I feel it's wrong to wear leather, but is it also wrong to wear
second-hand leather? Are you still promoting the use of cows for
clothing us, or are you recycling and therefore doing something good?

"Deborah Emmett" > wrote in message
...
> I feel it's wrong to wear leather, but is it also wrong to wear
> second-hand leather? Are you still promoting the use of cows for
> clothing us, or are you recycling and therefore doing something good?
==================
By all means, buy all your products new and synthetic! The petro-chemical
industry needs your support. Afterall, look at all the 'good' they do
around the world with environmental damage.

Same with your diet. Make sure you continue to chow down on all the exotic
imported fruits and veggies. Afterall, their transportaion depends again on
the above industry that truely needs your support.
</sarcasm>

"rick etter" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Deborah Emmett" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I feel it's wrong to wear leather, but is it also wrong to wear
> > second-hand leather? Are you still promoting the use of cows for
> > clothing us, or are you recycling and therefore doing something good?
> ==================
> By all means, buy all your products new and synthetic! The
petro-chemical
> industry needs your support. Afterall, look at all the 'good' they do
> around the world with environmental damage.
>
> Same with your diet. Make sure you continue to chow down on all the
exotic
> imported fruits and veggies. Afterall, their transportaion depends again
on
> the above industry that truely needs your support.
> </sarcasm>

Deborah, you can safely ignore rick etter, he's a fool that jumps on newbies
with his monologue

To answer your question, if the item is genuinely second hand, and your
purchase doesn't generate a demand for a replacement, than it could be
better to use one (or more) of the three R's. (Reduce, Reuse and recycle.).

In this case you could be reducing demand for a synthetic article, and
recycling an existing article. Having said that I would not be comfortable
wearing leather items, and would seek alternatives, including second-hand
non leather items.


>
>

"Deborah Emmett" > wrote in message
...
> I feel it's wrong to wear leather, but is it also wrong to wear
> second-hand leather? Are you still promoting the use of cows for
> clothing us, or are you recycling and therefore doing something good?

Tough one. I often think much depends on whether you might be promoting a
fashion for leather by wearing it, even if it's 2nd hand. Personally I avoid
buying it now but I still have my old motorbike leather jacket from when I
was a teenager though I don't wear it now. The same argument goes for fur
because by wearing it you are encouraging others to do so too. Also it can
be very hard to get non leather shoes if you have problem feet as nothing
stretches as well with wear as leather. Whilst others may not notice if my
trainers are partly made with leather, I know, and that makes me
uncomfortable. I would not have a problem wearing the skins of an animal
which had died of natural causes, part from again, how it would look in
public.

Every vegetarian / vegan has to decide for themselves where to draw their
own personal line as regards consumption of animal by products. It is a
personal decision to make, one which should not be derided by others. Of
course, some people feel able to go further towards an animal free existence
than others. What matters to me is that a decision is consciously taken.
Although I am vegan, my partner loves meat. He buys free range and organic
meat whenever he can; it is his view that people can kill animals to eat but
he does not condone cruelty to animals or factory farming. I disagree with
his view about killing, but he will not stop eating meat because of my view.
This is his considered opinion which he will defend if challenged by
vegetarians, and I respect his conclusions. What upsets me is the
thoughtless and automatic consumption of meat by our society, because it is
the normal thing to do.
- Helen

"Zakhar" > wrote in message
...
>
> "rick etter" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Deborah Emmett" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I feel it's wrong to wear leather, but is it also wrong to wear
> > > second-hand leather? Are you still promoting the use of cows for
> > > clothing us, or are you recycling and therefore doing something good?
> > ==================
> > By all means, buy all your products new and synthetic! The
> petro-chemical
> > industry needs your support. Afterall, look at all the 'good' they do
> > around the world with environmental damage.
> >
> > Same with your diet. Make sure you continue to chow down on all the
> exotic
> > imported fruits and veggies. Afterall, their transportaion depends
again
> on
> > the above industry that truely needs your support.
> > </sarcasm>
>
> Deborah, you can safely ignore rick etter, he's a fool that jumps on
newbies
> with his monologue
=====================
You just don't like it because you have never been able to refute anything I
say. You're a loony with an agenda that you can't defend.


>
> To answer your question, if the item is genuinely second hand, and your
> purchase doesn't generate a demand for a replacement, than it could be
> better to use one (or more) of the three R's. (Reduce, Reuse and
recycle.).
>
> In this case you could be reducing demand for a synthetic article, and
> recycling an existing article. Having said that I would not be comfortable
> wearing leather items, and would seek alternatives, including second-hand
> non leather items.
>
>
> >
> >
>
>

Deborah Emmett wrote:
> I feel it's wrong to wear leather,

Why?

> but is it also wrong to wear
> second-hand leather?

Leather is already second-hand.

> Are you still promoting the use of cows for
> clothing us, or are you recycling and therefore doing something good?

Whom are you asking?

Suckhard wrote:
>>>I feel it's wrong to wear leather, but is it also wrong to wear
>>>second-hand leather? Are you still promoting the use of cows for
>>>clothing us, or are you recycling and therefore doing something good?
>>
>>==================
>>By all means, buy all your products new and synthetic! The
>
> petro-chemical
>
>>industry needs your support. Afterall, look at all the 'good' they do
>>around the world with environmental damage.
>>
>>Same with your diet. Make sure you continue to chow down on all the
>
> exotic
>
>>imported fruits and veggies. Afterall, their transportaion depends again
>
> on
>
>>the above industry that truely needs your support.
>></sarcasm>
>
>
> Deborah, you can safely ignore rick etter, he's a fool that jumps on newbies
> with his monologue

You just get upset when people speak the truth.

> To answer your question, if the item is genuinely second hand,

Leather is genuinely second-hand: the cow no longer needs it.

> and your purchase doesn't generate a demand for a replacement,

Is that something you consider when you waddle into Tesco's?

> than

THEN, you ESL student.

> it could be
> better to use one (or more) of the three R's. (Reduce, Reuse and recycle.).
>
> In this case you could be reducing demand for a synthetic article, and
> recycling an existing article. Having said that I would not be comfortable
> wearing leather items,

Why not? I could understand it here in Texas where it's warm most of the
year, but your country is cooler and wetter for more of the year.

> and would seek alternatives, including second-hand
> non leather items.

Do you usually buy used clothes?

Helen wrote:
>>I feel it's wrong to wear leather, but is it also wrong to wear
>>second-hand leather? Are you still promoting the use of cows for
>>clothing us, or are you recycling and therefore doing something good?
>
> Tough one. I often think much depends on whether you might be promoting a
> fashion for leather by wearing it, even if it's 2nd hand.

Are you such a trendsetter that other people would actually care what
you wear and take notice?

> Personally I avoid
> buying it now but I still have my old motorbike leather jacket from when I
> was a teenager though I don't wear it now. The same argument goes for fur
> because by wearing it you are encouraging others to do so too. Also it can
> be very hard to get non leather shoes if you have problem feet as nothing
> stretches as well with wear as leather. Whilst others may not notice if my
> trainers are partly made with leather, I know, and that makes me
> uncomfortable.

Why?

> I would not have a problem wearing the skins of an animal
> which had died of natural causes,

Cattle die of natural causes. It's natural for us to kill them and eat them.

> part from again, how it would look in
> public.

Why do you worry about what other people think?

> Every vegetarian / vegan has to decide for themselves where to draw their
> own personal line as regards consumption of animal by products. It is a
> personal decision to make, one which should not be derided by others. Of
> course, some people feel able to go further towards an animal free existence
> than others. What matters to me is that a decision is consciously taken.
> Although I am vegan, my partner loves meat. He buys free range and organic
> meat whenever he can; it is his view that people can kill animals to eat but
> he does not condone cruelty to animals or factory farming. I disagree with
> his view about killing, but he will not stop eating meat because of my view.
> This is his considered opinion which he will defend if challenged by
> vegetarians, and I respect his conclusions. What upsets me is the
> thoughtless and automatic consumption of meat by our society, because it is
> the normal thing to do.

Most people eat meat because they like it, "normal" or no.

Deborah Emmett wrote:

> I feel it's wrong to wear leather,

Why?

> but is it also wrong to wear second-hand leather?

As another poster has already pointed out to you, the
leather is already second-hand, having been used by the
cow, and also having been owned and then resold by the
tanner, the belt or shoe manufacturer, the distributor
and the retailer.

> Are you still promoting the use of cows for
> clothing us, or are you recycling and therefore doing something good?

The resale market for a commodity is integrally related
to the price of the product originally. The higher the
price that can be obtained reselling the item, the
higher the price someone will be willing to pay for the
item when new. What do you suppose are the
implications of this?

"flexmex" > wrote in message
...
> Suckhard wrote:
> >>>I feel it's wrong to wear leather, but is it also wrong to wear
> >>>second-hand leather? Are you still promoting the use of cows for
> >>>clothing us, or are you recycling and therefore doing something good?
> >>
> >>==================
> >>By all means, buy all your products new and synthetic! The
> >
> > petro-chemical
> >
> >>industry needs your support. Afterall, look at all the 'good' they do
> >>around the world with environmental damage.
> >>
> >>Same with your diet. Make sure you continue to chow down on all the
> >
> > exotic
> >
> >>imported fruits and veggies. Afterall, their transportaion depends
again
> >
> > on
> >
> >>the above industry that truely needs your support.
> >></sarcasm>
> >
> >
> > Deborah, you can safely ignore rick etter, he's a fool that jumps on
newbies
> > with his monologue
>
> You just get upset when people speak the truth.

Quite the opposite.

>
> > To answer your question, if the item is genuinely second hand,
>
> Leather is genuinely second-hand: the cow no longer needs it.
>
> > and your purchase doesn't generate a demand for a replacement,
>
> Is that something you consider when you waddle into Tesco's?

We're talking about buying second hand leather goods, not Tesco's.

>
> > than
>
> THEN, you ESL student.

OK, texan pansy.

>
> > it could be
> > better to use one (or more) of the three R's. (Reduce, Reuse and
recycle.).
> >
> > In this case you could be reducing demand for a synthetic article, and
> > recycling an existing article. Having said that I would not be
comfortable
> > wearing leather items,
>
> Why not? I could understand it here in Texas where it's warm most of the
> year, but your country is cooler and wetter for more of the year.

Too ****ing hot in texarse.

>
> > and would seek alternatives, including second-hand
> > non leather items.
>
> Do you usually buy used clothes?

I do buy second hand clothes, but not usually, as there's not that great
range available. I don't have a self imposed stigma from using or wearing
second hand goods. I think e-bay's just great for all sorts of second hand
stuff, buying and selling.



>

Dear "Usual Suspect" at Support Our Troops,

Clearly you do not understand what a vegan is or why they try so hard to
avoid animal products. I have looked through your responses to other
people's postings and have decided that answering you would be pointless
because you'll come back with some twaddle. May I suggest you carry on with
your life and I'll carry on with mine. By the way, if you support war so
much, why don't you join the army and go to Iraq? Over there you'll find
lots of blood, guts and carnage to entertain you.

To users of Microsoft Outlook, check under the "Message" menu at the top of
your screen and you'll find a wonderful command called "Block Sender". Click
on the name of anyone who bores you on newsgroups and select this command.
Yipee! He'll never bore you again!

- Helen

"Helen" > wrote in message
...
> Dear "Usual Suspect" at Support Our Troops,
>
> Clearly you do not understand what a vegan is or why they try so hard to
> avoid animal products. I have looked through your responses to other
> people's postings and have decided that answering you would be pointless
> because you'll come back with some twaddle. May I suggest you carry on
with
> your life and I'll carry on with mine. By the way, if you support war so
> much, why don't you join the army and go to Iraq? Over there you'll find
> lots of blood, guts and carnage to entertain you.
>
> To users of Microsoft Outlook, check under the "Message" menu at the top
of
> your screen and you'll find a wonderful command called "Block Sender".
Click
> on the name of anyone who bores you on newsgroups and select this command.
> Yipee! He'll never bore you again!
=====================
LOL What you really mean is that you then won't have to be bohered with the
truth anymore, right killer?

Helen wrote:

> Dear "Usual Suspect" at Support Our Troops,
>
> Clearly you do not understand what a vegan is or why they try so hard to
> avoid animal products.

Actually, he understands it full well, Helen, and as I
played a big role in helping him to see it, so do I.

"vegans" try to avoid animal products for an entire
shabby edifice of reasons. First, they begin with a
logical fallacy, the fallacy of Denying the Antecedent;
you can find lots of web pages that give a more
complete elaboration of Denying the Antecedent by doing
a search in Google or whatever search engine you
prefer. The particular fallacy, as employed by
"vegans", goes like this:

If I consume animal parts, I cause animals to
suffer and die.

I do not consume animal parts;

therefore, I do not cause animals to suffer and die.

The undeniable fact of collateral animal deaths in
agriculture -- animals being chopped to bits by farm
machinery, killed by pesticides, deliberately
exterminated at food storage facilities -- is
sufficient to prove that EVEN THOUGH "vegans" don't
consume animal parts, they nonetheless cause animal
suffering an death, because they consume products whose
productions causes it.

After "vegans" have been informed about collateral
deaths -- strangely, they never know about it until
some omnivore tells them about it -- they then revert
to a much weaker argument. They claim either to be
"minimizing" their toll, even while admitting that some
toll is "inevitable" (it isn't); or, once it is shown
to them that they aren't even "minimizing", they claim
more weakly still to be "reducing" the toll, even if
not to a minimum.

Yet...having been shown that the avoidance of animal
parts in what they consume does NOT logically lead to a
lower death toll, they *still* engage in what I have
helpfully labeled The Irrational Search for Micrograms
of Animal Parts, usually shortened to the Search for
Micrograms. You seem intelligent enough, so I'm
certain you instantly know what I'm talking about:
this weird, obsessive tendency by all "vegans" to
scrutinize the things they consume, especially food
items, for so much as a microgram of animal parts in
it. It is obvious, to any objective viewer, that this
search is religious in nature, and wholly irrational.
While the "vegan" might find - "Aha!" - that some
product he consumes contains some microgram of, say,
gelatin, and so he excludes it from his diet
henceforth, in the meantime he is consuming rice by the
bucketful, and rice is notoriously lethal to animals in
its production.

Here, check out this link about combines harvesting
grains:
http://www.bds.org.uk/Research/Silag...entperrier.htm

Do you still think being "vegan", and ensuring that not
so much as a microgram of animal parts is in your food,
NECESSARILY means animals don't die, or that you're
"minimizing" animal death and suffering?

[...]

>
> To users of Microsoft Outlook, check under the "Message" menu at the top of
> your screen and you'll find a wonderful command called "Block Sender". Click
> on the name of anyone who bores you on newsgroups and select this command.
> Yipee! He'll never bore you again!

So...you prefer to be willfully ignorant and blind.
You're typical, Helen -- that's what "veganism" is all
about, willful blindness.

"Jonathan Ball" > wrote in message
ink.net...


Helen,

Jonathan Ball and Usual Suspect are like the "Pinky and Perky" of
newsgroups, except that they're not funny at all. Just tell him where to go
or ignore him. ~~jonnie~~ has a particular penchant for verbally abusing
women, and ~~useless~~ usually follows suit.

Suckhard wrote:
<...>
>>You just get upset when people speak the truth.
>
> Quite the opposite.

See what I mean? I state a truth and you reject it. You do that in every
newsgroup.

>>>To answer your question, if the item is genuinely second hand,
>>
>>Leather is genuinely second-hand: the cow no longer needs it.
>>>and your purchase doesn't generate a demand for a replacement,
>>
>>Is that something you consider when you waddle into Tesco's?
>
> We're talking about buying second hand leather goods, not Tesco's.

It was a general consideration: Do you consider "demand for a
replacement" when you waddle your fat arse into Tesco's?

<...>
>>>and would seek alternatives, including second-hand
>>>non leather items.
>>
>>Do you usually buy used clothes?
>
> I do buy second hand clothes, but not usually, as there's not that great
> range available. I don't have a self imposed stigma from using or wearing
> second hand goods. I think e-bay's just great for all sorts of second hand
> stuff, buying and selling.

That's the most substantive thing you've written in a year. It's not
saying much, but maybe it's a start. I'm not going to hold my breath,
though.

Helen wrote:
> Dear "Usual Suspect" at Support Our Troops,
>
> Clearly you do not understand what a vegan is

I do.

> or why they try so hard to
> avoid animal products.

I do.

> I have looked through your responses to other
> people's postings and have decided that answering you would be pointless
> because you'll come back with some twaddle.

I prefer to engage others with facts. Perhaps you should go through
Google's archives of my posts to learn my dietary history before you
make a bigger ass of yourself. While you're at it, you'll find my
following vegan recipes:
http://snipurl.com/4byu
http://snipurl.com/4byv
http://snipurl.com/4byw
http://snipurl.com/4byx

And my reviews and/or recommendations of vegan restaurants:
http://snipurl.com/4bz0
http://snipurl.com/4bz3
http://snipurl.com/4bz4

> May I suggest you carry on with
> your life and I'll carry on with mine.

May I suggest you learn how to deal with other people?

> By the way, if you support war so much,
> why don't you join the army and go to Iraq?

I've already served my country, and yours. If you oppose your lads so
much, why don't you join al-Qaeda and the other foreigners blowing
themselves up in Iraq?

> Over there you'll find

....mostly grateful people, recently liberated from a thug-dictator whose
bloody oppression would've continued unabated -- for at least another
generation through his thug-sons -- if pacifists like you had your way.
Perhaps you should check polls of what the Iraqis think of us before you
assume that terror

> lots of blood, guts and carnage to entertain you.

Ma'am, war is not about entertainment. Just ask your gran about it and
be grateful you're not writing in German today.

> To users of Microsoft Outlook, check under the "Message" menu at the top of
> your screen and you'll find a wonderful command called "Block Sender". Click
> on the name of anyone who bores you on newsgroups and select this command.

Hmmm... is it working now?

> Yipee! He'll never bore you again!

Is it really that easy?

I wrote under another nym:
<...>
> Perhaps you should check polls of what the Iraqis think of us before you
> assume that terror

Should finish: [...before you assume that terror]ISTS and their bombs
speak for everyone. They don't. They speak only for destruction,
tyranny, and hate, not for peace, democracy, and hope. The Iraqi people
deserve better than you wanted to give them. Now they have a chance at a
brighter future, and so do we.

<...>

"flexmex, ~~jonnies~~ flexible "associate"" > wrote in
message ...
> Suckhard wrote:
> <...>
> >>You just get upset when people speak the truth.
> >
> > Quite the opposite.
>
> See what I mean? I state a truth and you reject it. You do that in every
> newsgroup.

No, you write shit, I correct it.

>
> >>>To answer your question, if the item is genuinely second hand,
> >>
> >>Leather is genuinely second-hand: the cow no longer needs it.
> >>>and your purchase doesn't generate a demand for a replacement,
> >>
> >>Is that something you consider when you waddle into Tesco's?
> >
> > We're talking about buying second hand leather goods, not Tesco's.
>
> It was a general consideration: Do you consider "demand for a
> replacement" when you waddle your fat arse into Tesco's?

No, because virtually everything I buy there will be replaced. You SHOULD
know that dummy.

BTW I've not got a fat arse.

>
> <...>
> >>>and would seek alternatives, including second-hand
> >>>non leather items.
> >>
> >>Do you usually buy used clothes?
> >
> > I do buy second hand clothes, but not usually, as there's not that great
> > range available. I don't have a self imposed stigma from using or
wearing
> > second hand goods. I think e-bay's just great for all sorts of second
hand
> > stuff, buying and selling.
>
> That's the most substantive thing you've written in a year. It's not
> saying much, but maybe it's a start. I'm not going to hold my breath,
> though.

Hold your breath for 30 minutes, and do us all a favour.

>

Suckhard wrote:
>><...>
>>
>>>>You just get upset when people speak the truth.
>>>
>>>Quite the opposite.
>>
>>See what I mean? I state a truth and you reject it. You do that in every
>>newsgroup.
>
> No,

Yes.

> you write shit,

....that your own intellectual limitations forbid you from comprehending.

> I correct it.

Correcting someone requires substance. You lack that.

<...>