usual suspect posted on alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian

> Diary products and eggs aren't byproducts of the farming industry
> as I used to believe. Milk keeps the veal industry alive

Good. The demand for veal is increasing again.

> and eggs are
> produced from birds which suffer terribly.

No, they are not. You've apparently been watching propaganda video taken of
the
most extreme cases of abuse. Such cases are not the norm in agriculture, and
in
most cases the videos you've seen have been used to prosecute bad operators.

"Birds which suffer terribly" don't lay good eggs. Stop pretending that
farmers
don't care about good products -- those are the ones that make them the most
money.
http://www.nda.agric.za/docs/eggprod/default.htm
http://www.sp.uconn.edu/~mdarre/poul...factsheet.html
http://ulisse.cas.psu.edu/ext/Comeggs.html

> Adding these two products
> to my -no- list improves my health

Not necessarily. Where do you get your calcium, zinc, iron, B12, etc.? Are
you
getting all the essential amino acids?

> and ensures I don't have anything
> to do with the animal side of farming at all.

It doesn't mean you have no blood on your hands. Many more animals die as a
result of your vegan diet than would if you were to eat a diet of homegrown
vegetables and grazed ruminants (including game).

http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html

The reality of your "cruelty-free" diet:
http://www.bds.org.uk/Research/Silag...entperrier.htm

<...>



-------------------------------
==================
-------------------------------
heres my reply
"> Adding these two products
> to my -no- list improves my health
Not necessarily. Where do you get your calcium, zinc, iron, B12, etc.? Are
you
getting all the essential amino acids?"

Most farmers inject hormones into cows and hens to give a better "crop" of
eggs and milk. These hormones cause medical problems for these animals, most
of the "side effects" result in shortened life, extreme fatique, nerve
damage, nausea, and Anemia(lowered rate of red blood cells in the body and
lowered ratio of oxygen, happens to a women with aids, farmers must
administer HIV medicine to counter this effect.) These hormones, transfer to
the human body after digesting the milk, eggs. Even in this small amount,
they may harm a women while on her period causeing many health problems, and
men by lowering sperm count.

The second thing--
"Where do you get your calcium, zinc, iron, B12, etc.? Are you getting all
the essential amino acids?"
I get all them at twice the needed rate and more from a pill that is free of
any products from animals.


"It doesn't mean you have no blood on your hands. Many more animals
die as a result of your vegan diet than would if you were to eat a diet of
homegrown vegetables and grazed ruminants (including game)."

That site that you got that from is bullshit, more animals live because of
crops being grown,
most farmers allow these rats and rabbits ect, to graze on the crop, the
farmers industrial
and small, see it as free natural feralizer, although there is a heightened
loss of flies because
of the rodents, the ratio of vegan to normal meat dieters animal death is
aboot 30-to-10,000
the 30 is natural while the 10k is separated aboot 9.6k non-natural to 300
semi-natural 100 natural.

So vegan"ism" is better for the world.

Vaine wrote:

>> and eggs are
>> produced from birds which suffer terribly.
>
> No, they are not. You've apparently been watching propaganda video taken
> of the

I, for one never watched a propaganda film about chickens and eggs.
However, I used to have a friend whose family owned a chicken farm where
the chickens were... well, I wouldn't want to be one of those birds, that
is for sure.

When they got past the chick stage, the farmer would do this nasty procedure
called debeaking where they would use a red hot blade to cut off the front
half on the bird's beak, then they would stick it in a cage of about 180
square inches along with another bird where it would spend the rest of its
life, at least until she would be shipped to the slaughterhouse. In that
close of confinement, the birds would get on each other's nerves and they
would often fight. That is why they debeaked them, so as to prevent them
from injuring each other, since the less aggressive bird had no place to
run. I saw those things with my own eyes. I even smelled the smell of the
smoke that came from the beak of the bird as it was removed with the red
hot blade. If that somebody's idea of being kind to animals, I pity him.
As far as I am concerned, that is animal cruelty. By the way, I am
definitely not a PITA type.

Some chicken farms actually let the bird's feet touch the ground. I
understand that is relatively common for some reason here in Washington
State, but it is not always the case, by any means, throughout the country,
as I witnessed in person at, admittedly, only one chicken farm. However, I
did read that this was sort of an industry standard, at least in Florida,
where I witnessed it.

While the birds may not suffer TERRIBLY, they don't lead any kind of real
life couped up in those tiny cages. However, I suppose that the word
"terribly" can be interpreted as meaning different things to different
people. We may have different opinions on this. We cannot ask the chicken
because all she will do will be to cluck in response. If she could answer,
then she would be the expert.

By the way, you also mentioned veal. Again, when I was in Florida I worked
for a couple years at a slaughterhouse where they only handled cattle.
Though some of the calves were up to a year old when slaughtered, many of
the calves slaughtered for veal were so young that, not only were they born
at the slaughterhouse, but when they died, their umbilicus was still
bleeding. After seeing as many calves as I did die that young, I lost all
taste for veal for just about the rest of my life.


--
Andy Rugg - The Cheerful Pickle
To email me, please remove "postheap" from my email address. Thanks.

Vain wrote:
> usual suspect posted on alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian

Nice, cross-posting. I'll paste in my replies from aaev. Now on to my remarkable
prose...

>>Diary products and eggs aren't byproducts of the farming industry
>>as I used to believe. Milk keeps the veal industry alive
>
> Good. The demand for veal is increasing again.
>
>>and eggs are
>>produced from birds which suffer terribly.
>
> No, they are not. You've apparently been watching propaganda video taken of
> the
> most extreme cases of abuse. Such cases are not the norm in agriculture, and
> in
> most cases the videos you've seen have been used to prosecute bad operators.
>
> "Birds which suffer terribly" don't lay good eggs. Stop pretending that
> farmers
> don't care about good products -- those are the ones that make them the most
> money.
> http://www.nda.agric.za/docs/eggprod/default.htm
> http://www.sp.uconn.edu/~mdarre/poul...factsheet.html
> http://ulisse.cas.psu.edu/ext/Comeggs.html
>
>>Adding these two products
>>to my -no- list improves my health
>
> Not necessarily. Where do you get your calcium, zinc, iron, B12, etc.? Are
> you
> getting all the essential amino acids?
>
>>and ensures I don't have anything
>>to do with the animal side of farming at all.
>
> It doesn't mean you have no blood on your hands. Many more animals die as a
> result of your vegan diet than would if you were to eat a diet of homegrown
> vegetables and grazed ruminants (including game).
>
> http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
>
> The reality of your "cruelty-free" diet:
> http://www.bds.org.uk/Research/Silag...entperrier.htm
>
> <...>
>
>
> -------------------------------
> ==================
> -------------------------------
> heres my reply
> "> Adding these two products
> > to my -no- list improves my health
> Not necessarily. Where do you get your calcium, zinc, iron, B12, etc.? Are
> you
> getting all the essential amino acids?"
>
> Most farmers inject hormones into cows and hens to give a better "crop" of
> eggs and milk.

Liar, at least with respect to your claims about the use of hormones in poultry.

The US Department of Agriculture (USDA) prohibits the use of hormones in
the raising of hogs or poultry in the United States. Therefore all pork
and poultry products that carry the “no hormones administered” label
only represent the regulations that are already in place for pork and
poultry and should not be taken to mean that the manufacturer is doing
anything beyond USDA requirements for conventional pork and poultry
products.
http://www.eco-labels.org/label.cfm?LabelID=114

> These hormones cause medical problems for these animals,


Not in ALL animals to which they're administered.

> most
> of the "side effects" result in shortened life, extreme fatique, nerve
> damage, nausea, and Anemia(lowered rate of red blood cells in the body and
> lowered ratio of oxygen, happens to a women with aids, farmers must
> administer HIV medicine to counter this effect.)


Ipse dixit. Where did you get this disinformation?

> These hormones, transfer to
> the human body after digesting the milk, eggs.


Ipse dixit regarding milk, a *complete* *****ing* *lie* about eggs since
chickens are not given hormones. Ever!!!

Somatotropin, a growth hormone, is a new animal drug under investigation
for use in lactating dairy cows. The specific form of the drug is bovine
somatotropin (BST), which is prepared by micro-biological fermentation,
a process of bioengineering. When BST is administered to lactating cows
to improve productivity, the natural levels of the hormone (six parts
per billion) in the milk have remained essentially unchanged. Milk from
cows treated with BST has been declared safe for human consumption and,
under proper herd management, BST will enhance milk production.
http://www.ces.uga.edu/pubcd/B1084-W.HTML#Hormones

Despite FDA approval in 1985, several consumer groups have expressed
concern over the unforeseen medical problems, traces of antibiotics in
milk and meat products and the effect of the increase of insulin-like
growth factor (IGF-1). Some consumers doubt the credibility of
government organizations, thus doubting FDA reports. Another health
concern pertains to penicillin-based drugs (bactum-lactam), the most
commonly used, to treat mastitis. The FDA will have to monitor the
illegal use of these drugs to prevent allergic reactions in humans.
IGF-1 is present in the human dietary process and is identical to cow
IGF-1. Both rbST and IGF-1 are orally inactive. Consumers fear the
potential carcinogenic affects of higher concentrations of IGF-1 in
milk. IGF-1 stimulates intestinal cell growth, thus increased the risk
of abnormal intestinal growth. The levels of IGF-1 are 100-1000 times
lower than endogenous blood levels in humans, therefore, if IGF-1 is not
completely digested, there will be insignificant physiological effects
on humans and infants.
http://www.american.edu/TED/bst.htm

BST Human Safety is Verified by Five Independent Authorities
http://www.msue.msu.edu/msue/imp/modda/11119206.html

Etc.

> Even in this small amount,
> they may harm a women while on her period causeing many health problems, and
> men by lowering sperm count.


According to whom?

> The second thing--
> "Where do you get your calcium, zinc, iron, B12, etc.? Are you getting all
> the essential amino acids?"
> I get all them at twice the needed rate and more from a pill that is free of
> any products from animals.


Guess you're not a "back to nature" type. Pills aren't very natural.

> "It doesn't mean you have no blood on your hands. Many more animals
> die as a result of your vegan diet than would if you were to eat a diet of
> homegrown vegetables and grazed ruminants (including game)."
>
> That site that you got that from is bullshit, more animals live because of
> crops being grown,


Not when they're harvested. When the cover (grains, legumes, vegetables) is
cleared, the animals are vulnerable to predation. Don't just watch the buzzards
circling over the fields, watch the hawks and other birds of prey, too.

> most farmers allow these rats and rabbits ect, to graze on the crop,


Do they? Then why do they put out poisons and traps?

> the
> farmers industrial
> and small, see it as free natural feralizer, although there is a heightened
> loss of flies because
> of the rodents, the ratio of vegan to normal meat dieters animal death is
> aboot 30-to-10,000
> the 30 is natural while the 10k is separated aboot 9.6k non-natural to 300
> semi-natural 100 natural.


According to whom? You pulled this out of your smelly ass.

> So vegan"ism" is better for the world.


Only for some cows and pigs. Not for mice, birds, snakes, frogs, turtles,
skunks, rats, deer....

<...>

>> The reality of your "cruelty-free" diet:
>> http://www.bds.org.uk/Research/Silag...entperrier.htm