Vegan (alt.food.vegan) This newsgroup exists to share ideas and issues of concern among vegans. We are always happy to share our recipes- perhaps especially with omnivores who are simply curious- or even better, accomodating a vegan guest for a meal!

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Old 25-03-2012, 05:43 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animals,alt.food.vegan,alt.food.vegan.science
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"Glen" wrote
*LOL*


Pure ad hominem.




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Old 25-03-2012, 05:48 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animals,alt.food.vegan,alt.food.vegan.science
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On 25/03/2012 17:39, Dutch wrote:

wrote
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 02:22:30 -0700, wrote:

[]
Raising animals for food is not evil


You believe it is.


No, I don't.


*LOL*

[snip elaborate fallacy]


*LOL* You're a totally busted liar.
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Old 25-03-2012, 05:50 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animals,alt.food.vegan,alt.food.vegan.science
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On 25/03/2012 17:43, Dutch wrote:
wrote
*LOL*


Pure ad hominem.

Why do you think Jonathan Ball tried to pretend he had a Ph.D in economics little Ditch? Why did he
lie. Why do *YOU* lie?

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Old 25-03-2012, 05:56 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animals,alt.food.vegan,alt.food.vegan.science
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"Glen" wrote
And *better* than those who don't recycle. You admitted it.


Vegans don't simply argue that avoiding animal products is "better" (by some
quantitative measure), that is a probably reasonable claim, generally
speaking. No, they believe in their hearts that the difference between being
a vegan and consuming animal products is analogous to the difference between
having paid employees and keeping slaves. They perceive a huge moral gulf
between themselves and the "murderers" around them (their term, not mine)
They believe that one must be a vegan to to be a truly moral person.

This is the notion, fundamental to veganism, that has been thoroughly
discredited over and over again on this newsgroup, and that is the reason
that you vegans continue to hang around desperately hoping to *win* by
getting in some last chance ad hominem attack.




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Old 25-03-2012, 06:00 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animals,alt.food.vegan,alt.food.vegan.science
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On 25/03/2012 17:56, Dutch wrote:
wrote
And *better* than those who don't recycle. You admitted it.


Vegans


*HA HA HA HA HA* You know what? I didn't read any of that liar?


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Old 25-03-2012, 06:05 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animals,alt.food.vegan,alt.food.vegan.science
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"Glen" wrote in message ...
On 25/03/2012 17:39, Dutch wrote:

wrote
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 02:22:30 -0700, wrote:

[]
Raising animals for food is not evil

You believe it is.


No, I don't.


*LOL*


I obviously don't, we're talking about MY opinion, and if I am the final
arbiter of anything it is that.

[snip elaborate fallacy]


*LOL* You're a totally busted liar.


Nobody tells the truth all the time, nobody. Most people lie several times a
day. You're just not aware of it. Do some reading on the subject. There is
usually a perfectly sensible reason for it. In my case, I have referred to
"my kids" without stipulating that they are hypothetical ("if"), because it
would have added nothing to what I was saying. I was still simply giving my
opinion.

In any case, even if I believed that eating meat was evil at one point in
time, I kind of did because I was a vegan, that does not mean I believe it
now. In fact I don't, I WOKE UP. That's the fallacy I'm talking about. Derek
fancies himself an authority on formal fallacies yet he regularly commits
the most basic ones.

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Old 25-03-2012, 06:11 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animals,alt.food.vegan,alt.food.vegan.science
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"Glen" wrote
On 25/03/2012 17:43, Dutch wrote:
wrote
*LOL*


Pure ad hominem.

Why do you think Jonathan Ball tried to pretend he had a Ph.D in economics
little Ditch?


"little Ditch" isn't that cute.. You're quite the little flame warrior now
aren't you? LOL

Why did he
lie. Why do *YOU* lie?


There are many reasons to occasionally embellish or say something that is
not quite factual, we all do it, quite frequently actually, that is a well
know fact among sociologists. For example, if you try to deny it, you'll be
lying.

But this hasn't gotten you any closer to establishing the moral necessity of
veganism, that's what you want to prove isn't it?

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Old 25-03-2012, 06:12 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animals,alt.food.vegan,alt.food.vegan.science
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"Glen" wrote in message ...
On 25/03/2012 17:56, Dutch wrote:
wrote
And *better* than those who don't recycle. You admitted it.


Vegans


*HA HA HA HA HA* You know what? I didn't read any of that liar?


That's typical of a vegan, so not surprising.
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Old 25-03-2012, 06:16 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animals,alt.food.vegan,alt.food.vegan.science
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"Derek" wrote
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 09:56:54 -0700, "Dutch" wrote:

"Glen" wrote
And *better* than those who don't recycle. You admitted it.


Vegans


You don't get to criticise


Yes I do, and you get to listen and writhe and gnash your teeth and attempt
to silence me by compiling great elaborate loads of ad hominem nonsense, but
its futile old chop, I'm here, I've got your number, and there's nothing you
can do about it.





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Old 25-03-2012, 06:27 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animals,alt.food.vegan,alt.food.vegan.science
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"Derek" wrote

What's left here Derek?


Not a lot. I'll grant you that.


It was a colossal waste of effort, there isn't one person in the world who
cares about any of that who doesn't already have blinders on anyway.

So who ARE you, Glen, and why did you copy and paste parts of my
private email to you here?


Because he's an idiot, isn't that obvious?





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Old 25-03-2012, 06:31 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animals,alt.food.vegan,alt.food.vegan.science
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On 25/03/2012 18:11, Dutch wrote:
wrote
On 25/03/2012 17:43, Dutch wrote:
wrote
*LOL*

Pure ad hominem.

Why do you think Jonathan Ball tried to pretend he had a Ph.D in economics
little Ditch?


"little Ditch" isn't that cute.. You're quite the little flame warrior now
aren't you? LOL


Answer. Why did Jonathan Ball lie by pretending he has a PH.D in economics?

Why did he
lie. Why do *YOU* lie?


There are many reasons to occasionally embellish or say something that is
not quite factual


You didn't /embellish/ something not quite factual. You lied --- about *EVERYTHING* countless times.

we all do it, quite frequently actually


No. You sure do though. *LOL*
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Old 25-03-2012, 06:36 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animals,alt.food.vegan,alt.food.vegan.science
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On 25/03/2012 18:17, Derek wrote:
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 17:16:33 +0100, wrote:

On 25/03/2012 12:19, Derek wrote:
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 02:22:30 -0700, wrote:

[]
Raising animals for food is not evil

You believe it is.

"Because farm animals are sentient beings, and
forcing them through this mass production
assembly line "concentration camp" process is
cruel. We put innocent farm animals through
processes of suffering and early death that we
wouldn't subject the most heinous human
criminal to."
Dutch Dec 27 2000 http://tinyurl.com/6wjl2o2

There's not a single issue raised here in all the years you've been
trying to bash those you've tried but failed to aspire to that you
haven't lied about.

Note to Glen.

Dutch lies about everything. Everything! He first came here claiming
to be an advocate for the proposition of animal rights.

*Animal Rights.*

"I am an animal rights believer."
Dutch 12 Feb 2001 http://tinyurl.com/4ybt3

and

"My contention is that 'animal rights' have sprouted
like branches from the tree of "HUMAN RIGHTS".
They are derivative. They reflect from a) what our
own rights are b) to what degree and how we value
the animal or species."
Dutch 23 Feb 2001 http://tinyurl.com/3ljkh

But within just a few months he started writing
things like;

"They have no rights because the very idea of
a world of animals with rights is a laugh."
Dutch 7 Aug 2001 http://tinyurl.com/6wffc

and

"Well, I don't believe in the idea of animal rights, I
find it irrational ."
Dutch 28 Aug 2002 http://tinyurl.com/47wy4

But then he switched back again, accepting the
proposition of animal rights and claiming to have
signed a petition in support for it to the Canadian
government.

"I recently signed a petition online supporting
an 'animal rights' bill in Canadian parliament."
Dutch 18 Sept 2003 http://tinyurl.com/5aaxn

and later;

"Rights for animals exist because human rights
exist. If human rights did not exist, rights for
animals would not exist."
Dutch Sun, 18 Apr 2004 http://tinyurl.com/3s6pz

and

"If they are inherent in humans then why are
they not in some way inherent in all animals?
I think rights are a human invention which we
apply widely to humans and in specific ways in
certain situations to other animals."
...
"There is no coherent reason why humans ought
to be prohibited from extending some form of
rights towards animals in their care."
...
"I am firmly on flat ground. Human created rights,
we apply them to all humans at birth, and we apply
versions of them to certain animals in limited ways
within our sphere of influence."
Dutch 18 May 2005 http://tinyurl.com/bu7nb

and

"I measure my right to be free from physical assault
by looking if laws and sanctions exist against anyone
who would assault me. Such laws and sanctions exist
to protect domestic animals from abuse, so I must
conclude that they hold rights against humans who
would abuse them."
Dutch Sep 20 2005 http://tinyurl.com/9g3yp

and

"Animals can be "moral patients", in a similar
way as minor children or people in comas.
They can hold rights against us, but we can't
hold rights against them."
Dutch 24 Sep 2005 http://tinyurl.com/cpxhx

and

"I would hold in fact that this is so plausible that apes
should be granted basic rights."
Dutch 7 July 2007 http://tinyurl.com/328k8h

And then back again,

"I'm not an ARA."
Dutch 19 Jul 2007 http://tinyurl.com/253nlg

And back again

"I believe that it is defensible to say that an animal
that is protected by laws and morals from being
attacked in some way by a human holds a right
against humans."
Dutch 16 Oct 2011 http://tinyurl.com/3rdntg8

*His diet on factory-farmed meat:*

In the year 2000 Dutch claimed to have become a
vegetarian 20 years ago.

"i am a vegetarian because it IS the most healthy
diet FOR ME. i cured a bunch of chronic health
problems by quitting meat 20 years ago."
Dutch Nov 14 2000 http://tinyurl.com/cga8x

But then a year later he claimed to have been a
vegetarian for only 15 years when in fact according
to his earlier quote it should then have been 21 years.

"I am a 15 year lacto-ovo vegetarian, a diet I chose for
health reasons. Meat has certain properties that disagree
with me, I don't know exactly what it is, but it's OK,
because I enjoy spectacularly good health ...."
"Dutch" 19 Mar 2001 http://tinyurl.com/4pqjq

And then only a week later the forgetful liar claimed
to have been vegetarian for 17 years.

"I can't even look at meat anymore after 17 years .."
Dutch 27 Mar 2001 http://tinyurl.com/5emp2

So it's certain that he's always lied about when and
for how long he was a vegetarian. Now let's look at
his reasons given for why he became a vegetarian.

"I find sufficient evidence of poor practises in
commercial meat production that I refuse to
eat meat produced in this way. In fact for this
and health reasons I eat no meat at all."
Dutch Dec 3 2000 http://tinyurl.com/d49aa

and

"Since I cannot in all good conscience tolerate
the treatment of animals in the mass meat
industry I choose not not eat it."
Dutch Dec 20 2000 http://tinyurl.com/9vc2o

and

"Because farm animals are sentient beings, and
forcing them through this mass production
assembly line "concentration camp" process is
cruel. We put innocent farm animals through
processes of suffering and early death that we
wouldn't subject the most heinous human
criminal to."
Dutch Dec 27 2000 http://tinyurl.com/6wjl2o2

But those statements concerning his "good conscience"
were obvious lies because he DOES eat meat from
those factory farms he claimed to avoid.

"I buy what is readily available, and I assume
a lot of it comes from factory farms."
[end]
Dutch Dec 15 2003 http://tinyurl.com/8w25v

[frlpwr to Dutch]
Why do you buy factory-farmed pork products?
[Dutch]
The same reason vegans buy factory farmed veggies,
because they're there.
[end]
Dutch Jan 27 2004 http://tinyurl.com/8qhrf

*Logic of the larder:*

[start Dutch]
Pigs and cows are domesticated animals that
we create, breed and raise, giving them a life
as David ([email protected]) says, in exchange for the use of
their hides. We give them life. They give us their
lives, and our lifestyles. It's a mutually beneficial
contract, which I believe includes treating them
with respect. The only contract I have with mice
is you get out of my grain and I won't kill you.
Isn't that the way YOU look at mice? Maybe
we're not so different after all.
Dutch 20 Jan 2001 http://tinyurl.com/34jzhm9
[Polly]
Although we know there's no literal "contract", I
do like your way of stating the fact that both humans
and animals benefit from the animals' domestication.
[Dutch]
Thanks. I am beginning to find myself quoting David..
who'da thunk???
Dutch 21 Jan 2001 http://tinyurl.com/2jdml

and

"The cow is our benefactor in a mutually beneficial
partnership."
Dutch http://tinyurl.com/2wlu8

and

"Here's how I see it...
The fact that we raise them to kill them for food places
us irrevocably in their debt. By treating them kindly and
killing them humanely we may only approach making it
a square deal, but we can never get there."
Dutch Feb 26 2006 http://tinyurl.com/jhcg8

and

"The LoL is the belief that because by using animal
products we indirectly cause animals to come into
existence that we are entitled to use these animals'
existence (their lives) as a defence against critics of
the use of animal products.

The LoL advocate can still claim to be doing something
morally admirable by eating a burger."
Dutch July 3 2010 http://tinyurl.com/387kk4u

*Collateral Deaths:*

"There is a whole different mindset between tolerating
collateral death in your life and seeking out direct
sacrifice for your subsistence."
Dutch Aug 26 2000 http://tinyurl.com/7dduf

and

"The recognition of collateral deaths does one thing, it
enables you to dismiss blanket claims by veg*ns that
their diet causes no deaths or animal suffering. Antis
attempt to parlay this into completely discrediting veg*n
diet claims. Since the phenomenon is virtually
unmeasurable the argument lacks fundamental credibility.
It therefore should not detract from veg*n beliefs that the
v*gan diet causes less animal suffering."
Dutch Dec 13 2000 http://tinyurl.com/yw2zf

and

"It's not that easy banmilk. Nobody doubts that animals
die in agriculture except people in complete denial. What
you must do is somehow rationalize that 'fact' with your
philosophy. It's not hard to do really, just admit you don't
care much about those animals. You don't do you? I don't."
Dutch 6 Feb 2001 http://tinyurl.com/53pjh

As we can plainly see, Dutch doesn't believe that the
collateral deaths argument carries any weight against
vegans; he's merely trying to attack those he tried but
failed to aspire to.

*Delusions:*

Dutch is a self-confessed delusional who invents things all the
time. When first arriving here he did so while seemingly in
support for the proposition of animal rights, but that facade
was soon blown away, and now he tries to insist that the
genuine proponents of it here must be as deluded as he is.

"I did find deluding myself quite comfortable, after
all who was it hurting?"
Dutch as 'apostate' Mar 17 2002 http://tinyurl.com/cmhpo

and

"The reason I left AR is precisely that I DON'T
feel comfortable *knowingly* deluding myself.
Dutch as 'apostate' Mar 19 2002 http://tinyurl.com/7ndj6

and

"Deluding myself felt good"
Dutch Jun 4 2005 http://tinyurl.com/94eq3

and

"I do have some personal experience with cognitive
dissonance, I experienced it, and at the point when
I finally consciously confronted the underlying
conflict I experienced a kind of physical discomfort
in the brain, a dizziness and a buzzing in my ears,
followed shortly by a kind of feeling of relief and
elevated mental clarity. The brain will attempt to
punish you to stop you from threatening the existing
belief"
Dutch 29 Jul 2007 http://tinyurl.com/3ahp69

*Unethical Practices to Avoid:*

Dutch lies about everything. Take a look at his categorical
statements regarding the use of unethical treatments and
how he lies his way out of standing by them by praying to
God for his failure.

"I categorically refuse to use any treatment shown
to have been developed using human subjects
against their will."
Dutch Nov 26 2002 http://tinyurl.com/ppzvj

and

"If modern medicine were built on the use of
unwilling humans, I would certainly refuse it."
Dutch Nov 28 2002 http://tinyurl.com/sx9po

But, after being told that most modern practices were
perfected using unethical means, he acknowledged this
fact by stating;

"I know now that abuse of human subjects forms part of the
history of medical research, but I don't know when or how
much or which treatments were involved. I feel like I ought
to try to research the history of each treatment and medicine
before using it, surely that is the right thing to do is it not?"
Dutch Nov 28 2002 http://tinyurl.com/f5wgz

To keep his integrity by avoiding these unethical practices
like he earlier promised, I told him he ought to write a list
of the treatments to avoid, but he collapsed instead and
simpered.

[Me]
Also, what efforts have you made to list the *on-going"
unethical practices to avoid?
[Dutch]
None at all. I have already said, I can't face the task.
[end]
Dutch Nov 30 2002 http://tinyurl.com/m4a4e

I pressed him further to make that list or risk being
labeled a hypocrite, but in desperation he opted to
beg God for forgiveness instead.

[Me]
"You now know that humans were killed to perfect your
treatments. If you choose to believe that these violations
transcend to you as an accessory after the fact you must
avoid being hypocritical and stand by your ethical stance
by avoiding every treatment that was perfected using
human subjects against their will."
[Dutch]
"I don't have the strength. I choose to accept that some
humans may have been wronged in the development of
my treatments. If there is a god, I beg his forgiveness for
my frailty."
Dutch Nov 30 2002 http://tinyurl.com/fz9nl

Dutch is an unethical liar with no backbone who makes
categorical statements only to then dismiss them when
pushed to stand by them.

*His kids:*

"The land goes back in my wife's family quite a few
generations and making something like this out of it
would be grand, **we have no kids** to leave it to."
Dutch Oct 22 2001 http://tinyurl.com/yk8qoh

and

"My wife and I had two kids .. "
Dutch Jun 30 2003 http://tinyurl.com/ssm99

and

"As I have mentioned here before, failure to thrive is
one of vegetarianism's dirty little secrets. I have
experienced it first- hand, my family returned to eating
meat after 18 years as vegetarians because of it."
Dutch Aug 5 2004 http://tinyurl.com/yd5u5a

and

"During my wife's pregnancies *I* ended up doing
most of the housework ..."
Dutch Jan 19 2006 http://tinyurl.com/yz4dsw

and

"No child is born into ideal circumstances. Were you?
I sure wasn't. My wife wasn't, neither were my kids."
Dutch Feb 20 2006 http://tinyurl.com/yb4dhz

and

"I don't want my kids seeing cancer surgery or videos
of assaults or anything that might cause them undue
emotional distress. They're children."
Dutch Jun 30 2006 http://tinyurl.com/ybu8kq

and

"I never forced my kids to be vegetarians, and they
weren't, [because I never had kids].
Dutch Oct 17 2006 http://tinyurl.com/y9trhd

and

[start - Pearl to Dutch]
Of course I DON'T believe you. No one does. How could we.
You LIED about having CHILDREN, for heaven's sake. GLL!
[Dutch replied]
Nobody tells the whole truth all the time, and I advise strongly
not to try to claim otherwise.
[end]
Dutch Oct 23 2006 http://tinyurl.com/6psp6h7

*Abortion:*

"In fact I have been a pro-choice activist, my former
wife was a nurse in an abortion clinic for a time with
Henry Morgentaler prior to Roe v Wade. She faced
charges for it. My current wife has had an abortion."
Dutch 7 May 2006 http://tinyurl.com/28oxdg

But

[start - A.M. to Dutch]
Does your wife agree with your principles? What if
she didn't? Would you divorce her if she aborted your
child? If your wife mistakenly got pregnant and simply
did not want to committ to the full term and subsequent
child bearing, would you leave her?
[Dutch]
My wife would never kill a member of our family, not
before birth, not after. The idea is unthinkable.
[end]
Dutch 4 Dec 2002 http://tinyurl.com/3dz22p

As we can plainly see, Dutch lies about every issue that gets raised
here and in other newsgroups, so don't fall for a single word he has
to say on anything. He's a self-confessed liar.


*TOTALLY BUSTED*


Absolutely. And all that written by someone who wrote,

"You will never, ever catch me in a lie, because I don't."
Dutch Oct 16 2006 http://tinyurl.com/yxt76l

and

"All I want to do is get the respect that I feel I am due
from vegetarians."
Dutch 27 Dec 2006 http://tinyurl.com/2vg4bq


*LOL*

What's left here Derek?


Not a lot. I'll grant you that.

Dutch - a liar with no credibility, and Jonathan Ball -
another liar with no credibility who tells people he's got a Ph.D in economics, and a simple-minded
poor fool who tries to tries to justify cruelty by saying animals benefit from it. *LOL* There's not
a credible anti left to argue with.


So who ARE you, Glen, and why did you copy and paste parts of my
private email to you here?


My sincere apologies Derek. I didn't mean any damage by it. Guess we got off to a bad start, eh?
Sorry :-)
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Old 25-03-2012, 06:41 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animals,alt.food.vegan,alt.food.vegan.science
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On 25/03/2012 18:05, Dutch wrote:
wrote in message ...
On 25/03/2012 17:39, Dutch wrote:

wrote
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 02:22:30 -0700, wrote:

[]
Raising animals for food is not evil

You believe it is.

No, I don't.


*LOL*


I obviously don't,


You obviously do. They are you quotes.


[snip elaborate fallacy]


*LOL* You're a totally busted liar.


Nobody tells the truth all the time, nobody.


*HA HA HA HA HA* Take the shame like a man, fat little Ditch boy.

(snipped unread)
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Old 25-03-2012, 08:29 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animals,alt.food.vegan,alt.food.vegan.science
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On 25/03/2012 18:58, Derek wrote:
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 18:36:44 +0100, wrote:

On 25/03/2012 18:17, Derek wrote:

[]
So who ARE you, Glen, and why did you copy and paste parts of my
private email to you here?


My sincere apologies Derek. I didn't mean any damage by it.


No harm no foul, I usually say, but there was a measure of intent in
there, I assume.

Guess we got off to a bad start, eh?


I believe that "start" happened a few years ago, "Glen", so who are
you?

Sorry :-)


I'd like to believe that.


What do *YOU* have to say about this intelligent man you respect and admire so much lying about
having a Ph.D in economics St. Derek? I don't recall a single comment from you about it.
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Old 25-03-2012, 09:34 PM posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,talk.politics.animals,alt.food.vegan,alt.food.vegan.science
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"Derek" wrote
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 10:05:07 -0700, "Dutch" wrote:

"Glen" wrote in message
...
On 25/03/2012 17:39, Dutch wrote:

wrote
On Sun, 25 Mar 2012 02:22:30 -0700, wrote:

[]
Raising animals for food is not evil

You believe it is.

No, I don't.

*LOL*


I obviously don't,


The quotes I provided show otherwise


If you change your mind about something that does not mean that when you
state your new position you're lying.

How could you think anyone would accept such a nonsensical argument? Are you
high?





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