary Laurie. I like a polite, academic discussion,
it's the other ****s that are the problem:-)




  #43 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 22-03-2005, 05:14 PM
Abner Hale
 
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Ray wrote:
"Laurie" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...

Human "omnivorism" is strictly a cultural
epiphenomena, not a nutritional necessity,

I don't care, and you don't know.

We all know you "don't care" about human health or human

nutrition,
that's blatantly obvious from your endless, irrational,

never-supported CD
propaganda.
I "don't know"?? You have never, in several years, been able to


disprove anything I have said with facts and logic. You, like the

other
anti-vegan, meat propagandists here, do not have the ability to

enter into
a polite, academic discussion.

Laurie


But he's got a good dictionary Laurie. I like a polite, academic

discussion,
it's the other ****s that are the problem:-)


Liars are a big problem, Ray. Liars like you.

  #44 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 22-03-2005, 05:14 PM
Abner Hale
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Ray wrote:
"Laurie" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...

Human "omnivorism" is strictly a cultural
epiphenomena, not a nutritional necessity,

I don't care, and you don't know.

We all know you "don't care" about human health or human

nutrition,
that's blatantly obvious from your endless, irrational,

never-supported CD
propaganda.
I "don't know"?? You have never, in several years, been able to


disprove anything I have said with facts and logic. You, like the

other
anti-vegan, meat propagandists here, do not have the ability to

enter into
a polite, academic discussion.

Laurie


But he's got a good dictionary Laurie. I like a polite, academic

discussion,
it's the other ****s that are the problem:-)


Liars are a big problem, Ray. Liars like you.



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