Vegan (alt.food.vegan) This newsgroup exists to share ideas and issues of concern among vegans. We are always happy to share our recipes- perhaps especially with omnivores who are simply curious- or even better, accomodating a vegan guest for a meal!

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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Rubystars
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why I like soy milk

I hate milk. I've hated milk for a long time.

I like yogurt, and ice cream, and cheese, but I hate milk.

I've had slight calcium deficiencies before because I avoided drinking milk.
I know I had these because I had some pretty awful foot cramps and my doctor
told me to take elemental calcium supplements to help with the cramps and
that made them go away while I was taking it.

Soy milk on the other hand has a different texture and I like it a lot
better. So I can drink it and get the calcium (same as milk, because it's
got it put into it) and not have to drink in that yucky texture. I could
drink orange juice too, but I still like soy milk.

-Rubystars


  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
WorldsWorst
 
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Default Why I like soy milk

That's cool - have you tried So Good soya milk? It's my favourite so far.
My local supermarket also had oat milk the other day - it's Vegan Society
approved and it tasted great!

lol

Rubystars > wrote in message
. ..
> I hate milk. I've hated milk for a long time.
>
> I like yogurt, and ice cream, and cheese, but I hate milk.
>
> I've had slight calcium deficiencies before because I avoided drinking

milk.
> I know I had these because I had some pretty awful foot cramps and my

doctor
> told me to take elemental calcium supplements to help with the cramps and
> that made them go away while I was taking it.
>
> Soy milk on the other hand has a different texture and I like it a lot
> better. So I can drink it and get the calcium (same as milk, because it's
> got it put into it) and not have to drink in that yucky texture. I could
> drink orange juice too, but I still like soy milk.
>
> -Rubystars
>
>



  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Rubystars
 
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Default Why I like soy milk


"WorldsWorst" > wrote in message
...
> That's cool - have you tried So Good soya milk? It's my favourite so far.
> My local supermarket also had oat milk the other day - it's Vegan Society
> approved and it tasted great!
>
> lol


I've tried Silk and HEB brand. I haven't tried the others. I'm interested in
what oat milk, rice milk, and almond milk taste like too but I've never had
them.

-Rubystars


  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Balarama
 
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Default Why I like soy milk


"Rubystars" > wrote in message
...
>
> "WorldsWorst" > wrote in message
> ...
> > That's cool - have you tried So Good soya milk? It's my favourite so

far.
> > My local supermarket also had oat milk the other day - it's Vegan

Society
> > approved and it tasted great!
> >
> > lol

>
> I've tried Silk and HEB brand. I haven't tried the others. I'm interested

in
> what oat milk, rice milk, and almond milk taste like too but I've never

had
> them.


I get the lowest price soy milk they sell at Whole foods..
1.19 a quart-tastes pretty good--sometimes I get vanilla flavored for
variety...family likes it better than milk
Michael
>
> -Rubystars
>
>



  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Rubystars
 
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Default Why I like soy milk


"Michael Balarama" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Rubystars" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "WorldsWorst" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > That's cool - have you tried So Good soya milk? It's my favourite so

> far.
> > > My local supermarket also had oat milk the other day - it's Vegan

> Society
> > > approved and it tasted great!
> > >
> > > lol

> >
> > I've tried Silk and HEB brand. I haven't tried the others. I'm

interested
> in
> > what oat milk, rice milk, and almond milk taste like too but I've never

> had
> > them.

>
> I get the lowest price soy milk they sell at Whole foods..
> 1.19 a quart-tastes pretty good--sometimes I get vanilla flavored for
> variety...family likes it better than milk
> Michael


I've never tried the plain flavor. I usually drink vanilla and sometimes
chocolate.

-Rubystars




  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Balarama
 
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Default Why I like soy milk


"Rubystars" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Michael Balarama" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Rubystars" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "WorldsWorst" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > That's cool - have you tried So Good soya milk? It's my favourite

so
> > far.
> > > > My local supermarket also had oat milk the other day - it's Vegan

> > Society
> > > > approved and it tasted great!
> > > >
> > > > lol
> > >
> > > I've tried Silk and HEB brand. I haven't tried the others. I'm

> interested
> > in
> > > what oat milk, rice milk, and almond milk taste like too but I've

never
> > had
> > > them.

> >
> > I get the lowest price soy milk they sell at Whole foods..
> > 1.19 a quart-tastes pretty good--sometimes I get vanilla flavored for
> > variety...family likes it better than milk
> > Michael

>
> I've never tried the plain flavor. I usually drink vanilla and sometimes
> chocolate.
>

plain flavor is neutral tasting-not as yummy as the other flavors-
personally I like variety-my wife is a purist-natural less ingredients...


> -Rubystars
>
>



  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
BlueHeron
 
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Default Why I like soy milk



Michael Balarama wrote:
> "Rubystars" > wrote in message

<snip>
>>>I get the lowest price soy milk they sell at Whole foods..
>>>1.19 a quart-tastes pretty good--sometimes I get vanilla flavored for
>>>variety...family likes it better than milk
>>>Michael

>>
>>I've never tried the plain flavor. I usually drink vanilla and sometimes
>>chocolate.
>>

>
> plain flavor is neutral tasting-not as yummy as the other flavors-
> personally I like variety-my wife is a purist-natural less ingredients...


Yup, have to agree with your wife. I would drink natural all the time
(soybean and water being the only ingredients), except that I also drink
it for the fortification factor (calcium, vitamins, etc), so I also
drink original. I am a So Nice fan, because I like to support Canadian
products.

My biggest beef with original is that it is sweetened. So nice at
least uses beet juice, which is nice, and it also has less sugar (beet
juice) than the chocolate or vanilla ones.

-- Chris
  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why I like soy milk

Michael Balarama wrote:
<...>
>>I've never tried the plain flavor. I usually drink vanilla and sometimes
>>chocolate.

>
> plain flavor is neutral tasting-not as yummy as the other flavors-
> personally I like variety-my wife is a purist-natural less ingredients...


I must respectfully ask, What's "natural" about fake milk made of boiled
soybeans, sea salt, sweetener, stabilizers, and some added vitamins?

  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick etter
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why I like soy milk


"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> Michael Balarama wrote:
> <...>
> >>I've never tried the plain flavor. I usually drink vanilla and sometimes
> >>chocolate.

> >
> > plain flavor is neutral tasting-not as yummy as the other flavors-
> > personally I like variety-my wife is a purist-natural less

ingredients...
>
> I must respectfully ask, What's "natural" about fake milk made of boiled
> soybeans, sea salt, sweetener, stabilizers, and some added vitamins?
> =================

LOL Great question, Usual....

Ah, the ignorance of vegans knows no bounds, does it?


  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why I like soy milk

rick etter wrote:
>><...>
>>
>>>>I've never tried the plain flavor. I usually drink vanilla and sometimes
>>>>chocolate.
>>>
>>>plain flavor is neutral tasting-not as yummy as the other flavors-
>>>personally I like variety-my wife is a purist-natural less

>
> ingredients...
>
>>I must respectfully ask, What's "natural" about fake milk made of boiled
>>soybeans, sea salt, sweetener, stabilizers, and some added vitamins?
>>=================

>
> LOL Great question, Usual....
>
> Ah, the ignorance of vegans knows no bounds, does it?


It's pretty funny sometimes. We have a "hippie" health food store here that
sells the following product (link below) up front at the cash register. I
noticed the packaging and started laughing. The cashier wanted to know what was
so funny, so I pointed to the part about it being "all natural." I asked her
what was so natural about making soybeans taste just like real jerky. She wasn't
amused. Those people never are.

http://www.veganessentials.com/catal...s-jerquee-.htm



  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick etter
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why I like soy milk


"Common Man" <not.public@> wrote in message
s.com...
> On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:41:32 GMT, usual suspect >
> wrote:
>
> >rick etter wrote:
> >>><...>
> >>>
> >>>>>I've never tried the plain flavor. I usually drink vanilla and

sometimes
> >>>>>chocolate.
> >>>>
> >>>>plain flavor is neutral tasting-not as yummy as the other flavors-
> >>>>personally I like variety-my wife is a purist-natural less
> >>
> >> ingredients...
> >>
> >>>I must respectfully ask, What's "natural" about fake milk made of

boiled
> >>>soybeans, sea salt, sweetener, stabilizers, and some added vitamins?
> >>>=================
> >>
> >> LOL Great question, Usual....
> >>
> >> Ah, the ignorance of vegans knows no bounds, does it?

> >
> >It's pretty funny sometimes. We have a "hippie" health food store here

that
> >sells the following product (link below) up front at the cash register. I
> >noticed the packaging and started laughing. The cashier wanted to know

what was
> >so funny, so I pointed to the part about it being "all natural." I asked

her
> >what was so natural about making soybeans taste just like real jerky. She

wasn't
> >amused. Those people never are.
> >
> >http://www.veganessentials.com/catal...s-jerquee-.htm

>
> Don't many if not most vegans detest the idea of eating meat? If so,
> then wouldn't they find such a product offensive?
> ============================

No, they inaccurately believe that animals only die when real meat is eaten.
Have you not seen the number of meat substitutes that are on the market that
veg*ns still love to eat? So obviously for all of them it's not the taste
or texture of meat that they dislike. The real hoot about all that is that
they then claim the fake meats are an 'all natural' food stuff. As if you
could really find any 'naturally' occuring tofu paste or tvp just lying in
the fields. The best part of all this is that if you really get down to it,
no mono-cultured crop is 'natural' at all. No where have I ever seen
fields of cabbages spontaneously appear. Their whole belief system is based
on stupidity and ignorance.




>



  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
BlueHeron
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why I like soy milk



Common Man wrote:

> On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:41:32 GMT, usual suspect >
> wrote:


>>>>I must respectfully ask, What's "natural" about fake milk made of boiled
>>>>soybeans, sea salt, sweetener, stabilizers, and some added vitamins?
>>>>=================
>>>
>>>LOL Great question, Usual....
>>>
>>>Ah, the ignorance of vegans knows no bounds, does it?


Which is pretty funny, considering that at least in Canada, "natural"
flavour is simply soybean and water, which, imho is perfectly natural.
Certainly more so than the stuff that goes into cow milk these days
(milk, preservatives, vitamins, stabilizers, etc).

http://www.sonice.ca/English/beverages_natural.html

Before you go calling people ignorant, you should at least know what you
are talking about.

Now if the discussion was about "plain", "original", vanilla, chocolate
or any other flavour, then you would be right. They start joining the
"drink" group and seriously start moving away from the 100% natural group

Cheers,

-- Blue
  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why I like soy milk

Common Man wrote:
>>>>>>I've never tried the plain flavor. I usually drink vanilla and sometimes
>>>>>>chocolate.
>>>>>
>>>>>plain flavor is neutral tasting-not as yummy as the other flavors-
>>>>>personally I like variety-my wife is a purist-natural less
>>>
>>>ingredients...
>>>
>>>
>>>>I must respectfully ask, What's "natural" about fake milk made of boiled
>>>>soybeans, sea salt, sweetener, stabilizers, and some added vitamins?
>>>>=================
>>>
>>>LOL Great question, Usual....
>>>
>>>Ah, the ignorance of vegans knows no bounds, does it?

>>
>>It's pretty funny sometimes. We have a "hippie" health food store here that
>>sells the following product (link below) up front at the cash register. I
>>noticed the packaging and started laughing. The cashier wanted to know what was
>>so funny, so I pointed to the part about it being "all natural." I asked her
>>what was so natural about making soybeans taste just like real jerky. She wasn't
>>amused. Those people never are.
>>
>>http://www.veganessentials.com/catal...s-jerquee-.htm

>
>
> Don't many if not most vegans detest the idea of eating meat?


Supposedly, yet they seek out fake meat products.

> If so, then wouldn't they find such a product offensive?


I've taken a lot of crap from them for pointing out their hypocrisy.

Most vegans, even those who self-righteously affix the
sanctimonious qualifier "ethical" to their brand of veganism, reject the
truly low-impact alternatives which are really nothing but matters of
self-sufficiency (gardening, etc.). The fact that they purchase analogs
and other products show they (a) contribute to "cruelty" in farming and
(b) really haven't lost their taste (and preference!) for consuming
animal flesh.
-- yours truly, http://snipurl.com/6uyr

And from a lengthier post that addressed the same issue regarding a British
vegan restaurant that through a family out for feeding a baby some meat:

If the smell and taste of "rotting animals" is so bloody ****ing
offensive, why does that restaurant offer fake meat products like vegan
sausages, "nut" roasts, and other such products?
http://www.rendezvous.co.uk/

Take a look at how many veg-ns demand faux meat products, and how many
of them consider things better now that such products are widely
available AND they taste just like stinking, rotting flesh.

"Finally there is a product vegetarians can SIZZLE on an outdoor grill
OR cook in the comfort of the kitchen !"
http://www.tofurky.com/products.htm

'"Finally, vegetarians have a bona fide holiday centerpiece that is all
their own. They don’t have to settle for second best anymore" was how
one satisfied customer described it.'
http://www.tofurky.com/tofurky/default.htm

Why is it unacceptable to feed a child real meat while everyone else in
the restaurant is eating stuff formulated to look, taste, and feel like
real meat?

Address why it's okay to eat stuff that's supposed to taste JUST LIKE
dead cows, chickens, fish, etc.... What does that tell us about the
phony people who eat phony animal-flavored foods? ****ing hypocrites.
-- yours truly, http://snipurl.com/6uyq

They've yet to address my questions on this matter over a period of a couple
years since I started asking them.

  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
tamale caliente
 
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Default Why I like soy milk

BlueHeron wrote:
>>>>> I must respectfully ask, What's "natural" about fake milk made of
>>>>> boiled
>>>>> soybeans, sea salt, sweetener, stabilizers, and some added vitamins?
>>>>> =================
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> LOL Great question, Usual....
>>>>
>>>> Ah, the ignorance of vegans knows no bounds, does it?

>
> Which is pretty funny, considering that at least in Canada, "natural"
> flavour is simply soybean and water, which, imho is perfectly natural.


What's natural about hydrolyzing soy beans to make them taste like "natural
flavour"? Soy beans are pretty bland on their own which is why most people are
put off by them. It's all the fidgeting around with them in kitchens and labs
that makes them taste "meaty."

> Certainly more so than the stuff that goes into cow milk these days
> (milk, preservatives, vitamins, stabilizers, etc).


What preservatives and stabilizers are added to cow's milk?

> http://www.sonice.ca/English/beverages_natural.html
>
> Before you go calling people ignorant, you should at least know what you
> are talking about.


He does know what he's talking about.

> Now if the discussion was about "plain", "original", vanilla, chocolate
> or any other flavour, then you would be right. They start joining the
> "drink" group and seriously start moving away from the 100% natural group


There's nothing "natural" about soy milk. It's an alternative -- a substitute --
which mimics a natural food. Review the thread for past threads dealing with
inquiries about which soy milks, rice milks, nut milks, etc., taste *just*
*like* milk. While you're at it, look for recipes and product endorsements for
meat substitutes. Why do people vegans make and buy products that taste just
like "dead flesh" if "dead flesh" is so off-putting to vegans?

  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
BlueHeron
 
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Default Why I like soy milk



tamale caliente wrote:

> BlueHeron wrote:
>
>>>>>> I must respectfully ask, What's "natural" about fake milk made of
>>>>>> boiled
>>>>>> soybeans, sea salt, sweetener, stabilizers, and some added vitamins?
>>>>>> =================
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> LOL Great question, Usual....
>>>>>
>>>>> Ah, the ignorance of vegans knows no bounds, does it?

>>
>>
>> Which is pretty funny, considering that at least in Canada, "natural"
>> flavour is simply soybean and water, which, imho is perfectly natural.

>
>
> What's natural about hydrolyzing soy beans to make them taste like
> "natural flavour"? Soy beans are pretty bland on their own which is why
> most people are put off by them. It's all the fidgeting around with them
> in kitchens and labs that makes them taste "meaty."


Ah yes, add water to something is so un-natural. Give me a break!

SoNice Natural is GMO free soybeens with water. It is also quite tasty.
there is no "fidgeting around" with them, other than this thing called
"processing", which, as I am sure you are aware, milk undergoes as well.

>> Certainly more so than the stuff that goes into cow milk these days
>> (milk, preservatives, vitamins, stabilizers, etc).

>
> What preservatives and stabilizers are added to cow's milk?


It varies from brand to brand. For my wife I buy UHT filtered milk
because there are no chemical preservatives. But local regular Parmalat
milk does have preservaites.

>> http://www.sonice.ca/English/beverages_natural.html
>>
>> Before you go calling people ignorant, you should at least know what
>> you are talking about.

>
>
> He does know what he's talking about.


Not so, as "natural" soy milk does not have any sugars in it, or
vitamins, or preservatives or stabalizers.

>> Now if the discussion was about "plain", "original", vanilla,
>> chocolate or any other flavour, then you would be right. They start
>> joining the "drink" group and seriously start moving away from the
>> 100% natural group

>
>
> There's nothing "natural" about soy milk. It's an alternative -- a
> substitute -- which mimics a natural food. Review the thread for past
> threads dealing with inquiries about which soy milks, rice milks, nut
> milks, etc., taste *just* *like* milk. While you're at it, look for
> recipes and product endorsements for meat substitutes. Why do people
> vegans make and buy products that taste just like "dead flesh" if "dead
> flesh" is so off-putting to vegans?


Good question, why do they? I really cant answer that since it is not
something that I do. I happen to use soymilk both on my cereal because
I like the taste (and I never liked the state of milk, but that could
also have been due to my lactose intolerance) and in baking. Do I use
meat substitutes? Rarely, and usually when I am cooking for omnivores.

I don't expect, or want, my soy milk or rice milk, etc, to taste "just
like milk". I never expected goat milk to taste like cow milk either.
They are not the same thing.

From my experiences, people who look for and enjoy the substitutes the
most are people who have just switched to a vegetarian diet. These
things do make the transition much easier.

BTW: There is nothing natural about humans drinking the milk of other
animal species. I can't think of another creature that does it. While
we are on the topic of "natural".

-- Blue


  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why I like soy milk

BlueHeron wrote:
>>>>>>> I must respectfully ask, What's "natural" about fake milk made of
>>>>>>> boiled
>>>>>>> soybeans, sea salt, sweetener, stabilizers, and some added vitamins?
>>>>>>> =================
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LOL Great question, Usual....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah, the ignorance of vegans knows no bounds, does it?
>>>
>>> Which is pretty funny, considering that at least in Canada, "natural"
>>> flavour is simply soybean and water, which, imho is perfectly natural.

>>
>> What's natural about hydrolyzing soy beans to make them taste like
>> "natural flavour"? Soy beans are pretty bland on their own which is
>> why most people are put off by them. It's all the fidgeting around
>> with them in kitchens and labs that makes them taste "meaty."

>
> Ah yes, add water to something is so un-natural. Give me a break!


Apparently you don't understand that more than water is added to soy to make
HVP, aka "artificial flavor," much less that it's a highly processed food.
Hydrolyzed vegetable protein (HVP) is a protein obtained from any
vegetable, including soybeans. The protein is broken down into amino
acids by a chemical process called hydrolysis. HVP is a flavor enhancer
that can be used in soups, broths, sauces, gravies, flavoring and spice
blends, canned and frozen vegetables, meats and poultry.

Hydrolyzed vegetable protein is not established by FDA as an appropriate
name for labeling purposes. The listing of a HVP should be specific to
the ingredient and include the identity of the source from which the
protein was derived. Examples of acceptable FDA designations include
hydrolyzed corn protein, hydrolyzed soy protein, and hydrolyzed wheat
protein.
http://www.fcs.okstate.edu/cnep/ask/...hrdrolyzed.htm

Most soy sauces are made of hydrolyzed soy rather than of lengthier
fermentation. How is it made? Glad you asked.
This process consists of putting soybeans or another grain source
through acid hydrolysis at an elevated temperature for 15 to 20 hours to
make hydrolyzed vegetable protein (HVP). The soy sauce manufacturer
then neutralizes the liquid and purifies it by filtration. Additional
ingredients include salt water (15% to 20% salt concentration), corn
syrup or molasses for sweetness, caramel color (about 5% in the case of
D.D. Williamson's Caramel Color #201 depending on the desired color),
and sometimes MSG and/or I+G to enhance the flavor.
http://www.caramelworld.com/solution...amel_color.asp

BTW, while we're on the subject of acid hydrolysis, some food agencies
(specifically in Australia, New Zealand, and the UK) have detected elevated
amounts of carcinogens called chloropropanols in acid HVPs and advised consumers
to avoid products containing unsafe levels.
In Food Safety & Hygiene February 2001, we discussed briefly concerns in
the UK and other European countries over the level of chloropropanols
found in surveys of acid hydrolysed vegetable protein (acid HVP) and
some soy sauces and related products. The chloropropanols of most
concern are 3-monochloropropane-1, 2-diol (3-MCPD) and 1,
3-dichloro-2-propanol (1, 3-DCP). Both are suspected carcinogens and the
UK Government has been working with industry for several years to ensure
that they are in foods at the lowest technologically feasible level. In
March 2001, the European Commission adopted a regulatory limit of 0.02
mg/kg, based on 40 per cent dry matter content, for 3-MCPD in both soy
sauce and hydrolysed vegetable protein to take effect in April 2001.

In June of this year, the British Food Standards Agency (BFSA) released
two Food Survey Information Sheets (14/01, 15/01) which contained
results of its most recent survey of 3-MCPD and 1, 3-DCP levels
respectively in soy sauce and related products.

The survey showed that 22 per cent of 100 samples of sauces contained
levels of 3-MCPD above the European limit while 17 per cent of the
samples contained measurable levels of 1, 3-DCP. As a result of this
survey the BFSA named the brands of products which did not meet the EU
standard and advised consumers to avoid those products. Retailers
responsible for selling soy sauces identified as containing high levels
of 3-MCPD were asked to remove any remaining stock from their shelves.
http://www.foodscience.afisc.csiro.a.../fshbull26.htm

As Mr Etter and I have kindly pointed out to you halfwits before, Asians do not
consume soy products in the forms or the amounts Western veg-ns do. Traditional
use consists of small amounts of fermented products like genuine tamari (which
is fermented, not processed using acids as above), tempeh, and miso, and small
infrequent consumption of tofu, edamame, or other unfermented soy product.

> SoNice Natural is GMO free soybeens with water.


Is that all? That's not what the label says:
Filtered Water, Organic Whole Soybeans, Chicory Syrup, Tricalcium
Phosphate, Sea Salt, Carrageenan, Magnesium Phosphate, Ascorbic Acid,
Niacin, Zinc Gluconate, Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Vitamin B6, Vitamin A,
Thiamine, Folacin, Vitamin D2, Vitamin B12.

Carrageenan is also known as Irish moss. It's a sea weed used as a stabilizer. I
read the labels on milk cartons at the store while ago. The ingredient list was
much shorter: milk, vitamin A, vitamin D. No stabilizers like carrageenan. No
tricalcium phosphate or magnesium phosphate. No chicory syrup. No sea salt.

BTW, the ingredients are listed on your SoNice. And at this convenient web page:
http://www.sonice-soyganic.com/Engli..._original.html

> It is also quite tasty.


I haven't tasted that particular brand, but I've tried many others. I don't find
most of them "tasty." One reason why sweeteners (such as the chicory syrup in
your SoNice -- hehe) are added is to mask the unpleasant aftertaste of soy.

> there is no "fidgeting around" with them,


Well, your initial response about "artificial flavour" has been debunked -- the
processing involves the use of acids and processing for hours on end. Your
second response about SoNice has also been demonstrated to be in error. It's
more than soybeans and water. It's a processed -- not natural -- food.

> other than this thing called
> "processing", which, as I am sure you are aware, milk undergoes as well.


What kind of processing? Pasteurization -- rapid heating to kill germs.
Homogenization and/or skimming -- to keep any remaining dairy fats suspended.
Adding vitamins. Bottling. Compared to soy milk and soy sauce, milk is more
natural imho.

>>> Certainly more so than the stuff that goes into cow milk these days
>>> (milk, preservatives, vitamins, stabilizers, etc).

>>
>>
>> What preservatives and stabilizers are added to cow's milk?

>
> It varies from brand to brand.


Give me some examples, please.

> For my wife I buy UHT filtered milk
> because there are no chemical preservatives. But local regular Parmalat
> milk does have preservaites.


Such as?

>>> http://www.sonice.ca/English/beverages_natural.html
>>>
>>> Before you go calling people ignorant, you should at least know what
>>> you are talking about.

>>
>> He does know what he's talking about.

>
> Not so, as "natural" soy milk does not have any sugars in it,


WTF do you call "chicory *SYRUP*"? From the SoNice website:
Chicory Syrup - A natural fructose syrup obtained from non-GMO chicory
root.

> or vitamins,


Oh yeah? From your SoNice label information:

Tricalcium Phosphate - provides calcium, along with phosphorous.

Magnesium Phosphate - provides magnesium, along with phosphorous.

Ascorbic Acid - Vitamin C, but it serves as a preservative.

Niacin - vitamin B3.

Zinc Gluconate - provides zinc; most veg-ns are zinc-deficient.

Pantothenate - vitamin B5.

Riboflavin - vitamin B2.

Vitamin B6.

Vitamin A.

Thiamine - B1.

Folacin - B9.

Vitamin D2.

Vitamin B12.


What was your point again?

> or preservatives


Ascorbic acid.

> or stabalizers.


Carrageenan.

>>> Now if the discussion was about "plain", "original", vanilla,
>>> chocolate or any other flavour, then you would be right. They start
>>> joining the "drink" group and seriously start moving away from the
>>> 100% natural group

>>
>> There's nothing "natural" about soy milk. It's an alternative -- a
>> substitute -- which mimics a natural food. Review the thread for past
>> threads dealing with inquiries about which soy milks, rice milks, nut
>> milks, etc., taste *just* *like* milk. While you're at it, look for
>> recipes and product endorsements for meat substitutes. Why do people
>> vegans make and buy products that taste just like "dead flesh" if
>> "dead flesh" is so off-putting to vegans?

>
> Good question, why do they?


You tell me. I've been asking the question for a couple years. Nobody has the
balls to answer.

> I really cant answer that since it is not
> something that I do. I happen to use soymilk both on my cereal because
> I like the taste (and I never liked the state of milk, but that could
> also have been due to my lactose intolerance) and in baking. Do I use
> meat substitutes? Rarely, and usually when I am cooking for omnivores.


Why don't you cook meat for them?

> I don't expect, or want, my soy milk or rice milk, etc, to taste "just
> like milk". I never expected goat milk to taste like cow milk either.
> They are not the same thing.
>
> From my experiences, people who look for and enjoy the substitutes the
> most are people who have just switched to a vegetarian diet. These
> things do make the transition much easier.
>
> BTW: There is nothing natural about humans drinking the milk of other
> animal species.


Consider the following web page.
http://www.milk.mb.ca/Nutritin/myth/myths2.htm

> I can't think of another creature that does it.


So? Can you think of any other creature that farms and grows soy beans, much
less makes fake milk out of them? Or that adds vitamins, salt, sweetener,
stabilizers, etc., to soy milk? No, neither can I.

> While we are on the topic of "natural".


Well, I hope you've learned from my reply that real milk is less processed than
soy milk. Real dairy is a more natural product than soy milk. Read a real milk
label: milk, vitamin A, vitamin D. It's flash pasteurized, cooled, skimmed
and/or homogenized, bottled, and that's it. It's not boiled for hours like soy
beans are. Contains no preservatives like ascorbic acid. No sweeteners like
chicory syrup. No stabilizers like carrageenan (seaweed). No salt. No other
vitamins and minerals -- it's already rich in calcium and B12.

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/chd/FoodLab...l-skimmilk.gif

  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why I like soy milk

Common Man wrote:
>>>>>>>>I've never tried the plain flavor. I usually drink vanilla and sometimes
>>>>>>>>chocolate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>plain flavor is neutral tasting-not as yummy as the other flavors-
>>>>>>>personally I like variety-my wife is a purist-natural less
>>>>>
>>>>>ingredients...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I must respectfully ask, What's "natural" about fake milk made of boiled
>>>>>>soybeans, sea salt, sweetener, stabilizers, and some added vitamins?
>>>>>>=================
>>>>>
>>>>>LOL Great question, Usual....
>>>>>
>>>>>Ah, the ignorance of vegans knows no bounds, does it?
>>>>
>>>>It's pretty funny sometimes. We have a "hippie" health food store here that
>>>>sells the following product (link below) up front at the cash register. I
>>>>noticed the packaging and started laughing. The cashier wanted to know what was
>>>>so funny, so I pointed to the part about it being "all natural." I asked her
>>>>what was so natural about making soybeans taste just like real jerky. She wasn't
>>>>amused. Those people never are.
>>>>
>>>>http://www.veganessentials.com/catal...s-jerquee-.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>Don't many if not most vegans detest the idea of eating meat?

>>
>>Supposedly, yet they seek out fake meat products.

>
> Which makes absolutely no sense to me. If the idea of eating meat is
> offensive, then why would they want to eat vegan burgers or sausages
> meant to look and taste like meat products?


Ask the vegans who crave them. I've been asking them for a couple years and they
won't tell me.

>>> If so, then wouldn't they find such a product offensive?

>>
>>I've taken a lot of crap from them for pointing out their hypocrisy.
>>
>> Most vegans, even those who self-righteously affix the
>> sanctimonious qualifier "ethical" to their brand of veganism, reject the
>> truly low-impact alternatives which are really nothing but matters of
>> self-sufficiency (gardening, etc.). The fact that they purchase analogs
>> and other products show they (a) contribute to "cruelty" in farming and
>> (b) really haven't lost their taste (and preference!) for consuming
>> animal flesh.
>> -- yours truly, http://snipurl.com/6uyr
>>
>>And from a lengthier post that addressed the same issue regarding a British
>>vegan restaurant that through a family out for feeding a baby some meat:
>>
>> If the smell and taste of "rotting animals" is so bloody ****ing
>> offensive, why does that restaurant offer fake meat products like vegan
>> sausages, "nut" roasts, and other such products?
>> http://www.rendezvous.co.uk/
>>
>> Take a look at how many veg-ns demand faux meat products, and how many
>> of them consider things better now that such products are widely
>> available AND they taste just like stinking, rotting flesh.
>>
>> "Finally there is a product vegetarians can SIZZLE on an outdoor grill
>> OR cook in the comfort of the kitchen !"
>> http://www.tofurky.com/products.htm

>
>
> A great example of what we're talking about. "Certified vegan"
> products all made to look and taste like the very meat products they
> are supposed to dread so much.


The irony is that more animals are killed in the course of growing soy and wheat
for such products ("tofurkey") than would die if they were to eat one real
turkey. The dead turkey on the table is one animal death. How many mice, rats,
birds, snakes, etc., are killed in planting, applying pesticides to, harvesting,
transporting, and storing soy and wheat? They don't care about all those
animals, they just stuff their pie holes with fake dead turkey and fake hot dogs
and fake burgers and fake jerky and fake sandwich meats on the false assumption
that they're doing something to help animals. They're full of shit.

>> '"Finally, vegetarians have a bona fide holiday centerpiece that is all
>> their own. They don’t have to settle for second best anymore" was how
>> one satisfied customer described it.'
>> http://www.tofurky.com/tofurky/default.htm
>>
>> Why is it unacceptable to feed a child real meat while everyone else in
>> the restaurant is eating stuff formulated to look, taste, and feel like
>> real meat?
>>
>> Address why it's okay to eat stuff that's supposed to taste JUST LIKE
>> dead cows, chickens, fish, etc.... What does that tell us about the
>> phony people who eat phony animal-flavored foods? ****ing hypocrites.
>> -- yours truly, http://snipurl.com/6uyq
>>
>>They've yet to address my questions on this matter over a period of a couple
>>years since I started asking them.

>
> Makes you wonder, doesn't it?


Not really. Their agenda is pretty obvious, and their realities never match
their rhetoric. It's not about compassion for animals, it's about hatred of
humans. The "animals" are a diversion for their perverse misanthropy. Read back
in the Google archives of this group and see how many "compassionate vegans"
have wished harm upon meat eaters and those who favor animal testing. Maybe Rick
has kept count of all the heart attacks wished upon him. On second thought, he
probably lost track if he ever did that.

  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ramon del Gato
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why I like soy milk

BlueHeron wrote:

>>>>>>> I must respectfully ask, What's "natural" about fake milk made of boiled
>>>>>>> soybeans, sea salt, sweetener, stabilizers, and some added vitamins?
>>>>>>> =================
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LOL Great question, Usual....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ah, the ignorance of vegans knows no bounds, does it?
>>>
>>>
>>> Which is pretty funny, considering that at least in Canada, "natural"

flavour is simply soybean and water, which, imho is perfectly natural.
>>
>>
>> What's natural about hydrolyzing soy beans to make them taste like "natural

flavour"? Soy beans are pretty bland on their own which is why most people are
put off by them. It's all the fidgeting around with them in kitchens and labs
that makes them taste "meaty."
>
>
> Ah yes, add water to something is so un-natural. Give me a break!



Apparently you don't understand that more than water is added to soy to make
HVP, aka "artificial flavor," much less that it's a highly processed food.
Hydrolyzed vegetable protein (HVP) is a protein obtained from any
vegetable, including soybeans. The protein is broken down into amino
acids by a chemical process called hydrolysis. HVP is a flavor enhancer
that can be used in soups, broths, sauces, gravies, flavoring and spice
blends, canned and frozen vegetables, meats and poultry.

Hydrolyzed vegetable protein is not established by FDA as an appropriate
name for labeling purposes. The listing of a HVP should be specific to
the ingredient and include the identity of the source from which the
protein was derived. Examples of acceptable FDA designations include
hydrolyzed corn protein, hydrolyzed soy protein, and hydrolyzed wheat
protein.
http://www.fcs.okstate.edu/cnep/ask/...hrdrolyzed.htm

Most soy sauces are made of hydrolyzed soy rather than of lengthier
fermentation. How is it made? Glad you asked.
This process consists of putting soybeans or another grain source
through acid hydrolysis at an elevated temperature for 15 to 20 hours to
make hydrolyzed vegetable protein (HVP). The soy sauce manufacturer
then neutralizes the liquid and purifies it by filtration. Additional
ingredients include salt water (15% to 20% salt concentration), corn
syrup or molasses for sweetness, caramel color (about 5% in the case of
D.D. Williamson's Caramel Color #201 depending on the desired color),
and sometimes MSG and/or I+G to enhance the flavor.
http://www.caramelworld.com/solution...amel_color.asp

BTW, while we're on the subject of acid hydrolysis, some food agencies
(specifically in Australia, New Zealand, and the UK) have detected elevated
amounts of carcinogens called chloropropanols in acid HVPs and advised consumers
to avoid products containing unsafe levels.
In Food Safety & Hygiene February 2001, we discussed briefly concerns in
the UK and other European countries over the level of chloropropanols
found in surveys of acid hydrolysed vegetable protein (acid HVP) and
some soy sauces and related products. The chloropropanols of most
concern are 3-monochloropropane-1, 2-diol (3-MCPD) and 1,
3-dichloro-2-propanol (1, 3-DCP). Both are suspected carcinogens and the
UK Government has been working with industry for several years to ensure
that they are in foods at the lowest technologically feasible level. In
March 2001, the European Commission adopted a regulatory limit of 0.02
mg/kg, based on 40 per cent dry matter content, for 3-MCPD in both soy
sauce and hydrolysed vegetable protein to take effect in April 2001.

In June of this year, the British Food Standards Agency (BFSA) released
two Food Survey Information Sheets (14/01, 15/01) which contained
results of its most recent survey of 3-MCPD and 1, 3-DCP levels
respectively in soy sauce and related products.

The survey showed that 22 per cent of 100 samples of sauces contained
levels of 3-MCPD above the European limit while 17 per cent of the
samples contained measurable levels of 1, 3-DCP. As a result of this
survey the BFSA named the brands of products which did not meet the EU
standard and advised consumers to avoid those products. Retailers
responsible for selling soy sauces identified as containing high levels
of 3-MCPD were asked to remove any remaining stock from their shelves.
http://www.foodscience.afisc.csiro.a.../fshbull26.htm

As Mr Etter and I have kindly pointed out to you halfwits before, Asians do not
consume soy products in the forms or the amounts Western veg-ns do. Traditional
use consists of small amounts of fermented products like genuine tamari (which
is fermented, not processed using acids as above), tempeh, and miso, and small
infrequent consumption of tofu, edamame, or other unfermented soy product.

> SoNice Natural is GMO free soybeens with water.



Is that all? That's not what the label says:
Filtered Water, Organic Whole Soybeans, Chicory Syrup, Tricalcium
Phosphate, Sea Salt, Carrageenan, Magnesium Phosphate, Ascorbic Acid,
Niacin, Zinc Gluconate, Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Vitamin B6, Vitamin A,
Thiamine, Folacin, Vitamin D2, Vitamin B12.

Carrageenan is also known as Irish moss. It's a sea weed used as a stabilizer. I
read the labels on milk cartons at the store while ago. The ingredient list was
much shorter: milk, vitamin A, vitamin D. No stabilizers like carrageenan. No
tricalcium phosphate or magnesium phosphate. No chicory syrup. No sea salt.

BTW, the ingredients are listed on your SoNice. And at this convenient web page:
http://www.sonice-soyganic.com/Engli..._original.html

> It is also quite tasty.



I haven't tasted that particular brand, but I've tried many others. I don't find
most of them "tasty." One reason why sweeteners (such as the chicory syrup in
your SoNice -- hehe) are added is to mask the unpleasant aftertaste of soy.

> there is no "fidgeting around" with them,



Well, your initial response about "artificial flavour" has been debunked -- the
processing involves the use of acids and processing for hours on end. Your
second response about SoNice has also been demonstrated to be in error. It's
more than soybeans and water. It's a processed -- not natural -- food.

> other than this thing called "processing", which, as I am sure you are aware,

milk undergoes as well.


What kind of processing? Pasteurization -- rapid heating to kill germs.
Homogenization and/or skimming -- to keep any remaining dairy fats suspended.
Adding vitamins. Bottling. Compared to soy milk and soy sauce, milk is more
natural imho.

>>> Certainly more so than the stuff that goes into cow milk these days (milk,

preservatives, vitamins, stabilizers, etc).
>>
>>
>>
>> What preservatives and stabilizers are added to cow's milk?

>
>
> It varies from brand to brand.



Give me some examples, please.

> For my wife I buy UHT filtered milk because there are no chemical

preservatives. But local regular Parmalat milk does have preservaites.


Such as?

>>> http://www.sonice.ca/English/beverages_natural.html
>>>
>>> Before you go calling people ignorant, you should at least know what you

are talking about.
>>
>>
>> He does know what he's talking about.

>
>
> Not so, as "natural" soy milk does not have any sugars in it,



WTF do you call "chicory *SYRUP*"? From the SoNice website:
Chicory Syrup - A natural fructose syrup obtained from non-GMO chicory
root.

> or vitamins,



Oh yeah? From your SoNice label information:

Tricalcium Phosphate - provides calcium, along with phosphorous.

Magnesium Phosphate - provides magnesium, along with phosphorous.

Ascorbic Acid - Vitamin C, but it serves as a preservative.

Niacin - vitamin B3.

Zinc Gluconate - provides zinc; most veg-ns are zinc-deficient.

Pantothenate - vitamin B5.

Riboflavin - vitamin B2.

Vitamin B6.

Vitamin A.

Thiamine - B1.

Folacin - B9.

Vitamin D2.

Vitamin B12.


What was your point again?

> or preservatives



Ascorbic acid.

> or stabalizers.



Carrageenan.

>>> Now if the discussion was about "plain", "original", vanilla, chocolate or

any other flavour, then you would be right. They start joining the "drink"
group and seriously start moving away from the 100% natural group
>>
>>
>> There's nothing "natural" about soy milk. It's an alternative -- a

substitute -- which mimics a natural food. Review the thread for past threads
dealing with inquiries about which soy milks, rice milks, nut milks, etc., taste
*just* *like* milk. While you're at it, look for recipes and product
endorsements for meat substitutes. Why do people vegans make and buy products
that taste just like "dead flesh" if "dead flesh" is so off-putting to vegans?
>
>
> Good question, why do they?



You tell me. I've been asking the question for a couple years. Nobody has the
balls to answer.

> I really cant answer that since it is not something that I do. I happen to

use soymilk both on my cereal because I like the taste (and I never liked the
state of milk, but that could also have been due to my lactose intolerance) and
in baking. Do I use meat substitutes? Rarely, and usually when I am cooking
for omnivores.


Why don't you cook meat for them?

> I don't expect, or want, my soy milk or rice milk, etc, to taste "just like

milk". I never expected goat milk to taste like cow milk either. They are not
the same thing.
>
> From my experiences, people who look for and enjoy the substitutes the most

are people who have just switched to a vegetarian diet. These things do make
the transition much easier.
>
> BTW: There is nothing natural about humans drinking the milk of other animal

species.


Consider the following web page.
http://www.milk.mb.ca/Nutritin/myth/myths2.htm

> I can't think of another creature that does it.



So? Can you think of any other creature that farms and grows soy beans, much
less makes fake milk out of them? Or that adds vitamins, salt, sweetener,
stabilizers, etc., to soy milk? No, neither can I.

> While we are on the topic of "natural".



Well, I hope you've learned from my reply that real milk is less processed than
soy milk. Real dairy is a more natural product than soy milk. Read a real milk
label: milk, vitamin A, vitamin D. It's flash pasteurized, cooled, skimmed
and/or homogenized, bottled, and that's it. It's not boiled for hours like soy
beans are. Contains no preservatives like ascorbic acid. No sweeteners like
chicory syrup. No stabilizers like carrageenan (seaweed). No salt. No other
vitamins and minerals -- it's already rich in calcium and B12.

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/chd/FoodLab...l-skimmilk.gif

  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick etter
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why I like soy milk


"BlueHeron" > wrote in message
. ..
>
>
> Common Man wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:41:32 GMT, usual suspect >
> > wrote:

>
> >>>>I must respectfully ask, What's "natural" about fake milk made of

boiled
> >>>>soybeans, sea salt, sweetener, stabilizers, and some added vitamins?
> >>>>=================
> >>>
> >>>LOL Great question, Usual....
> >>>
> >>>Ah, the ignorance of vegans knows no bounds, does it?

>
> Which is pretty funny, considering that at least in Canada, "natural"
> flavour is simply soybean and water, which, imho is perfectly natural.
> Certainly more so than the stuff that goes into cow milk these days
> (milk, preservatives, vitamins, stabilizers, etc).
>
> http://www.sonice.ca/English/beverages_natural.html
>
> Before you go calling people ignorant, you should at least know what you
> are talking about.

==================
Maybe you should take your own advice stupid. Learn how to use your
computer and reply to the person that actually wrote what your spewing
about.
The fact remains that the *vegan* products we're talking about are far from
natural. The example you cited is not the whole truth. You can get meats
without any additives added to the cow, or the meat afterwords. You cannot
get your substitues without mono-culture farming. Again, farming is not
'natural'. Filling the fields with posions is hardly what I would call
anything near 'natural'.



>
> Now if the discussion was about "plain", "original", vanilla, chocolate
> or any other flavour, then you would be right. They start joining the
> "drink" group and seriously start moving away from the 100% natural group
>
> Cheers,
>
> -- Blue



  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
rick etter
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why I like soy milk


"Common Man" <not.public@> wrote in message
s.com...
> On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 15:18:50 GMT, usual suspect >
> wrote:
>
> >Common Man wrote:
> >>>>>>>I've never tried the plain flavor. I usually drink vanilla and

sometimes
> >>>>>>>chocolate.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>plain flavor is neutral tasting-not as yummy as the other flavors-
> >>>>>>personally I like variety-my wife is a purist-natural less
> >>>>
> >>>>ingredients...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>I must respectfully ask, What's "natural" about fake milk made of

boiled
> >>>>>soybeans, sea salt, sweetener, stabilizers, and some added vitamins?
> >>>>>=================
> >>>>
> >>>>LOL Great question, Usual....
> >>>>
> >>>>Ah, the ignorance of vegans knows no bounds, does it?
> >>>
> >>>It's pretty funny sometimes. We have a "hippie" health food store here

that
> >>>sells the following product (link below) up front at the cash register.

I
> >>>noticed the packaging and started laughing. The cashier wanted to know

what was
> >>>so funny, so I pointed to the part about it being "all natural." I

asked her
> >>>what was so natural about making soybeans taste just like real jerky.

She wasn't
> >>>amused. Those people never are.
> >>>
> >>>http://www.veganessentials.com/catal...s-jerquee-.htm
> >>
> >>
> >> Don't many if not most vegans detest the idea of eating meat?

> >
> >Supposedly, yet they seek out fake meat products.

>
> Which makes absolutely no sense to me. If the idea of eating meat is
> offensive, then why would they want to eat vegan burgers or sausages
> meant to look and taste like meat products?
> ========================

Because what they really have is only a simple rule for their simple minds,
'eat no meat.' They carry it no further than that. They do no research
into their own foods to determine which 'vegan' foods cause the most/least
death and suffering. For them, it's enough to believe that eating meat
automatically causes more death and suffering, despite the fact that it
doesn't.


> >> If so, then wouldn't they find such a product offensive?

> >
> >I've taken a lot of crap from them for pointing out their hypocrisy.
> >
> > Most vegans, even those who self-righteously affix the
> > sanctimonious qualifier "ethical" to their brand of veganism, reject the
> > truly low-impact alternatives which are really nothing but matters of
> > self-sufficiency (gardening, etc.). The fact that they purchase analogs
> > and other products show they (a) contribute to "cruelty" in farming and
> > (b) really haven't lost their taste (and preference!) for consuming
> > animal flesh.
> > -- yours truly, http://snipurl.com/6uyr
> >
> >And from a lengthier post that addressed the same issue regarding a

British
> >vegan restaurant that through a family out for feeding a baby some meat:
> >
> > If the smell and taste of "rotting animals" is so bloody ****ing
> > offensive, why does that restaurant offer fake meat products like vegan
> > sausages, "nut" roasts, and other such products?
> > http://www.rendezvous.co.uk/
> >
> > Take a look at how many veg-ns demand faux meat products, and how many
> > of them consider things better now that such products are widely
> > available AND they taste just like stinking, rotting flesh.
> >
> > "Finally there is a product vegetarians can SIZZLE on an outdoor grill
> > OR cook in the comfort of the kitchen !"
> > http://www.tofurky.com/products.htm

>
> A great example of what we're talking about. "Certified vegan"
> products all made to look and taste like the very meat products they
> are supposed to dread so much.
>
> > '"Finally, vegetarians have a bona fide holiday centerpiece that is all
> > their own. They don't have to settle for second best anymore" was how
> > one satisfied customer described it.'
> > http://www.tofurky.com/tofurky/default.htm
> >
> > Why is it unacceptable to feed a child real meat while everyone else in
> > the restaurant is eating stuff formulated to look, taste, and feel like
> > real meat?
> >
> > Address why it's okay to eat stuff that's supposed to taste JUST LIKE
> > dead cows, chickens, fish, etc.... What does that tell us about the
> > phony people who eat phony animal-flavored foods? ****ing hypocrites.
> > -- yours truly, http://snipurl.com/6uyq
> >
> >They've yet to address my questions on this matter over a period of a

couple
> >years since I started asking them.

>
> Makes you wonder, doesn't it?





  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
Rubystars
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why I like soy milk


"tamale caliente" > wrote in message
<snip>
> There's nothing "natural" about soy milk. It's an alternative -- a

substitute --
> which mimics a natural food. Review the thread for past threads dealing

with
> inquiries about which soy milks, rice milks, nut milks, etc., taste *just*
> *like* milk. While you're at it, look for recipes and product endorsements

for
> meat substitutes. Why do people vegans make and buy products that taste

just
> like "dead flesh" if "dead flesh" is so off-putting to vegans?


Soy milk, almond milk, rice milk, etc. are legitimate foods in their own
right. It's true that they're often used as substitutes for cow's milk, but
that doesn't mean that they're "unnatural." I drink milk, sometimes. I use
milk for recipes that call for milk, and I use soy milk for other things.

-Rubystars


  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
William Hershman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why I like soy milk


"Common Man" <not.public@> wrote in message
s.com...
> On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:41:32 GMT, usual suspect >
> wrote:
>
> >http://www.veganessentials.com/catal...s-jerquee-.htm

>
> Don't many if not most vegans detest the idea of eating meat? If so,
> then wouldn't they find such a product offensive?
>
>


I can't speak for all, but I don't detest the idea of eating meat, I just
don't eat meat.


  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why I like soy milk

Common Man wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>I've never tried the plain flavor. I usually drink vanilla and sometimes
>>>>>>>>>>chocolate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>plain flavor is neutral tasting-not as yummy as the other flavors-
>>>>>>>>>personally I like variety-my wife is a purist-natural less
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>ingredients...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I must respectfully ask, What's "natural" about fake milk made of boiled
>>>>>>>>soybeans, sea salt, sweetener, stabilizers, and some added vitamins?
>>>>>>>>=================
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>LOL Great question, Usual....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Ah, the ignorance of vegans knows no bounds, does it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It's pretty funny sometimes. We have a "hippie" health food store here that
>>>>>>sells the following product (link below) up front at the cash register. I
>>>>>>noticed the packaging and started laughing. The cashier wanted to know what was
>>>>>>so funny, so I pointed to the part about it being "all natural." I asked her
>>>>>>what was so natural about making soybeans taste just like real jerky. She wasn't
>>>>>>amused. Those people never are.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.veganessentials.com/catal...s-jerquee-.htm
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Don't many if not most vegans detest the idea of eating meat?
>>>>
>>>>Supposedly, yet they seek out fake meat products.
>>>
>>>Which makes absolutely no sense to me. If the idea of eating meat is
>>>offensive, then why would they want to eat vegan burgers or sausages
>>>meant to look and taste like meat products?

>>
>>Ask the vegans who crave them. I've been asking them for a couple years and they
>>won't tell me.

>
>
> Perhaps they still lust for the forbidden animal flesh, but the God of
> Political Correctness forbids them to admit it? ;-)


I have already leveled that accusation. It has been met by their silence or, in
rare instances, by contempt for questioning their dogma.

>>>>>If so, then wouldn't they find such a product offensive?
>>>>
>>>>I've taken a lot of crap from them for pointing out their hypocrisy.
>>>>
>>>> Most vegans, even those who self-righteously affix the
>>>> sanctimonious qualifier "ethical" to their brand of veganism, reject the
>>>> truly low-impact alternatives which are really nothing but matters of
>>>> self-sufficiency (gardening, etc.). The fact that they purchase analogs
>>>> and other products show they (a) contribute to "cruelty" in farming and
>>>> (b) really haven't lost their taste (and preference!) for consuming
>>>> animal flesh.
>>>> -- yours truly, http://snipurl.com/6uyr
>>>>
>>>>And from a lengthier post that addressed the same issue regarding a British
>>>>vegan restaurant that through a family out for feeding a baby some meat:
>>>>
>>>> If the smell and taste of "rotting animals" is so bloody ****ing
>>>> offensive, why does that restaurant offer fake meat products like vegan
>>>> sausages, "nut" roasts, and other such products?
>>>> http://www.rendezvous.co.uk/
>>>>
>>>> Take a look at how many veg-ns demand faux meat products, and how many
>>>> of them consider things better now that such products are widely
>>>> available AND they taste just like stinking, rotting flesh.
>>>>
>>>> "Finally there is a product vegetarians can SIZZLE on an outdoor grill
>>>> OR cook in the comfort of the kitchen !"
>>>> http://www.tofurky.com/products.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>A great example of what we're talking about. "Certified vegan"
>>>products all made to look and taste like the very meat products they
>>>are supposed to dread so much.

>>
>>The irony is that more animals are killed in the course of growing soy and wheat
>>for such products ("tofurkey") than would die if they were to eat one real
>>turkey. The dead turkey on the table is one animal death. How many mice, rats,
>>birds, snakes, etc., are killed in planting, applying pesticides to, harvesting,
>>transporting, and storing soy and wheat? They don't care about all those
>>animals, they just stuff their pie holes with fake dead turkey and fake hot dogs
>>and fake burgers and fake jerky and fake sandwich meats on the false assumption
>>that they're doing something to help animals. They're full of shit.

>
>
> Not to mention all the wildlife habitat destroyed by such farming.
>
>
>
>>>> '"Finally, vegetarians have a bona fide holiday centerpiece that is all
>>>> their own. They don’t have to settle for second best anymore" was how
>>>> one satisfied customer described it.'
>>>> http://www.tofurky.com/tofurky/default.htm
>>>>
>>>> Why is it unacceptable to feed a child real meat while everyone else in
>>>> the restaurant is eating stuff formulated to look, taste, and feel like
>>>> real meat?
>>>>
>>>> Address why it's okay to eat stuff that's supposed to taste JUST LIKE
>>>> dead cows, chickens, fish, etc.... What does that tell us about the
>>>> phony people who eat phony animal-flavored foods? ****ing hypocrites.
>>>> -- yours truly, http://snipurl.com/6uyq
>>>>
>>>>They've yet to address my questions on this matter over a period of a couple
>>>>years since I started asking them.
>>>
>>>Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

>>
>>Not really. Their agenda is pretty obvious, and their realities never match
>>their rhetoric. It's not about compassion for animals, it's about hatred of
>>humans. The "animals" are a diversion for their perverse misanthropy. Read back
>>in the Google archives of this group and see how many "compassionate vegans"
>>have wished harm upon meat eaters and those who favor animal testing. Maybe Rick
>>has kept count of all the heart attacks wished upon him. On second thought, he
>>probably lost track if he ever did that.

>
> I would think that people so concerned about saving the lives of
> animals would also be concerned with human life. After all, we're
> animals too.


You'll find a direct correlation between one's views with respect to animal
rights and compassion for humans. Those who are AR extremists hate humans with a
perverse passion. Those who are mildly pro-AR tend to be a little more tolerant
of their fellow man, though their hatred remains hatred. Most ARAs and vegans
have anti-social disorders which underly their politics and which always
masquerade their contempt for man with a veneer of compassion for animals; from
my interactions with so many of them, I doubt that's the only mental illness
which affects them in the aggregate.

Both sects (the real extremists and the lesser-extremists), though, estrange man
from Nature in their worldview. They deem man to be bad, evil, a force of
destruction, and ruthless slayer of other species. They deem animals good,
peaceable, and at one with nature. Or more simply summarized, "Man bad, animals
good." It's a naïve worldview straight out of paganism (if not Disney), where
the lions have already lain down with the lambs and where the tigers won't eat
us if we dont eat the tigers. IOW, they're also out of touch with reality (which
is one reason why I suspect AR/veganism are symptoms of deeper mental illness;
perhaps it will one day be used diagnostically as a syndrome capturing those who
are anti-social, out of touch with reality, and who have a peculiar eating
disorder -- the latter being orthorexia).

  #24 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why I like soy milk

Rubystars wrote:

> "tamale caliente" > wrote in message
> <snip>
>
>>There's nothing "natural" about soy milk. It's an alternative -- a

> substitute --
>>which mimics a natural food. Review the thread for past threads dealing

> with
>>inquiries about which soy milks, rice milks, nut milks, etc., taste *just*
>>*like* milk. While you're at it, look for recipes and product endorsements

> for
>>meat substitutes. Why do people vegans make and buy products that taste

> just
>>like "dead flesh" if "dead flesh" is so off-putting to vegans?

>
> Soy milk, almond milk, rice milk, etc. are legitimate foods in their own
> right.


I don't think that's in dispute.

> It's true that they're often used as substitutes for cow's milk, but
> that doesn't mean that they're "unnatural."


How much processing of foods is allowed before you dispense with calling it
"natural"? I've boiled soy beans before, and they don't look like milk. They
sure as heck don't taste like it, either. A lot of processing is done to make
soy milks palatable. The amount of processing goes far beyond flash pasteurizing
it, skimming and/or homogenizing it, adding a couple vitamins, and bottling it.

"Natural" soy milk would be as BlueHeron represented SoNice (apparently without
reading the label): soy beans and water. Instead, it has salt, sweetener,
stabilizer, and vitamins. Real milk doesn't have a "shake well before using"
label on it, and it's not even stabilized with carrageenan like soy milks.

> I drink milk, sometimes. I use
> milk for recipes that call for milk, and I use soy milk for other things.


Okay. That doesn't mean soy milk is natural, much less that it's not a processed
food.

  #25 (permalink)   Report Post  
usual suspect
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why I like soy milk

William Hershman wrote:

>>
>>>http://www.veganessentials.com/catal...s-jerquee-.htm

>>
>>Don't many if not most vegans detest the idea of eating meat? If so,
>>then wouldn't they find such a product offensive?
>>

>
> I can't speak for all, but I don't detest the idea of eating meat, I just
> don't eat meat.


You know that's atypical of the activists who've proliferated in this group in
the past. Why do you not eat meat?



  #26 (permalink)   Report Post  
nemo
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why I like soy milk

I don't bother with soya milk much now, but my favourite used to be Plamil
with cocoa and carob flour added, with a little muscovado sugar.

When I went touring on my motorcycle, a huge white BMW R75/6 BTW, I used to
take some in a crown-cap beer bottle with a plastic re-seal on and I was
sitting on the bike once in a layby drinking this when the police pulled up
and wouldn't believe it wasn't beer.

They wouldn't be told and refused to try it so in the end I poured some on
the ground and said "There! Does that look like beer?" They agreed but
looked *very* disappointed. I suppose I was lucky they didn't do me out of
spite for litter for pouring it onto the ground!

Happy daze!

Now you know the dangers of drinking soya milk! )

Nemo

Common Man <not.public@> wrote in message
s.com...
> On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:41:32 GMT, usual suspect >
> wrote:
>
> >rick etter wrote:
> >>><...>
> >>>
> >>>>>I've never tried the plain flavor. I usually drink vanilla and

sometimes
> >>>>>chocolate.
> >>>>
> >>>>plain flavor is neutral tasting-not as yummy as the other flavors-
> >>>>personally I like variety-my wife is a purist-natural less
> >>
> >> ingredients...
> >>
> >>>I must respectfully ask, What's "natural" about fake milk made of

boiled
> >>>soybeans, sea salt, sweetener, stabilizers, and some added vitamins?
> >>>=================
> >>
> >> LOL Great question, Usual....
> >>
> >> Ah, the ignorance of vegans knows no bounds, does it?

> >
> >It's pretty funny sometimes. We have a "hippie" health food store here

that
> >sells the following product (link below) up front at the cash register. I
> >noticed the packaging and started laughing. The cashier wanted to know

what was
> >so funny, so I pointed to the part about it being "all natural." I asked

her
> >what was so natural about making soybeans taste just like real jerky. She

wasn't
> >amused. Those people never are.
> >
> >http://www.veganessentials.com/catal...s-jerquee-.htm

>
> Don't many if not most vegans detest the idea of eating meat? If so,
> then wouldn't they find such a product offensive?
>
>



  #27 (permalink)   Report Post  
nemo
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why I like soy milk


rick etter > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Common Man" <not.public@> wrote in message
> s.com...
> > On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:41:32 GMT, usual suspect >
> > wrote:
> >
> > >rick etter wrote:
> > >>><...>
> > >>>
> > >>>>>I've never tried the plain flavor. I usually drink vanilla and

> sometimes
> > >>>>>chocolate.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>plain flavor is neutral tasting-not as yummy as the other flavors-
> > >>>>personally I like variety-my wife is a purist-natural less
> > >>
> > >> ingredients...
> > >>
> > >>>I must respectfully ask, What's "natural" about fake milk made of

> boiled
> > >>>soybeans, sea salt, sweetener, stabilizers, and some added vitamins?
> > >>>=================
> > >>
> > >> LOL Great question, Usual....
> > >>
> > >> Ah, the ignorance of vegans knows no bounds, does it?
> > >
> > >It's pretty funny sometimes. We have a "hippie" health food store here

> that
> > >sells the following product (link below) up front at the cash register.

I
> > >noticed the packaging and started laughing. The cashier wanted to know

> what was
> > >so funny, so I pointed to the part about it being "all natural." I

asked
> her
> > >what was so natural about making soybeans taste just like real jerky.

She
> wasn't
> > >amused. Those people never are.
> > >
> > >http://www.veganessentials.com/catal...s-jerquee-.htm

> >
> > Don't many if not most vegans detest the idea of eating meat? If so,
> > then wouldn't they find such a product offensive?
> > ============================

> No, they inaccurately believe that animals only die when real meat is

eaten.
> Have you not seen the number of meat substitutes that are on the market

that
> veg*ns still love to eat? So obviously for all of them it's not the taste
> or texture of meat that they dislike. The real hoot about all that is

that
> they then claim the fake meats are an 'all natural' food stuff. As if you
> could really find any 'naturally' occuring tofu paste or tvp just lying in
> the fields. The best part of all this is that if you really get down to

it,
> no mono-cultured crop is 'natural' at all. No where have I ever seen
> fields of cabbages spontaneously appear. Their whole belief system is

based
> on stupidity and ignorance.
>

Fan queue. And slagging off a whole huge group of good, well-meaning people
based on your misunderstanding of one word isn't?


  #28 (permalink)   Report Post  
Rubystars
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why I like soy milk


"usual suspect" > wrote in message
> Okay. That doesn't mean soy milk is natural, much less that it's not a

processed
> food.


Ok


  #29 (permalink)   Report Post  
BlueHeron
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why I like soy milk



Ramon del Gato wrote:

> BlueHeron wrote:
>
> >>>>>>> I must respectfully ask, What's "natural" about fake milk made

> of boiled
> >>>>>>> soybeans, sea salt, sweetener, stabilizers, and some added

> vitamins?
> >>>>>>> =================
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> LOL Great question, Usual....
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ah, the ignorance of vegans knows no bounds, does it?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Which is pretty funny, considering that at least in Canada,

> "natural" flavour is simply soybean and water, which, imho is perfectly
> natural.
> >>
> >>
> >> What's natural about hydrolyzing soy beans to make them taste like

> "natural flavour"? Soy beans are pretty bland on their own which is why
> most people are put off by them. It's all the fidgeting around with them
> in kitchens and labs that makes them taste "meaty."
> >
> >
> > Ah yes, add water to something is so un-natural. Give me a break!

>
>
> Apparently you don't understand that more than water is added to soy to
> make HVP, aka "artificial flavor," much less that it's a highly
> processed food.

<snip>

Perhaps if you actually knew what the words that you were using meant,
you would know that "hydrolysis" is defined as "a chemical reaction in
which a compound reacts with water, resulting in its decomposition or
alteration."

A chemical reaction ideed. The mixture of water and soy in this case,
to change the composition of the soy.


> Most soy sauces are made of hydrolyzed soy rather than of lengthier
> fermentation. How is it made? Glad you asked.


Actually I didn't. There is a reason I only use tamari.

> Is that all? That's not what the label says:
> Filtered Water, Organic Whole Soybeans, Chicory Syrup, Tricalcium
> Phosphate, Sea Salt, Carrageenan, Magnesium Phosphate, Ascorbic Acid,
> Niacin, Zinc Gluconate, Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Vitamin B6,
> Vitamin A,
> Thiamine, Folacin, Vitamin D2, Vitamin B12.
>
> Carrageenan is also known as Irish moss. It's a sea weed used as a
> stabilizer. I read the labels on milk cartons at the store while ago.
> The ingredient list was much shorter: milk, vitamin A, vitamin D. No
> stabilizers like carrageenan. No tricalcium phosphate or magnesium
> phosphate. No chicory syrup. No sea salt.
>
> BTW, the ingredients are listed on your SoNice. And at this convenient
> web page:
> http://www.sonice-soyganic.com/Engli..._original.html


Ah, I am so glad that you can read. Now only if you were smart enough
to realize that the discussion has been about NATURAL soymilk. NOT
original.

Try this one:

http://www.sonice-soyganic.com/Engli...s_natural.html

> > It is also quite tasty.

>
>
> I haven't tasted that particular brand, but I've tried many others. I
> don't find most of them "tasty." One reason why sweeteners (such as the
> chicory syrup in your SoNice -- hehe) are added is to mask the
> unpleasant aftertaste of soy.


So obviously soy milk is not for you. Regular milk makes me rather
sick, obviously it is not for me. Great! We have choices.

> > there is no "fidgeting around" with them,

>
>
> Well, your initial response about "artificial flavour" has been debunked
> -- the processing involves the use of acids and processing for hours on
> end. Your second response about SoNice has also been demonstrated to be
> in error. It's more than soybeans and water. It's a processed -- not
> natural -- food.


Again, if only you could actually follow the discussion. It has alwasy
been about Natural flavour. I have agreed with you that Original
flavour, vanilla, chocolate and the rest are not quite natural. Nice
try though.

<snip a waste of time about the wrong product>

>
> Well, I hope you've learned from my reply that real milk is less
> processed than soy milk. Real dairy is a more natural product than soy
> milk. Read a real milk label: milk, vitamin A, vitamin D. It's flash
> pasteurized, cooled, skimmed and/or homogenized, bottled, and that's it.
> It's not boiled for hours like soy beans are. Contains no preservatives
> like ascorbic acid. No sweeteners like chicory syrup. No stabilizers
> like carrageenan (seaweed). No salt. No other vitamins and minerals --
> it's already rich in calcium and B12.
>
> http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/chd/FoodLab...l-skimmilk.gif


I will have a look for you the next time I am at the store. But in the
mean time, you actually have not showed me anything other than you lack
of being able to follow what is being said, and your abililty to spout
long technical jargon about how adding water to something changes it's
chmical composition.

Congratulations.
  #30 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jonathan Ball
 
Posts: n/a
Default Why I like soy milk

Common Man wrote:

> On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 12:14:26 GMT, usual suspect >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Common Man wrote:
>>


>>>>>Which makes absolutely no sense to me. If the idea of eating meat is
>>>>>offensive, then why would they want to eat vegan burgers or sausages
>>>>>meant to look and taste like meat products?
>>>>
>>>>Ask the vegans who crave them. I've been asking them for a couple years and they
>>>>won't tell me.
>>>
>>>
>>>Perhaps they still lust for the forbidden animal flesh, but the God of
>>>Political Correctness forbids them to admit it? ;-)

>>
>>I have already leveled that accusation. It has been met by their silence or, in
>>rare instances, by contempt for questioning their dogma.

>
>
> Being vegan (in some cases at least) is sounding more and more like a
> cult belief system.


It very much is. It starts with a primitive belief -
"it is wrong for humans to kill animals" - that
"vegans" can't support rhetorically, and BY WHICH they
do not abide (do a Google Groups search in this
newsgroup and especially talk.politics.animals and
alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian for "collateral deaths").

From there, it degenerates into a silly consumption
*rule* that is devoid of any ethical principle: "do
not consume animal parts". They get to this rule by a
belief in an argument that contains a classic logical
fallacy. The fallacy is Denying the Antecedent. In
their case, it takes this form:

If I consume animal parts, I cause animals to suffer.

I do not consume animal parts;

therefore, I do not cause animals to suffer.

This is clearly fallacious and false. See "collateral
deaths" as mentioned above.

The truly cult-like aspect of "veganism" comes about
from their obsessive quest to ensure that the second
statement of the fallacy is true. One former poster in
this group, a woman in England nick-named "Ronny",
heard a vague, unresearched rumor that the dark brine
in canned black olives contains squid ink, so she
stopped eating the olives. This, of course, followed
who-knows-how-many years of devouring them WITHOUT A CARE.

I have referred to this bizarre, cultish aspect of
"veganism" as "The Irrational Search for Micrograms of
Animal Parts", and have posted a FAQ about it in
several newsgroups; I usually shorten it on subsequent
reference to the Search for Micrograms. This search
illustrates the moral confusion of "vegans" at its
best, which is really to say at its worst: the
"vegans" obsess over the motes of animal parts that
they might eat, while ignoring the beams of dead
animals (collateral deaths) that they *don't* eat;
those animals are left, chopped and shredded, to rot in
the fields.

Finally, the cultish behavior of "vegans" is
illustrated when you attempt to confront them with the
grotesque inconsistencies of their belief system. They
scream, they call you a "troll", and they make a lot of
noise to avoid having to understand the problem.

> [...]
>>>>>Makes you wonder, doesn't it?
>>>>
>>>>Not really. Their agenda is pretty obvious, and their realities never match
>>>>their rhetoric. It's not about compassion for animals, it's about hatred of
>>>>humans. The "animals" are a diversion for their perverse misanthropy. Read back
>>>>in the Google archives of this group and see how many "compassionate vegans"
>>>>have wished harm upon meat eaters and those who favor animal testing. Maybe Rick
>>>>has kept count of all the heart attacks wished upon him. On second thought, he
>>>>probably lost track if he ever did that.
>>>
>>>I would think that people so concerned about saving the lives of
>>>animals would also be concerned with human life. After all, we're
>>>animals too.

>>
>>You'll find a direct correlation between one's views with respect to animal
>>rights and compassion for humans. Those who are AR extremists hate humans with a
>>perverse passion.

>
>
> Even though they are human themselves? Bizarre.


There is, alas, a long and inglorious philosophical
history of self-hatred in western civilization. I'm
not familiar enough with eastern philosophies to know
if it occurs there as well, but it might, as I think it
could be an aspect of human nature. In (relatively)
recent western civ, it shows up most prominently with
the pernicious view of man as "fallen", i.e. the fable
of the Garden of Eden. I do not subscribe to that view.

Christianity, at least, has a *principled* basis for a
belief in how man can get out of his fallen state; as I
do not accept the view of man as fallen to begin with
(and also reject out-of-hand any belief in supernatural
beings), I can not be a Christian. But a principle at
least is really at the basis of the religion.

"veganism", on the other hand, is effectively
principle-free. It starts with a principle - "it is
wrong to harm animals" - but that is abandoned
immediately in favor of a silly consumption rule:
"don't consume animal parts". We see, above, how
utterly inadequate that is.


>>Those who are mildly pro-AR tend to be a little more tolerant
>>of their fellow man, though their hatred remains hatred. Most ARAs and vegans
>>have anti-social disorders which underly their politics and which always
>>masquerade their contempt for man with a veneer of compassion for animals; from
>>my interactions with so many of them, I doubt that's the only mental illness
>>which affects them in the aggregate.

>
>
> I've only had limited RL contact with vegans, and from my experience
> they seem to be far, far, left in their politics.


Have you been reading my material already?! I have
LONG maintained, here and in t.p.a. and a.a.e.v., that
"veganism" is a marker, a signal, for extreme leftism.
Not all leftists are "vegan", but all "vegans" are
leftists.

> They seem to think
> that most of humanity is too stupid to make decisions for themselves
> and need an "elite" (them) to tell the rest of us what to do.


Exactly so.

>
>
>>Both sects (the real extremists and the lesser-extremists), though, estrange man
>>from Nature in their worldview.

>
> Which is odd since we are in fact, for better or worse, part of
> nature.
>
>
>>They deem man to be bad, evil, a force of
>>destruction, and ruthless slayer of other species. They deem animals good,
>>peaceable, and at one with nature. Or more simply summarized, "Man bad, animals
>>good." It's a naïve worldview straight out of paganism (if not Disney), where
>>the lions have already lain down with the lambs and where the tigers won't eat
>>us if we dont eat the tigers.

>
>
> I take it many if not most of them have never spent any real time out
> in the wild actually observing nature.


"veganism" is predominantly a trendy URBAN movement.
They don't know anything *real* about nature. Nature,
to them, is Sierra Club literature, World Wildlife Fund
appeals for money, and the Discovery Channel. Perhaps
a small handful of them go out for day hikes in
municipal parks, or close-to-the-city national and
state parks.

If you stick around long enough, you'll see some
"vegans" assert that if people had to see animals being
slaughtered, they would all become vegetarian. In
fact, in the "golden age" of farming they romanticize,
when a much larger percentage of people lived and
worked on farms, there was virtually no vegetarianism
in rural settings, and there still isn't. People saw
the slaughter of animals as routine, even if they
didn't kill large animals, e.g. cattle and hogs,
themselves. There probably NEVER was a farm wife who
didn't kill a chicken for dinner, and NEVER a farm kid
who didn't witness it.

Look in t.p.a. and a.a.e.v. for a specious "FAQ" by a
marxist "vegan" named Michael Cerkowski, called "Common
Misconceptions About ARAs". It shows that "vegans" at
least can learn to manipulate bales of straw, because
it is a little squad of strawmen, start to finish. One
of his is: "The 'ara' as clueless urbanite". Here's
what he says:

Another common myth about animal rights
activists
(that conflicts somewhat with the previously
mentioned
one) is that we are all city dwellers, with no real
experience of the natural world, and possessing
opinions
that are shaped more by the movie "Bambi" than by
reality.
Every person, and every movement, has a unique
mythology.
For every ARA who believes that hunters are all
cruel,
mindless brutes, there is probably a hunter who thinks
that (s)he is a carnivore, complete with fangs for
killing. Both groups need to examine our mythologies.

Many ARAs live in rural areas, and many have
direct
experience with wildlife and with nature. Some of
us have
formal training in fields like biology and wildlife
rehabilitation, and some of us are even former
hunters.
The 'city dweller' tag is a double-edged weapon, as
many
hunters also live in urban and suburban areas. If a
hunter
who drives to a wild area to hunt can be considered a
repository of knowledge about nature, then an ARA who
drives to wild areas to hike and camp deserves the
same
consideration.


I have torn this strawman to shreds many times in
t.p.a. and a.a.e.v., but the cultist Cerkowski refuses
to respond. BTW, Cerkowski KNEW this was a polemically
provocative strawman as he was developing his twitty
"faq", because he made a great pretense of asking for
"input" both from "aras" and from opponents of "ar".
He practically giggled with glee when opponents told
him what was wrong with various pieces of it, including
this one: the more opposition something generated, the
more he knew he had a "gotcha" with which to provoke
the opponents. He never was interested in an honest
examination of any "misconceptions"; he was just
looking for some fresh propaganda, and co-opted the
opponents of "ar" into helping him develop it.

>
>
>>IOW, they're also out of touch with reality (which
>>is one reason why I suspect AR/veganism are symptoms of deeper mental illness;
>>perhaps it will one day be used diagnostically as a syndrome capturing those who
>>are anti-social, out of touch with reality, and who have a peculiar eating
>>disorder -- the latter being orthorexia).


Do a Google search on "orthorexia", sometimes referred
to as "orthorexia nervosa" by the medical doctor (and
admitted former orthorexic) who coined the term, Steven
Bratman. There are over 3000 references to it. The
term is not yet a DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statistical
Manual of Mental Disorders) accepted diagnosis, but I
predict it will become one. Bratman's own page on the
disorder is http://www.orthorexia.com. There's a
wealth of information about it.

I've crossposted this to t.p.a. and a.a.e.v., in order
to get one or two of the most notorious "ar" trolls
over there to begin lying and dissembling. I'll
address their DELIBERATELY dishonest crap when - *not*
if, but when - they do.



  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jonathan Ball
 
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Default Why I like soy milk

William Hershman wrote:

> "Common Man" <not.public@> wrote in message
> s.com...
>
>>On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:41:32 GMT, usual suspect >
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>http://www.veganessentials.com/catal...s-jerquee-.htm

>>
>>Don't many if not most vegans detest the idea of eating meat? If so,
>>then wouldn't they find such a product offensive?
>>
>>

>
>


Hello, Bill.

> I can't speak for all, but I don't detest the idea of eating meat, I just
> don't eat meat.


That makes you (mostly) a vegetarian, not a "vegan".

  #32 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jonathan Ball
 
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Default Why I like soy milk

Common Man wrote:

> On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 14:19:13 +0100, "nemo" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>I don't bother with soya milk much now, but my favourite used to be Plamil
>>with cocoa and carob flour added, with a little muscovado sugar.
>>
>>When I went touring on my motorcycle, a huge white BMW R75/6 BTW,

>
>
> Nice bike!


I'd like to get one or two of those older 'R' series
BMWs, but business will need to pick up for me first,
as much so I can buy a house with a bigger garage as so
I can buy the bikes themselves.

For now, I content myself with my one 1992 K75-S.

>
>
>>I used to
>>take some in a crown-cap beer bottle with a plastic re-seal on and I was
>>sitting on the bike once in a layby drinking this when the police pulled up
>>and wouldn't believe it wasn't beer.
>>
>>They wouldn't be told and refused to try it so in the end I poured some on
>>the ground and said "There! Does that look like beer?" They agreed but
>>looked *very* disappointed. I suppose I was lucky they didn't do me out of
>>spite for litter for pouring it onto the ground!

>
>
> A friend of mine ran into something similar many years ago. The local
> police where pulling over a lot of people suspecting that they were
> drinking and driving. So he filled some beer bottles with ginger ale
> and recapped them.
>
> Soon enough he got pulled over as you did, and he poured out the
> contents to prove it wasn't beer. The police officer wasn't amused in
> the least. My friend then threw the empty bottle onto the floor of
> the car. The police officer then proceeded to write him up for having
> an open container! The judge apparently had a sense of humor and
> threw it out.
>
>
>>Happy daze!
>>
>>Now you know the dangers of drinking soya milk! )
>>
>>Nemo

>
>
> [..]


  #33 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jonathan Ball
 
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Jonathan Ball wrote:

>>> IOW, they're also out of touch with reality (which is one reason why
>>> I suspect AR/veganism are symptoms of deeper mental illness; perhaps
>>> it will one day be used diagnostically as a syndrome capturing those
>>> who are anti-social, out of touch with reality, and who have a
>>> peculiar eating disorder -- the latter being orthorexia).

>
>
> Do a Google search on "orthorexia", sometimes referred to as "orthorexia
> nervosa" by the medical doctor (and admitted former orthorexic) who
> coined the term, Steven Bratman. There are over 3000 references to it.
> The term is not yet a DSM-IV (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of
> Mental Disorders) accepted diagnosis, but I predict it will become one.
> Bratman's own page on the disorder is http://www.orthorexia.com.
> There's a wealth of information about it.


I looked up some more information on Steven Bratman,
and while he still seems to have a lot of off-putting
"alternative" aspects to him, he nonetheless went to a
good accredited medical school (University of
California at Davis) and did his internship at a good
psychiatric clinic (Menninger). His credentials are in
order.

  #34 (permalink)   Report Post  
William Hershman
 
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"Common Man" <not.public@> wrote in message
s.com...
> On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 10:22:14 GMT, "William Hershman"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Common Man" <not.public@> wrote in message
> ws.com...
> >> On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:41:32 GMT, usual suspect >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >http://www.veganessentials.com/catal...s-jerquee-.htm
> >>
> >> Don't many if not most vegans detest the idea of eating meat? If so,
> >> then wouldn't they find such a product offensive?
> >>
> >>

> >
> >I can't speak for all, but I don't detest the idea of eating meat, I just
> >don't eat meat.

>
> There's nothing wrong with that in itself. But many seem to detest
> the idea of eating meat, yet eat vegan foods processed to look and
> even taste like meat. Seems to be hypocritical to me.


It certainly is. Why spend time looking for hypocrisy in others, when you
could probably find your own?


  #35 (permalink)   Report Post  
William Hershman
 
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"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> William Hershman wrote:
>
> >>
> >>>http://www.veganessentials.com/catal...s-jerquee-.htm
> >>
> >>Don't many if not most vegans detest the idea of eating meat? If so,
> >>then wouldn't they find such a product offensive?
> >>

> >
> > I can't speak for all, but I don't detest the idea of eating meat, I

just
> > don't eat meat.

>
> You know that's atypical of the activists who've proliferated in this

group in
> the past. Why do you not eat meat?
>




I don't like it. I feel better when I don't eat it. I still use leather.
I can put meat around my belly, just not in it.




  #36 (permalink)   Report Post  
William Hershman
 
Posts: n/a
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"Jonathan Ball" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> William Hershman wrote:
>
> > "Common Man" <not.public@> wrote in message
> > s.com...
> >
> >>On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:41:32 GMT, usual suspect >
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>http://www.veganessentials.com/catal...s-jerquee-.htm
> >>
> >>Don't many if not most vegans detest the idea of eating meat? If so,
> >>then wouldn't they find such a product offensive?
> >>
> >>

> >
> >

>
> Hello, Bill.
>
> > I can't speak for all, but I don't detest the idea of eating meat, I

just
> > don't eat meat.

>
> That makes you (mostly) a vegetarian, not a "vegan".


If I need to be labeled, then I'm really (mostly) a dickhead, but I'm not
concerned about what people call me. I guess I'm not really a vegan because
I only eat this way,,,I don't really concern myself with animal parts in my
clothes and such. I just prefer what many would call a vegan diet.
Unfortunately, "vegetarian" to most people means that cheese is OK, and I
don't like to eat cheese, so I tell people that my diet is vegan...which is
probably technically incorrect, but they usually know what I mean.


  #37 (permalink)   Report Post  
William Hershman
 
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"Jonathan Ball" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Common Man wrote:
>
>> I'd like to get one or two of those older 'R' series

> BMWs, but business will need to pick up for me first,
> as much so I can buy a house with a bigger garage as so
> I can buy the bikes themselves.
>
> For now, I content myself with my one 1992 K75-S.
>
> >
> >

Jon, I always pictured you as more of a 1200 guy, but now that I think about
it, that would probably be too much for your skinny lil' butt anyway.


  #38 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jonathan Ball
 
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Default Why I like soy milk

William Hershman wrote:

> "Jonathan Ball" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
>>William Hershman wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Common Man" <not.public@> wrote in message
news.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:41:32 GMT, usual suspect >
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>http://www.veganessentials.com/catal...s-jerquee-.htm
>>>>
>>>>Don't many if not most vegans detest the idea of eating meat? If so,
>>>>then wouldn't they find such a product offensive?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>

>>Hello, Bill.
>>
>>
>>>I can't speak for all, but I don't detest the idea of eating meat, I

>
> just
>
>>>don't eat meat.

>>
>>That makes you (mostly) a vegetarian, not a "vegan".

>
>
> If I need to be labeled, then I'm really (mostly) a dickhead


You are probably the ONLY person I've ever encountered
in a.f.v. who ISN'T a dickhead, Bill.

> but I'm not
> concerned about what people call me. I guess I'm not really a vegan because
> I only eat this way,,,I don't really concern myself with animal parts in my
> clothes and such. I just prefer what many would call a vegan diet.


Do you worry about whether or not sugar was refined
using bone char?

What about the black olives? That's a very revealing test.

> Unfortunately, "vegetarian" to most people means that cheese is OK, and I
> don't like to eat cheese, so I tell people that my diet is vegan...which is
> probably technically incorrect, but they usually know what I mean.
>
>


  #39 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jonathan Ball
 
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Default Why I like soy milk

William Hershman wrote:

> "Jonathan Ball" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
>>Common Man wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I'd like to get one or two of those older 'R' series

>>
>>BMWs, but business will need to pick up for me first,
>>as much so I can buy a house with a bigger garage as so
>>I can buy the bikes themselves.
>>
>>For now, I content myself with my one 1992 K75-S.
>>
>>
>>>

> Jon, I always pictured you as more of a 1200 guy


Oh, man, I would *love* a K1200. I've lusted over them
at the BMW dealer where I bought mine, but I just can't
afford one, and as the father of a young (3-1/2) boy, I
am beginning to think I shouldn't ride a motorcycle at all.

> but now that I think about
> it, that would probably be too much for your skinny lil' butt anyway.


Although the 1200s look huge (to me, anyway), I've sat
on them, and it didn't feel like something I couldn't
handle. I'm rather short, though - 5'6" - and on my
K75, I can't get both feet flat on the ground at a
stop. I usually just get one foot solidly on the
ground and leave the other on the peg.

Do you ride one?

  #40 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jonathan Ball
 
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Common Man wrote:

> On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 19:27:07 GMT, "William Hershman"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>"Common Man" <not.public@> wrote in message
ews.com...
>>
>>>On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 10:22:14 GMT, "William Hershman"
> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Common Man" <not.public@> wrote in message
anews.com...
>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:41:32 GMT, usual suspect >
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.veganessentials.com/catal...s-jerquee-.htm
>>>>>
>>>>>Don't many if not most vegans detest the idea of eating meat? If so,
>>>>>then wouldn't they find such a product offensive?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I can't speak for all, but I don't detest the idea of eating meat, I just
>>>>don't eat meat.
>>>
>>>There's nothing wrong with that in itself. But many seem to detest
>>>the idea of eating meat, yet eat vegan foods processed to look and
>>>even taste like meat. Seems to be hypocritical to me.

>>
>>It certainly is. Why spend time looking for hypocrisy in others, when you
>>could probably find your own?

>
>
> Because I'm not demanding that everyone eats meat. The ARAs on the
> other hand, are demanding that everyone doesn't eat meat. There lies
> the difference.


Exactly right, and it's a HUGE difference.

All we're demanding is that people keep their snouts
out of our lives, and other places where their snouts
don't belong.

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