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suffering reduction
On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote:
> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be > that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would > possibly even increase suffering. > > [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. Most claim to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. Those few who are aware of animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. In the end, as we have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not *necessarily* true. So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. If they really were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" care to do it. Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." They'll expend an absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing more than a pose. This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". All they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. |
suffering reduction
On Apr 4, 10:17*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: > > > Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be > > that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would > > possibly even increase suffering. > > > [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] > > The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much > merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. *Most claim > to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. *Those few who are aware of > animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but > fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing > the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. *In the end, as we > have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm > doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not > *necessarily* true. *So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. > > The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their > mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. *If they really > were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to > animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which > vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to > animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, > but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" > care to do it. *Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the > "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." *They'll expend an > absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined > black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire > sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. > * The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, > is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing > more than a pose. > > This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really > interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". *All > they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter > themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage in the "irrational search for micrograms". You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not genuinely interested in harm reduction. Some vegans do make an effort to try and find out which plant-based products cause more harm and accordingly avoid them. For those that don't it is probably because the thought has not occurred to them or that they think it would be unlikely that a significant reduction in harm could thereby be effected. Which is probably true, it is unlikely that one could effect much harm reduction that way, even if more research was done about the matter. Also, investing resources in doing such research is not necessarily the most effective way to bring about a reduction in suffering. I have taken an interest in trying to do something to reduce suffering and have approached the question of how to do this in a rational way. Lots of other vegans could say the same. You have no rational grounds for saying otherwise. Furthermore, it's very hard to make sense of your account of what really motivates vegans. You seem to be claiming that somehow or other they are interested in taking a moral stance without genuinely being interested in harm reduction. But no sense can be made of such a moral stance. Your views of vegans' motivations is based on an unrealistic view of human psychology. |
suffering reduction
On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > wrote: >> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be >>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would >>> possibly even increase suffering. >> >>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] >> >> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much >> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. Most claim >> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. Those few who are aware of >> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but >> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing >> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. In the end, as we >> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm >> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not >> *necessarily* true. So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. >> >> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their >> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. If they really >> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to >> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which >> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to >> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, >> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" >> care to do it. Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the >> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." They'll expend an >> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined >> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire >> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. >> The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, >> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing >> more than a pose. >> >> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really >> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". All >> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter >> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. > > You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which > are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be > vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage > in the "irrational search for micrograms". > > You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not > genuinely interested in harm reduction. I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and doing nothing. |
suffering reduction
On Apr 5, 8:06*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > *wrote: > >> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be > >>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would > >>> possibly even increase suffering. > > >>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] > > >> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much > >> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. *Most claim > >> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. *Those few who are aware of > >> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but > >> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing > >> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. *In the end, as we > >> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm > >> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not > >> *necessarily* true. *So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. > > >> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their > >> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. *If they really > >> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to > >> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which > >> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to > >> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, > >> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" > >> care to do it. *Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the > >> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." *They'll expend an > >> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined > >> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire > >> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. > >> * *The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, > >> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing > >> more than a pose. > > >> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really > >> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". *All > >> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter > >> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. > > > You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which > > are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be > > vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage > > in the "irrational search for micrograms". > > > You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not > > genuinely interested in harm reduction. > > I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what > they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in > their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and > doing nothing. What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of refraining from eating animal products? |
suffering reduction
On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > wrote: >> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > wrote: >>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be >>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would >>>>> possibly even increase suffering. >> >>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] >> >>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much >>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. Most claim >>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. Those few who are aware of >>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but >>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing >>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. In the end, as we >>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm >>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not >>>> *necessarily* true. So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. >> >>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their >>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. If they really >>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to >>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which >>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to >>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, >>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" >>>> care to do it. Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the >>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." They'll expend an >>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined >>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire >>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. >>>> The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, >>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing >>>> more than a pose. >> >>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really >>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". All >>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter >>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. >> >>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which >>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be >>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage >>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". >> >>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not >>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. >> >> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what >> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in >> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and >> doing nothing. > > What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of > refraining from eating animal products? I've been over all that with you before. |
suffering reduction
On Apr 5, 9:33*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > *wrote: > >> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > * *wrote: > >>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be > >>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would > >>>>> possibly even increase suffering. > > >>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] > > >>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much > >>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. *Most claim > >>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. *Those few who are aware of > >>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but > >>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing > >>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. *In the end, as we > >>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm > >>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not > >>>> *necessarily* true. *So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. > > >>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their > >>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. *If they really > >>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to > >>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which > >>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to > >>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, > >>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" > >>>> care to do it. *Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the > >>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." *They'll expend an > >>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined > >>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire > >>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. > >>>> * * The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, > >>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing > >>>> more than a pose. > > >>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really > >>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". *All > >>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter > >>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. > > >>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which > >>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be > >>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage > >>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". > > >>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not > >>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. > > >> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what > >> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in > >> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and > >> doing nothing. > > > What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of > > refraining from eating animal products? > > I've been over all that with you before. Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? |
suffering reduction
On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > wrote: >> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > wrote: >>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be >>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would >>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. >> >>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] >> >>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much >>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. Most claim >>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. Those few who are aware of >>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but >>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing >>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. In the end, as we >>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm >>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not >>>>>> *necessarily* true. So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. >> >>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their >>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. If they really >>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to >>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which >>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to >>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, >>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" >>>>>> care to do it. Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the >>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." They'll expend an >>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined >>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire >>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. >>>>>> The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, >>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing >>>>>> more than a pose. >> >>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really >>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". All >>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter >>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. >> >>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which >>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be >>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage >>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". >> >>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not >>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. >> >>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what >>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in >>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and >>>> doing nothing. >> >>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of >>> refraining from eating animal products? >> >> I've been over all that with you before. > > Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the > amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, > and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard > short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? No, because it's not supported by the evidence. |
suffering reduction
On Apr 5, 9:55*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > *wrote: > >> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > * *wrote: > >>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > * * *wrote: > >>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be > >>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would > >>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. > > >>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] > > >>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much > >>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. *Most claim > >>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. *Those few who are aware of > >>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but > >>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing > >>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. *In the end, as we > >>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm > >>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not > >>>>>> *necessarily* true. *So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless.. > > >>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their > >>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. *If they really > >>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to > >>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which > >>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to > >>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, > >>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" > >>>>>> care to do it. *Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the > >>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." *They'll expend an > >>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined > >>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire > >>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. > >>>>>> * * *The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, > >>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing > >>>>>> more than a pose. > > >>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really > >>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". *All > >>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter > >>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. > > >>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which > >>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be > >>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage > >>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". > > >>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not > >>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. > > >>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what > >>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in > >>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and > >>>> doing nothing. > > >>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of > >>> refraining from eating animal products? > > >> I've been over all that with you before. > > > Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the > > amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, > > and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard > > short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? > > No, because it's not supported by the evidence. Why not? |
suffering reduction
On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > wrote: >> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > wrote: >>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be >>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would >>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. >> >>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] >> >>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much >>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. Most claim >>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. Those few who are aware of >>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but >>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing >>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. In the end, as we >>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm >>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not >>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. >> >>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their >>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. If they really >>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to >>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which >>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to >>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, >>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" >>>>>>>> care to do it. Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the >>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." They'll expend an >>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined >>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire >>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. >>>>>>>> The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, >>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing >>>>>>>> more than a pose. >> >>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really >>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". All >>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter >>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. >> >>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which >>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be >>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage >>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". >> >>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not >>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. >> >>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what >>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in >>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and >>>>>> doing nothing. >> >>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of >>>>> refraining from eating animal products? >> >>>> I've been over all that with you before. >> >>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the >>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, >>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard >>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? >> >> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. > > Why not? Already explained. |
suffering reduction
On Apr 5, 11:15*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > *wrote: > >> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > * *wrote: > >>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > * * *wrote: > >>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be > >>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would > >>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. > > >>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] > > >>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much > >>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. *Most claim > >>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. *Those few who are aware of > >>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but > >>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing > >>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. *In the end, as we > >>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm > >>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not > >>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. *So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. > > >>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their > >>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. *If they really > >>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to > >>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which > >>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to > >>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, > >>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" > >>>>>>>> care to do it. *Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the > >>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." *They'll expend an > >>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined > >>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire > >>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. > >>>>>>>> * * * The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, > >>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing > >>>>>>>> more than a pose. > > >>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really > >>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights".. *All > >>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter > >>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. > > >>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which > >>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be > >>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage > >>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". > > >>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not > >>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. > > >>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what > >>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in > >>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and > >>>>>> doing nothing. > > >>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of > >>>>> refraining from eating animal products? > > >>>> I've been over all that with you before. > > >>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the > >>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, > >>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard > >>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? > > >> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. > > > Why not? > > Already explained. You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested conclusion is not supported by the evidence. You can't. My suggested conclusion is a reasonable one. |
suffering reduction
On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > wrote: >> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > wrote: >>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be >>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would >>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. >> >>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] >> >>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much >>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. Most claim >>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. Those few who are aware of >>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but >>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing >>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. In the end, as we >>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm >>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not >>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. >> >>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their >>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. If they really >>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to >>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which >>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to >>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, >>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" >>>>>>>>>> care to do it. Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the >>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." They'll expend an >>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined >>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire >>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. >>>>>>>>>> The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, >>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing >>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. >> >>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really >>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". All >>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter >>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. >> >>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which >>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be >>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage >>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". >> >>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not >>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. >> >>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what >>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in >>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and >>>>>>>> doing nothing. >> >>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of >>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? >> >>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. >> >>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the >>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, >>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard >>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? >> >>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. >> >>> Why not? >> >> Already explained. > > You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested > conclusion is not supported by the evidence. I sure have. |
suffering reduction
On Apr 6, 5:53*am, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > *wrote: > >> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > * *wrote: > >>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > * * *wrote: > >>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be > >>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would > >>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. > > >>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] > > >>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much > >>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. *Most claim > >>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. *Those few who are aware of > >>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but > >>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing > >>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. *In the end, as we > >>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm > >>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not > >>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. *So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. > > >>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their > >>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. *If they really > >>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to > >>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which > >>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to > >>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, > >>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" > >>>>>>>>>> care to do it. *Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the > >>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." *They'll expend an > >>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined > >>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire > >>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. > >>>>>>>>>> * * * *The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, > >>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing > >>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. > > >>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really > >>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". *All > >>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter > >>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. > > >>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which > >>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be > >>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage > >>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". > > >>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not > >>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. > > >>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what > >>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in > >>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and > >>>>>>>> doing nothing. > > >>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of > >>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? > > >>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. > > >>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the > >>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, > >>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard > >>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? > > >>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. > > >>> Why not? > > >> Already explained. > > > You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested > > conclusion is not supported by the evidence. > > I sure have. You will not substantiate this claim. |
suffering reduction
On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > wrote: >> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > wrote: >>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be >>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would >>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] >> >>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much >>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. Most claim >>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. Those few who are aware of >>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but >>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing >>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. In the end, as we >>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm >>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not >>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. >> >>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their >>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. If they really >>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to >>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which >>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to >>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, >>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" >>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the >>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." They'll expend an >>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined >>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire >>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. >>>>>>>>>>>> The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, >>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing >>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. >> >>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really >>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". All >>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter >>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. >> >>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which >>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be >>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage >>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". >> >>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not >>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. >> >>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what >>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in >>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and >>>>>>>>>> doing nothing. >> >>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of >>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? >> >>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. >> >>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the >>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, >>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard >>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? >> >>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. >> >>>>> Why not? >> >>>> Already explained. >> >>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested >>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence. >> >> I sure have. > > You will not substantiate this claim. I already have done. You're just trying to waste my time. |
suffering reduction
On Apr 6, 3:57*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > *wrote: > >> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > * *wrote: > >>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > * * *wrote: > >>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be > >>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would > >>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much > >>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. *Most claim > >>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. *Those few who are aware of > >>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but > >>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing > >>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. *In the end, as we > >>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not > >>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. *So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their > >>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. *If they really > >>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to > >>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which > >>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to > >>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, > >>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" > >>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. *Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the > >>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." *They'll expend an > >>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined > >>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire > >>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. > >>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, > >>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing > >>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really > >>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". *All > >>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter > >>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. > > >>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which > >>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be > >>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage > >>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". > > >>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not > >>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. > > >>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what > >>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in > >>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and > >>>>>>>>>> doing nothing. > > >>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of > >>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? > > >>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. > > >>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the > >>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, > >>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard > >>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? > > >>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. > > >>>>> Why not? > > >>>> Already explained. > > >>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested > >>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence. > > >> I sure have. > > > You will not substantiate this claim. > > I already have done. *You're just trying to waste my time. You have not, and you will not, because you cannot. My remark was correct: you have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested conclusion is not supported by the evidence. |
suffering reduction
On 4/6/2012 7:38 AM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, George > wrote: >> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > wrote: >>>> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much >>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. Most claim >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. Those few who are aware of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. In the end, as we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. If they really >>>>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which >>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." They'll expend an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined >>>>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing >>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really >>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". All >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter >>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which >>>>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be >>>>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage >>>>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not >>>>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. >> >>>>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what >>>>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in >>>>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and >>>>>>>>>>>> doing nothing. >> >>>>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of >>>>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? >> >>>>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. >> >>>>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the >>>>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, >>>>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard >>>>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? >> >>>>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. >> >>>>>>> Why not? >> >>>>>> Already explained. >> >>>>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested >>>>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence. >> >>>> I sure have. >> >>> You will not substantiate this claim. >> >> I already have done. You're just trying to waste my time. > > You have not, I have, and you know quite well how. You're just trying to waste my time; you can **** off instead. |
suffering reduction
On Apr 6, 5:16*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 4/6/2012 7:38 AM, Rupert wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, George > *wrote: > >> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>> On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > * *wrote: > >>>> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > * * *wrote: > >>>>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. *Most claim > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. *Those few who are aware of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. *In the end, as we > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. *So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. *If they really > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. *Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." *They'll expend an > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * *The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". *All > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which > >>>>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be > >>>>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not > >>>>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what > >>>>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in > >>>>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and > >>>>>>>>>>>> doing nothing. > > >>>>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of > >>>>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? > > >>>>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. > > >>>>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the > >>>>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, > >>>>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard > >>>>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? > > >>>>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. > > >>>>>>> Why not? > > >>>>>> Already explained. > > >>>>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested > >>>>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence. > > >>>> I sure have. > > >>> You will not substantiate this claim. > > >> I already have done. *You're just trying to waste my time. > > > You have not, > > I have, and you know quite well how. *You're just trying to waste my > time; you can **** off instead. As usual you are talking nonsense. |
suffering reduction
On 4/6/2012 8:27 AM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 6, 5:16 pm, George > wrote: >> On 4/6/2012 7:38 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, George > wrote: >>>> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>> On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > wrote: >>>>>> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. Most claim >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. Those few who are aware of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. In the end, as we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. If they really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." They'll expend an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". All >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing nothing. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of >>>>>>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? >> >>>>>>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. >> >>>>>>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the >>>>>>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, >>>>>>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard >>>>>>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? >> >>>>>>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. >> >>>>>>>>> Why not? >> >>>>>>>> Already explained. >> >>>>>>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested >>>>>>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence. >> >>>>>> I sure have. >> >>>>> You will not substantiate this claim. >> >>>> I already have done. You're just trying to waste my time. >> >>> You have not, >> >> I have, and you know quite well how. You're just trying to waste my >> time; you can **** off instead. > > As usual As usual, I'm right. |
suffering reduction
On Apr 6, 5:46*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 4/6/2012 8:27 AM, Rupert wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 6, 5:16 pm, George > *wrote: > >> On 4/6/2012 7:38 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>> On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, George > * *wrote: > >>>> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>> On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > * * *wrote: > >>>>>> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. *Most claim > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. *Those few who are aware of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. *In the end, as we > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. *So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. *If they really > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. *Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." *They'll expend an > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * * The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". *All > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing nothing. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of > >>>>>>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. > > >>>>>>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the > >>>>>>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, > >>>>>>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard > >>>>>>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? > > >>>>>>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. > > >>>>>>>>> Why not? > > >>>>>>>> Already explained. > > >>>>>>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested > >>>>>>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence. > > >>>>>> I sure have. > > >>>>> You will not substantiate this claim. > > >>>> I already have done. *You're just trying to waste my time. > > >>> You have not, > > >> I have, and you know quite well how. *You're just trying to waste my > >> time; you can **** off instead. > > > As usual > > As usual, I'm right. You certainly appear to be strongly convinced of that. |
suffering reduction
On Apr 6, 9:51*am, Rupert > wrote:
> On Apr 6, 5:46*pm, George Plimpton > wrote: > > > > > > > On 4/6/2012 8:27 AM, Rupert wrote: > > > > On Apr 6, 5:16 pm, George > *wrote: > > >> On 4/6/2012 7:38 AM, Rupert wrote: > > > >>> On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, George > * *wrote: > > >>>> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote: > > > >>>>> On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > * * *wrote: > > >>>>>> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote: > > > >>>>>>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > * * * *wrote: > > >>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > * * * * *wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > * * * * * *wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > * * * * * * *wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > * * * * * * * *wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. *Most claim > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. *Those few who are aware of > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. *In the end, as we > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. *So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. *If they really > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. *Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." *They'll expend an > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * * The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". *All > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing nothing. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the > > >>>>>>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, > > >>>>>>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard > > >>>>>>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? > > > >>>>>>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. > > > >>>>>>>>> Why not? > > > >>>>>>>> Already explained. > > > >>>>>>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested > > >>>>>>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence. > > > >>>>>> I sure have. > > > >>>>> You will not substantiate this claim. > > > >>>> I already have done. *You're just trying to waste my time. > > > >>> You have not, > > > >> I have, and you know quite well how. *You're just trying to waste my > > >> time; you can **** off instead. > > > > As usual > > > As usual, I'm right. > > You certainly appear to be strongly convinced of that. He's also strongly convinced that some cows are raised fo 12 years for no othe purpose than to become pet food. |
suffering reduction
On 4/6/2012 8:51 AM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 6, 5:46 pm, George > wrote: >> On 4/6/2012 8:27 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Apr 6, 5:16 pm, George > wrote: >>>> On 4/6/2012 7:38 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>> On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > wrote: >>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. Most claim >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. Those few who are aware of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. In the end, as we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. If they really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." They'll expend an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". All >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing nothing. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the >>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, >>>>>>>>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard >>>>>>>>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? >> >>>>>>>>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. >> >>>>>>>>>>> Why not? >> >>>>>>>>>> Already explained. >> >>>>>>>>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested >>>>>>>>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence. >> >>>>>>>> I sure have. >> >>>>>>> You will not substantiate this claim. >> >>>>>> I already have done. You're just trying to waste my time. >> >>>>> You have not, >> >>>> I have, and you know quite well how. You're just trying to waste my >>>> time; you can **** off instead. >> >>> As usual >> >> As usual, I'm right. > > You certainly appear to be Yes. |
suffering reduction
On Apr 6, 6:10*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 4/6/2012 8:51 AM, Rupert wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 6, 5:46 pm, George > *wrote: > >> On 4/6/2012 8:27 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>> On Apr 6, 5:16 pm, George > * *wrote: > >>>> On 4/6/2012 7:38 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>> On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, George > * * *wrote: > >>>>>> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. *Most claim > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. *Those few who are aware of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. *In the end, as we > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. *So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. *If they really > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. *Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." *They'll expend an > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * * *The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". *All > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing nothing. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard > >>>>>>>>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? > > >>>>>>>>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. > > >>>>>>>>>>> Why not? > > >>>>>>>>>> Already explained. > > >>>>>>>>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested > >>>>>>>>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence. > > >>>>>>>> I sure have. > > >>>>>>> You will not substantiate this claim. > > >>>>>> I already have done. *You're just trying to waste my time. > > >>>>> You have not, > > >>>> I have, and you know quite well how. *You're just trying to waste my > >>>> time; you can **** off instead. > > >>> As usual > > >> As usual, I'm right. > > > You certainly appear to be > > Yes. So, did you do anything worthwhile today? |
suffering reduction
On 4/6/2012 9:22 AM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 6, 6:10 pm, George > wrote: >> On 4/6/2012 8:51 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Apr 6, 5:46 pm, George > wrote: >>>> On 4/6/2012 8:27 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>> On Apr 6, 5:16 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>> On 4/6/2012 7:38 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>> On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. Most claim >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. Those few who are aware of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. In the end, as we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. If they really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." They'll expend an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". All >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing nothing. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not? >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Already explained. >> >>>>>>>>>>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested >>>>>>>>>>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence. >> >>>>>>>>>> I sure have. >> >>>>>>>>> You will not substantiate this claim. >> >>>>>>>> I already have done. You're just trying to waste my time. >> >>>>>>> You have not, >> >>>>>> I have, and you know quite well how. You're just trying to waste my >>>>>> time; you can **** off instead. >> >>>>> As usual >> >>>> As usual, I'm right. >> >>> You certainly appear to be >> >> Yes. > > So, did you do anything worthwhile today? Yes. |
suffering reduction
On Apr 6, 7:05*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 4/6/2012 9:22 AM, Rupert wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 6, 6:10 pm, George > *wrote: > >> On 4/6/2012 8:51 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>> On Apr 6, 5:46 pm, George > * *wrote: > >>>> On 4/6/2012 8:27 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>> On Apr 6, 5:16 pm, George > * * *wrote: > >>>>>> On 4/6/2012 7:38 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>> On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, George > * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. *Most claim > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. *Those few who are aware of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. *In the end, as we > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. *So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. *If they really > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. *Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." *They'll expend an > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * * * The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". *All > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing nothing. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not? > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Already explained. > > >>>>>>>>>>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested > >>>>>>>>>>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence. > > >>>>>>>>>> I sure have. > > >>>>>>>>> You will not substantiate this claim. > > >>>>>>>> I already have done. *You're just trying to waste my time. > > >>>>>>> You have not, > > >>>>>> I have, and you know quite well how. *You're just trying to waste my > >>>>>> time; you can **** off instead. > > >>>>> As usual > > >>>> As usual, I'm right. > > >>> You certainly appear to be > > >> Yes. > > > So, did you do anything worthwhile today? > > Yes. What did you do? |
suffering reduction
On 4/6/2012 10:19 AM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 6, 7:05 pm, George > wrote: >> On 4/6/2012 9:22 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Apr 6, 6:10 pm, George > wrote: >>>> On 4/6/2012 8:51 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>> On Apr 6, 5:46 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:27 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:16 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 7:38 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. Most claim >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. Those few who are aware of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. In the end, as we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. If they really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." They'll expend an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". All >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing nothing. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not? >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Already explained. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested >>>>>>>>>>>>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence. >> >>>>>>>>>>>> I sure have. >> >>>>>>>>>>> You will not substantiate this claim. >> >>>>>>>>>> I already have done. You're just trying to waste my time. >> >>>>>>>>> You have not, >> >>>>>>>> I have, and you know quite well how. You're just trying to waste my >>>>>>>> time; you can **** off instead. >> >>>>>>> As usual >> >>>>>> As usual, I'm right. >> >>>>> You certainly appear to be >> >>>> Yes. >> >>> So, did you do anything worthwhile today? >> >> Yes. > > What did you do? Spent time with my son, focusing on his education (moral growth.) You're too self-absorbed ever to become a successful parent. |
suffering reduction
On Apr 6, 8:07*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 4/6/2012 10:19 AM, Rupert wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 6, 7:05 pm, George > *wrote: > >> On 4/6/2012 9:22 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>> On Apr 6, 6:10 pm, George > * *wrote: > >>>> On 4/6/2012 8:51 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>> On Apr 6, 5:46 pm, George > * * *wrote: > >>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:27 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:16 pm, George > * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 7:38 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, George > * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. *Most claim > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. *Those few who are aware of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. *In the end, as we > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. *So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. *If they really > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. *Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." *They'll expend an > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * * * *The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". *All > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing nothing. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Already explained. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested > >>>>>>>>>>>>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I sure have. > > >>>>>>>>>>> You will not substantiate this claim. > > >>>>>>>>>> I already have done. *You're just trying to waste my time. > > >>>>>>>>> You have not, > > >>>>>>>> I have, and you know quite well how. *You're just trying to waste my > >>>>>>>> time; you can **** off instead. > > >>>>>>> As usual > > >>>>>> As usual, I'm right. > > >>>>> You certainly appear to be > > >>>> Yes. > > >>> So, did you do anything worthwhile today? > > >> Yes. > > > What did you do? > > Spent time with my son, focusing on his education (moral growth.) > > You're too self-absorbed ever to become a successful parent. So you think I shouldn't have children then? |
suffering reduction
On 4/6/2012 12:16 PM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 6, 8:07 pm, George > wrote: >> On 4/6/2012 10:19 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Apr 6, 7:05 pm, George > wrote: >>>> On 4/6/2012 9:22 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>> On Apr 6, 6:10 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:51 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:46 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:27 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:16 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 7:38 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. Most claim >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. Those few who are aware of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. In the end, as we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. If they really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." They'll expend an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". All >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing nothing. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not? >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Already explained. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I sure have. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You will not substantiate this claim. >> >>>>>>>>>>>> I already have done. You're just trying to waste my time. >> >>>>>>>>>>> You have not, >> >>>>>>>>>> I have, and you know quite well how. You're just trying to waste my >>>>>>>>>> time; you can **** off instead. >> >>>>>>>>> As usual >> >>>>>>>> As usual, I'm right. >> >>>>>>> You certainly appear to be >> >>>>>> Yes. >> >>>>> So, did you do anything worthwhile today? >> >>>> Yes. >> >>> What did you do? >> >> Spent time with my son, focusing on his education (moral growth.) >> >> You're too self-absorbed ever to become a successful parent. > > So you think I shouldn't have children then? Probably not. |
suffering reduction
On Apr 6, 12:07*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 4/6/2012 10:19 AM, Rupert wrote: > > > > > > > On Apr 6, 7:05 pm, George > *wrote: > >> On 4/6/2012 9:22 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>> On Apr 6, 6:10 pm, George > * *wrote: > >>>> On 4/6/2012 8:51 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>> On Apr 6, 5:46 pm, George > * * *wrote: > >>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:27 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:16 pm, George > * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 7:38 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, George > * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. *Most claim > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. *Those few who are aware of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. *In the end, as we > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. *So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. *If they really > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. *Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." *They'll expend an > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * * * *The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". *All > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing nothing. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Already explained. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested > >>>>>>>>>>>>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I sure have. > > >>>>>>>>>>> You will not substantiate this claim. > > >>>>>>>>>> I already have done. *You're just trying to waste my time. > > >>>>>>>>> You have not, > > >>>>>>>> I have, and you know quite well how. *You're just trying to waste my > >>>>>>>> time; you can **** off instead. > > >>>>>>> As usual > > >>>>>> As usual, I'm right. > > >>>>> You certainly appear to be > > >>>> Yes. > > >>> So, did you do anything worthwhile today? > > >> Yes. > > > What did you do? > > Spent time with my son, focusing on his education (moral growth.) > > You're too self-absorbed ever to become a successful parent. Bet he can't wait till he's 21 so he can have you committed. |
suffering reduction
On Apr 6, 11:47*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 4/6/2012 12:16 PM, Rupert wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 6, 8:07 pm, George > *wrote: > >> On 4/6/2012 10:19 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>> On Apr 6, 7:05 pm, George > * *wrote: > >>>> On 4/6/2012 9:22 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>> On Apr 6, 6:10 pm, George > * * *wrote: > >>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:51 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:46 pm, George > * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:27 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:16 pm, George > * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 7:38 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, George > * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. *Most claim > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. *Those few who are aware of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. *In the end, as we > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. *So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. *If they really > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done....nor does any "vegan" > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. *Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." *They'll expend an > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * * * * The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". *All > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing nothing. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Already explained. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I sure have. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> You will not substantiate this claim. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I already have done. *You're just trying to waste my time. > > >>>>>>>>>>> You have not, > > >>>>>>>>>> I have, and you know quite well how. *You're just trying to waste my > >>>>>>>>>> time; you can **** off instead. > > >>>>>>>>> As usual > > >>>>>>>> As usual, I'm right. > > >>>>>>> You certainly appear to be > > >>>>>> Yes. > > >>>>> So, did you do anything worthwhile today? > > >>>> Yes. > > >>> What did you do? > > >> Spent time with my son, focusing on his education (moral growth.) > > >> You're too self-absorbed ever to become a successful parent. > > > So you think I shouldn't have children then? > > Probably not. So, what moral lessons were you trying to teach your son? |
suffering reduction
On 4/7/2012 1:35 AM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 6, 11:47 pm, George > wrote: >> On 4/6/2012 12:16 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Apr 6, 8:07 pm, George > wrote: >>>> On 4/6/2012 10:19 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>> On Apr 6, 7:05 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>> On 4/6/2012 9:22 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>> On Apr 6, 6:10 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:51 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:46 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:27 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:16 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 7:38 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. Most claim >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. Those few who are aware of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. In the end, as we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. If they really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." They'll expend an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". All >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing nothing. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not? >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Already explained. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I sure have. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You will not substantiate this claim. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I already have done. You're just trying to waste my time. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You have not, >> >>>>>>>>>>>> I have, and you know quite well how. You're just trying to waste my >>>>>>>>>>>> time; you can **** off instead. >> >>>>>>>>>>> As usual >> >>>>>>>>>> As usual, I'm right. >> >>>>>>>>> You certainly appear to be >> >>>>>>>> Yes. >> >>>>>>> So, did you do anything worthwhile today? >> >>>>>> Yes. >> >>>>> What did you do? >> >>>> Spent time with my son, focusing on his education (moral growth.) >> >>>> You're too self-absorbed ever to become a successful parent. >> >>> So you think I shouldn't have children then? >> >> Probably not. > > So, what moral lessons were you trying to teach your son? You really shouldn't have children, woopert. Because of your self-absorption, you'd most likely be a horrible parent. |
suffering reduction
On Apr 7, 10:04*am, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 4/7/2012 1:35 AM, Rupert wrote: > > > > > > > On Apr 6, 11:47 pm, George > *wrote: > >> On 4/6/2012 12:16 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>> On Apr 6, 8:07 pm, George > * *wrote: > >>>> On 4/6/2012 10:19 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>> On Apr 6, 7:05 pm, George > * * *wrote: > >>>>>> On 4/6/2012 9:22 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>> On Apr 6, 6:10 pm, George > * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:51 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:46 pm, George > * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:27 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:16 pm, George > * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 7:38 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, George > * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. *Most claim > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. *Those few who are aware of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. *In the end, as we > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. *So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. *If they really > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done....nor does any "vegan" > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. *Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." *They'll expend an > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * * * * *The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". *All > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing nothing. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Already explained. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I sure have. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You will not substantiate this claim. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I already have done. *You're just trying to waste my time. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> You have not, > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I have, and you know quite well how. *You're just trying to waste my > >>>>>>>>>>>> time; you can **** off instead. > > >>>>>>>>>>> As usual > > >>>>>>>>>> As usual, I'm right. > > >>>>>>>>> You certainly appear to be > > >>>>>>>> Yes. > > >>>>>>> So, did you do anything worthwhile today? > > >>>>>> Yes. > > >>>>> What did you do? > > >>>> Spent time with my son, focusing on his education (moral growth.) > > >>>> You're too self-absorbed ever to become a successful parent. > > >>> So you think I shouldn't have children then? > > >> Probably not. > > > So, what moral lessons were you trying to teach your son? > > You really shouldn't have children, woopert. *Because of your > self-absorption, you'd most likely be a horrible parent. Were you teaching him not to lie on newsgroups? |
suffering reduction
On Apr 7, 6:04*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 4/7/2012 1:35 AM, Rupert wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 6, 11:47 pm, George > *wrote: > >> On 4/6/2012 12:16 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>> On Apr 6, 8:07 pm, George > * *wrote: > >>>> On 4/6/2012 10:19 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>> On Apr 6, 7:05 pm, George > * * *wrote: > >>>>>> On 4/6/2012 9:22 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>> On Apr 6, 6:10 pm, George > * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:51 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:46 pm, George > * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:27 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:16 pm, George > * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 7:38 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, George > * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. *Most claim > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. *Those few who are aware of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. *In the end, as we > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. *So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. *If they really > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done....nor does any "vegan" > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. *Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." *They'll expend an > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * * * * *The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". *All > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing nothing. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Already explained. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I sure have. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You will not substantiate this claim. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I already have done. *You're just trying to waste my time. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> You have not, > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I have, and you know quite well how. *You're just trying to waste my > >>>>>>>>>>>> time; you can **** off instead. > > >>>>>>>>>>> As usual > > >>>>>>>>>> As usual, I'm right. > > >>>>>>>>> You certainly appear to be > > >>>>>>>> Yes. > > >>>>>>> So, did you do anything worthwhile today? > > >>>>>> Yes. > > >>>>> What did you do? > > >>>> Spent time with my son, focusing on his education (moral growth.) > > >>>> You're too self-absorbed ever to become a successful parent. > > >>> So you think I shouldn't have children then? > > >> Probably not. > > > So, what moral lessons were you trying to teach your son? > > You really shouldn't have children, woopert. *Because of your > self-absorption, you'd most likely be a horrible parent. That's an interesting view you've got. What led you to the conclusion that I was self-absorbed? |
suffering reduction
On 4/8/2012 1:50 AM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 7, 6:04 pm, George > wrote: >> On 4/7/2012 1:35 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Apr 6, 11:47 pm, George > wrote: >>>> On 4/6/2012 12:16 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>> On Apr 6, 8:07 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>> On 4/6/2012 10:19 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>> On Apr 6, 7:05 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 9:22 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 6:10 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:51 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:46 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:27 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:16 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 7:38 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. Most claim >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. Those few who are aware of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. In the end, as we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. If they really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." They'll expend an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". All >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing nothing. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not? >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Already explained. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I sure have. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You will not substantiate this claim. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I already have done. You're just trying to waste my time. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have not, >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have, and you know quite well how. You're just trying to waste my >>>>>>>>>>>>>> time; you can **** off instead. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> As usual >> >>>>>>>>>>>> As usual, I'm right. >> >>>>>>>>>>> You certainly appear to be >> >>>>>>>>>> Yes. >> >>>>>>>>> So, did you do anything worthwhile today? >> >>>>>>>> Yes. >> >>>>>>> What did you do? >> >>>>>> Spent time with my son, focusing on his education (moral growth.) >> >>>>>> You're too self-absorbed ever to become a successful parent. >> >>>>> So you think I shouldn't have children then? >> >>>> Probably not. >> >>> So, what moral lessons were you trying to teach your son? >> >> You really shouldn't have children, woopert. Because of your >> self-absorption, you'd most likely be a horrible parent. > > That's an interesting view you've got. What led you to the conclusion > that I was self-absorbed? Your statements here. |
suffering reduction
On Apr 8, 5:22*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 4/8/2012 1:50 AM, Rupert wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 7, 6:04 pm, George > *wrote: > >> On 4/7/2012 1:35 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>> On Apr 6, 11:47 pm, George > * *wrote: > >>>> On 4/6/2012 12:16 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>> On Apr 6, 8:07 pm, George > * * *wrote: > >>>>>> On 4/6/2012 10:19 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>> On Apr 6, 7:05 pm, George > * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 9:22 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 6:10 pm, George > * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:51 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:46 pm, George > * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:27 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:16 pm, George > * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 7:38 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, George > * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. *Most claim > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. *Those few who are aware of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. *In the end, as we > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. *So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. *If they really > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. *Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." *They'll expend an > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * * * * * The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". *All > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing nothing. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Already explained. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I sure have. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You will not substantiate this claim. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I already have done. *You're just trying to waste my time. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have not, > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have, and you know quite well how. *You're just trying to waste my > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> time; you can **** off instead. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> As usual > > >>>>>>>>>>>> As usual, I'm right. > > >>>>>>>>>>> You certainly appear to be > > >>>>>>>>>> Yes. > > >>>>>>>>> So, did you do anything worthwhile today? > > >>>>>>>> Yes. > > >>>>>>> What did you do? > > >>>>>> Spent time with my son, focusing on his education (moral growth.) > > >>>>>> You're too self-absorbed ever to become a successful parent. > > >>>>> So you think I shouldn't have children then? > > >>>> Probably not. > > >>> So, what moral lessons were you trying to teach your son? > > >> You really shouldn't have children, woopert. *Because of your > >> self-absorption, you'd most likely be a horrible parent. > > > That's an interesting view you've got. What led you to the conclusion > > that I was self-absorbed? > > Your statements here. Which ones? |
suffering reduction
On 4/8/2012 9:52 AM, Rupert wrote:
> On Apr 8, 5:22 pm, George > wrote: >> On 4/8/2012 1:50 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Apr 7, 6:04 pm, George > wrote: >>>> On 4/7/2012 1:35 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>> On Apr 6, 11:47 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>> On 4/6/2012 12:16 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>> On Apr 6, 8:07 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 10:19 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 7:05 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 9:22 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 6:10 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:51 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:46 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:27 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:16 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 7:38 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. Most claim >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. Those few who are aware of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. In the end, as we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. If they really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." They'll expend an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". All >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing nothing. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not? >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Already explained. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I sure have. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You will not substantiate this claim. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I already have done. You're just trying to waste my time. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have not, >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have, and you know quite well how. You're just trying to waste my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time; you can **** off instead. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As usual >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> As usual, I'm right. >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You certainly appear to be >> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes. >> >>>>>>>>>>> So, did you do anything worthwhile today? >> >>>>>>>>>> Yes. >> >>>>>>>>> What did you do? >> >>>>>>>> Spent time with my son, focusing on his education (moral growth.) >> >>>>>>>> You're too self-absorbed ever to become a successful parent. >> >>>>>>> So you think I shouldn't have children then? >> >>>>>> Probably not. >> >>>>> So, what moral lessons were you trying to teach your son? >> >>>> You really shouldn't have children, woopert. Because of your >>>> self-absorption, you'd most likely be a horrible parent. >> >>> That's an interesting view you've got. What led you to the conclusion >>> that I was self-absorbed? >> >> Your statements here. > > Which ones? All. |
suffering reduction
On Apr 8, 11:12*am, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 4/8/2012 9:52 AM, Rupert wrote: > > > > > > > On Apr 8, 5:22 pm, George > *wrote: > >> On 4/8/2012 1:50 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>> On Apr 7, 6:04 pm, George > * *wrote: > >>>> On 4/7/2012 1:35 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>> On Apr 6, 11:47 pm, George > * * *wrote: > >>>>>> On 4/6/2012 12:16 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>> On Apr 6, 8:07 pm, George > * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 10:19 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 7:05 pm, George > * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 9:22 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 6:10 pm, George > * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:51 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:46 pm, George > * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 8:27 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:16 pm, George > * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/6/2012 7:38 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 3:57 pm, George > * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 10:17 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 5:53 am, George > * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 8:19 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 11:15 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 1:32 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:55 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:53 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 9:33 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 12:14 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 5, 8:06 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/5/2012 4:43 AM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 4, 10:17 pm, George > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 4/3/2012 10:04 PM, Rupert wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ball has been talking a lot lately about how it could conceivably be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that some people would not reduce suffering by going vegan or would > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly even increase suffering. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [snip remaining self-serving wheeze] > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The first problem is "vegans" - all of them - always claim too much > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> merely by virtue of not putting animal bits in their mouths. *Most claim > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be living "cruelty free" lifestyles. *Those few who are aware of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animal CDs in agriculture abandon the silly "cruelty free" claim, but > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall back on something equally untenable such as "minimizing" or "doing > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the best I can", when in fact they're doing neither. *In the end, as we > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have always seen, they can do *no* better than to claim, "At least I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing better than meat eaters", and as we have shown, even that is not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *necessarily* true. *So, the "vegan" claim to virtue is baseless. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The second problem is that refraining from putting animal bits in their > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mouths is *all* that the vast majority of "vegans" do. *If they really > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were interested in trying to achieve the greatest reduction in harm to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals they could, we'd expect to see some investigation into which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegetable and fruit crops are relatively lower in terms of harm to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> animals, and a substitution of those in place of higher-harm produce, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but *NO* such investigation has ever been done...nor does any "vegan" > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> care to do it. *Yet they *all* engage in what I long ago dubbed the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "irrational search for micrograms (of animal parts)." *They'll expend an > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absurd amount of time looking for the micrograms of squid ink in brined > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> black olives, or the milligram of anchovy in a bottle of Worcestershire > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sauce, but not a bit of time getting high-CD produce out of their diets. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * * * * * * * * *The irrational search for micrograms, in which *ALL* "vegans" engage, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is the proof of the bankruptcy of their moral pose - and it *is* nothing > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more than a pose. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This leads to the sound conclusion that "vegans" aren't really > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interested in harm reduction nor in respecting animals' "rights". *All > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're interested in is a moral stance, one in which they can flatter > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves with the belief they're "better" than others. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are engaging in sweeping generalisations about all vegans which > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are obviously not defensible. Different vegans are motivated to be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vegan for different reasons. It is not the case that all vegans engage > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the "irrational search for micrograms". > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no rational grounds for thinking that vegans are not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> genuinely interested in harm reduction. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I do, because when it is shown that they cannot validly conclude what > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they do about the meaning of refraining from putting animal bits in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mouths, they just keep on making their discredited claims and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doing nothing. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is it that you think they conclude about the meaning of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> refraining from eating animal products? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've been over all that with you before. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Suppose they conclude that they've made some efforts to reduce the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of suffering that takes place in order to produce their food, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and furthermore that they've done about all they can do in that regard > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short of extreme measures. Isn't that a reasonable conclusion? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because it's not supported by the evidence. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why not? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Already explained. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have never given a satisfactory explanation of why my suggested > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conclusion is not supported by the evidence. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I sure have. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You will not substantiate this claim. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I already have done. *You're just trying to waste my time. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have not, > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have, and you know quite well how. *You're just trying to waste my > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time; you can **** off instead. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As usual > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> As usual, I'm right. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> You certainly appear to be > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes. > > >>>>>>>>>>> So, did you do anything worthwhile today? > > >>>>>>>>>> Yes. > > >>>>>>>>> What did you do? > > >>>>>>>> Spent time with my son, focusing on his education (moral growth.) > > >>>>>>>> You're too self-absorbed ever to become a successful parent. > > >>>>>>> So you think I shouldn't have children then? > > >>>>>> Probably not. > > >>>>> So, what moral lessons were you trying to teach your son? > > >>>> You really shouldn't have children, woopert. *Because of your > >>>> self-absorption, you'd most likely be a horrible parent. > > >>> That's an interesting view you've got. What led you to the conclusion > >>> that I was self-absorbed? > > >> Your statements here. > > > Which ones? > > All. Cite an example. |
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