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  #616 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 22-12-2004, 09:59 PM
Ted Bell
 
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John Coleman wrote:

"Dutch" wrote in message
...
8

Correct SN, Rick is engaged in the attempt to _use an exception to disprove
a general rule_. Another favoured logical fallacy of his ilk.


False. "veganism" is NOT merely proposing a "general rule", if that were the
case I would not be here arguing. Veganism is an absolute, categorical
belief in a single immutable rule, "do not consume animal products".



This isn't true, the definition simply states that a purely plant based diet
is _an_ example of a vegan diet, not that it is the only vegan diet.


That's utterly false. "veganism" is DEFINED as the
refraining from consuming animal parts. Not merely
trying to avoid them, ACTUALLY not consuming them.

That is ALL it is, too. There is nothing in "vegan"
belief about actually NOT killing animals; it is SOLELY
a consumption rule: do not consume animal parts.
There is nothing more to it. It's no surprise that it
leads to massive moral contradictions.

  #617 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 22-12-2004, 10:12 PM
rick etter
 
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"John Coleman" wrote in message
...

"Dutch" wrote in message
...
8
False, numbers will *sometimes* show eating "vegan" is better, not
always.
"Vegans" "always" like to speak in absolutes.

There are no real numbers.


Yet vegans act as if there were.


We know for certain that animals are exploited in farming to produc
eanimal
products. We do not know much about cds. We are compelled to act on the
certain data and do what we can with the rest.

=============================
You know lots about CDs. You just try to pretend they don't matter, killer.



Utter nonsense, I hear this argument from vegans all the time, and it so
typifies their skewed mindset. Food in the world isn't divided into
teams,
the vegans and the non-vegans, where you send your "A team" against ours.
To be an objective measure all available food must be compared on a level
playing field, "Veganic" against Organic" against "Free range" against
"Factory Farmed", rice against beef, against tofu, it's all food.


compare veganic to any animal farming

============================
Mythical farming? It doesn't compare fool. Besides, it's not *your* diet.
Why are you afraid to discuss/compare *your* diet, killer?



Vegans are not blasting the Innuit (and such) for
their hunting, we are primarily interested in modern farming practices.


No you aren't, that's a croc. Vegans whinge about hunting and fishing as
loudly as they do about commercial farming.


yes, these are seen as cruel as well, bt I think you will find most
literature and time is dedicated to slanging animal farming

womens liberation, veganism = animal liberation


Semantics, what about vegetable liberation? Things don't make sense just
because you want them to.


animal liberation makes sense - it simply means not exploiting animals,
not
using them

====================
Not to you it doesn't, or you would be killing animals for nothing more than
your entertainment, hypocrite.




veganism is not recognised by any authority as a religion


It isn't a religion, it just has religious aspects to it.


define religion, then catagories some philosophies as religious or not
religious based on the definition _ I already posted a link discussing
this
issue, and veganism is no more religious than womens liberation

irrelivant


Very "relivent". The English language incorporates any commonly used
word,
this does not validate the word or mean it refers to something real or
credible.


Irrelivent because veganic agriculture is real, is done and doable.

=======================
Not by you it isn't, so it doesn't matter.


John

Here are some sites, with info on specific areas and
pesticides. Animals die.
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm
http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.htm
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html


Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html






  #618 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 22-12-2004, 10:17 PM
rick etter
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"John Coleman" wrote in message
...

"Dutch" wrote in message
...
8
Drawing conclusions without data is dangerous. In reality you (vegans)
are
compelled to follow the rule that consuming animal products is wrong

because
of "exploitation", a political principle irrationally extended to
animals.


Why is irrational to believe that non human animals should be as free as
humans?

===================
Because the promoters of this idea are hypocites with blood-stained hands
that don't believe the nonsense themselves, as proven by your continued
inane postings, killer.



compare veganic to any animal farming


You did it again. Compare ALL foods against each other on a level playing
field, including plant foods against plant foods, and commerically

produced
plant foods against meat products.


Since commercial meat animals are ineffeciently fed commercial plant
foods,
the cds for them are higher IMO.

=======================
You opionion is based on idiocy and propaganda. There are 'commercial'
meats that use no grains or feed.



Most my diet is organic manually harvested
fruits and veggies BTW.

=======================
BS. Not in the UK it isn't, liar.

The "most vegan" diet would be locally grown veganic
foods.

====================
Which you don't even try to do. Why is that, killer? Because its mythical?





yes, these are seen as cruel as well, bt I think you will find most
literature and time is dedicated to slanging animal farming


Because they comprise 99% of the animals used, not because they are seen

as
less moral.


ok

animal liberation makes sense - it simply means not exploiting animals,

not
using them


Plant liberation makes sense too, on a semantic level.


so - exploited animals are sentient, they can suffer like humans

issue, and veganism is no more religious than womens liberation


Women's liberation had a religious fervor to it 100 years ago, but we
have
learned that women are nothing less than just people. Now it's a

mainstream
idea.


womens liberation is and was never anything like a religion - the fervor
in
it and some religions is just a similarity

Animal liberation has an inherent characteristic that will never allow it

to
reach this level, animals are not human, animals are ubiquitous, we can
never do anything without harming them.


or as is often the case other people - but that does not mean we cannot
try
to avoid the excesses

Irrelivent because veganic agriculture is real, is done and doable.


It's not a credible alternative.


why not

======================
LOL If it were such a credible alternative you fool you'd be eating that
way! You really are just too, too stupid...










Here are some sites, with info on specific areas and
pesticides. Animals die.
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm

http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.htm
http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html


Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html


To cover your selfish pleasure of using usenet, and
maintaining a web page on same, here's are a couple
dealing with power and communications.
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html






John






  #619 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 22-12-2004, 10:49 PM
Abner Hale
 
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John Coleman wrote:
"Abner Hale" wrote in message
oups.com...
John Coleman wrote:
No, they don't. "Vegans" seek to take cheap, easy, purely symbolic
steps to **pretend** to avoid exploiting animals, for the sole

purpose
of claiming a false moral high ground.

They're generally self-marginalizing, socially disfunctional losers

who
seek some cheap, easy way to look down their noses at the "less
ethical" rest of the population.
We've seen it demonstrated here time and time again.


no amount of these ad homini remarks deminish veganism

John


It's impossible to diminish "veganism" any further than you do
yourselves, by your disgusting moral passivity and your weak, fuzzy
thinking.

My observations are accurate. You know they are, and so does everyone
else.



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