How cruel is leather?
 

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 14:51:52 -0800, "Dutch" > wrote:

>"Jahbulon" > wrote
>> "Dutch" > wrote in :
>>
>>> Abstaining from the use of leather is largely symbolic,
>>> the alternatives are not necessarily any better.
>>
>> Thank you. What do you recommend?
>
>Leather works better and lasts longer than anything else, is a natural
>product, so from environmental and utilitarian points of view it is hard to
>beat.

It's a byproduct so you should reassure him that no additional livestock
animals live and die because of leather, or pet food. Unless you want to now try
to pretend there are...LOL...livestock raised only to become leather like you
want people to believe there are for pet food.

>> Suicide is the end point of Jainism,
>> isn't it?
>
>I don't know, life is about compromises. In any case I would not base my
>decisions on simplistic notions like "veganism".

You used to and of course my guess is you still do to whatever extent, since
you do so much that ONLY eliminationists have any decent reason to do.

How cruel is leather?
 

dh@. wrote in :

> It's a byproduct so you should reassure him that no additional
> livestock animals live and die because of leather,
> or pet food.

Does leather only come from cows and do they take it off cattle while the
animals are alive?

--
Praise be to Jahbulon, holy god of Royal Arch Freemasons
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/jahbulon.html

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you,
then they fight you, then you win"

How cruel is leather?
 

On 12/26/2011 5:40 PM, dh@. wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 14:51:52 -0800, > wrote:
>
>> > wrote
>>> > wrote in :
>>>
>>>> Abstaining from the use of leather is largely symbolic,
>>>> the alternatives are not necessarily any better.
>>>
>>> Thank you. What do you recommend?
>>
>> Leather works better and lasts longer than anything else, is a natural
>> product, so from environmental and utilitarian points of view it is hard to
>> beat.
>
> It's a byproduct so you should reassure him that no additional livestock
> animals live and die because of leather, or pet food.

That's false, of course. Additional livestock animals do live because
of the demand for so-called "by-products". Everyone knows that.

How cruel is leather?
 

On 12/27/2011 1:58 AM, Jahbulon wrote:
> dh@. wrote in :
>
>> It's a byproduct so you should reassure him that no additional
>> livestock animals live and die because of leather,
>> or pet food.
>
> Does leather only come from cows

No.


> and do they take it off cattle while the
> animals are alive?

This simply is not a serious question.

How cruel is leather?
 

On Dec 27, 4:02*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 12/27/2011 1:58 AM, Jahbulon wrote:
>
> > dh@. wrote :
>
> >> It's a byproduct so you should reassure him that no additional
> >> livestock *animals live and die because of leather,
> >> or pet food.
>
> > Does leather only come from cows
>
> No.
>
> > and do they take it off cattle while the
> > animals are alive?
>
> This simply is not a serious question.

Why don't you just tell him: No, they don't.

How cruel is leather?
 

On 12/27/2011 8:39 AM, Rupert wrote:
> On Dec 27, 4:02 pm, George > wrote:
>> On 12/27/2011 1:58 AM, Jahbulon wrote:
>>
>>> dh@. wrote :
>>
>>>> It's a byproduct so you should reassure him that no additional
>>>> livestock animals live and die because of leather,
>>>> or pet food.
>>
>>> Does leather only come from cows
>>
>> No.
>>
>>> and do they take it off cattle while the
>>> animals are alive?
>>
>> This simply is not a serious question.
>
> Why don't you just tell him: No, they don't.

I'm not willing to feed someone's stupidity and naiveté to the extent
you are.

How cruel is leather?
 

On Dec 27, 6:21*pm, George Plimpton > wrote:
> On 12/27/2011 8:39 AM, Rupert wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 27, 4:02 pm, George > *wrote:
> >> On 12/27/2011 1:58 AM, Jahbulon wrote:
>
> >>> dh@. wrote :
>
> >>>> It's a byproduct so you should reassure him that no additional
> >>>> livestock *animals live and die because of leather,
> >>>> or pet food.
>
> >>> Does leather only come from cows
>
> >> No.
>
> >>> and do they take it off cattle while the
> >>> animals are alive?
>
> >> This simply is not a serious question.
>
> > Why don't you just tell him: No, they don't.
>
> I'm not willing to feed someone's stupidity and naiveté to the extent
> you are.

What does it mean to "feed someone's stupidity and naiveté"?

You would be remedying his naiveté, wouldn't you?

How cruel is leather?
 

George Plimpton > wrote in news:O-
:

>> Does leather only come from cows
>
> No.

From which other animals is leather harvested?

>> and do they take it off cattle
>> while the animals are alive?
>
> This simply is not a serious question.

Yes it is. I hear they still boil lobsters alive.

--
Praise be to Jahbulon, holy god of Royal Arch Freemasons
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/jahbulon.html

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you,
then they fight you, then you win"

How cruel is leather?
 

Rupert > wrote in news:c64691a5-1b18-47ac-9e91-
:

>> > and do they take it off cattle
>> > while the animals are alive?
>>
>> This simply is not a serious question.
>
> Why don't you just tell him:
> No, they don't.

Thank you for answering my question.

--
Praise be to Jahbulon, holy god of Royal Arch Freemasons
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/jahbulon.html

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you,
then they fight you, then you win"

How cruel is leather?
 

On 12/27/2011 11:38 AM, Jahbulon wrote:
> George > wrote in news:O-
> :
>
>>> Does leather only come from cows
>>
>> No.
>
> From which other animals is leather harvested?

Are you incapable of keying the word "leather" into a search engine and


>>> and do they take it off cattle
>>> while the animals are alive?
>>
>> This simply is not a serious question.
>
> Yes it is.

No, it isn't. No one who writes in (more or less) grammatically correct
English as you do can exhibit such utter ignorance of livestock
husbandry and the products obtained from livestock.


> I hear they still boil lobsters alive.

I thought you were interested in leather?

Do you not know anything about the production of meat?

How cruel is leather?
 

George Plimpton > wrote in
:

>> From which other animals is leather harvested?
>
> Are you incapable of keying the word "leather" into a search engine and

I wanted an answer dealing with group issues, posted to
alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian.

> No, it isn't. No one who writes in (more or less)
> grammatically correct English as you do can exhibit
> such utter ignorance of livestock husbandry and the
> products obtained from livestock.

You would - I hope - be amazed at how crap some people's educations can be.
My school was adjacent to a cattle farm, but I have no idea what happens to
them apart from what I've seen on television. One of my former teachers is
currently serving 21 years for child abuse.

>> I hear they still boil lobsters alive.
>
> I thought you were interested in leather?

Yes.

> Do you not know anything about the production of meat?

Apart from the obvious, probably not. I saw a television programme in the
middle of the year that claimed the average Hot Dog has 0% meat, so maybe
I'm not alone.

--
Praise be to Jahbulon, holy god of Royal Arch Freemasons
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/jahbulon.html

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you,
then they fight you, then you win"

How cruel is leather?
 

On 12/27/2011 3:08 PM, Jahbulon wrote:
> George > wrote in
> :
>
>>> From which other animals is leather harvested?
>>
>> Are you incapable of keying the word "leather" into a search engine and
>
> I wanted an answer dealing with group issues, posted to
> alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian.

"group issues" - what's that supposed to mean?


>> No, it isn't. No one who writes in (more or less)
>> grammatically correct English as you do can exhibit
>> such utter ignorance of livestock husbandry and the
>> products obtained from livestock.
>
> You would - I hope - be amazed at how crap some people's educations can be.
> My school was adjacent to a cattle farm, but I have no idea what happens to
> them apart from what I've seen on television. One of my former teachers is
> currently serving 21 years for child abuse.

No matter how crappy your formal education, the questions you're asking
make you seem not just poorly educated, but frankly clueless, and
seemingly incapable of doing the normal information-seeking that the
vast majority of people find easy and routine.



>>> I hear they still boil lobsters alive.
>>
>> I thought you were interested in leather?
>
> Yes.
>
>> Do you not know anything about the production of meat?
>
> Apart from the obvious, probably not. I saw a television programme in the
> middle of the year that claimed the average Hot Dog has 0% meat, so maybe
> I'm not alone.

Hot dogs and most other sausages are primarily meat. You need better
news sources.

How cruel is leather?
 

George Plimpton > wrote in
:

>> I wanted an answer dealing with group issues,
>> posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian.
>
> "group issues" - what's that supposed to mean?

Vegetarian animal ethics.

> No matter how crappy your formal education, the questions
> you're asking make you seem not just poorly educated, but
> frankly clueless, and seemingly incapable of doing the
> normal information-seeking that the vast majority of
> people find easy and routine.

I note you comments.

> Hot dogs and most other sausages are primarily meat.
> You need better news sources.

Hot dogs are cartilage and so on.

--
Praise be to Jahbulon, holy god of Royal Arch Freemasons
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/jahbulon.html

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you,
then they fight you, then you win"

How cruel is leather?
 

On 12/27/2011 5:58 PM, Jahbulon wrote:
> George > wrote in
> :
>
>>> I wanted an answer dealing with group issues,
>>> posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian.
>>
>> "group issues" - what's that supposed to mean?
>
> Vegetarian animal ethics.

What's the group? Who are they?


>> No matter how crappy your formal education, the questions
>> you're asking make you seem not just poorly educated, but
>> frankly clueless, and seemingly incapable of doing the
>> normal information-seeking that the vast majority of
>> people find easy and routine.
>
> I note you comments.

Yes, they're implicitly quite critical of you.


>> Hot dogs and most other sausages are primarily meat.
>> You need better news sources.
>
> Hot dogs are cartilage and so on.

No, mostly they're meat.
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...nts-explained/

How cruel is leather?
 

George Plimpton > wrote in
:

>>>> I wanted an answer dealing with group issues,
>>>> posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian.
>>>
>>> "group issues" - what's that supposed to mean?
>>
>> Vegetarian animal ethics.
>
> What's the group? Who are they?

It's the group to which I sent my original post,
alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian.

>>> No matter how crappy your formal education, the
>>> questions you're asking make you seem not just
>>> poorly educated, but frankly clueless, and
>>> seemingly incapable of doing the normal
>>> information-seeking that the vast majority of
>>> people find easy and routine.
>>
>> I note you comments.
>
> Yes, they're implicitly quite critical of you.

Not really. You say I was born clueless, in some ways incapable and was
not given a proper education. None of those would be my fault.

>>> Hot dogs and most other sausages are primarily
>>> meat. You need better news sources.
>>
>> Hot dogs are cartilage and so on.
>
> No, mostly they're meat.

Your understanding of meat includes, "paste-like and batter-like poultry
product, produced by forcing bones, with attached edible tissue, through a
sieve or similar device under high pressure."

Seems to me that is far better described as cartilage and so on, but don't
let me stop you calling it meat.

--
Praise be to Jahbulon, holy god of Royal Arch Freemasons
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/jahbulon.html

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you,
then they fight you, then you win"

How cruel is leather?
 

On 12/27/2011 6:49 PM, Jahbulon wrote:
> George > wrote in
> :
>
>>>>> I wanted an answer dealing with group issues,
>>>>> posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian.
>>>>
>>>> "group issues" - what's that supposed to mean?
>>>
>>> Vegetarian animal ethics.
>>
>> What's the group? Who are they?
>
> It's the group to which I sent my original post,
> alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian.

Who are they? What are "group" issues? Who do you imagine shares those
issues? Why won't you answer basic questions?


>>>> No matter how crappy your formal education, the
>>>> questions you're asking make you seem not just
>>>> poorly educated, but frankly clueless, and
>>>> seemingly incapable of doing the normal
>>>> information-seeking that the vast majority of
>>>> people find easy and routine.
>>>
>>> I note you comments.
>>
>> Yes, they're implicitly quite critical of you.
>
> Not really.

Yes, really.


> You say I was born clueless, in some ways incapable and was
> not given a proper education. None of those would be my fault.

They're all your fault, now.


>>>> Hot dogs and most other sausages are primarily
>>>> meat. You need better news sources.
>>>
>>> Hot dogs are cartilage and so on.
>>
>> No, mostly they're meat.
>
> Your understanding of meat includes, "paste-like and batter-like poultry
> product, produced by forcing bones, with attached edible tissue, through a
> sieve or similar device under high pressure."

That only applied to the turkey; not to the beef and pork.

Nice try. Well, not really, but you're revealing more and more about
yourself with each snarky post. Of course, I knew all of it even before
you revealed it.

How cruel is leather?
 

George Plimpton > wrote in
:

>>>>>> I wanted an answer dealing with group issues,
>>>>>> posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian.
>>>>>
>>>>> "group issues" - what's that supposed to mean?
>>>>
>>>> Vegetarian animal ethics.
>>>
>>> What's the group? Who are they?
>>
>> It's the group to which I sent my original post,
>> alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian.
>
> Who are they?

Why can't you ask the person who is using the word?

> What are "group" issues?

Vegetarian animal ethics.

> Who do you imagine shares
> those issues?

I don't imagine.

> Why won't you answer basic questions?

I seem to manage a better job than you.

>>> Yes, they're implicitly quite critical of you.
>>
>> Not really.
>
> Yes, really.

Lets agree that you tried and failed.

>> You say I was born clueless, in some ways incapable and was
>> not given a proper education. None of those would be my fault.
>
> They're all your fault, now.

How have the circumstances of my birth become my fault?

>> Your understanding of meat includes, "paste-like and batter-like
>> poultry product, produced by forcing bones, with attached edible
>> tissue, through a sieve or similar device under high pressure."
>
> That only applied to the turkey; not to the beef and pork.

It's the main ingredient, that's the reason it was listed first. Didn't
you know that?

> Of course, I knew all of it even
> before you revealed it.

Of course.

--
Praise be to Jahbulon, holy god of Royal Arch Freemasons
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/jahbulon.html

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you,
then they fight you, then you win"

How cruel is leather?
 

On 12/27/2011 8:29 PM, Jahbulon wrote:
> George > wrote in
> :
>
>>>>>>> I wanted an answer dealing with group issues,
>>>>>>> posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "group issues" - what's that supposed to mean?
>>>>>
>>>>> Vegetarian animal ethics.
>>>>
>>>> What's the group? Who are they?
>>>
>>> It's the group to which I sent my original post,
>>> alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian.
>>
>> Who are they?
>
> Why can't you ask the person who is using the word?

I'm asking you, wimp.


>> What are "group" issues?
>
> Vegetarian animal ethics.

What "issues", wimp?


>> Who do you imagine shares
>> those issues?
>
> I don't imagine.

So, you're just bullshitting. Okay - got it.


>> Why won't you answer basic questions?
>
> I seem to manage a better job than you.

Not even close.


>>>> Yes, they're implicitly quite critical of you.
>>>
>>> Not really.
>>
>> Yes, really.
>
> Lets agree that you tried and failed.

Nope. Got you.


>>> You say I was born clueless, in some ways incapable and was
>>> not given a proper education. None of those would be my fault.
>>
>> They're all your fault, now.
>
> How have the circumstances of my birth become my fault?

Your present circumstance right now has nothing to do with your birth.


>>> Your understanding of meat includes, "paste-like and batter-like
>>> poultry product, produced by forcing bones, with attached edible
>>> tissue, through a sieve or similar device under high pressure."
>>
>> That only applied to the turkey; not to the beef and pork.
>
> It's the main ingredient, that's the reason it was listed first. Didn't
> you know that?

It's not the main ingredient. What makes you think it is?


>> Of course, I knew all of it even
>> before you revealed it.
>
> Of course.

Of course.

Keep dancing - it's great fun to watch you stumble around out there.

How cruel is leather?
 

George Plimpton > wrote in
:

>> It's the main ingredient, that's the reason
>> it was listed first. Didn't you know that?
>
> It's not the main ingredient.
> What makes you think it is?

Have another look and see if you can spot the answer to your question.

--
Praise be to Jahbulon, holy god of Royal Arch Freemasons
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/jahbulon.html

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you,
then they fight you, then you win"

How cruel is leather?
 

On 12/27/2011 8:56 PM, Jahbulon wrote:
> George > wrote in
> :
>
>>> It's the main ingredient, that's the reason
>>> it was listed first. Didn't you know that?
>>
>> It's not the main ingredient.
>> What makes you think it is?
>
> Have another look and see if you can spot the answer to your question.

That's not a package ingredient list. Being listed first doesn't mean
it's the main ingredient.

How is it you're sophisto enough to know about package ingredient
listing requirements, but you don't have any idea how leather is
obtained? Doesn't quite add up, smartass.

How cruel is leather?
 

George Plimpton > wrote in
:

> That's not a package ingredient list. Being
> listed first doesn't mean it's the main ingredient.

Looks like you've had an opportunity to learn something. Shame that Hot
Dogs contain no meat.

--
Praise be to Jahbulon, holy god of Royal Arch Freemasons
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/jahbulon.html

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you,
then they fight you, then you win"

How cruel is leather?
 

On 12/28/2011 7:39 AM, Jahbulon wrote:
> George > wrote in
> :
>
>> That's not a package ingredient list. Being
>> listed first doesn't mean it's the main ingredient.
>
> Looks like you've had an opportunity to learn something. Shame that Hot
> Dogs contain no meat.

They contain meat. They contain *mostly* meat. You can't read for
comprehension, so it's not surprising you'd be completely confused on
the ethics of animal husbandry.

How cruel is leather?
 

George Plimpton > wrote in
:

>> Shame that Hot
>> Dogs contain no meat.
>
> They contain meat.
> They contain *mostly* meat.

Hot Dogs contain animal matter, but not meat.

--
Praise be to Jahbulon, holy god of Royal Arch Freemasons
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/jahbulon.html

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you,
then they fight you, then you win"

How cruel is leather?
 

On 12/28/2011 12:38 PM, Jahbulon wrote:
> George > wrote in
> :
>
>>> Shame that Hot
>>> Dogs contain no meat.
>>
>> They contain meat.
>> They contain *mostly* meat.
>
> Hot Dogs contain animal matter, but not meat.

They contain mainly meat. You have no evidence otherwise.

How cruel is leather?
 

On 12/28/2011 3:43 PM, dh@. wrote:


>>>>>> Abstaining from the use of leather is largely symbolic,
>>>>>> the alternatives are not necessarily any better.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you. What do you recommend?
>>>>
>>>> Leather works better and lasts longer than anything else, is a natural
>>>> product, so from environmental and utilitarian points of view it is hard to
>>>> beat.
>>>
>>> It's a byproduct so you should reassure him that no additional livestock
>>> animals live and die because of leather, or pet food.
>>
>> That's false, of course. Additional livestock animals do live because
>> of the demand for so-called "by-products". Everyone knows that.
>
> No one knows it

Everyone knows it, Goo. It is so: more animals live due to the demand
for leather, and pet food, and other so-called "by-products", than would
exist if there were no demand for those products. This is not in
rational dispute.

How cruel is leather?
 

On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 09:58:16 +0000 (UTC), Jahbulon >
wrote:

>dh@. wrote in :
>
>> It's a byproduct so you should reassure him that no additional
>> livestock animals live and die because of leather,
>> or pet food.
>
>Does leather only come from cows

No, there are lots of different kinds. You could find snake or alligator if
that makes you feel better.

>and do they take it off cattle while the
>animals are alive?

Not generally. You would have to special order it and it would probably be
extremely hard to get, so don't worry about getting any by mistake.

How cruel is leather?
 

On Tue, 27 Dec 2011 07:01:43 -0800, Goo wrote:

>On 12/26/2011 5:40 PM, dh@. wrote:
>> On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 14:51:52 -0800, > wrote:
>>
>>> > wrote
>>>> > wrote in :
>>>>
>>>>> Abstaining from the use of leather is largely symbolic,
>>>>> the alternatives are not necessarily any better.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you. What do you recommend?
>>>
>>> Leather works better and lasts longer than anything else, is a natural
>>> product, so from environmental and utilitarian points of view it is hard to
>>> beat.
>>
>> It's a byproduct so you should reassure him that no additional livestock
>> animals live and die because of leather, or pet food.
>
>That's false, of course. Additional livestock animals do live because
>of the demand for so-called "by-products". Everyone knows that.

No one knows it Goo. Not even you, because it's not true. That's why in all
these years you've never found anything that backs up the idea, and why you
still can't find anything to back it up now.

How cruel is leather?
 

George Plimpton > wrote in
:

>> Hot Dogs contain animal matter, but not meat.
>
> They contain mainly meat.
> You have no evidence otherwise.

Is it meat or vegetables that gives you mad cow disease?

--
Praise be to Jahbulon, holy god of Royal Arch Freemasons
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/jahbulon.html

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you,
then they fight you, then you win"

How cruel is leather?
 

dh@. wrote in :

>> Does leather only come from cows
>
> No, there are lots of different kinds. You could
> find snake or alligator if
> that makes you feel better.

Thanks.

What are the problems and advantages of leather replacements in the
manufacture of shoes and belts?

--
Praise be to Jahbulon, holy god of Royal Arch Freemasons
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/jahbulon.html

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you,
then they fight you, then you win"

How cruel is leather?
 

"Jahbulon" > wrote in message
4.90...
> George Plimpton > wrote in
> :
>
>>> Hot Dogs contain animal matter, but not meat.
>>
>> They contain mainly meat.
>> You have no evidence otherwise.
>
> Is it meat or vegetables that gives you mad cow disease?

If you're trying to be annoying you are doing pretty well.

How cruel is leather?
 

"Jahbulon" > wrote

> What are the problems and advantages of leather replacements in the
> manufacture of shoes and belts?

Why don't you do some research and report back to the group instead of
tossing out questions and hoping others will do the work for you?

How cruel is leather?
 

"Dutch" > wrote in :

> Why don't you do some research and report back
> to the group instead of tossing out questions
> and hoping others will do the work for you?

I don't know where to start. My only experience is non-leather belts that
seem to break within about a week, and shoes that don't last as long as
those made of leather.

--
Praise be to Jahbulon, holy god of Royal Arch Freemasons
http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/jahbulon.html

"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you,
then they fight you, then you win"

How cruel is leather?
 

On 12/28/2011 6:13 PM, Jahbulon wrote:
> George > wrote in
> :
>
>>> Hot Dogs contain animal matter, but not meat.
>>
>> They contain mainly meat.
>> You have no evidence otherwise.
>
> Is it meat or vegetables that gives you mad cow disease?

I don't have it.

How cruel is leather?
 

On 12/28/2011 6:41 PM, Jahbulon wrote:
> > wrote in :
>
>> Why don't you do some research and report back
>> to the group instead of tossing out questions
>> and hoping others will do the work for you?
>
> I don't know where to start. My only experience is non-leather belts that
> seem to break within about a week, and shoes that don't last as long as
> those made of leather.

I have numerous cloth belts that have lasted for years, as well as
non-leather athletic shoes that also have lasted for years.

How cruel is leather?
 

<dh@.> wrote in message ...
> On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 02:41:47 +0000 (UTC), Jahbulon
> >
> wrote:
>
>>"Dutch" > wrote in :
>>
>>> Why don't you do some research and report back
>>> to the group instead of tossing out questions
>>> and hoping others will do the work for you?
>>
>>I don't know where to start. My only experience is non-leather belts that
>>seem to break within about a week, and shoes that don't last as long as
>>those made of leather.
>
> You're almost certainly contributing to more cds every time you buy
> those
> things than you would be if you bought leather, unless those things don't
> involve any cds at all as leather doesn't.

That's a lie.

How cruel is leather?
 

On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 02:17:37 +0000 (UTC), Jahbulon >
wrote:

>dh@. wrote in :
>
>>> Does leather only come from cows
>>
>> No, there are lots of different kinds. You could
>> find snake or alligator if
>> that makes you feel better.
>
>Thanks.
>
>What are the problems and advantages of leather replacements in the
>manufacture of shoes and belts?

Leather is made of byproducts that will be disposed of somehow whether
people buy leather or not. So when you buy leather you're paying for processed
waste, but if you buy a leather substitute you're likely to contribute to deaths
which occur in order to produce the product you're buying. When you buy leather
you're not contributing to any wildlife deaths or suffering of cattle, because
those things are associated with food production NOT the production of leather,
and would occur just the same regardless of whether people buy leather or not.

How cruel is leather?
 

On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 02:41:47 +0000 (UTC), Jahbulon >
wrote:

>"Dutch" > wrote in :
>
>> Why don't you do some research and report back
>> to the group instead of tossing out questions
>> and hoping others will do the work for you?
>
>I don't know where to start. My only experience is non-leather belts that
>seem to break within about a week, and shoes that don't last as long as
>those made of leather.

You're almost certainly contributing to more cds every time you buy those
things than you would be if you bought leather, unless those things don't
involve any cds at all as leather doesn't.

How cruel is leather?
 

<dh@.> wrote in message ...
> On Mon, 2 Jan 2012 13:54:58 -0800, "Dutch" lied:
>
>>
>><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>>> On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 02:41:47 +0000 (UTC), Jahbulon
>>> >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Dutch" > wrote in :
>>>>
>>>>> Why don't you do some research and report back
>>>>> to the group instead of tossing out questions
>>>>> and hoping others will do the work for you?
>>>>
>>>>I don't know where to start. My only experience is non-leather belts
>>>>that
>>>>seem to break within about a week, and shoes that don't last as long as
>>>>those made of leather.
>>>
>>> You're almost certainly contributing to more cds every time you buy
>>> those
>>> things than you would be if you bought leather, unless those things
>>> don't
>>> involve any cds at all as leather doesn't.
>>
>>That's a lie.
>
> You're lying. You can't say every death associated with the animal is
> also
> associated with every single product and part of product that results in
> the
> animal having lived and died.

You can and you must.

For example if a grass raised steer was
> responsible for 12 significant deaths of other animals like rodents and
> reptiles, which is probably extremely high

You don't have the slightest idea if it's high or not.

, and the animal was raised for beef,
> then the 12 deaths are split amoung however many servings of beef resulted
> from
> butchering. That being the case those deaths can't ALSO be AGAIN counted
> for the
> by-products which the animal was not specifically raised for. Not for
> leather,
> not for fertilizer, not for pet food...

Every product derived from the animal shares in the resultant death toll.
Why would pet food and leather be exempt?

How cruel is leather?
 

On Mon, 2 Jan 2012 13:54:58 -0800, "Dutch" lied:

>
><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>> On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 02:41:47 +0000 (UTC), Jahbulon
>> >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"Dutch" > wrote in :
>>>
>>>> Why don't you do some research and report back
>>>> to the group instead of tossing out questions
>>>> and hoping others will do the work for you?
>>>
>>>I don't know where to start. My only experience is non-leather belts that
>>>seem to break within about a week, and shoes that don't last as long as
>>>those made of leather.
>>
>> You're almost certainly contributing to more cds every time you buy
>> those
>> things than you would be if you bought leather, unless those things don't
>> involve any cds at all as leather doesn't.
>
>That's a lie.

You're lying. You can't say every death associated with the animal is also
associated with every single product and part of product that results in the
animal having lived and died. For example if a grass raised steer was
responsible for 12 significant deaths of other animals like rodents and
reptiles, which is probably extremely high, and the animal was raised for beef,
then the 12 deaths are split amoung however many servings of beef resulted from
butchering. That being the case those deaths can't ALSO be AGAIN counted for the
by-products which the animal was not specifically raised for. Not for leather,
not for fertilizer, not for pet food...

How cruel is leather?
 

<dh@.> wrote in message ...
> On Thu, 5 Jan 2012 16:10:15 -0800, "Dutch" > wrote:
>
>><dh@.> wrote in message ...
>>> On Mon, 2 Jan 2012 13:54:58 -0800, "Dutch" lied:
>>>
>>>>
>>>><dh@.> wrote in message
m...
>>>>> On Thu, 29 Dec 2011 02:41:47 +0000 (UTC), Jahbulon
>>>>> >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Dutch" > wrote in :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why don't you do some research and report back
>>>>>>> to the group instead of tossing out questions
>>>>>>> and hoping others will do the work for you?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I don't know where to start. My only experience is non-leather belts
>>>>>>that
>>>>>>seem to break within about a week, and shoes that don't last as long
>>>>>>as
>>>>>>those made of leather.
>>>>>
>>>>> You're almost certainly contributing to more cds every time you buy
>>>>> those
>>>>> things than you would be if you bought leather, unless those things
>>>>> don't
>>>>> involve any cds at all as leather doesn't.
>>>>
>>>>That's a lie.
>>>
>>> You're lying. You can't say every death associated with the animal is
>>> also
>>> associated with every single product and part of product that results in
>>> the
>>> animal having lived and died.
>>
>>You can and you must.
>>
>> For example if a grass raised steer was
>>> responsible for 12 significant deaths of other animals like rodents and
>>> reptiles, which is probably extremely high
>>
>>You don't have the slightest idea if it's high or not.
>
> How do you think cows kill?

Hay production kills animals.


>>, and the animal was raised for beef,
>>> then the 12 deaths are split amoung however many servings of beef
>>> resulted
>>> from
>>> butchering. That being the case those deaths can't ALSO be AGAIN counted
>>> for the
>>> by-products which the animal was not specifically raised for. Not for
>>> leather,
>>> not for fertilizer, not for pet food...
>>
>>Every product derived from the animal shares in the resultant death toll.
>>Why would pet food and leather be exempt?
>
> Because it was only raised for food.

Then no leather or pet food were produced.