"rick etter" > wrote in message
...
>
> "krakatoa" > wrote in message
> news:xyb_b.39044$Xp.175690@attbi_s54...
> >
>
> snippage...
>
> > > > A vegan doesn't eat meat, dairy or eggs. Where does loving animals
> come
> > > into
> > > > the picture?
> > > =====================
> > > Veganism is not a diet fool. try learning about it before you make
> > yourself
> > > look even more foolish. See below for the real definition and
meaning.
> > > Obviously you are not a vegan.
> >
> > Okay - I'm obviously not vegan. Who cares.
> > I was talking about the vegan diet anyway, not the ethical aspects of
> being
> > a vegan.
> > =======================
> Then why were you trying to pretend to be one?

Again - I was talking about the vegan diet. Weather or not I'm vegan really
has no
bearing on the discussion at hand.

>
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Main Entry: veg·an
> > > > Pronunciation: 'vE-g&n also 'vA- also 've-j&n or -"jan
> > > > Function: noun
> > > > Etymology: by contraction from vegetarian
> > > > : a strict vegetarian who consumes no animal food or dairy products;
> > also
> > > :
> > > > one who abstains from using animal products (as leather)
> > > =======================
> > > LOL A definition made up by those that can't follow the real
> definition.
> > > Before you claim to be something, why don't you research what it
really
> > > means. You do know that this is just a made up word, don't you? Made
> up
> > by
> > > Donald Watson.
> >
> > Every word in every language on the face of the planet is "made up".
> ====================
> Not in this sense. Many have roots from various language. Many are just
> 'made' up as we go.
>
>
> >
> > > "...Veganism is a way of living which excludes all forms of
exploitation
> > of,
> > > and cruelty to, the animal kingdom, and includes a reverence for life.
> It
> > > applies to the practice of living on the products of the plant kingdom
> to
> > > the exclusion of flesh, fish, fowl, eggs, honey, animal milk and its
> > > derivatives, and encourages the use of alternatives for all
commodities
> > > derived wholly or in part from animals..."
> > >
> > > "...Contrary to vegetarianism, veganism was founded on deeply held
> ethical
> > > convictions that espouse a dynamic respect for all life. This
philosophy
> > > unifies vegans everywhere, regardless of superficial differences..."
> > > "...People who merely consume no animal products, including no eggs,
> > > animals' milk, or honey are not vegans; they are "total vegetarians."
> > Until
> > > one's commitment extends beyond the scope of food, the word "vegan"
does
> > not
> > > apply, regardless of how the media or certain individuals wish to
employ
> > > it..."
> > > http://www.vegsource.com/joanne/qa/qatypes.htm
> >
> > A vegan, according to the definition given by the American Vegan
Society,
> is
> > someone who lives "solely on the products of the plant kingdom, to the
> > exclusion of flesh, fish, fowl, animal milk, all dairy products, eggs,
> > honey, and all other foods of animal origin."
> ============================
> Why leave out the rest of their definition? Dishonesty get the better of
> you, as usual for vegans and their wannabes?
> "...Veganism is an advanced way of living in accordance with Reverence for
> Life, recognizing the rights of all living creatures, and extending to
them
> the compassion, kindness, and justice exemplified in the Golden Rule..."
>
> Again, you don't even come close, killer.

Dishonest?

I left it out because it's not relevant when talking about the vegan diet.

This is the definition of veganISM. The vegan diet is just that - a vegan
diet.

See - two seperate terms:

What is Vegan?
VEGANS (pronounced VEE-guns) Live on products of the plant kingdom.

Veganism is compassion in action. It is a philosophy, diet, and lifestyle.

"krakatoa" > wrote in message
news:ZCd_b.105676$uV3.587365@attbi_s51...
>
> "rick etter" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "krakatoa" > wrote in message
> > news:8Pb_b.40202$4o.57691@attbi_s52...
> > >
> > > "rick etter" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "krakatoa" > wrote in message
> > > > news:kka_b.103093$uV3.584867@attbi_s51...
> > > > >
> > > > > "rick etter" > wrote in message
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > snippage...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > No, it's not. Check any of the abundant veg(n sites on the net.
> > they
> > > > > will
> > > > > > all back up what i say. Vegan foods by themselves do not
provide
> > > allthe
> > > > > > nutrients you need.
> > > > >
> > > > > Back up what you say? You're not saying anything...
> > > > ==================
> > > > Again, just check any of the many vegan sites that are truly
> interested
> > in
> > > > your maintaining your health. They'll say the same thing, the food
> > itself
> > > > will not provide what you need. Is that really that hard for you?
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > What does "by themselves they are not" mean?
> > > > -----------------
> > > > Just what it says. Plant foods do not provide you with everything
you
> > > need,
> > > > period.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Never said they did. I said a vegan diet can provide you everything
you
> > > need.
> > =======================
> > Not without non-food supplements.
>
> So?
====================
It proves that 'vegan foods' are not the great thing you'd like to claim.
Try to keep up there killer. Must be your diet that has your 2 remaining
braincells rattled, eh?


>
> > > > >
> > > > > You can have a perfectly healthy diet that contains no animal
> > products.
> > > > > That would be considered a vegan diet. Supplements can be part of
a
> > > vegan
> > > > > diet, and it would still be a vegan diet.
> > > > ================================
> > > > And yet they are made in ways that cause even more animal death and
> > > > suffering. Processed foods and supplements may be 'vegan' in the
> sense
> > > that
> > > > they have very little in the way of animal bits in them, but their
> > > > processing can and does cause animal death and suffering. Placing
> your
> > > > dependence on the petro-chemical industry while decrying the death
of
> > meat
> > > > animals is just more vegan hypocrisy. Some selectivly choosen
meats
> > > eaten
> > > > rarely will provide what you need, and can reduce your overall
impact
> on
> > > > animal death and suffering to boot! But then, you won't consider
that
> > > > because you have your simple rule for simple minds, right? 'Eat no
> > meat'.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Oh yeah, vegan multivitamins are the scourge of the animal kingdom...
> > ====================
> > More so than some meats.
>
> Examples? Evidence? References?
=====================
Easy, fool. Any game meat will cause less animal death and suffering and
environmental damge than any chemical industry product. Are you really that
stupid, or do your work real hard at it?


>
> > >
> > > I don't eat meat because I made a choice not to. You want to eat meat?
> Go
> > > ahead!
> > > I don't care. I don't have any 'rules'.
> > >
> > > To paraphrase Bad Religion:
> > >
> > > "I do what I want to do - so hooray for me - and **** you."
> > ====================
> > Ahhh yes, the last resort. can'r refute what I say, so resort to foul
> > language. How predictable...
>
> You didn't say anything for me to refute - you personally attacked me.
> Not a last resort...just a reaction to being called 'simple minded'.
=================
Because you are. That's why you took it so personal, you realize the truth
of the statement. That aside, there was plenty for you to try to refute,
but you choose to ignore it because you can't.

>
>
> > >
> > > I made a personal choice, if I'm a hypocrite - so what. Everyone on
this
> > > planet is
> > > a hypocrite in one way or another. Everyone.
> > >
> > > Look at the great drug addict Rush Limbaugh for example.
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > So what am I missing here? What do you have to add to a vegan diet
> to
> > > make
> > > > > it healthy?
> > > > ========================================
> > > > Meat, or supplements. The veggies themselves do not provide all the
> > > > nutrients you need. An omnivorous diet does.
> > >
> > > Never said veggies provide all the nutrients you need. I said a vegan
> diet
> > > does.
> > >
> > > Like I said: a vegan diet with supplements is still a vegan diet.
> > ======================
> > No, not when you look up the meaning of the term, killer.
>
> *Defenition* of the term:
>
> Consume no animal products. This includes supplements that contain no
animal
> products.
>
> People can attach whatever meaning to it they want - the definition is a
> separate thing.
> ===================
People can make up what they want to make themselves feel good. that
doesn't mean that that makes the definition different from what it really
is.
All you have is a simple rule for your simple mind.

Now, go have that nice blood drenched breakfast, killer.
>
>
>

"krakatoa" > wrote in message
news:6xd_b.40430$Xp.182007@attbi_s54...
>
> "rick etter" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "krakatoa" > wrote in message
> > newsyc_b.383264$na.578108@attbi_s04...
> > >
> > > "rick etter" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "krakatoa" > wrote in message
> > > > news:kka_b.103093$uV3.584867@attbi_s51...
> > > > >
> > > > > "rick etter" > wrote in message
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > snippage...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > No, it's not. Check any of the abundant veg(n sites on the net.
> > they
> > > > > will
> > > > > > all back up what i say. Vegan foods by themselves do not
provide
> > > allthe
> > > > > > nutrients you need.
> > > > >
> > > > > Back up what you say? You're not saying anything...
> > > > ==================
> > > > Again, just check any of the many vegan sites that are truly
> interested
> > in
> > > > your maintaining your health. They'll say the same thing, the food
> > itself
> > > > will not provide what you need. Is that really that hard for you?
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > What does "by themselves they are not" mean?
> > > > -----------------
> > > > Just what it says. Plant foods do not provide you with everything
you
> > > need,
> > > > period.
> > >
> > > Let me also ass that this wasn't always true. The only thing you
really
> > > can't get
> > > from plant sources is vitamin B-12.
> > >
> > > Here is a snippet from an article on the Physicians For Responsible
> > Medicine
> > > site:
> > >
> > > "Vitamin B12 is a genuine issue for vegans, although very easy to deal
> > with.
> > > Traditionally, getting this vitamin has not been difficult. In
cultures
> > with
> > > plant-based diets, the microorganisms that produce B12 grow in the
soil
> > and
> > > cling to root vegetables, and traditional Asian miso and tempeh
contain
> > > large amounts of the vitamin. But with industrialized production and
> > > improved hygiene, this source of B12 has been eliminated. Meat-eaters
> get
> > > B12 through microorganisms living in the animals they eat."
> > >
> > > http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/v...ian_foods.html
> > ====================
> > LOL you just proved what I said.
>
> So you said that at one time a vegan diet with no supplements provided you
> all
> of the nutrients you need, but now we should supplement B-12?
====================
You never ate asian foods fool. And, the only reason they had b12 was for
the same reason you could skip the supplements now by never washing your
hands. those foods didn't contain b12, they had b12 on them from s**t.
Now, if you'd care to never wash your hands, and or grow your foods with
your s**t, then you too could forego any supplement or fortification.


>
> I'm glad I could prove you right!
>
> So finally, we all agree - a vegan diet can be healthy for children.
=====================
Nope. I suggest you reread for comprehension, killer.
All the reliable sources are non-food. You really are too stupid for this,
aren't you?



>
>
>

"krakatoa" > wrote in message
news:WId_b.40509$Xp.182273@attbi_s54...
>
> "rick etter" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "krakatoa" > wrote in message
> > news:xyb_b.39044$Xp.175690@attbi_s54...
> > >
> >
> > snippage...
> >
> > > > > A vegan doesn't eat meat, dairy or eggs. Where does loving animals
> > come
> > > > into
> > > > > the picture?
> > > > =====================
> > > > Veganism is not a diet fool. try learning about it before you make
> > > yourself
> > > > look even more foolish. See below for the real definition and
> meaning.
> > > > Obviously you are not a vegan.
> > >
> > > Okay - I'm obviously not vegan. Who cares.
> > > I was talking about the vegan diet anyway, not the ethical aspects of
> > being
> > > a vegan.
> > > =======================
> > Then why were you trying to pretend to be one?
>
> Again - I was talking about the vegan diet. Weather or not I'm vegan
really
> has no
> bearing on the discussion at hand.
>
> >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Main Entry: veg·an
> > > > > Pronunciation: 'vE-g&n also 'vA- also 've-j&n or -"jan
> > > > > Function: noun
> > > > > Etymology: by contraction from vegetarian
> > > > > : a strict vegetarian who consumes no animal food or dairy
products;
> > > also
> > > > :
> > > > > one who abstains from using animal products (as leather)
> > > > =======================
> > > > LOL A definition made up by those that can't follow the real
> > definition.
> > > > Before you claim to be something, why don't you research what it
> really
> > > > means. You do know that this is just a made up word, don't you?
Made
> > up
> > > by
> > > > Donald Watson.
> > >
> > > Every word in every language on the face of the planet is "made up".
> > ====================
> > Not in this sense. Many have roots from various language. Many are
just
> > 'made' up as we go.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > "...Veganism is a way of living which excludes all forms of
> exploitation
> > > of,
> > > > and cruelty to, the animal kingdom, and includes a reverence for
life.
> > It
> > > > applies to the practice of living on the products of the plant
kingdom
> > to
> > > > the exclusion of flesh, fish, fowl, eggs, honey, animal milk and its
> > > > derivatives, and encourages the use of alternatives for all
> commodities
> > > > derived wholly or in part from animals..."
> > > >
> > > > "...Contrary to vegetarianism, veganism was founded on deeply held
> > ethical
> > > > convictions that espouse a dynamic respect for all life. This
> philosophy
> > > > unifies vegans everywhere, regardless of superficial differences..."
> > > > "...People who merely consume no animal products, including no eggs,
> > > > animals' milk, or honey are not vegans; they are "total
vegetarians."
> > > Until
> > > > one's commitment extends beyond the scope of food, the word "vegan"
> does
> > > not
> > > > apply, regardless of how the media or certain individuals wish to
> employ
> > > > it..."
> > > > http://www.vegsource.com/joanne/qa/qatypes.htm
> > >
> > > A vegan, according to the definition given by the American Vegan
> Society,
> > is
> > > someone who lives "solely on the products of the plant kingdom, to the
> > > exclusion of flesh, fish, fowl, animal milk, all dairy products, eggs,
> > > honey, and all other foods of animal origin."
> > ============================
> > Why leave out the rest of their definition? Dishonesty get the better
of
> > you, as usual for vegans and their wannabes?
> > "...Veganism is an advanced way of living in accordance with Reverence
for
> > Life, recognizing the rights of all living creatures, and extending to
> them
> > the compassion, kindness, and justice exemplified in the Golden Rule..."
> >
> > Again, you don't even come close, killer.
>
> Dishonest?
>
> I left it out because it's not relevant when talking about the vegan diet.
>
> This is the definition of veganISM. The vegan diet is just that - a vegan
> diet.
>
> See - two seperate terms:
>
> What is Vegan?
> VEGANS (pronounced VEE-guns) Live on products of the plant kingdom.
===============
What part of "...People who merely consume no animal products, including no
eggs, animals' milk, or honey are not vegan..." don't you understand?


>
> Veganism is compassion in action. It is a philosophy, diet, and lifestyle.
======================
Reread the site, fool. Even they take you to task for claiming to be vegan
and only following a diet. You really aren't up to this are you? Must be
something lacking in your diet, eh killer?


>
>
>
>
>

"rick etter" > wrote in message
...
>
> =====================
> Easy, fool. Any game meat will cause less animal death and suffering and
> environmental damge than any chemical industry product. Are you really
that
> stupid, or do your work real hard at it?
>

In other words you have no references to back up your baseless claim that
the production
of vegan multivitamins is causing endless animal suffering. Not
surprising...

Resorting to name calling isn't going to prove your point, but I guess what
you're really trying
to do is deflect the fact that you are without any proof to validate your
moronic statement.

"rick etter" > wrote in message
...
>
> > I'm glad I could prove you right!
> >
> > So finally, we all agree - a vegan diet can be healthy for children.
> =====================
> Nope. I suggest you reread for comprehension, killer.
> All the reliable sources are non-food. You really are too stupid for
this,
> aren't you?
>

Who cares if they are non food based? It's still vegan.

"krakatoa" > wrote in message
news:%Ff_b.106350$uV3.589358@attbi_s51...
>
> "rick etter" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > =====================
> > Easy, fool. Any game meat will cause less animal death and suffering
and
> > environmental damge than any chemical industry product. Are you really
> that
> > stupid, or do your work real hard at it?
> >
>
> In other words you have no references to back up your baseless claim that
> the production
> of vegan multivitamins is causing endless animal suffering. Not
> surprising...
============================
No fool. I'd think even you could understand and look up modern production
techniques and their environmental impact. I guess i was wrong, and you
really are just too stupid for this.


>
> Resorting to name calling isn't going to prove your point, but I guess
what
> you're really trying
=====================
ROTFLMAO This from the only one in the discussion that has rsorted to foul
language! You really are a hoot!!


> to do is deflect the fact that you are without any proof to validate your
> moronic statement.
=======================
Nope, just proves even further how ignorant and brainwashed you are.


>
>
>
>
>

"krakatoa" > wrote in message
news:QIf_b.42347$4o.59797@attbi_s52...
>
> "rick etter" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > > I'm glad I could prove you right!
> > >
> > > So finally, we all agree - a vegan diet can be healthy for children.
> > =====================
> > Nope. I suggest you reread for comprehension, killer.
> > All the reliable sources are non-food. You really are too stupid for
> this,
> > aren't you?
> >
>
> Who cares if they are non food based? It's still vegan.
=======================
You still don't understand the real concept here do you? It's hypocrisy
fool. You'll destory whatever amount of the environemnt it takes to get
your supplements just to keep from eating a perfectly natural food that can
cause none. You really are almost braindead, aren't you?

have you decided to go all the way and just quit washing your hands,
killer? that would be the tryuly vegan thing to do. But then, being vegan
to you isn't really about doing all you can to save animals and the
environement, is it killer? You prove that with each and every ignorant
post to usenet.

Now, go have that nice blood-drenched breakfast, fool.


btw, are you too stupid to comment on other parts of the posts, or just too
dishonest to annotate your snipping?

>
>

"rick etter" > wrote in message
...
>
> "krakatoa" > wrote in message
> news:%Ff_b.106350$uV3.589358@attbi_s51...
> >
> > "rick etter" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > =====================
> > > Easy, fool. Any game meat will cause less animal death and suffering
> and
> > > environmental damge than any chemical industry product. Are you
really
> > that
> > > stupid, or do your work real hard at it?
> > >
> >
> > In other words you have no references to back up your baseless claim
that
> > the production
> > of vegan multivitamins is causing endless animal suffering. Not
> > surprising...
> ============================
> No fool. I'd think even you could understand and look up modern
production
> techniques and their environmental impact. I guess i was wrong, and you
> really are just too stupid for this.
>

That's what I thought - you can't back up your bullshit.
If I'm too stupid too look it up, why can't you enlighten me with a link,
genius?

Just one [scientific] link about how vegan vitamin production is causing
animal suffering.

I'm waiting...

>
> >
> > Resorting to name calling isn't going to prove your point, but I guess
> what
> > you're really trying
> =====================
> ROTFLMAO This from the only one in the discussion that has rsorted to
foul
> language! You really are a hoot!!
>

Foul language and name calling are two different things you ignorant ****.
<---- name calling

> > to do is deflect the fact that you are without any proof to validate
your
> > moronic statement.
> =======================
> Nope, just proves even further how ignorant and brainwashed you are.

I'm still waiting for you to enlighten me.

"rick etter" > wrote in message
...
>
> "krakatoa" > wrote in message
> news:QIf_b.42347$4o.59797@attbi_s52...
> >
> > "rick etter" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > > I'm glad I could prove you right!
> > > >
> > > > So finally, we all agree - a vegan diet can be healthy for children.
> > > =====================
> > > Nope. I suggest you reread for comprehension, killer.
> > > All the reliable sources are non-food. You really are too stupid for
> > this,
> > > aren't you?
> > >
> >
> > Who cares if they are non food based? It's still vegan.
> =======================
> You still don't understand the real concept here do you? It's hypocrisy
> fool. You'll destory whatever amount of the environemnt it takes to get
> your supplements just to keep from eating a perfectly natural food that
can
> cause none. You really are almost braindead, aren't you?
>
> have you decided to go all the way and just quit washing your hands,
> killer? that would be the tryuly vegan thing to do. But then, being
vegan
> to you isn't really about doing all you can to save animals and the
> environement, is it killer? You prove that with each and every ignorant
> post to usenet.
>
> Now, go have that nice blood-drenched breakfast, fool.
>

I'm making ignorant posts?
You're a troll. You hang around a vegan food group to pick on vegans.

I'm still waiting for some proof that vegan vitamin production is destroying
the environment.

If you can't back it up - stop spewing it.

>
> btw, are you too stupid to comment on other parts of the posts, or just
too
> dishonest to annotate your snipping?
>

I'm too dishonest.

"krakatoa" > wrote in message
news:8kg_b.41225$Xp.185817@attbi_s54...
>
> "rick etter" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "krakatoa" > wrote in message
> > news:%Ff_b.106350$uV3.589358@attbi_s51...
> > >
> > > "rick etter" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > =====================
> > > > Easy, fool. Any game meat will cause less animal death and
suffering
> > and
> > > > environmental damge than any chemical industry product. Are you
> really
> > > that
> > > > stupid, or do your work real hard at it?
> > > >
> > >
> > > In other words you have no references to back up your baseless claim
> that
> > > the production
> > > of vegan multivitamins is causing endless animal suffering. Not
> > > surprising...
> > ============================
> > No fool. I'd think even you could understand and look up modern
> production
> > techniques and their environmental impact. I guess i was wrong, and you
> > really are just too stupid for this.
> >
>
> That's what I thought - you can't back up your bullshit.
> If I'm too stupid too look it up, why can't you enlighten me with a link,
> genius?
>
> Just one [scientific] link about how vegan vitamin production is causing
> animal suffering.
>
> I'm waiting...
=================
Thanks for proving yet again you ignorance and incompetence. You really are
too easy..


>
> >
> > >
> > > Resorting to name calling isn't going to prove your point, but I guess
> > what
> > > you're really trying
> > =====================
> > ROTFLMAO This from the only one in the discussion that has rsorted to
> foul
> > language! You really are a hoot!!
> >
>
> Foul language and name calling are two different things you ignorant ****.
> <---- name calling
>
> > > to do is deflect the fact that you are without any proof to validate
> your
> > > moronic statement.
> > =======================
> > Nope, just proves even further how ignorant and brainwashed you are.
>
> I'm still waiting for you to enlighten me.
====================
Already have, you prefer to remain terminally ignorant, killer.

>
>

"krakatoa" > wrote in message
newsmg_b.106542$uV3.589765@attbi_s51...
>
> "rick etter" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "krakatoa" > wrote in message
> > news:QIf_b.42347$4o.59797@attbi_s52...
> > >
> > > "rick etter" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > > I'm glad I could prove you right!
> > > > >
> > > > > So finally, we all agree - a vegan diet can be healthy for
children.
> > > > =====================
> > > > Nope. I suggest you reread for comprehension, killer.
> > > > All the reliable sources are non-food. You really are too stupid
for
> > > this,
> > > > aren't you?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Who cares if they are non food based? It's still vegan.
> > =======================
> > You still don't understand the real concept here do you? It's hypocrisy
> > fool. You'll destory whatever amount of the environemnt it takes to get
> > your supplements just to keep from eating a perfectly natural food that
> can
> > cause none. You really are almost braindead, aren't you?
> >
> > have you decided to go all the way and just quit washing your hands,
> > killer? that would be the tryuly vegan thing to do. But then, being
> vegan
> > to you isn't really about doing all you can to save animals and the
> > environement, is it killer? You prove that with each and every
ignorant
> > post to usenet.
> >
> > Now, go have that nice blood-drenched breakfast, fool.
> >
>
> I'm making ignorant posts?
> You're a troll. You hang around a vegan food group to pick on vegans.
==================
You don't know the meaning of either term, fool. You're no vegan, and I'm
no troll.


>
> I'm still waiting for some proof that vegan vitamin production is
destroying
> the environment.
>
> If you can't back it up - stop spewing it.
> ====================
Try being honest for a change, killer.

> >
> > btw, are you too stupid to comment on other parts of the posts, or just
> too
> > dishonest to annotate your snipping?
> >
>
> I'm too dishonest.
==================
Yes...

>
>

"krakatoa" > wrote in message
news:8kg_b.41225$Xp.185817@attbi_s54...
>
> "rick etter" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "krakatoa" > wrote in message
> > news:%Ff_b.106350$uV3.589358@attbi_s51...
> > >
> > > "rick etter" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > =====================
> > > > Easy, fool. Any game meat will cause less animal death and
suffering
> > and
> > > > environmental damge than any chemical industry product. Are you
> really
> > > that
> > > > stupid, or do your work real hard at it?
> > > >
> > >
> > > In other words you have no references to back up your baseless claim
> that
> > > the production
> > > of vegan multivitamins is causing endless animal suffering. Not
> > > surprising...
> > ============================
> > No fool. I'd think even you could understand and look up modern
> production
> > techniques and their environmental impact. I guess i was wrong, and you
> > really are just too stupid for this.
> >
>
> That's what I thought - you can't back up your bullshit.
> If I'm too stupid too look it up, why can't you enlighten me with a link,
> genius?
====================
You can't find any links that show environmental impct from industry
prodution, power production, transportation of raw materials, mining of raw
materials.
You really think none of that causes any animal death and suffering, nor
environment damage?

I know that criticle thinking is really hard for your 2 remaining
braincells, but give it a try sometime.

In the meantime, maybe you can post us with all the proof of how a vegan
diet doesn't cause any of the death, suffering and destruction.


>
> Just one [scientific] link about how vegan vitamin production is causing
> animal suffering.
>
> I'm waiting...
=========================
Why? Can't think for yourself? I know the government waste lots of money
on stupid studies, but do you really think that there all some for animals
and vitamins?
Criticle thinking is a stretch for you I know, but do try to think things
out logoically rather than with the emothions and thinking of a 5 year old.


>
> >
> > >
> > > Resorting to name calling isn't going to prove your point, but I guess
> > what
> > > you're really trying
> > =====================
> > ROTFLMAO This from the only one in the discussion that has rsorted to
> foul
> > language! You really are a hoot!!
> >
>
> Foul language and name calling are two different things you ignorant ****.
> <---- name calling
======================
And you did both stupid. You really are a hoot! Since laughter is the best
medicine, I know that talking to you is going to add years to my life!!
Keep up the good work.

>
> > > to do is deflect the fact that you are without any proof to validate
> your
> > > moronic statement.
> > =======================
> > Nope, just proves even further how ignorant and brainwashed you are.
>
> I'm still waiting for you to enlighten me.
===================================

read 'em and weep, killer...

Here are some sites, with info on specific areas and
pesticides. Animals die.
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/pesticideindex.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/fishkill.htm
http://www.pmac.net/summer-rivers.html
http://www.pmac.net/bird_fish_CA.html
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/news...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...carbofuran.htm
http://www.nwf.org/internationalwildlife/hawk.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn36/pn36p3.htm
http://www.wwfcanada.org/satellite/p...eFactSheet.pdf
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/


http://www.wildlifetrustofindia.org/...ele_poison.htm
http://species.fws.gov/bio_rhin.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html
http://eesc.orst.edu/agcomwebfile/news/food/vegan.html
http://www.hornedlizards.org/hornedlizards/help.html
http://insects.tamu.edu/extension/bulletins/b-5093.html
http://www.orst.edu/dept/ncs/newsarc...00/nitrate.htm
http://www.orst.edu/instruct/fw251/n...riculture.html
http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Pn35/pn35p6.htm


http://www.clearwater.org/news/powerplants.html
http://www.towerkill.com/index.html
http://www.repp.org/repp_pubs/articl.../04impacts.htm


Since your non-animal clothing isn't cruelty-free either,
here's a couple to cover some problems with cotton.
http://www.panna.org/panna/resources...Cotton.dv.html
http://www.sustainablecotton.org/TOUR/


To give you an idea of the sheer number of animals in a field,
here's some sites about *just* mice and voles. Note that there
can be 100s to 1000s in each acre, not the whole field.
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...state.edu/pubs
/natres/06507.pdf+%22voles+per+acre%22+field&hl=en&ie=UTF8
http://extension.usu.edu/publica/natrpubs/voles.pdf
http://extension.ag.uidaho.edu/district4/MG/voles.html
http://www.forages.css.orst.edu/Topi...rate/Mice.html




>
>

krakhead wrote:
>>>>Glad you admit it, but answer the question. Why is it okay to kill
>>>>*thousands* of animals but wrong to eat *one*?
>>>
>>>Stop changing the subject,
>>
>>I didn't change the subject. Answer my question, pro-vegan activist.
>
> Yes, you did change the subject.

No, I did not.

> There is not one post where I say anything about killing or not killing
> animals.

You've alluded that they should not be eaten.

> Pro-vegan activist? Huh?

Your disingenuous comparison between omnivore and vegan diets makes no
mention that both can be healthy.

> So thinking that a vegan diet can be healthy for a child makes me an
> activist?

It's your extreme comparison between omnivorous and vegan diets. Vegan
doesn't automatically mean healthy, nor does omnivorous automatically
mean unhealthy.

> I think you might be generalizing...or projecting.

Neither, and you should learn what each word means before throwing them
out like that.

> I don't care about killing animals. I think being vegan is a healthy way to
> eat.

Ipse dixit. It can be if well balanced and planned. Most people don't
take time to figure out if they're getting enough B12, iron, and zinc --
three typically deficient nutrients in a vegan diet.

<snip banality>

krakhead wrote:
<...>
> Let me also ass that this wasn't always true. The only thing you really
> can't get
> from plant sources is vitamin B-12.

Zinc and iron deficiencies are also common among veg-ns.

Unless they choose a proper balance of foods, strict vegetarians at risk
for several deficiencies, especially vitamin B12. The other nutrients at
risk are riboflavin, calcium, iron, and the essential amino acids lysine
and methionine. Vegetarian children not exposed to sunlight are at risk
for vitamin D deficiency. Zinc deficiency can occur in vegans because
the phytic acid in whole grains binds zinc, and there is little zinc in
fruits and vegetables. Since B12 is present only in animal foods and a
limited number of specially fortified foods, vegans should probably take
B12 supplements prescribed by a physician. Table 3 summarizes some of
these risks.

Table 3. Possible Risks of Vegetarian Eating
Risk Comments
Osteoporosis There is little evidence that a vegetarian diet causes or
cures osteoporosis. One recent study of 290 postmenopausal women found
no differences in the measurements of bone mineralization between
nonvegetarians and lacto-ovo-vegetarians.

Rickets Vegan children who have limited sun exposure may be at risk of
developing rickets secondary to vitamin D deficiency. One study found
very low intakes of calcium and vitamin D among macrobiotic infants.
Only one received a daily supplement of vitamin D, and 15 (28%) were
found to have rickets. Another study found low serum concentrations of
vitamin D among lactating macrobiotic women living in Boston.

Iron-deficiency anemia Low serum ferritin levels (a sensitive measure
of iron storage status) were found in 5% of male and 27% of female
lacto-ovo-vegetarians, and mean ferritin levels of omnivores were
significantly higher than those of vegetarians in one recent study.

Macrocytic anemia Signs of vitamin B12 deficiency have been observed in
some breast-fed infants of women who are strict vegetarians.

Emaciation or slowed growth Excessive leanness and/or slow growth are
have been noted among vegan and vegetarian infants and young children
after weaning.

Another danger of vegan diets is insufficient energy intake (calories),
especially during infancy and early childhood. If energy needs are not
met, body proteins will be broken down for energy, and this creates
additional problems [Ann Rev Nut 11:61-92, 1991]. Therefore, adequate
energy intake should be the foremost consideration in vegan dietary
planning.

Low protein digestability and quality are other potential risks. Protein
quality depends on both digestibility and amino acid composition. The
digestibility of protein in the usual American mixed diet is good,
probably 95%to 96%. But plant protein foods high in fiber or other
inhibitors may have digestibilities as low as 80% [World Health
Organization Technical Report 724, 1985]. The digestibility of vegetable
protein in one vegan diet for a child was found to be only 86% [Am J.
Clin Nutr. 48:868-874, 1988]. Low protein quality is rarely seen in
American vegetarian diets, except among vegans or fruitarians who eat
small amounts of a single plant food (such as rice or fruit) as a
staple. Single plant protein foods usually are lower in protein quality
than most animal proteins because they lack significant amounts of
various essential amino acids. Table 4 indicates the limiting amino
acids (the essential amino acids present in shortest supply) in foods
commonly eaten by vegans and lacto-(ovo)-vegetarians.
http://snipurl.com/4ojw

> Here is a snippet from an article on the Physicians For Responsible Medicine
> site:

They should call themselvs Activists for Vegan Diets instead. They're
not interested in medical science or responsibility at all.

<snip vegan activist propaganda>

or are we all just chewing each other's ears off? geez louise people, let's
just be nice!
anyhow, i've heard lots of good things about joanne stepanik's book "raising
vegetarian children" on the vegsource boards, and there are often
discussions about kids over there. if you post there, i'll bet you'll get
some responses instead of a giant feces-slinging match. it's
www.vegsource.com and the veganism board is moderated by joanne stepanik.
the rest of the discussion boards aren't vegan oriented, but it is a
vegetarian/vegan community, so i'll bet you could find some good responses
on a lot of them.

best of luck ()

"Ian Widdows" > wrote in message
...
> I am currently collating stories/anecdotes about raising vegan children. I
> would appreciate anything on any of the subjects below:
>
> Nutrition
>
> · Different (ages pregnancy etc)
>
> · Prenatal/pregnancy (and before? E.g folic acid)
>
>
>
> Birth
>
> · Drugs
>
> · Vit K
>
> · Birth plan
>
> · stitches
>
>
>
> Infants
>
> · Nappies
>
> · Cleaning fluids?
>
> · Bottles
>
> · Nutrition
>
> · Breastfeeding
>
> · Formula
>
> · Weening
>
> · Attitudes
>
> · Clothes
>
> · Innoculations
>
> Young children
>
> · Being different (other peoples' parties)
>
> · Soap/toothepaste/shampoo.. (soap when not at home)
>
> · Health (inc. medicine/lice/worms/verucas)ecinacea/supplements
>
> · Nutrition
>
> · School(routine/people/lessons/teachers)
>
> · Uniform (sports)/dance/musical instruments
>
> · Clothing/shoes
>
> · Parties and treats
>
> · Friends
>
> · Simple recipes
>
> · Drinks
>
> · Sweets/Snacks and "Fast food"
>
> · Puddings
>
> · Special meals/occasions (e.g. pancake day/Christmas/Easter..)
>
> · Travelling
>
> · Faddy about food/arguing.!
>
> · Insects
>
> · Rats/mice/cockroaches/Wasps
>
> Older children
>
> · Eating out
>
> · Eating disorders
>
> · Holidays/holiday clubs./school trips
>
>
>
> Recipes/ideas
>
> · Breakfast (inc. different soya milks)
>
> · Lunch
>
> · Dinner
>
> · Snacks
>
>
>
> Contacts (websites, organisations.. etc)
>
>
>
> Books/resources
>
>

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 02:26:21 GMT, "katie" > wrote:

>or are we all just chewing each other's ears off? geez louise people, let's
>just be nice!
>anyhow, i've heard lots of good things about joanne stepanik's book "raising
>vegetarian children" on the vegsource boards,

· Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use
of wood and paper products, and roads and all types of
buildings, and by their own diet just as everyone else does.
What vegans try to avoid are products which provide life
(and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
to avoid the following in order to be successful:
__________________________________________________ _______
Tires, Surgical sutures, Matches, Soaps, Photographic film,
Cosmetics, Shaving cream, Paints, Candles, Crayon/Chalk,
Toothpaste, Deodorants, Mouthwash, Paper, Upholstery,
Floor waxes, Glass, Water Filters, Rubber, Fertilizer,
Antifreeze

http://www.aif.org/lvstock.htm
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
Ceramics, Insecticides, Insulation, Linoleum, Plastic,
Textiles, Blood factors, Collagen, Heparin, Insulin,
Pancreatin, Thrombin, Vasopressin, Vitamin B-12, Asphalt,
auto and jet lubricants, outboard engine oil, high-performance
greases, brake fluid

http://www.teachfree.com/student/wow_that_cow.htm
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
contact-lens care products, glues for paper and cardboard
cartons, bookbinding glue, clarification of wines, Hemostats,
sunscreens and sunblocks, dental floss, hairspray, inks, PVC

http://www.discover.com/aug_01/featcow.html
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
Explosives, Solvents, Industrial Oils, Industrial Lubricants,
Stearic Acid, Biodegradable Detergents, Herbicides, Syringes,
Gelatin Capsules, Bandage Strips, Combs and Toothbrushes,
Emery Boards and Cloth, Adhesive Tape, Laminated Wood Products,
Plywood and Paneling, Wallpaper and Wallpaper Paste, Cellophane
Wrap and Tape, Adhesive Tape, Abrasives, Bone Charcoal for High
Grade Steel, Steel Ball Bearings

http://www.sheepusa.org/environment/products.shtml
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
slaughters, and the animals live and die in it as they do
in any other habitat. They also depend on it for their
lives like the animals in any other habitat. If people
consume animal products from animals they think are
raised in decent ways, they will be promoting life for
more such animals in the future.
From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat. From a grass
raised dairy cow people get thousands of servings of dairy
products. Due to the influence of farm machinery, and *icides,
and in the case of rice the flooding and draining of fields,
one serving of soy or rice based product is likely to involve
more animal deaths than hundreds of servings derived from grass
raised cattle. Grass raised cattle products contribute to less
wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and decent lives for
cattle. ·

"katie" > wrote in message et.cable.rogers.com>...
> or are we all just chewing each other's ears off? geez louise people, let's
> just be nice!
> anyhow, i've heard lots of good things about joanne stepanik's book "raising
> vegetarian children" on the vegsource boards, and there are often
> discussions about kids over there. if you post there, i'll bet you'll get
> some responses instead of a giant feces-slinging match. it's
> www.vegsource.com and the veganism board is moderated by joanne stepanik.
> the rest of the discussion boards aren't vegan oriented, but it is a
> vegetarian/vegan community, so i'll bet you could find some good responses
> on a lot of them.
>
> best of luck ()
>


<snip>


Be careful on the forums that you don't run afoul of "Sigrid" and her
band of screeching harpies.

You will find you cannot access their site anymore.