Vegan (alt.food.vegan) This newsgroup exists to share ideas and issues of concern among vegans. We are always happy to share our recipes- perhaps especially with omnivores who are simply curious- or even better, accomodating a vegan guest for a meal!

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On Dec 29, 2:45*am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
wrote:
> Rupert wrote:
> > On Dec 27, 7:50 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> > wrote:
> >> Despite all the fancy pseudo-philosophical rhetoric, "veganism" isn't
> >> really about ethics. *It's about smug self-satisfaction and sanctimony.
> >> * There is no valid ethics in "veganism" at all. *It isn't at all about
> >> identifying a moral and right course of action and then following it;
> >> it's only about self-exaltation over a completely phony issue.

>
> >> "vegans" have never shown, and never will be able to show, that it is
> >> unethical for humans to consume animal-derived products.

>
> > What's the fallacy in this argument?

>
> >http://www.uta.edu/philosophy/facult...ngel,%20The%20...

>
> Argument is unsound: *based on false premises.


Would you be able to specify one of the premises which is false?

I take it you think that all my other remarks are unanswerable?
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On Dec 29, 7:30*am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
wrote:
> Rupert wrote:
> > On Dec 27, 7:50 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> > wrote:
> >> Despite all the fancy pseudo-philosophical rhetoric, "veganism" isn't
> >> really about ethics. *It's about smug self-satisfaction and sanctimony.
> >> * There is no valid ethics in "veganism" at all. *It isn't at all about
> >> identifying a moral and right course of action and then following it;
> >> it's only about self-exaltation over a completely phony issue.

>
> >> "vegans" have never shown, and never will be able to show, that it is
> >> unethical for humans to consume animal-derived products.

>
> > What's the fallacy in this argument?

>
> >http://www.uta.edu/philosophy/facult...ngel,%20The%20...

>
> The fallacy is non sequitur: *he builds what he thinks is a compelling
> case against factory farming, then makes the unwarranted leap that *all*
> meat consumption is immoral.
>


He does make some remarks about how to make the further
generalisation, which you should address. Anyway, let's start with the
case against factory-farming and worry about the rest later. Is there
anything wrong with *that* case, the case for boycotting the products
of factory farming? I said from day one that this was the main case
that I wanted to make.

> Along the way, he belabors the same old, tired, inapplicable garbage
> about resource "inefficiency", which, as we have seen, is nonsense.
>


No, that paper does not contain the economic misconceptions which you
criticise. It is an environmental argument. We went through the
distinction before. As I have made clear repeatedly you have done
nothing to cast doubt on the environmental argument. Making the
*purely* economic argument, which is the target you set yourself and
the only one to which your criticisms apply, is extremely rare.

> The sophistry of guys like this is simply staggering. *They have a
> position to which they've leapt, and then they try to backfill the
> yawning chasm behind them.


Just specify where the argument breaks down. Which of the premises are
wrong? Do you concede the case against factory farming, and if not,
why not? Or if you think the generalisation beyond factory farming is
unwarranted then address the remarks he makes about that and show why
the additional generalisation is "unwarranted".

Recall that my claim was that this paper offers compelling reasons for
boycotting *almost* all animal products. I don't think that the paper
is free of logical gaps, no, but I believe that it achieves something.

In any event, you have left by rebuttal of your endlessly-repeated
tirade about vegans being morally bankrupt unreplied to, so I take it
you agree that those remarks of mine are unanswerable and that you
were posting indefensible nonsense all those years? Of *course* you do
because despite strenuous efforts to give a contrary impression you
actually are at least a moderately intelligent person, in your best
moments at least.
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Default "veganism" isn't what it purports to be

Rupert wrote:
> On Dec 29, 2:45 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> wrote:
>> Rupert wrote:
>>> On Dec 27, 8:57 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>> wrote:
>>>> Dutch wrote:
>>>>> "Ha" > wrote
>>>>>> ex-PFC Wintergreen wrote:
>>>>>>> All "vegans" start by believing a logical fallacy:
>>>>>>> If I consume animal products, I cause animals to suffer and die.
>>>>>>> I don't consume any animal products;
>>>>>>> therefore, I don't cause any animals to suffer and die.
>>>>>> All vegans?
>>>>>> rather a sweeping statement!
>>>>> You can replace "All vegans" with "Vegans" (in general) and not lose the
>>>>> validity of the message.
>>>>> Are you implicitly agreeing with the message but claiming to be an
>>>>> exception?
>>>> I don't have any problem making the assertion "all vegans". They do
>>>> *all* begin by believing that being "vegan" equates to living a
>>>> "cruelty-free" or "death-free" lifestyle.- Hide quoted text -
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>> False. I have never believed that.

>> You have.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -

>
> Well, whatever the truth of the matter is, I would certainly know.


We both know you began by believing in the fallacy.
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Default "veganism" isn't what it purports to be

Rupert wrote:
> On Dec 29, 2:46 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> wrote:
>> Rupert wrote:
>>> On Dec 27, 8:49 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>> wrote:
>>>> Ha wrote:
>>>>> ex-PFC Wintergreen wrote:
>>>>>> All "vegans" start by believing a logical fallacy:
>>>>>> If I consume animal products, I cause animals to suffer and die.
>>>>>> I don't consume any animal products;
>>>>>> therefore, I don't cause any animals to suffer and die.
>>>>> All vegans?
>>>> Without exception. They all start with that, and many - probably most -
>>>> never move off it. Look at the myriad "vegan" web sites that extol
>>>> "veganism" as a means of living a "cruelty-free" or "death-free"
>>>> lifestyle. Those people, by necessary implication, believe in the
>>>> logical fallacy.
>>> It's probably fair to say that it is quite widespread

>> Universal, at the outset. Most never abandon it.

>
> See the discussion in my other post.


See my well established fact, above: All "vegans" begin by believing in
the logical fallacy, and most never abandon it.
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Rupert wrote:
> On Dec 29, 2:45 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> wrote:
>> Rupert wrote:
>>> On Dec 27, 7:50 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>> wrote:
>>>> Despite all the fancy pseudo-philosophical rhetoric, "veganism" isn't
>>>> really about ethics. It's about smug self-satisfaction and sanctimony.
>>>> There is no valid ethics in "veganism" at all. It isn't at all about
>>>> identifying a moral and right course of action and then following it;
>>>> it's only about self-exaltation over a completely phony issue.
>>>> "vegans" have never shown, and never will be able to show, that it is
>>>> unethical for humans to consume animal-derived products.
>>> What's the fallacy in this argument?
>>> http://www.uta.edu/philosophy/facult...ngel,%20The%20...

>> Argument is unsound: based on false premises.

>
> Would you be able to specify one of the premises which is false?


Among others, it is a false premise that greater resource usage to
produce meat "proves" that meat is immoral.


>
> I take it you think that all my other remarks are unanswerable?


Junk philosophy.


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"Rupert" > wrote

Never in my life have I believed that the typical vegan lifestyle does
not involving buying any products whose production contributes to the
suffering and premature death of sentient nonhumans. I was well aware
that that was not the case in adolescence, before I seriously
contemplated giving up meat, and frequently discussed the point with
my friends. I would certainly be aware of the truth of that matter one
way or the other. I believe you once remarked that I had no reason to
disbelieve Dutch about some testimony that he gave, well, you have no
rational grounds whatsoever for disbelieving this testimony.
---------->

Again, the elephant in the room, the REAL issue, the issue of viewing
animals as commodities. I think the concern is misguided politicking.

Veganism clearly addresses that issue, but vegans frequently confuse,
conflate and equivocate that issue with issues of legitimate concern, like
health, the environment and animal suffering. Don't assume that by avoiding
that sauce or substituting that tofu steak for that salmon steak you
contributed to lessening animal suffering in any meaningful way, even though
you fulfilled your goal to remain pure, to avoid being an "exploiter" using
animals *as end products*.

Personally it does not bother me that animals are viewed as commodities, as
long as their capacity to suffer pain and deprivation is taken into account.


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On Dec 29, 10:05*am, "Dutch" > wrote:
> "Rupert" > wrote
>
> However, it is almost universally acknowledged that we have *some*
> obligations towards nonhumans, even some that are legitimately
> enforceable. I discussed this in a different thread. The question is
> whether they are sufficiently extensive that individuals like you and
> me who live in agriculturally bountiful societies and in no way need
> to consume animal products to survive, are morally required to adopt a
> lifestyle which involves almost completely avoiding the consumption of
> animal products.
> --------------->
>
> This is a non sequitur. Having obligations towards animals (e.g to minimize
> harm) or to see them as holding certain rights against us if you like, does
> not lead directly to the non-consumption of animal products, the two are not
> necessarily linked.


No such claim was made. The claim was that

(1) making a policy of boycotting animal products can be a rational
means of reducing one's contribution to animal suffering, and Ball has
done nothing to show that it is morally bankrupt (this is ****ing
OBVIOUS)
(2) it could be at least *argued* that typical people in Western
societies have a moral obligation to do *about* that much by way of
reducing their contribution to animal suffering. It does not logically
follow from my contention that some nonhuman animals have some rights,
no. But it's a plausible enough position and you and Ball have done
nothing to show that wherever it is you choose to draw the line is any
better. You could plausibly claim that your position would have more
popular appeal at the moment, but that is argumentum ad verecundam. I
have not offered *reasons* for thinking that my position is better but
that is a symmetrical situation.


> The main problem with veganism is that adherents tend to
> see abstension from animal products as both necessary and sufficient steps
> when such is clearly not the case. (See the vegan in an SUV (or like some
> celebrities with private jets) vs the omnivore on a bike) A glaring
> illustration of this issue plays out as a vegan examines a condiment in a
> restaurant to ensure it does not contain even a milligram of animal cells,
> (the horror!) all the while a 1% reduction in his caloric consumption would
> do far more to reduce his impact on animals.
>


Fine. I agree with all that.

> The elephant in the room is the notion that man ought not to view animals as
> commodities, everything serves that master. Working from that perspective
> the desire to avoid animal products makes perfect sense. If we're talking
> about attempting to count and compare the number of animals that are harmed
> or killed and assign some acceptable moral level, then we're kidding
> ourselves, we're not actaully doing that, nor can we.
>


Working towards a world where nonhumans are not seen as commodities is
a reasonable strategy with respect to the goal of having humans
inflict less suffering on nonhumans. Reducing one's own personal
contribution as best one can short of dropping out of technological
civilisation altogether is a reasonable strategy with respect to the
goal of reducing one's personal responsibility for an aspect of the
world one dislikes. Ball has done nothing to show that this is morally
bankrupt.

It is one position regarding how humans should relate to nonhumans. It
is not especially widely held one at the moment but I don't believe
that anyone else has shown that theirs is more coherent or better
justified. Narveson's position, which involves saying that he wouldn't
call the police if he saw someone torching a stray dog, certainly *is*
more coherent. He's definitely being consistent. But most of us don't
like that one, so we need to find some rational ground for choosing
between the other available positions. I do not say that I have done
that yet. I say that Ball's endlessly-repeated tirade over all these
years is indefensible nonsense. Which is of course obvious.

> Nobody can say fairly that a vegan lifestyle is not likely to have a pretty
> low level of associated animal deaths, but this is not the type of
> reasonable argument being made.


It is the one being made by me, and Ball said that he was talking
about all vegans.

I think he needs to get more specific. He's casting the net a bit too
broad. If he wants to criticise Tom Regan or Gary Francione that's
great, I'm sure there's plenty to criticise; he should probably have a
look at what they wrote. Or if he wants to criticise my stance that's
great, but again he should make sure his remarks are actually
applicable to the stance being taken.

If he's going to try to argue that all vegans are morally bankrupt I
don't think he's going to get there. Based on my experience with
vegans they are not especially morally criticisable people, indeed a
lot less so than Ball based on my experience of him, but in many cases
you might want to say there are problems with the intellectual
foundations of the position that they take. I certanily grant that. It
is not clear to me that Ball avoids this problem either.

But of course none of this alters the obvious fact that Ball was
obviously talking complete nonsense as always, which was of course my
point. He has declined to answer my case for this contention.
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Rupert wrote:
> On Dec 29, 7:30 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> wrote:
>> Rupert wrote:
>>> On Dec 27, 7:50 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>> wrote:
>>>> Despite all the fancy pseudo-philosophical rhetoric, "veganism" isn't
>>>> really about ethics. It's about smug self-satisfaction and sanctimony.
>>>> There is no valid ethics in "veganism" at all. It isn't at all about
>>>> identifying a moral and right course of action and then following it;
>>>> it's only about self-exaltation over a completely phony issue.
>>>> "vegans" have never shown, and never will be able to show, that it is
>>>> unethical for humans to consume animal-derived products.
>>> What's the fallacy in this argument?
>>> http://www.uta.edu/philosophy/facult...ngel,%20The%20...

>> The fallacy is non sequitur: he builds what he thinks is a compelling
>> case against factory farming, then makes the unwarranted leap that *all*
>> meat consumption is immoral.
>>

>
> He does make some remarks about how to make the further
> generalisation,


Unpersuasive. He wants to show that *all* meat is immoral, but his case
is fundamentally predicated on an overwrought caricature of "factory
farming".


>> Along the way, he belabors the same old, tired, inapplicable garbage
>> about resource "inefficiency", which, as we have seen, is nonsense.
>>

>
> No, that paper does not contain the economic misconceptions which you
> criticise.


Absolutely it does: pages 870-872 of his Section 3 include five
environmental/economic points that are intended to cement the claim that
meat consumption is immoral:

1. allegedly extremely energy intensive
2. allegedly inefficient use of water
3. alleged nutrient inefficiency
4. soil erosion
5. hazardous waste production

*All* of these are offered as *further evidence* that meat consumption
is immoral.

The whole thing falls to pieces, because of economic and environmental
illiteracy, along with the basic, inescapable fact that killing animals
to eat them is not inherently immoral.
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On Dec 29, 10:57*am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
wrote:
> Rupert wrote:
> > On Dec 29, 2:46 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> > wrote:
> >> Rupert wrote:
> >>> On Dec 27, 8:49 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> Ha wrote:
> >>>>> ex-PFC Wintergreen wrote:
> >>>>>> All "vegans" start by believing a logical fallacy:
> >>>>>> * * If I consume animal products, I cause animals to suffer and die.
> >>>>>> * * I don't consume any animal products;
> >>>>>> * * therefore, I don't cause any animals to suffer and die.
> >>>>> All vegans?
> >>>> Without exception. *They all start with that, and many - probably most -
> >>>> never move off it. *Look at the myriad "vegan" web sites that extol
> >>>> "veganism" as a means of living a "cruelty-free" or "death-free"
> >>>> lifestyle. *Those people, by necessary implication, believe in the
> >>>> logical fallacy.
> >>> It's probably fair to say that it is quite widespread
> >> Universal, at the outset. *Most never abandon it.

>
> > See the discussion in my other post.

>
> See my well established fact, above: *All "vegans" begin by believing in
> the logical fallacy, and most never abandon it.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


No, "well established fact" is not the phrase you were looking for,
you mean "something you made up when obviously you have no particular
evidence for it".
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On Dec 29, 10:59*am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
wrote:
> Rupert wrote:
> > On Dec 29, 2:45 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> > wrote:
> >> Rupert wrote:
> >>> On Dec 27, 7:50 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> Despite all the fancy pseudo-philosophical rhetoric, "veganism" isn't
> >>>> really about ethics. *It's about smug self-satisfaction and sanctimony.
> >>>> * There is no valid ethics in "veganism" at all. *It isn't at all about
> >>>> identifying a moral and right course of action and then following it;
> >>>> it's only about self-exaltation over a completely phony issue.
> >>>> "vegans" have never shown, and never will be able to show, that it is
> >>>> unethical for humans to consume animal-derived products.
> >>> What's the fallacy in this argument?
> >>>http://www.uta.edu/philosophy/facult...ngel,%20The%20....
> >> Argument is unsound: *based on false premises.

>
> > Would you be able to specify one of the premises which is false?

>
> Among others, it is a false premise that greater resource usage to
> produce meat "proves" that meat is immoral.
>


That's not on his list of premises. He explicitly gives the list of
premises in an appendix for your convenience.

>
>
> > I take it you think that all my other remarks are unanswerable?

>
> Junk philosophy.


I am not altogether heartbroken that you think that, because it is
extremely obvious to any person of good sense that you were talking
drivel, and I pointed out the reasons why in a rather cogent fashion.
You have declined to attempt to respond, so I'll take it as read that
you cannot give a satisfactory response.


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Rupert wrote:
> On Dec 29, 10:05 am, "Dutch" > wrote:
>> "Rupert" > wrote
>>
>> However, it is almost universally acknowledged that we have *some*
>> obligations towards nonhumans, even some that are legitimately
>> enforceable. I discussed this in a different thread. The question is
>> whether they are sufficiently extensive that individuals like you and
>> me who live in agriculturally bountiful societies and in no way need
>> to consume animal products to survive, are morally required to adopt a
>> lifestyle which involves almost completely avoiding the consumption of
>> animal products.
>> --------------->
>>
>> This is a non sequitur. Having obligations towards animals (e.g to minimize
>> harm) or to see them as holding certain rights against us if you like, does
>> not lead directly to the non-consumption of animal products, the two are not
>> necessarily linked.

>
> No such claim was made. The claim was that
>
> (1) making a policy of boycotting animal products can be a rational
> means of reducing one's contribution to animal suffering,


No, it can't. Not until you measure, and that means measuring *within*
the set of vegetable food products. If potatoes provide comparable
nutrition to rice, but at much lower animal harm, less environmental
degradation, lower energy inputs and less of any other harmful side
effect of production and distribution, then you are *OBLIGED* to eat no
rice, and to eat potatoes instead. But no "vegan" has ever made that
analysis, and none of them ever will.

The fact that "vegans" do not attempt to "minimize" even with the set of
vegetarian foods kills their entire argument (not that the argument had
any credibility to start.) *Some* "vegan" diets are higher in many
undesirable side effects than *some* meat-including diets, so the fact
of abstaining from meat /per se/ achieves nothing.
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Rupert wrote:
> On Dec 29, 10:57 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> wrote:
>> Rupert wrote:
>>> On Dec 29, 2:46 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>> wrote:
>>>> Rupert wrote:
>>>>> On Dec 27, 8:49 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Ha wrote:
>>>>>>> ex-PFC Wintergreen wrote:
>>>>>>>> All "vegans" start by believing a logical fallacy:
>>>>>>>> If I consume animal products, I cause animals to suffer and die.
>>>>>>>> I don't consume any animal products;
>>>>>>>> therefore, I don't cause any animals to suffer and die.
>>>>>>> All vegans?
>>>>>> Without exception. They all start with that, and many - probably most -
>>>>>> never move off it. Look at the myriad "vegan" web sites that extol
>>>>>> "veganism" as a means of living a "cruelty-free" or "death-free"
>>>>>> lifestyle. Those people, by necessary implication, believe in the
>>>>>> logical fallacy.
>>>>> It's probably fair to say that it is quite widespread
>>>> Universal, at the outset. Most never abandon it.
>>> See the discussion in my other post.

>> See my well established fact, above: All "vegans" begin by believing in
>> the logical fallacy, and most never abandon it.

>
> No, "well established fact" is not the phrase you were looking for


Indeed it is what I was looking for.
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Rupert wrote:
> On Dec 29, 10:59 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> wrote:
>> Rupert wrote:
>>> On Dec 29, 2:45 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>> wrote:
>>>> Rupert wrote:
>>>>> On Dec 27, 7:50 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Despite all the fancy pseudo-philosophical rhetoric, "veganism" isn't
>>>>>> really about ethics. It's about smug self-satisfaction and sanctimony.
>>>>>> There is no valid ethics in "veganism" at all. It isn't at all about
>>>>>> identifying a moral and right course of action and then following it;
>>>>>> it's only about self-exaltation over a completely phony issue.
>>>>>> "vegans" have never shown, and never will be able to show, that it is
>>>>>> unethical for humans to consume animal-derived products.
>>>>> What's the fallacy in this argument?
>>>>> http://www.uta.edu/philosophy/facult...ngel,%20The%20...
>>>> Argument is unsound: based on false premises.
>>> Would you be able to specify one of the premises which is false?

>> Among others, it is a false premise that greater resource usage to
>> produce meat "proves" that meat is immoral.
>>

>
> That's not on his list of premises.


It is.


>>> I take it you think that all my other remarks are unanswerable?

>> Junk philosophy.

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"Rupert" > wrote
He does make some remarks about how to make the further
generalisation, which you should address. Anyway, let's start with the
case against factory-farming and worry about the rest later. Is there
anything wrong with *that* case, the case for boycotting the products
of factory farming? I said from day one that this was the main case
that I wanted to make.
--------->

So much these days comes from large scale mechanized production. Provided
that the welfare of animals is taken into account I see nothing wrong in
that, and I realize that is not the case now. Preferring to buy locally
produced small farm goods is certainly worthwhile. It is worth noting that
the same principle works for vegans when they buy grain, fruit and vegetable
products, local and fresh vs imported and/or processed. Simply avoiding
animal products is neither sufficient nor necessary in addressing the
legitimate (IMO) issues, only the elephant in the room quasi-political issue
of "animal liberation".

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On Dec 29, 11:06*am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
wrote:
> Rupert wrote:
> > On Dec 29, 7:30 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> > wrote:
> >> Rupert wrote:
> >>> On Dec 27, 7:50 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> Despite all the fancy pseudo-philosophical rhetoric, "veganism" isn't
> >>>> really about ethics. *It's about smug self-satisfaction and sanctimony.
> >>>> * There is no valid ethics in "veganism" at all. *It isn't at all about
> >>>> identifying a moral and right course of action and then following it;
> >>>> it's only about self-exaltation over a completely phony issue.
> >>>> "vegans" have never shown, and never will be able to show, that it is
> >>>> unethical for humans to consume animal-derived products.
> >>> What's the fallacy in this argument?
> >>>http://www.uta.edu/philosophy/facult...ngel,%20The%20....
> >> The fallacy is non sequitur: *he builds what he thinks is a compelling
> >> case against factory farming, then makes the unwarranted leap that *all*
> >> meat consumption is immoral.

>
> > He does make some remarks about how to make the further
> > generalisation,

>
> Unpersuasive.


That is not engaging with what he said.

> *He wants to show that *all* meat is immoral, but his case
> is fundamentally predicated on an overwrought caricature of "factory
> farming".
>


Point out his factual errors then. Just specify which of his premises
is wrong. Is this really too hard for a "master of logic and
philosophy"?

> >> Along the way, he belabors the same old, tired, inapplicable garbage
> >> about resource "inefficiency", which, as we have seen, is nonsense.

>
> > No, that paper does not contain the economic misconceptions which you
> > criticise.

>
> Absolutely it does: *pages 870-872 of his Section 3 include five
> environmental/economic points that are intended to cement the claim that
> meat consumption is immoral:
>
> 1. *allegedly extremely energy intensive
> 2. *allegedly inefficient use of water
> 3. *alleged nutrient inefficiency
> 4. *soil erosion
> 5. *hazardous waste production
>


For the purposes of making an *environmental* argument you clueless
pointless clown. The reason those things are bad is because they
contribute to environmental degradation. That is made quite clear. You
explicitly conceded that your criticisms were not directed at the
environmental argument, as of course they can't be.

Sheesh. You *cannot* possibly be this stupid.

> *All* of these are offered as *further evidence* that meat consumption
> is immoral.
>


Because of their environmental consequences.

> The whole thing falls to pieces, because of economic and environmental
> illiteracy, along with the basic, inescapable fact that killing animals
> to eat them is not inherently immoral.


He explicitly concedes that *alleged* fact for the sake of argument
and sets out to make his case in that context. You have offered no
evidence of "economic or environmental illiteracy" and the
environmental argument is not necessary for his case anyway, it is an
additional argument.

If the whole thing falls to pieces then you ought to be able to
specify which one of his premises is wrong and why the argument is
invalid.


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Dutch wrote:
> "Rupert" > wrote
> He does make some remarks about how to make the further
> generalisation, which you should address. Anyway, let's start with the
> case against factory-farming and worry about the rest later. Is there
> anything wrong with *that* case, the case for boycotting the products
> of factory farming? I said from day one that this was the main case
> that I wanted to make.
> --------->
>
> So much these days comes from large scale mechanized production.
> Provided that the welfare of animals is taken into account I see nothing
> wrong in that, and I realize that is not the case now. Preferring to buy
> locally produced small farm goods is certainly worthwhile.


I am convinced that the "buy local" trend is mostly about feel-goodism,
just as "organic" is. Any talk of measurable benefit is entirely
superfluous - what the real issue is, is feeling good about oneself.


It is worth
> noting that the same principle works for vegans when they buy grain,
> fruit and vegetable products, local and fresh vs imported and/or
> processed. Simply avoiding animal products is neither sufficient nor
> necessary in addressing the legitimate (IMO) issues, only the elephant
> in the room quasi-political issue of "animal liberation".
>

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Rupert wrote:
> On Dec 29, 11:06 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> wrote:
>> Rupert wrote:
>>> On Dec 29, 7:30 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>> wrote:
>>>> Rupert wrote:
>>>>> On Dec 27, 7:50 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Despite all the fancy pseudo-philosophical rhetoric, "veganism" isn't
>>>>>> really about ethics. It's about smug self-satisfaction and sanctimony.
>>>>>> There is no valid ethics in "veganism" at all. It isn't at all about
>>>>>> identifying a moral and right course of action and then following it;
>>>>>> it's only about self-exaltation over a completely phony issue.
>>>>>> "vegans" have never shown, and never will be able to show, that it is
>>>>>> unethical for humans to consume animal-derived products.
>>>>> What's the fallacy in this argument?
>>>>> http://www.uta.edu/philosophy/facult...ngel,%20The%20...
>>>> The fallacy is non sequitur: he builds what he thinks is a compelling
>>>> case against factory farming, then makes the unwarranted leap that *all*
>>>> meat consumption is immoral.
>>> He does make some remarks about how to make the further
>>> generalisation,

>> Unpersuasive.

>
> That is not engaging with what he said.


It's enough.


>> He wants to show that *all* meat is immoral, but his case
>> is fundamentally predicated on an overwrought caricature of "factory
>> farming".
>>
>>>> Along the way, he belabors the same old, tired, inapplicable garbage
>>>> about resource "inefficiency", which, as we have seen, is nonsense.
>>> No, that paper does not contain the economic misconceptions which you
>>> criticise.

>> Absolutely it does: pages 870-872 of his Section 3 include five
>> environmental/economic points that are intended to cement the claim that
>> meat consumption is immoral:
>>
>> 1. allegedly extremely energy intensive
>> 2. allegedly inefficient use of water
>> 3. alleged nutrient inefficiency
>> 4. soil erosion
>> 5. hazardous waste production
>>

>
> For the purposes of making an *environmental* argument


The pseudo "environmental" argument is idiotic, because he doesn't know
what he's talking about. For one thing, environmental degradation
applies just as much to different types of fruit and vegetable
agriculture. For another, it is the economic cost of environmental
degradation that is of concern. No one with a brain wants to avoid any
and all environmental degradation simply because it's "wrong"; we want
to avoid environmental degradation whose social cost exceeds the social
benefit. There is going to be some environmental degradation involved
in farming rice; the answer is not to stop all rice production.
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"Rupert" > wrote
On Dec 29, 10:05 am, "Dutch" > wrote:
> "Rupert" > wrote
>
> However, it is almost universally acknowledged that we have *some*
> obligations towards nonhumans, even some that are legitimately
> enforceable. I discussed this in a different thread. The question is
> whether they are sufficiently extensive that individuals like you and
> me who live in agriculturally bountiful societies and in no way need
> to consume animal products to survive, are morally required to adopt a
> lifestyle which involves almost completely avoiding the consumption of
> animal products.
> --------------->
>
> This is a non sequitur. Having obligations towards animals (e.g to
> minimize
> harm) or to see them as holding certain rights against us if you like,
> does
> not lead directly to the non-consumption of animal products, the two are
> not
> necessarily linked.


No such claim was made. The claim was that
------->

Whatever you did that one post to allow the insertion of carats is not
happening.

(1) making a policy of boycotting animal products can be a rational
means of reducing one's contribution to animal suffering
-------->

Nobody is denying that. That's the reasonable claim I mentioned earlier.

, and Ball has
done nothing to show that it is morally bankrupt (this is ****ing
OBVIOUS)
---------->

It's not morally bankrupt to avoid animal products, it isn't even a bad
idea, it is morally bankrupt to transpose moral conclusions about it from
the notion that animals must be liberated and project those conclusions onto
others.


[..]

Working towards a world where nonhumans are not seen as commodities is
a reasonable strategy with respect to the goal of having humans
inflict less suffering on nonhumans.
--------->

I think it is an absurd strategy. For one thing hominids have included
animal products as part of their survival strategy for millions of years,
for another thing, a lot of land is unsuited for plant agriculture. A
reasonable strategy would be to work towards much higher standards of
treatment for livestock animals, not rejecting AW as counter-productive as
some ARAs do. Very high standards of care would make costs rise and that
would decrease the number of animals *exploited* which is your underlying
goal.


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"ex-PFC Wintergreen" > wrote in message
m...
> Dutch wrote:
>> "Rupert" > wrote
>> He does make some remarks about how to make the further
>> generalisation, which you should address. Anyway, let's start with the
>> case against factory-farming and worry about the rest later. Is there
>> anything wrong with *that* case, the case for boycotting the products
>> of factory farming? I said from day one that this was the main case
>> that I wanted to make.
>> --------->
>>
>> So much these days comes from large scale mechanized production. Provided
>> that the welfare of animals is taken into account I see nothing wrong in
>> that, and I realize that is not the case now. Preferring to buy locally
>> produced small farm goods is certainly worthwhile.

>
> I am convinced that the "buy local" trend is mostly about feel-goodism,
> just as "organic" is. Any talk of measurable benefit is entirely
> superfluous - what the real issue is, is feeling good about oneself.


There is no doubt that locally produced food contains a lower transportation
(petroleum) component, which supports the argument that a calorie from
locally caught salmon is more sustainable, causing less impact on the planet
and thus animals, than a calorie of bananas flown in from Chile.


> It is worth
>> noting that the same principle works for vegans when they buy grain,
>> fruit and vegetable products, local and fresh vs imported and/or
>> processed. Simply avoiding animal products is neither sufficient nor
>> necessary in addressing the legitimate (IMO) issues, only the elephant in
>> the room quasi-political issue of "animal liberation".
>>


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On Dec 29, 10:56*am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
wrote:
> Rupert wrote:
> > On Dec 29, 2:45 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> > wrote:
> >> Rupert wrote:
> >>> On Dec 27, 8:57 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> Dutch wrote:
> >>>>> "Ha" > wrote
> >>>>>> ex-PFC Wintergreen wrote:
> >>>>>>> All "vegans" start by believing a logical fallacy:
> >>>>>>> * * If I consume animal products, I cause animals to suffer and die.
> >>>>>>> * * I don't consume any animal products;
> >>>>>>> * * therefore, I don't cause any animals to suffer and die.
> >>>>>> All vegans?
> >>>>>> rather a sweeping statement!
> >>>>> You can replace "All vegans" with "Vegans" (in general) and not lose the
> >>>>> validity of the message.
> >>>>> Are you implicitly agreeing with the message but claiming to be an
> >>>>> exception?
> >>>> I don't have any problem making the assertion "all vegans". *They do
> >>>> *all* begin by believing that being "vegan" equates to living a
> >>>> "cruelty-free" or "death-free" lifestyle.- Hide quoted text -
> >>>> - Show quoted text -
> >>> False. I have never believed that.
> >> You have.- Hide quoted text -

>
> >> - Show quoted text -

>
> > Well, whatever the truth of the matter is, I would certainly know.

>
> We both know you began by believing in the fallacy.


No, I know I didn't, and you apparently think you know I did, but you
are sadly deluded, as is not uncommon. You should just start being a
bit more selective about what you claim to "know". You very frequently
claim to "know" things which are utter nonsense and which you
obviously do not have the slightest reason to believe. You should do
something about it.


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On Dec 29, 11:01*am, "Dutch" > wrote:
> "Rupert" > wrote
>
> Never in my life have I believed that the typical vegan lifestyle does
> not involving buying any products whose production contributes to the
> suffering and premature death of sentient nonhumans. I was well aware
> that that was not the case in adolescence, before I seriously
> contemplated giving up meat, and frequently discussed the point with
> my friends. I would certainly be aware of the truth of that matter one
> way or the other. I believe you once remarked that I had no reason to
> disbelieve Dutch about some testimony that he gave, well, you have no
> rational grounds whatsoever for disbelieving this testimony.
> ---------->
>
> Again, the elephant in the room, the REAL issue, the issue of viewing
> animals as commodities. I think the concern is misguided politicking.
>
> Veganism clearly addresses that issue, but vegans frequently confuse,
> conflate and equivocate that issue with issues of legitimate concern, like
> health, the environment and animal suffering. Don't assume that by avoiding
> that sauce or substituting that tofu steak for that salmon steak you
> contributed to lessening animal suffering in any meaningful way, even though
> you fulfilled your goal to remain pure, to avoid being an "exploiter" using
> animals *as end products*.
>


I'm not sure what your point is here, I thought we were agreed that a
widespread transition to veganism would lead to a significant
reduction in animal suffering. By being vegan and publicly defending
this stance I am doing my bit to reduce my share of responsibility for
the problem.

> Personally it does not bother me that animals are viewed as commodities, *as
> long as their capacity to suffer pain and deprivation is taken into account.

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On Dec 29, 11:13*am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
wrote:
> Rupert wrote:
> > On Dec 29, 10:57 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> > wrote:
> >> Rupert wrote:
> >>> On Dec 29, 2:46 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> Rupert wrote:
> >>>>> On Dec 27, 8:49 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Ha wrote:
> >>>>>>> ex-PFC Wintergreen wrote:
> >>>>>>>> All "vegans" start by believing a logical fallacy:
> >>>>>>>> * * If I consume animal products, I cause animals to suffer and die.
> >>>>>>>> * * I don't consume any animal products;
> >>>>>>>> * * therefore, I don't cause any animals to suffer and die.
> >>>>>>> All vegans?
> >>>>>> Without exception. *They all start with that, and many - probably most -
> >>>>>> never move off it. *Look at the myriad "vegan" web sites that extol
> >>>>>> "veganism" as a means of living a "cruelty-free" or "death-free"
> >>>>>> lifestyle. *Those people, by necessary implication, believe in the
> >>>>>> logical fallacy.
> >>>>> It's probably fair to say that it is quite widespread
> >>>> Universal, at the outset. *Most never abandon it.
> >>> See the discussion in my other post.
> >> See my well established fact, above: *All "vegans" begin by believing in
> >> the logical fallacy, and most never abandon it.

>
> > No, "well established fact" is not the phrase you were looking for

>
> Indeed it is what I was looking for.


Well, that's a shame, because actually it's a false claim, which you
asserted on the basis of no particular evidence.
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On Dec 29, 11:13*am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
wrote:
> Rupert wrote:
> > On Dec 29, 10:59 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> > wrote:
> >> Rupert wrote:
> >>> On Dec 29, 2:45 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> Rupert wrote:
> >>>>> On Dec 27, 7:50 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Despite all the fancy pseudo-philosophical rhetoric, "veganism" isn't
> >>>>>> really about ethics. *It's about smug self-satisfaction and sanctimony.
> >>>>>> * There is no valid ethics in "veganism" at all. *It isn't at all about
> >>>>>> identifying a moral and right course of action and then following it;
> >>>>>> it's only about self-exaltation over a completely phony issue.
> >>>>>> "vegans" have never shown, and never will be able to show, that it is
> >>>>>> unethical for humans to consume animal-derived products.
> >>>>> What's the fallacy in this argument?
> >>>>>http://www.uta.edu/philosophy/facult...ngel,%20The%20...
> >>>> Argument is unsound: *based on false premises.
> >>> Would you be able to specify one of the premises which is false?
> >> Among others, it is a false premise that greater resource usage to
> >> produce meat "proves" that meat is immoral.

>
> > That's not on his list of premises.

>
> It is.
>


Pffffffft.

The premises are numbered (p1)-(p16) in the Appendix. Care to specify
which number this premise is?

> >>> I take it you think that all my other remarks are unanswerable?
> >> Junk philosophy.


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On Dec 29, 11:32*am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
wrote:
> Rupert wrote:
> > On Dec 29, 11:06 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> > wrote:
> >> Rupert wrote:
> >>> On Dec 29, 7:30 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> Rupert wrote:
> >>>>> On Dec 27, 7:50 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Despite all the fancy pseudo-philosophical rhetoric, "veganism" isn't
> >>>>>> really about ethics. *It's about smug self-satisfaction and sanctimony.
> >>>>>> * There is no valid ethics in "veganism" at all. *It isn't at all about
> >>>>>> identifying a moral and right course of action and then following it;
> >>>>>> it's only about self-exaltation over a completely phony issue.
> >>>>>> "vegans" have never shown, and never will be able to show, that it is
> >>>>>> unethical for humans to consume animal-derived products.
> >>>>> What's the fallacy in this argument?
> >>>>>http://www.uta.edu/philosophy/facult...ngel,%20The%20...
> >>>> The fallacy is non sequitur: *he builds what he thinks is a compelling
> >>>> case against factory farming, then makes the unwarranted leap that *all*
> >>>> meat consumption is immoral.
> >>> He does make some remarks about how to make the further
> >>> generalisation,
> >> Unpersuasive.

>
> > That is not engaging with what he said.

>
> It's enough.
>


No.

>
>
> >> *He wants to show that *all* meat is immoral, but his case
> >> is fundamentally predicated on an overwrought caricature of "factory
> >> farming".

>
> >>>> Along the way, he belabors the same old, tired, inapplicable garbage
> >>>> about resource "inefficiency", which, as we have seen, is nonsense.
> >>> No, that paper does not contain the economic misconceptions which you
> >>> criticise.
> >> Absolutely it does: *pages 870-872 of his Section 3 include five
> >> environmental/economic points that are intended to cement the claim that
> >> meat consumption is immoral:

>
> >> 1. *allegedly extremely energy intensive
> >> 2. *allegedly inefficient use of water
> >> 3. *alleged nutrient inefficiency
> >> 4. *soil erosion
> >> 5. *hazardous waste production

>
> > For the purposes of making an *environmental* argument

>
> The pseudo "environmental" argument is idiotic, because he doesn't know
> what he's talking about. *For one thing, environmental degradation
> applies just as much to different types of fruit and vegetable
> agriculture. *For another, it is the economic cost of environmental
> degradation that is of concern. *No one with a brain wants to avoid any
> and all environmental degradation simply because it's "wrong"; we want
> to avoid environmental degradation whose social cost exceeds the social
> benefit. *There is going to be some environmental degradation involved
> in farming rice; the answer is not to stop all rice production.


First of all, the environmental argument is a separate one and you
still have an obligation to address the main one. Secondly, it's not
idiotic; the idea is that the externalities that you impose on other
people, including future generations, are not fully reflected in the
market price, but that you have a moral obligation to absorb those
externalities anyway. If you were absorbing all the externalities
associated with the production of your food then you would have to
take that on board when buying rice, fruit, vegetables, meat,
whatever. But his claim is that it would almost certainly involve
avoiding meat, and you've done nothing in particular to cast doubt on
that.
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On Dec 29, 11:12*am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
wrote:
> Rupert wrote:
> > On Dec 29, 10:05 am, "Dutch" > wrote:
> >> "Rupert" > wrote

>
> >> However, it is almost universally acknowledged that we have *some*
> >> obligations towards nonhumans, even some that are legitimately
> >> enforceable. I discussed this in a different thread. The question is
> >> whether they are sufficiently extensive that individuals like you and
> >> me who live in agriculturally bountiful societies and in no way need
> >> to consume animal products to survive, are morally required to adopt a
> >> lifestyle which involves almost completely avoiding the consumption of
> >> animal products.
> >> --------------->

>
> >> This is a non sequitur. Having obligations towards animals (e.g to minimize
> >> harm) or to see them as holding certain rights against us if you like, does
> >> not lead directly to the non-consumption of animal products, the two are not
> >> necessarily linked.

>
> > No such claim was made. The claim was that

>
> > (1) making a policy of boycotting animal products can be a rational
> > means of reducing one's contribution to animal suffering,

>
> No, it can't. *Not until you measure, and that means measuring *within*
> the set of vegetable food products. *If potatoes provide comparable
> nutrition to rice, but at much lower animal harm, less environmental
> degradation, lower energy inputs and less of any other harmful side
> effect of production and distribution, then you are *OBLIGED* to eat no
> rice, and to eat potatoes instead. *But no "vegan" has ever made that
> analysis, and none of them ever will.
>


Remember the moral principle of DeGrazia's that I advocated?

"Make every reasonable effort not to provide financial support for
institutions that cause or support unnecessary harm."

And Engel's premise 6:

"Even a minimally decent person would take steps to help
reduce the amount of unnecessary pain and suffering in the
world, if she could do so with very little effort."

Well, do those principles require you to boycott rice? Well, I don't
know. My level of rice consumption is small and I am fairly skeptical
that it's the world's biggest tragedy. With phrases such as "very
little effort" or "every reasonable effort", the cost of acquiring
information has to be factored in. Given the time constraints I am not
able to determine the optimal strategy for reducing my contribution to
unnecessary suffering and environmental degradation in the minutest
detail. I have put some effort into it, but I am not able to do
everything I can without substantially sacrificing my own personal
goals and also my ability to make the world better in other ways. We
are not talking about principles which require you to make
*substantial* sacrifices, especially when your ability to improve the
world in other ways is at stake.

Or maybe I haven't done a good job, maybe I am a moral hypocrite. If
your goal in life is to demonstrate that Rupert is a moral hypocrite
then that must be joyful. But the issue *should* be whether these are
good moral principles. I don't see any particular reason why they're
not.

> The fact that "vegans" do not attempt to "minimize" even with the set of
> vegetarian foods kills their entire argument (not that the argument had
> any credibility to start.) *


No. The behaviour of vegans has nothing to do with the merits of the
argument. The reasons most vegans don't do it is probably because the
issue hasn't occurred to them. They probably feel like they're doing
enough already, which may or may not be the case but this has no
bearing on the merits of the decision to go vegan in the first place.
When these issues were discussed in this newsgroup I did make some
effort to become more informed about such issues and modify my diet
accordingly but got bogged down in other projects, as you probably
would. Since as far as DeGrazia and Mylan Engel Jr. are concerned, we
are only talking about behavioural modifications that involve
"reasonable effort" or "little effort", I think it's probably fair to
say that I've met their standards. But that's neither here nor there
anyway, the issue should be whether there is a moral obligation to go
at least as far as what would be required by those principles I stated
above on any reasonable interpretation. You've offered no particularly
good reason to think that there isn't.

I *do* have to acknowledge moral hypocrisy as far as reducing my
contribution to climate change goes, for the moment at least. If you
can plausibly claim to be totally free of moral hypocrisy, that's
awesome. I'm not really that interested in discussing this issue here.
If I am a moral hypocrite then that's for me to worry about. We are
talking about the merits of the principles under discusion.

Demonstrating that someone is a moral hypocrite does not undermine
their moral argument; that is the tu quoque fallacy.

> *Some* "vegan" diets are higher in many
> undesirable side effects than *some* meat-including diets, so the fact
> of abstaining from meat /per se/ achieves nothing.


In most cases, the decision to go vegan will result in a significant
reduction in your contribution to animal suffering and environmental
degradation. More may be required, yes.


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On Dec 29, 1:05*pm, "Dutch" > wrote:
> "Rupert" > wrote
> On Dec 29, 10:05 am, "Dutch" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Rupert" > wrote

>
> > However, it is almost universally acknowledged that we have *some*
> > obligations towards nonhumans, even some that are legitimately
> > enforceable. I discussed this in a different thread. The question is
> > whether they are sufficiently extensive that individuals like you and
> > me who live in agriculturally bountiful societies and in no way need
> > to consume animal products to survive, are morally required to adopt a
> > lifestyle which involves almost completely avoiding the consumption of
> > animal products.
> > --------------->

>
> > This is a non sequitur. Having obligations towards animals (e.g to
> > minimize
> > harm) or to see them as holding certain rights against us if you like,
> > does
> > not lead directly to the non-consumption of animal products, the two are
> > not
> > necessarily linked.

>
> No such claim was made. The claim was that
> ------->
>
> Whatever you did that one post to allow the insertion of carats is not
> happening.
>
> (1) making a policy of boycotting animal products can be a rational
> means of reducing one's contribution to animal suffering
> -------->
>
> Nobody is denying that. That's the reasonable claim I mentioned earlier.
>


Jolly good. Actually, Ball *does* deny it. He replied to this very
same post to which you have just replied to and denied it. So you and
Ball differ. There it is.

But at least we have agreement on this point.

> , and Ball has
> done nothing to show that it is morally bankrupt (this is ****ing
> OBVIOUS)
> ---------->
>
> It's not morally bankrupt to avoid animal products, it isn't even a bad
> idea, it is morally bankrupt to transpose moral conclusions about it from
> the notion that animals must be liberated and project those conclusions onto
> others.
>


Did you have a look at the Mylan Engel Jr essay? I'd be interested in
your comment. I don't say that the essay is free of flaws but I don't
believe that simply putting forward the point of view is morally
bankrupt.

> [..]
>
> Working towards a world where nonhumans are not seen as commodities is
> a reasonable strategy with respect to the goal of having humans
> inflict less suffering on nonhumans.
> --------->
>
> I think it is an absurd strategy. For one thing hominids have included
> animal products as part of their survival strategy for millions of years,
> for another thing, a lot of land is unsuited for plant agriculture.


But the amount of land required for plant agriculture would be
enormously less...

> A
> reasonable strategy would be to work towards much higher standards of
> treatment for livestock animals, not rejecting AW as counter-productive as
> some ARAs do. Very high standards of care would make costs rise and that
> would decrease the number of animals *exploited* which is your underlying
> goal.


Well. That's the debate, isn't it.
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Default "veganism" isn't what it purports to be

Rupert wrote:
> On Dec 29, 10:56 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> wrote:
>> Rupert wrote:
>>> On Dec 29, 2:45 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>> wrote:
>>>> Rupert wrote:
>>>>> On Dec 27, 8:57 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Dutch wrote:
>>>>>>> "Ha" > wrote
>>>>>>>> ex-PFC Wintergreen wrote:
>>>>>>>>> All "vegans" start by believing a logical fallacy:
>>>>>>>>> If I consume animal products, I cause animals to suffer and die.
>>>>>>>>> I don't consume any animal products;
>>>>>>>>> therefore, I don't cause any animals to suffer and die.
>>>>>>>> All vegans?
>>>>>>>> rather a sweeping statement!
>>>>>>> You can replace "All vegans" with "Vegans" (in general) and not lose the
>>>>>>> validity of the message.
>>>>>>> Are you implicitly agreeing with the message but claiming to be an
>>>>>>> exception?
>>>>>> I don't have any problem making the assertion "all vegans". They do
>>>>>> *all* begin by believing that being "vegan" equates to living a
>>>>>> "cruelty-free" or "death-free" lifestyle.- Hide quoted text -
>>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>>> False. I have never believed that.
>>>> You have.- Hide quoted text -
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>> Well, whatever the truth of the matter is, I would certainly know.

>> We both know you began by believing in the fallacy.

>
> No, I know I didn't,


You did.
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Default "veganism" isn't what it purports to be

Rupert wrote:
> On Dec 29, 11:13 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> wrote:
>> Rupert wrote:
>>> On Dec 29, 10:57 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>> wrote:
>>>> Rupert wrote:
>>>>> On Dec 29, 2:46 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Rupert wrote:
>>>>>>> On Dec 27, 8:49 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Ha wrote:
>>>>>>>>> ex-PFC Wintergreen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> All "vegans" start by believing a logical fallacy:
>>>>>>>>>> If I consume animal products, I cause animals to suffer and die.
>>>>>>>>>> I don't consume any animal products;
>>>>>>>>>> therefore, I don't cause any animals to suffer and die.
>>>>>>>>> All vegans?
>>>>>>>> Without exception. They all start with that, and many - probably most -
>>>>>>>> never move off it. Look at the myriad "vegan" web sites that extol
>>>>>>>> "veganism" as a means of living a "cruelty-free" or "death-free"
>>>>>>>> lifestyle. Those people, by necessary implication, believe in the
>>>>>>>> logical fallacy.
>>>>>>> It's probably fair to say that it is quite widespread
>>>>>> Universal, at the outset. Most never abandon it.
>>>>> See the discussion in my other post.
>>>> See my well established fact, above: All "vegans" begin by believing in
>>>> the logical fallacy, and most never abandon it.
>>> No, "well established fact" is not the phrase you were looking for

>> Indeed it is what I was looking for.

>
> Well, that's a shame


I don't think so.
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Default "veganism" isn't what it purports to be

Rupert wrote:
> On Dec 29, 11:32 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> wrote:
>> Rupert wrote:
>>> On Dec 29, 11:06 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>> wrote:
>>>> Rupert wrote:
>>>>> On Dec 29, 7:30 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Rupert wrote:
>>>>>>> On Dec 27, 7:50 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Despite all the fancy pseudo-philosophical rhetoric, "veganism" isn't
>>>>>>>> really about ethics. It's about smug self-satisfaction and sanctimony.
>>>>>>>> There is no valid ethics in "veganism" at all. It isn't at all about
>>>>>>>> identifying a moral and right course of action and then following it;
>>>>>>>> it's only about self-exaltation over a completely phony issue.
>>>>>>>> "vegans" have never shown, and never will be able to show, that it is
>>>>>>>> unethical for humans to consume animal-derived products.
>>>>>>> What's the fallacy in this argument?
>>>>>>> http://www.uta.edu/philosophy/facult...ngel,%20The%20...
>>>>>> The fallacy is non sequitur: he builds what he thinks is a compelling
>>>>>> case against factory farming, then makes the unwarranted leap that *all*
>>>>>> meat consumption is immoral.
>>>>> He does make some remarks about how to make the further
>>>>> generalisation,
>>>> Unpersuasive.
>>> That is not engaging with what he said.

>> It's enough.
>>

>
> No.


It is.


>
>>
>>>> He wants to show that *all* meat is immoral, but his case
>>>> is fundamentally predicated on an overwrought caricature of "factory
>>>> farming".
>>>>>> Along the way, he belabors the same old, tired, inapplicable garbage
>>>>>> about resource "inefficiency", which, as we have seen, is nonsense.
>>>>> No, that paper does not contain the economic misconceptions which you
>>>>> criticise.
>>>> Absolutely it does: pages 870-872 of his Section 3 include five
>>>> environmental/economic points that are intended to cement the claim that
>>>> meat consumption is immoral:
>>>> 1. allegedly extremely energy intensive
>>>> 2. allegedly inefficient use of water
>>>> 3. alleged nutrient inefficiency
>>>> 4. soil erosion
>>>> 5. hazardous waste production
>>> For the purposes of making an *environmental* argument

>> The pseudo "environmental" argument is idiotic, because he doesn't know
>> what he's talking about. For one thing, environmental degradation
>> applies just as much to different types of fruit and vegetable
>> agriculture. For another, it is the economic cost of environmental
>> degradation that is of concern. No one with a brain wants to avoid any
>> and all environmental degradation simply because it's "wrong"; we want
>> to avoid environmental degradation whose social cost exceeds the social
>> benefit. There is going to be some environmental degradation involved
>> in farming rice; the answer is not to stop all rice production.

>
> First of all, the environmental argument is a separate one


It's another slender reed that won't support the bloated weight of what
he wants to believe.
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Default "veganism" isn't what it purports to be

Rupert wrote:
> On Dec 29, 11:12 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> wrote:
>> Rupert wrote:
>>> On Dec 29, 10:05 am, "Dutch" > wrote:
>>>> "Rupert" > wrote
>>>> However, it is almost universally acknowledged that we have *some*
>>>> obligations towards nonhumans, even some that are legitimately
>>>> enforceable. I discussed this in a different thread. The question is
>>>> whether they are sufficiently extensive that individuals like you and
>>>> me who live in agriculturally bountiful societies and in no way need
>>>> to consume animal products to survive, are morally required to adopt a
>>>> lifestyle which involves almost completely avoiding the consumption of
>>>> animal products.
>>>> --------------->
>>>> This is a non sequitur. Having obligations towards animals (e.g to minimize
>>>> harm) or to see them as holding certain rights against us if you like, does
>>>> not lead directly to the non-consumption of animal products, the two are not
>>>> necessarily linked.
>>> No such claim was made. The claim was that
>>> (1) making a policy of boycotting animal products can be a rational
>>> means of reducing one's contribution to animal suffering,

>> No, it can't. Not until you measure, and that means measuring *within*
>> the set of vegetable food products. If potatoes provide comparable
>> nutrition to rice, but at much lower animal harm, less environmental
>> degradation, lower energy inputs and less of any other harmful side
>> effect of production and distribution, then you are *OBLIGED* to eat no
>> rice, and to eat potatoes instead. But no "vegan" has ever made that
>> analysis, and none of them ever will.
>>

>
> Remember the moral principle of DeGrazia's that I advocated?
>
> "Make every reasonable effort not to provide financial support for
> institutions that cause or support unnecessary harm."


Something you don't achieve.


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Default "veganism" isn't what it purports to be

Rupert wrote:
> On Dec 29, 11:12 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> wrote:
>> Rupert wrote:
>>> On Dec 29, 10:05 am, "Dutch" > wrote:
>>>> "Rupert" > wrote
>>>> However, it is almost universally acknowledged that we have *some*
>>>> obligations towards nonhumans, even some that are legitimately
>>>> enforceable. I discussed this in a different thread. The question is
>>>> whether they are sufficiently extensive that individuals like you and
>>>> me who live in agriculturally bountiful societies and in no way need
>>>> to consume animal products to survive, are morally required to adopt a
>>>> lifestyle which involves almost completely avoiding the consumption of
>>>> animal products.
>>>> --------------->
>>>> This is a non sequitur. Having obligations towards animals (e.g to minimize
>>>> harm) or to see them as holding certain rights against us if you like, does
>>>> not lead directly to the non-consumption of animal products, the two are not
>>>> necessarily linked.
>>> No such claim was made. The claim was that
>>> (1) making a policy of boycotting animal products can be a rational
>>> means of reducing one's contribution to animal suffering,

>> No, it can't. Not until you measure, and that means measuring *within*
>> the set of vegetable food products. If potatoes provide comparable
>> nutrition to rice, but at much lower animal harm, less environmental
>> degradation, lower energy inputs and less of any other harmful side
>> effect of production and distribution, then you are *OBLIGED* to eat no
>> rice, and to eat potatoes instead. But no "vegan" has ever made that
>> analysis, and none of them ever will.
>>

>
> Remember the moral principle of DeGrazia's that I advocated?
>
> "Make every reasonable effort not to provide financial support for
> institutions that cause or support unnecessary harm."
>
> And Engel's premise 6:
>
> "Even a minimally decent person would take steps to help
> reduce the amount of unnecessary pain and suffering in the
> world, if she could do so with very little effort."
>
> Well, do those principles require you to boycott rice? Well, I don't
> know. My level of rice consumption is small and I am fairly skeptical
> that it's the world's biggest tragedy. With phrases such as "very
> little effort" or "every reasonable effort", the cost of acquiring
> information has to be factored in. Given the time constraints I am not
> able to determine the optimal strategy for reducing my contribution to
> unnecessary suffering and environmental degradation in the minutest
> detail. I have put some effort into it,


Laughably little.


> but I am not able to do
> everything I can without substantially sacrificing my own personal
> goals


So your inherent selfishness and wish for ease, comfort and glory
override your obligation to behave ethically. But then, that was always
obvious.


>> The fact that "vegans" do not attempt to "minimize" even with the set of
>> vegetarian foods kills their entire argument (not that the argument had
>> any credibility to start.)

>
> No. The behaviour of vegans has nothing to do with the merits of the
> argument.


Absolutely it does. It proves they don't believe their own nonsense.
It proves this is purely about self exaltation.
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On Dec 29, 3:56*pm, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
wrote:
> Rupert wrote:
> > On Dec 29, 10:56 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> > wrote:
> >> Rupert wrote:
> >>> On Dec 29, 2:45 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> Rupert wrote:
> >>>>> On Dec 27, 8:57 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Dutch wrote:
> >>>>>>> "Ha" > wrote
> >>>>>>>> ex-PFC Wintergreen wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> All "vegans" start by believing a logical fallacy:
> >>>>>>>>> * * If I consume animal products, I cause animals to suffer and die.
> >>>>>>>>> * * I don't consume any animal products;
> >>>>>>>>> * * therefore, I don't cause any animals to suffer and die.
> >>>>>>>> All vegans?
> >>>>>>>> rather a sweeping statement!
> >>>>>>> You can replace "All vegans" with "Vegans" (in general) and not lose the
> >>>>>>> validity of the message.
> >>>>>>> Are you implicitly agreeing with the message but claiming to be an
> >>>>>>> exception?
> >>>>>> I don't have any problem making the assertion "all vegans". *They do
> >>>>>> *all* begin by believing that being "vegan" equates to living a
> >>>>>> "cruelty-free" or "death-free" lifestyle.- Hide quoted text -
> >>>>>> - Show quoted text -
> >>>>> False. I have never believed that.
> >>>> You have.- Hide quoted text -
> >>>> - Show quoted text -
> >>> Well, whatever the truth of the matter is, I would certainly know.
> >> We both know you began by believing in the fallacy.

>
> > No, I know I didn't,

>
> You did.


Yawn.
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Default "veganism" isn't what it purports to be

On Dec 29, 3:56*pm, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
wrote:
> Rupert wrote:
> > On Dec 29, 11:13 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> > wrote:
> >> Rupert wrote:
> >>> On Dec 29, 10:57 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> Rupert wrote:
> >>>>> On Dec 29, 2:46 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Rupert wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Dec 27, 8:49 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Ha wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> ex-PFC Wintergreen wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> All "vegans" start by believing a logical fallacy:
> >>>>>>>>>> * * If I consume animal products, I cause animals to suffer and die.
> >>>>>>>>>> * * I don't consume any animal products;
> >>>>>>>>>> * * therefore, I don't cause any animals to suffer and die..
> >>>>>>>>> All vegans?
> >>>>>>>> Without exception. *They all start with that, and many - probably most -
> >>>>>>>> never move off it. *Look at the myriad "vegan" web sites that extol
> >>>>>>>> "veganism" as a means of living a "cruelty-free" or "death-free"
> >>>>>>>> lifestyle. *Those people, by necessary implication, believe in the
> >>>>>>>> logical fallacy.
> >>>>>>> It's probably fair to say that it is quite widespread
> >>>>>> Universal, at the outset. *Most never abandon it.
> >>>>> See the discussion in my other post.
> >>>> See my well established fact, above: *All "vegans" begin by believing in
> >>>> the logical fallacy, and most never abandon it.
> >>> No, "well established fact" is not the phrase you were looking for
> >> Indeed it is what I was looking for.

>
> > Well, that's a shame

>
> I don't think so.


Whatever process you use for belief-formation, you should work on
making it more truth-tracking.
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On Dec 29, 3:57*pm, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
wrote:
> Rupert wrote:
> > On Dec 29, 11:32 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> > wrote:
> >> Rupert wrote:
> >>> On Dec 29, 11:06 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> Rupert wrote:
> >>>>> On Dec 29, 7:30 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>> Rupert wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Dec 27, 7:50 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Despite all the fancy pseudo-philosophical rhetoric, "veganism" isn't
> >>>>>>>> really about ethics. *It's about smug self-satisfaction and sanctimony.
> >>>>>>>> * There is no valid ethics in "veganism" at all. *It isn't at all about
> >>>>>>>> identifying a moral and right course of action and then following it;
> >>>>>>>> it's only about self-exaltation over a completely phony issue.
> >>>>>>>> "vegans" have never shown, and never will be able to show, that it is
> >>>>>>>> unethical for humans to consume animal-derived products.
> >>>>>>> What's the fallacy in this argument?
> >>>>>>>http://www.uta.edu/philosophy/facult...ngel,%20The%20...
> >>>>>> The fallacy is non sequitur: *he builds what he thinks is a compelling
> >>>>>> case against factory farming, then makes the unwarranted leap that *all*
> >>>>>> meat consumption is immoral.
> >>>>> He does make some remarks about how to make the further
> >>>>> generalisation,
> >>>> Unpersuasive.
> >>> That is not engaging with what he said.
> >> It's enough.

>
> > No.

>
> It is.
>


Enough for what?

Enough to achieve whatever it is you get out of being here, no doubt,
but why would anyone care about that?

Enough to make a satisfactory response, obviously not.

Sheesh.

>
>
>
>
> >>>> *He wants to show that *all* meat is immoral, but his case
> >>>> is fundamentally predicated on an overwrought caricature of "factory
> >>>> farming".
> >>>>>> Along the way, he belabors the same old, tired, inapplicable garbage
> >>>>>> about resource "inefficiency", which, as we have seen, is nonsense..
> >>>>> No, that paper does not contain the economic misconceptions which you
> >>>>> criticise.
> >>>> Absolutely it does: *pages 870-872 of his Section 3 include five
> >>>> environmental/economic points that are intended to cement the claim that
> >>>> meat consumption is immoral:
> >>>> 1. *allegedly extremely energy intensive
> >>>> 2. *allegedly inefficient use of water
> >>>> 3. *alleged nutrient inefficiency
> >>>> 4. *soil erosion
> >>>> 5. *hazardous waste production
> >>> For the purposes of making an *environmental* argument
> >> The pseudo "environmental" argument is idiotic, because he doesn't know
> >> what he's talking about. *For one thing, environmental degradation
> >> applies just as much to different types of fruit and vegetable
> >> agriculture. *For another, it is the economic cost of environmental
> >> degradation that is of concern. *No one with a brain wants to avoid any
> >> and all environmental degradation simply because it's "wrong"; we want
> >> to avoid environmental degradation whose social cost exceeds the social
> >> benefit. *There is going to be some environmental degradation involved
> >> in farming rice; the answer is not to stop all rice production.

>
> > First of all, the environmental argument is a separate one

>
> It's another slender reed that won't support the bloated weight of what
> he wants to believe.


Why did you snip the rest of the paragraph?
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On Dec 29, 3:58*pm, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
wrote:
> Rupert wrote:
> > On Dec 29, 11:12 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> > wrote:
> >> Rupert wrote:
> >>> On Dec 29, 10:05 am, "Dutch" > wrote:
> >>>> "Rupert" > wrote
> >>>> However, it is almost universally acknowledged that we have *some*
> >>>> obligations towards nonhumans, even some that are legitimately
> >>>> enforceable. I discussed this in a different thread. The question is
> >>>> whether they are sufficiently extensive that individuals like you and
> >>>> me who live in agriculturally bountiful societies and in no way need
> >>>> to consume animal products to survive, are morally required to adopt a
> >>>> lifestyle which involves almost completely avoiding the consumption of
> >>>> animal products.
> >>>> --------------->
> >>>> This is a non sequitur. Having obligations towards animals (e.g to minimize
> >>>> harm) or to see them as holding certain rights against us if you like, does
> >>>> not lead directly to the non-consumption of animal products, the two are not
> >>>> necessarily linked.
> >>> No such claim was made. The claim was that
> >>> (1) making a policy of boycotting animal products can be a rational
> >>> means of reducing one's contribution to animal suffering,
> >> No, it can't. *Not until you measure, and that means measuring *within*
> >> the set of vegetable food products. *If potatoes provide comparable
> >> nutrition to rice, but at much lower animal harm, less environmental
> >> degradation, lower energy inputs and less of any other harmful side
> >> effect of production and distribution, then you are *OBLIGED* to eat no
> >> rice, and to eat potatoes instead. *But no "vegan" has ever made that
> >> analysis, and none of them ever will.

>
> > Remember the moral principle of DeGrazia's that I advocated?

>
> > "Make every reasonable effort not to provide financial support for
> > institutions that cause or support unnecessary harm."

>
> Something you don't achieve.


Why do you think that?


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Rupert wrote:
> On Dec 29, 3:56 pm, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> wrote:
>> Rupert wrote:
>>> On Dec 29, 10:56 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>> wrote:
>>>> Rupert wrote:
>>>>> On Dec 29, 2:45 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Rupert wrote:
>>>>>>> On Dec 27, 8:57 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Dutch wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Ha" > wrote
>>>>>>>>>> ex-PFC Wintergreen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> All "vegans" start by believing a logical fallacy:
>>>>>>>>>>> If I consume animal products, I cause animals to suffer and die.
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't consume any animal products;
>>>>>>>>>>> therefore, I don't cause any animals to suffer and die.
>>>>>>>>>> All vegans?
>>>>>>>>>> rather a sweeping statement!
>>>>>>>>> You can replace "All vegans" with "Vegans" (in general) and not lose the
>>>>>>>>> validity of the message.
>>>>>>>>> Are you implicitly agreeing with the message but claiming to be an
>>>>>>>>> exception?
>>>>>>>> I don't have any problem making the assertion "all vegans". They do
>>>>>>>> *all* begin by believing that being "vegan" equates to living a
>>>>>>>> "cruelty-free" or "death-free" lifestyle.- Hide quoted text -
>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>>>>> False. I have never believed that.
>>>>>> You have.- Hide quoted text -
>>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>>> Well, whatever the truth of the matter is, I would certainly know.
>>>> We both know you began by believing in the fallacy.
>>> No, I know I didn't,

>> You did.

>
> Yawn.


Not an argument; not even a claim.
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Rupert wrote:
> On Dec 29, 3:56 pm, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> wrote:
>> Rupert wrote:
>>> On Dec 29, 11:13 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>> wrote:
>>>> Rupert wrote:
>>>>> On Dec 29, 10:57 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Rupert wrote:
>>>>>>> On Dec 29, 2:46 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Rupert wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Dec 27, 8:49 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Ha wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> ex-PFC Wintergreen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> All "vegans" start by believing a logical fallacy:
>>>>>>>>>>>> If I consume animal products, I cause animals to suffer and die.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't consume any animal products;
>>>>>>>>>>>> therefore, I don't cause any animals to suffer and die.
>>>>>>>>>>> All vegans?
>>>>>>>>>> Without exception. They all start with that, and many - probably most -
>>>>>>>>>> never move off it. Look at the myriad "vegan" web sites that extol
>>>>>>>>>> "veganism" as a means of living a "cruelty-free" or "death-free"
>>>>>>>>>> lifestyle. Those people, by necessary implication, believe in the
>>>>>>>>>> logical fallacy.
>>>>>>>>> It's probably fair to say that it is quite widespread
>>>>>>>> Universal, at the outset. Most never abandon it.
>>>>>>> See the discussion in my other post.
>>>>>> See my well established fact, above: All "vegans" begin by believing in
>>>>>> the logical fallacy, and most never abandon it.
>>>>> No, "well established fact" is not the phrase you were looking for
>>>> Indeed it is what I was looking for.
>>> Well, that's a shame

>> I don't think so.

>
> Whatever process you use for belief-formation


Logic and rational analysis.
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Default "veganism" isn't what it purports to be

Rupert wrote:
> On Dec 29, 3:57 pm, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> wrote:
>> Rupert wrote:
>>> On Dec 29, 11:32 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>> wrote:
>>>> Rupert wrote:
>>>>> On Dec 29, 11:06 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Rupert wrote:
>>>>>>> On Dec 29, 7:30 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Rupert wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Dec 27, 7:50 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Despite all the fancy pseudo-philosophical rhetoric, "veganism" isn't
>>>>>>>>>> really about ethics. It's about smug self-satisfaction and sanctimony.
>>>>>>>>>> There is no valid ethics in "veganism" at all. It isn't at all about
>>>>>>>>>> identifying a moral and right course of action and then following it;
>>>>>>>>>> it's only about self-exaltation over a completely phony issue.
>>>>>>>>>> "vegans" have never shown, and never will be able to show, that it is
>>>>>>>>>> unethical for humans to consume animal-derived products.
>>>>>>>>> What's the fallacy in this argument?
>>>>>>>>> http://www.uta.edu/philosophy/facult...ngel,%20The%20...
>>>>>>>> The fallacy is non sequitur: he builds what he thinks is a compelling
>>>>>>>> case against factory farming, then makes the unwarranted leap that *all*
>>>>>>>> meat consumption is immoral.
>>>>>>> He does make some remarks about how to make the further
>>>>>>> generalisation,
>>>>>> Unpersuasive.
>>>>> That is not engaging with what he said.
>>>> It's enough.
>>> No.

>> It is.
>>

>
> Enough for what?


Enough to engage what he said.
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Default "veganism" isn't what it purports to be

Rupert wrote:
> On Dec 29, 3:58 pm, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
> wrote:
>> Rupert wrote:
>>> On Dec 29, 11:12 am, ex-PFC Wintergreen >
>>> wrote:
>>>> Rupert wrote:
>>>>> On Dec 29, 10:05 am, "Dutch" > wrote:
>>>>>> "Rupert" > wrote
>>>>>> However, it is almost universally acknowledged that we have *some*
>>>>>> obligations towards nonhumans, even some that are legitimately
>>>>>> enforceable. I discussed this in a different thread. The question is
>>>>>> whether they are sufficiently extensive that individuals like you and
>>>>>> me who live in agriculturally bountiful societies and in no way need
>>>>>> to consume animal products to survive, are morally required to adopt a
>>>>>> lifestyle which involves almost completely avoiding the consumption of
>>>>>> animal products.
>>>>>> --------------->
>>>>>> This is a non sequitur. Having obligations towards animals (e.g to minimize
>>>>>> harm) or to see them as holding certain rights against us if you like, does
>>>>>> not lead directly to the non-consumption of animal products, the two are not
>>>>>> necessarily linked.
>>>>> No such claim was made. The claim was that
>>>>> (1) making a policy of boycotting animal products can be a rational
>>>>> means of reducing one's contribution to animal suffering,
>>>> No, it can't. Not until you measure, and that means measuring *within*
>>>> the set of vegetable food products. If potatoes provide comparable
>>>> nutrition to rice, but at much lower animal harm, less environmental
>>>> degradation, lower energy inputs and less of any other harmful side
>>>> effect of production and distribution, then you are *OBLIGED* to eat no
>>>> rice, and to eat potatoes instead. But no "vegan" has ever made that
>>>> analysis, and none of them ever will.
>>> Remember the moral principle of DeGrazia's that I advocated?
>>> "Make every reasonable effort not to provide financial support for
>>> institutions that cause or support unnecessary harm."

>> Something you don't achieve.

>
> Why do you think that?


Your own admission.
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Default "veganism" isn't what it purports to be


"Rupert" > wrote in message
...
On Dec 29, 11:01 am, "Dutch" > wrote:
> "Rupert" > wrote
>
> Never in my life have I believed that the typical vegan lifestyle does
> not involving buying any products whose production contributes to the
> suffering and premature death of sentient nonhumans. I was well aware
> that that was not the case in adolescence, before I seriously
> contemplated giving up meat, and frequently discussed the point with
> my friends. I would certainly be aware of the truth of that matter one
> way or the other. I believe you once remarked that I had no reason to
> disbelieve Dutch about some testimony that he gave, well, you have no
> rational grounds whatsoever for disbelieving this testimony.
> ---------->
>
> Again, the elephant in the room, the REAL issue, the issue of viewing
> animals as commodities. I think the concern is misguided politicking.
>
> Veganism clearly addresses that issue, but vegans frequently confuse,
> conflate and equivocate that issue with issues of legitimate concern, like
> health, the environment and animal suffering. Don't assume that by
> avoiding
> that sauce or substituting that tofu steak for that salmon steak you
> contributed to lessening animal suffering in any meaningful way, even
> though
> you fulfilled your goal to remain pure, to avoid being an "exploiter"
> using
> animals *as end products*.
>


I'm not sure what your point is here,
------>

I could hardly make it any clearer, *veganism*, the substitition of products
which do not contain animal parts, fulfils the principle of not *exploiting
animals as commodities* but does not elevate or deify the vegan in any way
more than the omnivore who also takes steps to reduce his impact. Being a
vegan *overall* probably has a positive effect in this regard, but it
carries the risk of turning the person into an anal-retentive nit who
studies the small print on bottles of sauce in dimply-lit restaurants,
sneers secretively at people in the meat aisle, and drops unsolicited
insulting, not-very-subtle suggestions to others about how they should eat.

I thought we were agreed that a
widespread transition to veganism would lead to a significant
reduction in animal suffering.
---------->

It might, but the issue I just brought up essentially wipes out that
advantage in my opinion.


By being vegan and publicly defending
this stance I am doing my bit to reduce my share of responsibility for
the problem.
------>

Why should you defend it? so does the person who consumes less, consumes
fewer imported goods, etc.

> Personally it does not bother me that animals are viewed as commodities,
> as
> long as their capacity to suffer pain and deprivation is taken into
> account.


Which they clearly aren't...
------------>

That is something that can be addressed, and it is a more practical and
straightforward solution than equating omnivorism with cannibalism, or
murder, which is essentially what vegans try to do, the honest ones.


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