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  #76 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 16-10-2004, 07:28 AM
magnulus
 
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"Digger" wrote in message
...
Vegetarian comes from the Latin "vegetus"
(vigorous, energetic), which doesn't mean "vegetable".


Then, to regard or announce oneself as a vegetarian,
all one need do is equivocate on the term and hope
no one realises they aren't trying to fool others when
inwardly referring to a definition of vegetarianism


The word "vegetarian" doesn't come from the word "vegetable", although
both words have similar origins in Latin. Just because a food is not a
vegetable, doesn't mean it isn't necessarily vegetarian. Vegetarianism is
the US, and to a certain extent, in Britain, was started mostly as a health
movement, by such people as Kellog and early Seventh Day Adventists. They
believed that meat was polluting to the body, and hence, was not really a
life-giving food. So they chose the name "vegetarian" to reffer to the
life-giving, energy producing properties of their diet. They could have
well called themselves holerians (from Latin holus - herb, vegetable) if
they wanted to emphasize their depedence on greens, but they did not.

Some people before then did not eat meat out of conscience (Pythagoras,
Ovid, Tolstoy, etc.), but they did not call themselves vegetarians. As
years passed, and the influence of Indian/Buddhist vegetarianism and
religious beliefs and the animal welfare and animal rights movement,
vegetarianism became assosciated more with an ethical choice not to eat
animals. But even today many vgetarians find the health or environmental
rationale for their diet the most compelling.

The name "vegan" is truely a synthetic name and was created in England in
1944 by a group of vegetarians who did not eat eggs or dairy products and
wanted to avoid the consumption of (nonhuman) animal products.



  #77 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 16-10-2004, 08:28 AM
Digger
 
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On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 02:28:30 -0400, "magnulus" wrote:
"Digger" wrote in message ...

Vegetarian comes from the Latin "vegetus"
(vigorous, energetic), which doesn't mean "vegetable".


Then, to regard or announce oneself as a vegetarian,
all one need do is equivocate on the term and hope
no one realises they aren't trying to fool others when
inwardly referring to a definition of vegetarianism


The word "vegetarian" doesn't come from the word "vegetable", although
both words have similar origins in Latin. Just because a food is not a
vegetable, doesn't mean it isn't necessarily vegetarian.


Then, just as I wrote earlier but which you obviously
chose to ignore, to regard or announce oneself as a
vegetarian, all one need do is equivocate on the term
and hope no one realises they're in fact using the
term to define themselves as something other than
what people usually regard as vegetarians that feed
on vegetation rather than animal foodstuff.
  #78 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 16-10-2004, 10:00 AM
Dutch
 
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"magnulus" wrote ...

"Dutch" wrote


The one interesting fact coming from this debate is that, contrary to
what
some vegans try to portray, no human is born a natural vegan, the first
natural human food is primarily animal fat and protein.


Human breast milk is only 5 percent protein.


That's not very clever, a more pertinent response to my observation is that
all mammals, even total herbivores, begin by surviving on breast milk.

Saying that vegetarians or vegans do not consume some animal products is
false... they do.


Elaborate please.

But breast milk is not nonvegan or nonvegeterian.


I agree, for the reason I stated above, breast milk is not really part of
the "diet", any more than amniotic fluid.

The
simple fact is the word "vegetarian" does not mean a person exists
exclusively by eating plants or vegetables- the root of the word
"vegetarian" means "lively, vigorous"- not vegetable.


So as long as I'm lively I can call myself a vegetarian? Interesting idea.


  #79 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 16-10-2004, 10:00 AM
Digger
 
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On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 18:50:59 -0700, "Dutch" wrote:


"Digger" wrote
[..]

Rather, your conception of a vegan is flawed. Suckling
babies aren't vegans, so the definition of a vegan as a
person that doesn't drink milk remains the same and isn't
flawed, despite your misconception.


The one interesting fact coming from this debate is that, contrary to what
some vegans try to portray, no human is born a natural vegan, the first
natural human food is primarily animal fat and protein.


That's very true. Another interesting fact is that sucklings;

suck·ling;
n.
A young mammal that has not been weaned.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=suckling

once weaned can be either obligate carnivores or animals
that feed exclusively on vegetation.
  #80 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 16-10-2004, 10:04 AM
Dutch
 
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"magnulus" wrote

The word "vegetarian" doesn't come from the word "vegetable", although
both words have similar origins in Latin. Just because a food is not a
vegetable, doesn't mean it isn't necessarily vegetarian.


The most widely understood meaning of vegetarian is a person who does not
eat meat.





  #81 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 16-10-2004, 10:14 AM
Digger
 
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On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 02:00:19 -0700, "Dutch" wrote:
"magnulus" wrote ...

But breast milk is not nonvegan or nonvegeterian.


I agree,


Then, breast milk is vegan, is it? Take away the double-
negative in "breast milk is *not* *non*vegan" and you're
left with, "breast milk is vegan".

for the reason I stated above, breast milk is not really part of
the "diet", any more than amniotic fluid.


Nonsense. Breast milk is the usual diet given to
sucklings.

di·et
n.
The usual food and drink of a person or animal.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=diet

Babies have a diet like any other animal does.

The
simple fact is the word "vegetarian" does not mean a person exists
exclusively by eating plants or vegetables- the root of the word
"vegetarian" means "lively, vigorous"- not vegetable.


So as long as I'm lively I can call myself a vegetarian? Interesting idea.


  #82 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 16-10-2004, 10:17 AM
Dutch
 
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"Digger" wrote
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 18:50:59 -0700, "Dutch" wrote:


"Digger" wrote
[..]

Rather, your conception of a vegan is flawed. Suckling
babies aren't vegans, so the definition of a vegan as a
person that doesn't drink milk remains the same and isn't
flawed, despite your misconception.


The one interesting fact coming from this debate is that, contrary to what
some vegans try to portray, no human is born a natural vegan, the first
natural human food is primarily animal fat and protein.


That's very true. Another interesting fact is that sucklings;

suck·ling;
n.
A young mammal that has not been weaned.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=suckling

once weaned can be either obligate carnivores or animals
that feed exclusively on vegetation.


Doesn't even depend on weaning, suckling may go on for quite some time even
after the animal has commenced it's normal diet, but breast milk, although
it's food, is in a food category all it's own, apart from "diet", which
really pertains to *other* food.


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Old 16-10-2004, 10:20 AM
Digger
 
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On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 02:17:12 -0700, "Dutch" wrote:
"Digger" wrote
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 18:50:59 -0700, "Dutch" wrote:
"Digger" wrote
[..]

Rather, your conception of a vegan is flawed. Suckling
babies aren't vegans, so the definition of a vegan as a
person that doesn't drink milk remains the same and isn't
flawed, despite your misconception.

The one interesting fact coming from this debate is that, contrary to what
some vegans try to portray, no human is born a natural vegan, the first
natural human food is primarily animal fat and protein.


That's very true. Another interesting fact is that sucklings;

suck·ling;
n.
A young mammal that has not been weaned.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=suckling

once weaned can be either obligate carnivores or animals
that feed exclusively on vegetation.


Doesn't even depend on weaning, suckling may go on for quite some time even
after the animal has commenced it's normal diet, but breast milk, although
it's food, is in a food category all it's own, apart from "diet", which
really pertains to *other* food.


No. A diet, simply put, is the usual food and drink of
person or animal.

di·et
n.
The usual food and drink of a person or animal.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=diet

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Old 16-10-2004, 10:20 AM
Digger
 
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On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 02:17:12 -0700, "Dutch" wrote:
"Digger" wrote
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 18:50:59 -0700, "Dutch" wrote:
"Digger" wrote
[..]

Rather, your conception of a vegan is flawed. Suckling
babies aren't vegans, so the definition of a vegan as a
person that doesn't drink milk remains the same and isn't
flawed, despite your misconception.

The one interesting fact coming from this debate is that, contrary to what
some vegans try to portray, no human is born a natural vegan, the first
natural human food is primarily animal fat and protein.


That's very true. Another interesting fact is that sucklings;

suck·ling;
n.
A young mammal that has not been weaned.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=suckling

once weaned can be either obligate carnivores or animals
that feed exclusively on vegetation.


Doesn't even depend on weaning, suckling may go on for quite some time even
after the animal has commenced it's normal diet, but breast milk, although
it's food, is in a food category all it's own, apart from "diet", which
really pertains to *other* food.


No. A diet, simply put, is the usual food and drink of
person or animal.

di·et
n.
The usual food and drink of a person or animal.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=diet

  #85 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 16-10-2004, 10:34 AM
magnulus
 
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"Dutch" wrote in message
...

"magnulus" wrote

The word "vegetarian" doesn't come from the word "vegetable", although
both words have similar origins in Latin. Just because a food is not a
vegetable, doesn't mean it isn't necessarily vegetarian.


The most widely understood meaning of vegetarian is a person who does not
eat meat.


Bingo.




  #86 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 16-10-2004, 10:44 AM
magnulus
 
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"Dutch" wrote in message
...
That's not very clever, a more pertinent response to my observation is

that
all mammals, even total herbivores, begin by surviving on breast milk.


True.


Saying that vegetarians or vegans do not consume some animal products

is
false... they do.


Elaborate please.


Well, a baby that would be raised vegan might consume breast milk if the
mother is capable of doing that (not all are, after all), and we have
established that breast milk is most certainly an animal product in the
strict sense. And of course, vegetarians consume animal products like
honey, eggs, and dairy products.


The
simple fact is the word "vegetarian" does not mean a person exists
exclusively by eating plants or vegetables- the root of the word
"vegetarian" means "lively, vigorous"- not vegetable.


So as long as I'm lively I can call myself a vegetarian? Interesting idea.


No... not anymore than if some car company calls their latest car the
"Tiburon", it becomes a carnivorous fish (Tiburon- Spanish word for
"shark").

Vegetarian has a meaning with which people who don't eat meat have
self-identified, a meater eater calling himself a vegetarian would be just
like calling a white guy who wears cork on his face an African-American.


  #87 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 16-10-2004, 10:48 AM
Digger
 
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On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 05:44:07 -0400, "magnulus" wrote:
"Dutch" wrote in message ...


Saying that vegetarians or vegans do not consume some
animal products is false... they do.


Elaborate please.


Well, a baby that would be raised vegan might consume breast milk


And while it's suckling it is not a vegan.

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Old 16-10-2004, 11:22 AM
Digger
 
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On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 05:34:41 -0400, "magnulus" wrote:
"Dutch" wrote in message ...
"magnulus" wrote

The word "vegetarian" doesn't come from the word "vegetable", although
both words have similar origins in Latin. Just because a food is not a
vegetable, doesn't mean it isn't necessarily vegetarian.


The most widely understood meaning of vegetarian is a person who does not
eat meat.


Bingo.


Then why do you announce yourself as a vegetarian while
inwardly referring to another definition of vegetarian? Why
not be honest with yourself and others, and refer to yourself
as a meat eater like other meat eaters do. Why pretend you're
someone you aren't?

  #89 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 16-10-2004, 12:26 PM
pearl
 
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"Digger" wrote in message ...
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:40:29 +0100, "pearl" wrote:

"C. James Strutz" wrote in message ...

there are NO eggs that are sourced ethically.


I'd have to disagree with that. These are 'my' chickens;
http://www.iol.ie/~creature/vicious.html (the 'commentary'
is obviously sarcasm). They'll lay eggs, and leave them.


Probably the most sickening example of overgrazing
I've ever seen! ;-)


The bare patch is recently-shifted earth, and it was taken early spring.

The problem with this is that you can't source any food from animals
without exploiting them in some way.


I hand-raised a nanny goat, who quite happily provides milk.


Perfectly ethical to drink, in my opinion, even though
I believe it's not a vegan food item.


Vegan, it isn't. Ethically obtained, it is.

Her kid is grown and still with her- weaned in her own time.


Now you've done it! What's a female kid called: a kiddoe
or something?


A female kid.




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Old 16-10-2004, 12:36 PM
Digger
 
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On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 12:26:12 +0100, "pearl" wrote:
"Digger" wrote in message ...
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:40:29 +0100, "pearl" wrote:
"C. James Strutz" wrote in message ...

there are NO eggs that are sourced ethically.

I'd have to disagree with that. These are 'my' chickens;
http://www.iol.ie/~creature/vicious.html (the 'commentary'
is obviously sarcasm). They'll lay eggs, and leave them.


Probably the most sickening example of overgrazing
I've ever seen! ;-)


The bare patch is recently-shifted earth, and it was taken early spring.


I was only kidding. Lovely looking birds btw, especially
the black and white one in the first photo and the
coloured one in the second.

The problem with this is that you can't source any food from animals
without exploiting them in some way.

I hand-raised a nanny goat, who quite happily provides milk.


Perfectly ethical to drink, in my opinion, even though
I believe it's not a vegan food item.


Vegan, it isn't. Ethically obtained, it is.


I totally agree.

Her kid is grown and still with her- weaned in her own time.


Now you've done it! What's a female kid called: a kiddoe
or something?


A female kid.


Females are does, so why not call them kiddoes, kiddo? ;-)


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