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  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-12-2004, 12:44 AM
usual suspect
 
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Scented Nectar wrote:
If veganism is not secular why did you select a passage that stated
in the first line "Veganism as a secular movement .."?


Don't turn to an ellipse when the rest of the sentence is operative:
*IS A MODERN IDEA*. It was not originally secular, and even though it's
undergone a secularization, it remains at its core fundamentally
religious.


If it's a modern idea, why don't you just go with
the flow and live in current times? Regardless
of how the word started, and what you think it
implies, there is this very real second definition.


No, there isn't, and it's still very much a religion.

Just accept that to those of us who don't think
it's a religion, it isn't one.


Veganism is a religion and you're a true believer, part of the vegan
amen corner, a bonafide vegan zealot.

  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-12-2004, 12:56 AM
Scented Nectar
 
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Just accept that to those of us who don't think
it's a religion, it isn't one.


Veganism is a religion and you're a true believer, part of the vegan
amen corner, a bonafide vegan zealot.


I think you're paranoid. Has veganism applied for
official church status in any country? No. Is veganism
an organization? No. Does veganism own any
property or churches? No. Are there any (accepted
by all) leaders or priests? No. Do vegans these
days believe they are in a religion? No.


--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/
A huge directory listing over 700 veg recipe sites.
Has a fun 'Jump to a Random Link' button.


  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-12-2004, 01:29 AM
usual suspect
 
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Scented Nectar wrote:
Just accept that to those of us who don't think
it's a religion, it isn't one.


Veganism is a religion and you're a true believer, part of the vegan
amen corner, a bonafide vegan zealot.


I think you're paranoid.


I'm not paranoid. You just can't handle the truth.

Has veganism applied for
official church status in any country? No.


Irrelevant. Many religions never apply for "official church status" --
which isn't required here, except when trying to get tax exemptions (and
it needn't be classified as a church to get one). Some find it at odds
with their beliefs to seek approval of the state.

Is veganism
an organization? No.


It has organizations. Don't forget that it was founded as a *VEGAN
SOCIETY*, nitwit. And before you say a "society" can't be a religion,
remember what the Quakers call themselves: SOCIETY of Friends. Twit.

Does veganism own any
property or churches? No.


Many churches don't own property or church buildings.
http://www.home-church.org/

Are there any (accepted
by all) leaders or priests? No.


Wrong. Tom Regan and Peter Singer are the main popes. There are more
minor "bishops," and legion evangelists.

Do vegans these
days believe they are in a religion? No.


Ipse dixit. Joann Stepaniak and others claim that veganism is a *belief
system*, which is a hallmark of any religion.
  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-12-2004, 03:16 AM
lostcherree
 
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"Jay Santos" wrote in
ups.com:

Espece de con "guillaume" wrote:

No. I'm stating facts. - You made the claim that veganism was a
religion, you substantiate it.


No, you're merely repeating your false and unsubstantiated claim.

The substantiation for the observation that "veganism" is a religion
has been made in the "vegan"-related newsgroups often and persuasively.
Look for it yourself, billy - I'm not here pour faire tes devoirs.



will you please stop feeding the trolls
  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-12-2004, 04:22 AM
usual suspect
 
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Larry wrote:
It is entirely religious, and its adherents are brainless true believers.


Insults really increase your credibility and self-respect??


No insults, just candor.
  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-12-2004, 06:48 AM
Jay Santos
 
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guillaume wrote:
So, it's not a religion


Yes, it is a religion.
  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-12-2004, 06:48 AM
Jay Santos
 
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Scented Nectar wrote:

If veganism is not secular why did you select a passage that stated


in

the first line "Veganism as a secular movement .."?


Don't turn to an ellipse when the rest of the sentence is operative:


*IS

A MODERN IDEA*. It was not originally secular, and even though it's
undergone a secularization, it remains at its core fundamentally


religious.

If it's a modern idea, why don't you just go with
the flow and live in current times?


Modern does not equal good.
  #25 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-12-2004, 01:53 PM
pearl
 
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"Mr. Gorilla" wrote in message ...
wrote:
Veganism is NOT religion, or even *a* religion.


"usual suspect" wrote:
Yes, it is.

===============
I have seen the light, brother! You guys are right about this. According to
the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary definition of religion;

# "4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and
faith"

And furthermore, the definition of faith:
# "3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction"

It's obvious that veganism falls under that definition (ie: a cause held
onto with adore and believed with strong conviction). So do a lot of other
things that I wouldn't normally consider to be "religions".


'Religion' is generally understood to mean something else, as you know.

For the (secular) _ethical_ vegan, what is "held to" is humanity itself..

'hu·man·i·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hy-mn-t)
n. pl. hu·man·i·ties
1. Humans considered as a group; the human race.
2. The condition or quality of being human.
3. The quality of being humane; benevolence.*
4. A humane characteristic, attribute, or act.*
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=humanity

'hu·mane ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hy-mn)
adj.
1. Characterized by kindness, mercy, or compassion: ... **
2. Marked by an emphasis on humanistic values and concerns: ..
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=humane

They are compassionate because-- that's how we are.

-Lack of empathy- is a trait of severe personality disorder..

'Psychopathy is a concept subject to much debate, but is usually
defined as a constellation of affective, interpersonal, and behavioral
characteristics including egocentricity; impulsivity; irresponsibility;
shallow emotions; lack of empathy, guilt, or remorse; pathological
lying; manipulativeness; and the persistent violation of social norms
and expectations (Cleckley 1976; Hare 1993). The crimes of
psychopaths are usually stone-cold, remorseless killings for no
apparent reason. They cold-bloodedly take what they want and do
as they please without the slightest sense of guilt or regret. In many
ways, they are natural-born intraspecies predators who satisfy their
lust for power and control by charm, manipulation, intimidation, and
violence.
....'
http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/428/428lect16.htm

But anyway, what I wanna know is, can I attain spiritual salvation if I go
vegan, brother? Can I bow down before the Lettuce Lord, and nibble my way to
Nirvana? Can spiritual awakening/enlightenment be achieved through (this)
diet alone? If so, then I would consider veganism to be a religion. But if
there's no "spiritual salvation" in it (and I certainly don't think there
is), then to me veganism is not a religion. But that's just my opinion FWIW,


It can be a fundamental aspect of religion, for sure, even a requirement;

'9. And some of the people said, This man careth for all creatures,
are they his brothers and sisters that he should love them ? And he
said unto them, Verily these are your fellow creatures of the great
Household of God, yea, they are your brethren and sisters, having
the same breath of life in the Eternal.
10. And whosoever careth for one of the least of these, and giveth
it to eat and drink in its need, the same doeth it unto me, and whoso
willingly suffereth one of these to be in want, and defendeth it not
when evilly entreated, suffereth the evil as done unto me; for as ye
have done in this life, so shall it be done unto you in the life to come.'
http://www.essene.com/NazareneGospel...12_4.html#gn34

"For of the fruits of the trees and the seeds of the herbs alone do I
partake, and these are changed by the Spirit into my flesh and my
blood. Of these alone and their like shall ye eat who believe in me,
and are my disciples, for of these, in the Spirit come life and health
and healing unto man. "
http://www.essene.com/NazareneGospel/Holy_12_4.html





  #26 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-12-2004, 02:27 PM
Scented Nectar
 
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"Jay Santos" wrote in message
k.net...
Scented Nectar wrote:

If veganism is not secular why did you select a passage that stated


in

the first line "Veganism as a secular movement .."?

Don't turn to an ellipse when the rest of the sentence is operative:


*IS

A MODERN IDEA*. It was not originally secular, and even though it's
undergone a secularization, it remains at its core fundamentally


religious.

If it's a modern idea, why don't you just go with
the flow and live in current times?


Modern does not equal good.


You mean it's not good when it doesn't agree
with your opinions. Face it, to some if not
most vegans, it isn't a religion. You want it
to be one so that you can pick on it for being
one. That's why you refuse to believe that
it's not necessarily anything to do with
religion at all.

Modern indicates that there is a current definition
that is secular.

--
SN
http://www.scentednectar.com/veg/
A huge directory listing over 700 veg recipe sites.
Has a fun 'Jump to a Random Link' button.


  #27 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 29-12-2004, 05:05 PM
Jay Santos
 
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Scented Nectar wrote:
"Jay Santos" wrote in message
k.net...

Scented Nectar wrote:


If veganism is not secular why did you select a passage that stated

in


the first line "Veganism as a secular movement .."?

Don't turn to an ellipse when the rest of the sentence is operative:

*IS


A MODERN IDEA*. It was not originally secular, and even though it's
undergone a secularization, it remains at its core fundamentally

religious.

If it's a modern idea, why don't you just go with
the flow and live in current times?


Modern does not equal good.



You mean it's not good when it doesn't agree
with your opinions.


No, asshole. I mean, modern does not equal good.
Islamic radicalism/terrorism is "modern", for example.
Progress is not inevitable merely with the passage of
time.

Face it, to some if not
most vegans, it isn't a religion.


Yes, it IS a religion, whether you call it one or not.
It has ALL the relevant traits of religion, but
chiefly blind and unquestioning belief in a rule that
is supposedly "spiritually" based.

You want it to be one so


No, it just IS one.

that you can pick on it for being
one. That's why you refuse to believe that
it's not necessarily anything to do with
religion at all.


It IS a religion.
  #28 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 31-12-2004, 10:35 AM
Mr. Gorilla
 
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"Mr. Gorilla" wrote in message:
It's obvious that veganism falls under that definition (ie: a cause held
onto with adore and believed with strong conviction). So do a lot of

other
things that I wouldn't normally consider to be "religions".


"pearl" wrote in message:
'Religion' is generally understood to mean something else, as you know.

===========

Yes.... Actually, I was kind of hoping that one of those who claim that
veganism is a religion would respond and tell me that. And then perhaps
exactly how veganism claims to bring about "spiritual salvation", as other
religions do, if the meaning that you're implying is what they also have in
mind. But, none of them took the bait. Oh well...

"pearl" wrote (r.e. vegans):
They are compassionate because-- that's how we are.


And, FWIW, I have a lot of respect for you as a vegan because of that - I
don't know how you do it. I was a (whole foods) vegan for 1 1/2 years about
20 years ago (after several years as a lacto-vegetarian). I felt really
malnourished by the end, like I was developing serious dietary deficiencies.
I couldn't stand it anymore so I went back to including milk in my diet and
that fixed the problem. I've tried veganism several more times over the
years since then, and the same thing always happens. After a few months I
begin to feel like I'm developing nutritional deficiencies, so I go back to
the lacto-vegetarian diet, and I'm OK. I guess I must have "Mahatma Gandhi
Syndrome" or something, since he ran into the same problem. Except he went
much longer and nearly died, and could only return to health by taking
(goat's) milk. Some people seem to do OK on the vegan diet somehow, though,
and I certainly respect them for that. I wish I could.

"pearl" wrote:
It can be a fundamental aspect of religion, for sure, even a requirement;


Oh yes, definitely. In fact it was my interest in Buddhism that originally
got me interested in becoming a vegetarian long ago. (Although vegetarianism
isn't a requirement with Buddhism, it does play a role, as you probably
know). But I have to say to those who think veganism is a religion in
itself, if I had to rate it as a religion I'd say it makes a very poor one.
During my 1 1/2 years as a vegan it provided no sense of, or even hope for
spiritual fulfillment of any kind. A definite thumbs down from me for
veganism as a religion.

-MG




  #29 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 31-12-2004, 03:10 PM
pearl
 
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"Mr. Gorilla" wrote in message . ..
"Mr. Gorilla" wrote in message:
It's obvious that veganism falls under that definition (ie: a cause held
onto with adore and believed with strong conviction). So do a lot of

other
things that I wouldn't normally consider to be "religions".


"pearl" wrote in message:
'Religion' is generally understood to mean something else, as you know.

===========

Yes.... Actually, I was kind of hoping that one of those who claim that
veganism is a religion would respond and tell me that.

And then perhaps
exactly how veganism claims to bring about "spiritual salvation", as other
religions do, if the meaning that you're implying is what they also have in
mind. But, none of them took the bait. Oh well...


And prick their own bubble? (Let them play.. such pretty colours..

"pearl" wrote (r.e. vegans):
They are compassionate because-- that's how we are.


And, FWIW, I have a lot of respect for you as a vegan because of that - I


I keep a happy nanny goat and chickens, as it goes. I rarely eat eggs though.

don't know how you do it. I was a (whole foods) vegan for 1 1/2 years about
20 years ago (after several years as a lacto-vegetarian). I felt really
malnourished by the end, like I was developing serious dietary deficiencies.


I'd have to ask for details of your diet and health status to try to ascertain
why that might be.. For example, were you eating organic foods, seeds..

I couldn't stand it anymore so I went back to including milk in my diet and
that fixed the problem. I've tried veganism several more times over the
years since then, and the same thing always happens. After a few months I
begin to feel like I'm developing nutritional deficiencies, so I go back to
the lacto-vegetarian diet, and I'm OK. I guess I must have "Mahatma Gandhi
Syndrome" or something, since he ran into the same problem. Except he went
much longer and nearly died, and could only return to health by taking
(goat's) milk. Some people seem to do OK on the vegan diet somehow, though,
and I certainly respect them for that. I wish I could.


Getting information in afv and from other good resources is the way to go.
In the meantime, advise of course getting organic milk and free-range eggs.

..


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