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  #41 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick etter
 
Posts: n/a
Default Wow, haven't been around here for a while


"Mike Charlton" > wrote in message
news
> On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 21:16:15 +0000, rick etter wrote:
>
> > "Mike Charlton" > wrote in message
> > news
>
> >> It may be the case that the majority of vegans aren't really eating a
> >> vegan diet. I think that's a bit sad. If they could be properly

educated
> >> they could potentially start adressing some of the other important
> >> problems. As it stands many vegans prefer to stay blissfully ignorant.
> >> It is unfortunate, but luckily not everyone feels this way.

> > ========================
> > Part of the point is even *if* they are eating a vegan diet, that in

itself
> > means almost nothing compared to the rest of their lifestyle. I say

they
> > wish to remain terminally ignorant. Even after being told about the

rest of
> > their lives, it's only their diet that really matters.

>
> For some that is the case. Luckily it is not true for everyone. I'm not
> sure why we're even talking about this. You really *do* seem to enjoy
> changing the subject so that you can slag people off :-). Well, I'll try
> not to interfere with your fun. Slag away :-) I'm not sure what you hope
> to gain by it, but if it eases your pain you might as well continue.

===========================
I'm in no pain. You seem to be having problems though.


>
> >> I'm not sure what "real" means, but I take heart in your use of the

word
> >> "yet".

> > ====================
> > One that actually believes in veganism, and *lives* their lives that

way.
> > If you're here on usenet, you not a vegan, period. Veganism is not a

diet.
>
> Well, that is a valuable definition. And for the purposes of this
> discussion, I will freely admit that I am not a vegan. How does this
> change anything? My understanding is that you are upset about some people
> being hypocritical. I think it would be very difficult to find anyone
> who was not hypocritical in *some* respect.
>
> For instance, do you maintain that it is a *good* thing to kill animals
> due to a communications medium like the internet? Is it *good* to kill
> animals with power generation? Or is it bad? You make a big deal about
> it. If it is not bad, why worry about it? Sure, it will worry some
> people and not others. Does it worry you? If it does, why are you
> killing animals in this way? If it does not worry you, why do you mention
> it?

==============================
Because, fool, it is the claim of vegans that by not eating meat they cause
no/less/fewer animal death and suffering. Such is the stuff of their lys
and delusions. that you fail to not only understand that, but also fail to
refute it says aloy about your desperation now in changing the subject...


>
> Hypocracy abounds. It is part of the human condition. However, you seem
> to get a kick out of telling people how awful they are. By all means,
> please continue if you enjoy it. When you are done, why not help me
> figure out exactly how many animals are killed in farming operations. You
> say that you have proven it is a lot. I do not see that information.

==========================
Of course you don't. Like all loons here you alwasy snip it out when you
run across it. makes it easier for your brainwashing that way I suppose.


I
> see than many animals *live* in fields and that synthesized pesticides and
> fertilizer in runoff kill animals. I do not see any information wrt
> organic farming.

=-======================
Why would it be different, fool? The operations are the same, *except*
that with some organic pesticides you have to run your machine through the
fields several times per growing season. Guess your just too stupid to
understand farming, eh killer?


>
> > As I've said repeatedly, I think that the essence of your message
> >> is very valuable. I'm willing to bet that many vegans don't consider
> >> all the ways they interact or harm other animals or the environment.

> > ====================
> > Here on usenet, that number is almost zero. Try going back in the

archives
> > and reading some of the stupidity that has always been part of their

simple
> > rule for their simple minds.

>
> Is ignorance a reason to belittle someone?

======================
Yes, when they have the info readily available but prefer to remain
ignorant. That becomes stupidity. Vegans have that in spades...


Even if someone refuses to be
> enlightened, do they deserve to be called "simple"?

====================
Yes. Especially when they live only a simple rule for their simply mind,
'eat no meat'.


I have shown that you
> are completely ineffective in your ability to communicate a valuable
> lesson.

=================
No, you haven't. You've displayed your own terminal ignorance.



You, yourself, have complained that people refuse to listen to
> you.

====================
Nope.

You blame others, but the fault is in you. Does the fact that you
> are unwilling to change mean that *you* are simple? I think not. Wisdom
> comes to all people in their own time.

==================
Except, apparently, vegans.

>
>
> > You want aggressive? Where have I ever wished someone to die? Where

have I
> > ever gleefully posted items about someone dying? Those are standard
> > stock-n-trade posts for the *compassionate* vegans. I'm can be

abrasive,
> > yes I admit that. I can be resonable when someone starts out being
> > reasonable. Reread my first replies to you. They were quite calm and
> > reasonable. You complained that when i discussed what I have seen from
> > vegans here on usenet, because apparently you saw too much of yourself

in
> > those desxcriptions I guess. I never said anything about you at all in
> > those posts that I remember.

>
> I agree that many people are more agressive than you. That does not mean
> that you are not agressive. I have complained that you assume things of
> me that aren't true. Even when I have alerted you to this fact, you do
> not ask me what the truth is.

==========================
You talk like a duck, quack like a duck, and walk like a duck, yyou're
treated as a duckdespite your protest to the contrary. quack quack, killer.


You merely complain about other people.
> I am not interested in other people. I am not interested in your views on
> veganism. I am interested in reducing the number of collateral deaths due
> to farming. So far, despite the amount of energy you have expended on
> this topic, you have shown very little interest in discussing it. Do you
> have an opinion on the topic or is this just a platform for you to
> complain? If it is the latter, continue for as long as you want. But
> please send me email when you are ready to return to the subject. I will
> still be interested.

==================
No, you won't. You've already proven that.
I suggest you go back and reread the start of this discussion. My first
posts to you were very reasonable, and very open. You're the one that
responded with absolute demands, and was non-responsive to most of the
posts. Then reply to a reply I made to somebody else like it was to you.
Again, you set up strawmen and demand 'real numbers'. Like sombody is
going to grow 3 bushels of tofu alone, for one meal and survive on that for
their life. You're stupidity deserved what it got, fool. You wanted to
compare one meal of tofu, with one meal of beef. The problem is, where do
you get only one meal of beef, and not the other 1000 or so meals that come
fropm the death of one cow? You want real info, go grow the acres of soy
it would take to replace 100s of 1000s of calories from one cow. Count each
animal yourself if the data is *that* important to you. See the point yet?
Vegans make claims they cannot backup, and like you, demand that others
disprove a claim they fail to defend.

>
> > I far more right than the vegans claim that I am posting in reply to.

The
> > original claims are by vegans. That their diet causes no death and
> > suffering, or that their diet causes less death and suffering. They

make
> > these claims categorically about "any" vegan diet compared to "any" meat
> > included diet. Again, I have no need to provide the 'actual' numbers,

but I
> > have provided proof that the death and suffering of animals occurs in

large
> > numbers for a vegans diet.

>
> I would be surprised if you did not think you were more right than the
> people you complain about. But that really does not interest me. I am
> interested in how many deaths occur due to farming and how to prevent

them.
================
No you're not. You're here instead. Why? because it's easier for you to
blame others for your failure to demonstrate that animals really maen
anything to you, just like every other vegan here on usenet.

> As you say, you have no need to provide "actual" numbers, but if you don't
> want to say anything other than what prompted me to ask the questions
> initially, why are you here? You have typed and typed and typed, but I
> am still no closer to understanding the answers to my questions.

========================
The original claim is from vegan loons that 'no' animals die for their diet.
Then they switch to fewer die. Not a one has ever proven it to be so. Not
a one has ever tried. The point is that if they really cared, "they" would
be the ones providing the real numbers, and the way to achive them. The
cannot and will not. It would explode their myth first of all, and would
cut seriously into their conveninece. If you were really serious in your
search, you'd be out doing the research yourself. Instead, here you are
demanding it of others.n You're no closer because you don't want to be.



>
> Please do not misunderstand me. I am grateful for the information that I
> *have* gotten from you. It has been mostly very unpleasant, but I have
> learned a lot. Several of the links you sent were new to me and I have
> enjoyed reading them. I can tell that you are a bright person and it
> seems such a waste that you can not seem to find a way to carry on a
> conversation without insulting someone. I really believe that many people
> could learn a lot from you if you spoke in a way that would cause them to
> listen.

=====================
Yes, I can be reasonable and personable when people are listening. You were
not, and are not.


>
> I suppose it is your revenge on those that seem to have made your life
> difficult. That their ignorance bothers you so much is hopeful to me.
> You are obviously highly motivated to educate. But you seem to be too
> obsessed with your hate and revenge to be positive. That saddens me
> deeply.

======================
No, it doesn't. the hatered is not mine, and I have shown you none. I
cannot say the same of many vegans here on usenet.

>
> But, I think this is really too personal to discuss in an open forum. If
> you wish to discuss it further, please feel free to email me. I am
> entirely at your disposal.

==================
Afraid of your ignorance being highlighted even more? You can't get much
lower....




>
> Mike
>





Animals die.
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm

http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.htm



http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html



http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html



  #42 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick etter
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Mike Charlton" > wrote in message
news
> On Wed, 04 Aug 2004 21:16:15 +0000, rick etter wrote:
>
> > "Mike Charlton" > wrote in message
> > news

>
> >> It may be the case that the majority of vegans aren't really eating a
> >> vegan diet. I think that's a bit sad. If they could be properly

educated
> >> they could potentially start adressing some of the other important
> >> problems. As it stands many vegans prefer to stay blissfully ignorant.
> >> It is unfortunate, but luckily not everyone feels this way.

> > ========================
> > Part of the point is even *if* they are eating a vegan diet, that in

itself
> > means almost nothing compared to the rest of their lifestyle. I say

they
> > wish to remain terminally ignorant. Even after being told about the

rest of
> > their lives, it's only their diet that really matters.

>
> For some that is the case. Luckily it is not true for everyone. I'm not
> sure why we're even talking about this. You really *do* seem to enjoy
> changing the subject so that you can slag people off :-). Well, I'll try
> not to interfere with your fun. Slag away :-) I'm not sure what you hope
> to gain by it, but if it eases your pain you might as well continue.

===========================
I'm in no pain. You seem to be having problems though.


>
> >> I'm not sure what "real" means, but I take heart in your use of the

word
> >> "yet".

> > ====================
> > One that actually believes in veganism, and *lives* their lives that

way.
> > If you're here on usenet, you not a vegan, period. Veganism is not a

diet.
>
> Well, that is a valuable definition. And for the purposes of this
> discussion, I will freely admit that I am not a vegan. How does this
> change anything? My understanding is that you are upset about some people
> being hypocritical. I think it would be very difficult to find anyone
> who was not hypocritical in *some* respect.
>
> For instance, do you maintain that it is a *good* thing to kill animals
> due to a communications medium like the internet? Is it *good* to kill
> animals with power generation? Or is it bad? You make a big deal about
> it. If it is not bad, why worry about it? Sure, it will worry some
> people and not others. Does it worry you? If it does, why are you
> killing animals in this way? If it does not worry you, why do you mention
> it?

==============================
Because, fool, it is the claim of vegans that by not eating meat they cause
no/less/fewer animal death and suffering. Such is the stuff of their lys
and delusions. that you fail to not only understand that, but also fail to
refute it says aloy about your desperation now in changing the subject...


>
> Hypocracy abounds. It is part of the human condition. However, you seem
> to get a kick out of telling people how awful they are. By all means,
> please continue if you enjoy it. When you are done, why not help me
> figure out exactly how many animals are killed in farming operations. You
> say that you have proven it is a lot. I do not see that information.

==========================
Of course you don't. Like all loons here you alwasy snip it out when you
run across it. makes it easier for your brainwashing that way I suppose.


I
> see than many animals *live* in fields and that synthesized pesticides and
> fertilizer in runoff kill animals. I do not see any information wrt
> organic farming.

=-======================
Why would it be different, fool? The operations are the same, *except*
that with some organic pesticides you have to run your machine through the
fields several times per growing season. Guess your just too stupid to
understand farming, eh killer?


>
> > As I've said repeatedly, I think that the essence of your message
> >> is very valuable. I'm willing to bet that many vegans don't consider
> >> all the ways they interact or harm other animals or the environment.

> > ====================
> > Here on usenet, that number is almost zero. Try going back in the

archives
> > and reading some of the stupidity that has always been part of their

simple
> > rule for their simple minds.

>
> Is ignorance a reason to belittle someone?

======================
Yes, when they have the info readily available but prefer to remain
ignorant. That becomes stupidity. Vegans have that in spades...


Even if someone refuses to be
> enlightened, do they deserve to be called "simple"?

====================
Yes. Especially when they live only a simple rule for their simply mind,
'eat no meat'.


I have shown that you
> are completely ineffective in your ability to communicate a valuable
> lesson.

=================
No, you haven't. You've displayed your own terminal ignorance.



You, yourself, have complained that people refuse to listen to
> you.

====================
Nope.

You blame others, but the fault is in you. Does the fact that you
> are unwilling to change mean that *you* are simple? I think not. Wisdom
> comes to all people in their own time.

==================
Except, apparently, vegans.

>
>
> > You want aggressive? Where have I ever wished someone to die? Where

have I
> > ever gleefully posted items about someone dying? Those are standard
> > stock-n-trade posts for the *compassionate* vegans. I'm can be

abrasive,
> > yes I admit that. I can be resonable when someone starts out being
> > reasonable. Reread my first replies to you. They were quite calm and
> > reasonable. You complained that when i discussed what I have seen from
> > vegans here on usenet, because apparently you saw too much of yourself

in
> > those desxcriptions I guess. I never said anything about you at all in
> > those posts that I remember.

>
> I agree that many people are more agressive than you. That does not mean
> that you are not agressive. I have complained that you assume things of
> me that aren't true. Even when I have alerted you to this fact, you do
> not ask me what the truth is.

==========================
You talk like a duck, quack like a duck, and walk like a duck, yyou're
treated as a duckdespite your protest to the contrary. quack quack, killer.


You merely complain about other people.
> I am not interested in other people. I am not interested in your views on
> veganism. I am interested in reducing the number of collateral deaths due
> to farming. So far, despite the amount of energy you have expended on
> this topic, you have shown very little interest in discussing it. Do you
> have an opinion on the topic or is this just a platform for you to
> complain? If it is the latter, continue for as long as you want. But
> please send me email when you are ready to return to the subject. I will
> still be interested.

==================
No, you won't. You've already proven that.
I suggest you go back and reread the start of this discussion. My first
posts to you were very reasonable, and very open. You're the one that
responded with absolute demands, and was non-responsive to most of the
posts. Then reply to a reply I made to somebody else like it was to you.
Again, you set up strawmen and demand 'real numbers'. Like sombody is
going to grow 3 bushels of tofu alone, for one meal and survive on that for
their life. You're stupidity deserved what it got, fool. You wanted to
compare one meal of tofu, with one meal of beef. The problem is, where do
you get only one meal of beef, and not the other 1000 or so meals that come
fropm the death of one cow? You want real info, go grow the acres of soy
it would take to replace 100s of 1000s of calories from one cow. Count each
animal yourself if the data is *that* important to you. See the point yet?
Vegans make claims they cannot backup, and like you, demand that others
disprove a claim they fail to defend.

>
> > I far more right than the vegans claim that I am posting in reply to.

The
> > original claims are by vegans. That their diet causes no death and
> > suffering, or that their diet causes less death and suffering. They

make
> > these claims categorically about "any" vegan diet compared to "any" meat
> > included diet. Again, I have no need to provide the 'actual' numbers,

but I
> > have provided proof that the death and suffering of animals occurs in

large
> > numbers for a vegans diet.

>
> I would be surprised if you did not think you were more right than the
> people you complain about. But that really does not interest me. I am
> interested in how many deaths occur due to farming and how to prevent

them.
================
No you're not. You're here instead. Why? because it's easier for you to
blame others for your failure to demonstrate that animals really maen
anything to you, just like every other vegan here on usenet.

> As you say, you have no need to provide "actual" numbers, but if you don't
> want to say anything other than what prompted me to ask the questions
> initially, why are you here? You have typed and typed and typed, but I
> am still no closer to understanding the answers to my questions.

========================
The original claim is from vegan loons that 'no' animals die for their diet.
Then they switch to fewer die. Not a one has ever proven it to be so. Not
a one has ever tried. The point is that if they really cared, "they" would
be the ones providing the real numbers, and the way to achive them. The
cannot and will not. It would explode their myth first of all, and would
cut seriously into their conveninece. If you were really serious in your
search, you'd be out doing the research yourself. Instead, here you are
demanding it of others.n You're no closer because you don't want to be.



>
> Please do not misunderstand me. I am grateful for the information that I
> *have* gotten from you. It has been mostly very unpleasant, but I have
> learned a lot. Several of the links you sent were new to me and I have
> enjoyed reading them. I can tell that you are a bright person and it
> seems such a waste that you can not seem to find a way to carry on a
> conversation without insulting someone. I really believe that many people
> could learn a lot from you if you spoke in a way that would cause them to
> listen.

=====================
Yes, I can be reasonable and personable when people are listening. You were
not, and are not.


>
> I suppose it is your revenge on those that seem to have made your life
> difficult. That their ignorance bothers you so much is hopeful to me.
> You are obviously highly motivated to educate. But you seem to be too
> obsessed with your hate and revenge to be positive. That saddens me
> deeply.

======================
No, it doesn't. the hatered is not mine, and I have shown you none. I
cannot say the same of many vegans here on usenet.

>
> But, I think this is really too personal to discuss in an open forum. If
> you wish to discuss it further, please feel free to email me. I am
> entirely at your disposal.

==================
Afraid of your ignorance being highlighted even more? You can't get much
lower....




>
> Mike
>





Animals die.
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.ncwildlife.org/pg07_Wildl...on/pg7f2b6.htm
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.com.../leastharm.htm
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/wildlife/small_grains_wildlife.html
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/sugarcane.htm

http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.htm



http://www.greenenergyohio.org/defau...iew&pageID=135
http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.epa.gov/airmarkets/capandtrade/power.pdf
http://www.nirs.org/licensedtokill/L...xecsummary.pdf
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://migratorybirds.fws.gov/issues/towers/towers.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/policy/towerkill.htm
http://www.mhhe.com/biosci/pae/es_ma...ticle_22.mhtml
http://www.netwalk.com/~vireo/devastatingtoll.html
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercu...7697992.htm?1c
http://www.energy.ca.gov/pier/energy...00-01-019.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm
http://www.wvrivers.org/anker-upshur.htm
http://www.fisheries.org/html/Public...nts/ps_2.shtml
http://www.powerscorecard.org/issue_...cfm?issue_id=5
http://www.safesecurevital.org/artic...012012004.html



http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/
http://www.gbr.wwf.org.au/content/problem/cotton.htm

To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html



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