On 13 Feb 2004 06:11:23 -0800, (Tom Larson) wrote:

>I agree with the following article:
>
>http://www.aynrand.org/medialink/ter...alrights.shtml
>
>Tom Larson



The Terror of "Animal Rights"



By Alex Epstein

The "animal rights" movement is celebrating its latest victory: an earlier, more painful death for future
victims of Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and Huntington's disease.
Thanks to intimidation by animal rights terrorists, Cambridge University has dropped plans to build a laboratory
that would have conducted cutting-edge brain research on primates. According to The Times of London, animal-rights
groups "had threatened to target the centre with violent protests ... and Cambridge decided that it could not afford the
costs or danger to staff that this would involve."
The university had good reason to be afraid. At a nearby animal-testing company, Huntingdon Life Sciences,
"protestors" have for several years attempted to shut down the company by threatening employees and associates, damaging
their homes, firebombing their cars, even beating them severely.
Many commentators and medical professionals in Britain have condemned the animal-rights terrorists and their
violent tactics. Unfortunately, most have cast the terrorists as "extremists" who take "too far" the allegedly
benevolent cause of animal rights. This is a deadly mistake. The terrorists' inhuman tactics are an embodiment of the
movement's inhuman cause.
While most animal-rights activists do not inflict beatings on animal testers, they do share the terrorists' goal
of ending animal research—including the vital research the Cambridge lab would have conducted.
There is no question that animal research is absolutely necessary for the development of life-saving drugs,
medical procedures, and biotech treatments. According to Nobel Laureate Joseph Murray, M.D.: "Animal experimentation has
been essential to the development of all cardiac surgery, transplantation surgery, joint replacements, and all
vaccinations." Explains former American Medical Association president Daniel Johnson, M.D.: "Animal research—followed by
human clinical study—is absolutely necessary to find the causes and cures for so many deadly threats, from AIDS to
cancer."
Millions of humans would suffer and die unnecessarily if animal testing were prohibited. Animal rights activists
know this, but are unmoved. Chris DeRose, founder of the group Last Chance for Animals, writes: "If the death of one rat
cured all diseases, it wouldn't make any difference to me."
The goal of the animal-rights movement is not to stop sadistic animal torturers; it is to sacrifice and
subjugate man to animals. This goal is inherent in the very notion of "animal rights." According to People for the
Ethical Treatment of Animals, the basic principle of "animal rights" is: "animals are not ours to eat, wear, experiment
on, or use for entertainment"—they "deserve consideration of their own best interests regardless of whether they are
useful to humans." This is in exact contradiction to the requirements of human survival and progress, which demand that
we kill animals when they endanger us, eat them when we need food, run tests on them to fight disease. The death and
destruction that would result from any serious attempt to respect "animal rights" would be catastrophic—for humans—a
prospect the movement's most consistent members embrace. "We need a drastic decrease in human population if we ever hope
to create a just and equitable world for animals," proclaims Freeman Wicklund of Compassionate Action for Animals.
To ascribe rights to animals is to contradict the purpose and justification of rights—to protect the interests
of humans. Rights are moral principles necessary for men to survive as human beings—to coexist peacefully, to produce
and trade, to provide for their own lives, and to pursue their own happiness, all by the guidance of their rational
minds. To attribute rights to nonrational, amoral creatures who can neither grasp nor live by them is to turn rights
from a tool of human preservation to a tool of human extermination.
It should be no surprise that many in the animal-rights movement use violence to pursue their man-destroying
goals. While these terrorists should be condemned and imprisoned, that is not enough. We must wage a principled,
intellectual war against the very notion of "animal rights"; we must condemn it as logically false and morally
repugnant.

Alex Epstein is a writer for the Ayn Rand Institute in Irvine, CA. The Institute promotes the philosophy of Ayn Rand,
author of Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead.

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 02:01:31 GMT, wrote:

>On 13 Feb 2004 06:11:23 -0800, (Tom Larson) wrote:
>
>>I agree with the following article:
>>
>>http://www.aynrand.org/medialink/ter...alrights.shtml
>>
>>Tom Larson
>
>
>
>The Terror of "Animal Rights"
>
>
>
>By Alex Epstein
>
> The "animal rights" movement is celebrating its latest victory: an earlier, more painful death for future
>victims of Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and Huntington's disease.
__________________________________________________ _______
If scientists could replace animal research and testing
with methods which did not need to use animals then
they would.

There are several reasons for this:

* Scientists do not like or want to use animals in research.
Like the vast majority of people they do not want to see animals
suffer unnecessarily. In fact less than 10% of biomedical research
uses animals. Unfortunately for much of the work involved in
biomedical research there are as yet no working alternative
techniques that would allow us to stop using animals.

* Biomedical research is producing thousands of new compounds,
which may have potential as new drugs. It is much more efficient to
screen these compounds using rapid non-animal techniques to test
their effectiveness and toxicity.

* The very high standards of animal welfare and care required of
British research establishments are a contributory factor in making
animal research very expensive. If scientists can develop alternatives
to using animals it will allow them to divert their limited research funds
to other areas of research.
[...]
http://www.bret.org.uk/noan.htm
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__________________________________________________ _______
[...]
From the bald eagle to the red wolf, biomedical research has
helped bring many species back from the brink of extinction.
Conservation and captive breeding programs, often using
fertilization techniques developed for humans, have made it
possible for these animals to be reintroduced into the wild, and
today their numbers are growing. Biologists and wildlife
veterinarians rely on the latest research in reproduction, nutrition,
toxicology and medicine to build a better future for our wild
animals.

In vitro fertilization, sperm banks and artificial insemination were
all developed to help human couples, but today they also are
regularly used to ensure the survival of endangered species.
[...]

http://fbresearch.org/helpingwildlife.html
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
WITHOUT ANIMAL RESEARCH:

Polio would kill or cripple thousands of unvaccinated children and
adults this year.

Most of the nation's one million insulin-dependent diabetics wouldn't
be insulin dependent -- they would be dead.

60 million Americans would risk death from heart attack, stroke or
kidney failure from lack of medication to control their high blood
pressure.

Doctors would have no chemotherapy to save the 70% of children who
now survive acute lymphocytic leukemia.

More than one million Americans would lose vision in at least one eye
this year because cataract surgery would be impossible.

Hundreds of thousands of people disabled by strokes or by head or
spinal cord injuries would not benefit from rehabilitation techniques.

The more than 100,000 people with arthritis who each year receive hip
replacements would walk only with great pain and difficulty or be
confined to wheelchairs.

7,500 newborns who contract jaundice each year would develop cerebral
palsy, now preventable through phototherapy.

There would be no kidney dialysis to extend the lives of thousands of
patients with end-stage renal disease.

Surgery of any type would be a painful, rare procedure without the
development of modern anesthesia allowing artificially induced
unconsciousness or local or general insensitivity to pain.

Instead of being eradicated, smallpox would continue unchecked and many
others would join the two million people already killed by the disease.

Millions of dogs, cats, and other pets and farm animals would have died
from anthrax, distemper, canine parvovirus, feline leukemia, rabies and
more than 200 other diseases now preventable thanks to animal research.

http://www.ampef.org/research.htm
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> Thanks to intimidation by animal rights terrorists, Cambridge University has dropped plans to build a laboratory
>that would have conducted cutting-edge brain research on primates. According to The Times of London, animal-rights
>groups "had threatened to target the centre with violent protests ... and Cambridge decided that it could not afford the
>costs or danger to staff that this would involve."
> The university had good reason to be afraid. At a nearby animal-testing company, Huntingdon Life Sciences,
>"protestors" have for several years attempted to shut down the company by threatening employees and associates, damaging
>their homes, firebombing their cars, even beating them severely.
__________________________________________________ _______
August 11, 2002:
Arson by the ELF caused $700,000 worth of damage at a Forest Service lab
in Irvine, PA, and destroyed 70 years of research focused on maintaining a
healthy forest ecosystem. An e-mail from Elf's office said "While innocent
life will never be harmed in any action we undertake, where it is necessary,
we will no longer hesitate to pick up the gun to implement justice, and
provide the needed protection for our planet that decades of legal battles,
pleading protest, and economic sabotage have failed so drastically to
achieve." It further stated that all Forest Service stations were targeted,
and, if rebuilt, the Pennsylvania station would be targeted for complete
destruction.

September 21, 2001 UK:
Ashley Broadley Glynn Harding, the mail bomber
who sent 15 letter bombs to animal-related businesses and individuals over
a three-month period last winter, was sentenced to indefinite detention in
mental hospital. Additional court ordered restrictions mean that Harding will
not be released until the Home Secretary is satisfied that he poses no risk to
the public. The bomber's mail terror campaign injured two adults and one
child, one woman lost her left eye, the child scarred for life. At trial, evidence
indicated that he had intended to mail as many as 100 letter bombs.

August 16, 2001 UK:
One of the three men who assaulted Brian Cass, managing director of
Huntingdon Life Sciences, at his home, received a sentence of three years in
jail for his part in the attack. David Blenkinsop and two others donned ski
masks and ambushed Cass as he arrived home, bludgeoning him with wooden
staves and pickaxe handles. DNA on the handles and Blenkinsop’s clothing
helped convict him of the offense.

June 12, 2001 MO:
A 30-year-old animal rights activist attacked a
"Survivor" series cast member at a workplace safety promotion, pepper
spraying him in the face and hitting several onlookers, including children, as
well. Police arrested the attacker. Michael Skupin, who lasted six weeks on
"Survivor," attributed the attack to his killing of a pig for food on the series.

May 31, 2001 Canada:
In a raid late this month, Toronto police arrested
two men and put out an appeal for apprehension of a third in connection
with animal cruelty charges stemming from the videotaped skinning of live
animals. The video showed a cat being tortured and killed allegedly by a
self-styled artist and vegan protesting animal cruelty. Anthony Ryan
Wenneker, 24, and Jessie Champlain Powers, 21 were arrested. The raid
turned up a headless, skinned cat in the refrigerator, along with other
animal skeletons, including a dog, some mice and rats, and the videos.
Police are searching for the third person seen in the videos.

May 23, 2001 UK:
Three men, ages 34, 31 and 34, were arrested for the
attack on Brian Cass, Director of Huntingdon Life Sciences. The baseball bat
brandishing attackers split Cass' scalp and bruised him and sprayed a
would-be rescuer with CS gas on February 22, 2001. One of the men was
arrested at an animal sanctuary run by TV script writer Carla Lane.

May 9, 2001 Israel:
Shraga Segal, an immunologist and former dean of the
Ben-Gurion University medical school, resigned his post as chairman of the
government body that supervises research involving animals. Segal received
a faxed death threat and threats of violence against his family.

April 27, 2001 WA:
Governor Gary Locke signed into law this week a
measure that would make it a misdemeanor to knowingly interfere with or
recklessly injure a guide dog, or to allow one's dog to obstruct or intimidate
a guide dog. Repeat offenses could net up to one year in jail and a $5,000
fine. The measure sailed through the legislature in record time after reports
of blind people being harassed by animal rights fanatics, both verbally and
by looking for opportunities to separate the guide dogs from their owners.

April 19, 2001 UK:
In the US District Court for the District of New Jersey,
the US subsidiary of Huntingdon Life Sciences joined in the filing of an
amended complaint against SHAC, Voices for Animals, Animal Defense
League, In Defense of Animals, and certain individuals. The amended filing
asserts claims under the Civil Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organization
Statute (RICO) and cited physical attacks on individual employees, death
threats, bomb threats, destruction of property, burglary, harassment and
intimidation; and also asserts claims for interference with contractual
relations and economic advantage. The original plaintiffs in the action were
the Stephens Group and its wholly owned investment-banking subsidiary,
Stephens, Inc.

February 23, 2001 UK:
In a major public escalation of animal rights terrorist violence, the managing
director of Huntingdon Life Sciences was attacked as he arrived home by
three masked goons wielding baseball bats or ax handles. Brian Cass, 53,
bludgeoned with head and body wounds and bruises, including a 3-inch
scalp gash, was saved from further injury by his girl friend's screams and
the aid of two passersby. One of the Good Samaritans chased the
attackers, but was debilitated by CS gas from one of the attackers. Cass,
stitched up and back at work the next day, vowed to continue the work of
HLS, which includes government mandated tests seeking cures for
dementia, diabetes, AIDS, asthma and other diseases. In reaction to the
attack, Ronnie Lee, ALF founder who is no longer with the group, condoned
the attack and expressed surprise that it didn't happen more often,
declaring that Cass got off "lightly." Other animal rights groups publicly
backed off condoning the act, but expressed "understanding" of how it
could occur. In calendar year 2000, 11 Huntingdon employees' cars were
firebombed.

February 21, 2001 UK:
Two men ages 26 and 36, and one 31 year-old woman were arrested in
connection with letter bombing attacks against at least eleven agricultural
businesses. Since December 10, 2000, three bombs were intercepted, but 5
of 10 others exploded, causing serious eye and facial injury to two adults,
and leg wounds to a 6-year old daughter of one of the intended victims.
Authorities considered all of the bombs potentially lethal. The businesses
included pet supply, pest control, farming, agricultural supply, and a
livestock auction agency.

February 13, 2001 Scotland:
A letter bomb was sent to an agricultural entity in the Borders. Army
experts were called out to defuse the bomb.

February 12, 2001 UK:
An agricultural firm in North Yorkshire received a letter bomb which was
defused without incident by army experts.

February 4, 2001 UK:
In an attack near Nantwich, Cheshire Beagles master George Murray, his
wife and five other hunt members were assaulted by masked animal rights
activists. At least five hunt members were injured by the stick- and
whip-wielding attackers. Murray was beaten, kicked in the head and face
and his wife was punched in the face. They were threatened with death as
retribution for the death 10 years ago of hunt saboteur Michael Hill.

January 31, 2001 UK:
A letter bomb exploded in Cumbria in a charity shop owned by the British
Heart Foundation. The woman who opened the package was not injured.

January 30, 2001 UK:
Two nail bombs, sent to an agricultural supplier in Sheffield and a cancer
research campaign shop in Lancashire, were detected and defused by
authorities before being opened by the recipients. Both bomb attacks were
linked to letter bomb mailings that started in mid-December.

January 5, 2001 UK:
Livestock auction estate agents in East Yorkshire are attacked by letter
bomb. One female staff member sustained serious eye injuries from the
explosion.

January 5, 2001 UK:
A farmer in North Yorkshire was injured by nails from an exploding letter
bomb.

December 30, 2000 UK:
A mail bomb sent to a pest control company in Cheshire exploded, injuring
the owner's 6-year old daughter who was helping her father with the mail.
The girl was cut on her legs and feet by shrapnel from the envelope.
Authorities suspect animal rights activists in the bombing.

October 23, 2000 UK:
Two hunt members received death threats and car bombs. Both were on a
publicized list of seven huntsmen considered to be "legitimate targets" by
the Hunt Retribution Squad." All seven had received threatening letters on
September 4, 2000. Amateur whip David Pitfield's van was destroyed by one
bomb in South Nutfield, Surrey. The bomb under a woman hunt member's
vehicle in East Sussex, discovered five hours later, did not detonate and
was removed by army bomb experts. Both bombs were considered lethal.

http://www.naiaonline.org/body/artic...s/arterror.htm
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> Many commentators and medical professionals in Britain have condemned the animal-rights terrorists and their
>violent tactics. Unfortunately, most have cast the terrorists as "extremists" who take "too far" the allegedly
>benevolent cause of animal rights. This is a deadly mistake. The terrorists' inhuman tactics are an embodiment of the
>movement's inhuman cause.
> While most animal-rights activists do not inflict beatings on animal testers, they do share the terrorists' goal
>of ending animal research—including the vital research the Cambridge lab would have conducted.
__________________________________________________ _______
[...]
In a war that is fought on on all fronts, as
thousands of actions occur every year
around the world there is bound to be
prisoners. Prisoner support is essential and
important aspect of our movement.
[...]
http://www.animalliberation.net/people/
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
All jailed political prisoners need our help through phone
calls ,letter writing, and faxes. We all must send prisoners
letters and information of different events to keep their
resolve strong (it get's lonely in jail!). Please, if you are not
a regular letter writer, make sure to send these activists mail
every once in a while. They will surely appreciate it.

http://www.angelfire.com/pa/veganresist/pow.html
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> There is no question that animal research is absolutely necessary for the development of life-saving drugs,
>medical procedures, and biotech treatments. According to Nobel Laureate Joseph Murray, M.D.: "Animal experimentation has
>been essential to the development of all cardiac surgery, transplantation surgery, joint replacements, and all
>vaccinations." Explains former American Medical Association president Daniel Johnson, M.D.: "Animal research—followed by
>human clinical study—is absolutely necessary to find the causes and cures for so many deadly threats, from AIDS to
>cancer."
> Millions of humans would suffer and die unnecessarily if animal testing were prohibited. Animal rights activists
>know this, but are unmoved. Chris DeRose, founder of the group Last Chance for Animals, writes: "If the death of one rat
>cured all diseases, it wouldn't make any difference to me."
> The goal of the animal-rights movement is not to stop sadistic animal torturers; it is to sacrifice and
>subjugate man to animals. This goal is inherent in the very notion of "animal rights." According to People for the
>Ethical Treatment of Animals, the basic principle of "animal rights" is: "animals are not ours to eat, wear, experiment
>on, or use for entertainment"—they "deserve consideration of their own best interests regardless of whether they are
>useful to humans." This is in exact contradiction to the requirements of human survival and progress, which demand that
>we kill animals when they endanger us, eat them when we need food, run tests on them to fight disease. The death and
>destruction that would result from any serious attempt to respect "animal rights" would be catastrophic—for humans—a
>prospect the movement's most consistent members embrace. "We need a drastic decrease in human population if we ever hope
>to create a just and equitable world for animals," proclaims Freeman Wicklund of Compassionate Action for Animals.
> To ascribe rights to animals is to contradict the purpose and justification of rights—to protect the interests
>of humans. Rights are moral principles necessary for men to survive as human beings—to coexist peacefully, to produce
>and trade, to provide for their own lives, and to pursue their own happiness, all by the guidance of their rational
>minds. To attribute rights to nonrational, amoral creatures who can neither grasp nor live by them is to turn rights
>from a tool of human preservation to a tool of human extermination.
> It should be no surprise that many in the animal-rights movement use violence to pursue their man-destroying
>goals. While these terrorists should be condemned and imprisoned, that is not enough. We must wage a principled,
>intellectual war against the very notion of "animal rights"; we must condemn it as logically false and morally
>repugnant.
>
>Alex Epstein is a writer for the Ayn Rand Institute in Irvine, CA. The Institute promotes the philosophy of Ayn Rand,
>author of Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead.

The moral rights of other animals (than ourselves) is an interesting topic.
Humans are currently the dominant species on this planet - though for how
much longer is debatable (I suggest only a matter of decades before our sins
catch up with us). Hence, we can do to other animals whatever we like, on
the assumption that they'll never be able to do the same to us. The RC
Church put it - "Animals have no souls, hence no rights" - but then there
was Saint Francis.. The Golden Rule says: "Do unto others as you would than
they should do unto you." This applies to eco-terrorists too, in their
campaigning ("the end justifies the means").
Personally, I regard vivisection as cold-blooded cruelty, and many current
human diseases as self-inflicted, "diseases of civilization". If we can't
find some other way of research, then we should perhaps "let Nature take its
course" and cull us out....
=========================
> wrote in message
...
> On 13 Feb 2004 06:11:23 -0800, (Tom Larson) wrote:
>
> >I agree with the following article:
> >
> >http://www.aynrand.org/medialink/ter...alrights.shtml
> >
> >Tom Larson
>
>
>
> The Terror of "Animal Rights"
>
>
>
> By Alex Epstein
>
> The "animal rights" movement is celebrating its latest victory: an
earlier, more painful death for future
> victims of Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and Huntington's disease.
> Thanks to intimidation by animal rights terrorists, Cambridge
University has dropped plans to build a laboratory
> that would have conducted cutting-edge brain research on primates.
..........

"Don H" > wrote in message
...
> The moral rights of other animals (than ourselves) is an interesting
topic.
>

not if you actually have a real life to live

Don H top-posted:
> The moral rights of other animals (than ourselves) is an interesting topic.

Not to rational people.

> Humans are currently the dominant species on this planet - though for how
> much longer is debatable

I think we're pretty safe at the top of the food chain.

> (I suggest only a matter of decades before our sins
> catch up with us).

Sins? What sins? Eating meat is not a sin.

> ... The Golden Rule says: "Do unto others as you would than
> they should do unto you."

Other humans, not other species.

> This applies to eco-terrorists too, in their
> campaigning ("the end justifies the means").

Campaigning? You mean destruction.

> Personally, I regard vivisection as cold-blooded cruelty,

Stop taking medications, avoid surgery. Give up your automobile. Go live
in a hut like the Unabomber.

> and many current
> human diseases as self-inflicted, "diseases of civilization". If we can't
> find some other way of research, then we should perhaps "let Nature take its
> course" and cull us out....

Spoken like the true misanthrope you really are.

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
> Don H top-posted:
> > The moral rights of other animals (than ourselves) is an interesting
topic.
>
> Not to rational people.

You're not rational.
>
> > Humans are currently the dominant species on this planet - though for
how
> > much longer is debatable
>
> I think we're pretty safe at the top of the food chain.
>
> > (I suggest only a matter of decades before our sins
> > catch up with us).
>
> Sins? What sins? Eating meat is not a sin.

Eating meat means killing. Killing is a sin.
>
> > ... The Golden Rule says: "Do unto others as you would than
> > they should do unto you."
>
> Other humans, not other species.

Says you. 'In this context "Others" denotes living, be it animals or people.
>
> > This applies to eco-terrorists too, in their
> > campaigning ("the end justifies the means").
>
> Campaigning? You mean destruction.

A little applied education of evil *******s.
>
> > Personally, I regard vivisection as cold-blooded cruelty,
>
> Stop taking medications, avoid surgery. Give up your automobile. Go live
> in a hut like the Unabomber.

We have had the benefits of vivisection thrust upon us.
>
> > and many current
> > human diseases as self-inflicted, "diseases of civilization". If we
can't
> > find some other way of research, then we should perhaps "let Nature take
its
> > course" and cull us out....

Start the cull in Austin.
>
> Spoken like the true misanthrope you really are.

Truth hurts eh!
>

Racist Ray wrote:
>>>The moral rights of other animals (than ourselves) is an interesting
>
> topic.
>
>>Not to rational people.
>
> You're not rational.

Closer to it than you'll ever be, you racist prat.

>>>Humans are currently the dominant species on this planet - though for
> how
>>>much longer is debatable
>>
>>I think we're pretty safe at the top of the food chain.
>>
>>
>>>(I suggest only a matter of decades before our sins
>>>catch up with us).
>>
>>Sins? What sins? Eating meat is not a sin.
>
> Eating meat means killing. Killing is a sin.

Jesus said it isn't what goes into the mouth that defiles someone, it's
what comes out. That's not good news for you, Racist Ray, since you spew
hatred about "gooks." St Paul wrote that we should judge one another by
diet or drink. I think that's important since all that fermented barley
malt you drink causes deaths to the animals of the fields and to people
on the roadways when you drink-drive.

>>>... The Golden Rule says: "Do unto others as you would than
>>>they should do unto you."
>>
>>Other humans, not other species.
>
> Says you. 'In this context "Others" denotes living, be it animals or people.

No, it was in the context of the Sermon on the Mount. Christ was
expounding on man's relationship with God and man's relationship with
mankind.

>>>This applies to eco-terrorists too, in their
>>>campaigning ("the end justifies the means").
>>
>>Campaigning? You mean destruction.
>
> A little applied education of evil *******s.

We know you support terror -- or, at the very least, you openly condone
it. I think your approval is more than you admit.

>>>Personally, I regard vivisection as cold-blooded cruelty,
>>
>>Stop taking medications, avoid surgery. Give up your automobile. Go live
>>in a hut like the Unabomber.
>
> We have had the benefits of vivisection thrust upon us.

No, you can shun medical and technological advances. The Amish do to a
large degree, as do Jehovah's Witnesses. Nobody's forcing that upon you
-- like Dreck, you readily use what's available and live to bitch about it.

>>>and many current
>>>human diseases as self-inflicted, "diseases of civilization". If we
> can't
>>>find some other way of research, then we should perhaps "let Nature take
> its
>>>course" and cull us out....
>
> Start the cull in Austin.

In the words of the DeWitt colonists, "Come and take it."
http://www.tamu.edu/ccbn/dewitt/batgon.htm

>>Spoken like the true misanthrope you really are.
>
> Truth hurts eh!

Not as much as lies, like those you peddle.

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:05:00 +0000 (UTC), "Ray" > wrote:

>
>"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...
>> Don H top-posted:
>> > The moral rights of other animals (than ourselves) is an interesting
>topic.
>>
>> Not to rational people.
>
>You're not rational.
>>
>> > Humans are currently the dominant species on this planet - though for
>how
>> > much longer is debatable
>>
>> I think we're pretty safe at the top of the food chain.
>>
>> > (I suggest only a matter of decades before our sins
>> > catch up with us).
>>
>> Sins? What sins? Eating meat is not a sin.
>
>Eating meat means killing. Killing is a sin.

· Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use
of wood and paper products, and roads and all types of
buildings, and by their own diet just as everyone else does.
What vegans try to avoid are products which provide life
(and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
to avoid the following in order to be successful:
__________________________________________________ _______
Tires, Surgical sutures, Matches, Soaps, Photographic film,
Cosmetics, Shaving cream, Paints, Candles, Crayon/Chalk,
Toothpaste, Deodorants, Mouthwash, Paper, Upholstery,
Floor waxes, Glass, Water Filters, Rubber, Fertilizer,
Antifreeze

http://www.aif.org/lvstock.htm
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Ceramics, Insecticides, Insulation, Linoleum, Plastic,
Textiles, Blood factors, Collagen, Heparin, Insulin,
Pancreatin, Thrombin, Vasopressin, Vitamin B-12, Asphalt,
auto and jet lubricants, outboard engine oil, high-performance
greases, brake fluid

http://www.teachfree.com/student/wow_that_cow.htm
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contact-lens care products, glues for paper and cardboard
cartons, bookbinding glue, clarification of wines, Hemostats,
sunscreens and sunblocks, dental floss, hairspray, inks, PVC

http://www.discover.com/aug_01/featcow.html
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Explosives, Solvents, Industrial Oils, Industrial Lubricants,
Stearic Acid, Biodegradable Detergents, Herbicides, Syringes,
Gelatin Capsules, Bandage Strips, Combs and Toothbrushes,
Emery Boards and Cloth, Adhesive Tape, Laminated Wood Products,
Plywood and Paneling, Wallpaper and Wallpaper Paste, Cellophane
Wrap and Tape, Adhesive Tape, Abrasives, Bone Charcoal for High
Grade Steel, Steel Ball Bearings

http://www.sheepusa.org/environment/products.shtml
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The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
slaughters, and the animals live and die in it as they do
in any other habitat. They also depend on it for their
lives like the animals in any other habitat. If people
consume animal products from animals they think are
raised in decent ways, they will be promoting life for
more such animals in the future.
From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat. From a grass
raised dairy cow people get thousands of servings of dairy
products. Due to the influence of farm machinery, and *icides,
and in the case of rice the flooding and draining of fields,
one serving of soy or rice based product is likely to involve
more animal deaths than hundreds of servings derived from grass
raised cattle. Grass raised cattle products contribute to less
wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and decent lives for
cattle. ·

A real life, huh...you mean like being a troll?


"Jim Webster" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Don H" > wrote in message
> ...
> > The moral rights of other animals (than ourselves) is an interesting
> topic.
> >
>
> not if you actually have a real life to live
>
>
>

Who really wants to read an article on Accounts Receivables (AR)? Sounds
extremely dry....


krakatoa wrote:
> A real life, huh...you mean like being a troll?
>
>
> "Jim Webster" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"Don H" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>The moral rights of other animals (than ourselves) is an interesting
>>
>>topic.
>>
>>not if you actually have a real life to live
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

I'm not opposed to eating meat. This is forced upon us by our evolutionary
history; humans are omnivorous. Also, most domestic animals exist today
because they are domesticated - and thus humans have a vested interest in
their survival. But cruelty is another matter; and all domestic animals
should live in as natural a manner as is possible; and die as quickly and
painlessly as possible. For a sobering view of humans as themselves
victims, see the movie "Mars Attacks!"
======================
> wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:05:00 +0000 (UTC), "Ray"
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"usual suspect" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Don H top-posted:
> >> > The moral rights of other animals (than ourselves) is an interesting
> >topic.
> >>
> >> Not to rational people.
> >
> >You're not rational.
> >>
> >> > Humans are currently the dominant species on this planet - though for
> >how
> >> > much longer is debatable
> >>
> >> I think we're pretty safe at the top of the food chain.
> >>
> >> > (I suggest only a matter of decades before our sins
> >> > catch up with us).
> >>
> >> Sins? What sins? Eating meat is not a sin.
> >
> >Eating meat means killing. Killing is a sin.
>
> · Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use
> of wood and paper products, and roads and all types of
> buildings, and by their own diet just as everyone else does.
> What vegans try to avoid are products which provide life
> (and death) for farm animals, ....

Rob Gray wrote:
> Who really wants to read an article on Accounts Receivables (AR)? Sounds
> extremely dry....

Durn, I thought the article would be about AR-10's and AR-15's. Bummer....
--
Lou Boyd

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 17:27:19 GMT, "Don H" > wrote:

>I'm not opposed to eating meat. This is forced upon us by our evolutionary
>history; humans are omnivorous. Also, most domestic animals exist today
>because they are domesticated - and thus humans have a vested interest in
>their survival.

Some animals raised for food have decent lives

>But cruelty is another matter;

and as you mentioned some don't. "ARAs" want very badly for people *not!*
to take that into consideration. They are opposed to providing decent lives
for domestic animals, and don't want them to exist at all.

>and all domestic animals
>should live in as natural a manner as is possible; and die as quickly and
>painlessly as possible.

If that's the way you feel you should be opposed to "AR" and supportive
of better Animal Welfare. It is pathetic that these people who pretend so
badly to care about human influence on animals, NEVER point out that
people who want to promote decent lives for livestock with their diet should
be more conscientious consumers of animals products, NOT veg*ns. They
also not only will NEVER point out the fact that some types of meat involve
far fewer animal deaths than some types of veggies, but they are very
opposed to seeing non-veg*ns point it out for them.