Hi;

I went to the NAVS annual 5 day live in convention ( Summfest ) this
year for my vacation.

It is 5 days of lectures ( and gourmet vegan food ) on all aspects of
vegetarianism.

Dr. Michael Klapper, Dr. Michael Gregor, Brenda Davis RD, and George
Eisman RD were speaking at it as well as attending Summerfest.

They worked with the staff of Summerfest to make sure everyone attending
got a special message from them. That message was that many vegetarians
and vegans are not taking care of themselves, .....even minimally.

Dr. Michael Klapper has been running a vegan health research project.
He was very serious when he told us that he is seeing a lot of vegans
with cardiovascular disease ( b-12 deficiency),
neurological issues (b-12), osteoporosis, orthopedic issues, type 2
diabetes ( too many flour products and sweets ) and even clinical
obesity( flour products, sweets, junkfood ).

The other vegan health experts there confirmed Dr. Klapper's findings
with their own clinical experiences.

In a nutshell, Dr. Klapper said many of the problems he has seen go
back to vegans ( and vegetarians ) needing to regularly use a reliable
source of vitamin B-12, increasing their calcium intake, increasing
their intake of fresh green vegetables, increasing their intake of fresh
yellow/orange vegetables, securing a source of iodine, securing a source
of essential fatty acids, reducing their consumption of sweets,
minimizing their use of refined flour products (pasta, breads, bagels,
etc.), reducing sodium, reducing consumption of processed foods and
getting more exercise. This is not a new message, but the experts at
Summerfest emphasized -- with a palpable sense of caring and urgency --
that many vegetarians and vegans are simply not following this advice,
to their great detriment.

I would have to write a book to go into all of the fascinating details,
but Summerfest speaker Brenda Davis, RD has already revised her great
book "Becoming Vegetarian" to cover these issues. The book covers both
veganism and vegetarianism and I recommend it to everyone as being the
best veg*n nutrition book I have ever read.

Anyway, sorry to blather on and for being overly serious, but the talks
I went to made a big impression on me. These speakers were experts, pro
vegan, pro vegetarian, and WORRIED about the community.

HTH

Steve

"Steve" > wrote in message
...
> Hi;
>
> I went to the NAVS annual 5 day live in convention ( Summfest ) this year
> for my vacation.

I would have liked to participate in such an event. For the past 4 years
I have been vegan and for around 2-3 years before that I was a vegetarian
that consumed milk products. It is really starting to hit me that my health
is suffering because I do not have a healthy diet. I mostly eat pasta and
pizza, and drink water. I've supplements to take, but tend to forget doing
so. Objects in the distance begin to appear blurry if I haven't taken the
supplements for a few days and I'll have mood swings. I guess I _really_am_
harming my body and I better clue in to reality before it is too late.
Thanks for the post!

I'd appreciate any good links you have on nutrition and being a vegan,
if you'd be so kind as to provide them.

Thank you, Adam.

"Steve" > wrote in message
...
> Hi;
>
> I went to the NAVS annual 5 day live in convention ( Summfest ) this year
> for my vacation.

I would have liked to participate in such an event. For the past 4 years
I have been vegan and for around 2-3 years before that I was a vegetarian
that consumed milk products. It is really starting to hit me that my health
is suffering because I do not have a healthy diet. I mostly eat pasta and
pizza, and drink water. I've supplements to take, but tend to forget doing
so. Objects in the distance begin to appear blurry if I haven't taken the
supplements for a few days and I'll have mood swings. I guess I _really_am_
harming my body and I better clue in to reality before it is too late.
Thanks for the post!

I'd appreciate any good links you have on nutrition and being a vegan,
if you'd be so kind as to provide them.

Thank you, Adam.

Adam wrote:
> I'd appreciate any good links you have on nutrition and being a vegan,
> if you'd be so kind as to provide them.

You can try The Vegetarian Resource Group
http://www.vrg.org

I can't think of any links that would do as good as a job as the book by
Brenda Davis that I recommended.

You can get a discount on it by ordering it through

http://www.bestbookbuys.com

Especially since you have health issues, I wouldn't rely on the internet
for health information.

You can also check your local library for that book, or for Becoming
Vegan by Brenda Davis RD ( both vegetarianism and veganism are covered ).

The book by Reed Mangels, "Simply Vegan" should be in many libraries and
is fairly short. It is not as complete as "The New Becoming
Vegetarian", but if you follow the advice you should be okay.

Steve

Adam wrote:
> I'd appreciate any good links you have on nutrition and being a vegan,
> if you'd be so kind as to provide them.

You can try The Vegetarian Resource Group
http://www.vrg.org

I can't think of any links that would do as good as a job as the book by
Brenda Davis that I recommended.

You can get a discount on it by ordering it through

http://www.bestbookbuys.com

Especially since you have health issues, I wouldn't rely on the internet
for health information.

You can also check your local library for that book, or for Becoming
Vegan by Brenda Davis RD ( both vegetarianism and veganism are covered ).

The book by Reed Mangels, "Simply Vegan" should be in many libraries and
is fairly short. It is not as complete as "The New Becoming
Vegetarian", but if you follow the advice you should be okay.

Steve

Adam wrote:
> It is really starting to hit me that my health
> is suffering because I do not have a healthy diet. I mostly eat pasta and
> pizza, and drink water. I've supplements to take, but tend to forget doing
> so. Objects in the distance begin to appear blurry if I haven't taken the
> supplements for a few days and I'll have mood swings. I guess I _really_am_
> harming my body and I better clue in to reality before it is too late.

You need to see a doctor.

Summerfest speaker Dr. Michael Gregor has a web site:

http://www.veganmd.com

He invited people to contact him through their site if they need
recommendations for veg friendly doctors or if they need
information/tips on seeing regular doctors.

He seemed to be very open to helping people with health issues.

In the meantime you want to cut down on the pizza, pasta, and things
made from flour. You want to follow the recommendations I relayed in my
original post.

Your meals should consist of a WHOLE grain, a legume, a cooked green
vegetable( broccoli, collard greens, kale, etc ), a red/orange
vegetable, and some fruit.

Also take 2 tablespoons of ground flax seeds a day.

"Steve" > wrote in message
...
> I can't think of any links that would do as good as a job as the book by
> Brenda Davis that I recommended.
>
I will see if my local library has it, or, if not, I will try to read a
copy somehow. I've yet to read any books on vegan nutrition. I mostly used
the advice of my doctor and what I read online. I didn't believe it was very
hard to stay alive and be healthy, but I suppose it is.


> You can also check your local library for that book, or for Becoming Vegan
> by Brenda Davis RD ( both vegetarianism and veganism are covered ).
>
> The book by Reed Mangels, "Simply Vegan" should be in many libraries and
> is fairly short. It is not as complete as "The New Becoming Vegetarian",
> but if you follow the advice you should be okay.

I will look for the those two titles. I could use a good read on being a
healthy vegan.

Thank you for the help, Adam.

"Steve" > wrote in message
...
> You need to see a doctor.
>
Yes, I see a doctor. Perhaps a full physical is needed.


> In the meantime you want to cut down on the pizza, pasta, and things made
> from flour. You want to follow the recommendations I relayed in my
> original post.
>
> Your meals should consist of a WHOLE grain, a legume, a cooked green
> vegetable( broccoli, collard greens, kale, etc ), a red/orange vegetable,
> and some fruit.
>
> Also take 2 tablespoons of ground flax seeds a day.
>

Would the following be considered, by you, a healthy vegan diet, in
terms of foods consumed?

01) Brown Basmati rice - for carbohydrates.
02) Soy veggie burgers - for protein.
03) Soy protein shake - for protein.
04) V8 vegetable juice - for vitamins, minerals, antioxidants.
05) Cold-pressed flax seed oil - for essential omega-3 fat.
06) Salad with vegetables and tomatos - for fiber.
07) Lentil soup.
08) Bean soup.
09) Some sort of high-fiber ceral with soy milk.
10) Soy lecithin - for acetycholine.
11) Vitamin B12 supplement.
12) Vitamin B6 supplement.
13) Vitamin B2 supplement.
14) B Complex supplement.
15) Kelp supplement - for iodine.
16) Vitamin E supplement.
17) Vitamin C supplement.
18) CoQ10 supplement.
19) Alpha lipoic acid supplement.
20) Ginko biloba supplement.
21) Phosphatidyl serine supplement.
22) Calcium supplement.
23) Pycogenol supplement.

I try to daily take the supplements listed, but tend to not do so for a
number of days. In regards to the actual food items, are they fine for what
I listed there purpose as? As you can read, I do not consume much vegetables
and fruits. I understand that I should, and I'll make a worthy attempty at
doing so, but it is hard to break old habits.

Please let me know, I'd appreciate any constructive comments, Adam.

Hi Adam;

Adam wrote:
> "Steve" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>You need to see a doctor.
>>
>
> Yes, I see a doctor. Perhaps a full physical is needed.

Good, diet related vision problems could be a serious issue.


> Would the following be considered, by you, a healthy vegan diet, in
> terms of foods consumed?


I'm going to avoid commenting upon your proposed regime.

I think it is important for you ( and every other veg*n ) to take
responsibility for your own health.

I am glad you are going to try to read the book I recommended.

Brenda Davis RD will do a much better job with her book "The New
Becoming Vegetarian"( covers veganism thoroughly ) then I or a web site
could possibly ever do.

If you need to buy it, this book shopping site might be the cheapest route:

http://www.bestwebbuys.com/books/com...sbn/1570671443

Veg*n nutrtion is not hard nor is it complicated. Most people simply
never read anything on the subject or follow the recommnedations.

I've been reading up on veg*n nutrtion for the 26 years.

"The New Becoming Vegetarian" is the best, most complete nutrition book
I have seen so far and IMHO the only nutrition book you will need to
read until Brenda Davis updates her work again( she keeps current ).

See your doctor, read the entire book, follow Davis' recommendations for
a few weeks and let us know how you are doing.

I believe that one of the most effective things we can do to end animal
cruelty is to take care of ourselves.

When omnivores see people who are vegans and in glowingly good health it
encourages to take the diet seriously.

Steve




--
Steve
http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdom/

"The great American thought trap: It is not real unless it can be seen
on television or bought in a shopping mall"

"Steve" > wrote in message
...
> I'm going to avoid commenting upon your proposed regime.
>
> I think it is important for you ( and every other veg*n ) to take
> responsibility for your own health.
>
That's understandable.


> Veg*n nutrtion is not hard nor is it complicated. Most people simply
> never read anything on the subject or follow the recommnedations.
>
> I've been reading up on veg*n nutrtion for the 26 years.
>
Have you been a vegan for 26 years?


> "The New Becoming Vegetarian" is the best, most complete nutrition book I
> have seen so far and IMHO the only nutrition book you will need to read
> until Brenda Davis updates her work again( she keeps current ).
>
> See your doctor, read the entire book, follow Davis' recommendations for a
> few weeks and let us know how you are doing.
>
Yes, I will write a fully summary of what has transpired in that time.
Most vegans are probably like me in not taking everything into consideration
and doing everything that they know is correct. Sometimes it is more
convenient to do the wrong thing because we think it will only be once. But
we do the same thing over and over and soon the wrong thing because the rule
and not the exception. At least for me.


> I believe that one of the most effective things we can do to end animal
> cruelty is to take care of ourselves.

Education and compassion would do wonders for some people. Compassion
would end many problems, but people aren't brought up think that way. At
least not in our western society. If there is an insect in my home that I
don't wish to be there, rather than kill it, as I used to do, I will spend
as much time as needed to safely transport it to the outside. Somewhere
where it will at least have a chance to live. Even if, to me, the insect is
not conscious, that doesn't make it any less cruel to end its life if I can
avoid it. All things in good measure.

Take care, Adam.

Adam wrote:
>>I've been reading up on veg*n nutrtion for the 26 years.
>>
>
> Have you been a vegan for 26 years?

No, only about 15 years.





>>I believe that one of the most effective things we can do to end animal
>>cruelty is to take care of ourselves.
>
>
> Education and compassion would do wonders for some people. Compassion
> would end many problems, but people aren't brought up think that way.

I believe both are needed.

People aren't going to be convinced to give veg*sm a try if the veg*ns
they see look like they are in poor health or out of shape. Nobody
wants that for themselves.


Steve
http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdom/

"The great American thought trap: It is not real unless it can be seen
on television or bought in a shopping mall"

Steve > wrote in message
> People aren't going to be convinced to give veg*sm a try if the veg*ns
> they see look like they are in poor health or out of shape. Nobody
> wants that for themselves.
>
>
Eat like Budha, look like Budha ( or Dean Ornish).

Ray Audette
Author "NeanderThin"
www.NeanderThin.com

Steve > wrote in message
> People aren't going to be convinced to give veg*sm a try if the veg*ns
> they see look like they are in poor health or out of shape. Nobody
> wants that for themselves.
>
>
Eat like Budha, look like Budha ( or Dean Ornish).

Ray Audette
Author "NeanderThin"
www.NeanderThin.com

> Eat like Budha, look like Budha ( or Dean Ornish).

Refraining from overeating is part of the buddhist philosophy. Some
depictions of the Budha show him as a fat man because in those cultures
overweight was seen as a symbol of wisdom and power. Other depictions show
the Budha as slim and handsome. In whichever case, it is not the real man
being reproduced by the depiction.

You intimate that Ornish is overweight, but where is the evidence? He
doesn't look overweight in any of the pictures I've seen.

John

> Eat like Budha, look like Budha ( or Dean Ornish).

Refraining from overeating is part of the buddhist philosophy. Some
depictions of the Budha show him as a fat man because in those cultures
overweight was seen as a symbol of wisdom and power. Other depictions show
the Budha as slim and handsome. In whichever case, it is not the real man
being reproduced by the depiction.

You intimate that Ornish is overweight, but where is the evidence? He
doesn't look overweight in any of the pictures I've seen.

John

"John Coleman" > wrote in message >...
> > Eat like Budha, look like Budha ( or Dean Ornish).
>
> Refraining from overeating is part of the buddhist philosophy. Some
> depictions of the Budha show him as a fat man because in those cultures
> overweight was seen as a symbol of wisdom and power. Other depictions show
> the Budha as slim and handsome. In whichever case, it is not the real man
> being reproduced by the depiction.
>
> You intimate that Ornish is overweight, but where is the evidence? He
> doesn't look overweight in any of the pictures I've seen.
>
Dean appeared on CBS News "48 Hours" Program with me ( my book went to
#25 on Amazon.com thanks to the comparison. They showed him
stroling in front of his yacht and he was huge. He has since that
time had plastic surgery on his face but has avoided full body shots
so I confess I don't know his current height and weight.

I will chalange him to a swimsuit competition anytime. If it's good
enough for picking Miss America - it's good enough for picking a diet
guru

Why are people who eat macro-biotic diets surprised when they begin to
look like Confutious - on whose principles of moderation it's based
on?

Ray Audette
Author "NeanderThin"
www.NeanderThin.com

"John Coleman" > wrote in message >...
> > Eat like Budha, look like Budha ( or Dean Ornish).
>
> Refraining from overeating is part of the buddhist philosophy. Some
> depictions of the Budha show him as a fat man because in those cultures
> overweight was seen as a symbol of wisdom and power. Other depictions show
> the Budha as slim and handsome. In whichever case, it is not the real man
> being reproduced by the depiction.
>
> You intimate that Ornish is overweight, but where is the evidence? He
> doesn't look overweight in any of the pictures I've seen.
>
Dean appeared on CBS News "48 Hours" Program with me ( my book went to
#25 on Amazon.com thanks to the comparison. They showed him
stroling in front of his yacht and he was huge. He has since that
time had plastic surgery on his face but has avoided full body shots
so I confess I don't know his current height and weight.

I will chalange him to a swimsuit competition anytime. If it's good
enough for picking Miss America - it's good enough for picking a diet
guru

Why are people who eat macro-biotic diets surprised when they begin to
look like Confutious - on whose principles of moderation it's based
on?

Ray Audette
Author "NeanderThin"
www.NeanderThin.com

Steve > wrote in message >...
> Dr. Michael Klapper has been running a vegan health research project.
> He was very serious when he told us that he is seeing a lot of vegans
> with cardiovascular disease ( b-12 deficiency),
> neurological issues (b-12), osteoporosis, orthopedic issues, type 2
> diabetes ( too many flour products and sweets ) and even clinical
> obesity( flour products, sweets, junkfood ).
> The other vegan health experts there confirmed Dr. Klapper's findings
> with their own clinical experiences.
>
see also:
Scrimshaw, Nevin S.,
"Iron Deficiency."
Scientific American (Oct. 1991) 46-52.

This article explains how vegetarian diets lead to anemia, lethargy
and reduced IQ in children. It further states that this is the most
common cause of mental retardation in the world today.

Ray Audette
Author "NeanderThin"
www.NeanderThin.com [ see bibliography at web site for more peer
reviewed articles about vegetarianism]

Steve > wrote in message >...
> Dr. Michael Klapper has been running a vegan health research project.
> He was very serious when he told us that he is seeing a lot of vegans
> with cardiovascular disease ( b-12 deficiency),
> neurological issues (b-12), osteoporosis, orthopedic issues, type 2
> diabetes ( too many flour products and sweets ) and even clinical
> obesity( flour products, sweets, junkfood ).
> The other vegan health experts there confirmed Dr. Klapper's findings
> with their own clinical experiences.
>
see also:
Scrimshaw, Nevin S.,
"Iron Deficiency."
Scientific American (Oct. 1991) 46-52.

This article explains how vegetarian diets lead to anemia, lethargy
and reduced IQ in children. It further states that this is the most
common cause of mental retardation in the world today.

Ray Audette
Author "NeanderThin"
www.NeanderThin.com [ see bibliography at web site for more peer
reviewed articles about vegetarianism]

So many vegetarians think that just because they dont eat meat that they are
automatically healthy and that certainly isnt the case.
These vegetarians eat so much junk food and white rice and white refinded
bread and refined pasta and the cakes etc. They think because they dont eat
meat that they are fine.
The whole bad name that pasta and carbs has gotten is because many people do
not understand the difference between whole grain carbs and the refined white
junk.
When I first became a vegetarian I lost about 35 lbs eating nothing but
carbs.
All whole grain pasta, bread and brown rice and lentils and beans and a lot
of vegetables and fruit.

Being a healthy vegetarian is paying attention to the food you eat and
looking at the ingredients. Go to a real bakery and buy a loaf of whole grain
real bread and compare it to some bread in the grocery store. Not only does it
wiegh a lot more, look at the ingredients. The store bread has more ingrediants
then hair shampoo.

The first book I read about becomming a vegan stressed the importance of
eating whole foods and the least processed and foods with the least
ingrediants.

That book was "12 days to dynamic health" by Dr. John McDougal.
He pointed out many myths and facts and good points about being a healty
vegan.

His web page has very good info on being a healthy vegan.

http://www.drmcdougall.com/

Craig

So many vegetarians think that just because they dont eat meat that they are
automatically healthy and that certainly isnt the case.
These vegetarians eat so much junk food and white rice and white refinded
bread and refined pasta and the cakes etc. They think because they dont eat
meat that they are fine.
The whole bad name that pasta and carbs has gotten is because many people do
not understand the difference between whole grain carbs and the refined white
junk.
When I first became a vegetarian I lost about 35 lbs eating nothing but
carbs.
All whole grain pasta, bread and brown rice and lentils and beans and a lot
of vegetables and fruit.

Being a healthy vegetarian is paying attention to the food you eat and
looking at the ingredients. Go to a real bakery and buy a loaf of whole grain
real bread and compare it to some bread in the grocery store. Not only does it
wiegh a lot more, look at the ingredients. The store bread has more ingrediants
then hair shampoo.

The first book I read about becomming a vegan stressed the importance of
eating whole foods and the least processed and foods with the least
ingrediants.

That book was "12 days to dynamic health" by Dr. John McDougal.
He pointed out many myths and facts and good points about being a healty
vegan.

His web page has very good info on being a healthy vegan.

http://www.drmcdougall.com/

Craig

DXer wrote:
> The whole bad name that pasta and carbs has gotten is because many people do
> not understand the difference between whole grain carbs and the refined white
> junk.

True.

Interestingly, I heard a talk given by George Eisman. He mentioned the
sugar/appetite control of whole grain fibers some of their effectiveness
when ground into flour.

I can believe it. I feel fuller on the same calories in whole grains as
I do on whole grain breads/pastas.

DXer wrote:
> The whole bad name that pasta and carbs has gotten is because many people do
> not understand the difference between whole grain carbs and the refined white
> junk.

True.

Interestingly, I heard a talk given by George Eisman. He mentioned the
sugar/appetite control of whole grain fibers some of their effectiveness
when ground into flour.

I can believe it. I feel fuller on the same calories in whole grains as
I do on whole grain breads/pastas.