Hello all,

www.vegsoc.org explains that wool is not always sheared from live sheep - it
can be taken from dead sheep. Also, the RSPCA state that some sheep are cut
without anaesthetic to make their skin tighter, to improve the quality of
the wool.

My vegetarian girlfriend discovered these facts after I'd ripped up and
disposed of our old carpets. I can't lay new ones until she's sure they are
ethically sourced. Does anyone know of any carpet companies (UK) that she'd
approve of?

I emailed vegsoc.org and they replied with:

"Seagrass, Coir, Sisal and Jute carpets would all be OK, if a little hard
on the knees. And I understand nylon carpets are not as bad as they used to
be."

I'd really like comfortable wool carpets if at all possible.

Your help is appreciated ,

Edward.

"Edward" > wrote in message
...
> Hello all,
>
> www.vegsoc.org explains that wool is not always sheared from live sheep -
it
> can be taken from dead sheep. Also, the RSPCA state that some sheep are
cut
> without anaesthetic to make their skin tighter, to improve the quality of
> the wool.
>
> My vegetarian girlfriend discovered these facts after I'd ripped up and
> disposed of our old carpets. I can't lay new ones until she's sure they
are
> ethically sourced. Does anyone know of any carpet companies (UK) that
she'd
> approve of?

don't know about the wool stuff, but if you have to go with synthetic, i've
heard that there are a few companies making recycled/recyclable, more
environmentally friendly carpets.

>
> I emailed vegsoc.org and they replied with:
>
> "Seagrass, Coir, Sisal and Jute carpets would all be OK, if a little hard
> on the knees. And I understand nylon carpets are not as bad as they used
to
> be."
>
> I'd really like comfortable wool carpets if at all possible.
>
> Your help is appreciated ,
>
> Edward.
>
>

"Edward" > wrote in message >.. .
> Hello all,
>
> www.vegsoc.org explains that wool is not always sheared from live sheep - it
> can be taken from dead sheep.

You gotta be joking. Sure it can be done, but a sheep that dies from
old age is as rare as rocking horse manure, a sheep that dies from
sickness will most likely have a useless fleece.

Also, the RSPCA state that some sheep are cut
> without anaesthetic to make their skin tighter, to improve the quality of
> the wool.

This is a joke, right? Do you have an anaesthetic when you have a hair
cut or trim your nails? Wool is like hair, DEAD TISSUE. Or do you mean
"cut" as castrate?

>
> My vegetarian girlfriend discovered these facts after I'd ripped up and
> disposed of our old carpets. I can't lay new ones until she's sure they are
> ethically sourced. Does anyone know of any carpet companies (UK) that she'd
> approve of?
>
> I emailed vegsoc.org and they replied with:
>
> "Seagrass, Coir, Sisal and Jute carpets would all be OK, if a little hard
> on the knees. And I understand nylon carpets are not as bad as they used to
> be."
>
> I'd really like comfortable wool carpets if at all possible.
>
> Your help is appreciated ,
>
> Edward.

> This is a joke, right? Do you have an anaesthetic when you have a hair
> cut or trim your nails? Wool is like hair, DEAD TISSUE. Or do you mean
> "cut" as castrate?
>

Apparantly they are cut under their tails, the tails are then pulled back
and stitched (without anasthetic) to make the pelt on their backs stand more
upright. This produces a better quality of wool when they are sheared.



>> www.vegsoc.org explains that wool is not always sheared from live sheep -
it
>> can be taken from dead sheep.

>You gotta be joking. Sure it can be done, but a sheep that dies from
>old age is as rare as rocking horse manure, a sheep that dies from
>sickness will most likely have a useless fleece.

Not sure what you're going on about here. Basically, the majority of wool is
a by-product of the meat industry. If farmers couldn't sell the wool as well
as the meat, they'd have to charge more for the meat to make the same
profit. This in turn would lead to customers being charged higher prices for
meat, so less people would buy it. Therefore, buying wool makes meat
cheaper.

I'm not vegetarian, these are my girlfriends sentiments - I just want a wool
carpet!

Thanks for the reply Katie, recycled could be the way forward!

"katie" > wrote in message
.rogers.com...
>
> "Edward" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hello all,
> >
> > www.vegsoc.org explains that wool is not always sheared from live
sheep -
> it
> > can be taken from dead sheep. Also, the RSPCA state that some sheep are
> cut
> > without anaesthetic to make their skin tighter, to improve the quality
of
> > the wool.
> >
> > My vegetarian girlfriend discovered these facts after I'd ripped up and
> > disposed of our old carpets. I can't lay new ones until she's sure they
> are
> > ethically sourced. Does anyone know of any carpet companies (UK) that
> she'd
> > approve of?
>
> don't know about the wool stuff, but if you have to go with synthetic,
i've
> heard that there are a few companies making recycled/recyclable, more
> environmentally friendly carpets.
>
> >
> > I emailed vegsoc.org and they replied with:
> >
> > "Seagrass, Coir, Sisal and Jute carpets would all be OK, if a little
hard
> > on the knees. And I understand nylon carpets are not as bad as they
used
> to
> > be."
> >
> > I'd really like comfortable wool carpets if at all possible.
> >
> > Your help is appreciated ,
> >
> > Edward.
> >
> >
>
>

"Edward" > wrote

> Not sure what you're going on about here. Basically, the majority of wool
is
> a by-product of the meat industry. If farmers couldn't sell the wool as
well
> as the meat, they'd have to charge more for the meat to make the same
> profit. This in turn would lead to customers being charged higher prices
for
> meat, so less people would buy it. Therefore, buying wool makes meat
> cheaper.

Are you sure you're not thinking of leather?

"William J. Wolfe" > wrote in message
m...
> "Edward" > wrote in message
>.. .
> > Hello all,
> >
> > www.vegsoc.org explains that wool is not always sheared from live
sheep - it
> > can be taken from dead sheep.
>
> You gotta be joking. Sure it can be done, but a sheep that dies from
> old age is as rare as rocking horse manure, a sheep that dies from
> sickness will most likely have a useless fleece.
>
> Also, the RSPCA state that some sheep are cut
> > without anaesthetic to make their skin tighter, to improve the quality
of
> > the wool.
>
> This is a joke, right? Do you have an anaesthetic when you have a hair
> cut or trim your nails? Wool is like hair, DEAD TISSUE. Or do you mean
> "cut" as castrate?
>
when he says 'cut', he's talking about skin, not hair : (

"On the surface, it appears that wool is a benign product because, at least
theoretically, it can be obtained without harming the sheep. However, upon
closer inspection, we find that the wool industry is actually very similar
to the egg and dairy industries. While animals such as laying hens, dairy
cows, and wool-bearing sheep are not immediately killed to procure their
salable products, they suffer tremendously for years prior to their ultimate
and unavoidable slaughter.
Most people believe that sheep are overburdened with too much wool and
therefore need to be shorn. Although today's wool-bearing sheep have thick,
heavy coats, it is the result of selective breeding over thousands of years.
These animals are descended from wild mountain sheep, still found in some
remote regions of the world, which shed their fine woolly hair naturally.
Wool provides sheep with warmth and protection from inclement weather and
sunburn. Because our "modern" wool-bearers are extremely vulnerable to the
elements without their wool, many sheep die of exposure shortly after being
denuded.

From the earliest of times there was complicity in the use of wool. Merinos,
which were originally from Spain, are the most efficient wool producers.
Mutton breeds, which primarily originated in England, are used predominately
for meat. Cross-breeds are raised for the dual purpose of meat and wool.
Nevertheless, Merinos also yield mutton and mutton breeds also yield wool.
No sheep escapes either function; it is just a matter of emphasis.
Essentially, all wool is a slaughterhouse product.

Wool is classed as either "shorn wool," that which is shorn from sheep
annually, or "pulled wool," that which is taken from sheep at the time of
slaughter. Horrors abound on sheep farms, including mutilating, painful
surgical procedures that are performed without anesthesia. These entail
mulesing, the cutting of large strips of flesh off the hind legs to reduce
fly problems, and tail docking, designed to preserve the salable condition
of wool surrounding a sheep's anus, among others. A large percentage of the
world's wool is produced from Merinos exported from Australia. These sheep
are crammed onto ships by the tens of thousands, crowded into filthy pens,
and packed so tightly they can barely move. As a result, thousands of sheep
die each year from suffocation, trampling, or starvation.

Sheep shearers are paid by piece rate, meaning that speed not precision
guides the process. Consequently, most sheep are roughly handled, lacerated,
and injured during the process. The production of wool, as with all
industries that consider animals as mere commodities, is rife with cruelty
and abuse. In addition, the purchase of wool supports the continual
slaughter of millions of lambs and sheep each year."


"In the U.S., most wool comes from either domestically raised sheep or sheep
raised in Australia and New Zealand (American Sheep Industry Association).
Sheep raised for wool are bred to have lambs who are sent to slaughter;
sheep whose wool / lamb production has started to decline are also
slaughtered (SFAP, 1998). Over 500,000 sheep and lambs in the U.S. died from
predation in 1994 (USDA). In turn, sheep ranchers kill predators such as
coyotes. Sheep and lambs are subjected to harsh weather conditions, with
over 100,000 dying from weather-related causes in 1994 (USDA). The Model
Code of Practice for the Welfare of Animals for Australia & New Zealand
(1995) allows for tail docking, castration, and surgical removal of skin
folds without anesthesia. Shearing sheep causes bruising and cuts
(Agriculture Western Australia, 1997)."

"katie" > wrote in message
.rogers.com...
>
> "Edward" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hello all,
> >
> > www.vegsoc.org explains that wool is not always sheared from live
sheep -
> it
> > can be taken from dead sheep. Also, the RSPCA state that some sheep are
> cut
> > without anaesthetic to make their skin tighter, to improve the quality
of
> > the wool.
> >
> > My vegetarian girlfriend discovered these facts after I'd ripped up and
> > disposed of our old carpets. I can't lay new ones until she's sure they
> are
> > ethically sourced. Does anyone know of any carpet companies (UK) that
> she'd
> > approve of?

You should never have ripped up your old carpets. The carpets were doing no
further harm to the sheep they came from, and now you're going to have to
expend more resources in order to get another one. There's no need to throw
out all your leather items, or fur items, etc. either. Keep using them. It
causes more resources to be saved in the long run. Using things as long as
possible is ecologically sound. Throwing out all your animal-derived
belongings and getting new "vegetarian" ones is wasteful and uses extra
resources. Use the non-veg ones you already have until they wear out, then
get other things that come from a more "ethical" source to replace them.

-Rubystars

"Edward" > wrote in message >...
> > This is a joke, right? Do you have an anaesthetic when you have a hair
> > cut or trim your nails? Wool is like hair, DEAD TISSUE. Or do you mean
> > "cut" as castrate?
> >
>
> Apparantly they are cut under their tails, the tails are then pulled back
> and stitched (without anasthetic) to make the pelt on their backs stand more
> upright. This produces a better quality of wool when they are sheared.

Sounds like crutching, a process where a small piece of wool and skin
is removed from under the sheep's arse so as to leave a wool free area
to prevent dung fron sticking to wool. It has absolutely no affect on
wool quality.
>
>
>
> >> www.vegsoc.org explains that wool is not always sheared from live sheep -
> it
> >> can be taken from dead sheep.
>
> >You gotta be joking. Sure it can be done, but a sheep that dies from
> >old age is as rare as rocking horse manure, a sheep that dies from
> >sickness will most likely have a useless fleece.
>
> Not sure what you're going on about here. Basically, the majority of wool is
> a by-product of the meat industry.

Not in my part of the world it isn't I grew up on four million acres
of Australian sheep station. We grew sheep for wool, the fine wool
used for clothing.

If farmers couldn't sell the wool as well
> as the meat, they'd have to charge more for the meat to make the same
> profit. This in turn would lead to customers being charged higher prices for
> meat, so less people would buy it. Therefore, buying wool makes meat
> cheaper.

Depends on the wool. Australian merinos grow wool that in some cases
is finer than human hair. Then there are the sheep that grow coarse
wool that is only suitable for carpets.
>
> I'm not vegetarian, these are my girlfriends sentiments - I just want a wool
> carpet!

A sensible idea. Synthetic carpets are great for growing static
eletetricity charges on moving humans. My preferred choice for floor
is polished timber. Of course lazy housekeepers hate wood floors,
there is no carpet to hide the dust.

"Rubystars" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "katie" > wrote in message
> .rogers.com...
> >
> > "Edward" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > www.vegsoc.org explains that wool is not always sheared from live
> sheep -
> > it
> > > can be taken from dead sheep. Also, the RSPCA state that some sheep
are
> > cut
> > > without anaesthetic to make their skin tighter, to improve the quality
> of
> > > the wool.
> > >
> > > My vegetarian girlfriend discovered these facts after I'd ripped up
and
> > > disposed of our old carpets. I can't lay new ones until she's sure
they
> > are
> > > ethically sourced. Does anyone know of any carpet companies (UK) that
> > she'd
> > > approve of?
>
> You should never have ripped up your old carpets. The carpets were doing
no
> further harm to the sheep they came from, and now you're going to have to
> expend more resources in order to get another one. There's no need to
throw
> out all your leather items, or fur items, etc. either. Keep using them. It
> causes more resources to be saved in the long run. Using things as long as
> possible is ecologically sound. Throwing out all your animal-derived
> belongings and getting new "vegetarian" ones is wasteful and uses extra
> resources. Use the non-veg ones you already have until they wear out, then
> get other things that come from a more "ethical" source to replace them.
>
> -Rubystars
>
i think the guy ripped out the carpets for decorating reasons, from the
sounds of it, since he isn't a vegetarian. maybe they were old and gross,
or just a horrendous 70s colour scheme. sounds like the ethics came in from
the gf after they had already ripped stuff out, and then he's like well
hell, what do we put in now?
i vote wood. easier to clean. and looks so toasty and warm. less sneezes,
too. or, in my house we have this stuff that's really easy to install
yourself. it's a kind of fake wood that's so tough you can even light stuff
on fire on it, and the black just rubs right off. it looks nice enough, but
it'll last forever and is probably cheaper than wood, if that's an issue.
btw, i totally agree with you on the using things until they're worn out
thing. some folks feel so guilty that they can't bear to even have the
stuff on them, or they want to make a completely fresh, fully vegan start.
but the thing's already dead and on your feet or whatnot, right? better to
conserve resources, since most materials aren't environmentally friendly at
all (ie treated leathers or synthetics, even cottons). cause polluting
hurts you and your animal friends.

"katie" > wrote in message s.com...
[..]
> i think the guy ripped out the carpets for decorating reasons, from the
> sounds of it, since he isn't a vegetarian. maybe they were old and gross,
> or just a horrendous 70s colour scheme. sounds like the ethics came in from
> the gf after they had already ripped stuff out, and then he's like well
> hell, what do we put in now?
> i vote wood. easier to clean. and looks so toasty and warm. less sneezes,
> too. or, in my house we have this stuff that's really easy to install
> yourself. it's a kind of fake wood that's so tough you can even light stuff
> on fire on it, and the black just rubs right off. it looks nice enough, but
> it'll last forever and is probably cheaper than wood, if that's an issue.

I hate the stuff, but more to the point, my dog hates
it even more than I do. He can't run on it. That's a cert,
and the most maddening thing of all is that he can't
even sit on it because his backside slides away from
his front legs when he tries. I'll stick with carpets for
the home and wooden flooring for offices and dental
practices.

"Edward" > wrote in message ...
[..]
> >> www.vegsoc.org explains that wool is not always
> >>sheared from live sheep - it can be taken from dead
> >>sheep.

It can be and is taken from sheep that are yet to born,
too.

> >You gotta be joking. Sure it can be done, but a sheep that dies from
> >old age is as rare as rocking horse manure, a sheep that dies from
> >sickness will most likely have a useless fleece.
>
> Not sure what you're going on about here. Basically, the majority of wool is
> a by-product of the meat industry.

An exception to this would be karakul lamb fur;
[In March 2000, HSUS investigators touring the farm near
Bukhara found that pregnant ewes are in fact routinely
slaughtered for these fetal pelts. Graphic videotape shot at
the farm shows a pregnant ewe held down, her throat slit
and her stomach slashed wide so that a worker could
remove the developing fetus-the "raw material" for coats,
vests, and other broadtail fashions. What's more, contrary
to the industry's claims that karakul lamb fur is merely a
byproduct of meat production, HSUS investigators
videotaped newborn lambs displayed as "samples" of pelt
colors before being sent to their death. The pelts were
saved, the tiny carcasses discarded as trash.]
http://www.hsus.org/ace/12046

"katie" > wrote in message e.rogers.com>...
> "William J. Wolfe" > wrote in message
> m...
> > "Edward" > wrote in message
> >.. .
> > > Hello all,
> > >
> > > www.vegsoc.org explains that wool is not always sheared from live
> sheep - it
> > > can be taken from dead sheep.
> >
> > You gotta be joking. Sure it can be done, but a sheep that dies from
> > old age is as rare as rocking horse manure, a sheep that dies from
> > sickness will most likely have a useless fleece.
> >
> > Also, the RSPCA state that some sheep are cut
> > > without anaesthetic to make their skin tighter, to improve the quality
> of
> > > the wool.
> >
> > This is a joke, right? Do you have an anaesthetic when you have a hair
> > cut or trim your nails? Wool is like hair, DEAD TISSUE. Or do you mean
> > "cut" as castrate?
> >
> when he says 'cut', he's talking about skin, not hair : (
>
> "On the surface, it appears that wool is a benign product because, at least
> theoretically, it can be obtained without harming the sheep.

Sheep are shorn without doing any harm to sheep. Its the equivalent of
a human having a hair cut.

However, upon
> closer inspection, we find that the wool industry is actually very similar
> to the egg and dairy industries. While animals such as laying hens, dairy
> cows, and wool-bearing sheep are not immediately killed to procure their
> salable products, they suffer tremendously for years prior to their ultimate
> and unavoidable slaughter.

Sheep do not suffer, nor do dairy cows, and especially dairy cows.
Stressed dairy cows do not produce milk in the same quantity as when
they are unstressd.

Let me give you a short lesson on animals and stress. I eat meat, ie,
animal muscle tissue, white meat, fish, sheep, pig, kangaroo and deer.
Right now I have five young pigs in a pen. These are feral pigs,
caught after their mother was shot. They were making a war zone in a
cane farm. Feral pigs can also spread disease among domestic
livestock.

So now there are five orphan pigs growing fat under my care. When I
bought these future pork dinners home I enclosed them in a pen until
for a week until they settled into their new home. They now have fresh
water, shelter, food and ten acres to roam in. One pig decided to be a
trouble maker, for the first four days running like a lunatic all
around the pen, stesing himself crazy. I had thought he would die of
shock but now he is feeding well and growing. The point is that, in
spite of the animal welfare fairy tales, animals under strees do not
give their best in producing milk, eggs, or growth. If I kept these
pigs in cramped unclean conditions they would be susceptible to
disease, they could suffer from pneumonia, they woulf have mineral and
vitamin deficiencies, just as do humans who live in less than ideal
conditions.

> Most people believe that sheep are overburdened with too much wool and
> therefore need to be shorn. Although today's wool-bearing sheep have thick,
> heavy coats, it is the result of selective breeding over thousands of years.
> These animals are descended from wild mountain sheep, still found in some
> remote regions of the world, which shed their fine woolly hair naturally.
> Wool provides sheep with warmth and protection from inclement weather and
> sunburn. Because our "modern" wool-bearers are extremely vulnerable to the
> elements without their wool, many sheep die of exposure shortly after being
> denuded.

Which can happen if sheep are shorn at the wrong time of year, also
Merino sheep do not like having thich fleeces soaked with rain.
>
> From the earliest of times there was complicity in the use of wool. Merinos,
> which were originally from Spain, are the most efficient wool producers.
> Mutton breeds, which primarily originated in England, are used predominately
> for meat. Cross-breeds are raised for the dual purpose of meat and wool.

Cross breeds, like most compromises, do neither very well.

> Nevertheless, Merinos also yield mutton and mutton breeds also yield wool.
> No sheep escapes either function; it is just a matter of emphasis.
> Essentially, all wool is a slaughterhouse product.

Yep, and sold as lambswool, wool with tanned sheep hide.
>
> Wool is classed as either "shorn wool," that which is shorn from sheep
> annually, or "pulled wool," that which is taken from sheep at the time of
> slaughter. Horrors abound on sheep farms, including mutilating, painful
> surgical procedures that are performed without anesthesia. These entail
> mulesing, the cutting of large strips of flesh off the hind legs to reduce
> fly problems, and tail docking, designed to preserve the salable condition
> of wool surrounding a sheep's anus, among others.

Removing wool bearing skin from around the sheep's bum prevents a
number of life threatening problems. Sheep dung soaked into wool
attracts blow flies which lay eggs in the shitty wool. There is
nothing more sickening than a blow fly struck animal about to die.

A large percentage of the
> world's wool is produced from Merinos exported from Australia.

Actually, bugger all comes from exported Australian sheep.

These sheep
> are crammed onto ships by the tens of thousands, crowded into filthy pens,
> and packed so tightly they can barely move. As a result, thousands of sheep
> die each year from suffocation, trampling, or starvation.

What you have is a distorted partial truth. You really do need to make
sure you have the full story here. The reality is that middle eastern
countries buy Austrlian sheep for food. They are transported to Kuwait
and Saudi Arabia for slaughter. Once the animals have left the
Australian farm the Austraian farmer is not in any way responsible for
what happens to the animals, in the same way that general Motors is
not in any way responsible for the way you drive one of their vehicles
after you buy it.
>
> Sheep shearers are paid by piece rate, meaning that speed not precision
> guides the process.

Actually, if you don't manage to get your act together and shear with
speed AND precision, you don't shear at all.

Consequently, most sheep are roughly handled,

Bullsit. Rough handled animals panic, stress and are bloody hard to
control.

lacerated,
> and injured during the process.

No they aren't. You start chopping holes in stud Merino rams and you
kiss godd-bye to your pay cheque and your future shearing contracts.

The production of wool, as with all
> industries that consider animals as mere commodities, is rife with cruelty
> and abuse. In addition, the purchase of wool supports the continual
> slaughter of millions of lambs and sheep each year."
>
>
> "In the U.S., most wool comes from either domestically raised sheep or sheep
> raised in Australia and New Zealand (American Sheep Industry Association).
> Sheep raised for wool are bred to have lambs who are sent to slaughter;

Not necessarily true. When you mate two stud Merinos you aren't going
to send a potential future prise stud to the lamb chop factory.

> sheep whose wool / lamb production has started to decline are also
> slaughtered (SFAP, 1998). Over 500,000 sheep and lambs in the U.S. died from
> predation in 1994 (USDA). In turn, sheep ranchers kill predators such as
> coyotes. Sheep and lambs are subjected to harsh weather conditions, with
> over 100,000 dying from weather-related causes in 1994 (USDA).

You Americans need to learn how to look after valuable animals.

The Model
> Code of Practice for the Welfare of Animals for Australia & New Zealand
> (1995) allows for tail docking, castration, and surgical removal of skin
> folds without anesthesia.

All farm animals are denutted without anaesthesia. If you feel the
need to feel shock at the tohought of this, remember how you gently
handled yourself the last time you did yourself an injury. Pain is a
way of telling you to be gentle with yourself.

Shearing sheep causes bruising and cuts
> (Agriculture Western Australia, 1997)."

yeah, and sometimes the sheep leave teh shed with a few blade cuts as
well. Bruised shearers learn to avoid flying hooves.

"katie" > wrote in message
<snip>
> i think the guy ripped out the carpets for decorating reasons, from the
> sounds of it, since he isn't a vegetarian. maybe they were old and gross,
> or just a horrendous 70s colour scheme. sounds like the ethics came in
from
> the gf after they had already ripped stuff out, and then he's like well
> hell, what do we put in now?

Good question.

> i vote wood. easier to clean. and looks so toasty and warm. less
sneezes,
> too.

Well even if they had a wooden floor, they'd probably want to put a throw
rug down. Anyway, isn't wood even harder on animals?

There are probably some exceptions and wood that comes from pre-planted tree
farms that were there for that very purpose, but deforestation isn't really
a picnic for wildlife either. I hate to sound like one of those people who
are always talking about CDs, but well, I think in this case it might apply.


>or, in my house we have this stuff that's really easy to install
> yourself. it's a kind of fake wood that's so tough you can even light
stuff
> on fire on it, and the black just rubs right off. it looks nice enough,
but
> it'll last forever and is probably cheaper than wood, if that's an issue.

If it's long lasting that would be great.

> btw, i totally agree with you on the using things until they're worn out
> thing. some folks feel so guilty that they can't bear to even have the
> stuff on them, or they want to make a completely fresh, fully vegan start.
> but the thing's already dead and on your feet or whatnot, right?

Yeah exactly. If they really can't bear it, they should at least donate the
leather clothes and stuff to someone who needs clothes so that they can be
recycled.

>better to
> conserve resources, since most materials aren't environmentally friendly
at
> all (ie treated leathers or synthetics, even cottons). cause polluting
> hurts you and your animal friends.

True.

-Rubystars

"Rubystars" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "katie" > wrote in message
> <snip>
> > i think the guy ripped out the carpets for decorating reasons, from the
> > sounds of it, since he isn't a vegetarian. maybe they were old and
gross,
> > or just a horrendous 70s colour scheme. sounds like the ethics came in
> from
> > the gf after they had already ripped stuff out, and then he's like well
> > hell, what do we put in now?
>
> Good question.
>
> > i vote wood. easier to clean. and looks so toasty and warm. less
> sneezes,
> > too.
>
> Well even if they had a wooden floor, they'd probably want to put a throw
> rug down. Anyway, isn't wood even harder on animals?
>
> There are probably some exceptions and wood that comes from pre-planted
tree
> farms that were there for that very purpose, but deforestation isn't
really
> a picnic for wildlife either. I hate to sound like one of those people who
> are always talking about CDs, but well, I think in this case it might
apply.
>
this is one of those things that i just don't know. i mean, there aren't
exactly comparative CD tables around. sheep are raised in pastures, right?
weren't pastures forests once, that were cut down? cause i don't think that
nature usually comes in tree-fenced square patches. although, i don't know
how they do things with sheep, so maybe the environment over there was in
that stage of growth. who knows? not me. clearcutting is definitely bad,
in lots of ways. when i was hiking in the bc mountains, i looked out onto
the scenery, and was horrified to see massive clearcut patches. it was so
sad. i think the best way to go is selective forestry, that only takes
certain trees instead of taking everything. but as a consumer, how can you
tell? often, it's hard to find any kind of product with how it's made
listed. hopefully, by the time that i have a house to do flooring in,
things will be more clear/available in that respect. cause carpet isn't
even an option for me, unless i want to live with an ever-sneeze. looks
like tile/laminate/wood/wood-imitations are what i've got to choose from.

>
> >or, in my house we have this stuff that's really easy to install
> > yourself. it's a kind of fake wood that's so tough you can even light
> stuff
> > on fire on it, and the black just rubs right off. it looks nice enough,
> but
> > it'll last forever and is probably cheaper than wood, if that's an
issue.
>
> If it's long lasting that would be great.
>
> > btw, i totally agree with you on the using things until they're worn out
> > thing. some folks feel so guilty that they can't bear to even have the
> > stuff on them, or they want to make a completely fresh, fully vegan
start.
> > but the thing's already dead and on your feet or whatnot, right?
>
> Yeah exactly. If they really can't bear it, they should at least donate
the
> leather clothes and stuff to someone who needs clothes so that they can be
> recycled.

for sure. and you get flack when you wear leather shoes as a vegan. but
i'm not about to ditch perfectly useful shoes just so i 'feel better' and
avoid being challenged so much. i mean, you can donate jackets and stuff,
but most folks won't buy used shoes, i think, since they aren't usually too
good for your feet (when they've molded to someone else's)
>
> >better to
> > conserve resources, since most materials aren't environmentally friendly
> at
> > all (ie treated leathers or synthetics, even cottons). cause polluting
> > hurts you and your animal friends.
>
> True.
>
> -Rubystars
>
>

"katie" > wrote in message
<snip>
> this is one of those things that i just don't know. i mean, there aren't
> exactly comparative CD tables around. sheep are raised in pastures,
right?
> weren't pastures forests once, that were cut down? cause i don't think
that
> nature usually comes in tree-fenced square patches. although, i don't
know
> how they do things with sheep, so maybe the environment over there was in
> that stage of growth. who knows? not me. clearcutting is definitely
bad,
> in lots of ways. when i was hiking in the bc mountains, i looked out onto
> the scenery, and was horrified to see massive clearcut patches. it was so
> sad. i think the best way to go is selective forestry, that only takes
> certain trees instead of taking everything. but as a consumer, how can
you
> tell? often, it's hard to find any kind of product with how it's made
> listed. hopefully, by the time that i have a house to do flooring in,
> things will be more clear/available in that respect. cause carpet isn't
> even an option for me, unless i want to live with an ever-sneeze. looks
> like tile/laminate/wood/wood-imitations are what i've got to choose from.

Yeah I know what you mean. I don't have a problem with buying wood, but I
wouldn't buy redwood, or wood that I *knew* came from clear cutting. Most of
the time it's hard to tell, and I don't worry about it. Why stress over the
small stuff anyway?

<snip>
> for sure. and you get flack when you wear leather shoes as a vegan. but
> i'm not about to ditch perfectly useful shoes just so i 'feel better' and
> avoid being challenged so much. i mean, you can donate jackets and stuff,
> but most folks won't buy used shoes, i think, since they aren't usually
too
> good for your feet (when they've molded to someone else's)

Good point about the shoes. *L*

-Rubystars

"katie" > wrote in message
e.rogers.com...
>
> "Rubystars" > wrote in message
> . com...
> >
> > "katie" > wrote in message
> > <snip>
> > > i think the guy ripped out the carpets for decorating reasons, from the
> > > sounds of it, since he isn't a vegetarian. maybe they were old and gross,
> > > or just a horrendous 70s colour scheme. sounds like the ethics came in from
> > > the gf after they had already ripped stuff out, and then he's like well
> > > hell, what do we put in now?
> >
> > Good question.
> >
> > > i vote wood. easier to clean. and looks so toasty and warm. less sneezes,
> > > too.
> >
> > Well even if they had a wooden floor, they'd probably want to put a throw
> > rug down. Anyway, isn't wood even harder on animals?
> >
> > There are probably some exceptions and wood that comes from pre-planted tree
> > farms that were there for that very purpose, but deforestation isn't really
> > a picnic for wildlife either. I hate to sound like one of those people who
> > are always talking about CDs, but well, I think in this case it might apply.
> >
> this is one of those things that i just don't know. i mean, there aren't
> exactly comparative CD tables around. sheep are raised in pastures, right?
> weren't pastures forests once, that were cut down? cause i don't think that
> nature usually comes in tree-fenced square patches. although, i don't know
> how they do things with sheep, so maybe the environment over there was in
> that stage of growth. who knows? not me. clearcutting is definitely bad,
> in lots of ways. when i was hiking in the bc mountains, i looked out onto
> the scenery, and was horrified to see massive clearcut patches. it was so
> sad. i think the best way to go is selective forestry, that only takes
> certain trees instead of taking everything. but as a consumer, how can you
> tell? often, it's hard to find any kind of product with how it's made
> listed. hopefully, by the time that i have a house to do flooring in,
> things will be more clear/available in that respect. cause carpet isn't
> even an option for me, unless i want to live with an ever-sneeze. looks
> like tile/laminate/wood/wood-imitations are what i've got to choose from.
>
> >
> > >or, in my house we have this stuff that's really easy to install
> > > yourself. it's a kind of fake wood that's so tough you can even light stuff
> > > on fire on it, and the black just rubs right off. it looks nice enough, but
> > > it'll last forever and is probably cheaper than wood, if that's an issue.
> >
> > If it's long lasting that would be great.

Use rugs or carpets made from Hemp?
http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&ie...emp+rugs&meta=

The Weed That Could Change The World
http://rense.com/general49/could.htm

See also;
http://rense.com/Datapages/hempdat.htm

katie wrote:
<...>
> this is one of those things that i just don't know. i mean, there aren't
> exactly comparative CD tables around. sheep are raised in pastures, right?

Yep.

> weren't pastures forests once, that were cut down?

Not necessarily. Most pasture land is in the prairies, and prairieland is
characterized by abundance of grasses. Prairies contain stands of trees, but not
nearly in the density (or types) found in forests.

> cause i don't think that
> nature usually comes in tree-fenced square patches. although, i don't know
> how they do things with sheep, so maybe the environment over there was in
> that stage of growth. who knows? not me.

On that point, we agree.

> clearcutting is definitely bad,

It may be unaesthetic, but wood is a renewable resource.

> in lots of ways. when i was hiking in the bc mountains, i looked out onto
> the scenery, and was horrified to see massive clearcut patches. it was so
> sad. i think the best way to go is selective forestry, that only takes
> certain trees instead of taking everything.

Most timber companies engage in such practices in old-growth forests.

> but as a consumer, how can you tell?

Companies make a point of marketing products made of sustainable products, like
selectively forested timber or even recycled wood.

> often, it's hard to find any kind of product with how it's made
> listed.

Not really.

> hopefully, by the time that i have a house to do flooring in,
> things will be more clear/available in that respect. cause carpet isn't
> even an option for me, unless i want to live with an ever-sneeze. looks
> like tile/laminate/wood/wood-imitations are what i've got to choose from.

You can use sustainable woods for flooring. Several flooring companies
specialize in dismantling old buildings (and homes) to salvage timbers than can
be milled into flooring or other products. Also, bamboo flooring is a very
sustainable product with a pleasant aesthetic. Bamboo grows quickly and
prolificly. It's a grass, after all, not a tree. It's the only timber product
*I* would buy from third-world countries.

http://www.bamboo-flooring.com/index.asp
http://www.teragren.com/teragren.asp
http://www.woodfloorsonline.com/styl...ds/bamboo.html

<...>
> for sure. and you get flack when you wear leather shoes as a vegan. but
> i'm not about to ditch perfectly useful shoes just so i 'feel better' and
> avoid being challenged so much. i mean, you can donate jackets and stuff,
> but most folks won't buy used shoes, i think, since they aren't usually too
> good for your feet (when they've molded to someone else's)

Leather is one of the most bogus issues in veganism. Cows don't need it after
they die regardless of how they die. Don't let other people judge you in your
food or attire. And don't judge others on such frivolous measures, either.

<...>

Rubystars wrote:
<...>
> Yeah I know what you mean. I don't have a problem with buying wood, but I
> wouldn't buy redwood,

Much of the redwood sold today is from selective timbering, second-growth, and
salvaging of fallen trees. Salvaged redwood is widely available.

http://www.bearcreeklumber.com/produ...ycledsust.html

<...>

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> Rubystars wrote:
> <...>
> > Yeah I know what you mean. I don't have a problem with buying wood, but
I
> > wouldn't buy redwood,
>
> Much of the redwood sold today is from selective timbering, second-growth,
and
> salvaging of fallen trees. Salvaged redwood is widely available.
>
> http://www.bearcreeklumber.com/produ...ycledsust.html

Great! Still wouldn't want to take a chance though unless I knew the source.

-Rubystars

thanks for the links and info. never thought about bamboo, i'll check it
out. it'll be a long time before i am able to build my own eco-house, but
in the meantime, i'm trying to learn all i can about sustainable building
materials. i'm putting together a file with all the cool stuff i've come
across. stuff like straw bale, recycled shingles, anaerobic digesters,
greywater, composting toilets, solar & wind stuff, etc. love this stuff!

Rubystars wrote:
>>>Yeah I know what you mean. I don't have a problem with buying wood, but
> I
>>>wouldn't buy redwood,
>>
>>Much of the redwood sold today is from selective timbering, second-growth,
> and
>>salvaging of fallen trees. Salvaged redwood is widely available.
>>
>>http://www.bearcreeklumber.com/produ...ycledsust.html
>
> Great! Still wouldn't want to take a chance though unless I knew the source.

It's a pretty safe assumption that you're not buying clear-cut old-growth
redwood. Most old-growth redwood is selectively harvested or even taken from
trees which have already fallen. Most domestic redwood sold today is
second-growth. The last link is from a SF Chronicle article (by their
environmental reporter) on a sustainable redwood harvesting symposium. Not
enough detail is given in that article about redwood's substitutes, namely South
American hardwoods (e.g., teak and mahogany), which are much closer to being
endangered than redwood. You avoid one choice, but are you making a "worse"
choice by purchasing teak or mahogany?

http://www.cfbf.com/issues/earthwise/forest.htm
http://www.calredwood.org/ref/pdf/using.pdf
http://snipurl.com/5sf4

katie wrote:
> thanks for the links and info.

No problem, girly girl.

> never thought about bamboo, i'll check it
> out.

It looks like any other wooden flooring.

> it'll be a long time before i am able to build my own eco-house,

Don't put it off for "a long time." Building your own home doesn't cost that
much, especially if you buy stuff as you go along. The worst thing you can do,
imo, is to wait until you qualify for a mortgage (French for "death pledge"). Do
it on the fly and you'll never need to fork over $400k for a $100k house.

> but
> in the meantime, i'm trying to learn all i can about sustainable building
> materials. i'm putting together a file with all the cool stuff i've come
> across.

Good deal.

> stuff like straw bale, recycled shingles, anaerobic digesters,
> greywater, composting toilets, solar & wind stuff, etc. love this stuff!

I'm not a big fan of straw bale houses, mainly from the point of trying to get
zoning approval, finding an architect, getting insurance, figuring out a
reasonable assessment for taxes, resale value, etc. I've heard both good and bad
from people who've built with it.

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> Rubystars wrote:
> >>>Yeah I know what you mean. I don't have a problem with buying wood, but
> > I
> >>>wouldn't buy redwood,
> >>
> >>Much of the redwood sold today is from selective timbering,
second-growth,
> > and
> >>salvaging of fallen trees. Salvaged redwood is widely available.
> >>
> >>http://www.bearcreeklumber.com/produ...ycledsust.html
> >
> > Great! Still wouldn't want to take a chance though unless I knew the
source.
>
> It's a pretty safe assumption that you're not buying clear-cut old-growth
> redwood. Most old-growth redwood is selectively harvested or even taken
from
> trees which have already fallen. Most domestic redwood sold today is
> second-growth. The last link is from a SF Chronicle article (by their
> environmental reporter) on a sustainable redwood harvesting symposium. Not
> enough detail is given in that article about redwood's substitutes, namely
South
> American hardwoods (e.g., teak and mahogany), which are much closer to
being
> endangered than redwood. You avoid one choice, but are you making a
"worse"
> choice by purchasing teak or mahogany?
>
> http://www.cfbf.com/issues/earthwise/forest.htm
> http://www.calredwood.org/ref/pdf/using.pdf
> http://snipurl.com/5sf4

I actually haven't bought a lot of wood things anyway, and the things I did
buy, I have no idea what they are, because they were second hand anyway, but
I'm thinking about the future when I'll have a house to furnish.

-Rubystars

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> katie wrote:
> > thanks for the links and info.
>
> No problem, girly girl.
>
> > never thought about bamboo, i'll check it
> > out.
>
> It looks like any other wooden flooring.
>
> > it'll be a long time before i am able to build my own eco-house,
>
> Don't put it off for "a long time." Building your own home doesn't cost
that
> much, especially if you buy stuff as you go along. The worst thing you can
do,
> imo, is to wait until you qualify for a mortgage (French for "death
pledge"). Do
> it on the fly and you'll never need to fork over $400k for a $100k house.
>
not really sure how to approach this one. building a house is a big deal.
i live in ottawa, so just finding land wouldn't be cheap, and i'd have to
find it near good public transit (one of my goals is to never own a car,
although if i had to, i'd try to retrofit one to take biodiesel, or
something). you can get pretty close to the city's edge with the rapid
transit, so maybe i could actually find something that i wouldn't have to
sell my favourite organs to finance. my plan has always been to avoid a
mortgage and build in a 'pay as you go' style, although i'd have to rent
until i had enough saved to buy a crappy fixerupper, and rent seems like
money down the drain. have to figure that stuff out. for now, my earnings
all pour into tuition. still a complicated undertaking though, financing
and building aside. i mean, i'm just 21. anchoring myself to a house and a
city so young...well, who knows where i'll want to live or work? throwing a
s.o.'s life into the mix doesn't make the decision any easier. building a
house with someone who i don't even know that i'll 'end up with' is a bit
scary. point is that although i know this stuff is probably way less of a
big deal than everyone makes it out to be, it's a lot to think about, and i
feel a bit hesitant about it all.

> > but
> > in the meantime, i'm trying to learn all i can about sustainable
building
> > materials. i'm putting together a file with all the cool stuff i've
come
> > across.
>
> Good deal.
>
> > stuff like straw bale, recycled shingles, anaerobic digesters,
> > greywater, composting toilets, solar & wind stuff, etc. love this
stuff!
>
> I'm not a big fan of straw bale houses, mainly from the point of trying to
get
> zoning approval, finding an architect, getting insurance, figuring out a
> reasonable assessment for taxes, resale value, etc. I've heard both good
and bad
> from people who've built with it.
>
i think it depends where you live. some places are really receptive to new
building ideas, others are reluctant to give approval on anything that
doesn't fit the status quo. the zoning folks here are skeptical, but not
entirely rigid, from the sounds of it. a guy recently got reluctant
approval to build a house with a styrofoam foundation. everyone thought it
sounded nuts, but it's a great idea, one i'd look into as well. we do have
some cool environmental-housing orgs here, and one of them gives workshops
on straw bale housing. you pay $375 to spend a whole weekend building a
straw bale house with a team, from start to finish, including doing all the
wiring and stuff, so you can figure out how it all works. seems pretty
cool, some good hands-on learning. so i know that i could find an
architect, since there is another org around here that does the
enviro-housing. insurance might not be a problem if you can show them how
straw bale houses perform better on fire tests than standard houses. i
think most folks think of straw bale and think fire and rot. and the tax
system is so ****ed up here that people's houses are being assessed at 2
million higher than what they paid for them (one example...ugh, we've had
tons of them pouring in from ****ed off residents - i work at city hall).
so i don't know how the assessment would go. it's more of a neighbourhood
value average, instead of assessing each individual house...so i'd probably
be just as screwed as everyone else ()

katie wrote:
<...>
> not really sure how to approach this one. building a house is a big deal.

So is moving all your stuff, whether it's to another house or an apartment.

> i live in ottawa,

You poor thing. Consider moving out west. It's prettier and the peeps are nicer.

> so just finding land wouldn't be cheap, and i'd have to
> find it near good public transit (one of my goals is to never own a car,
> although if i had to, i'd try to retrofit one to take biodiesel, or
> something).

If you build your own or repair a slum, you'll need a truck to carry stuff
around. Any diesel engine will burn "biodiesel" (i.e., vegetable oils which have
had the glycerides removed) without any retrofitting. You won't want to use a
new car/truck since running "biodiesel" can void the warranty.

> you can get pretty close to the city's edge with the rapid
> transit,

Remember, what is today's "city's edge" was the boondocks 10-15 years ago.
Public transportation will go to the boondocks as people continue to flock out
of the central city. Look down the road, now at the status quo.

> so maybe i could actually find something that i wouldn't have to
> sell my favourite organs to finance.

Better to pay as you go than to finance anything. It requires patience and
persistence, which seem harder until you figure out how hard it is to pay ~20%
interest to credit card companies.

> my plan has always been to avoid a
> mortgage and build in a 'pay as you go' style,

Good deal.

> although i'd have to rent
> until i had enough saved to buy a crappy fixerupper, and rent seems like
> money down the drain. have to figure that stuff out.

It isn't always money down the drain. When you take out a mortgage, you're
paying back interest first anyway -- so forget about building equity off the
bat. I just ran an amortization schedule for $100,000 over 30 years at 5.25%.
The dent made on the first payment isn't even $115 on a $552.20 payment. Figure
out how much that money costs you over the life of the mortgage: you'll tie up
close to $200,000 for a $100,000 house. How long would it take you to save the
$100,000 while you're renting and earning interest on your savings? Less than 30
years?

> for now, my earnings all pour into tuition.

Best investment you'll ever make. I hope you have a real-world major instead of
undertaking some academic frivolity that won't provide much in the way of
marketable skills.

> still a complicated undertaking though, financing
> and building aside. i mean, i'm just 21.

The sooner you start making good, firm decisions, the sooner your money will
work for you.

> anchoring myself to a house and a
> city so young...well, who knows where i'll want to live or work? throwing a
> s.o.'s life into the mix doesn't make the decision any easier. building a
> house with someone who i don't even know that i'll 'end up with' is a bit
> scary. point is that although i know this stuff is probably way less of a
> big deal than everyone makes it out to be, it's a lot to think about, and i
> feel a bit hesitant about it all.

You have some time to figure out what you're doing with your life.

<...>
> i think it depends where you live. some places are really receptive to new
> building ideas,

We have one of the biggest green builder programs in the US. Straw is still a
bit of a novelty and eccentric. We have a lot of homes and buildings going up
with alternatives. Some of those are bales. Most, though, rely on more
traditional products or products which aren't quite as eccentric as bales. Some
of the nicest results I've seen locally involve the use of Rastra, which is a
recycled plastic product which is used to form concrete into walls (flat,
curved, it doesn't matter).

> others are reluctant to give approval on anything that
> doesn't fit the status quo.

Which can really bring down the resale value unless you find someone who
appreciates what you have.

> the zoning folks here are skeptical, but not
> entirely rigid, from the sounds of it. a guy recently got reluctant
> approval to build a house with a styrofoam foundation. everyone thought it
> sounded nuts, but it's a great idea, one i'd look into as well. we do have
> some cool environmental-housing orgs here, and one of them gives workshops
> on straw bale housing. you pay $375 to spend a whole weekend building a
> straw bale house with a team, from start to finish, including doing all the
> wiring and stuff, so you can figure out how it all works. seems pretty
> cool, some good hands-on learning.

Hmmm... our workshops are a lot less than that. I attended one a few years ago.
It was $20 AND that included meals (supper night before, breakfast, lunch,
dinner on day of build).

> so i know that i could find an
> architect, since there is another org around here that does the
> enviro-housing. insurance might not be a problem if you can show them how
> straw bale houses perform better on fire tests than standard houses.

Underwriters are still picky about taking on the risk, especially when dealing
with valuations far in excess of replacement costs.

> i
> think most folks think of straw bale and think fire and rot. and the tax
> system is so ****ed up here that people's houses are being assessed at 2
> million higher than what they paid for them (one example...ugh, we've had
> tons of them pouring in from ****ed off residents - i work at city hall).

I live in an area where our property values have skyrocketed over the last
decade. We're trying to revamp the property tax structure here in Texas right
now, but I doubt we'll make much of a dent anytime soon.

> so i don't know how the assessment would go. it's more of a neighbourhood
> value average, instead of assessing each individual house...so i'd probably
> be just as screwed as everyone else ()

Uh huh. Or you could move out west where land is cheaper and taxes are a little
lower.

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> katie wrote:
> <...>
> > not really sure how to approach this one. building a house is a big
deal.
>
> So is moving all your stuff, whether it's to another house or an
apartment.
>
> > i live in ottawa,
>
> You poor thing. Consider moving out west. It's prettier and the peeps are
nicer.

i've been dreaming about that since i started going to boot camp out there
on the island every summer as a teenager. i was hooked from day one. it's
so beautiful, the air is clean (at least where i was) and all of my
allergies were gone. i can't stand ottawa environmentally. it's great from
an employment standpoint, and the public transit is pretty great...but the
winters are awful, all freezing and bleak and snow up to my eyeballs...and
the summers are smothering, smog-coated humidity. i can only really be
outside in the spring and fall. so that sucks. but i've heard two things
about bc, one that it's way to expensive to live there (unless you're up in
the north-mainland), and that young folks can't find a job, unless they want
to go service industry. i'd stay in ottawa because my family is in this
province, and because at least i know i can find good work (being such a
government centre, especially)...but i'm still thinking about it. the west
coast just latches onto that special place in your chest that gives off the
warm fuzzies()
>
> > so just finding land wouldn't be cheap, and i'd have to
> > find it near good public transit (one of my goals is to never own a car,
> > although if i had to, i'd try to retrofit one to take biodiesel, or
> > something).
>
> If you build your own or repair a slum, you'll need a truck to carry stuff
> around. Any diesel engine will burn "biodiesel" (i.e., vegetable oils
which have
> had the glycerides removed) without any retrofitting. You won't want to
use a
> new car/truck since running "biodiesel" can void the warranty.
>
new. ha! like i'd ever be able to afford a 'new' set o' wheels. besides,
cars seem like a sucking money pit, unless you truly need them. i don't
know...i could get someone with a truck to haul the stuff away every so
often, fuel the local economy and whatnot.

> > you can get pretty close to the city's edge with the rapid
> > transit,
>
> Remember, what is today's "city's edge" was the boondocks 10-15 years ago.
> Public transportation will go to the boondocks as people continue to flock
out
> of the central city. Look down the road, now at the status quo.

that's part of my plan, since i have access to the city's future
plans/proposals for light rail. i could go far enough out to be somewhere
affordable, but that would have a train around the corner in a decade or so.
>
> > so maybe i could actually find something that i wouldn't have to
> > sell my favourite organs to finance.
>
> Better to pay as you go than to finance anything. It requires patience and
> persistence, which seem harder until you figure out how hard it is to pay
~20%
> interest to credit card companies.

for sure. holding a new credit card in my hand with what seemed like a high
limit to me gave me this rush of possibility. it was like pure evil. at
that moment, their power became clear. i always pay off fully each month.
>
> > my plan has always been to avoid a
> > mortgage and build in a 'pay as you go' style,
>
> Good deal.
>
> > although i'd have to rent
> > until i had enough saved to buy a crappy fixerupper, and rent seems like
> > money down the drain. have to figure that stuff out.
>
> It isn't always money down the drain. When you take out a mortgage, you're
> paying back interest first anyway -- so forget about building equity off
the
> bat. I just ran an amortization schedule for $100,000 over 30 years at
5.25%.
> The dent made on the first payment isn't even $115 on a $552.20 payment.
Figure
> out how much that money costs you over the life of the mortgage: you'll
tie up
> close to $200,000 for a $100,000 house. How long would it take you to save
the
> $100,000 while you're renting and earning interest on your savings? Less
than 30
> years?
>
guess it depends on what kind of job i can snag, and how much more education
i get (and pay for)

> > for now, my earnings all pour into tuition.
>
> Best investment you'll ever make. I hope you have a real-world major
instead of
> undertaking some academic frivolity that won't provide much in the way of
> marketable skills.

ehhhh...at this point, i look at almost all majors as being useless to do
anything except get a further degree. i'm a geography major (with an
unrecognized human rights combined major). with that, all i can really do
is go to teachers' college(eww kids) or get a masters degree. once i have a
masters degree, then i'll be employable, especially by the government, which
doesn't seem to care what your degree is in, so long as you have one. and i
feel that the human rights stuff will help to round out my degree, so that i
could be more employable by certain NGOs or government agencies. or who
knows, i could even go to med school. only 3 or 4 required science credits
to get in, and i have two of them...just not the $60-80thou to go with em.'
point is, for the most part, undergrad degrees don't matter (anymore, what
with this raising the bar stuff), you've just got to have them as a stepping
stone.
>
> > still a complicated undertaking though, financing
> > and building aside. i mean, i'm just 21.
>
> The sooner you start making good, firm decisions, the sooner your money
will
> work for you.
>
> > anchoring myself to a house and a
> > city so young...well, who knows where i'll want to live or work?
throwing a
> > s.o.'s life into the mix doesn't make the decision any easier. building
a
> > house with someone who i don't even know that i'll 'end up with' is a
bit
> > scary. point is that although i know this stuff is probably way less of
a
> > big deal than everyone makes it out to be, it's a lot to think about,
and i
> > feel a bit hesitant about it all.
>
> You have some time to figure out what you're doing with your life.
>
let's hope i can figure it out. hell, i couldn't even pick an icecream
flavour before my options got cut back to the available soy delicious ones.
thank goodness for simplicity!
> <...>
> > i think it depends where you live. some places are really receptive to
new
> > building ideas,
>
> We have one of the biggest green builder programs in the US. Straw is
still a
> bit of a novelty and eccentric. We have a lot of homes and buildings going
up
> with alternatives. Some of those are bales. Most, though, rely on more
> traditional products or products which aren't quite as eccentric as bales.
Some
> of the nicest results I've seen locally involve the use of Rastra, which
is a
> recycled plastic product which is used to form concrete into walls (flat,
> curved, it doesn't matter).
>
that sounds neato. maybe i'll look into it, and add it to my housing file.
you know, i could make like that bc family and just build a yurt. that
sounds affordable. although i'd probably be eaten by cougars.

> > others are reluctant to give approval on anything that
> > doesn't fit the status quo.
>
> Which can really bring down the resale value unless you find someone who
> appreciates what you have.

ehh...the straw bale houses i've seen out there look totally normal. and if
you tell them why it and all the other enviro-perks are good, and mention
all the cash they'll save in energy costs, i think they'd go for it.
besides, there should be enough environmentally-conscious openminded folks
around by that time to have one want the house for it's unique qualities.
or maybe i'll just stay there until my strategic, old-age heroin suicide
with my husband()
>
> > the zoning folks here are skeptical, but not
> > entirely rigid, from the sounds of it. a guy recently got reluctant
> > approval to build a house with a styrofoam foundation. everyone thought
it
> > sounded nuts, but it's a great idea, one i'd look into as well. we do
have
> > some cool environmental-housing orgs here, and one of them gives
workshops
> > on straw bale housing. you pay $375 to spend a whole weekend building a
> > straw bale house with a team, from start to finish, including doing all
the
> > wiring and stuff, so you can figure out how it all works. seems pretty
> > cool, some good hands-on learning.
>
> Hmmm... our workshops are a lot less than that. I attended one a few years
ago.
> It was $20 AND that included meals (supper night before, breakfast, lunch,
> dinner on day of build).

yeah, this one includes meals too, i think for the whole 3-someodd days. do
you actually get to fully participate in everything for the 20$? i wish
they had better student rates. that org puts on great stuff, but it's so
damned expensive!
>
> > so i know that i could find an
> > architect, since there is another org around here that does the
> > enviro-housing. insurance might not be a problem if you can show them
how
> > straw bale houses perform better on fire tests than standard houses.
>
> Underwriters are still picky about taking on the risk, especially when
dealing
> with valuations far in excess of replacement costs.

meh...i'll figure something out.
>
> > i
> > think most folks think of straw bale and think fire and rot. and the
tax
> > system is so ****ed up here that people's houses are being assessed at 2
> > million higher than what they paid for them (one example...ugh, we've
had
> > tons of them pouring in from ****ed off residents - i work at city
hall).
>
> I live in an area where our property values have skyrocketed over the last
> decade. We're trying to revamp the property tax structure here in Texas
right
> now, but I doubt we'll make much of a dent anytime soon.

same process trying to get started here too. seems like a whole lotta talk,
and not much action.
>
> > so i don't know how the assessment would go. it's more of a
neighbourhood
> > value average, instead of assessing each individual house...so i'd
probably
> > be just as screwed as everyone else ()
>
> Uh huh. Or you could move out west where land is cheaper and taxes are a
little
> lower.
>
i can dream. who knows, maybe i will revert to my plan to skip town for bc
after school...

katie wrote:
<...>
>>You poor thing. Consider moving out west. It's prettier and the peeps are
> nicer.
>
> i've been dreaming about that since i started going to boot camp out there
> on the island every summer as a teenager. i was hooked from day one. it's
> so beautiful, the air is clean (at least where i was) and all of my
> allergies were gone.

At least during the season you were there. Odds are pretty good that if you go
another time of year, you'll find something else to which you're allergic. That
happened to me when I moved here.

> i can't stand ottawa environmentally. it's great from
> an employment standpoint, and the public transit is pretty great...but the
> winters are awful, all freezing and bleak and snow up to my eyeballs...

It doesn't snow as much in BC, at least along the coast.

> and
> the summers are smothering, smog-coated humidity. i can only really be
> outside in the spring and fall. so that sucks. but i've heard two things
> about bc, one that it's way to expensive to live there (unless you're up in
> the north-mainland),

Try Alberta.

> and that young folks can't find a job, unless they want
> to go service industry. i'd stay in ottawa because my family is in this
> province, and because at least i know i can find good work (being such a
> government centre, especially)...but i'm still thinking about it. the west
> coast just latches onto that special place in your chest that gives off the
> warm fuzzies()

Only if you like beautiful mountains, clean air, pretty ocean views, nice
people, etc. Ick. (jk)

<...>
> new. ha! like i'd ever be able to afford a 'new' set o' wheels. besides,
> cars seem like a sucking money pit, unless you truly need them.

Cars are depreciating assets, but necessary if you're building or remodeling.

> i don't
> know...i could get someone with a truck to haul the stuff away every so
> often, fuel the local economy and whatnot.

Don't overlook the convenience factor, especially when relying on others (paid
or not) to remove stuff or deliver. You'll become more realistic after you've
lost an entire day being a hostage to other people's schedules.

<...>
> for sure. holding a new credit card in my hand with what seemed like a high
> limit to me gave me this rush of possibility. it was like pure evil. at
> that moment, their power became clear. i always pay off fully each month.

Good girl. Don't ever slip up on that.

<...>
> ehhhh...at this point, i look at almost all majors as being useless to do
> anything except get a further degree. i'm a geography major (with an
> unrecognized human rights combined major). with that, all i can really do
> is go to teachers' college(eww kids) or get a masters degree.

Don't knock teaching, especially if you want to get a master's at someone else's
expense. We have programs here that pay for graduate education for teachers. The
trade-off is teaching while you're in the program. Big deal.

<...>
> that sounds neato. maybe i'll look into it, and add it to my housing file.
> you know, i could make like that bc family and just build a yurt. that
> sounds affordable. although i'd probably be eaten by cougars.

http://rastra.com/

The following building down here was made from Rastra, and they also have bale
buildings onsite.
http://www.oneworldtheatre.org/venue.html

>>>others are reluctant to give approval on anything that
>>>doesn't fit the status quo.
>>
>>Which can really bring down the resale value unless you find someone who
>>appreciates what you have.
>
> ehh...the straw bale houses i've seen out there look totally normal.

Looks don't always convince buyers, especially when you're asking them to pay
you hundreds of thousands of dollars.

> and if
> you tell them why it and all the other enviro-perks are good, and mention
> all the cash they'll save in energy costs, i think they'd go for it.

I know of one alternative house that was sold only to be removed from the
property because the new owner didn't like it, wasn't impressed with the
alternative construction, etc. The sellers had to absorb the cost of the loss of
the house during the sale, and ended up losing all their equity (money and sweat
since they built the house).

> besides, there should be enough environmentally-conscious openminded folks
> around by that time to have one want the house for it's unique qualities.

You can always hope.

> or maybe i'll just stay there until my strategic, old-age heroin suicide
> with my husband()

Perish the thought.

<...>
>>Hmmm... our workshops are a lot less than that. I attended one a few years
> ago.
>>It was $20 AND that included meals (supper night before, breakfast, lunch,
>>dinner on day of build).
>
> yeah, this one includes meals too, i think for the whole 3-someodd days. do
> you actually get to fully participate in everything for the 20$?

Yes. You pay to perform labor to build another person's house.

> i wish
> they had better student rates. that org puts on great stuff, but it's so
> damned expensive!

Look around before you fork over money. You may be able to learn while you help
build a SB house or church in Mexico, or some other developing country. Yeah,
you'd have to spring for a ticket, but you could combine it with a vacation.

<...>
> i can dream. who knows, maybe i will revert to my plan to skip town for bc
> after school...

You wouldn't be the first or last person to do that.