Vegan (alt.food.vegan) This newsgroup exists to share ideas and issues of concern among vegans. We are always happy to share our recipes- perhaps especially with omnivores who are simply curious- or even better, accomodating a vegan guest for a meal!

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Old 06-06-2004, 05:51 PM
DappleAndWasser
 
Posts: n/a
Default No! I won't!

In as much as we evolved from omnivores, and in as much as all souls
are eternal (so killing animals is not an ethical problem), I see no
reason to be vegan, other than to reduce one's sexual lust. And,
personally, I have no desire to reduce my sexual lust.

By being a vegan, you miss out on the best proteins (whey) and the
best fats (fish oil).

No. I won't help you be a vegan, or a healthier vegan.

  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 06-06-2004, 06:00 PM
David Wright
 
Posts: n/a
Default No! I won't!

In article ,
DappleAndWasser wrote:
In as much as we evolved from omnivores, and in as much as all souls
are eternal (so killing animals is not an ethical problem), I see no
reason to be vegan, other than to reduce one's sexual lust. And,
personally, I have no desire to reduce my sexual lust.

By being a vegan, you miss out on the best proteins (whey) and the
best fats (fish oil).


"No whey!" (vegan motto)

No. I won't help you be a vegan, or a healthier vegan.


Aw, c'mon. Help just a little bit. You can do it.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)




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Old 06-06-2004, 09:23 PM
Jonathan Ball
 
Posts: n/a
Default No! I won't!

dec wrote:

"DappleAndWasser" wrote in message om...

In as much as we evolved from omnivores, and in as much as all souls
are eternal (so killing animals is not an ethical problem), I see no
reason to be vegan, other than to reduce one's sexual lust.



Environmental impact--each successive trophic level in the
food chain is approximately an order of magnitude more
destructive than the one below it, but some are several
orders of magnitude more destructive.


What a big steaming load of crap! You've written
dogma, not science.

Yesterday on a golf course, I saw the head of a
squirrel, the only remains of a meal for a hawk or owl.
I invite you to "prove" how hawks are *any* more
environmentally destructive than squirrels, LET ALONE
"orders of magnitude" (pshaw - you don't even know what
that means) more destructive.

In fact, with the exception of man, the higher up the
trophic levels you go, the LESS destructive species
appear to be.



By being a vegan, you miss out on the best proteins (whey) and the
best fats (fish oil).



One can put together a completely plant-based meal
with an EAA profile similar to whey.


Feel free.


One can also buy algae-based DHA sources. Ari Simopoulos
reports that wild purslane, a terrestial plant, is a source
of EPA. Also, we will have soon have precursors to DHA
and EPA that convert more easily than ALA in our
vegetable oils in the supermarket.




  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 07-06-2004, 02:57 PM
Steve
 
Posts: n/a
Default No! I won't!

David Wright wrote:
By being a vegan, you miss out on the best proteins


Protien complementation actually results in higher quality protien


best fats (fish oil).


Fish get their omega 3's from algae oil, which you can now buy in
vegetarian capusles, its called "Omega 3 Zen DHA".

Doh!


Steve
http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdom/

"The great American thought trap: It is not real unless it can be seen
on television or bought in a shopping mall"


  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 07-06-2004, 08:43 PM
DappleAndWasser
 
Posts: n/a
Default Yes, I might

Steve wrote in message ...


Fish get their omega 3's from algae oil, which you can now buy in
vegetarian capusles, its called "Omega 3 Zen DHA".


Thanks for the info. I will look into it.

Roger
  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 08-06-2004, 10:58 AM
Vashti
 
Posts: n/a
Default Yes, I might

It wasn't a dark and stormy night when DappleAndWasser wrote:

Steve wrote in message
...


Fish get their omega 3's from algae oil, which you can now buy in
vegetarian capusles, its called "Omega 3 Zen DHA".


Thanks for the info. I will look into it.


I found it cheaper to use flax(linseed) oil.


Vashti
  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 08-06-2004, 03:49 PM
DappleAndWasser
 
Posts: n/a
Default Yes, I might

Vashti wrote in message ...
It wasn't a dark and stormy night when DappleAndWasser wrote:

Steve wrote in message
...


Fish get their omega 3's from algae oil, which you can now buy in
vegetarian capusles, its called "Omega 3 Zen DHA".


Thanks for the info. I will look into it.


I found it cheaper to use flax(linseed) oil.


Vashti



The conversion of flaxseed oil to DHA and EPA is terrible. You won't
get much DHA and EPA out that strategy.

http://www.oilofpisces.com/generalhealtheffects.html


"Editor's Note: According to this new data a tablespoon of flax oil
would only result in the synthesis of about 30 mg of EPA far less
than the recommended daily intake of 220 mg."
  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 11-06-2004, 05:02 AM
katie
 
Posts: n/a
Default Yes, I might


"Vashti" wrote in message
...
It wasn't a dark and stormy night when DappleAndWasser wrote:

Steve wrote in message
...


Fish get their omega 3's from algae oil, which you can now buy in
vegetarian capusles, its called "Omega 3 Zen DHA".


Thanks for the info. I will look into it.


I found it cheaper to use flax(linseed) oil.

i find flax oil to be a little bit nasty tasting. i use this 'ultimate oil
blend' stuff called 'udo's oil.' it's got flax oil in it, but also
sunflower and other stuff, apparently to give the proper omega ratio. i
read somewhere that the ratio of omegas 3 to 6 is more important than just
dosing with omega 3s. sounds like a good idea. anyhow, i find it tastes
much more agreeable, although i always use it in stuff (like smoothies and
salad dressing). my dad takes it straight on a spoon each morning. that
man has a gullet of steel. ick.

Vashti



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Old 11-06-2004, 02:15 PM
Vashti
 
Posts: n/a
Default Yes, I might

It wasn't a dark and stormy night when katie wrote:

i find flax oil to be a little bit nasty tasting. i use this
'ultimate oil blend' stuff called 'udo's oil.' it's got flax oil in
it, but also sunflower and other stuff, apparently to give the proper
omega ratio. i read somewhere that the ratio of omegas 3 to 6 is more
important than just dosing with omega 3s. sounds like a good idea.
anyhow, i find it tastes much more agreeable, although i always use it
in stuff (like smoothies and salad dressing). my dad takes it
straight on a spoon each morning. that man has a gullet of steel.
ick.


I use it in salad dressing: with garlic, onion, herbs and some orange
juice to balance the nasty flavour of the oil it's great. I like it with
a salad of various leafy greens(especially the bitter ones).

I've tried to find other oils and even though my ex runs a health food
store he says he can't order anything else, not even vegetarian Omega 3
supplements but my guess is he's hardly trying though availability may
be different here in the Netherlands.

Of all things today I found I've a folic acid deficiency on top of the
inability to absorb B12 despite eating all all the foods that should
provide it so I think I need to add more stuff containing vitamin C.


Vashti


  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 13-06-2004, 08:17 PM
Ron
 
Posts: n/a
Default No! I won't!

Steve wrote in message ...
David Wright wrote:
By being a vegan, you miss out on the best proteins


Protien complementation actually results in higher quality protien


best fats (fish oil).


Fish get their omega 3's from algae oil, which you can now buy in
vegetarian capusles, its called "Omega 3 Zen DHA".

Doh!






Doesn't cooking the fish convert the omega oils to trans fats?









Steve
http://www.geocities.com/beforewisdom/

"The great American thought trap: It is not real unless it can be seen
on television or bought in a shopping mall"

  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 13-06-2004, 09:01 PM
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default No! I won't!

Ron wrote:
..
Doesn't cooking the fish convert the omega oils to trans fats?


No. Stupid.

  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 14-06-2004, 01:00 AM
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default No! I won't!

dec wrote:
Doesn't cooking the fish convert the omega oils to trans fats?


No. Stupid.


Yes.


No.

Smart.


STOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPID.

PUFAs are prone to such conversion on exposure
to heat, light, pressure, etc... with the omega3 series being
more sensitive than the omega6s and the longer chain FAs
(EPA, DHA) more sensitive than the shorter chain FAs (ALA).


Ipse dixit. Your sources, as I will kindly show you, do not support this statement.

But, the amount of destruction depends on the cooking method
and duration. Frying appears to be the most destructive cooking
method.


You're misstating the claims of the studies you erroneously cited. Frying isn't
"destructive," it is counterproductive: it contributes *other* lipids to those
found in the fish. It's especially self-defeating if one fries one's salmon in
shortening or another transfat as Dr Kris-Etherton notes in another study of
fish oils and cardiac health: "Commercially prepared fried fish (eg, from
restaurants and fast food establishments, as well as many frozen,
convenience-type fried fish products) should be avoided because they are low in
omega-3 and high in trans-fatty acids."
http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/cont...ll/106/21/2747

Dr Kris-Etherton, et al, concluded:
Collectively, these data are supportive of the recommendation made by
the AHA Dietary Guidelines to include at least two servings of fish per
week (particularly fatty fish). In addition, the data support inclusion
of vegetable oils (eg, soybean, canola, walnut, flaxseed) and food
sources (eg, walnuts, flaxseeds) high in -linolenic acid in a healthy
diet for the general population (Table 5). The fish recommendation must
be balanced with concerns about environmental pollutants, in particular
PCB and methylmercury, described in state and federal advisories.
Consumption of a variety of fish is recommended to minimize any
potentially adverse effects due to environmental pollutants and, at the
same time, achieve desired CVD health outcomes.
Op. cit.

Most destruction occurs around the skin.


BS.

refs:

Davis BC, Kris-Etherton PM. Achieving optimal essential fatty acid status
in vegetarians: current knowledge and practical implications. Am J Clin Nutr
2003; 78 (Suppl): 640S-646S


The abstract of the above cited study says:
Although vegetarian diets are generally lower in total fat, saturated
fat, and cholesterol than are nonvegetarian diets, they provide
comparable levels of essential fatty acids. Vegetarian, especially
vegan, diets are relatively low in alpha-linolenic acid (ALA) compared
with linoleic acid (LA) and provide little, if any, eicosapentaenoic
acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA). Clinical studies suggest that
tissue levels of long-chain n-3 fatty acids are depressed in
vegetarians, particularly in vegans. n-3 Fatty acids have numerous
physiologic benefits, including potent cardioprotective effects. These
effects have been demonstrated for ALA as well as EPA and DHA, although
the response is generally less for ALA than for EPA and DHA. Conversion
of ALA by the body to the more active longer-chain metabolites is
inefficient: 5-10% for EPA and 2-5% for DHA. Thus, total n-3
requirements may be higher for vegetarians than for nonvegetarians, as
vegetarians must rely on conversion of ALA to EPA and DHA. Because of
the beneficial effects of n-3 fatty acids, it is recommended that
vegetarians make dietary changes to optimize n-3 fatty acid status.
http://snipurl.com/722a

It says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about conversion of essential fatty acids into
transfats through cooking.

Mozaffarian D, Lemaitre RN, Kuller LH, Burke GL, Tracy RP, Siscovick DS;
Cardiovascular Health Study. Cardiac benefits of fish consumption may
depend on the type of fish meal consumed: the Cardiovascular Health
Study. Circulation 2003; 107: 1372-1377


Again, you're missing or just plain ****ing up the issue at hand. A summary of
that study says:
It may seem like common sense, but the species of fish you eat and the
way it is prepared makes a difference to its health-protecting
properties. It is widely accepted that the benefits associated with fish
consumption relate largely to their long-chain omega-3 polyunsaturated
fatty acids (n-3 LC-PUFAs), which are found in few other foods. Few
studies, however, have described or analyzed their findings according
the type of fish consumed. In particular, U.S. studies, where the
consumption of fish is low, seldom have the ability to make this type of
distinction. But Mozaffarian and coworkers have shown that fish is not
simply "fish."

They compared the effects on cardiac mortality of eating tuna, fried
fish or fish sandwiches, and other broiled or baked fish species in
adults aged 65 or older, who were free of CVD at baseline. Subjects were
monitored for 9.3 years. Because they were related, the consumption of
tuna and "other fish" was combined. Eating tuna or other broiled/baked
fish reduced the risk of cardiac death, particularly those from cardiac
arrhythmia, by nearly half compared with the fried fish eaters. Those
who ate tuna or other fish three times/week or more had a 49% lower
chance of fatal heart disease and a 58% reduced likelihood of fatal
cardiac arrhythmia compared with those eating tuna or other fish less
than once/month. Eating fried fish or fish sandwiches not only failed to
guard against cardiac fatality, it tended to make it more likely.

Several differences between the two types of fish consumption can be
suggested. Fried fish and commercially prepared fish sandwiches are
*HIGH IN FAT BECAUE OF THE FAT ADDED DURING PREPARATION AND COOKING*.
Fish sandwiches are usually made with lean white fish, the kind with the
*LEAST N-3 LC-PUFAs*. In addition, the KIND OF FAT ADDED is likely to
contain SATURATED and partially hydrogenated fat with TRANS FATty acids.
Neither of these help the heart. So, choose fatty fish species for the
most n-3 LC-PUFAs and prepare them with as little additional fat of any
kind.
http://www.fatsoflife.com/article.asp?i=a&id=64

My emphasis in the above. There is not *one word* of warning about conversion
into trans fat, but rather that trans fats used to cook lean white fish which is
already low in beneficial oils doesn't contribute to heart health (quite the
opposite. Just as the summary starts, it's COMMON SENSE. Too bad you have none
of that and instead misinform others either intentionally or through your own
incompetence.

  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 14-06-2004, 02:49 AM
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default No! I won't!

dec wrote:
You don't understand the meaning of *unstable*
where it relates to a carbon-carbon bond in a
polyunsatuated fatty acid.


Actually, I do.

You don't understand
all that the cis-configuration implies, or even some
of it. You irrationally insist that they are indestructable.


That is not my claim.

You are incorrect,


I am not.

and there is no shame in that,


You should know.

...
Ipse dixit. Your sources, as I will kindly show you, do not support this statement.


Full articles do,


No, they don't.

not necessarily abstracts.


The abstracts indicate something entirely incongruent with what you claim the
studies showed.

You're misstating the claims of the studies you erroneously cited. Frying isn't
"destructive,"


No, I am not.


Yes, you are.

I did not claim that the full explanation
was in any abstract.


The abstracts are entirely incongruent with your claims.

Exposure to heat, light, temperature, pressure, etc.
are all destructive. Longer exposures to higher
extremes are most destructive. The destruction of
long-chain omega3s in fish, or any other substance
containing omega3s, for that matter, begins at the
surface of the object that is cooking and works its
way inward towards the center with increasing time,
temperature, and/or pressure.


Note your snips next time. RESTO

You're misstating the claims of the studies you erroneously cited. Frying isn't
"destructive," it is counterproductive: it contributes *other* lipids to those
found in the fish. It's especially self-defeating if one fries one's salmon in
shortening or another transfat as Dr Kris-Etherton notes in another study of
fish oils and cardiac health: "Commercially prepared fried fish (eg, from
restaurants and fast food establishments, as well as many frozen,
convenience-type fried fish products) should be avoided because they are low in
omega-3 and high in trans-fatty acids."
http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/cont...ll/106/21/2747

Dr Kris-Etherton, et al, concluded:
Collectively, these data are supportive of the recommendation made by
the AHA Dietary Guidelines to include at least two servings of fish per
week (particularly fatty fish). In addition, the data support inclusion
of vegetable oils (eg, soybean, canola, walnut, flaxseed) and food
sources (eg, walnuts, flaxseeds) high in -linolenic acid in a healthy
diet for the general population (Table 5). The fish recommendation must
be balanced with concerns about environmental pollutants, in particular
PCB and methylmercury, described in state and federal advisories.
Consumption of a variety of fish is recommended to minimize any
potentially adverse effects due to environmental pollutants and, at the
same time, achieve desired CVD health outcomes.
Op. cit.

Most destruction occurs around the skin.



BS.

refs:

Davis BC, Kris-Etherton PM. Achieving optimal essential fatty acid status
in vegetarians: current knowledge and practical implications. Am J Clin Nutr
2003; 78 (Suppl): 640S-646S



The abstract of the above cited study says:
Although vegetarian diets are generally lower in total fat, saturated
fat, and cholesterol than are nonvegetarian diets, they provide
comparable levels of essential fatty acids. Vegetarian, especially
vegan, diets are relatively low in alpha-linolenic acid (ALA) compared
with linoleic acid (LA) and provide little, if any, eicosapentaenoic
acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA). Clinical studies suggest that
tissue levels of long-chain n-3 fatty acids are depressed in
vegetarians, particularly in vegans. n-3 Fatty acids have numerous
physiologic benefits, including potent cardioprotective effects. These
effects have been demonstrated for ALA as well as EPA and DHA, although
the response is generally less for ALA than for EPA and DHA. Conversion
of ALA by the body to the more active longer-chain metabolites is
inefficient: 5-10% for EPA and 2-5% for DHA. Thus, total n-3
requirements may be higher for vegetarians than for nonvegetarians, as
vegetarians must rely on conversion of ALA to EPA and DHA. Because of
the beneficial effects of n-3 fatty acids, it is recommended that
vegetarians make dietary changes to optimize n-3 fatty acid status.
http://snipurl.com/722a

It says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about conversion of essential fatty acids into
transfats through cooking.

Mozaffarian D, Lemaitre RN, Kuller LH, Burke GL, Tracy RP, Siscovick DS;
Cardiovascular Health Study. Cardiac benefits of fish consumption may
depend on the type of fish meal consumed: the Cardiovascular Health
Study. Circulation 2003; 107: 1372-1377



Again, you're missing or just plain ****ing up the issue at hand. A summary of
that study says:
It may seem like common sense, but the species of fish you eat and the
way it is prepared makes a difference to its health-protecting
properties. It is widely accepted that the benefits associated with fish
consumption relate largely to their long-chain omega-3 polyunsaturated
fatty acids (n-3 LC-PUFAs), which are found in few other foods. Few
studies, however, have described or analyzed their findings according
the type of fish consumed. In particular, U.S. studies, where the
consumption of fish is low, seldom have the ability to make this type of
distinction. But Mozaffarian and coworkers have shown that fish is not
simply "fish."

They compared the effects on cardiac mortality of eating tuna, fried
fish or fish sandwiches, and other broiled or baked fish species in
adults aged 65 or older, who were free of CVD at baseline. Subjects were
monitored for 9.3 years. Because they were related, the consumption of
tuna and "other fish" was combined. Eating tuna or other broiled/baked
fish reduced the risk of cardiac death, particularly those from cardiac
arrhythmia, by nearly half compared with the fried fish eaters. Those
who ate tuna or other fish three times/week or more had a 49% lower
chance of fatal heart disease and a 58% reduced likelihood of fatal
cardiac arrhythmia compared with those eating tuna or other fish less
than once/month. Eating fried fish or fish sandwiches not only failed to
guard against cardiac fatality, it tended to make it more likely.

Several differences between the two types of fish consumption can be
suggested. Fried fish and commercially prepared fish sandwiches are
*HIGH IN FAT BECAUE OF THE FAT ADDED DURING PREPARATION AND COOKING*.
Fish sandwiches are usually made with lean white fish, the kind with the
*LEAST N-3 LC-PUFAs*. In addition, the KIND OF FAT ADDED is likely to
contain SATURATED and partially hydrogenated fat with TRANS FATty acids.
Neither of these help the heart. So, choose fatty fish species for the
most n-3 LC-PUFAs and prepare them with as little additional fat of any
kind.
http://www.fatsoflife.com/article.asp?i=a&id=64

My emphasis in the above. There is not *one word* of warning about conversion
into trans fat, but rather that trans fats used to cook lean white fish which is
already low in beneficial oils doesn't contribute to heart health (quite the
opposite. Just as the summary starts, it's COMMON SENSE. Too bad you have none
of that and instead misinform others either intentionally or through your own
incompetence.

END RESTORE

The studies you cited had nothing whatsoever to do with your claims. QED.

  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 14-06-2004, 08:52 PM
T5NF
 
Posts: n/a
Default No! I won't!

Hey folks, take alt.food.vegan off the newsgroups that this thread is going to.


Thanks,

Fritz


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