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"Chuck" > wrote in message ... > > "usual suspect" > wrote in message > ... >> Chuck wrote: >>> IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part >>> of their diet and for so many years? >> >> Stop top-posting. Asians don't eat soy in the same forms or in the same >> quantities as people in the West are eating now. The Asian diet tends to >> have some form of fermented soy, such as soy sauce or tamari or miso, as >> a flavoring. Unfermented products like plain tofu (Asians also eat it >> fermented) are eaten sparingly. By contrast, Westerners are consuming it >> unfermented and in very large quantities. >> > I have 6 adopted children, all oriental, they all were raised on soy milk, > tofu(fried) miso and various sauces, both there and here. ================= Are you terminally ignorant, or just pretend to be? I guess you cannot read for comprehension, eh? The soy in the traditional asian diet is *not* the soy you get here. Traditional asian diet did not feed soy milk to children They also eat > rice daily and except for seafoods, very little of the meats group. > Orientals eat several different kinds of soy and to say that one in > particular is used would be an error. ================== And the traditional asian diet did not include what we produce as soy products here... We also ship large quantities of > "our" soy to the orient. Are they just feeding it to cows? I don't think > so. When a limited diet is considered I think they are very resourceful ===================== Probably, but you're still ignorant.... > > Chuck. > > >> <...> > > |
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But you did have to respond even though you didn't hardly notice the retort.
Didn't you? "Chuck" > wrote in message ... > Actually I said they could call themselves whatever they wanted, as can I. > However, they frown on intellectual retards making up names for no valid or > real reason. You're wasting your time giving me your worthless > interpretations. > > Chuck. > > "Piezo Guru" > wrote in message > news:1103477573.8360171234f7d7d3291127874e0d4c06@t eranews... > > Asian ******s? > > > > "Chuck" > wrote in message > > ... > >> > >> "usual suspect" > wrote in message > >> ... > >> > Chuck wrote: > >> >> "usual suspect" > wrote in message > >> >> ... > >> >> > >> >>>Chuck wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>>>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large > > part > >> >>>>of their diet and for so many years? > >> >>> > >> >>>Stop top-posting. Asians don't eat soy in the same forms or in the > >> >>>same > >> >>>quantities as people in the West are eating now. The Asian diet tends > > to > >> >>>have some form of fermented soy, such as soy sauce or tamari or miso, > > as > >> >>>a flavoring. Unfermented products like plain tofu (Asians also eat it > >> >>>fermented) are eaten sparingly. By contrast, Westerners are consuming > > it > >> >>>unfermented and in very large quantities. > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> I have 6 adopted children, all oriental, > >> > > >> > I'm curious (and more than a bit doubtful). Why do you call them > >> > "oriental" as opposed to Chinese, Japanese, or the more accepted > > "Asian"? > >> > > >> First they are from different countries including Vietnam, China and > >> Japan > >> so how could I call them all from one country? Second, I call them what > >> they call themselves. Although one calls himself a "Gook." and the > >> others > >> "Slopes" or "slit eyes" but you or I should not. But they are free to > > call > >> themselves whatever they want. Just like they eat what they want. > > Besides > >> they are all adults now and are living their own lives. You are right in > >> one respect, they should be called "Asians" or now, Americans, as they > > are > >> citizens. > >> > >> Chuck > >> > >> > >> > >> >> they all were raised on soy milk, tofu(fried) miso and various sauces, > >> >> both there and here. They also eat rice daily and except for > >> >> seafoods, > >> >> very little of the meats group. > >> > > >> > Yeah, right. Is that because *you* don't allow your adopted "oriental" > >> > children to eat meat or because they consciously choose to avoid it > >> > even > >> > though it's widely available "both there and here" and accepted in > >> > their > >> > culture "both there and here"? > >> > > >> As I said they eat what they prerfer. > >> > >> > >> >> Orientals > >> > > >> > *Asians*, you hillbilly > >> > >> OK, Asians, you asshole > >> > >> . > >> > > >> >> eat several different kinds of soy and to say that one in particular > >> >> is > >> >> used would be an error. > >> > > >> > Note what I actually wrote: TEND to use fermented soy and consume > >> > unfermented soy products SPARINGLY. I never said SPARINGLY > >> > > >> > http://www.mercola.com/2000/jan/9/truth_about_soy.htm > >> > http://www.westonaprice.org/soy/soy_update2001.html > >> > > >> > And note the following, hillbilly: > >> > Typically soy foods are divided into two categories: > >> > non-fermented and fermented soy products. Traditional > >> > nonfermented soy foods include fresh green soybeans, whole dry > >> > soybeans, soy nuts, soy sprouts, whole-fat soy flour, soymilk > >> > and soymilk products, tofu, okara and yuba. Traditional > >> > fermented soy foods include tempeh, miso, soy sauces, natto and > >> > fermented tofu and soymilk products. In Asia, the > >> > traditional fermented soy foods are considered to have more > >> > health promoting benefits when consumed in moderate amounts than > >> > the super-processed soy products that are consumed in the West. > >> > http://www.wellbeingjournal.com/soy.htm > >> > > >> >> We also ship large quantities of "our" soy to the orient. Are they > > just > >> >> feeding it to cows? > >> > > >> > That and they're brewing soy sauce and making other soy derivatives for > >> > export. > >> > > >> >> I don't think so. > >> > > >> > WTF do you know? Do your six children know you call them "orientals"? > >> > > >> >> When a limited diet is considered I think they are very resourceful > >> > > >> > Their diet isn't limited, and they're not eating much soy. > >> > http://www.medjournal.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-970 > >> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/760787.stm > >> > http://english.people.com.cn/200410/...13_160102.html > >> > >> > > > > > > |
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I gather that I'm ignorant but then what are you? Obviously not an Asian,
or Oriental. A renowned chef Maybe. Chuck "rick etter" > wrote in message ink.net... > > "Chuck" > wrote in message > ... >> >> "usual suspect" > wrote in message >> ... >>> Chuck wrote: >>>> IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part >>>> of their diet and for so many years? >>> >>> Stop top-posting. Asians don't eat soy in the same forms or in the same >>> quantities as people in the West are eating now. The Asian diet tends to >>> have some form of fermented soy, such as soy sauce or tamari or miso, as >>> a flavoring. Unfermented products like plain tofu (Asians also eat it >>> fermented) are eaten sparingly. By contrast, Westerners are consuming it >>> unfermented and in very large quantities. >>> >> I have 6 adopted children, all oriental, they all were raised on soy >> milk, tofu(fried) miso and various sauces, both there and here. > ================= > Are you terminally ignorant, or just pretend to be? I guess you cannot > read for comprehension, eh? The soy in the traditional asian diet is > *not* the soy you get here. Traditional asian diet did not feed soy milk > to children > > > They also eat >> rice daily and except for seafoods, very little of the meats group. >> Orientals eat several different kinds of soy and to say that one in >> particular is used would be an error. > ================== > And the traditional asian diet did not include what we produce as soy > products here... > > We also ship large quantities of >> "our" soy to the orient. Are they just feeding it to cows? I don't >> think so. When a limited diet is considered I think they are very >> resourceful > ===================== > Probably, but you're still ignorant.... > >> >> Chuck. >> >> >>> <...> >> >> > > |
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I gather that I'm ignorant but then what are you? Obviously not an Asian,
or Oriental. A renowned chef Maybe. Chuck "rick etter" > wrote in message ink.net... > > "Chuck" > wrote in message > ... >> >> "usual suspect" > wrote in message >> ... >>> Chuck wrote: >>>> IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part >>>> of their diet and for so many years? >>> >>> Stop top-posting. Asians don't eat soy in the same forms or in the same >>> quantities as people in the West are eating now. The Asian diet tends to >>> have some form of fermented soy, such as soy sauce or tamari or miso, as >>> a flavoring. Unfermented products like plain tofu (Asians also eat it >>> fermented) are eaten sparingly. By contrast, Westerners are consuming it >>> unfermented and in very large quantities. >>> >> I have 6 adopted children, all oriental, they all were raised on soy >> milk, tofu(fried) miso and various sauces, both there and here. > ================= > Are you terminally ignorant, or just pretend to be? I guess you cannot > read for comprehension, eh? The soy in the traditional asian diet is > *not* the soy you get here. Traditional asian diet did not feed soy milk > to children > > > They also eat >> rice daily and except for seafoods, very little of the meats group. >> Orientals eat several different kinds of soy and to say that one in >> particular is used would be an error. > ================== > And the traditional asian diet did not include what we produce as soy > products here... > > We also ship large quantities of >> "our" soy to the orient. Are they just feeding it to cows? I don't >> think so. When a limited diet is considered I think they are very >> resourceful > ===================== > Probably, but you're still ignorant.... > >> >> Chuck. >> >> >>> <...> >> >> > > |
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"Chuck" > wrote in message ... >I gather that I'm ignorant but then what are you? Obviously not an Asian, >or Oriental. A renowned chef Maybe. ====================== Note of continued dodge. Guess you've realized how stupid your statements have been and have now been reduced to blathering.... > > Chuck > > > "rick etter" > wrote in message > ink.net... >> >> "Chuck" > wrote in message >> ... >>> >>> "usual suspect" > wrote in message >>> ... >>>> Chuck wrote: >>>>> IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large >>>>> part of their diet and for so many years? >>>> >>>> Stop top-posting. Asians don't eat soy in the same forms or in the same >>>> quantities as people in the West are eating now. The Asian diet tends >>>> to have some form of fermented soy, such as soy sauce or tamari or >>>> miso, as a flavoring. Unfermented products like plain tofu (Asians also >>>> eat it fermented) are eaten sparingly. By contrast, Westerners are >>>> consuming it unfermented and in very large quantities. >>>> >>> I have 6 adopted children, all oriental, they all were raised on soy >>> milk, tofu(fried) miso and various sauces, both there and here. >> ================= >> Are you terminally ignorant, or just pretend to be? I guess you cannot >> read for comprehension, eh? The soy in the traditional asian diet is >> *not* the soy you get here. Traditional asian diet did not feed soy milk >> to children >> >> >> They also eat >>> rice daily and except for seafoods, very little of the meats group. >>> Orientals eat several different kinds of soy and to say that one in >>> particular is used would be an error. >> ================== >> And the traditional asian diet did not include what we produce as soy >> products here... >> >> We also ship large quantities of >>> "our" soy to the orient. Are they just feeding it to cows? I don't >>> think so. When a limited diet is considered I think they are very >>> resourceful >> ===================== >> Probably, but you're still ignorant.... >> >>> >>> Chuck. >>> >>> >>>> <...> >>> >>> >> >> > > |
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"Chuck" > wrote in message ... >I gather that I'm ignorant but then what are you? Obviously not an Asian, >or Oriental. A renowned chef Maybe. ====================== Note of continued dodge. Guess you've realized how stupid your statements have been and have now been reduced to blathering.... > > Chuck > > > "rick etter" > wrote in message > ink.net... >> >> "Chuck" > wrote in message >> ... >>> >>> "usual suspect" > wrote in message >>> ... >>>> Chuck wrote: >>>>> IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large >>>>> part of their diet and for so many years? >>>> >>>> Stop top-posting. Asians don't eat soy in the same forms or in the same >>>> quantities as people in the West are eating now. The Asian diet tends >>>> to have some form of fermented soy, such as soy sauce or tamari or >>>> miso, as a flavoring. Unfermented products like plain tofu (Asians also >>>> eat it fermented) are eaten sparingly. By contrast, Westerners are >>>> consuming it unfermented and in very large quantities. >>>> >>> I have 6 adopted children, all oriental, they all were raised on soy >>> milk, tofu(fried) miso and various sauces, both there and here. >> ================= >> Are you terminally ignorant, or just pretend to be? I guess you cannot >> read for comprehension, eh? The soy in the traditional asian diet is >> *not* the soy you get here. Traditional asian diet did not feed soy milk >> to children >> >> >> They also eat >>> rice daily and except for seafoods, very little of the meats group. >>> Orientals eat several different kinds of soy and to say that one in >>> particular is used would be an error. >> ================== >> And the traditional asian diet did not include what we produce as soy >> products here... >> >> We also ship large quantities of >>> "our" soy to the orient. Are they just feeding it to cows? I don't >>> think so. When a limited diet is considered I think they are very >>> resourceful >> ===================== >> Probably, but you're still ignorant.... >> >>> >>> Chuck. >>> >>> >>>> <...> >>> >>> >> >> > > |
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"rick etter" > wrote in message nk.net... > > "Chuck" > wrote in message > ... >>I gather that I'm ignorant but then what are you? Obviously not an Asian, >>or Oriental. A renowned chef Maybe. > ====================== > Note of continued dodge. Guess you've realized how stupid your > statements have been and have now been reduced to blathering.... > I'm learning from you! > > >> >> Chuck >> >> >> "rick etter" > wrote in message >> ink.net... >>> >>> "Chuck" > wrote in message >>> ... >>>> >>>> "usual suspect" > wrote in message >>>> ... >>>>> Chuck wrote: >>>>>> IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large >>>>>> part of their diet and for so many years? >>>>> >>>>> Stop top-posting. Asians don't eat soy in the same forms or in the >>>>> same quantities as people in the West are eating now. The Asian diet >>>>> tends to have some form of fermented soy, such as soy sauce or tamari >>>>> or miso, as a flavoring. Unfermented products like plain tofu (Asians >>>>> also eat it fermented) are eaten sparingly. By contrast, Westerners >>>>> are consuming it unfermented and in very large quantities. >>>>> >>>> I have 6 adopted children, all oriental, they all were raised on soy >>>> milk, tofu(fried) miso and various sauces, both there and here. >>> ================= >>> Are you terminally ignorant, or just pretend to be? I guess you cannot >>> read for comprehension, eh? The soy in the traditional asian diet is >>> *not* the soy you get here. Traditional asian diet did not feed soy >>> milk to children >>> >>> >>> They also eat >>>> rice daily and except for seafoods, very little of the meats group. >>>> Orientals eat several different kinds of soy and to say that one in >>>> particular is used would be an error. >>> ================== >>> And the traditional asian diet did not include what we produce as soy >>> products here... >>> >>> We also ship large quantities of >>>> "our" soy to the orient. Are they just feeding it to cows? I don't >>>> think so. When a limited diet is considered I think they are very >>>> resourceful >>> ===================== >>> Probably, but you're still ignorant.... >>> >>>> >>>> Chuck. >>>> >>>> >>>>> <...> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > |
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"rick etter" > wrote in message nk.net... > > "Chuck" > wrote in message > ... >>I gather that I'm ignorant but then what are you? Obviously not an Asian, >>or Oriental. A renowned chef Maybe. > ====================== > Note of continued dodge. Guess you've realized how stupid your > statements have been and have now been reduced to blathering.... > I'm learning from you! > > >> >> Chuck >> >> >> "rick etter" > wrote in message >> ink.net... >>> >>> "Chuck" > wrote in message >>> ... >>>> >>>> "usual suspect" > wrote in message >>>> ... >>>>> Chuck wrote: >>>>>> IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large >>>>>> part of their diet and for so many years? >>>>> >>>>> Stop top-posting. Asians don't eat soy in the same forms or in the >>>>> same quantities as people in the West are eating now. The Asian diet >>>>> tends to have some form of fermented soy, such as soy sauce or tamari >>>>> or miso, as a flavoring. Unfermented products like plain tofu (Asians >>>>> also eat it fermented) are eaten sparingly. By contrast, Westerners >>>>> are consuming it unfermented and in very large quantities. >>>>> >>>> I have 6 adopted children, all oriental, they all were raised on soy >>>> milk, tofu(fried) miso and various sauces, both there and here. >>> ================= >>> Are you terminally ignorant, or just pretend to be? I guess you cannot >>> read for comprehension, eh? The soy in the traditional asian diet is >>> *not* the soy you get here. Traditional asian diet did not feed soy >>> milk to children >>> >>> >>> They also eat >>>> rice daily and except for seafoods, very little of the meats group. >>>> Orientals eat several different kinds of soy and to say that one in >>>> particular is used would be an error. >>> ================== >>> And the traditional asian diet did not include what we produce as soy >>> products here... >>> >>> We also ship large quantities of >>>> "our" soy to the orient. Are they just feeding it to cows? I don't >>>> think so. When a limited diet is considered I think they are very >>>> resourceful >>> ===================== >>> Probably, but you're still ignorant.... >>> >>>> >>>> Chuck. >>>> >>>> >>>>> <...> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > |
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In article >, "Chuck" > wrote:
>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part of >their diet and for so many years? Lack of options ? How many years ? Maybe they tink it tastes good ? Bruce ------------------------------ Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing. -Redd Foxx Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups (if there were any) |
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"Chuck" > wrote in message ... > > "rick etter" > wrote in message > nk.net... >> >> "Chuck" > wrote in message >> ... >>>I gather that I'm ignorant but then what are you? Obviously not an >>>Asian, or Oriental. A renowned chef Maybe. >> ====================== >> Note of continued dodge. Guess you've realized how stupid your >> statements have been and have now been reduced to blathering.... >> > I'm learning from you! ================= Good. > > >> >> >>> >>> Chuck >>> >>> >>> "rick etter" > wrote in message >>> ink.net... >>>> >>>> "Chuck" > wrote in message >>>> ... >>>>> >>>>> "usual suspect" > wrote in message >>>>> ... >>>>>> Chuck wrote: >>>>>>> IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large >>>>>>> part of their diet and for so many years? >>>>>> >>>>>> Stop top-posting. Asians don't eat soy in the same forms or in the >>>>>> same quantities as people in the West are eating now. The Asian diet >>>>>> tends to have some form of fermented soy, such as soy sauce or tamari >>>>>> or miso, as a flavoring. Unfermented products like plain tofu (Asians >>>>>> also eat it fermented) are eaten sparingly. By contrast, Westerners >>>>>> are consuming it unfermented and in very large quantities. >>>>>> >>>>> I have 6 adopted children, all oriental, they all were raised on soy >>>>> milk, tofu(fried) miso and various sauces, both there and here. >>>> ================= >>>> Are you terminally ignorant, or just pretend to be? I guess you >>>> cannot read for comprehension, eh? The soy in the traditional asian >>>> diet is *not* the soy you get here. Traditional asian diet did not >>>> feed soy milk to children >>>> >>>> >>>> They also eat >>>>> rice daily and except for seafoods, very little of the meats group. >>>>> Orientals eat several different kinds of soy and to say that one in >>>>> particular is used would be an error. >>>> ================== >>>> And the traditional asian diet did not include what we produce as soy >>>> products here... >>>> >>>> We also ship large quantities of >>>>> "our" soy to the orient. Are they just feeding it to cows? I don't >>>>> think so. When a limited diet is considered I think they are very >>>>> resourceful >>>> ===================== >>>> Probably, but you're still ignorant.... >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Chuck. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> <...> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > |
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Bruce Sinclair > writes
>In article >, "Chuck" > wrote: >>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part of >>their diet and for so many years? > >Lack of options ? >How many years ? >Maybe they tink it tastes good ? I posted a long infopack on soy. Did anyone read it? It has a lot of definitive information. -- Oz |
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"Oz" > wrote in message ... > Bruce Sinclair > writes > >In article >, "Chuck" > > wrote: > >>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part of > >>their diet and for so many years? > > > >Lack of options ? > >How many years ? > >Maybe they tink it tastes good ? > > I posted a long infopack on soy. > > Did anyone read it? Yes I did, And I have grown children who love and readily consume Soy products. Myself, In the seventies I used to work as the farm manager of a 45,000 acre irrigated soybean farm owned by Bunge Grain, largest exporter of Soybeans in the world.. Their major market was China, and primarily bound for human consumption. The harvested beans were shipped by barge to Destrehan, Louisana where they were loaded on ships embarking to China. They had to be cleaner than domestic beans because they were destined for human consumption, That's why I have trouble understanding the literature quoting "experts" readily cross posting to this site saying Asians don't eat soy or soy products. Also 95% of soy products sold in Asian groceries are made in Asian countries, not here. These "groceries" have trouble maintaing their stocks. Chuck > > It has a lot of definitive information. > > -- > Oz |
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In article >, "Chuck R." > wrote:
> >"Oz" > wrote in message ... >> Bruce Sinclair > writes >> >In article >, "Chuck" >> > wrote: >> >>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part >> >>of their diet and for so many years? >> > >> >Lack of options ? >> >How many years ? >> >Maybe they tink it tastes good ? >> >> I posted a long infopack on soy. Did anyone read it? G'day Oz, Didn't see your contribution, but this article motivated me to do a google on 'soybean toxicity' (being a fair-minded, unbiased observer of the thread ;-) and I stumbled across this site which has a long essay on the subject (about 33 pages of it, according to "File/Print Preview"). Don't know how reliable it is, but I did detect a smidgen of confused cause and effect. <>http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/soy.htm> They quote one study of Japanese/American men which "found that the men who ate the most tofu during mid-life had up to 2.4 times the risk of later developing Alzheimer's disease. Lead researcher Dr. Lon R. White said that men who ate tofu at least twice weekly showed brain aging about five years faster than those who seldom ate tofu." This is clearly arse about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat that crap! >Yes I did, And I have grown children who love and readily consume Soy >products. Myself, In the seventies I used to work as the farm manager of a >45,000 acre irrigated soybean farm owned by Bunge Grain, largest exporter of >Soybeans in the world.. Their major market was China, and primarily bound >for human consumption. The harvested beans were shipped by barge to >Destrehan, Louisana where they were loaded on ships embarking to China. >They had to be cleaner than domestic beans because they were destined for >human consumption, That's why I have trouble understanding the literature >quoting "experts" readily cross posting to this site saying Asians don't eat >soy or soy products. Also 95% of soy products sold in Asian groceries are >made in Asian countries, not here. These "groceries" have trouble maintaing >their stocks. >> >> It has a lot of definitive information. Cheers, Phred. -- LID |
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In article >, "Chuck R." > wrote:
> >"Oz" > wrote in message ... >> Bruce Sinclair > writes >> >In article >, "Chuck" >> > wrote: >> >>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part >> >>of their diet and for so many years? >> > >> >Lack of options ? >> >How many years ? >> >Maybe they tink it tastes good ? >> >> I posted a long infopack on soy. Did anyone read it? G'day Oz, Didn't see your contribution, but this article motivated me to do a google on 'soybean toxicity' (being a fair-minded, unbiased observer of the thread ;-) and I stumbled across this site which has a long essay on the subject (about 33 pages of it, according to "File/Print Preview"). Don't know how reliable it is, but I did detect a smidgen of confused cause and effect. <>http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/soy.htm> They quote one study of Japanese/American men which "found that the men who ate the most tofu during mid-life had up to 2.4 times the risk of later developing Alzheimer's disease. Lead researcher Dr. Lon R. White said that men who ate tofu at least twice weekly showed brain aging about five years faster than those who seldom ate tofu." This is clearly arse about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat that crap! >Yes I did, And I have grown children who love and readily consume Soy >products. Myself, In the seventies I used to work as the farm manager of a >45,000 acre irrigated soybean farm owned by Bunge Grain, largest exporter of >Soybeans in the world.. Their major market was China, and primarily bound >for human consumption. The harvested beans were shipped by barge to >Destrehan, Louisana where they were loaded on ships embarking to China. >They had to be cleaner than domestic beans because they were destined for >human consumption, That's why I have trouble understanding the literature >quoting "experts" readily cross posting to this site saying Asians don't eat >soy or soy products. Also 95% of soy products sold in Asian groceries are >made in Asian countries, not here. These "groceries" have trouble maintaing >their stocks. >> >> It has a lot of definitive information. Cheers, Phred. -- LID |
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Phred wrote:
> Didn't see your contribution, but this article motivated me to do a > google on 'soybean toxicity' (being a fair-minded, unbiased observer > of the thread ;-) and I stumbled across this site which has a long > essay on the subject (about 33 pages of it, according to "File/Print > Preview"). Don't know how reliable it is, but I did detect a smidgen > of confused cause and effect. > > <>http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/soy.htm> > > They quote one study of Japanese/American men which "found that the > men who ate the most tofu during mid-life had up to 2.4 times the risk > of later developing Alzheimer's disease. Lead researcher Dr. Lon R. > White said that men who ate tofu at least twice weekly showed brain > aging about five years faster than those who seldom ate tofu." > > This is clearly arse about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat that > crap! Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of dementia and Azheimer's disease. http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html -- Juhana |
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Phred wrote:
> Didn't see your contribution, but this article motivated me to do a > google on 'soybean toxicity' (being a fair-minded, unbiased observer > of the thread ;-) and I stumbled across this site which has a long > essay on the subject (about 33 pages of it, according to "File/Print > Preview"). Don't know how reliable it is, but I did detect a smidgen > of confused cause and effect. > > <>http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/soy.htm> > > They quote one study of Japanese/American men which "found that the > men who ate the most tofu during mid-life had up to 2.4 times the risk > of later developing Alzheimer's disease. Lead researcher Dr. Lon R. > White said that men who ate tofu at least twice weekly showed brain > aging about five years faster than those who seldom ate tofu." > > This is clearly arse about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat that > crap! Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of dementia and Azheimer's disease. http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html -- Juhana |
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"Juhana Harju" > wrote in message ... > Phred wrote: snippage... >> >> This is clearly arse about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat that >> crap! > > Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of dementia > and > Azheimer's disease. > ================ Now, relate that to the crap that is produced and sold in the US. It is not the same product, dolt. Guess you have a hard time with conmprehension too, huh? They eat more fruits and veggies than soy. They eat fish. And lastly, they eat less overall. Why do you think that soy is responsible for all the 'good?' Agenda driving are you? > http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html > > > -- > Juhana > |
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"Juhana Harju" > wrote in message ... > Phred wrote: snippage... >> >> This is clearly arse about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat that >> crap! > > Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of dementia > and > Azheimer's disease. > ================ Now, relate that to the crap that is produced and sold in the US. It is not the same product, dolt. Guess you have a hard time with conmprehension too, huh? They eat more fruits and veggies than soy. They eat fish. And lastly, they eat less overall. Why do you think that soy is responsible for all the 'good?' Agenda driving are you? > http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html > > > -- > Juhana > |
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Chuck R. > writes
> >"Oz" > wrote in message >> >> I posted a long infopack on soy. >> >> Did anyone read it? > >Yes I did, And I have grown children who love and readily consume Soy >products. Myself, In the seventies I used to work as the farm manager of a >45,000 acre irrigated soybean farm owned by Bunge Grain, largest exporter of >Soybeans in the world.. Their major market was China, and primarily bound >for human consumption. The harvested beans were shipped by barge to >Destrehan, Louisana where they were loaded on ships embarking to China. >They had to be cleaner than domestic beans because they were destined for >human consumption, That's why I have trouble understanding the literature >quoting "experts" readily cross posting to this site saying Asians don't eat >soy or soy products. Also 95% of soy products sold in Asian groceries are >made in Asian countries, not here. These "groceries" have trouble maintaing >their stocks. What's that got to do with what I posted? -- Oz |
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rick etter wrote:
> "Juhana Harju" > wrote in message > ... >> Phred wrote: > > snippage... > >>> >>> This is clearly arse about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat that >>> crap! >> >> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of >> dementia and >> Azheimer's disease. > Now, relate that to the crap that is produced and sold in the US. It > is not the same product, dolt. Guess you have a hard time with > conmprehension too, huh? No, I don't think so. I agree that it is different if you eat texturized soy protein, which might not be so healthy. > They eat more fruits and veggies than soy. They eat fish. And > lastly, they eat less overall. Why do you think that soy is > responsible for all the 'good?' Agenda driving are you? I don't think that soy is "responsible for all good". But eaten as tofu and with diet loaded with vegetables and fish it is proven that it is not dangerous either. The isoflavonols in soy are good in preventing prostate cancer. That is a clear advantage. -- Juhana |
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rick etter wrote:
> "Juhana Harju" > wrote in message > ... >> Phred wrote: > > snippage... > >>> >>> This is clearly arse about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat that >>> crap! >> >> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of >> dementia and >> Azheimer's disease. > Now, relate that to the crap that is produced and sold in the US. It > is not the same product, dolt. Guess you have a hard time with > conmprehension too, huh? No, I don't think so. I agree that it is different if you eat texturized soy protein, which might not be so healthy. > They eat more fruits and veggies than soy. They eat fish. And > lastly, they eat less overall. Why do you think that soy is > responsible for all the 'good?' Agenda driving are you? I don't think that soy is "responsible for all good". But eaten as tofu and with diet loaded with vegetables and fish it is proven that it is not dangerous either. The isoflavonols in soy are good in preventing prostate cancer. That is a clear advantage. -- Juhana |
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Phred > writes
>Didn't see your contribution, Chuck > writes >IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part of >their diet and for so many years? Actually they didn't. In china its relatively recent, it was used for cattle food due to the toxins and phytoestrogens it contains which are toxic to humans. This is why soy is processed (severely), traditionally by lengthy fermentation (soy sauce) or grinding and washing (and less fermenting - 'bean curds'). Manioc, which only contains easily dealt with cyanide as a toxin,is probably safer. see====================== http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...e/browse_threa d/thread/7ff129068297d977/f9b7a90987a314db?q=%22Soya+information+(worth+ a+read)%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22Soya+informati on+(worth+a+read)%22%2 6qt_s%3DSearch+Groups%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search &&d#f9b7a90987a314db uk.business.agriculture > "Soya information (worth a read)" Oz May 29 2002, 8:39 am show options Copied from sci.ag (a torsten post) ========================== >>Where is the proof that soya is safe? Fit for Human Consumption? The Chinese did not eat the soybean as they did other pulses (legumes) such as the lentil, because the soybean contains large quantities of a number of harmful a substances. First among them are potent enzyme inhibitors which block the action of trypsin and other enzymes needed for protein digestion. These "antinutrients" are not completely deactivated during ordinary cooking and can produce serious gastric distress, reduced protein digestion and chronic deficiencies in amino acid uptake. In test animals, diets high in trypsin inhibitors cause enlargement and pathological conditions of the pancreas, including cancer. The soybean also contains hemagglutinin, a clot promoting substance that causes red blood cells to clump together. Trypsin inhibitors and hemagglutinin have been rightly labeled growth depressant substances. Fortunately they are deactivated during the process of fermentation. However, in precipitated products, enzyme inhibitors concentrate in the soaking liquid rather than in the curd. Thus in tofu and bean curd, these enzyme inhibitors are reduced in quantity, but not completely eliminated. Soybeans are also high in phytic acid or phytates. This is an organic acid, present in the bran or hulls of all seeds, which blocks the uptake of essential minerals-calcium, magnesium, iron and especially zinc-in the intestinal tract. Although not a household word, phytates have been extensively studied. Scientists are in general agreement that grain and legume based diets high in phytates contribute to widespread mineral deficiencies in third world countries. Analysis shows that calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc are present in the plant foods eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of soy and rice based diets prevents their absorption. The soybean has a higher phytate content than any other grain or legume that has been studied. Furthermore, it seems to be highly resistant to many phytate reducing techniques such as long, slow cooking. Only a long period of fermentation will significantly reduce the phytate content of soybeans. Thus fermented products such as tempeh and miso provide nourishment that is easily assimilated, but the nutritional value of tofu and bean curd, both high in phytates, is questionable. When precipitated soy products are consumed with meat, the mineral blocking effects of the phytates are reduced. The Japanese traditionally eat tofu as part of a mineral-rich fish broth. Vegetarians who consume tofu and bean curd as a substitute for meat and dairy products risk severe mineral deficiencies. The results of calcium, magnesium and iron deficiency are well known, those of zinc are less so. Zinc is called the intelligence mineral because it is needed for optimal development and functioning of the brain and nervous system. It plays a role in protein synthesis and collagen formation, it Is involved in the blood sugar control mechanism and thus protects against diabetes; it is needed for a healthy reproductive system. Zinc is a key component in numerous vital enzymes and plays a role in the immune system. Phytates found in soy products interfere with zinc absorption more completely than with other minerals. Literature extolling soy products tends to minimize the role of zinc in human physiology, and to gloss over the deleterious effect of diets high in phytic acid. Milk drinking is given as the reason second generation Japanese in America grow taller than their native ancestors. Some investigators postulate that the reduced phytate content of the American diet-whatever maybe its other deficiencies-is the true explanation, pointing out that Asian and Oriental children who do not get enough meat and fish products to counteract the effects of a high phytate diet, frequently suffer rickets, stunting and other growth problems. Marketing the Soybean The truth is, however, that most Americans are unlikely to adopt traditional soy products as their principle food. Tofu, bean curd and tempeh have disagreeable texture and are too bland for the Western palate; pungent and tasty miso and natto lose out in taste; only soy sauce enjoys widespread popularity as a condiment. The soy industry has therefore looked for other ways to market the superabundance of soybeans now grown in the United States. Large scale cultivation of the soybean in the United States began only after the Second World War, and quickly rose to 140 billion pounds per year. Most of the crop is made into animal feed, soy oil for hydrogenated fats margarine and shortening. During the past 20 years, the industry has concentrated on finding markets for the byproducts of soy oil manufacture, including soy "lecithin", made from the oil sludge, and soy protein products, made from defatted soy flakes, a challenge that has involved overcoming consumer resistance to soy products, generally considered tasteless "poverty foods. The quickest way to gain product acceptability in the less affluent society," said a soy industry spokesman, " ... is to have the product consumed on its own merit in a more affluent society."" Hence the proliferation of soy products resembling traditional American foods-soy milk for cows milk, soy baby formula, soy yogurt, soy ice cream, soy cheese, soy flour for baking and textured soy protein as meat substitutes, usually promoted as high protein, low-fat, no cholesterol "health foods" to the upscale consumer increasingly concerned about his health. The growth of vegetarianism among the more affluent classes has greatly accelerated the acceptability and use of these artificial products. Unfortunately they pose numerous dangers. Processing Denatures and Dangers Remain The production of soy milk is relatively simple. In order to remove as much of the trypsin inhibitor content as possible, the beans are first soaked in an alkaline solution. The pureed solution is then heated to about 115 degrees Centigrade in a pressure cooker. This method destroys most (but not all) of the anti-nutrients but has the unhappy side effect of so denaturing the proteins that they become very difficult to digest and much reduced in effectiveness. The phytate content remains in soy milk to block the uptake of essential minerals. In addition, the alkaline soaking solution produces a carcinogen, lysinealine, and reduces the cystine content, which is already low in the soybean. Lacking cystine, the entire protein complex of the soybean becomes useless unless the diet is fortified with cystine-rich meat, eggs, or dairy products. Most soy products that imitate traditional American food items, including baby formulas and some brands of soy milk, are made with soy protein isolate, that is the soy protein isolated from the carbohydrate and fatty acid components that naturally occur in the bean. Soy beans are first ground and subjected to high-temperature and solvent extraction processes to remove the oils. The resultant defatted meal is then mixed with an alkaline solution and sugars in a separation process to remove fiber. Then it is precipitated and separated using an acid wash. Finally the resultant curds are neutralized in an alkaline solution and spray dried at high temperatures to produce high protein powder. This is a highly refined product in which both vitamin and protein quality are compromised-but some trypsin inhibitors remain, even after such extreme refining. Trypsin inhibitor content of soy protein isolate can vary as much as 5-fold. In rats, even low level trypsin inhibitor soy protein isolate feeding results in reduced weight gain compared to controls. Soy product producers are not required to state trypsin inhibitor content on labels, nor even to meet minimum standards, and the public, trained to avoid dietary cholesterol, a substance vital for normal growth and metabolism, has never heard of the potent anti-nutrients found in cholesterol-free soy products. Soy Formula Is Not the Answer Soy protein isolate is the main ingredient of soy-based infant formulas. Along with trypsin inhibitors, these formulas have a high phytate content. Use of soy formula has caused zinc deficiency in infants. Aluminum content of soy formula is 10 times greater than milk based formula, and 100 times greater than unprocessed milk. Aluminum has a toxic effect on the kidneys of infants, and has been implicated as cause in Alzheimer's in adults. Soy milk formulas are often given to babies with milk allergy; but allergies to soy are almost as common as those to milk. Soy formulas lack cholesterol which is absolutely essential for the development of the brain and nervous system; they also lack lactose and galactose, which play an equally important role in the development of the nervous system. I would strongly discourage the use of soy formulas. Nitrosamines, which are potent carcinogens, are often found in soy protein foods, and are greatly increased during the high temperature drying process. Not surprisingly, animal feeding studies show a lower weight gain for rats on soy formula than those on whole milk, high-lactose formula; similar results have been observed in children on macrobiotic diets which include the use of soy milk and large amounts of whole grains. Children brought up on high-phytate diets tend to be thin and scrawny. Fabricated Soy Foods A final indignity to the original soy bean is high-temperature, high-pressure extrusion processing of soy protein isolate to product textured vegetable protein (TVP). Numerous artificial flavorings, particularly MSG, are added to TVP products to mask their strong "beany" taste, and impart the flavor of meat. Soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein are used extensively in school lunch programs, commercial baked goods, diet beverages and fast food products. They are heavily promoted in third world countries and form the basis of many food give-away programs. These soy products greatly inhibit zinc and iron absorption; in test animals they cause enlarged organs, particularly the pancreas and thyroid gland, and increased deposition of fatty acids in the liver. Human feeding tests to determine the cholesterol lowering properties of soy protein isolate have not shown them to be effective. Nevertheless, they are often promoted as having beneficial effects on cholesterol levels. Cancer Preventing or Cancer Causing? The food industry also touts soy products for their cancer preventing properties. Isoflavone aglycones are anticarcinogenic substances found in traditionally fermented soybean products. However, in non-fermented soy products such as tofu and soy milk, these isoflavones are present in an altered form as beta-glycoside conjugates, which have no anti-carcinogenic effect. Some researchers believe the rapid increase in liver and pancreatic cancer in Africa is due to the introduction of soy products there. The fatty acid profile of the soybean includes large amounts of beneficial omega-3 fatty acids compared to other pulses legumes); but these omega-3 fatty acids are particularly susceptible to rancidity when subjected to high pressures and temperatures. This is exactly what is required to remove oil from the bean, as soybean oil is particularly difficult to extract. hexane or other solvents are always used to extract oil from soybeans, and traces remain in the commercial product. While fermented soy products contain protein, vitamins, anti-carcinogenic substances and important fatty acids, they can under no circumstances be called nutritionally complete. Like all pulses, the soybean lacks vital sulfur-containing amino acids cystine and methionine. These are usually supplied by rice and other grains in areas where the soybean is traditionally consumed. Soy should never be considered as a substitute for animal products like meat or milk. Claims that fermented soy products like tempeh can be relied on as a source of vitamin B12, necessary for healthy blood and nervous system, have not been supported by scientific research.,' Finally, soybeans do not supply all-important fat soluble vitamins D and preformed A (retinol) which act as catalysts for the proper absorption and utilization of all minerals and water soluble vitamins in the diet. These "fat soluble activators" are found only in certain animal foods such as organ meats, butter, eggs, fish and shellfish. Carotenes from plant foods and exposure to sunlight are not sufficient to supply the body's requirements for vitamins A and D. Soy products often replace animal products in third world countries where intake of B12 and fat soluble A and D are already low. Soy products actually increase requirements for vitamins B12 and D. Are soy products easy to digest, as claimed? Fermented soy products probably are; but unfermented products with their cargo of phytates, enzyme inhibitors, rancid fatty acids and altered proteins most certainly are not. Pet food manufacturers promote soy free dog and cat food as "highly digestible" Only Fermented Soy Products Are Safe To summarize, traditional fermented soy products such as miso, natto and tempeh, which are usually made with organically grown soybeans, have a long history of use that is generally beneficial when combined with other elements of the Oriental diet including rice, sea foods, fish broth, organ meats and fermented vegetables. The value of precipitated soybean products is problematical, especially when they form the major source of protein in the diet. Modern soy products including soy milks and artificial meat and dairy products made from soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein are new to the diet and pose a number of serious problems. The above information was abstracted from an article written by Sally Fallon and Mary Enig, Ph.D. (an international expert renown in the field of lipid chemistry) for Health Freedom News in September of 1995. ======================================= -- Oz -- Oz |
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Phred > writes
>Didn't see your contribution, Chuck > writes >IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part of >their diet and for so many years? Actually they didn't. In china its relatively recent, it was used for cattle food due to the toxins and phytoestrogens it contains which are toxic to humans. This is why soy is processed (severely), traditionally by lengthy fermentation (soy sauce) or grinding and washing (and less fermenting - 'bean curds'). Manioc, which only contains easily dealt with cyanide as a toxin,is probably safer. see====================== http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...e/browse_threa d/thread/7ff129068297d977/f9b7a90987a314db?q=%22Soya+information+(worth+ a+read)%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22Soya+informati on+(worth+a+read)%22%2 6qt_s%3DSearch+Groups%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search &&d#f9b7a90987a314db uk.business.agriculture > "Soya information (worth a read)" Oz May 29 2002, 8:39 am show options Copied from sci.ag (a torsten post) ========================== >>Where is the proof that soya is safe? Fit for Human Consumption? The Chinese did not eat the soybean as they did other pulses (legumes) such as the lentil, because the soybean contains large quantities of a number of harmful a substances. First among them are potent enzyme inhibitors which block the action of trypsin and other enzymes needed for protein digestion. These "antinutrients" are not completely deactivated during ordinary cooking and can produce serious gastric distress, reduced protein digestion and chronic deficiencies in amino acid uptake. In test animals, diets high in trypsin inhibitors cause enlargement and pathological conditions of the pancreas, including cancer. The soybean also contains hemagglutinin, a clot promoting substance that causes red blood cells to clump together. Trypsin inhibitors and hemagglutinin have been rightly labeled growth depressant substances. Fortunately they are deactivated during the process of fermentation. However, in precipitated products, enzyme inhibitors concentrate in the soaking liquid rather than in the curd. Thus in tofu and bean curd, these enzyme inhibitors are reduced in quantity, but not completely eliminated. Soybeans are also high in phytic acid or phytates. This is an organic acid, present in the bran or hulls of all seeds, which blocks the uptake of essential minerals-calcium, magnesium, iron and especially zinc-in the intestinal tract. Although not a household word, phytates have been extensively studied. Scientists are in general agreement that grain and legume based diets high in phytates contribute to widespread mineral deficiencies in third world countries. Analysis shows that calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc are present in the plant foods eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of soy and rice based diets prevents their absorption. The soybean has a higher phytate content than any other grain or legume that has been studied. Furthermore, it seems to be highly resistant to many phytate reducing techniques such as long, slow cooking. Only a long period of fermentation will significantly reduce the phytate content of soybeans. Thus fermented products such as tempeh and miso provide nourishment that is easily assimilated, but the nutritional value of tofu and bean curd, both high in phytates, is questionable. When precipitated soy products are consumed with meat, the mineral blocking effects of the phytates are reduced. The Japanese traditionally eat tofu as part of a mineral-rich fish broth. Vegetarians who consume tofu and bean curd as a substitute for meat and dairy products risk severe mineral deficiencies. The results of calcium, magnesium and iron deficiency are well known, those of zinc are less so. Zinc is called the intelligence mineral because it is needed for optimal development and functioning of the brain and nervous system. It plays a role in protein synthesis and collagen formation, it Is involved in the blood sugar control mechanism and thus protects against diabetes; it is needed for a healthy reproductive system. Zinc is a key component in numerous vital enzymes and plays a role in the immune system. Phytates found in soy products interfere with zinc absorption more completely than with other minerals. Literature extolling soy products tends to minimize the role of zinc in human physiology, and to gloss over the deleterious effect of diets high in phytic acid. Milk drinking is given as the reason second generation Japanese in America grow taller than their native ancestors. Some investigators postulate that the reduced phytate content of the American diet-whatever maybe its other deficiencies-is the true explanation, pointing out that Asian and Oriental children who do not get enough meat and fish products to counteract the effects of a high phytate diet, frequently suffer rickets, stunting and other growth problems. Marketing the Soybean The truth is, however, that most Americans are unlikely to adopt traditional soy products as their principle food. Tofu, bean curd and tempeh have disagreeable texture and are too bland for the Western palate; pungent and tasty miso and natto lose out in taste; only soy sauce enjoys widespread popularity as a condiment. The soy industry has therefore looked for other ways to market the superabundance of soybeans now grown in the United States. Large scale cultivation of the soybean in the United States began only after the Second World War, and quickly rose to 140 billion pounds per year. Most of the crop is made into animal feed, soy oil for hydrogenated fats margarine and shortening. During the past 20 years, the industry has concentrated on finding markets for the byproducts of soy oil manufacture, including soy "lecithin", made from the oil sludge, and soy protein products, made from defatted soy flakes, a challenge that has involved overcoming consumer resistance to soy products, generally considered tasteless "poverty foods. The quickest way to gain product acceptability in the less affluent society," said a soy industry spokesman, " ... is to have the product consumed on its own merit in a more affluent society."" Hence the proliferation of soy products resembling traditional American foods-soy milk for cows milk, soy baby formula, soy yogurt, soy ice cream, soy cheese, soy flour for baking and textured soy protein as meat substitutes, usually promoted as high protein, low-fat, no cholesterol "health foods" to the upscale consumer increasingly concerned about his health. The growth of vegetarianism among the more affluent classes has greatly accelerated the acceptability and use of these artificial products. Unfortunately they pose numerous dangers. Processing Denatures and Dangers Remain The production of soy milk is relatively simple. In order to remove as much of the trypsin inhibitor content as possible, the beans are first soaked in an alkaline solution. The pureed solution is then heated to about 115 degrees Centigrade in a pressure cooker. This method destroys most (but not all) of the anti-nutrients but has the unhappy side effect of so denaturing the proteins that they become very difficult to digest and much reduced in effectiveness. The phytate content remains in soy milk to block the uptake of essential minerals. In addition, the alkaline soaking solution produces a carcinogen, lysinealine, and reduces the cystine content, which is already low in the soybean. Lacking cystine, the entire protein complex of the soybean becomes useless unless the diet is fortified with cystine-rich meat, eggs, or dairy products. Most soy products that imitate traditional American food items, including baby formulas and some brands of soy milk, are made with soy protein isolate, that is the soy protein isolated from the carbohydrate and fatty acid components that naturally occur in the bean. Soy beans are first ground and subjected to high-temperature and solvent extraction processes to remove the oils. The resultant defatted meal is then mixed with an alkaline solution and sugars in a separation process to remove fiber. Then it is precipitated and separated using an acid wash. Finally the resultant curds are neutralized in an alkaline solution and spray dried at high temperatures to produce high protein powder. This is a highly refined product in which both vitamin and protein quality are compromised-but some trypsin inhibitors remain, even after such extreme refining. Trypsin inhibitor content of soy protein isolate can vary as much as 5-fold. In rats, even low level trypsin inhibitor soy protein isolate feeding results in reduced weight gain compared to controls. Soy product producers are not required to state trypsin inhibitor content on labels, nor even to meet minimum standards, and the public, trained to avoid dietary cholesterol, a substance vital for normal growth and metabolism, has never heard of the potent anti-nutrients found in cholesterol-free soy products. Soy Formula Is Not the Answer Soy protein isolate is the main ingredient of soy-based infant formulas. Along with trypsin inhibitors, these formulas have a high phytate content. Use of soy formula has caused zinc deficiency in infants. Aluminum content of soy formula is 10 times greater than milk based formula, and 100 times greater than unprocessed milk. Aluminum has a toxic effect on the kidneys of infants, and has been implicated as cause in Alzheimer's in adults. Soy milk formulas are often given to babies with milk allergy; but allergies to soy are almost as common as those to milk. Soy formulas lack cholesterol which is absolutely essential for the development of the brain and nervous system; they also lack lactose and galactose, which play an equally important role in the development of the nervous system. I would strongly discourage the use of soy formulas. Nitrosamines, which are potent carcinogens, are often found in soy protein foods, and are greatly increased during the high temperature drying process. Not surprisingly, animal feeding studies show a lower weight gain for rats on soy formula than those on whole milk, high-lactose formula; similar results have been observed in children on macrobiotic diets which include the use of soy milk and large amounts of whole grains. Children brought up on high-phytate diets tend to be thin and scrawny. Fabricated Soy Foods A final indignity to the original soy bean is high-temperature, high-pressure extrusion processing of soy protein isolate to product textured vegetable protein (TVP). Numerous artificial flavorings, particularly MSG, are added to TVP products to mask their strong "beany" taste, and impart the flavor of meat. Soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein are used extensively in school lunch programs, commercial baked goods, diet beverages and fast food products. They are heavily promoted in third world countries and form the basis of many food give-away programs. These soy products greatly inhibit zinc and iron absorption; in test animals they cause enlarged organs, particularly the pancreas and thyroid gland, and increased deposition of fatty acids in the liver. Human feeding tests to determine the cholesterol lowering properties of soy protein isolate have not shown them to be effective. Nevertheless, they are often promoted as having beneficial effects on cholesterol levels. Cancer Preventing or Cancer Causing? The food industry also touts soy products for their cancer preventing properties. Isoflavone aglycones are anticarcinogenic substances found in traditionally fermented soybean products. However, in non-fermented soy products such as tofu and soy milk, these isoflavones are present in an altered form as beta-glycoside conjugates, which have no anti-carcinogenic effect. Some researchers believe the rapid increase in liver and pancreatic cancer in Africa is due to the introduction of soy products there. The fatty acid profile of the soybean includes large amounts of beneficial omega-3 fatty acids compared to other pulses legumes); but these omega-3 fatty acids are particularly susceptible to rancidity when subjected to high pressures and temperatures. This is exactly what is required to remove oil from the bean, as soybean oil is particularly difficult to extract. hexane or other solvents are always used to extract oil from soybeans, and traces remain in the commercial product. While fermented soy products contain protein, vitamins, anti-carcinogenic substances and important fatty acids, they can under no circumstances be called nutritionally complete. Like all pulses, the soybean lacks vital sulfur-containing amino acids cystine and methionine. These are usually supplied by rice and other grains in areas where the soybean is traditionally consumed. Soy should never be considered as a substitute for animal products like meat or milk. Claims that fermented soy products like tempeh can be relied on as a source of vitamin B12, necessary for healthy blood and nervous system, have not been supported by scientific research.,' Finally, soybeans do not supply all-important fat soluble vitamins D and preformed A (retinol) which act as catalysts for the proper absorption and utilization of all minerals and water soluble vitamins in the diet. These "fat soluble activators" are found only in certain animal foods such as organ meats, butter, eggs, fish and shellfish. Carotenes from plant foods and exposure to sunlight are not sufficient to supply the body's requirements for vitamins A and D. Soy products often replace animal products in third world countries where intake of B12 and fat soluble A and D are already low. Soy products actually increase requirements for vitamins B12 and D. Are soy products easy to digest, as claimed? Fermented soy products probably are; but unfermented products with their cargo of phytates, enzyme inhibitors, rancid fatty acids and altered proteins most certainly are not. Pet food manufacturers promote soy free dog and cat food as "highly digestible" Only Fermented Soy Products Are Safe To summarize, traditional fermented soy products such as miso, natto and tempeh, which are usually made with organically grown soybeans, have a long history of use that is generally beneficial when combined with other elements of the Oriental diet including rice, sea foods, fish broth, organ meats and fermented vegetables. The value of precipitated soybean products is problematical, especially when they form the major source of protein in the diet. Modern soy products including soy milks and artificial meat and dairy products made from soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein are new to the diet and pose a number of serious problems. The above information was abstracted from an article written by Sally Fallon and Mary Enig, Ph.D. (an international expert renown in the field of lipid chemistry) for Health Freedom News in September of 1995. ======================================= -- Oz -- Oz |
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Phred > writes
>Didn't see your contribution, Chuck > writes >IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part of >their diet and for so many years? Actually they didn't. In china its relatively recent, it was used for cattle food due to the toxins and phytoestrogens it contains which are toxic to humans. This is why soy is processed (severely), traditionally by lengthy fermentation (soy sauce) or grinding and washing (and less fermenting - 'bean curds'). Manioc, which only contains easily dealt with cyanide as a toxin,is probably safer. see====================== http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...e/browse_threa d/thread/7ff129068297d977/f9b7a90987a314db?q=%22Soya+information+(worth+ a+read)%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22Soya+informati on+(worth+a+read)%22%2 6qt_s%3DSearch+Groups%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search &&d#f9b7a90987a314db uk.business.agriculture > "Soya information (worth a read)" Oz May 29 2002, 8:39 am show options Copied from sci.ag (a torsten post) ========================== >>Where is the proof that soya is safe? Fit for Human Consumption? The Chinese did not eat the soybean as they did other pulses (legumes) such as the lentil, because the soybean contains large quantities of a number of harmful a substances. First among them are potent enzyme inhibitors which block the action of trypsin and other enzymes needed for protein digestion. These "antinutrients" are not completely deactivated during ordinary cooking and can produce serious gastric distress, reduced protein digestion and chronic deficiencies in amino acid uptake. In test animals, diets high in trypsin inhibitors cause enlargement and pathological conditions of the pancreas, including cancer. The soybean also contains hemagglutinin, a clot promoting substance that causes red blood cells to clump together. Trypsin inhibitors and hemagglutinin have been rightly labeled growth depressant substances. Fortunately they are deactivated during the process of fermentation. However, in precipitated products, enzyme inhibitors concentrate in the soaking liquid rather than in the curd. Thus in tofu and bean curd, these enzyme inhibitors are reduced in quantity, but not completely eliminated. Soybeans are also high in phytic acid or phytates. This is an organic acid, present in the bran or hulls of all seeds, which blocks the uptake of essential minerals-calcium, magnesium, iron and especially zinc-in the intestinal tract. Although not a household word, phytates have been extensively studied. Scientists are in general agreement that grain and legume based diets high in phytates contribute to widespread mineral deficiencies in third world countries. Analysis shows that calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc are present in the plant foods eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of soy and rice based diets prevents their absorption. The soybean has a higher phytate content than any other grain or legume that has been studied. Furthermore, it seems to be highly resistant to many phytate reducing techniques such as long, slow cooking. Only a long period of fermentation will significantly reduce the phytate content of soybeans. Thus fermented products such as tempeh and miso provide nourishment that is easily assimilated, but the nutritional value of tofu and bean curd, both high in phytates, is questionable. When precipitated soy products are consumed with meat, the mineral blocking effects of the phytates are reduced. The Japanese traditionally eat tofu as part of a mineral-rich fish broth. Vegetarians who consume tofu and bean curd as a substitute for meat and dairy products risk severe mineral deficiencies. The results of calcium, magnesium and iron deficiency are well known, those of zinc are less so. Zinc is called the intelligence mineral because it is needed for optimal development and functioning of the brain and nervous system. It plays a role in protein synthesis and collagen formation, it Is involved in the blood sugar control mechanism and thus protects against diabetes; it is needed for a healthy reproductive system. Zinc is a key component in numerous vital enzymes and plays a role in the immune system. Phytates found in soy products interfere with zinc absorption more completely than with other minerals. Literature extolling soy products tends to minimize the role of zinc in human physiology, and to gloss over the deleterious effect of diets high in phytic acid. Milk drinking is given as the reason second generation Japanese in America grow taller than their native ancestors. Some investigators postulate that the reduced phytate content of the American diet-whatever maybe its other deficiencies-is the true explanation, pointing out that Asian and Oriental children who do not get enough meat and fish products to counteract the effects of a high phytate diet, frequently suffer rickets, stunting and other growth problems. Marketing the Soybean The truth is, however, that most Americans are unlikely to adopt traditional soy products as their principle food. Tofu, bean curd and tempeh have disagreeable texture and are too bland for the Western palate; pungent and tasty miso and natto lose out in taste; only soy sauce enjoys widespread popularity as a condiment. The soy industry has therefore looked for other ways to market the superabundance of soybeans now grown in the United States. Large scale cultivation of the soybean in the United States began only after the Second World War, and quickly rose to 140 billion pounds per year. Most of the crop is made into animal feed, soy oil for hydrogenated fats margarine and shortening. During the past 20 years, the industry has concentrated on finding markets for the byproducts of soy oil manufacture, including soy "lecithin", made from the oil sludge, and soy protein products, made from defatted soy flakes, a challenge that has involved overcoming consumer resistance to soy products, generally considered tasteless "poverty foods. The quickest way to gain product acceptability in the less affluent society," said a soy industry spokesman, " ... is to have the product consumed on its own merit in a more affluent society."" Hence the proliferation of soy products resembling traditional American foods-soy milk for cows milk, soy baby formula, soy yogurt, soy ice cream, soy cheese, soy flour for baking and textured soy protein as meat substitutes, usually promoted as high protein, low-fat, no cholesterol "health foods" to the upscale consumer increasingly concerned about his health. The growth of vegetarianism among the more affluent classes has greatly accelerated the acceptability and use of these artificial products. Unfortunately they pose numerous dangers. Processing Denatures and Dangers Remain The production of soy milk is relatively simple. In order to remove as much of the trypsin inhibitor content as possible, the beans are first soaked in an alkaline solution. The pureed solution is then heated to about 115 degrees Centigrade in a pressure cooker. This method destroys most (but not all) of the anti-nutrients but has the unhappy side effect of so denaturing the proteins that they become very difficult to digest and much reduced in effectiveness. The phytate content remains in soy milk to block the uptake of essential minerals. In addition, the alkaline soaking solution produces a carcinogen, lysinealine, and reduces the cystine content, which is already low in the soybean. Lacking cystine, the entire protein complex of the soybean becomes useless unless the diet is fortified with cystine-rich meat, eggs, or dairy products. Most soy products that imitate traditional American food items, including baby formulas and some brands of soy milk, are made with soy protein isolate, that is the soy protein isolated from the carbohydrate and fatty acid components that naturally occur in the bean. Soy beans are first ground and subjected to high-temperature and solvent extraction processes to remove the oils. The resultant defatted meal is then mixed with an alkaline solution and sugars in a separation process to remove fiber. Then it is precipitated and separated using an acid wash. Finally the resultant curds are neutralized in an alkaline solution and spray dried at high temperatures to produce high protein powder. This is a highly refined product in which both vitamin and protein quality are compromised-but some trypsin inhibitors remain, even after such extreme refining. Trypsin inhibitor content of soy protein isolate can vary as much as 5-fold. In rats, even low level trypsin inhibitor soy protein isolate feeding results in reduced weight gain compared to controls. Soy product producers are not required to state trypsin inhibitor content on labels, nor even to meet minimum standards, and the public, trained to avoid dietary cholesterol, a substance vital for normal growth and metabolism, has never heard of the potent anti-nutrients found in cholesterol-free soy products. Soy Formula Is Not the Answer Soy protein isolate is the main ingredient of soy-based infant formulas. Along with trypsin inhibitors, these formulas have a high phytate content. Use of soy formula has caused zinc deficiency in infants. Aluminum content of soy formula is 10 times greater than milk based formula, and 100 times greater than unprocessed milk. Aluminum has a toxic effect on the kidneys of infants, and has been implicated as cause in Alzheimer's in adults. Soy milk formulas are often given to babies with milk allergy; but allergies to soy are almost as common as those to milk. Soy formulas lack cholesterol which is absolutely essential for the development of the brain and nervous system; they also lack lactose and galactose, which play an equally important role in the development of the nervous system. I would strongly discourage the use of soy formulas. Nitrosamines, which are potent carcinogens, are often found in soy protein foods, and are greatly increased during the high temperature drying process. Not surprisingly, animal feeding studies show a lower weight gain for rats on soy formula than those on whole milk, high-lactose formula; similar results have been observed in children on macrobiotic diets which include the use of soy milk and large amounts of whole grains. Children brought up on high-phytate diets tend to be thin and scrawny. Fabricated Soy Foods A final indignity to the original soy bean is high-temperature, high-pressure extrusion processing of soy protein isolate to product textured vegetable protein (TVP). Numerous artificial flavorings, particularly MSG, are added to TVP products to mask their strong "beany" taste, and impart the flavor of meat. Soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein are used extensively in school lunch programs, commercial baked goods, diet beverages and fast food products. They are heavily promoted in third world countries and form the basis of many food give-away programs. These soy products greatly inhibit zinc and iron absorption; in test animals they cause enlarged organs, particularly the pancreas and thyroid gland, and increased deposition of fatty acids in the liver. Human feeding tests to determine the cholesterol lowering properties of soy protein isolate have not shown them to be effective. Nevertheless, they are often promoted as having beneficial effects on cholesterol levels. Cancer Preventing or Cancer Causing? The food industry also touts soy products for their cancer preventing properties. Isoflavone aglycones are anticarcinogenic substances found in traditionally fermented soybean products. However, in non-fermented soy products such as tofu and soy milk, these isoflavones are present in an altered form as beta-glycoside conjugates, which have no anti-carcinogenic effect. Some researchers believe the rapid increase in liver and pancreatic cancer in Africa is due to the introduction of soy products there. The fatty acid profile of the soybean includes large amounts of beneficial omega-3 fatty acids compared to other pulses legumes); but these omega-3 fatty acids are particularly susceptible to rancidity when subjected to high pressures and temperatures. This is exactly what is required to remove oil from the bean, as soybean oil is particularly difficult to extract. hexane or other solvents are always used to extract oil from soybeans, and traces remain in the commercial product. While fermented soy products contain protein, vitamins, anti-carcinogenic substances and important fatty acids, they can under no circumstances be called nutritionally complete. Like all pulses, the soybean lacks vital sulfur-containing amino acids cystine and methionine. These are usually supplied by rice and other grains in areas where the soybean is traditionally consumed. Soy should never be considered as a substitute for animal products like meat or milk. Claims that fermented soy products like tempeh can be relied on as a source of vitamin B12, necessary for healthy blood and nervous system, have not been supported by scientific research.,' Finally, soybeans do not supply all-important fat soluble vitamins D and preformed A (retinol) which act as catalysts for the proper absorption and utilization of all minerals and water soluble vitamins in the diet. These "fat soluble activators" are found only in certain animal foods such as organ meats, butter, eggs, fish and shellfish. Carotenes from plant foods and exposure to sunlight are not sufficient to supply the body's requirements for vitamins A and D. Soy products often replace animal products in third world countries where intake of B12 and fat soluble A and D are already low. Soy products actually increase requirements for vitamins B12 and D. Are soy products easy to digest, as claimed? Fermented soy products probably are; but unfermented products with their cargo of phytates, enzyme inhibitors, rancid fatty acids and altered proteins most certainly are not. Pet food manufacturers promote soy free dog and cat food as "highly digestible" Only Fermented Soy Products Are Safe To summarize, traditional fermented soy products such as miso, natto and tempeh, which are usually made with organically grown soybeans, have a long history of use that is generally beneficial when combined with other elements of the Oriental diet including rice, sea foods, fish broth, organ meats and fermented vegetables. The value of precipitated soybean products is problematical, especially when they form the major source of protein in the diet. Modern soy products including soy milks and artificial meat and dairy products made from soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein are new to the diet and pose a number of serious problems. The above information was abstracted from an article written by Sally Fallon and Mary Enig, Ph.D. (an international expert renown in the field of lipid chemistry) for Health Freedom News in September of 1995. ======================================= -- Oz -- Oz |
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"Juhana Harju" > wrote in message ... > rick etter wrote: >> "Juhana Harju" > wrote in message >> ... >>> Phred wrote: >> >> snippage... >> >>>> >>>> This is clearly arse about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat that >>>> crap! >>> >>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of >>> dementia and >>> Azheimer's disease. > >> Now, relate that to the crap that is produced and sold in the US. It >> is not the same product, dolt. Guess you have a hard time with >> conmprehension too, huh? > > No, I don't think so. I agree that it is different if you eat texturized > soy > protein, which might not be so healthy. ================== LOL Which was the discussion I was in. The inplication that soy is soy, and that for those in the US to become magically healthy, all they needed to do was switch to tofu meat substitutes. > >> They eat more fruits and veggies than soy. They eat fish. And >> lastly, they eat less overall. Why do you think that soy is >> responsible for all the 'good?' Agenda driving are you? > > I don't think that soy is "responsible for all good". But eaten as tofu > and with > diet loaded with vegetables and fish it is proven that it is not dangerous > either. ================== Really? That proof is where? The isoflavonols in soy are good in preventing prostate cancer. That is > a clear advantage. > > -- > Juhana > |
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rick etter wrote:
> "Juhana Harju" > wrote in message > ... >> rick etter wrote: >>> "Juhana Harju" > wrote in message >>> ... >>>> Phred wrote: >>> >>> snippage... >>> >>>>> >>>>> This is clearly arse about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat >>>>> that crap! >>>> >>>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of >>>> dementia and >>>> Azheimer's disease. >> >>> Now, relate that to the crap that is produced and sold in the US. >>> It is not the same product, dolt. Guess you have a hard time with >>> conmprehension too, huh? >> >> No, I don't think so. I agree that it is different if you eat >> texturized soy >> protein, which might not be so healthy. > ================== > LOL Which was the discussion I was in. The inplication that soy is > soy, and that for those in the US to become magically healthy, all > they needed to do was switch to tofu meat substitutes. > > >> >>> They eat more fruits and veggies than soy. They eat fish. And >>> lastly, they eat less overall. Why do you think that soy is >>> responsible for all the 'good?' Agenda driving are you? >> >> I don't think that soy is "responsible for all good". But eaten as >> tofu and with >> diet loaded with vegetables and fish it is proven that it is not >> dangerous either. > ================== > Really? That proof is where? > > > The isoflavonols in soy are good in preventing prostate cancer. That > is >> a clear advantage. >> >> -- >> Juhana -- Juhana |
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"Juhana Harju" > wrote in message ... > rick etter wrote: >> "Juhana Harju" > wrote in message >> ... >>> rick etter wrote: >>>> "Juhana Harju" > wrote in message >>>> ... >>>>> Phred wrote: >>>> >>>> snippage... >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This is clearly arse about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat >>>>>> that crap! >>>>> >>>>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of >>>>> dementia and >>>>> Azheimer's disease. >>> >>>> Now, relate that to the crap that is produced and sold in the US. >>>> It is not the same product, dolt. Guess you have a hard time with >>>> conmprehension too, huh? >>> >>> No, I don't think so. I agree that it is different if you eat >>> texturized soy >>> protein, which might not be so healthy. >> ================== >> LOL Which was the discussion I was in. The inplication that soy is >> soy, and that for those in the US to become magically healthy, all >> they needed to do was switch to tofu meat substitutes. >> >> >>> >>>> They eat more fruits and veggies than soy. They eat fish. And >>>> lastly, they eat less overall. Why do you think that soy is >>>> responsible for all the 'good?' Agenda driving are you? >>> >>> I don't think that soy is "responsible for all good". But eaten as >>> tofu and with >>> diet loaded with vegetables and fish it is proven that it is not >>> dangerous either. >> ================== >> Really? That proof is where? >> >> >> The isoflavonols in soy are good in preventing prostate cancer. That >> is >>> a clear advantage. >>> >>> -- >>> Juhana > > -- > Juhana ============= Forget something? |
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rick etter wrote:
> "Juhana Harju" > wrote in message > ... >> rick etter wrote: >>> "Juhana Harju" > wrote in message >>> ... >>>> Phred wrote: >>> >>> snippage... >>> >>>>> >>>>> This is clearly arse about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat >>>>> that crap! >>>> >>>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of >>>> dementia and >>>> Azheimer's disease. >> >>> Now, relate that to the crap that is produced and sold in the US. >>> It is not the same product, dolt. Guess you have a hard time with >>> conmprehension too, huh? >> >> No, I don't think so. I agree that it is different if you eat >> texturized soy >> protein, which might not be so healthy. > > LOL Which was the discussion I was in. Are you drunk? > The inplication that soy is > soy, and that for those in the US to become magically healthy, all > they needed to do was switch to tofu meat substitutes. Harvard university makes a clear distinction between processed soy products and other soy products and gives a recommendation: "Eat soy in moderation. Soybeans, tofu, and other soy-based foods are an excellent alternative to red meat. But don't go overboard. Two to four servings a week is a good target. And stay away from supplements that contain concentrated soy protein or soy extracts, such as isoflavones." http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritio...e/protein.html >>> They eat more fruits and veggies than soy. They eat fish. And >>> lastly, they eat less overall. Why do you think that soy is >>> responsible for all the 'good?' Agenda driving are you? >> >> I don't think that soy is "responsible for all good". But eaten as >> tofu and with >> diet loaded with vegetables and fish it is proven that it is not >> dangerous either. > > Really? That proof is where? There is epidemilogical evidence from the studies of Okinawan elders that eating a diet loaded with vegetables, tofu and fish prevents dementia and Alheimer disease better than Western diets. There is less dementia and Alzheimer disease in the Okinawa than in Western countries. > The isoflavones in soy are good in preventing prostate cancer. That > is a clear advantage. -- Juhana |
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Bruce Sinclair wrote:
> In article >, "Juhana Harju" > > wrote: > >> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of >> dementia and Azheimer's disease. >> >> http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html > > Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause and > effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose.  Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance of dementia and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that they eat a lot of soy? -- Juhana |
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In article >, Oz > wrote:
>Bruce Sinclair > writes >>In article >, "Chuck" > wrote: >>>IF Soy wasn't safe why do the Orientals retain it for such a large part of >>>their diet and for so many years? >> >>Lack of options ? >>How many years ? >>Maybe they tink it tastes good ? > >I posted a long infopack on soy. > >Did anyone read it? Probably not. >It has a lot of definitive information. As you say there is much information out there. Pity some people seem only able to read some of it Bruce ------------------------------ Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing. -Redd Foxx Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups (if there were any) |
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In article >, "Juhana Harju" > wrote:
>Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of dementia and >Azheimer's disease. > >http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause and effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose. Hint. Using epidemiology, you can show conclusively that smoking is good for you or that fat is bad for you. You just to select the right data Bruce ------------------------------ Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing. -Redd Foxx Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups (if there were any) |
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In article >, "Chuck R." > wrote:
>Wow!! you are so f*****g smart it must almost hurt( bet you go to bed with a >headache every night) but then why do you have to suggest everyone else is >stupid just to verify how smart you are. Just whom are you trying to >convince.. And, just to remind you, some of what you post is true but more >is just plain fertilizer (I don't use it anymore cause I dont grow soy now) We can only go by what we read. From what we read, stupid (or perhaps wilfully ignorant) is a fair assement. ... and now you take to top posting ? ... absolute proof Bruce ------------------------------ Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing. -Redd Foxx Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups (if there were any) |
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In article >, "Juhana Harju" > wrote:
>There is epidemilogical evidence from the studies of Okinawan elders that > eating I knew it Bruce ------------------------------ Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing. -Redd Foxx Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups (if there were any) |
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In article >, "Juhana Harju" > wrote:
>Bruce Sinclair wrote: >> In article >, "Juhana Harju" >> > wrote: >> >>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of >>> dementia and Azheimer's disease. >>> >>> http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html >> >> Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause and >> effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose. > >Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance of > dementia >and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that they eat a lot of soy? You miss the point completely, as expected. Epidemiology does notprovide a mechanism, only a relationship. It only looks at the 2 things ... not all the things that might be meaningful. Causality is neither implied, nor meant. The only thing it can do for us is to show "real scientists" where to look for why this might be ... and asa question asker, it is often quite good. It does not, however, answer any questions on its own. Anyone that believes it does is deluded .. Bruce ------------------------------ Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing. -Redd Foxx Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups (if there were any) |
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In article >, "Juhana Harju" > wrote:
>Bruce Sinclair wrote: >> In article >, "Juhana Harju" >> > wrote: >> >>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of >>> dementia and Azheimer's disease. >>> >>> http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html >> >> Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause and >> effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose. > >Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance of > dementia >and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that they eat a lot of soy? You miss the point completely, as expected. Epidemiology does notprovide a mechanism, only a relationship. It only looks at the 2 things ... not all the things that might be meaningful. Causality is neither implied, nor meant. The only thing it can do for us is to show "real scientists" where to look for why this might be ... and asa question asker, it is often quite good. It does not, however, answer any questions on its own. Anyone that believes it does is deluded .. Bruce ------------------------------ Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing. -Redd Foxx Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups (if there were any) |
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Oz wrote:
> Chuck R. > writes > >>"Oz" > wrote in message >> >>>I posted a long infopack on soy. >>> >>>Did anyone read it? >> >>Yes I did, And I have grown children who love and readily consume Soy >>products. Myself, In the seventies I used to work as the farm manager of a >>45,000 acre irrigated soybean farm owned by Bunge Grain, largest exporter of >>Soybeans in the world.. Their major market was China, and primarily bound >>for human consumption. The harvested beans were shipped by barge to >>Destrehan, Louisana where they were loaded on ships embarking to China. >>They had to be cleaner than domestic beans because they were destined for >>human consumption, That's why I have trouble understanding the literature >>quoting "experts" readily cross posting to this site saying Asians don't eat >>soy or soy products. Also 95% of soy products sold in Asian groceries are >>made in Asian countries, not here. These "groceries" have trouble maintaing >>their stocks. > > > What's that got to do with what I posted? Not a damn thing, but that doesn't stop old windbags from shooting the bull about stuff that happened thirty years ago. |
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"Juhana Harju" > wrote in message ... > rick etter wrote: >> "Juhana Harju" > wrote in message >> ... >>> rick etter wrote: >>>> "Juhana Harju" > wrote in message >>>> ... >>>>> Phred wrote: >>>> >>>> snippage... >>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This is clearly arse about. You'd have to be brain dead to eat >>>>>> that crap! >>>>> >>>>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of >>>>> dementia and >>>>> Azheimer's disease. >>> >>>> Now, relate that to the crap that is produced and sold in the US. >>>> It is not the same product, dolt. Guess you have a hard time with >>>> conmprehension too, huh? >>> >>> No, I don't think so. I agree that it is different if you eat >>> texturized soy >>> protein, which might not be so healthy. >> >> LOL Which was the discussion I was in. > > Are you drunk? > >> The inplication that soy is >> soy, and that for those in the US to become magically healthy, all >> they needed to do was switch to tofu meat substitutes. > > Harvard university makes a clear distinction between processed soy > products and > other soy products and gives a recommendation: > > "Eat soy in moderation. ======================= ROTFLMAO Just above you where basing your spew on eating *lots* of soy... You really should try to keep up. Soybeans, tofu, and other soy-based foods are an > excellent alternative to red meat. But don't go overboard. Two to four > servings > a week is a good target. And stay away from supplements that contain > concentrated soy protein or soy extracts, such as isoflavones." > > http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritio...e/protein.html > > >>>> They eat more fruits and veggies than soy. They eat fish. And >>>> lastly, they eat less overall. Why do you think that soy is >>>> responsible for all the 'good?' Agenda driving are you? >>> >>> I don't think that soy is "responsible for all good". But eaten as >>> tofu and with >>> diet loaded with vegetables and fish it is proven that it is not >>> dangerous either. >> >> Really? That proof is where? > > There is epidemilogical evidence from the studies of Okinawan elders that > eating > a diet loaded with vegetables, tofu and fish prevents dementia and > Alheimer > disease better than Western diets. There is less dementia and Alzheimer > disease > in the Okinawa than in Western countries. ====================== LOL The last such 'proof' posted here qoted an elderly lady that didn't go to bed at night without drinking herself to sleep too. Besides, the soy isn't mostly in the form of tofu, and sued as a meat substitute as it is promoted here. They eat fish, and many freah fruits and veggies. And again, they eat lots less than many peoples. So where do you pick out the soy and claim that *ut* is the determining factor, and then promote soy usage here in a different form? Agenda building? > >> The isoflavones in soy are good in preventing prostate cancer. That >> is a clear advantage. > > -- > Juhana > |
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"Juhana Harju" > wrote in message ... > Bruce Sinclair wrote: >> In article >, "Juhana Harju" >> > wrote: >> >>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of >>> dementia and Azheimer's disease. >>> >>> http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html >> >> Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause and >> effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose. > > Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance of > dementia > and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that they eat a lot of > soy? ======================= The rest of their lifestyle/diet is also no where near typical for the US. Again, you're concentration on a people that eat a soy product that is not what was being promoted as 'good' here is telling of an agenda. > > -- > Juhana > |
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In article >, "Juhana Harju" > wrote:
>Bruce Sinclair wrote: >> In article >, "Juhana Harju" >> > wrote: >> >>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of >>> dementia and Azheimer's disease. >>> >>> http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html >> >> Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause and >> effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose. > >Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance of >dementia and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that they >eat a lot of soy? Genetics? Cheers, Phred. -- LID |
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Juhana Harju > writes
>Bruce Sinclair wrote: >> In article >, "Juhana Harju" >> > wrote: >> >>> Okinawan elders, who eat a lot of soy, have a low prevalence of >>> dementia and Azheimer's disease. >>> >>> http://www.okinawaprogram.com/study.html >> >> Ah ... epidemiology ! What people use when they want to show cause and >> effect .. and the last thing you should use for that purpose. > >Perhaps you can explain another mechanism which makes the prevalance of dementia >and Alzheimer disease so low in despite of the fact that they eat a lot of soy? Do they eat a lot of soy in okinawa? -- Oz |
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