"usual suspect" > wrote in message ...
<..>
> > What is wrong with getting B12 from lean meats?

Are You Vitamin B12 Deficient? (*emphasis added))

' Nearly two-fifths of the U.S. population may be flirting with
marginal vitamin B12 status-that is, if a careful look at nearly
3,000 men and women in the ongoing Framingham (Massachusetts)
Offspring Study is any indication. Researchers found that 39
percent of the volunteers have plasma B12 levels in the "low
normal" range-below 258 picomoles per liter (pmol/L).

While this is well above the currently accepted deficiency level
of 148 pmol/L, some people exhibit neurological symptoms at the
upper level of the deficiency range, explains study leader Katherine
L. Tucker. She is a nutritional epidemiologist at the Jean Mayer
USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts University
in Boston.

"I think there's a lot of undetected vitamin B12 deficiency out there,"
says Tucker. She noted that nearly 9 percent of the study population
fell below the current deficiency level. And more than 16 percent fell
below 185 pmol/L. "Many people may be deficient at this level," she
says. "There is some question as to what the clinical cutoff for deficiency
should be."

Deficiency can cause a type of anemia marked by fewer but larger
red blood cells. It can also cause walking and balance disturbances,
a loss of vibration sensation, confusion, and, in advanced cases, dementia.
The body requires B12 to make the protective coating surrounding
the nerves. So inadequate B12 can expose nerves to damage.

Tucker and colleagues wanted to get a sense of B12 levels spanning
the adult population because most previous studies have focused on
the elderly. That age group was thought to be at higher risk for deficiency.
The researchers also expected to find some connection between dietary
intake and plasma levels, even though other studies found no association.
Some of the results were surprising. The youngest group-the 26 to 49
year olds-had about the same B12 status as the oldest group-65 and
up. "We thought that low concentrations of B12 would increase with age,"
says Tucker. "But we saw a high prevalence of low B12 even among the
youngest group."

The good news is that for many people, eating more fortified cereals
and dairy products can improve B12 status almost as much as taking
supplements containing the vitamin. Supplement use dropped the
percentage of volunteers in the danger zone (plasma B12 below 185
pmol/L) from 20 percent to 8. Eating fortified cereals five or more times
a week or being among the highest third for dairy intake reduced, by
nearly half, the percentage of volunteers in that zone-from 23 and 24
percent, respectively, to 12 and 13 percent.

*The researchers found no association between plasma B12 and meat,
poultry, and fish intake, even though these foods supply the bulk of B12
in the diet. "It's not because people aren't eating enough meat," Tucker
says. "The vitamin isn't getting absorbed." The vitamin is tightly bound to
proteins in meat and dairy products and requires high acidity to cut it
loose. As we age, we lose the acid-secreting cells in the stomach. But
what causes poor absorption in younger adults? Tucker speculates that
the high use of antacids may contribute.* But why absorption from dairy
products appears to be better than from meats is a question that needs
more research. Fortified cereals are a different story. She says the vitamin
is sprayed on during processing and is "more like what we get in supplements."

-By Judy McBride, Agricultural Research Service Information Staff.
This research is part of Human Nutrition, an ARS National Program
(#107) described on the World Wide Web. Katherine L. Tucker is at
the Jean Mayer USDA-ARS Human Nutrition Research Center on
Aging at Tufts University, 711 Washington St., Boston, MA 02111;
phone (617) 556-3351, fax (617) 556-3344.
"Are You Vitamin B12 Deficient?" was published in the August 2000
issue of Agricultural Research magazine.

Had antibiotics? Eating conventionally grown cobalt-deficient produce?

> > heme iron ,
<..>
> Ipse dixit. Heme iron is more easily absorbed by humans than non-heme. One with
> an iron deficiency has no business on a veg-n diet because the excess phytates
> in such a diet will bind with non-heme iron and prevent it from being absorbed.

The Heme Iron Problem

Heme (blood) iron, cancer, and cardiovascular disease.
Iron encourages production of free radicals which can damage DNA
and presumably increase cancer risk. In a study of over 14,000 individuals,
high iron intake and high iron body stores were both positively linked to the
risk of colon cancer. Higher levels of iron were associated with higher
incidence of colon polyps, possible forerunners of colon tumors. However,
cancer patients themselves had low levels of stored iron, indicating that
cancer itself can deplete iron stores. [1]

Controversy has surrounded the question as to whether too much
iron in your diet raises your risk for heart disease. A new study from the
Harvard University School of Public Health brings new insight to the debate.
Lasting for 4 years, this research involved more than 50,000 male health
professionals. It was found that total iron intake was not associated with
heart disease risk. But the source of the iron was the principle factor.
High levels of heme iron raised risk for heart disease twofold. Heme iron
is the type of iron found in meat, chicken and fish.

Plant foods contain non-heme iron which appears to not be associated
with risk for heart attack. Traditionally, many nutritionists used to consider
non-heme iron to be inferior to the iron found in animal products, because
non-heme iron is somewhat less well absorbed. But new evidence suggests
that non-heme iron seems to be preferable.

When the body is low in iron, it can increase absorption of non-heme
iron, and it can reduce adsorption when it already has sufficient amounts.
The heme iron in meats tends to pass quickly right through the adsorption
mechanism, thus entering the blood stream whether it is needed or not.
Since vegetarians generally have adequate iron intake, it is clear that
non-heme iron can easily meet nutritional needs. Also, plant iron doesn't
create the health risks of heme iron.

Iron increases heart disease risks because heme iron acts as a
pro-oxidant, causing LDL-cholesterol -- the 'bad' cholesterol -- to react
with oxygen. This reaction is involved in the formation of plaques in the
arteries and therefore increases one's risk of cardiovascular problems. [2]

[1] Nelson, Davis, Suffer, Sobin, Kikeenddl, Bowen. Body iron stores
and risk of colonic neoplasia. J Natl Canc Inst 1994; 86:455-60

[2] Ascherio, Willett, Rimm, Giovannucci, Stampger. Dietary iron intake
and risk of coronary disease among men. Circulation 1994; 89:969-74

http://www.ecologos.org/iron.htm

<..>

pearl wrote:
>>>What is wrong with getting B12 from lean meats?
>
> Are You Vitamin B12 Deficient? (*emphasis added))

No, but your hero Coleman is.
I had my diet checked over 5 years ago by a nutritionist. Is was fine,
however usual thing of vitamin B12 and D suggested for supplement. I
have had 2 medicals since I went raw, both very positive - these
included MRI scans, cardio assessments and blood chemistry. Urine MMA
was poor, not unexpected.
John "Shaky" Coleman: http://snipurl.com/6jym

The methylmalonic acid (MMA) test is a sensitive and early indicator of
vitamin B12 deficiency at the tissue level. MMA is a compound that is
usually produced in very small amounts during amino acid (protein)
metabolism. Normally, B12 acts as a cofactor in the conversion of
methylmalonyl CoA to succinyl CoA. If there is not enough B12 to act as
a cofactor, then methylmalonyl CoA concentrations begin to rise and the
body converts the methylmalonyl CoA to MMA instead. This causes MMA
levels to rise in both the blood and the urine when B12 levels are low.
http://www.labtestsonline.org/unders...ma/sample.html

<...>
> http://www.ecologos.org/iron.htm

You just keep scraping the bottom of the barrel.

usual suspect wrote:
> pearl wrote:
>
> <...>
>
>> http://www.ecologos.org/iron.htm
>
>
> You just keep scraping the bottom of the barrel.

ecologos.org is the cockroach shit from *under* the barrel.

Jonathan Ball wrote:

>> <...>
>>
>>> http://www.ecologos.org/iron.htm
>>
>>
>>
>> You just keep scraping the bottom of the barrel.
>
>
> ecologos.org is the cockroach shit from *under* the barrel.

I stand corrected, lol.

usual suspect wrote:

> Jonathan Ball wrote:
>
>>> <...>
>>>
>>>> http://www.ecologos.org/iron.htm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You just keep scraping the bottom of the barrel.
>>
>>
>>
>> ecologos.org is the cockroach shit from *under* the barrel.
>
>
> I stand corrected, lol.

And Lesley is the shepherdess of the cockroaches.
She's a very tender shepherdess - she massages their
little feets.

Pearl>
> Are You Vitamin B12 Deficient? (*emphasis added))

Technically I was Pearl with both low serum 82 and high MMA .73. However,
no symptoms or any psychological problems at all, normal red cells etc., and
high cognitive scores.

Well done for posting the Framingham findings. Meat is a lousy source of B12
when cooked. People get what B12 they can mostly from dairy because it is
pasteurised. Heat damages B12.

> *The researchers found no association between plasma B12 and meat,
> poultry, and fish intake, even though these foods supply the bulk of B12
> in the diet. "It's not because people aren't eating enough meat," Tucker
> says. "The vitamin isn't getting absorbed." The vitamin is tightly bound
to

Good to post about iron overload as well, yes this is leading edge stuff! I
have Bill Sardi's Iron Time Bomb, but I am ordering some of the primary
research as well. http://www.billsardi.com/sdm.asp?pg=iron

John C

> The heme iron in meats tends to pass quickly right through the adsorption
> mechanism, thus entering the blood stream whether it is needed or not.

The mechanism for heme is quite different, it is known as the "iron
withholding defence system" and helps to suppress intestinal parasites,
which of course are common to humans in unhygienic conditions, but not so
much now. Pathogenic bacteria and gut parasites require iron to multiply and
can get it from meat in the diet or sometimes directly from the lining of
the gut, especially when it is damaged, or else from shed surface cells.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol5no3/weinberg.htm

It's interesting that people who eat hunter-gatherer diets can have quite
high prevelance of anaemia though they often eat heaps of meat. Intestinal
parasites may cause the problem.

People who eat meat tend to slowly accumulate excess iron as well.

My total cholesterol is about 92 using the US units BTW. Comparable to
figures in rural Chinese villagers reported in the China Study. At that
level you get virtually 0 risk of a coronary event.

John C

"usual suspect" > wrote in message ...
> pearl wrote:
> >>>What is wrong with getting B12 from lean meats?
> >
> > Are You Vitamin B12 Deficient? (*emphasis added))
>
> No, but your hero Coleman is.

A lie. You are aware that he has taken a B12 supplement for years.

> I had my diet checked over 5 years ago by a nutritionist. Is was fine,
> however usual thing of vitamin B12 and D suggested for supplement. I
> have had 2 medicals since I went raw, both very positive - these
> included MRI scans, cardio assessments and blood chemistry. Urine MMA
> was poor, not unexpected.
> John "Shaky"

You're lying.

> Coleman: http://snipurl.com/6jym
>
> The methylmalonic acid (MMA) test is a sensitive and early indicator of
> vitamin B12 deficiency at the tissue level. MMA is a compound that is
> usually produced in very small amounts during amino acid (protein)
> metabolism. Normally, B12 acts as a cofactor in the conversion of
> methylmalonyl CoA to succinyl CoA. If there is not enough B12 to act as
> a cofactor, then methylmalonyl CoA concentrations begin to rise and the
> body converts the methylmalonyl CoA to MMA instead. This causes MMA
> levels to rise in both the blood and the urine when B12 levels are low.
> http://www.labtestsonline.org/unders...ma/sample.html

He writes that he was borderline deficient. Was he eating quality organic
produce known to contain some cobalt, needed by gut bacteria to produce
B12? Healthy gut microbiota? Only he can answer these questions, usual.

> <...>
> > http://www.ecologos.org/iron.htm
>
> You just keep scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Ad hominem. Snip and run in this post x 2. lol.

"Jonathan Ball" >
> cockroach shit from *under* the barrel.

pearl wrote:
<...>
>>I had my diet checked over 5 years ago by a nutritionist. Is was fine,
>>however usual thing of vitamin B12 and D suggested for supplement. I
>>have had 2 medicals since I went raw, both very positive - these
>>included MRI scans, cardio assessments and blood chemistry. Urine MMA
>>was poor, not unexpected.
>>John "Shaky"
>
> You're lying.

He'll shake like an epileptic in a few months.

>>Coleman: http://snipurl.com/6jym
>>
>>The methylmalonic acid (MMA) test is a sensitive and early indicator of
>>vitamin B12 deficiency at the tissue level. MMA is a compound that is
>>usually produced in very small amounts during amino acid (protein)
>>metabolism. Normally, B12 acts as a cofactor in the conversion of
>>methylmalonyl CoA to succinyl CoA. If there is not enough B12 to act as
>>a cofactor, then methylmalonyl CoA concentrations begin to rise and the
>>body converts the methylmalonyl CoA to MMA instead. This causes MMA
>>levels to rise in both the blood and the urine when B12 levels are low.
>>http://www.labtestsonline.org/unders...ma/sample.html
>
> He writes that he was borderline deficient.

He was deficient from a poor diet.

> Was he eating quality organic
> produce known to contain some cobalt, needed by gut bacteria to produce
> B12? Healthy gut microbiota? Only he can answer these questions, usual.

How the **** would *he* know the quality of the bacteria in his intestines? He's
been quite clear when he's volunteered information about his rather peculiar
diet. It's very deficient in a variety of nutrients.

>><...>
>>
>>>http://www.ecologos.org/iron.htm
>>
>>You just keep scraping the bottom of the barrel.
>
> Ad hominem.

Not ad hominem.

> Snip and run in this post x 2. lol.

Do you consume urine or recommend it to your "patients" (lmao) as a cure-all?
http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/urine.htm

John Coleman wrote:
<...>
> Good to post about iron overload as well, yes this is leading edge stuff! I
> have Bill Sardi's Iron Time Bomb, but I am ordering some of the primary
> research as well. http://www.billsardi.com/sdm.asp?pg=iron

Sardi is a crackpot. He doesn't have a sound grasp of the primary research, and
neither will you if you ever acquire it.

John Coleman wrote:

>>The heme iron in meats tends to pass quickly right through the adsorption
>>mechanism, thus entering the blood stream whether it is needed or not.
>
> The mechanism for heme is quite different, it is known as the "iron
> withholding defence system" and helps to suppress intestinal parasites,
> which of course are common to humans in unhygienic conditions, but not so
> much now. Pathogenic bacteria and gut parasites require iron to multiply and
> can get it from meat in the diet or sometimes directly from the lining of
> the gut, especially when it is damaged, or else from shed surface cells.
> http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol5no3/weinberg.htm

You're exaggerating Weinberg's thesis (and that's all it is at this point).
Weinberg uses precision in stating that it's *excessive* metals in *specific*
tissues that can cause problems. From the article you linked above:
Excessive amounts of the metal in specific tissues and cells can hinder
the ability of proteins, such as transferrin and ferritin, to prevent
accretion of free iron. Moreover, in infectious diseases, inflammatory
diseases, and illnesses that involve ischemia and reperfusion, iron
causes reactions that produce superoxide radicals.

BTW, nonheme iron is also pro-oxidant (causing free radicals).
"Although the mechanistic details are still being 'ironed out,' the
structures of these intermediates provide clues as to how nonheme iron
might activate O2," says Julie A. Kovacs, a bioinorganic chemistry
professor at the University of Washington, Seattle, about the work.
http://pubs.acs.org/cen/topstory/8107/8107notw1.html

See also:
http://snipurl.com/6kzm

> It's interesting that people who eat hunter-gatherer diets can have quite
> high prevelance of anaemia though they often eat heaps of meat. Intestinal
> parasites may cause the problem.
>
> People who eat meat tend to slowly accumulate excess iron as well.

Ipse dixit. Excessive iron, heme or nonheme, is often a result of
over-consumption rather than a moderate diet (unlike your extremist raw diet).

...[T]oo much iron also may be life-threatening warns Dr. Eugene
Weinberg, professor emeritus of microbiology at Indiana University at
Bloomington. Both cancer cells and infectious organisms need iron from
their host to grow, says Weinberg, who has studied the effects of iron
for three decades.

Without iron and oxygen from the blood, these organisms cannot multiply.
Hendler agrees, but says, "It's a long process. You're not going to die
the next day from liver cancer, neurological disorders, or diabetes."
http://health.discovery.com/centers/...ron/iron3.html

Stop the pro-raw scare-mongering, and stop misrepresenting findings of
researchers you'll never understand.

<...>

"Jonathan Ball" > wrote in message
ink.net...

> ecologos.org is the cockroach shit from *under* the barrel.
Yet, your ONLY demonstrated ability is to be a vulgar oaf; you can not
refute anything I say with facts and logic. You can not debate any issue in
a polite, rational manner.
All you have is vulgarity.

And now from noBalls' Greatest hits:
"It's nothing but a bit of schoolyard namecalling."

Laurie

Laurie wrote:

> "Jonathan Ball" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
>
>>ecologos.org is the cockroach shit from *under* the barrel.
>
> Yet, your ONLY

No, one of many

> demonstrated ability is

to show that ecologos.org is crap. You don't know any
science. Your contention about human diet is flat-out
wrong.