Vegan (alt.food.vegan) This newsgroup exists to share ideas and issues of concern among vegans. We are always happy to share our recipes- perhaps especially with omnivores who are simply curious- or even better, accomodating a vegan guest for a meal!

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On Oct 10, 1:06*pm, dh@. wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Oct 2012 07:18:10 -0700 (PDT), Rupert >
> wrote:


> >and I also think that I enjoy my food now about as much
> >as I used to before I became vegan. And I also believe that by being
> >vegan I'm reducing my expected contribution to animal suffering.

>
> * * It depends how a person does it. I feel certain there are vegans who buy
> rice milk when even regular cow milk almost certainly involves fewer deaths, and
> grass raised dairy undoubtedly does.


Arsenic soup. Vegans who drink rice milk contribute to their own
animal suffering.

http://www.foodsmatter.com/foodsmatt...nic-panic-134/
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On okt. 11, 16:46, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 10/11/2012 1:16 AM, Rupert wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 11, 10:12 am, George Plimpton > wrote:
> >> On 10/11/2012 12:40 AM, Rupert wrote:

>
> >>> On Oct 10, 6:08 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> >>>> On 10/10/2012 7:31 AM, Rupert wrote:

>
> >>>>> On Oct 10, 4:27 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> >>>>>> On 10/10/2012 7:22 AM, Rupert wrote:

>
> >>>>>>> On Oct 10, 4:21 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 10/10/2012 1:24 AM, Rupert wrote:

>
> >>>>>>>>> On Oct 9, 5:43 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 10/9/2012 8:12 AM, Rupert wrote:

>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 9, 5:03 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/9/2012 3:34 AM, Rupert wrote:

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 8, 7:07 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/8/2012 9:37 AM, spamtrap1888 wrote:

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 8, 9:01 am, Rupert > wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 8, 5:45 pm, spamtrap1888 > wrote:

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 8, 4:50 am, Rupert > wrote:

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 21, 8:00 am, George Plimpton > wrote:

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 9/20/2012 3:04 PM, Just.Some.guy wrote:

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Check this out Its great
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>http://youtu.be/1LIyVBWaE_A

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's shit. *It's unpalatable shit.

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How would you be in a position to know?

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why are "vegans" continually trying to make stuff look like and taste
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like meat? **Extremely* suspicious.

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why?

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why do you think they call vegan meat Satan?

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't realize they did call it that.

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They changed the spelling to throw people off the track.:

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>http://www.vrg.org/recipes/vjseitan.htm

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ha ha ha ha ha - good one!

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You thought it was a good joke?

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> It was a great joke, especially because you fell for it.

>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I don't really understand why you think I fell for it.

>
> >>>>>>>>>> Because I saw you fall for it. *You fell right over.

>
> >>>>>>>>> I don't understand what you mean. What happened was that I said I
> >>>>>>>>> didn't realize that they called vegan meat Satan, which is of course
> >>>>>>>>> true. At that stage I didn't realize that he wanted to make a pun on
> >>>>>>>>> the names of one of the mock meats, but then he explained himself.

>
> >>>>>>>> <chortle>

>
> >>>>>>> You don't seem to be willing to explain yourself.

>
> >>>>>> What's to explain? *You're a dope, that's all.

>
> >>>>> So you obviously believe, but I fail to understand what reasons you
> >>>>> think you have in favour of this view.

>
> >>>> Ha ha ha! *You just gave yet another reason!

>
> >>> So, Ball, you seem to be trying to sell me this idea that even though
> >>> I have a few accomplishments in the field of mathematics, in all other
> >>> areas I'm just not that bright. Would that be correct?

>
> >> It's more that you choose to be a dope, much as ****wit David Harrison
> >> chooses to be stupid.

>
> > I see.

>
> Probably not, but it was worth a try.


So, do you have any thoughts about what motivates my choice to be a
dope?
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On okt. 11, 16:06, "The Undead Edward M. Kennedy" > wrote:
> "Rupert" > wrote
>
> <You are aware of the existence of quite a few vegans who are world-
> <class athletes, right? Or not?
>
> Well, now all you have to do is list all the "word class athletes" and
> the miniscule percentagae who are vegans. *Then you get to list the
> comprehensive figures of who is vegan, who is not, and why vegans
> are a proper perecentage of "world class athletes".
>
> It's your assertion. *Good luck with that.
>
> --Tedward


My assertion was perfectly correct. I don't need to do any kind of
analysis of how vegans are represented among world-class atheletes in
order to justify that assertion.
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"Rupert" > wrote

> <You are aware of the existence of quite a few vegans who are world-
> <class athletes, right? Or not?
>
> Well, now all you have to do is list all the "word class athletes" and
> the miniscule percentagae who are vegans. Then you get to list the
> comprehensive figures of who is vegan, who is not, and why vegans
> are a proper perecentage of "world class athletes".
>
> It's your assertion. Good luck with that.

<
<My assertion was perfectly correct. I don't need to do any kind of
<analysis of how vegans are represented among world-class atheletes in
<order to justify that assertion.

You are aware of the existence of quite a few unicorns, right?
Or not?

--Tedward


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On 10/11/2012 1:27 AM, Rupert wrote:
> On Oct 10, 5:53 pm, "Mr. N.A.Cho" > wrote:



> You are aware of the existence of quite a few vegans who are world-
> class athletes, right?


No, and neither are you. The percentage of "vegans" among world class
athletes is even smaller than the already minuscule percentage they
comprise in the general population.

Here's a list by someone purporting to show vegetarian and 'vegan'
"world class" athletes. Note that the majority of them a) are
vegetarian, not 'vegan', and b) are long retired from sports. Note also
that most of the ones who are retired were not vegetarian at all during
their active sports careers.

This is an example of your actively working to be a dope.



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On Oct 11, 4:27*am, Rupert > wrote:
> On Oct 10, 5:53*pm, "Mr. N.A.Cho" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 10, 11:47*am, "The Undead Edward M. Kennedy" >
> > wrote:

>
> > > "Rupert" > wrote

>
> > > > > > > > > >> Check this out Its great
> > > > > > > > > >>http://youtu.be/1LIyVBWaE_A

>
> > > > > > > > > > It's shit. It's unpalatable shit.

>
> > > > > > > > > > Why are "vegans" continually trying to make stuff look like and taste like meat? *Extremely* suspicious.

>
> > > > > > > > > It's mostly for people who like meat but are trying to eat "healthy".

>
> > > > > > > > > > No one likes "vegan" food - no one.

>
> > > > > > > > > Some actually do, the problem is none of them are healthy..

>
> > > > > > > > This isn't true. Just about everyone enjoys some food which is
> > > > > > > > suitable for vegans. And a significant majority of those people are
> > > > > > > > healthy. Furthermore a significant majority of those who consume an
> > > > > > > > exclusively vegan diet are quite healthy. The American Dietetic
> > > > > > > > Association has endorsed the position that appropriately-planned vegan
> > > > > > > > diets are nutritionally adequate at all stages of life, and carry many
> > > > > > > > significant health benefits.

>
> > > > > > > > -----

>
> > > > > > > > I was talking about vegans. While technically you and the ADD are
> > > > > > > > correct, it's like claiming unicorn farts are part of your diet. Show
> > > > > > > > me the vegan who can appropriate plan a diet at all stages of life,
> > > > > > > > and I'll show you a unicorn because people need meat and dairy.

>
> > > > > > > > --Tedward

>
> > > > > > > You're an idiot.- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > > > > <
> > > > > > <I'd like to see the type of person that's a cradle to grave vegan.

>
> > > > > > The kid would break his hip taking the first step...

>
> > > > > > --Tedward

>
> > > > > Two friends of mine have been bringing up their children as vegan
> > > > > since birth (with the possible exception of breast milk, I am not
> > > > > sure). The children are perfectly well. One of them is about seven
> > > > > years old, I think.

>
> > > > > -----

>
> > > > > "exception of breast milk" indeed. A is A. Not A is not A.

>
> > > > > You got two imaginary friends and Mr. Cho provided an actual picture.

>
> > > > > --Tedward

>
> > > > They are not imaginary friends. The fact that I don't have photos of
> > > > them to hand is irrelevant; photos would prove nothing. An image of an
> > > > anorexic person has no bearing on the issue.

>
> > > > Your opinions are ignorant prejudices; you don't have any idea of what
> > > > you're talking about. If you did you would provide some real evidence.

>
> > > > -----

>
> > > > Now you're resorting to Ad Hominid attacks, a sure sign you've lost
> > > > the argument.

>
> > > It's not an ad hominem argument. I am not basing my counter-argument
> > > on the assertion that your opinions are ignorant prejudices, I have
> > > given you plenty of good evidence to support my claims. The assertion
> > > that your opinions are ignorant prejudices is just a factual
> > > observation which I choose to put in there as well. It is quite
> > > obviously true because you have shown yourself to be incapable of
> > > producing any evidence to support your ill-founded beliefs.

>
> > > If you insist on remaining ignorant then it's no skin off my nose; I
> > > really couldn't care less.

>
> > > -----

>
> > > Evidence? *We've provided a ton. *You admit backhandedly that
> > > children need milk. *We have canines. *We've all seen sickly looking
> > > vegans (who BTW overlap with goths heavily).

>
> > maybe I'm shallow, hell I'll admit that I probably am - but you don't
> > see many (ANY?) decent looking vegans. *They all look pasty and
> > malnourished. * ****, comparing them to goths is being kind, I'd
> > compare them to zombies.

>
> How would you know? Do you have some special faculty whereby whenever
> you see someone walking down the street you can instantly tell whether
> or not they are vegan?
>


you can make educated guesses - gaunt, pasty-complexion, no muscle
tone, stringy hair, veggie body odor, listless eyes, etc

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On 10/11/2012 11:56 AM, Mr. N.A.Cho wrote:
> On Oct 11, 4:27 am, Rupert > wrote:
>> On Oct 10, 5:53 pm, "Mr. N.A.Cho" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 10, 11:47 am, "The Undead Edward M. Kennedy" >
>>> wrote:

>>
>>>> "Rupert" > wrote

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Check this out Its great
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://youtu.be/1LIyVBWaE_A

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's shit. It's unpalatable shit.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why are "vegans" continually trying to make stuff look like and taste like meat? *Extremely* suspicious.

>>
>>>>>>>>>> It's mostly for people who like meat but are trying to eat "healthy".

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No one likes "vegan" food - no one.

>>
>>>>>>>>>> Some actually do, the problem is none of them are healthy.

>>
>>>>>>>>> This isn't true. Just about everyone enjoys some food which is
>>>>>>>>> suitable for vegans. And a significant majority of those people are
>>>>>>>>> healthy. Furthermore a significant majority of those who consume an
>>>>>>>>> exclusively vegan diet are quite healthy. The American Dietetic
>>>>>>>>> Association has endorsed the position that appropriately-planned vegan
>>>>>>>>> diets are nutritionally adequate at all stages of life, and carry many
>>>>>>>>> significant health benefits.

>>
>>>>>>>>> -----

>>
>>>>>>>>> I was talking about vegans. While technically you and the ADD are
>>>>>>>>> correct, it's like claiming unicorn farts are part of your diet. Show
>>>>>>>>> me the vegan who can appropriate plan a diet at all stages of life,
>>>>>>>>> and I'll show you a unicorn because people need meat and dairy.

>>
>>>>>>>>> --Tedward

>>
>>>>>>>> You're an idiot.- Hide quoted text -

>>
>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>> <I'd like to see the type of person that's a cradle to grave vegan.

>>
>>>>>>> The kid would break his hip taking the first step...

>>
>>>>>>> --Tedward

>>
>>>>>> Two friends of mine have been bringing up their children as vegan
>>>>>> since birth (with the possible exception of breast milk, I am not
>>>>>> sure). The children are perfectly well. One of them is about seven
>>>>>> years old, I think.

>>
>>>>>> -----

>>
>>>>>> "exception of breast milk" indeed. A is A. Not A is not A.

>>
>>>>>> You got two imaginary friends and Mr. Cho provided an actual picture.

>>
>>>>>> --Tedward

>>
>>>>> They are not imaginary friends. The fact that I don't have photos of
>>>>> them to hand is irrelevant; photos would prove nothing. An image of an
>>>>> anorexic person has no bearing on the issue.

>>
>>>>> Your opinions are ignorant prejudices; you don't have any idea of what
>>>>> you're talking about. If you did you would provide some real evidence.

>>
>>>>> -----

>>
>>>>> Now you're resorting to Ad Hominid attacks, a sure sign you've lost
>>>>> the argument.

>>
>>>> It's not an ad hominem argument. I am not basing my counter-argument
>>>> on the assertion that your opinions are ignorant prejudices, I have
>>>> given you plenty of good evidence to support my claims. The assertion
>>>> that your opinions are ignorant prejudices is just a factual
>>>> observation which I choose to put in there as well. It is quite
>>>> obviously true because you have shown yourself to be incapable of
>>>> producing any evidence to support your ill-founded beliefs.

>>
>>>> If you insist on remaining ignorant then it's no skin off my nose; I
>>>> really couldn't care less.

>>
>>>> -----

>>
>>>> Evidence? We've provided a ton. You admit backhandedly that
>>>> children need milk. We have canines. We've all seen sickly looking
>>>> vegans (who BTW overlap with goths heavily).

>>
>>> maybe I'm shallow, hell I'll admit that I probably am - but you don't
>>> see many (ANY?) decent looking vegans. They all look pasty and
>>> malnourished. ****, comparing them to goths is being kind, I'd
>>> compare them to zombies.

>>
>> How would you know? Do you have some special faculty whereby whenever
>> you see someone walking down the street you can instantly tell whether
>> or not they are vegan?
>>

>
> you can make educated guesses - gaunt, pasty-complexion, no muscle
> tone, stringy hair, veggie body odor, listless eyes, etc


I think it's obviously possible to make some wrong guesses, just as it's
possible to guess wrong about who's a queer and who isn't, but I think
it's not all that hard to be right more often than not. The reason is
that there are a lot of other "tells" available. All "vegans" are
left-wingers, although not all left-wingers are "vegans"; but if you see
a car plastered with a lot of ecotopian slogans and other left-wing
blabber, there's a pretty good chance that the owner is at least an
extreme vegetarian, if not "vegan". Also, if the driver gets out of the
car and is wearing Birkenstocks, that's another good "tell".

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On Oct 11, 3:06*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 10/11/2012 11:56 AM, Mr. N.A.Cho wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 11, 4:27 am, Rupert > wrote:
> >> On Oct 10, 5:53 pm, "Mr. N.A.Cho" > wrote:

>
> >>> On Oct 10, 11:47 am, "The Undead Edward M. Kennedy" >
> >>> wrote:

>
> >>>> "Rupert" > wrote

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Check this out Its great
> >>>>>>>>>>>>http://youtu.be/1LIyVBWaE_A

>
> >>>>>>>>>>> It's shit. It's unpalatable shit.

>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Why are "vegans" continually trying to make stuff look like and taste like meat? *Extremely* suspicious.

>
> >>>>>>>>>> It's mostly for people who like meat but are trying to eat "healthy".

>
> >>>>>>>>>>> No one likes "vegan" food - no one.

>
> >>>>>>>>>> Some actually do, the problem is none of them are healthy.

>
> >>>>>>>>> This isn't true. Just about everyone enjoys some food which is
> >>>>>>>>> suitable for vegans. And a significant majority of those people are
> >>>>>>>>> healthy. Furthermore a significant majority of those who consume an
> >>>>>>>>> exclusively vegan diet are quite healthy. The American Dietetic
> >>>>>>>>> Association has endorsed the position that appropriately-planned vegan
> >>>>>>>>> diets are nutritionally adequate at all stages of life, and carry many
> >>>>>>>>> significant health benefits.

>
> >>>>>>>>> -----

>
> >>>>>>>>> I was talking about vegans. While technically you and the ADD are
> >>>>>>>>> correct, it's like claiming unicorn farts are part of your diet.. Show
> >>>>>>>>> me the vegan who can appropriate plan a diet at all stages of life,
> >>>>>>>>> and I'll show you a unicorn because people need meat and dairy.

>
> >>>>>>>>> --Tedward

>
> >>>>>>>> You're an idiot.- Hide quoted text -

>
> >>>>>>> <
> >>>>>>> <I'd like to see the type of person that's a cradle to grave vegan.

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On Oct 11, 2:06*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 10/11/2012 11:56 AM, Mr. N.A.Cho wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 11, 4:27 am, Rupert > wrote:
> >> On Oct 10, 5:53 pm, "Mr. N.A.Cho" > wrote:

>
> >>> On Oct 10, 11:47 am, "The Undead Edward M. Kennedy" >
> >>> wrote:

>
> >>>> "Rupert" > wrote

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Check this out Its great
> >>>>>>>>>>>>http://youtu.be/1LIyVBWaE_A

>
> >>>>>>>>>>> It's shit. It's unpalatable shit.

>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Why are "vegans" continually trying to make stuff look like and taste like meat? *Extremely* suspicious.

>
> >>>>>>>>>> It's mostly for people who like meat but are trying to eat "healthy".

>
> >>>>>>>>>>> No one likes "vegan" food - no one.

>
> >>>>>>>>>> Some actually do, the problem is none of them are healthy.

>
> >>>>>>>>> This isn't true. Just about everyone enjoys some food which is
> >>>>>>>>> suitable for vegans. And a significant majority of those people are
> >>>>>>>>> healthy. Furthermore a significant majority of those who consume an
> >>>>>>>>> exclusively vegan diet are quite healthy. The American Dietetic
> >>>>>>>>> Association has endorsed the position that appropriately-planned vegan
> >>>>>>>>> diets are nutritionally adequate at all stages of life, and carry many
> >>>>>>>>> significant health benefits.

>
> >>>>>>>>> -----

>
> >>>>>>>>> I was talking about vegans. While technically you and the ADD are
> >>>>>>>>> correct, it's like claiming unicorn farts are part of your diet.. Show
> >>>>>>>>> me the vegan who can appropriate plan a diet at all stages of life,
> >>>>>>>>> and I'll show you a unicorn because people need meat and dairy.

>
> >>>>>>>>> --Tedward

>
> >>>>>>>> You're an idiot.- Hide quoted text -

>
> >>>>>>> <
> >>>>>>> <I'd like to see the type of person that's a cradle to grave vegan.

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On 10/11/2012 12:53 PM, Bryan wrote:
> On Oct 11, 2:06 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
>> On 10/11/2012 11:56 AM, Mr. N.A.Cho wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 11, 4:27 am, Rupert > wrote:
>>>> On Oct 10, 5:53 pm, "Mr. N.A.Cho" > wrote:

>>
>>>>> On Oct 10, 11:47 am, "The Undead Edward M. Kennedy" >
>>>>> wrote:

>>
>>>>>> "Rupert" > wrote

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Check this out Its great
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://youtu.be/1LIyVBWaE_A

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's shit. It's unpalatable shit.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why are "vegans" continually trying to make stuff look like and taste like meat? *Extremely* suspicious.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's mostly for people who like meat but are trying to eat "healthy".

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No one likes "vegan" food - no one.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Some actually do, the problem is none of them are healthy.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This isn't true. Just about everyone enjoys some food which is
>>>>>>>>>>> suitable for vegans. And a significant majority of those people are
>>>>>>>>>>> healthy. Furthermore a significant majority of those who consume an
>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively vegan diet are quite healthy. The American Dietetic
>>>>>>>>>>> Association has endorsed the position that appropriately-planned vegan
>>>>>>>>>>> diets are nutritionally adequate at all stages of life, and carry many
>>>>>>>>>>> significant health benefits.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I was talking about vegans. While technically you and the ADD are
>>>>>>>>>>> correct, it's like claiming unicorn farts are part of your diet. Show
>>>>>>>>>>> me the vegan who can appropriate plan a diet at all stages of life,
>>>>>>>>>>> and I'll show you a unicorn because people need meat and dairy.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --Tedward

>>
>>>>>>>>>> You're an idiot.- Hide quoted text -

>>
>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>> <I'd like to see the type of person that's a cradle to grave vegan.

>>
>>>>>>>>> The kid would break his hip taking the first step...

>>
>>>>>>>>> --Tedward

>>
>>>>>>>> Two friends of mine have been bringing up their children as vegan
>>>>>>>> since birth (with the possible exception of breast milk, I am not
>>>>>>>> sure). The children are perfectly well. One of them is about seven
>>>>>>>> years old, I think.

>>
>>>>>>>> -----

>>
>>>>>>>> "exception of breast milk" indeed. A is A. Not A is not A.

>>
>>>>>>>> You got two imaginary friends and Mr. Cho provided an actual picture.

>>
>>>>>>>> --Tedward

>>
>>>>>>> They are not imaginary friends. The fact that I don't have photos of
>>>>>>> them to hand is irrelevant; photos would prove nothing. An image of an
>>>>>>> anorexic person has no bearing on the issue.

>>
>>>>>>> Your opinions are ignorant prejudices; you don't have any idea of what
>>>>>>> you're talking about. If you did you would provide some real evidence.

>>
>>>>>>> -----

>>
>>>>>>> Now you're resorting to Ad Hominid attacks, a sure sign you've lost
>>>>>>> the argument.

>>
>>>>>> It's not an ad hominem argument. I am not basing my counter-argument
>>>>>> on the assertion that your opinions are ignorant prejudices, I have
>>>>>> given you plenty of good evidence to support my claims. The assertion
>>>>>> that your opinions are ignorant prejudices is just a factual
>>>>>> observation which I choose to put in there as well. It is quite
>>>>>> obviously true because you have shown yourself to be incapable of
>>>>>> producing any evidence to support your ill-founded beliefs.

>>
>>>>>> If you insist on remaining ignorant then it's no skin off my nose; I
>>>>>> really couldn't care less.

>>
>>>>>> -----

>>
>>>>>> Evidence? We've provided a ton. You admit backhandedly that
>>>>>> children need milk. We have canines. We've all seen sickly looking
>>>>>> vegans (who BTW overlap with goths heavily).

>>
>>>>> maybe I'm shallow, hell I'll admit that I probably am - but you don't
>>>>> see many (ANY?) decent looking vegans. They all look pasty and
>>>>> malnourished. ****, comparing them to goths is being kind, I'd
>>>>> compare them to zombies.

>>
>>>> How would you know? Do you have some special faculty whereby whenever
>>>> you see someone walking down the street you can instantly tell whether
>>>> or not they are vegan?

>>
>>> you can make educated guesses - gaunt, pasty-complexion, no muscle
>>> tone, stringy hair, veggie body odor, listless eyes, etc

>>
>> I think it's obviously possible to make some wrong guesses, just as it's
>> possible to guess wrong about who's a queer and who isn't, but I think
>> it's not all that hard to be right more often than not. The reason is
>> that there are a lot of other "tells" available. All "vegans" are
>> left-wingers, although not all left-wingers are "vegans"; but if you see
>> a car plastered with a lot of ecotopian slogans and other left-wing
>> blabber, there's a pretty good chance that the owner is at least an
>> extreme vegetarian, if not "vegan". Also, if the driver gets out of the
>> car and is wearing Birkenstocks, that's another good "tell".

>
> That's all correct George, and I am one of the exceptions. I am a
> Lefty who could slaughter an animal and cut a piece out and eat it raw
> right on the spot, and I could take joy in watching a Right-winger be
> slowly eaten by piranhas while I chose not to throw a lifeline that
> was two feet away from my hand.


....thus showing there are other ways to be a shitbag beyond being a food
Nazi.



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Default Vegetarian Breakfast Sausage (meatless sausage)

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 00:42:06 -0700 (PDT), Rupert >
wrote:

>On Oct 10, 9:58*pm, dh@. wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Oct 2012 01:24:24 -0700 (PDT), Rupert >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Oct 9, 8:06*pm, dh@. wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 8 Oct 2012 09:37:18 -0700 (PDT), spamtrap1888 >
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >On Oct 8, 9:01 am, Rupert > wrote:
>> >> >> On Oct 8, 5:45 pm, spamtrap1888 > wrote:
>> >> >> > On Oct 8, 4:50 am, Rupert > wrote:

>>
>> >> >> > > On Sep 21, 8:00 am, Goo wrote:

>>
>> >> >> > > > On 9/20/2012 3:04 PM, Just.Some.guy wrote:

>>
>> >> >> > > > > Check this out Its great
>> >> >> > > > >http://youtu.be/1LIyVBWaE_A

>>
>> >> >> > > > It's shit. It's unpalatable shit.

>>
>> >> >> > > How would you be in a position to know?

>>
>> >> >> > > > Why are "vegans" continually trying to make stuff look like and taste
>> >> >> > > > like meat? *Extremely* suspicious.

>>
>> >> >> > > Why?

>>
>> >> >> > Why do you think they call vegan meat Satan?

>>
>> >> >> I didn't realize they did call it that.

>>
>> >> >They changed the spelling to throw people off the track.:

>>
>> >> >http://www.vrg.org/recipes/vjseitan.htm

>>
>> >> * * It almost certainly involves more animal deaths than grass raised beef, and
>> >> in some cases grain fed beef. Not as bad as rice based products, but still worse
>> >> than grass raised beef if not grain fed as well.

>>
>> >How do you know?

>>
>> * * The only way it could not is if there are no wildlife in the area where the
>> grain is grown. Of course with rice it's not a question due to the flooding and
>> draining in addition to all the machinery and chemical deaths.

>
>I don't really find your remarks convincing. We did an examination of
>one estimate for the expected collateral death rate associated with a
>serving of tofu in the past, and it turned out to be less than the
>corresponding estimate for grass-fed beef.


I don't remember that, but feel that an estimate for number of deaths per
serving of grass raised beef should be much less than one.
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Default Vegetarian Breakfast Sausage (meatless sausage)

On Wed, 10 Oct 2012 14:04:39 -0700 (PDT), "Mr. N.A.Cho"
> wrote:

>On Oct 10, 4:09*pm, Goo wrote:
>> On 10/10/2012 12:54 PM, dh@. wrote:
>> > On Tue, 9 Oct 2012 15:10:23 -0400, "The Undead Edward M. Kennedy" >
>> > wrote:

>>
>> >> "CheeseHusker dos" > wrote

>>
>> >>>>> Check this out Its great
>> >>>>>http://youtu.be/1LIyVBWaE_A

>>
>> >>>> It's shit. It's unpalatable shit.

>>
>> >>>> Why are "vegans" continually trying to make stuff look like and taste like meat? *Extremely* suspicious.

>>
>> >>> It's mostly for people who like meat but are trying to eat "healthy".

>>
>> >>>> No one likes "vegan" food - no one.

>>
>> >>> Some actually do, the problem is none of them are healthy.
>> >> <
>> >> <I don't the title of this thread - why would anyone want to make
>> >> <sausage from vegetarians?

>>
>> >> Maybe some people need to limit the amount of protein in
>> >> thier diet...?

>>
>> > * * *Veganism is more than just concern about health and diet. Vegans try to
>> > avoid using any products which contribute to the lives and deaths of livestock
>> > animals

>>
>> There is no reason to "contribute" to livestock animals "getting to
>> experience life."- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -

>
>this now reminds me of the Twilight Zone Episode "To Serve Man".
>
>IT'S A COOKBOOK!!!!!


Whatever. Billions of livestock animals do live only because they're raised
for food so their lives deserve as much or more consideration than their deaths.
Eliminationists who abuse the gross misnomer "animal rights" are opposed to
giving the animals' lives as much or more consideration than their deaths
because doing so works against the elimination objective. In case anyone is
unaware of it they not only want to eliminate livestock but all domestic
animals. The difference between animal welfare and the misnomer is: the animals.
AW wants to provide decent lives to billions of animals, while the misnomer
wants to prevent such animals from existing.
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Default Vegetarian Breakfast Sausage (meatless sausage)

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 08:06:40 -0700 (PDT), spamtrap1888 >
wrote:

>On Oct 10, 1:06*pm, dh@. wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Oct 2012 07:18:10 -0700 (PDT), Rupert >
>> wrote:

>
>> >and I also think that I enjoy my food now about as much
>> >as I used to before I became vegan. And I also believe that by being
>> >vegan I'm reducing my expected contribution to animal suffering.

>>
>> * * It depends how a person does it. I feel certain there are vegans who buy
>> rice milk when even regular cow milk almost certainly involves fewer deaths, and
>> grass raised dairy undoubtedly does.

>
>Arsenic soup. Vegans who drink rice milk contribute to their own
>animal suffering.
>
>http://www.foodsmatter.com/foodsmatt...nic-panic-134/


Less arsenic does seem like another good point in favor of cow milk.
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Default Vegetarian Breakfast Sausage (meatless sausage)

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 01:17:44 -0700 (PDT), Rupert >
wrote:

>On Oct 10, 9:56*pm, dh@. wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Oct 2012 07:33:24 -0700 (PDT), Rupert >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Oct 10, 4:28*pm, "The Undead Edward M. Kennedy" > wrote:
>> >> "Rupert" > wrote

>>
>> >> > >> Check this out Its great
>> >> > >>http://youtu.be/1LIyVBWaE_A

>>
>> >> > > It's shit. It's unpalatable shit.

>>
>> >> > > Why are "vegans" continually trying to make stuff look like and taste like meat? *Extremely* suspicious.

>>
>> >> > It's mostly for people who like meat but are trying to eat "healthy".

>>
>> >> > > No one likes "vegan" food - no one.

>>
>> >> > Some actually do, the problem is none of them are healthy.

>>
>> >> This isn't true. Just about everyone enjoys some food which is
>> >> suitable for vegans. And a significant majority of those people are
>> >> healthy. Furthermore a significant majority of those who consume an
>> >> exclusively vegan diet are quite healthy. The American Dietetic
>> >> Association has endorsed the position that appropriately-planned vegan
>> >> diets are nutritionally adequate at all stages of life, and carry many
>> >> significant health benefits.

>>
>> >> -----

>>
>> >> I was talking about vegans. *While technically you and the ADD are
>> >> correct, it's like claiming unicorn farts are part of your diet. *Show
>> >> me the vegan who can appropriate plan a diet at all stages of life,
>> >> and I'll show you a unicorn because people need meat and dairy.

>>
>> >I know plenty of vegans who have well-planned diets and are perfectly
>> >healthy, and at least two doctors have told me that it is a very good
>> >thing that I am vegan.

>>
>> * * Why would a doctor tell you it's good you're a vegan?
>>

>
>Presumably because they believed it to be the case.


Being a vegan isn't only about your health.

>> >It is just as easy to sensibly plan a vegan
>> >diet as an omnivorous one. Your opinions about vegans are just not
>> >especially well-informed; you don't really know what you're talking
>> >about.

>>
>> * * You don't contribute to any decent lives for livestock, but only to the
>> deaths of wildlife. Hopefully he knows that much at least.

>
>I have taken steps to reduce my contribution to the amount of
>suffering that takes place. I don't see any good reason to think that
>the strategy I've chosen is a poor one.


You could contribute to decent lives for livestock, and probably to less
suffering at the same time.
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Default Vegetarian Breakfast Sausage (meatless sausage)

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 01:15:05 -0700 (PDT), Rupert >
wrote:

>On Oct 10, 10:06*pm, dh@. wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Oct 2012 07:18:10 -0700 (PDT), Rupert >
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Oct 10, 4:09 pm, "J.C. Watts" > wrote:
>> >> On Oct 10, 3:26 am, Rupert > wrote:

>>
>> >> > On Oct 9, 8:40 pm, "The Undead Edward M. Kennedy" > wrote:

>>
>> >> > > "George Plimpton" > wrote

>>
>> >> > > >> Check this out Its great
>> >> > > >>http://youtu.be/1LIyVBWaE_A

>>
>> >> > > > It's shit. It's unpalatable shit.

>>
>> >> > > > Why are "vegans" continually trying to make stuff look like and taste like meat? *Extremely* suspicious.

>>
>> >> > > It's mostly for people who like meat but are trying to eat "healthy".

>>
>> >> > > > No one likes "vegan" food - no one.

>>
>> >> > > Some actually do, the problem is none of them are healthy.

>>
>> >> > This isn't true. Just about everyone enjoys some food which is
>> >> > suitable for vegans. And a significant majority of those people are
>> >> > healthy. Furthermore a significant majority of those who consume an
>> >> > exclusively vegan diet are quite healthy. The American Dietetic
>> >> > Association has endorsed the position that appropriately-planned vegan
>> >> > diets are nutritionally adequate at all stages of life, and carry many
>> >> > significant health benefits.

>>
>> >> Yeah, but hamburgers taste so much better.

>>
>> >Well, if that's what you reckon then that's fine. I've been vegan for
>> >about 16 years and I definitely remember that I used to enjoy the
>> >taste of meat

>>
>> * * Then why didn't you begin contributing to decent lives for cattle by buying
>> grass raise beef and dairy products instead of not contributing to anything
>> other than the deaths of wildlife?
>>

>
>Let's be clear about what you think the upside would be. You think
>that I would be increasing the expected number of cows who come into
>existence and lead fairly happy lives, as well as reducing my
>contribution to collateral deaths caused by plant-based agriculture,
>and that would be a good thing? Is that the story?


If you did it right, yes. If you didn't, no. If you bought a veal calf that
was soon to be slaughtered and made a deal with a farmer to raise it for you for
two years with no grain, then you had it humanely slaughtered and you ate that
instead of your soy stuff you would reduce your contribution plus benefit a
livestock animal in the biggest way. You could do the same with the brothers of
commercial laying hens. You might even be able to get them for free and give
them a good life, then slaughter humanely... That's probably the best way you
could do it, but there are variations between that and doing nothing as you are
now.

>> >and I also think that I enjoy my food now about as much
>> >as I used to before I became vegan. And I also believe that by being
>> >vegan I'm reducing my expected contribution to animal suffering.

>>
>> * * It depends how a person does it. I feel certain there are vegans who buy
>> rice milk when even regular cow milk almost certainly involves fewer deaths, and
>> grass raised dairy undoubtedly does.
>>

>
>Well, how did you come to that conclusion; do you have any kind of
>estimate available for how many premature deaths are required to
>produce one serving of rice milk?


"ok, get your calculator out, we'll be numerate he

it takes 7 passes with a 30' combine to cut an acre (208' x 208'). to
digest 7,000 frogs in that acre (7,000 1st cutting + 3,000 2nd cutting
for a total of 10,000 - hard shower), that means 1000 unlucky (slow, bad
jumpers, ...) frogs in the 6240 sq.ft. that constitutes *one* pass, or
one per 6+ sq.ft. or 5 per lineal foot of travel.

i *did* say these numbers were conservative, didn't i?

for the 'deluge' (i used 35,000 in the faq, divided 25k & 10k per
cutting), the numbers are ~3500 per pass; one for every 1½ sq.ft.; and
~17 per lineal foot of travel.

[...]

> The closest diderot comes to providing us with evidence we could
> possibly remeasure is his "500 yard long, foot-wide windrows of drowned
> grey and brown (rats)". You and I could layout rats in a matching
> configuration and do a head count, but there wouldn't be much point
> since diderot goes on to say that this mass drowning occurs "whenever
> the rice is flooded". Then he neglects to tell us how often he floods
> his fields.


rice has to grow in water, so it is flooded in april, drained for
harvest in july/august, reflooded and drained in october. we flood in
mid-december for waterfowl, and drain in february. in february and
march, the land is disced and planed." - didderot

>> >But you may find it unlikely that you would enjoy food and/or you may
>> >not find the consideration about animal suffering to be compelling.
>> >Which is of course your choice, I have no interest in trying to get
>> >you to change your mind.

>>
>> * * I told a guy about the difference between cage free and battery farmed eggs
>> and he started buying cage free. So he's doing something while veganism does
>> nothing.

>
>This assertion strikes me as irrational. Moving from battery-farmed
>eggs to cage-free eggs is of course an improvement, and moving to no
>eggs at all is at least as much of an improvement.


Not from my pov. From my pov not supporting the cage free method is nothing
more than not supporting the cage free method. I believe the cage method is
cruel but that most cage free hens have lives of positive value to them. If you
don't know what that means yet then you just don't know.

>> Vegans help livestock like dead people help livestock, while at the
>> same time still contributing to the deaths of wildlife that most people do.

>
>The belief is that most animals living on modern farms have lives
>which contain a lot of suffering, and the motivation is to reduce the
>number of animals who are brought into existence in order to lead such
>lives. Veganism sounds like one pretty rational strategy for achieving
>this goal. But perhaps you think that there is something wrong with
>the goal?


I believe a lot of livestock do have lives of positive value, and that
almost all of them could if people took the interest. Amusingly before I started
posting here I imagined that sort of thing and what could be done to make their
lives better was the sort of things people discussed, and WHICH animals have
lives of positive value and which do not. LOL...you people can't get anywhere
near stuff like that.


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On Oct 11, 2:56*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 10/11/2012 12:53 PM, Bryan wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 11, 2:06 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> >> On 10/11/2012 11:56 AM, Mr. N.A.Cho wrote:

>
> >>> On Oct 11, 4:27 am, Rupert > wrote:
> >>>> On Oct 10, 5:53 pm, "Mr. N.A.Cho" > wrote:

>
> >>>>> On Oct 10, 11:47 am, "The Undead Edward M. Kennedy" >
> >>>>> wrote:

>
> >>>>>> "Rupert" > wrote

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Check this out Its great
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>http://youtu.be/1LIyVBWaE_A

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It's shit. It's unpalatable shit.

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Why are "vegans" continually trying to make stuff look like and taste like meat? *Extremely* suspicious.

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> It's mostly for people who like meat but are trying to eat "healthy".

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> No one likes "vegan" food - no one.

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Some actually do, the problem is none of them are healthy.

>
> >>>>>>>>>>> This isn't true. Just about everyone enjoys some food which is
> >>>>>>>>>>> suitable for vegans. And a significant majority of those people are
> >>>>>>>>>>> healthy. Furthermore a significant majority of those who consume an
> >>>>>>>>>>> exclusively vegan diet are quite healthy. The American Dietetic
> >>>>>>>>>>> Association has endorsed the position that appropriately-planned vegan
> >>>>>>>>>>> diets are nutritionally adequate at all stages of life, and carry many
> >>>>>>>>>>> significant health benefits.

>
> >>>>>>>>>>> -----

>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I was talking about vegans. While technically you and the ADD are
> >>>>>>>>>>> correct, it's like claiming unicorn farts are part of your diet. Show
> >>>>>>>>>>> me the vegan who can appropriate plan a diet at all stages of life,
> >>>>>>>>>>> and I'll show you a unicorn because people need meat and dairy.

>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --Tedward

>
> >>>>>>>>>> You're an idiot.- Hide quoted text -

>
> >>>>>>>>> <
> >>>>>>>>> <I'd like to see the type of person that's a cradle to grave vegan.

>
> >>>>>>>>> The kid would break his hip taking the first step...

>
> >>>>>>>>> --Tedward

>
> >>>>>>>> Two friends of mine have been bringing up their children as vegan
> >>>>>>>> since birth (with the possible exception of breast milk, I am not
> >>>>>>>> sure). The children are perfectly well. One of them is about seven
> >>>>>>>> years old, I think.

>
> >>>>>>>> -----

>
> >>>>>>>> "exception of breast milk" indeed. A is A. Not A is not A.

>
> >>>>>>>> You got two imaginary friends and Mr. Cho provided an actual picture.

>
> >>>>>>>> --Tedward

>
> >>>>>>> They are not imaginary friends. The fact that I don't have photos of
> >>>>>>> them to hand is irrelevant; photos would prove nothing. An image of an
> >>>>>>> anorexic person has no bearing on the issue.

>
> >>>>>>> Your opinions are ignorant prejudices; you don't have any idea of what
> >>>>>>> you're talking about. If you did you would provide some real evidence.

>
> >>>>>>> -----

>
> >>>>>>> Now you're resorting to Ad Hominid attacks, a sure sign you've lost
> >>>>>>> the argument.

>
> >>>>>> It's not an ad hominem argument. I am not basing my counter-argument
> >>>>>> on the assertion that your opinions are ignorant prejudices, I have
> >>>>>> given you plenty of good evidence to support my claims. The assertion
> >>>>>> that your opinions are ignorant prejudices is just a factual
> >>>>>> observation which I choose to put in there as well. It is quite
> >>>>>> obviously true because you have shown yourself to be incapable of
> >>>>>> producing any evidence to support your ill-founded beliefs.

>
> >>>>>> If you insist on remaining ignorant then it's no skin off my nose; I
> >>>>>> really couldn't care less.

>
> >>>>>> -----

>
> >>>>>> Evidence? *We've provided a ton. *You admit backhandedly that
> >>>>>> children need milk. *We have canines. *We've all seen sickly looking
> >>>>>> vegans (who BTW overlap with goths heavily).

>
> >>>>> maybe I'm shallow, hell I'll admit that I probably am - but you don't
> >>>>> see many (ANY?) decent looking vegans. *They all look pasty and
> >>>>> malnourished. * ****, comparing them to goths is being kind, I'd
> >>>>> compare them to zombies.

>
> >>>> How would you know? Do you have some special faculty whereby whenever
> >>>> you see someone walking down the street you can instantly tell whether
> >>>> or not they are vegan?

>
> >>> you can make educated guesses - gaunt, pasty-complexion, no muscle
> >>> tone, stringy hair, veggie body odor, listless eyes, etc

>
> >> I think it's obviously possible to make some wrong guesses, just as it's
> >> possible to guess wrong about who's a queer and who isn't, but I think
> >> it's not all that hard to be right more often than not. *The reason is
> >> that there are a lot of other "tells" available. *All "vegans" are
> >> left-wingers, although not all left-wingers are "vegans"; but if you see
> >> a car plastered with a lot of ecotopian slogans and other left-wing
> >> blabber, there's a pretty good chance that the owner is at least an
> >> extreme vegetarian, if not "vegan". *Also, if the driver gets out of the
> >> car and is wearing Birkenstocks, that's another good "tell".

>
> > That's all correct George, and I am one of the exceptions. *I am a
> > Lefty who could slaughter an animal and cut a piece out and eat it raw
> > right on the spot, and I could take joy in watching a Right-winger be
> > slowly eaten by piranhas while I chose not to throw a lifeline that
> > was two feet away from my hand.

>
> ...thus showing there are other ways to be a shitbag beyond being a food
> Nazi.


What? Being an economic Nazi? Thinking that the government exists to
create a safe climate for corporate exploitation?

--Bryan
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On Oct 11, 10:55*pm, dh@. wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 00:42:06 -0700 (PDT), Rupert >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Oct 10, 9:58 pm, dh@. wrote:
> >> On Wed, 10 Oct 2012 01:24:24 -0700 (PDT), Rupert >
> >> wrote:

>
> >> >On Oct 9, 8:06 pm, dh@. wrote:
> >> >> On Mon, 8 Oct 2012 09:37:18 -0700 (PDT), spamtrap1888 >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >On Oct 8, 9:01 am, Rupert > wrote:
> >> >> >> On Oct 8, 5:45 pm, spamtrap1888 > wrote:
> >> >> >> > On Oct 8, 4:50 am, Rupert > wrote:

>
> >> >> >> > > On Sep 21, 8:00 am, Goo wrote:

>
> >> >> >> > > > On 9/20/2012 3:04 PM, Just.Some.guy wrote:

>
> >> >> >> > > > > Check this out Its great
> >> >> >> > > > >http://youtu.be/1LIyVBWaE_A

>
> >> >> >> > > > It's shit. It's unpalatable shit.

>
> >> >> >> > > How would you be in a position to know?

>
> >> >> >> > > > Why are "vegans" continually trying to make stuff look like and taste
> >> >> >> > > > like meat? *Extremely* suspicious.

>
> >> >> >> > > Why?

>
> >> >> >> > Why do you think they call vegan meat Satan?

>
> >> >> >> I didn't realize they did call it that.

>
> >> >> >They changed the spelling to throw people off the track.:

>
> >> >> >http://www.vrg.org/recipes/vjseitan.htm

>
> >> >> It almost certainly involves more animal deaths than grass raised beef, and
> >> >> in some cases grain fed beef. Not as bad as rice based products, but still worse
> >> >> than grass raised beef if not grain fed as well.

>
> >> >How do you know?

>
> >> The only way it could not is if there are no wildlife in the area where the
> >> grain is grown. Of course with rice it's not a question due to the flooding and
> >> draining in addition to all the machinery and chemical deaths.

>
> >I don't really find your remarks convincing. We did an examination of
> >one estimate for the expected collateral death rate associated with a
> >serving of tofu in the past, and it turned out to be less than the
> >corresponding estimate for grass-fed beef.

>
> * * I don't remember that, but feel that an estimate for number of deaths per
> serving of grass raised beef should be much less than one.


Yes, we did agree on that point.
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Default Vegetarian Breakfast Sausage (meatless sausage)

On Oct 11, 11:02*pm, dh@. wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 01:15:05 -0700 (PDT), Rupert >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Oct 10, 10:06*pm, dh@. wrote:
> >> On Wed, 10 Oct 2012 07:18:10 -0700 (PDT), Rupert >
> >> wrote:

>
> >> >On Oct 10, 4:09 pm, "J.C. Watts" > wrote:
> >> >> On Oct 10, 3:26 am, Rupert > wrote:

>
> >> >> > On Oct 9, 8:40 pm, "The Undead Edward M. Kennedy" > wrote:

>
> >> >> > > "George Plimpton" > wrote

>
> >> >> > > >> Check this out Its great
> >> >> > > >>http://youtu.be/1LIyVBWaE_A

>
> >> >> > > > It's shit. It's unpalatable shit.

>
> >> >> > > > Why are "vegans" continually trying to make stuff look like and taste like meat? *Extremely* suspicious.

>
> >> >> > > It's mostly for people who like meat but are trying to eat "healthy".

>
> >> >> > > > No one likes "vegan" food - no one.

>
> >> >> > > Some actually do, the problem is none of them are healthy.

>
> >> >> > This isn't true. Just about everyone enjoys some food which is
> >> >> > suitable for vegans. And a significant majority of those people are
> >> >> > healthy. Furthermore a significant majority of those who consume an
> >> >> > exclusively vegan diet are quite healthy. The American Dietetic
> >> >> > Association has endorsed the position that appropriately-planned vegan
> >> >> > diets are nutritionally adequate at all stages of life, and carry many
> >> >> > significant health benefits.

>
> >> >> Yeah, but hamburgers taste so much better.

>
> >> >Well, if that's what you reckon then that's fine. I've been vegan for
> >> >about 16 years and I definitely remember that I used to enjoy the
> >> >taste of meat

>
> >> * * Then why didn't you begin contributing to decent lives for cattle by buying
> >> grass raise beef and dairy products instead of not contributing to anything
> >> other than the deaths of wildlife?

>
> >Let's be clear about what you think the upside would be. You think
> >that I would be increasing the expected number of cows who come into
> >existence and lead fairly happy lives, as well as reducing my
> >contribution to collateral deaths caused by plant-based agriculture,
> >and that would be a good thing? Is that the story?

>
> * * If you did it right, yes. If you didn't, no. If you bought a veal calf that
> was soon to be slaughtered and made a deal with a farmer to raise it for you for
> two years with no grain, then you had it humanely slaughtered and you ate that
> instead of your soy stuff you would reduce your contribution plus benefit a
> livestock animal in the biggest way.


So how much do you suppose that would cost?

> You could do the same with the brothers of
> commercial laying hens. You might even be able to get them for free and give
> them a good life, then slaughter humanely... That's probably the best way you
> could do it, but there are variations between that and doing nothing as you are
> now.
>
> >> >and I also think that I enjoy my food now about as much
> >> >as I used to before I became vegan. And I also believe that by being
> >> >vegan I'm reducing my expected contribution to animal suffering.

>
> >> * * It depends how a person does it. I feel certain there are vegans who buy
> >> rice milk when even regular cow milk almost certainly involves fewer deaths, and
> >> grass raised dairy undoubtedly does.

>
> >Well, how did you come to that conclusion; do you have any kind of
> >estimate available for how many premature deaths are required to
> >produce one serving of rice milk?

>
> "ok, get your calculator out, we'll be numerate he
>
> it takes 7 passes with a 30' combine to cut an acre (208' x 208'). *to
> digest 7,000 frogs in that acre (7,000 1st cutting + 3,000 2nd cutting
> for a total of 10,000 - hard shower), that means 1000 unlucky (slow, bad
> jumpers, ...) frogs in the 6240 sq.ft. that constitutes *one* pass, or
> one per 6+ sq.ft. or 5 per lineal foot of travel.
>
> i *did* say these numbers were conservative, didn't i?
>
> for the 'deluge' (i used 35,000 in the faq, divided 25k & 10k per
> cutting), the numbers are ~3500 per pass; one for every 1½ sq.ft.; and
> ~17 per lineal foot of travel.
>
> [...]
>


Yeah, ok, but we still haven't finished; you need to say how much rice
milk you get out of an acre of rice.

> > The closest diderot comes to providing us with evidence we could
> > possibly remeasure is his "500 yard long, foot-wide windrows of drowned
> > grey and brown (rats)". *You and I could layout rats in a matching
> > configuration and do a head count, but there wouldn't be much point
> > since diderot goes on to say that this mass drowning occurs "whenever
> > the rice is flooded". *Then he neglects to tell us how often he floods
> > his fields.

>


I didn't write this. Who is this from?

> rice has to grow in water, so it is flooded in april, drained for
> harvest in july/august, reflooded and drained in october. *we flood in
> mid-december for waterfowl, and drain in february. *in february and
> march, the land is disced and planed." - didderot
>
> >> >But you may find it unlikely that you would enjoy food and/or you may
> >> >not find the consideration about animal suffering to be compelling.
> >> >Which is of course your choice, I have no interest in trying to get
> >> >you to change your mind.

>
> >> * * I told a guy about the difference between cage free and battery farmed eggs
> >> and he started buying cage free. So he's doing something while veganism does
> >> nothing.

>
> >This assertion strikes me as irrational. Moving from battery-farmed
> >eggs to cage-free eggs is of course an improvement, and moving to no
> >eggs at all is at least as much of an improvement.

>
> * * Not from my pov. From my pov not supporting the cage free method is nothing
> more than not supporting the cage free method. I believe the cage method is
> cruel but that most cage free hens have lives of positive value to them. If you
> don't know what that means yet then you just don't know.
>


Well, it's at least as much of an improvement in terms of suffering
reduction. You obviously think that encouraging people to bring
animals into existence whose lives will contain a balance of pleasant
experiences over aversive experiences should be part of the goal too.

> >> Vegans help livestock like dead people help livestock, while at the
> >> same time still contributing to the deaths of wildlife that most people do.

>
> >The belief is that most animals living on modern farms have lives
> >which contain a lot of suffering, and the motivation is to reduce the
> >number of animals who are brought into existence in order to lead such
> >lives. Veganism sounds like one pretty rational strategy for achieving
> >this goal. But perhaps you think that there is something wrong with
> >the goal?

>
> * * I believe a lot of livestock do have lives of positive value, and that
> almost all of them could if people took the interest. Amusingly before I started
> posting here I imagined that sort of thing and what could be done to make their
> lives better was the sort of things people discussed, and WHICH animals have
> lives of positive value and which do not. LOL...you people can't get anywhere
> near stuff like that.


So how about animals in the wild? Are their lives "of positive value"?
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On Oct 11, 10:57*pm, dh@. wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 01:17:44 -0700 (PDT), Rupert >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Oct 10, 9:56 pm, dh@. wrote:
> >> On Wed, 10 Oct 2012 07:33:24 -0700 (PDT), Rupert >
> >> wrote:

>
> >> >On Oct 10, 4:28 pm, "The Undead Edward M. Kennedy" > wrote:
> >> >> "Rupert" > wrote

>
> >> >> > >> Check this out Its great
> >> >> > >>http://youtu.be/1LIyVBWaE_A

>
> >> >> > > It's shit. It's unpalatable shit.

>
> >> >> > > Why are "vegans" continually trying to make stuff look like and taste like meat? *Extremely* suspicious.

>
> >> >> > It's mostly for people who like meat but are trying to eat "healthy".

>
> >> >> > > No one likes "vegan" food - no one.

>
> >> >> > Some actually do, the problem is none of them are healthy.

>
> >> >> This isn't true. Just about everyone enjoys some food which is
> >> >> suitable for vegans. And a significant majority of those people are
> >> >> healthy. Furthermore a significant majority of those who consume an
> >> >> exclusively vegan diet are quite healthy. The American Dietetic
> >> >> Association has endorsed the position that appropriately-planned vegan
> >> >> diets are nutritionally adequate at all stages of life, and carry many
> >> >> significant health benefits.

>
> >> >> -----

>
> >> >> I was talking about vegans. While technically you and the ADD are
> >> >> correct, it's like claiming unicorn farts are part of your diet. Show
> >> >> me the vegan who can appropriate plan a diet at all stages of life,
> >> >> and I'll show you a unicorn because people need meat and dairy.

>
> >> >I know plenty of vegans who have well-planned diets and are perfectly
> >> >healthy, and at least two doctors have told me that it is a very good
> >> >thing that I am vegan.

>
> >> Why would a doctor tell you it's good you're a vegan?

>
> >Presumably because they believed it to be the case.

>
> * * Being a vegan isn't only about your health.
>


Indeed. Obviously I never said it was.

> >> >It is just as easy to sensibly plan a vegan
> >> >diet as an omnivorous one. Your opinions about vegans are just not
> >> >especially well-informed; you don't really know what you're talking
> >> >about.

>
> >> You don't contribute to any decent lives for livestock, but only to the
> >> deaths of wildlife. Hopefully he knows that much at least.

>
> >I have taken steps to reduce my contribution to the amount of
> >suffering that takes place. I don't see any good reason to think that
> >the strategy I've chosen is a poor one.

>
> * * You could contribute to decent lives for livestock, and probably to less
> suffering at the same time.


Do you think that animals in the wild have "decent lives"?
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On Oct 11, 7:35*pm, "The Undead Edward M. Kennedy" > wrote:
> "Rupert" > wrote
>
> > <You are aware of the existence of quite a few vegans who are world-
> > <class athletes, right? Or not?

>
> > Well, now all you have to do is list all the "word class athletes" and
> > the miniscule percentagae who are vegans. Then you get to list the
> > comprehensive figures of who is vegan, who is not, and why vegans
> > are a proper perecentage of "world class athletes".

>
> > It's your assertion. Good luck with that.

>
> <
> <My assertion was perfectly correct. I don't need to do any kind of
> <analysis of how vegans are represented among world-class atheletes in
> <order to justify that assertion.
>
> You are aware of the existence of quite a few unicorns, right?
> Or not?
>


Not.


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On Oct 11, 8:03*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 10/11/2012 1:27 AM, Rupert wrote:
>
> > On Oct 10, 5:53 pm, "Mr. N.A.Cho" > wrote:
> > You are aware of the existence of quite a few vegans who are world-
> > class athletes, right?

>
> No, and neither are you.


False.

> The percentage of "vegans" among world class
> athletes is even smaller than the already minuscule percentage they
> comprise in the general population.
>


So what? The claim was that there exist quite a few world-class vegan
athletes. The claim is correct.

> Here's a list by someone purporting to show vegetarian and 'vegan'
> "world class" athletes. *Note that the majority of them a) are
> vegetarian, not 'vegan', and b) are long retired from sports. *Note also
> that most of the ones who are retired were not vegetarian at all during
> their active sports careers.
>


Big deal. I correctly pointed out that there exist quite a few world-
class vegan athletes. This is relevant because it shows that not every
vegan is "sickly". I have already established that their claims that
veganism is unhealthy are unfounded.

> This is an example of your actively working to be a dope.


Wrong.
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On Oct 11, 8:56*pm, "Mr. N.A.Cho" > wrote:
> On Oct 11, 4:27*am, Rupert > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 10, 5:53*pm, "Mr. N.A.Cho" > wrote:

>
> > > On Oct 10, 11:47*am, "The Undead Edward M. Kennedy" >
> > > wrote:

>
> > > > "Rupert" > wrote

>
> > > > > > > > > > >> Check this out Its great
> > > > > > > > > > >>http://youtu.be/1LIyVBWaE_A

>
> > > > > > > > > > > It's shit. It's unpalatable shit.

>
> > > > > > > > > > > Why are "vegans" continually trying to make stuff look like and taste like meat? *Extremely* suspicious.

>
> > > > > > > > > > It's mostly for people who like meat but are trying to eat "healthy".

>
> > > > > > > > > > > No one likes "vegan" food - no one.

>
> > > > > > > > > > Some actually do, the problem is none of them are healthy.

>
> > > > > > > > > This isn't true. Just about everyone enjoys some food which is
> > > > > > > > > suitable for vegans. And a significant majority of those people are
> > > > > > > > > healthy. Furthermore a significant majority of those who consume an
> > > > > > > > > exclusively vegan diet are quite healthy. The American Dietetic
> > > > > > > > > Association has endorsed the position that appropriately-planned vegan
> > > > > > > > > diets are nutritionally adequate at all stages of life, and carry many
> > > > > > > > > significant health benefits.

>
> > > > > > > > > -----

>
> > > > > > > > > I was talking about vegans. While technically you and the ADD are
> > > > > > > > > correct, it's like claiming unicorn farts are part of your diet. Show
> > > > > > > > > me the vegan who can appropriate plan a diet at all stages of life,
> > > > > > > > > and I'll show you a unicorn because people need meat and dairy.

>
> > > > > > > > > --Tedward

>
> > > > > > > > You're an idiot.- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > > > > > <
> > > > > > > <I'd like to see the type of person that's a cradle to grave vegan.

>
> > > > > > > The kid would break his hip taking the first step...

>
> > > > > > > --Tedward

>
> > > > > > Two friends of mine have been bringing up their children as vegan
> > > > > > since birth (with the possible exception of breast milk, I am not
> > > > > > sure). The children are perfectly well. One of them is about seven
> > > > > > years old, I think.

>
> > > > > > -----

>
> > > > > > "exception of breast milk" indeed. A is A. Not A is not A.

>
> > > > > > You got two imaginary friends and Mr. Cho provided an actual picture.

>
> > > > > > --Tedward

>
> > > > > They are not imaginary friends. The fact that I don't have photos of
> > > > > them to hand is irrelevant; photos would prove nothing. An image of an
> > > > > anorexic person has no bearing on the issue.

>
> > > > > Your opinions are ignorant prejudices; you don't have any idea of what
> > > > > you're talking about. If you did you would provide some real evidence.

>
> > > > > -----

>
> > > > > Now you're resorting to Ad Hominid attacks, a sure sign you've lost
> > > > > the argument.

>
> > > > It's not an ad hominem argument. I am not basing my counter-argument
> > > > on the assertion that your opinions are ignorant prejudices, I have
> > > > given you plenty of good evidence to support my claims. The assertion
> > > > that your opinions are ignorant prejudices is just a factual
> > > > observation which I choose to put in there as well. It is quite
> > > > obviously true because you have shown yourself to be incapable of
> > > > producing any evidence to support your ill-founded beliefs.

>
> > > > If you insist on remaining ignorant then it's no skin off my nose; I
> > > > really couldn't care less.

>
> > > > -----

>
> > > > Evidence? *We've provided a ton. *You admit backhandedly that
> > > > children need milk. *We have canines. *We've all seen sickly looking
> > > > vegans (who BTW overlap with goths heavily).

>
> > > maybe I'm shallow, hell I'll admit that I probably am - but you don't
> > > see many (ANY?) decent looking vegans. *They all look pasty and
> > > malnourished. * ****, comparing them to goths is being kind, I'd
> > > compare them to zombies.

>
> > How would you know? Do you have some special faculty whereby whenever
> > you see someone walking down the street you can instantly tell whether
> > or not they are vegan?

>
> you can make educated guesses - gaunt, pasty-complexion, no muscle
> tone, stringy hair, veggie body odor, listless eyes, etc


But for all you know you might walk past plenty of people in the
street who lack those characteristics and yet are vegan. You don't
know. Also you must encounter people who are obese and you can make an
educated guess that they are not vegan.
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On Oct 11, 9:06*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 10/11/2012 11:56 AM, Mr. N.A.Cho wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 11, 4:27 am, Rupert > wrote:
> >> On Oct 10, 5:53 pm, "Mr. N.A.Cho" > wrote:

>
> >>> On Oct 10, 11:47 am, "The Undead Edward M. Kennedy" >
> >>> wrote:

>
> >>>> "Rupert" > wrote

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Check this out Its great
> >>>>>>>>>>>>http://youtu.be/1LIyVBWaE_A

>
> >>>>>>>>>>> It's shit. It's unpalatable shit.

>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Why are "vegans" continually trying to make stuff look like and taste like meat? *Extremely* suspicious.

>
> >>>>>>>>>> It's mostly for people who like meat but are trying to eat "healthy".

>
> >>>>>>>>>>> No one likes "vegan" food - no one.

>
> >>>>>>>>>> Some actually do, the problem is none of them are healthy.

>
> >>>>>>>>> This isn't true. Just about everyone enjoys some food which is
> >>>>>>>>> suitable for vegans. And a significant majority of those people are
> >>>>>>>>> healthy. Furthermore a significant majority of those who consume an
> >>>>>>>>> exclusively vegan diet are quite healthy. The American Dietetic
> >>>>>>>>> Association has endorsed the position that appropriately-planned vegan
> >>>>>>>>> diets are nutritionally adequate at all stages of life, and carry many
> >>>>>>>>> significant health benefits.

>
> >>>>>>>>> -----

>
> >>>>>>>>> I was talking about vegans. While technically you and the ADD are
> >>>>>>>>> correct, it's like claiming unicorn farts are part of your diet.. Show
> >>>>>>>>> me the vegan who can appropriate plan a diet at all stages of life,
> >>>>>>>>> and I'll show you a unicorn because people need meat and dairy.

>
> >>>>>>>>> --Tedward

>
> >>>>>>>> You're an idiot.- Hide quoted text -

>
> >>>>>>> <
> >>>>>>> <I'd like to see the type of person that's a cradle to grave vegan.

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On Oct 11, 9:11*pm, "Mr. N.A.Cho" > wrote:
> On Oct 11, 3:06*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 10/11/2012 11:56 AM, Mr. N.A.Cho wrote:

>
> > > On Oct 11, 4:27 am, Rupert > wrote:
> > >> On Oct 10, 5:53 pm, "Mr. N.A.Cho" > wrote:

>
> > >>> On Oct 10, 11:47 am, "The Undead Edward M. Kennedy" >
> > >>> wrote:

>
> > >>>> "Rupert" > wrote

>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Check this out Its great
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>http://youtu.be/1LIyVBWaE_A

>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> It's shit. It's unpalatable shit.

>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> Why are "vegans" continually trying to make stuff look like and taste like meat? *Extremely* suspicious.

>
> > >>>>>>>>>> It's mostly for people who like meat but are trying to eat "healthy".

>
> > >>>>>>>>>>> No one likes "vegan" food - no one.

>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Some actually do, the problem is none of them are healthy.

>
> > >>>>>>>>> This isn't true. Just about everyone enjoys some food which is
> > >>>>>>>>> suitable for vegans. And a significant majority of those people are
> > >>>>>>>>> healthy. Furthermore a significant majority of those who consume an
> > >>>>>>>>> exclusively vegan diet are quite healthy. The American Dietetic
> > >>>>>>>>> Association has endorsed the position that appropriately-planned vegan
> > >>>>>>>>> diets are nutritionally adequate at all stages of life, and carry many
> > >>>>>>>>> significant health benefits.

>
> > >>>>>>>>> -----

>
> > >>>>>>>>> I was talking about vegans. While technically you and the ADD are
> > >>>>>>>>> correct, it's like claiming unicorn farts are part of your diet. Show
> > >>>>>>>>> me the vegan who can appropriate plan a diet at all stages of life,
> > >>>>>>>>> and I'll show you a unicorn because people need meat and dairy.

>
> > >>>>>>>>> --Tedward

>
> > >>>>>>>> You're an idiot.- Hide quoted text -

>
> > >>>>>>> <
> > >>>>>>> <I'd like to see the type of person that's a cradle to grave vegan.

>
> > >>>>>>> The kid would break his hip taking the first step...

>
> > >>>>>>> --Tedward

>
> > >>>>>> Two friends of mine have been bringing up their children as vegan
> > >>>>>> since birth (with the possible exception of breast milk, I am not
> > >>>>>> sure). The children are perfectly well. One of them is about seven
> > >>>>>> years old, I think.

>
> > >>>>>> -----

>
> > >>>>>> "exception of breast milk" indeed. A is A. Not A is not A.

>
> > >>>>>> You got two imaginary friends and Mr. Cho provided an actual picture.

>
> > >>>>>> --Tedward

>
> > >>>>> They are not imaginary friends. The fact that I don't have photos of
> > >>>>> them to hand is irrelevant; photos would prove nothing. An image of an
> > >>>>> anorexic person has no bearing on the issue.

>
> > >>>>> Your opinions are ignorant prejudices; you don't have any idea of what
> > >>>>> you're talking about. If you did you would provide some real evidence.

>
> > >>>>> -----

>
> > >>>>> Now you're resorting to Ad Hominid attacks, a sure sign you've lost
> > >>>>> the argument.

>
> > >>>> It's not an ad hominem argument. I am not basing my counter-argument
> > >>>> on the assertion that your opinions are ignorant prejudices, I have
> > >>>> given you plenty of good evidence to support my claims. The assertion
> > >>>> that your opinions are ignorant prejudices is just a factual
> > >>>> observation which I choose to put in there as well. It is quite
> > >>>> obviously true because you have shown yourself to be incapable of
> > >>>> producing any evidence to support your ill-founded beliefs.

>
> > >>>> If you insist on remaining ignorant then it's no skin off my nose; I
> > >>>> really couldn't care less.

>
> > >>>> -----

>
> > >>>> Evidence? *We've provided a ton. *You admit backhandedly that
> > >>>> children need milk. *We have canines. *We've all seen sickly looking
> > >>>> vegans (who BTW overlap with goths heavily).

>
> > >>> maybe I'm shallow, hell I'll admit that I probably am - but you don't
> > >>> see many (ANY?) decent looking vegans. *They all look pasty and
> > >>> malnourished. * ****, comparing them to goths is being kind, I'd
> > >>> compare them to zombies.

>
> > >> How would you know? Do you have some special faculty whereby whenever
> > >> you see someone walking down the street you can instantly tell whether
> > >> or not they are vegan?

>
> > > you can make educated guesses - gaunt, pasty-complexion, no muscle
> > > tone, stringy hair, veggie body odor, listless eyes, etc

>
> > I think it's obviously possible to make some wrong guesses, just as it's
> > possible to guess wrong about who's a queer and who isn't, but I think
> > it's not all that hard to be right more often than not. *The reason is
> > that there are a lot of other "tells" available. *All "vegans" are
> > left-wingers, although not all left-wingers are "vegans"; but if you see
> > a car plastered with a lot of ecotopian slogans and other left-wing
> > blabber, there's a pretty good chance that the owner is at least an
> > extreme vegetarian, if not "vegan". *Also, if the driver gets out of the
> > car and is wearing Birkenstocks, that's another good "tell".- Hide quoted text -

>
> > - Show quoted text -

>
> I think being a vegan takes a tremendous toll on one's appearance, at
> least in every single instance I've seen.


You haven't done any scientifically valid investigation of the matter.
You're not in a position to know.
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Default DOZENS OF WORLD CLASS ATHLETIC VEGANS SUPPORT ME IN EMAIL

None of them, unfortunately, will actually admit to their existence on
the usenet.

--Tedward




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On 10/12/2012 1:12 AM, Rupert wrote:
> On Oct 11, 11:02 pm, dh@. wrote:


>>> Let's be clear about what you think the upside would be. You think
>>> that I would be increasing the expected number of cows who come into
>>> existence and lead fairly happy lives, as well as reducing my
>>> contribution to collateral deaths caused by plant-based agriculture,
>>> and that would be a good thing? Is that the story?

>>
>> If you did it right, yes. If you didn't, no. If you bought a veal calf that
>> was soon to be slaughtered and made a deal with a farmer to raise it for you for
>> two years with no grain, then you had it humanely slaughtered and you ate that
>> instead of your soy stuff you would reduce your contribution plus benefit a
>> livestock animal in the biggest way.

>
> So how much do you suppose that would cost?


Why don't you ask ****wit why he doesn't do that himself? He doesn't.
He doesn't take *any* measures to ensure that the animals he eats had
<scoff> "decent lives of possitive [sic] value." He has told us
repeatedly he doesn't care and can't be bothered.

It's not out of consideration for porcupines
that we don't raise them for food. It's because
they would be a pain in the ass to raise. We
don't raise cattle out of consideration for them
either, but because they're fairly easy to
raise.
Goo/****wit David Harrison - Sep 26, 2005

I am not an extremist about it, and if I thought
that all of the animals I eat had terrible
lives, I would still eat meat. That is not
because I don't care about them at all, but I
would just ignore their suffering.
Goo/****wit David Harrison - Nov 29, 1999

I would eat animals even if I thought that it was
cruel to them, and even if they gained nothing from
the deal. Is that what you want me to say? It is true.
But that doesn't mean that I can't still like the animals
also....
Goo/****wit David Harrison - Sept 23, 1999

I don't try to eat ethically, because I don't really care enough
to make the effort.
Goo/****wit David Harrison - July 31, 2003

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On 10/12/2012 1:16 AM, Rupert wrote:
> On Oct 11, 8:03 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
>> On 10/11/2012 1:27 AM, Rupert wrote:
>>
>>> On Oct 10, 5:53 pm, "Mr. N.A.Cho" > wrote:
>>> You are aware of the existence of quite a few vegans who are world-
>>> class athletes, right?

>>
>> No, and neither are you.

>
> False.


No, it's true - you aren't aware of "quite a few 'vegans' who are
world-class athletes." You know you aren't.


>> The percentage of "vegans" among world class
>> athletes is even smaller than the already minuscule percentage they
>> comprise in the general population.
>>

>
> So what? The claim was that there exist quite a few world-class vegan
> athletes. The claim is correct.


False.


>> Here's a list by someone purporting to show vegetarian and 'vegan'
>> "world class" athletes. Note that the majority of them a) are
>> vegetarian, not 'vegan', and b) are long retired from sports. Note also
>> that most of the ones who are retired were not vegetarian at all during
>> their active sports careers.
>>

>
> Big deal. I correctly pointed out that there exist quite a few world-
> class vegan athletes.


No, you did not "correctly point out" any such thing, because the claim
is a lie.

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On 10/12/2012 1:18 AM, Rupert wrote:
> On Oct 11, 9:06 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
>> On 10/11/2012 11:56 AM, Mr. N.A.Cho wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 11, 4:27 am, Rupert > wrote:
>>>> On Oct 10, 5:53 pm, "Mr. N.A.Cho" > wrote:

>>
>>>>> On Oct 10, 11:47 am, "The Undead Edward M. Kennedy" >
>>>>> wrote:

>>
>>>>>> "Rupert" > wrote

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Check this out Its great
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://youtu.be/1LIyVBWaE_A

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's shit. It's unpalatable shit.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why are "vegans" continually trying to make stuff look like and taste like meat? *Extremely* suspicious.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's mostly for people who like meat but are trying to eat "healthy".

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No one likes "vegan" food - no one.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Some actually do, the problem is none of them are healthy.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This isn't true. Just about everyone enjoys some food which is
>>>>>>>>>>> suitable for vegans. And a significant majority of those people are
>>>>>>>>>>> healthy. Furthermore a significant majority of those who consume an
>>>>>>>>>>> exclusively vegan diet are quite healthy. The American Dietetic
>>>>>>>>>>> Association has endorsed the position that appropriately-planned vegan
>>>>>>>>>>> diets are nutritionally adequate at all stages of life, and carry many
>>>>>>>>>>> significant health benefits.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I was talking about vegans. While technically you and the ADD are
>>>>>>>>>>> correct, it's like claiming unicorn farts are part of your diet. Show
>>>>>>>>>>> me the vegan who can appropriate plan a diet at all stages of life,
>>>>>>>>>>> and I'll show you a unicorn because people need meat and dairy.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --Tedward

>>
>>>>>>>>>> You're an idiot.- Hide quoted text -

>>
>>>>>>>>> <
>>>>>>>>> <I'd like to see the type of person that's a cradle to grave vegan.

>>
>>>>>>>>> The kid would break his hip taking the first step...

>>
>>>>>>>>> --Tedward

>>
>>>>>>>> Two friends of mine have been bringing up their children as vegan
>>>>>>>> since birth (with the possible exception of breast milk, I am not
>>>>>>>> sure). The children are perfectly well. One of them is about seven
>>>>>>>> years old, I think.

>>
>>>>>>>> -----

>>
>>>>>>>> "exception of breast milk" indeed. A is A. Not A is not A.

>>
>>>>>>>> You got two imaginary friends and Mr. Cho provided an actual picture.

>>
>>>>>>>> --Tedward

>>
>>>>>>> They are not imaginary friends. The fact that I don't have photos of
>>>>>>> them to hand is irrelevant; photos would prove nothing. An image of an
>>>>>>> anorexic person has no bearing on the issue.

>>
>>>>>>> Your opinions are ignorant prejudices; you don't have any idea of what
>>>>>>> you're talking about. If you did you would provide some real evidence.

>>
>>>>>>> -----

>>
>>>>>>> Now you're resorting to Ad Hominid attacks, a sure sign you've lost
>>>>>>> the argument.

>>
>>>>>> It's not an ad hominem argument. I am not basing my counter-argument
>>>>>> on the assertion that your opinions are ignorant prejudices, I have
>>>>>> given you plenty of good evidence to support my claims. The assertion
>>>>>> that your opinions are ignorant prejudices is just a factual
>>>>>> observation which I choose to put in there as well. It is quite
>>>>>> obviously true because you have shown yourself to be incapable of
>>>>>> producing any evidence to support your ill-founded beliefs.

>>
>>>>>> If you insist on remaining ignorant then it's no skin off my nose; I
>>>>>> really couldn't care less.

>>
>>>>>> -----

>>
>>>>>> Evidence? We've provided a ton. You admit backhandedly that
>>>>>> children need milk. We have canines. We've all seen sickly looking
>>>>>> vegans (who BTW overlap with goths heavily).

>>
>>>>> maybe I'm shallow, hell I'll admit that I probably am - but you don't
>>>>> see many (ANY?) decent looking vegans. They all look pasty and
>>>>> malnourished. ****, comparing them to goths is being kind, I'd
>>>>> compare them to zombies.

>>
>>>> How would you know? Do you have some special faculty whereby whenever
>>>> you see someone walking down the street you can instantly tell whether
>>>> or not they are vegan?

>>
>>> you can make educated guesses - gaunt, pasty-complexion, no muscle
>>> tone, stringy hair, veggie body odor, listless eyes, etc

>>
>> I think it's obviously possible to make some wrong guesses, just as it's
>> possible to guess wrong about who's a queer and who isn't, but I think
>> it's not all that hard to be right more often than not.

>
> You don't really have any kind of rational foundation for that
> opinion.


Of course I have.

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Default DOZENS OF WORLD CLASS ATHLETIC VEGANS SUPPORT ME IN EMAIL

On 10/12/2012 7:17 AM, The Undead Edward M. Kennedy wrote:
> None of them, unfortunately, will actually admit to their existence on
> the usenet.


Good one!

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On Oct 12, 4:17*pm, "The Undead Edward M. Kennedy" > wrote:
> None of them, unfortunately, will actually admit to their existence on
> the usenet.
>
> --Tedward


It would be very easy for you to verify the existence of many world-
class vegan athletes if you wished to. Google is your friend.


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On Oct 12, 4:44*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 10/12/2012 1:16 AM, Rupert wrote:
>
> > On Oct 11, 8:03 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> >> On 10/11/2012 1:27 AM, Rupert wrote:

>
> >>> On Oct 10, 5:53 pm, "Mr. N.A.Cho" > wrote:
> >>> You are aware of the existence of quite a few vegans who are world-
> >>> class athletes, right?

>
> >> No, and neither are you.

>
> > False.

>
> No, it's true - you aren't aware of "quite a few 'vegans' who are
> world-class athletes." *You know you aren't.
>


How did you come to this conclusion?

> >> The percentage of "vegans" among world class
> >> athletes is even smaller than the already minuscule percentage they
> >> comprise in the general population.

>
> > So what? The claim was that there exist quite a few world-class vegan
> > athletes. The claim is correct.

>
> False.
>


http://www.greatveganathletes.com/

> >> Here's a list by someone purporting to show vegetarian and 'vegan'
> >> "world class" athletes. *Note that the majority of them a) are
> >> vegetarian, not 'vegan', and b) are long retired from sports. *Note also
> >> that most of the ones who are retired were not vegetarian at all during
> >> their active sports careers.

>
> > Big deal. I correctly pointed out that there exist quite a few world-
> > class vegan athletes.

>
> No, you did not "correctly point out" any such thing, because the claim
> is a lie.


Wrong.
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On Oct 12, 4:45*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 10/12/2012 1:18 AM, Rupert wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 11, 9:06 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> >> On 10/11/2012 11:56 AM, Mr. N.A.Cho wrote:

>
> >>> On Oct 11, 4:27 am, Rupert > wrote:
> >>>> On Oct 10, 5:53 pm, "Mr. N.A.Cho" > wrote:

>
> >>>>> On Oct 10, 11:47 am, "The Undead Edward M. Kennedy" >
> >>>>> wrote:

>
> >>>>>> "Rupert" > wrote

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Check this out Its great
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>http://youtu.be/1LIyVBWaE_A

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It's shit. It's unpalatable shit.

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Why are "vegans" continually trying to make stuff look like and taste like meat? *Extremely* suspicious.

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> It's mostly for people who like meat but are trying to eat "healthy".

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> No one likes "vegan" food - no one.

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Some actually do, the problem is none of them are healthy.

>
> >>>>>>>>>>> This isn't true. Just about everyone enjoys some food which is
> >>>>>>>>>>> suitable for vegans. And a significant majority of those people are
> >>>>>>>>>>> healthy. Furthermore a significant majority of those who consume an
> >>>>>>>>>>> exclusively vegan diet are quite healthy. The American Dietetic
> >>>>>>>>>>> Association has endorsed the position that appropriately-planned vegan
> >>>>>>>>>>> diets are nutritionally adequate at all stages of life, and carry many
> >>>>>>>>>>> significant health benefits.

>
> >>>>>>>>>>> -----

>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I was talking about vegans. While technically you and the ADD are
> >>>>>>>>>>> correct, it's like claiming unicorn farts are part of your diet. Show
> >>>>>>>>>>> me the vegan who can appropriate plan a diet at all stages of life,
> >>>>>>>>>>> and I'll show you a unicorn because people need meat and dairy.

>
> >>>>>>>>>>> --Tedward

>
> >>>>>>>>>> You're an idiot.- Hide quoted text -

>
> >>>>>>>>> <
> >>>>>>>>> <I'd like to see the type of person that's a cradle to grave vegan.

>
> >>>>>>>>> The kid would break his hip taking the first step...

>
> >>>>>>>>> --Tedward

>
> >>>>>>>> Two friends of mine have been bringing up their children as vegan
> >>>>>>>> since birth (with the possible exception of breast milk, I am not
> >>>>>>>> sure). The children are perfectly well. One of them is about seven
> >>>>>>>> years old, I think.

>
> >>>>>>>> -----

>
> >>>>>>>> "exception of breast milk" indeed. A is A. Not A is not A.

>
> >>>>>>>> You got two imaginary friends and Mr. Cho provided an actual picture.

>
> >>>>>>>> --Tedward

>
> >>>>>>> They are not imaginary friends. The fact that I don't have photos of
> >>>>>>> them to hand is irrelevant; photos would prove nothing. An image of an
> >>>>>>> anorexic person has no bearing on the issue.

>
> >>>>>>> Your opinions are ignorant prejudices; you don't have any idea of what
> >>>>>>> you're talking about. If you did you would provide some real evidence.

>
> >>>>>>> -----

>
> >>>>>>> Now you're resorting to Ad Hominid attacks, a sure sign you've lost
> >>>>>>> the argument.

>
> >>>>>> It's not an ad hominem argument. I am not basing my counter-argument
> >>>>>> on the assertion that your opinions are ignorant prejudices, I have
> >>>>>> given you plenty of good evidence to support my claims. The assertion
> >>>>>> that your opinions are ignorant prejudices is just a factual
> >>>>>> observation which I choose to put in there as well. It is quite
> >>>>>> obviously true because you have shown yourself to be incapable of
> >>>>>> producing any evidence to support your ill-founded beliefs.

>
> >>>>>> If you insist on remaining ignorant then it's no skin off my nose; I
> >>>>>> really couldn't care less.

>
> >>>>>> -----

>
> >>>>>> Evidence? *We've provided a ton. *You admit backhandedly that
> >>>>>> children need milk. *We have canines. *We've all seen sickly looking
> >>>>>> vegans (who BTW overlap with goths heavily).

>
> >>>>> maybe I'm shallow, hell I'll admit that I probably am - but you don't
> >>>>> see many (ANY?) decent looking vegans. *They all look pasty and
> >>>>> malnourished. * ****, comparing them to goths is being kind, I'd
> >>>>> compare them to zombies.

>
> >>>> How would you know? Do you have some special faculty whereby whenever
> >>>> you see someone walking down the street you can instantly tell whether
> >>>> or not they are vegan?

>
> >>> you can make educated guesses - gaunt, pasty-complexion, no muscle
> >>> tone, stringy hair, veggie body odor, listless eyes, etc

>
> >> I think it's obviously possible to make some wrong guesses, just as it's
> >> possible to guess wrong about who's a queer and who isn't, but I think
> >> it's not all that hard to be right more often than not.

>
> > You don't really have any kind of rational foundation for that
> > opinion.

>
> Of course I have.


What is it?
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On Oct 12, 4:47*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 10/12/2012 7:17 AM, The Undead Edward M. Kennedy wrote:
>
> > None of them, unfortunately, will actually admit to their existence on
> > the usenet.

>
> Good one!


Seemed pretty lame to me.
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On Oct 12, 4:43*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 10/12/2012 1:12 AM, Rupert wrote:
>
> > On Oct 11, 11:02 pm, dh@. wrote:
> >>> Let's be clear about what you think the upside would be. You think
> >>> that I would be increasing the expected number of cows who come into
> >>> existence and lead fairly happy lives, as well as reducing my
> >>> contribution to collateral deaths caused by plant-based agriculture,
> >>> and that would be a good thing? Is that the story?

>
> >> * * *If you did it right, yes. If you didn't, no. If you bought a veal calf that
> >> was soon to be slaughtered and made a deal with a farmer to raise it for you for
> >> two years with no grain, then you had it humanely slaughtered and you ate that
> >> instead of your soy stuff you would reduce your contribution plus benefit a
> >> livestock animal in the biggest way.

>
> > So how much do you suppose that would cost?

>
> Why don't you ask ****wit why he doesn't do that himself? *He doesn't.
> He doesn't take *any* measures to ensure that the animals he eats had
> <scoff> "decent lives of possitive [sic] value." *He has told us
> repeatedly he doesn't care and can't be bothered.
>


Interesting.
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Default DOZENS OF WORLD CLASS ATHLETIC VEGANS SUPPORT ME IN EMAIL

"Rupert" > wrote

> None of them, unfortunately, will actually admit to their existence on
> the usenet.

<
<It would be very easy for you to verify the existence of many world-
<class vegan athletes if you wished to. Google is your friend.

It would be very easy for you to verify the existence of many world-
class vegan athletes if you wished to. But, Google is not your friend,
because you are doucebag liar.

--Tedward




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On Oct 12, 5:35*pm, "The Undead Edward M. Kennedy" > wrote:
> "Rupert" > wrote
>
> > None of them, unfortunately, will actually admit to their existence on
> > the usenet.

>
> <
> <It would be very easy for you to verify the existence of many world-
> <class vegan athletes if you wished to. Google is your friend.
>
> It would be very easy for you to verify the existence of many world-
> class vegan athletes if you wished to. But, Google is not your friend,
> because you are doucebag liar.
>


Groundless accusations of lying are unethical.

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On 10/12/2012 7:48 AM, Rupert wrote:
> On Oct 12, 4:17 pm, "The Undead Edward M. Kennedy" > wrote:
>> None of them, unfortunately, will actually admit to their existence on
>> the usenet.
>>
>> --Tedward

>
> It would be very easy for you to verify the existence of many world-
> class vegan athletes if you wished to. Google is your friend.


Ha ha ha ha ha! It would be very easy for *you* simply to list the
names of 50-100 of them, if there really were "quite a few" such who are
*currently* "world-class" athletes who are also "vegan". I *did*
attempt to Google such a list, and as I already posted, a) most of them
are not "vegan" but rather some degree of vegetarian, and b) most of
them weren't even vegetarian during their years as active "world-class"
athletes.

Your claim is bullshit.

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On 10/12/2012 7:50 AM, Rupert wrote:
> On Oct 12, 4:44 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
>> On 10/12/2012 1:16 AM, Rupert wrote:
>>
>>> On Oct 11, 8:03 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
>>>> On 10/11/2012 1:27 AM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>> On Oct 10, 5:53 pm, "Mr. N.A.Cho" > wrote:
>>>>> You are aware of the existence of quite a few vegans who are world-
>>>>> class athletes, right?

>>
>>>> No, and neither are you.

>>
>>> False.

>>
>> No, it's true - you aren't aware of "quite a few 'vegans' who are
>> world-class athletes." You know you aren't.
>>

>
> How did you come to this conclusion?
>
>>>> The percentage of "vegans" among world class
>>>> athletes is even smaller than the already minuscule percentage they
>>>> comprise in the general population.

>>
>>> So what? The claim was that there exist quite a few world-class vegan
>>> athletes. The claim is correct.

>>
>> False.
>>

>
> http://www.greatveganathletes.com/


Ha ha ha ha ha! I went through four pages of that shit before quitting
in disgust. There was exactly *ONE* person, Carl Lewis, who ever had a
claim to being a "world class" athlete, and I do not believe he was
"vegan" when he was competing; that came after he hung up his cleats.

As for others on the list, there are a lot of body builders - they're
not athletes - as well as a billiards or snooker player and a race car
driver, who also aren't athletes.

That list is shit.


>>>> Here's a list by someone purporting to show vegetarian and 'vegan'
>>>> "world class" athletes. Note that the majority of them a) are
>>>> vegetarian, not 'vegan', and b) are long retired from sports. Note also
>>>> that most of the ones who are retired were not vegetarian at all during
>>>> their active sports careers.

>>
>>> Big deal. I correctly pointed out that there exist quite a few world-
>>> class vegan athletes.

>>
>> No, you did not "correctly point out" any such thing, because the claim
>> is a lie.

>
> Wrong.


No, right - your list is shit.

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On 10/12/2012 7:52 AM, Rupert wrote:
> On Oct 12, 4:47 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
>> On 10/12/2012 7:17 AM, The Undead Edward M. Kennedy wrote:
>>
>>> None of them, unfortunately, will actually admit to their existence on
>>> the usenet.

>>
>> Good one!

>
> Seemed pretty lame to me.


It was a good one. You have a cardboard palate.

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On Oct 12, 6:14*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 10/12/2012 7:50 AM, Rupert wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 12, 4:44 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> >> On 10/12/2012 1:16 AM, Rupert wrote:

>
> >>> On Oct 11, 8:03 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> >>>> On 10/11/2012 1:27 AM, Rupert wrote:

>
> >>>>> On Oct 10, 5:53 pm, "Mr. N.A.Cho" > wrote:
> >>>>> You are aware of the existence of quite a few vegans who are world-
> >>>>> class athletes, right?

>
> >>>> No, and neither are you.

>
> >>> False.

>
> >> No, it's true - you aren't aware of "quite a few 'vegans' who are
> >> world-class athletes." *You know you aren't.

>
> > How did you come to this conclusion?

>
> >>>> The percentage of "vegans" among world class
> >>>> athletes is even smaller than the already minuscule percentage they
> >>>> comprise in the general population.

>
> >>> So what? The claim was that there exist quite a few world-class vegan
> >>> athletes. The claim is correct.

>
> >> False.

>
> >http://www.greatveganathletes.com/

>
> Ha ha ha ha ha! *I went through four pages of that shit before quitting
> in disgust. *There was exactly *ONE* person, Carl Lewis, who ever had a
> claim to being a "world class" athlete, and I do not believe he was
> "vegan" when he was competing; that came after he hung up his cleats.
>


From the Wikipedia article: "Lewis is vegan. Lewis credits his
outstanding 1991 results in part to the vegan diet he adopted in 1990,
aged thirty. He has claimed it is better suited to him because he can
eat a larger quantity without affecting his athleticism[86][87] and he
believes that switching to a vegan diet can lead to improved athletic
performance."

Then we have Weia Reibound: "Weia Reibound is a Dutch veteran athlete
who has set ten world records".

http://boldvegan.com/world-class-veg...e-thunk-it-eh/

> As for others on the list, there are a lot of body builders - they're
> not athletes - as well as a billiards or snooker player and a race car
> driver, who also aren't athletes.
>
> That list is shit.
>
> >>>> Here's a list by someone purporting to show vegetarian and 'vegan'
> >>>> "world class" athletes. *Note that the majority of them a) are
> >>>> vegetarian, not 'vegan', and b) are long retired from sports. *Note also
> >>>> that most of the ones who are retired were not vegetarian at all during
> >>>> their active sports careers.

>
> >>> Big deal. I correctly pointed out that there exist quite a few world-
> >>> class vegan athletes.

>
> >> No, you did not "correctly point out" any such thing, because the claim
> >> is a lie.

>
> > Wrong.

>
> No, right - your list is shit.


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