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Default "Speciesism" - nothing wrong with it

****wit David Harrison, who has *never* posed a challenge to anyone -
because he is mentally incapable of it - lied:

>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You don't consider the lives of animals. You pretend you do, but you don't. Everyone can see that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "The meaningless fact-lette that farm animals "get to
>>>>>>> experience life" deserves no consideration" - Prof. George Plimpton
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's a true statement I made.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a lie of course
>>>>
>>>> It's not a lie.
>>>
>>> if you think you can explain how you want people to think

>>
>> That's another ****witted cracker sentence construction, Goo. Everyone laughs at you for your ****witted "explain how you want people to think" bullshit, ****wit. It's just bullshit; no content at all.
>>
>> "Getting to experience life" deserves no ethical consideration, ****wit - none. I have proved this.

>
> if you think you can explain


Stupid Goo ****wit David Harrison crackerism; nothing more.
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Default "Speciesism" - nothing wrong with it

On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:07:00 -0700, Goo wrote:

>On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 16:00:46 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 07 Jun 2012 14:22:36 -0700, Goo wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 07 Jun 2012 13:21:36 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 06 Jun 2012, Goo puled pathetically:
>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, 06 Jun 2012 15:36:06 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Thu, 31 May 2012 16:40:32 -0700, Goo wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Thu, 31 May 2012 18:03:46 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Tue, 29 May 2012 17:35:13 -0700, Goo puled:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>You d
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "The meaningless fact-lette that farm animals "get to
>>>>>>>>experience life" deserves no consideration" - Goo
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>That's a true statement I made.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's a lie of course Goo, but you tell it none the less. You also insist
>>>>>>that it's true REGARDLESS of quality of life Goob, showing that quality of life
>>>>>>means nothing TO YOU. But Goober if you think you can explain how you want
>>>>>>people to think quality of life does mean something to you while at the same
>>>>>>time it means nothing to you, then try to explain HOW you want people to try to
>>>>>>believe something so idiotic.
>>>>>
>>>>>It's not a lie.
>>>>
>>>> Goober if you think you can explain how you want people to think quality of
>>>>life does mean something to you while at the same time it means nothing to you,
>>>>then try to explain HOW you want people to try to believe something so idiotic.
>>>
>>>That's ano

>>
>> Goober if you think you can explain how you want people to think quality of
>>life does mean something to you while at the same time it means nothing to you,
>>then try to explain HOW you want people to try to believe something so idiotic

>
>Stupid Goo


LOL! You sure are stupid Goo. You can't even make it appear that quality of
life for livestock means anything to you, though you have certainly made it
known that it does not. You have outstupided yourself yet again, you stupid
STUPID Goober.
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Default "Speciesism" - nothing wrong with it

****wit David Harrison, who has *never* posed a challenge to anyone -
because he is mentally incapable of it - lied:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You don't consider the lives of animals. You pretend you do, but you don't. Everyone can see that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "The meaningless fact-lette that farm animals "get to
>>>>>>>>> experience life" deserves no consideration" - Prof. George Plimpton
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's a true statement I made.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's a lie of
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's not a lie.
>>>>>
>>>>> if you think you can explain how you want people to think
>>>>
>>>> That's another ****witted cracker sentence construction, Goo. Everyone laughs at you for your ****witted "explain how you want people to think" bullshit, ****wit. It's just bullshit; no content at all.
>>>>
>>>> "Getting to experience life" deserves no ethical consideration, ****wit - none. I have proved this.
>>>
>>> if you think you can explain how you want people to think

>>
>> Stupid Goo ****wit David Harrison crackerism; nothing more.

>
> I sure am stupid, George.


I know, ****wit. We all know.
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Default "Speciesism" - nothing wrong with it

On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 20:19:07 -0700, Goo agreed:

>On Thu, 14 Jun 2012 16:22:16 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 14:07:00 -0700, Goo wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 13 Jun 2012 16:00:46 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 07 Jun 2012 14:22:36 -0700, Goo wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 07 Jun 2012 13:21:36 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, 06 Jun 2012, Goo puled pathetically:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Wed, 06 Jun 2012 15:36:06 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Thu, 31 May 2012 16:40:32 -0700, Goo wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On Thu, 31 May 2012 18:03:46 -0400, dh@. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On Tue, 29 May 2012 17:35:13 -0700, Goo puled:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>You d
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "The meaningless fact-lette that farm animals "get to
>>>>>>>>>>experience life" deserves no consideration" - Goo
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>That's a true statement I made.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's a lie of course Goo, but you tell it none the less. You also insist
>>>>>>>>that it's true REGARDLESS of quality of life Goob, showing that quality of life
>>>>>>>>means nothing TO YOU. But Goober if you think you can explain how you want
>>>>>>>>people to think quality of life does mean something to you while at the same
>>>>>>>>time it means nothing to you, then try to explain HOW you want people to try to
>>>>>>>>believe something so idiotic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It's not a lie.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Goober if you think you can explain how you want people to think quality of
>>>>>>life does mean something to you while at the same time it means nothing to you,
>>>>>>then try to explain HOW you want people to try to believe something so idiotic.
>>>>>
>>>>>That's ano
>>>>
>>>> Goober if you think you can explain how you want people to think quality of
>>>>life does mean something to you while at the same time it means nothing to you,
>>>>then try to explain HOW you want people to try to believe something so idiotic
>>>
>>>Stupid Goo

>>
>> LOL! You sure are stupid Goo. You can't even make it appear that quality of
>>life for livestock means anything to you, though you have certainly made it
>>known that it does not. You have outstupided yourself yet again, you stupid
>>STUPID Goober.

>
>I know, ****wit. We all know.


LOL...anyone reading your replies should be able to see how you outstupided
yourself again Goob, and I hope they find it at least partly as amusing as I do
including people who aren't as amused by your stupidity in general as I am.
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Default "Speciesism" - nothing wrong with it

Goo - ****wit David Harrison, aka Bumble**** - lied:

>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You don't consider the lives of animals. You pretend you do, but you don't. Everyone can see that.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "The m
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You don't consider the lives of animals. You pretend you do, but you don't. Everyone can see that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's not a lie.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> if you think you can explain how you want people to think
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's another ****witted cracker sentence construction, Goo. Everyone laughs at you for your ****witted "explain how you want people to think" bullshit, ****wit. It's just bullshit; no content at all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Getting to experience life" deserves no ethical consideration, ****wit - none. I have proved this.
>>>>>
>>>>> if you think you can explain how you want people to think
>>>>
>>>> Stupid Goo ****wit David Harrison crackerism; nothing more.
>>>
>>> I sure am stupid, George.

>>
>> I know, ****wit. We all know.

>
> anyone reading


knows you're stupid and that you *ADMIT* to being stupid, you pig-****er.


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Default "Speciesism" - nothing wrong with it

On 4/11/2012 8:46 PM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 11, 8:37 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
>> On 4/11/2012 10:40 AM, Rupert wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 11, 8:51 am, George > wrote:
>>>> On 4/10/2012 10:50 PM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>> On Apr 11, 2:16 am, George > wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/10/2012 3:54 PM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 10, 3:50 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/10/2012 12:35 AM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 9, 10:41 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/9/2012 12:04 PM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 9, 6:42 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/9/2012 9:15 AM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 9, 4:31 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/8/2012 11:43 PM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 9, 6:44 am, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/8/2012 9:00 PM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 8, 7:06 pm, wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Animal rights activists" - actually, most are "passivists", doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nothing more than talk - commonly invoke "speciesism" to try to explain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why human use of animals is wrong. This is meaningless. First of all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all species are "speciesist": the members of all species pursue their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interests, as individual entities and as members of their species, with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no regard for the interests of other species.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some nonhuman animals do show concern for the interests of members of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other species, and in any case there is no good reason why we should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use the behaviour of nonhuman animals as a moral guide.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No other species show *moral* concern for interests of other species'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> members.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The point of the post is that those who decry "speciesism" are relying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on it to say that humans should not engage in it.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, they are not.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, they are. You are requiring humans to behave a particular way due
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to their species. That's "speciesism" (an ugly, contrived word, in fact
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not even a real word at all, as every spell-checker in existence
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> demonstrates by flagging it as not a word.)

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, they're not requiring that humans behave a particular way due to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their species. Saying that only moral agents have moral obligations is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not speciesism.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not what you're doing.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why not?

>>
>>>>>>>>>> You tell us what your motive is.

>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't understand this.

>>
>>>>>> Yes, you do.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The "ar" passivists
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot give a coherent explanation of why "speciesism" is wrong, except
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by invoking it themselves. Only humans are capable of conceiving of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interests of members of other species. To say that we /must/ is itself
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "speciesist."

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's not.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You obviously don't understand what speciesism is.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do understand full well what it is. In fact, it's sophistry.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Secondly, the only way the passivists attempt to show that it's wrong is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by comparison with other "isms" that they claim, without explanation,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are inherently and "obviously" wrong: racism, sexism, "heterosexism",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc. This comparison is cynical and dishonest. First, a discussion of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *why* racism and sexism are (or might be) wrong quickly reveals that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they comprise negative thoughts and actions against people of the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> species who share the same morally relevant characteristics as those who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are doing the discriminating. A person's race or sex has no bearing on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his ability to participate in the moral community of humanity.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are plenty of intellectually disabled humans who cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> participate in the moral comunnity of humanity to

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "marginal cases" doesn't work. It's useless.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not?

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've explained that to you before, too. The argument from species
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> normality defeats it, among other things.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The argument from species normality is flawed.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it isn't. It fully defeats the fake argument from marginal cases.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Wrong.

>>
>>>>>>>>>> Nope; right.

>>
>>>>>>>>> What exactly are the premises of the argument from species normality?

>>
>>>>>>>> Above you wrote, "The argument from species normality is flawed." Do
>>>>>>>> you mean to say you wrote that without knowing what the premises are?
>>>>>>>> That seems very reckless and irresponsible.

>>
>>>>>>> I believe that one of the premises of the argument from species
>>>>>>> normality is that the moral consideration an individual should get is
>>>>>>> determined by what characteristics are typical for that individual's
>>>>>>> species, and I believe that it is possible to construct thought-
>>>>>>> experiments which show this premise to be problematic.

>>
>>>>>> Have a go at it.

>>
>>>>> Do you know the thought-experiment of the chimpanzee who can
>>>>> understand advanced mathematics?

>>
>>>> Yes, of course. It's the case of freak intelligence. It fails, because
>>>> it is not symmetric with a marginal human case. The actuality of the
>>>> chimp with freak intelligence entails the potentiality of moral
>>>> considerability, but the non-actuality of normal human cognition in the
>>>> marginal human does *not* entail the non-potentiality of being a moral
>>>> agent. We see this clearly with humans who are only temporarily
>>>> incapacitated, or with children who mostly will develop to be moral agents.

>>
>>> What do you mean by "potentiality"?

>>
>> Because humans are the unique class who are moral agents, then without
>> knowing anything else about a human being, you know at least that he has
>> the potential to be or to become a moral actor. Furthermore, even when
>> the actuality is that a human is not a moral actor, that doesn't mean he
>> isn't potentially one. This is obviously true of normal human infants,
>> people in a reversible coma, people under anesthesia, people who are
>> asleep, and others.
>>

>
> Again: what do you *mean* by "potential"?


Cut the shit, Woopert. You know what is meant by it.


>> It is not membership /per se/ in the class of beings who as a matter of
>> species normality have the morally relevant trait that leads us to
>> include marginal humans and exclude all other animals; it is the
>> *meaning* of it, which is the potentiality to exercising those faculties.
>>
>> There's another reason why the two marginal cases - freak-intelligent
>> chimp, comatose human - are not symmetric: we observe plenty of
>> marginal humans, most of whom develop or recover their faculty for moral
>> agency, but we have never observed a chimpanzee who can do mathematics
>> at a level that he ought to earn university admission, nor does anyone
>> reasonably expect we ever will.

>


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Default "Speciesism" - nothing wrong with it

On 4/11/2012 8:53 PM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 12, 12:23 am, "Dutch" > wrote:
>> "Rupert" > wrote
>>
>>> Most ethicists would agree that equal consideration of interests is
>>> the default starting position.

>>
>> For whom? My default starting position for consideration is my own
>> interests, followed by my immediate family including my pets, my community,
>> my country, mankind, higher level animals, rare plant species, lower level
>> animals, the planet, and the economy is implied in there somewhere.
>>
>> The default starting position for every organism in existence is its own
>> interests, that is the way the world works.

>
> That is something that requires defence from the moral point of view.


That has been well defended countless times, and you are aware of the
defenses.

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Default "Speciesism" - nothing wrong with it

On 4/8/2012 9:00 PM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 8, 7:06 pm, wrote:
>> "Animal rights activists" - actually, most are "passivists", doing
>> nothing more than talk - commonly invoke "speciesism" to try to explain
>> why human use of animals is wrong. This is meaningless. First of all,
>> all species are "speciesist": the members of all species pursue their
>> interests, as individual entities and as members of their species, with
>> no regard for the interests of other species.

>
> Some nonhuman animals do show concern for the interests of members of
> other species, and in any case there is no good reason why we should
> use the behaviour of nonhuman animals as a moral guide.


No other species show *moral* concern for interests of other species'
members.

The point of the post is that those who decry "speciesism" are relying
on it to say that humans should not engage in it.
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Default "Speciesism" - nothing wrong with it

On 4/8/2012 9:00 PM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 8, 7:06 pm, wrote:
>> "Animal rights activists" - actually, most are "passivists", doing
>> nothing more than talk - commonly invoke "speciesism" to try to explain
>> why human use of animals is wrong. This is meaningless. First of all,
>> all species are "speciesist": the members of all species pursue their
>> interests, as individual entities and as members of their species, with
>> no regard for the interests of other species.

>
> Some nonhuman animals do show concern for the interests of members of
> other species,


Bullshit.


> and in any case there is no good reason why we should
> use the behaviour of nonhuman animals as a moral guide.


So, you *are* a speciesist, just as I said. You hold humans to a
different moral standard. You view humans as morally superior to other
species, based solely on a trait they uniquely possess.

>> The "ar" passivists
>> cannot give a coherent explanation of why "speciesism" is wrong, except
>> by invoking it themselves. Only humans are capable of conceiving of the
>> interests of members of other species. To say that we /must/ is itself
>> "speciesist."
>>

>
> It's not.


It is, of course.

>> Secondly, the only way the passivists attempt to show that it's wrong is
>> by comparison with other "isms" that they claim, without explanation,
>> are inherently and "obviously" wrong: racism, sexism, "heterosexism",
>> etc. This comparison is cynical and dishonest. First, a discussion of
>> *why* racism and sexism are (or might be) wrong quickly reveals that
>> they comprise negative thoughts and actions against people of the same
>> species who share the same morally relevant characteristics as those who
>> are doing the discriminating. A person's race or sex has no bearing on
>> his ability to participate in the moral community of humanity.
>>

>
> There are plenty of intellectually disabled humans who cannot
> participate in the moral comunnity of humanity to any greater degree
> than nonhuman animals.


But they are of the *kind* of entity that *uniquely* can participate in
a moral community. No non-human animals can. The overwhelming majority
of humans can.

As has been shown countless times, your "marginal cases" garbage fails.
It *never* leads to the extension of greater moral consideration to dumb
non-human animals; all it *ever* leads to is a diminution of
consideration for the human marginal cases.

You and Singer want to perform horrific medical experiments on them.


>> That leads to the second criticism of the passivists' comparison. The
>> member of a disadvantaged group was and is able to say, himself, that
>> his treatment at the hands of the advantaged group's members is based on
>> irrelevant considerations and is therefore wrong - he is able to
>> *demonstrate* that he is and ought to be seen as the moral equal of
>> those in the advantaged group.
>>
>> The analogy with racism and sexism and other wholly *human* "isms" is
>> spurious.
>>
>> The passivists cannot make a case as to *why* the interests of members
>> of other species ought to be given the same moral weight as the
>> interests of members of our own species. Forget about "marginal cases"
>> - that doesn't achieve anything.

>
> Equality of interests is the default starting position in ethics.


No.

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Default "Speciesism" - nothing wrong with it

On 4/8/2012 11:43 PM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 9, 6:44 am, George Plimpton > wrote:
>> On 4/8/2012 9:00 PM, Rupert wrote:
>>
>>> On Apr 8, 7:06 pm, wrote:
>>>> "Animal rights activists" - actually, most are "passivists", doing
>>>> nothing more than talk - commonly invoke "speciesism" to try to explain
>>>> why human use of animals is wrong. This is meaningless. First of all,
>>>> all species are "speciesist": the members of all species pursue their
>>>> interests, as individual entities and as members of their species, with
>>>> no regard for the interests of other species.

>>
>>> Some nonhuman animals do show concern for the interests of members of
>>> other species, and in any case there is no good reason why we should
>>> use the behaviour of nonhuman animals as a moral guide.

>>
>> No other species show *moral* concern for interests of other species'
>> members.
>>
>> The point of the post is that those who decry "speciesism" are relying
>> on it to say that humans should not engage in it.
>>

>
> No, they are not.


They are.

>
>>>> The "ar" passivists
>>>> cannot give a coherent explanation of why "speciesism" is wrong, except
>>>> by invoking it themselves. Only humans are capable of conceiving of the
>>>> interests of members of other species. To say that we /must/ is itself
>>>> "speciesist."

>>
>>> It's not.

>>
>> It is.
>>

>
> You obviously don't understand what speciesism is.


I do - far better than you, wobbler.



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Default "Speciesism" - nothing wrong with it

On 4/9/2012 9:15 AM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 9, 4:31 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
>> On 4/8/2012 11:43 PM, Rupert wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 9, 6:44 am, George > wrote:
>>>> On 4/8/2012 9:00 PM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>> On Apr 8, 7:06 pm, wrote:
>>>>>> "Animal rights activists" - actually, most are "passivists", doing
>>>>>> nothing more than talk - commonly invoke "speciesism" to try to explain
>>>>>> why human use of animals is wrong. This is meaningless. First of all,
>>>>>> all species are "speciesist": the members of all species pursue their
>>>>>> interests, as individual entities and as members of their species, with
>>>>>> no regard for the interests of other species.

>>
>>>>> Some nonhuman animals do show concern for the interests of members of
>>>>> other species, and in any case there is no good reason why we should
>>>>> use the behaviour of nonhuman animals as a moral guide.

>>
>>>> No other species show *moral* concern for interests of other species'
>>>> members.

>>
>>>> The point of the post is that those who decry "speciesism" are relying
>>>> on it to say that humans should not engage in it.

>>
>>> No, they are not.

>>
>> Yes, they are. You are requiring humans to behave a particular way due
>> to their species. That's "speciesism" (an ugly, contrived word, in fact
>> not even a real word at all, as every spell-checker in existence
>> demonstrates by flagging it as not a word.)
>>

>
> No, they're not requiring that humans behave a particular way due to
> their species. Saying that only moral agents have moral obligations is
> not speciesism.


That's not what they're saying. They're saying that humans are obliged
to act in a specific way due to a trait that sets them apart from all
other species. That's speciesism, in the vilest sense of the word.
It's exactly equivalent to saying that blacks are obliged to sit at the
back of the bus for a trait distinctive to their race.

"aras" are speciesists. This is not in rational dispute.

>>>>>> The "ar" passivists
>>>>>> cannot give a coherent explanation of why "speciesism" is wrong, except
>>>>>> by invoking it themselves. Only humans are capable of conceiving of the
>>>>>> interests of members of other species. To say that we /must/ is itself
>>>>>> "speciesist."

>>
>>>>> It's not.

>>
>>>> It is.

>>
>>> You obviously don't understand what speciesism is.

>>
>> I do understand full well what it is. In fact, it's sophistry.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>> Secondly, the only way the passivists attempt to show that it's wrong is
>>>>>> by comparison with other "isms" that they claim, without explanation,
>>>>>> are inherently and "obviously" wrong: racism, sexism, "heterosexism",
>>>>>> etc. This comparison is cynical and dishonest. First, a discussion of
>>>>>> *why* racism and sexism are (or might be) wrong quickly reveals that
>>>>>> they comprise negative thoughts and actions against people of the same
>>>>>> species who share the same morally relevant characteristics as those who
>>>>>> are doing the discriminating. A person's race or sex has no bearing on
>>>>>> his ability to participate in the moral community of humanity.

>>
>>>>> There are plenty of intellectually disabled humans who cannot
>>>>> participate in the moral comunnity of humanity to

>>
>>>> "marginal cases" doesn't work. It's useless.

>>
>>> Why not?

>>
>> I've explained that to you before, too. The argument from species
>> normality defeats it, among other things.

>
> The argument from species normality is flawed.


No, it isn't. It is the argument from marginal cases that is fatally
flawed.

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Default "Speciesism" - nothing wrong with it

On 4/9/2012 12:04 PM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 9, 6:42 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
>> On 4/9/2012 9:15 AM, Rupert wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 9, 4:31 pm, George > wrote:
>>>> On 4/8/2012 11:43 PM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>> On Apr 9, 6:44 am, George > wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/8/2012 9:00 PM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 8, 7:06 pm, wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Animal rights activists" - actually, most are "passivists", doing
>>>>>>>> nothing more than talk - commonly invoke "speciesism" to try to explain
>>>>>>>> why human use of animals is wrong. This is meaningless. First of all,
>>>>>>>> all species are "speciesist": the members of all species pursue their
>>>>>>>> interests, as individual entities and as members of their species, with
>>>>>>>> no regard for the interests of other species.

>>
>>>>>>> Some nonhuman animals do show concern for the interests of members of
>>>>>>> other species, and in any case there is no good reason why we should
>>>>>>> use the behaviour of nonhuman animals as a moral guide.

>>
>>>>>> No other species show *moral* concern for interests of other species'
>>>>>> members.

>>
>>>>>> The point of the post is that those who decry "speciesism" are relying
>>>>>> on it to say that humans should not engage in it.

>>
>>>>> No, they are not.

>>
>>>> Yes, they are. You are requiring humans to behave a particular way due
>>>> to their species. That's "speciesism" (an ugly, contrived word, in fact
>>>> not even a real word at all, as every spell-checker in existence
>>>> demonstrates by flagging it as not a word.)

>>
>>> No, they're not requiring that humans behave a particular way due to
>>> their species. Saying that only moral agents have moral obligations is
>>> not speciesism.

>>
>> That's not what you're doing.
>>

>
> Why not?


Why isn't your paternal grandfather also your maternal
great-grandmother, you ****tard?

Sometimes, wobbler, the answer is: just because.

>>
>>
>>
>>>>>>>> The "ar" passivists
>>>>>>>> cannot give a coherent explanation of why "speciesism" is wrong, except
>>>>>>>> by invoking it themselves. Only humans are capable of conceiving of the
>>>>>>>> interests of members of other species. To say that we /must/ is itself
>>>>>>>> "speciesist."

>>
>>>>>>> It's not.

>>
>>>>>> It is.

>>
>>>>> You obviously don't understand what speciesism is.

>>
>>>> I do understand full well what it is. In fact, it's sophistry.

>>
>>>>>>>> Secondly, the only way the passivists attempt to show that it's wrong is
>>>>>>>> by comparison with other "isms" that they claim, without explanation,
>>>>>>>> are inherently and "obviously" wrong: racism, sexism, "heterosexism",
>>>>>>>> etc. This comparison is cynical and dishonest. First, a discussion of
>>>>>>>> *why* racism and sexism are (or might be) wrong quickly reveals that
>>>>>>>> they comprise negative thoughts and actions against people of the same
>>>>>>>> species who share the same morally relevant characteristics as those who
>>>>>>>> are doing the discriminating. A person's race or sex has no bearing on
>>>>>>>> his ability to participate in the moral community of humanity.

>>
>>>>>>> There are plenty of intellectually disabled humans who cannot
>>>>>>> participate in the moral comunnity of humanity to

>>
>>>>>> "marginal cases" doesn't work. It's useless.

>>
>>>>> Why not?

>>
>>>> I've explained that to you before, too. The argument from species
>>>> normality defeats it, among other things.

>>
>>> The argument from species normality is flawed.

>>
>> No, it isn't. It fully defeats the fake argument from marginal cases.

>
> Wrong.


No, I'm right.

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Default "Speciesism" - nothing wrong with it

On 4/10/2012 3:54 PM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 10, 3:50 pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
>> On 4/10/2012 12:35 AM, Rupert wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 9, 10:41 pm, George > wrote:
>>>> On 4/9/2012 12:04 PM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>> On Apr 9, 6:42 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/9/2012 9:15 AM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 9, 4:31 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/8/2012 11:43 PM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 9, 6:44 am, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/8/2012 9:00 PM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 8, 7:06 pm, wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Animal rights activists" - actually, most are "passivists", doing
>>>>>>>>>>>> nothing more than talk - commonly invoke "speciesism" to try to explain
>>>>>>>>>>>> why human use of animals is wrong. This is meaningless. First of all,
>>>>>>>>>>>> all species are "speciesist": the members of all species pursue their
>>>>>>>>>>>> interests, as individual entities and as members of their species, with
>>>>>>>>>>>> no regard for the interests of other species.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Some nonhuman animals do show concern for the interests of members of
>>>>>>>>>>> other species, and in any case there is no good reason why we should
>>>>>>>>>>> use the behaviour of nonhuman animals as a moral guide.

>>
>>>>>>>>>> No other species show *moral* concern for interests of other species'
>>>>>>>>>> members.

>>
>>>>>>>>>> The point of the post is that those who decry "speciesism" are relying
>>>>>>>>>> on it to say that humans should not engage in it.

>>
>>>>>>>>> No, they are not.

>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, they are. You are requiring humans to behave a particular way due
>>>>>>>> to their species. That's "speciesism" (an ugly, contrived word, in fact
>>>>>>>> not even a real word at all, as every spell-checker in existence
>>>>>>>> demonstrates by flagging it as not a word.)

>>
>>>>>>> No, they're not requiring that humans behave a particular way due to
>>>>>>> their species. Saying that only moral agents have moral obligations is
>>>>>>> not speciesism.

>>
>>>>>> That's not what you're doing.

>>
>>>>> Why not?

>>
>>>> You tell us what your motive is.

>>
>>> I don't understand this.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The "ar" passivists
>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot give a coherent explanation of why "speciesism" is wrong, except
>>>>>>>>>>>> by invoking it themselves. Only humans are capable of conceiving of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> interests of members of other species. To say that we /must/ is itself
>>>>>>>>>>>> "speciesist."

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's not.

>>
>>>>>>>>>> It is.

>>
>>>>>>>>> You obviously don't understand what speciesism is.

>>
>>>>>>>> I do understand full well what it is. In fact, it's sophistry.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Secondly, the only way the passivists attempt to show that it's wrong is
>>>>>>>>>>>> by comparison with other "isms" that they claim, without explanation,
>>>>>>>>>>>> are inherently and "obviously" wrong: racism, sexism, "heterosexism",
>>>>>>>>>>>> etc. This comparison is cynical and dishonest. First, a discussion of
>>>>>>>>>>>> *why* racism and sexism are (or might be) wrong quickly reveals that
>>>>>>>>>>>> they comprise negative thoughts and actions against people of the same
>>>>>>>>>>>> species who share the same morally relevant characteristics as those who
>>>>>>>>>>>> are doing the discriminating. A person's race or sex has no bearing on
>>>>>>>>>>>> his ability to participate in the moral community of humanity.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There are plenty of intellectually disabled humans who cannot
>>>>>>>>>>> participate in the moral comunnity of humanity to

>>
>>>>>>>>>> "marginal cases" doesn't work. It's useless.

>>
>>>>>>>>> Why not?

>>
>>>>>>>> I've explained that to you before, too. The argument from species
>>>>>>>> normality defeats it, among other things.

>>
>>>>>>> The argument from species normality is flawed.

>>
>>>>>> No, it isn't. It fully defeats the fake argument from marginal cases.

>>
>>>>> Wrong.

>>
>>>> Nope; right.

>>
>>> What exactly are the premises of the argument from species normality?

>>
>> Above you wrote, "The argument from species normality is flawed." Do
>> you mean to say you wrote that without knowing what the premises are?
>> That seems very reckless and irresponsible.
>>

>
> I believe that one of the premises of the argument from species
> normality is that the moral consideration an individual should get is
> determined by what characteristics are typical for that individual's
> species,


So, when you smirkingly demanded that I enumerate the premises of the
argument, you were just trying to waste my time, as you already knew.
You were just ****ing off.

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Default "Speciesism" - nothing wrong with it

On 4/10/2012 10:50 PM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 11, 2:16 am, George Plimpton > wrote:
>> On 4/10/2012 3:54 PM, Rupert wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 10, 3:50 pm, George > wrote:
>>>> On 4/10/2012 12:35 AM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>> On Apr 9, 10:41 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/9/2012 12:04 PM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 9, 6:42 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/9/2012 9:15 AM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 9, 4:31 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/8/2012 11:43 PM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 9, 6:44 am, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/8/2012 9:00 PM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 8, 7:06 pm, wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Animal rights activists" - actually, most are "passivists", doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nothing more than talk - commonly invoke "speciesism" to try to explain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why human use of animals is wrong. This is meaningless. First of all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all species are "speciesist": the members of all species pursue their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interests, as individual entities and as members of their species, with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no regard for the interests of other species.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some nonhuman animals do show concern for the interests of members of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> other species, and in any case there is no good reason why we should
>>>>>>>>>>>>> use the behaviour of nonhuman animals as a moral guide.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No other species show *moral* concern for interests of other species'
>>>>>>>>>>>> members.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The point of the post is that those who decry "speciesism" are relying
>>>>>>>>>>>> on it to say that humans should not engage in it.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, they are not.

>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, they are. You are requiring humans to behave a particular way due
>>>>>>>>>> to their species. That's "speciesism" (an ugly, contrived word, in fact
>>>>>>>>>> not even a real word at all, as every spell-checker in existence
>>>>>>>>>> demonstrates by flagging it as not a word.)

>>
>>>>>>>>> No, they're not requiring that humans behave a particular way due to
>>>>>>>>> their species. Saying that only moral agents have moral obligations is
>>>>>>>>> not speciesism.

>>
>>>>>>>> That's not what you're doing.

>>
>>>>>>> Why not?

>>
>>>>>> You tell us what your motive is.

>>
>>>>> I don't understand this.

>>
>> Yes, you do.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The "ar" passivists
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot give a coherent explanation of why "speciesism" is wrong, except
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by invoking it themselves. Only humans are capable of conceiving of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interests of members of other species. To say that we /must/ is itself
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "speciesist."

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's not.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You obviously don't understand what speciesism is.

>>
>>>>>>>>>> I do understand full well what it is. In fact, it's sophistry.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Secondly, the only way the passivists attempt to show that it's wrong is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by comparison with other "isms" that they claim, without explanation,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are inherently and "obviously" wrong: racism, sexism, "heterosexism",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc. This comparison is cynical and dishonest. First, a discussion of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *why* racism and sexism are (or might be) wrong quickly reveals that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they comprise negative thoughts and actions against people of the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> species who share the same morally relevant characteristics as those who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are doing the discriminating. A person's race or sex has no bearing on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his ability to participate in the moral community of humanity.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are plenty of intellectually disabled humans who cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>> participate in the moral comunnity of humanity to

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "marginal cases" doesn't work. It's useless.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why not?

>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've explained that to you before, too. The argument from species
>>>>>>>>>> normality defeats it, among other things.

>>
>>>>>>>>> The argument from species normality is flawed.

>>
>>>>>>>> No, it isn't. It fully defeats the fake argument from marginal cases.

>>
>>>>>>> Wrong.

>>
>>>>>> Nope; right.

>>
>>>>> What exactly are the premises of the argument from species normality?

>>
>>>> Above you wrote, "The argument from species normality is flawed." Do
>>>> you mean to say you wrote that without knowing what the premises are?
>>>> That seems very reckless and irresponsible.

>>
>>> I believe that one of the premises of the argument from species
>>> normality is that the moral consideration an individual should get is
>>> determined by what characteristics are typical for that individual's
>>> species, and I believe that it is possible to construct thought-
>>> experiments which show this premise to be problematic.

>>
>> Have a go at it.
>>

>
> Do you know the thought-experiment of the chimpanzee who can
> understand advanced mathematics?


Su the chimpanzee that has never existed and that no one has any
reason to think ever will exist.

Rights are something to aid in regulating relations in the real world,
not in some demented science fiction thought experiment cooked up by
psychotics.
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Default "Speciesism" - nothing wrong with it

On 4/11/2012 10:40 AM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 11, 6:27 pm, Donn Messenheimer >
> wrote:
>> On 4/10/2012 10:50 PM, Rupert wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 11, 2:16 am, George > wrote:
>>>> On 4/10/2012 3:54 PM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>> On Apr 10, 3:50 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>> On 4/10/2012 12:35 AM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>>>> On Apr 9, 10:41 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 4/9/2012 12:04 PM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 9, 6:42 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 4/9/2012 9:15 AM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 9, 4:31 pm, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/8/2012 11:43 PM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 9, 6:44 am, George > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/8/2012 9:00 PM, Rupert wrote:

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 8, 7:06 pm, wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Animal rights activists" - actually, most are "passivists", doing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nothing more than talk - commonly invoke "speciesism" to try to explain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> why human use of animals is wrong. This is meaningless. First of all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all species are "speciesist": the members of all species pursue their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interests, as individual entities and as members of their species, with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no regard for the interests of other species.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some nonhuman animals do show concern for the interests of members of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other species, and in any case there is no good reason why we should
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use the behaviour of nonhuman animals as a moral guide.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No other species show *moral* concern for interests of other species'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> members.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The point of the post is that those who decry "speciesism" are relying
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on it to say that humans should not engage in it.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, they are not.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, they are. You are requiring humans to behave a particular way due
>>>>>>>>>>>> to their species. That's "speciesism" (an ugly, contrived word, in fact
>>>>>>>>>>>> not even a real word at all, as every spell-checker in existence
>>>>>>>>>>>> demonstrates by flagging it as not a word.)

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, they're not requiring that humans behave a particular way due to
>>>>>>>>>>> their species. Saying that only moral agents have moral obligations is
>>>>>>>>>>> not speciesism.

>>
>>>>>>>>>> That's not what you're doing.

>>
>>>>>>>>> Why not?

>>
>>>>>>>> You tell us what your motive is.

>>
>>>>>>> I don't understand this.

>>
>>>> Yes, you do.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The "ar" passivists
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cannot give a coherent explanation of why "speciesism" is wrong, except
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by invoking it themselves. Only humans are capable of conceiving of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interests of members of other species. To say that we /must/ is itself
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "speciesist."

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's not.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You obviously don't understand what speciesism is.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I do understand full well what it is. In fact, it's sophistry.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Secondly, the only way the passivists attempt to show that it's wrong is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by comparison with other "isms" that they claim, without explanation,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are inherently and "obviously" wrong: racism, sexism, "heterosexism",
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc. This comparison is cynical and dishonest. First, a discussion of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *why* racism and sexism are (or might be) wrong quickly reveals that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they comprise negative thoughts and actions against people of the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> species who share the same morally relevant characteristics as those who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are doing the discriminating. A person's race or sex has no bearing on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his ability to participate in the moral community of humanity.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There are plenty of intellectually disabled humans who cannot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> participate in the moral comunnity of humanity to

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "marginal cases" doesn't work. It's useless.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not?

>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've explained that to you before, too. The argument from species
>>>>>>>>>>>> normality defeats it, among other things.

>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The argument from species normality is flawed.

>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, it isn't. It fully defeats the fake argument from marginal cases.

>>
>>>>>>>>> Wrong.

>>
>>>>>>>> Nope; right.

>>
>>>>>>> What exactly are the premises of the argument from species normality?

>>
>>>>>> Above you wrote, "The argument from species normality is flawed." Do
>>>>>> you mean to say you wrote that without knowing what the premises are?
>>>>>> That seems very reckless and irresponsible.

>>
>>>>> I believe that one of the premises of the argument from species
>>>>> normality is that the moral consideration an individual should get is
>>>>> determined by what characteristics are typical for that individual's
>>>>> species, and I believe that it is possible to construct thought-
>>>>> experiments which show this premise to be problematic.

>>
>>>> Have a go at it.

>>
>>> Do you know the thought-experiment of the chimpanzee who can
>>> understand advanced mathematics?

>>
>>>>>>>> Another way the bogus "marginal cases" argument is queered is by
>>>>>>>> pointing out that rather than elevate the moral consideration given to
>>>>>>>> animals, it would tend to lessen that given to the marginal cases.

>>
>>>>>>> It would probably do both.

>>
>>>>>> No.

>>
>>>>>>>> You just don't have a sound argument against "speciesism".

>>
>>>>>>> The burden of proof is on the *defender* of speciesism.

>>
>>>>>> The burden of proof is on the "ar" extremists who claim non-human
>>>>>> animals deserve equal moral consideration.

>>
>>>>> Wrong. If you think that you belong to a special group whose interests
>>>>> deserve more consideration than those of other groups, the burden is
>>>>> on you to explain why.

>>
>>>> Nope. As the overwhelming majority - 99% + - of people believe that it
>>>> is correct to give more consideration to the interests of members of
>>>> their species than to members of other species, you're going to have to
>>>> make a case for why they're wrong. The burden is on you. The
>>>> presumption that our interests should receive greater consideration is
>>>> the champion; your position is the challenger. The challenger must
>>>> defeat the champion, or the champion remains champion by default.
>>>> That's how it works.

>>
>>> No. There is a default presumption of equal consideration of interests
>>> in ethics.

>>
>> Who says so? Peter Singer?

>
> Peter Singer, and most other ethicists,


Bullshit.

>
>> That's a position he advocates polemically.
>> How does he show that it ought to be considered the default? Who
>> agrees with him? Not Bonnie Steinbock.
>>

>
> Most ethicists would agree that equal consideration of interests is
> the default starting position.


/argumentum ad populum/, but also certainly false.



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Default "Speciesism" - nothing wrong with it

"Rudy Canoza" wrote in message news
> On 4/8/2012 9:00 PM, Rupert wrote:


> > Some nonhuman animals do show concern for the interests of members of
> > other species,


> Bullshit.


http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2016/10...n-orig-llr.cnn

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