I've switched to a vegan diet, and would love some input on some vegan websites
with good recipes, or a recommendation for a good vegan cookbook.
I have a few vegetarian cookbooks, but so many recipes have eggs and dairy.


Thanks!
June

www.vegweb.com is a great website for vegan recipies.
enjo carlina

"ShantiP1" > wrote in message
...
> I've switched to a vegan diet, and would love some input on some vegan
websites
> with good recipes, or a recommendation for a good vegan cookbook.
> I have a few vegetarian cookbooks, but so many recipes have eggs and
dairy.
>
>
> Thanks!
> June

While frolicking around in alt.food.vegan, ShantiP1 of AOL
http://www.aol.com said:

>I've switched to a vegan diet, and would love some input on some vegan websites
>with good recipes, or a recommendation for a good vegan cookbook.
>I have a few vegetarian cookbooks, but so many recipes have eggs and dairy.
>
You can still use a lot of the recipes from your vegetarian cookbook,
as long as you replace the milk with soy milk, or some other
substitute; if the dish has spices, you will hardly notice the
difference.

Vegan recipes can be found at

http://www.govegan.net/
http://www.vegancooking.com/
http://www.vegan-food.net/

and you can try Leah Leneman's "Easy vegan cooking"
--
Nikitta a.a. #1759 Apatriot(No, not apricot)#18
ICQ# 251532856
Unreferenced footnotes: http://www.nut.house.cx/cgi-bin/nemwiki.pl?ISFN
"'Cause knives are handy things to have around, for all kinds of
not-stabbing-people purposes? I carry one." The Grouchybeast (Sheddie)

Thanks for the vegan sites and cookbook recommendation! :-)

Regards,
June

In article >, ShantiP1
> wrote:

> vegan websites
> with good recipes, or a recommendation for a good vegan cookbook.

Kate Pugh's site is quite good:

http://www.earth.li/%7ekake/cookery/

As for cookbooks, anything by Bryanna Clark Grogan or Joanne Stepaniak
are worthwhile.

--
-John
http://electronworks.com/recipes/

Thanks for the site and book info. I'm finding that I have a lot more choices
than I thought! I've been printing out recipes for hours! LOL

Warm regards,
June

(ShantiP1) wrote in
:

> I've switched to a vegan diet, and would love some input on some vegan
> websites with good recipes, or a recommendation for a good vegan
> cookbook. I have a few vegetarian cookbooks, but so many recipes have
> eggs and dairy.
>
>
> Thanks!
> June
>

Try the following:

http://www.weimarmarket.com/catalog/...products_id=60

It's a vegan cookbook, great tasting recipes, easy to make as well.


--

Thanks! All these suggestions have been wonderful.
Found a great soy parmesan the other day and am having fun trying all these new
things. Even my husband enjoyed the portabello mushroom burger we had the other
night and for lunch today we had hummus on pita with tomato. I never thought
I'd see him eat these foods, but since mad cow disease, he has given up beef
and is more open to trying my veggie dishes. I also told him about the puss
that is allowed in milk and today he actually tried a milk substitute with
oatmeal and enjoyed it. Ah, the joy of watching food evolution! LOL
I've been trying for a long time to get him to change his eating habits. He's
not ready for the full plunge, but he is open to eating quite a few non meat,
non dairy dishes.

Regards,
June

who wrote:

> (ShantiP1) wrote in
> :
>
>
>>I've switched to a vegan diet, and would love some input on some vegan
>>websites with good recipes, or a recommendation for a good vegan
>>cookbook. I have a few vegetarian cookbooks, but so many recipes have
>>eggs and dairy.
>>
>>
>>Thanks!
>>June
>>
>
>
> Try the following:
>
> http://www.weimarmarket.com/catalog/...products_id=60
>
> It's a vegan cookbook, great tasting recipes, easy to make as well.

Here's another versatile vegan cookbook, with easy
recipes: http://www.lemonparty.org

Sorry, won't fall for that one again! LOL

Regards,
June

ShantiP1 wrote:
> Thanks! All these suggestions have been wonderful.
> Found a great soy parmesan the other day and am having fun trying all these new
> things. Even my husband enjoyed the portabello mushroom burger we had the other
> night and for lunch today we had hummus on pita with tomato.

That's grounds for divorce. Your husband show grow a set to replace the
ones you obviously cut off.

> I never thought
> I'd see him eat these foods, but since mad cow disease, he has given up beef

He must be irrational. *One* cow. It's not an epidemic. I could
understand if he were in the UK where it's been more widespread, but one
freaking cow that came from Canada? Geez.

> and is more open to trying my veggie dishes. I also told him about the puss

Pus, with one s. Puss is short for pussy. You're getting information
from activist sites, and from Cohen by the sound of it. He's not a
scientist, and he's shunned even by other vegans for his exaggerations
and sensationalism. The rest of his own family drink real milk.

> that is allowed in milk and today he actually tried a milk substitute with
> oatmeal and enjoyed it. Ah, the joy of watching food evolution! LOL
> I've been trying for a long time to get him to change his eating habits.

Why can't you accept him as he is? What else are you trying to change
about him?

> He's not ready for the full plunge,

But you were. You married the poor guy and now you wanna change him.

> but he is open to eating quite a few non meat,
> non dairy dishes.

I bet. Are you giving him meat-based options?

Boy, do you like jumping to conclusions and making false assumptions!
Firstly, we have been married for 44 years and my husband is not some wimp I
have manipulated. In fact, it's quite the contrary! He eats what he wants and
although we go out to eat about five times a week, when I do cook, he is happy
to eat what I eat most of the time and if he isn't, I make him something he
likes.
As far as mad cow goes,you need to do some research. Testing only 20,000 cows a
year when there are over 20,000,000 a year slaughtered for food, doesn't make
me confident for the populace. Another thing I read a while ago, is that a lot
of our ground beef is supposedly imported from Europe.
Before that diseased cow was found to have gotten into US meat supply, my
husband had already cut down on beef eating and mad cow was just the thing to
make him decide to eliminate it from his diet altogether. It is his personal
choice for health and for dietary considerations since beef is not only loaded
with hormones, and fat but is also high in calories.
You are welcome to eat all the cows you want without any judgement from me or
my husband, and we will happily stick to our dietary preferences.

June

ShantiP1 wrote:
> Firstly, we have been married for 44 years and my husband is not some wimp I
> have manipulated. In fact, it's quite the contrary!

Sure it is.

> He eats what he wants and
> although we go out to eat about five times a week, when I do cook, he is happy
> to eat what I eat most of the time and if he isn't, I make him something he
> likes.

That's nice of you.

> As far as mad cow goes,you need to do some research.

I have. I probably know a lot more about TSEs than you ever will.

> Testing only 20,000 cows a
> year when there are over 20,000,000 a year slaughtered for food, doesn't make
> me confident for the populace.

You probably question the accuracy of polling as well. Statistical
sampling is a beneficial tool, especially when the ONLY case of vCJD in
the US involved a young lady of British origin. The US meat supply is
safe. Our testing shows it and so does the testing carried out by
exporters and other governments. US beef was tested for BSE by the
nations who imported it prior to their knee-jerk ban following the
detection of the one Canadian cow.

> Another thing I read a while ago, is that a lot
> of our ground beef is supposedly imported from Europe.

Can you cite where you read this? Why would we import beef from Europe
when domestic production costs so much less? Perhaps YOU are the one who
needs to do a bit more research on BSE/TSEs, CJD, and the beef economy
(domestic and global).

> Before that diseased cow was found to have gotten into US meat supply, my
> husband had already cut down on beef eating and mad cow was just the thing to
> make him decide to eliminate it from his diet altogether. It is his personal
> choice for health and for dietary considerations since beef is not only loaded
> with hormones, and fat but is also high in calories.

Not all beef. Many cuts, including loin, are very low fat and low
calorie. Organic and grass-fed beef is also free of added hormones. BTW,
be sure to tell your husband about the hormones in soy. Those
phytoestrogens will soften him up like any other estrogen will:

Rat pups, exposed to high doses of the plant estrogen coumestrol
(found in sunflower seeds and oil and alfalfa sprouts) through
their mother's milk, suffered permanent reproductive problems:
female pups when grown did not ovulate, and males had altered
mounting behavior and fewer ejaculations (2).
[Whitten, P., C. Lewis and F. Naftolin. 1993. A Phytoestrogen
diet induces the premature anovulatory syndrome in lactationally
exposed female rats. Biology of Reproduction 49:1117-21.]

Neonatal and immature rats exposed to coumestrol experienced
estrogen-related responses, such as premature estrous cycles.
Coumestrol also interrupted ovarian cycles in adult female rats
(3).
[Barrett, J. 1996. Phytoestrogens: Friends or Foes?
Environmental Health Perspectives 104:478-82.]

Newborn rats exposed to the phytoestrogen genistein (a compound
found in soy products), experienced altered hormone secretions
and the onset of puberty may have been delayed because female
rats were exposed to the compound as fetuses (3).
[Ibid.]

“In males, levels of 17B-estradiol and testosterone were not
affected, but levels of 3a, 17B- androstanediol glucuronide (a
metabolite of dihydrotestosterone) and dehydroepiandrosterone
sulfate were decreased by 13% and 14%, respectively, after 2-4
weeks of daily soya ingestion.”
[Supported by USPHS CA56273, CA65628, CA45181, John Sealy
Memorial Endowment Fund for Biomedical Research, American
Institute for Cancer Research grant 95B119, and NIH NCRR GCRC
grant M01 RR00073]

All above lifted from:
http://www.cheapbodybuildingsuppleme...estrogen.shtml

Additionally, see:
http://www.t-mag.com/articles/185soy.html
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter6.htm

You may think you haven't cut his 'nads off yet, but keep feeding him
soy and you will.

> You are welcome to eat all the cows you want without any judgement from me or
> my husband, and we will happily stick to our dietary preferences.

That means you'll keep bossing him around.

My husband doesn't eat soy other than a bit of soy milk once in a while that I
put in a recipe. I prefer rice milk myself as a milk substitute.
Sorry, but I don't remember where I read about the ground beef. It was months
ago that I read that bit of info.
I wouldn't necessarily trust soy tests on rats or other animals without reading
all the stats -- did they use organic soy, etc. who sponsored the test, how
much did the feed the animals, what else were they fed etc.etc. A human can die
from drinking too much water or eating too much nutmeg; but rarely does death
occur from this since most people never eat enough or drink enough in one
sitting to cause harm.
Also, things that can harm animals are often good for humans. Chocolate and
tomatoes can kill a dog. Mushrooms that are poisonous to humans can be safely
eaten by some animals. One has to be careful with these test results and
without all the information I would reserve my judgement.
I'm aware that some meat is lower in fat than other meat, but that is not the
main reason I don't eat meat and my husband has given up beef.
I personally made the choice on a spiritual basis, choosing to put higher
vibrational foods in my body and leave the rotting flesh to those who feel the
need for it or have a desire for it. I have eaten meat and been a vegetarian
and I feel better, lighter on a vegetarian diet. My meditations are also
better, and on a vegetarian diet I also discovered that body odor from
perpspiration disappeared, a surprising and welcome side benefit of a non meat
diet.

June

Just found this which you might find of interest.

By Steve Mitchell
United Press International
Published 1/15/2004 11:35 AM
View printer-friendly version


WASHINGTON, Jan. 15 (UPI) -- Federal agriculture officials did not test any
commercial cattle for mad cow disease through the first seven months of 2003 in
Washington state -- where the first U.S. case of the disease was detected last
month -- according to records obtained by United Press International.

The U.S. Department of Agriculture's records of mad cow screenings, conducted
on 35,000 animals between 2001 to 2003, also reveal no animals were tested for
the past two years at Vern's Moses Lake Meats, the Washington slaughterhouse
where the mad cow case was first detected.

In addition, no mad cow tests were conducted during the two-year period at any
of the six federally registered slaughterhouses in Washington state. This
includes Washington's biggest slaughterhouse, Washington Beef in Toppenish --
the 17th largest in the country, which slaughters 290,000 head per year -- and
two facilities in Pasco that belong to Tyson, the largest beef slaughtering
company in the United States.

Nearly every test conducted in Washington over the two-year period was on
animals from Midway Meats in Centralia, the packing plant where Vern's Moses
sent the infected cow carcass. The meat was distributed to several states where
some people apparently consumed it, raising concerns about the possibility of
contracting the human equivalent of mad cow, an always fatal, brain-wasting
condition known as variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease.

The USDA said the meat posed little risk to consumers because the most
infectious parts -- the brain and spinal cord -- had been removed.

The testing records, obtained by UPI under the Freedom of Information Act,
which the USDA delayed releasing for six months, also show a number of other
gaps in the agency's national surveillance strategy for mad cow disease,
including:

-- Tests were conducted at fewer than 100 of the 700 plants known to slaughter
cattle.

-- Some of the biggest slaughterhouses were not tested at all.

-- Cows from the top four beef producing states, which account for nearly 70
percent of all cattle slaughtered each year in the United States, only
accounted for 11 percent of all the animals screened.

-- Though dairy cattle are considered the most likely to develop mad cow, some
of the top dairy slaughtering plants were sampled only a few times or not at
all.--------------------

Rest of the article can be read at:

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=...4-041124-1470r

Hi June,

Besides all of the other great cookbooks & sites mentioned, "The Millenium
Cookbook"(Eric Tucker) is a great one to have when you want to prepare
something really special. "Great Good Desserts"(Fran Costigan) is nice as well
and "The Modern Vegetarian Kitchen"(Peter Berley) is a good one too.

This site is invaluable for baking and also has an email list:

http://home.teleport.com/~noelvn/veg...an_baking.html

You can also search google groups for a ton of recipes that have been posted
here in the past.

Cheers,

Fritz

Thanks Fritz, I'll check those out.

Regards,
June

ShantiP1 wrote:
> Sorry, but I don't remember where I read about the ground beef. It was months
> ago that I read that bit of info.

You should try to pin it down rather than passing along misleading or
untrue information. Most meats imported from Europe are specialty meats
(e.g., sausages, hams, etc.), not "garden-variety" hamburger. We
exported a lot of hamburger to Europe prior to their knee-jerk ban.

> I wouldn't necessarily trust soy tests on rats or other animals without reading
> all the stats

This coming from a knee-jerk chicken little who thinks beef is dangerous
because *one* cow tested positive for BSE.

> -- did they use organic soy, etc. who sponsored the test, how
> much did the feed the animals, what else were they fed etc.etc.

Irrelevant. All the soy propanganda you read extolling the benefits of
soy note the role of isoflavones. What it doesn't tell you is those same
isolfavones are estrogen. They also don't mention the fact that Asians
use soy in significantly different ways than we do: they eat a little
tofu, a little tempeh, a bit of miso, and a bit of soy sauce; we go hog
wild and use it as meat substitutes, milk, etc.

> A human can die
> from drinking too much water or eating too much nutmeg; but rarely does death
> occur from this since most people never eat enough or drink enough in one
> sitting to cause harm.

Irrelevant. H2O doesn't contain phytoestrogens; soy does.

> Also, things that can harm animals are often good for humans. Chocolate and
> tomatoes can kill a dog. Mushrooms that are poisonous to humans can be safely
> eaten by some animals. One has to be careful with these test results and
> without all the information I would reserve my judgement.

Again, irrelevant comparisons. Those things do not contain estrogens at
the levels of soy.

> I'm aware that some meat is lower in fat than other meat, but that is not the
> main reason I don't eat meat and my husband has given up beef.

I sought to clarify the issue you muddied. You painted with a broad
brush to disparage all meat rather than just those cuts or products
which contain a lot of fat.

> I personally made the choice on a spiritual basis,

Spirituality has nothing to do with diet. This is clear in the teachings
of the most enlightened humans, including Jesus. He said it's not what
goes into someone's mouth that makes him unclean, but what comes out of
it. Even in Eastern traditions, meat is not entirely shunned.

> choosing to put higher
> vibrational foods in my body

Wtf? If your food is vibrating, you need to kill it.

> and leave the rotting flesh to those who feel the
> need for it or have a desire for it.

People who eat meat tend to avoid stuff that's rotting.

> I have eaten meat and been a vegetarian
> and I feel better, lighter on a vegetarian diet.

Maybe light-headed. That part comes out in your posts.

> My meditations are also better,

I'm glad you see benefits to your navel gazing. Maybe someday you'll
reach a point of equilibrium and you'll understand that enlightenment
and diet have nothing to do with each other except to the spiritually
immature.

> and on a vegetarian diet I also discovered that body odor from
> perpspiration disappeared,

This is a figment of your imagination.

> a surprising and welcome side benefit of a non meat
> diet.

It would be only if I had to sniff you. Thank heavens I don't.

Your angry, belitting, mocking attitude points the need for you to perhaps
lighten your body and your spirit.
You would benefit greatly by meditating and skipping putting dense foods in
your body. Your ignorance in these matters if blatantly obvious. If you tried
these things for a few years you would find out how ignorant you are in your
current beliefs. Ignorance is state easily corrected through application of
wisdom.
If you are quoting the bible, Yahweh recommended a non meat diet.
This conversation is over as far as I'm concerned. Your lack of civility and
inability to have an intelligent conversation without resorting to insults
makes you not worthy of my time.

June

ShantiP1 wrote:
> Your angry,

I'm not angry. :-)

> belitting, mocking attitude points the need for you to perhaps
> lighten your body and your spirit.

My body and spirit are lighter than yours.

> You would benefit greatly by meditating and skipping putting dense foods in
> your body.

What dense foods? Let's see, last night I had stirfried veggies over
brown rice. This morning I had a Clif's Bar before my run and just
finished my oatmeal. No meat, eggs, or dairy.

> Your ignorance in these matters if blatantly obvious.

Then you should be able to pinpoint where I'm wrong rather than casting
the aspersion as you have. After all, that's how I've responded to your
points of ignorance.

> If you tried
> these things for a few years you would find out how ignorant you are in your
> current beliefs.

I don't care to waste a few years modeling my behavior after yours.

> Ignorance is state easily corrected through application of
> wisdom.

Actually, it's corrected by *education*. Wisdom, like ignorance is a
state; education is an action. One changes states through action.

> If you are quoting the bible, Yahweh recommended a non meat diet.

I didn't quote chapter and verse, but I will if you wish. He later
revised acceptable diets to include meat, even providing meat for his
people when they asked for it (remember when it rained quail?). He also
inspired St Paul to write, "Let no man judge you according to diet or
drink." Why do you judge others -- and so harshly -- by diet?

> This conversation is over as far as I'm concerned.

No, it isn't. I know your type.

> Your lack of civility and

I'm being civil. I only showed where you were wrong.

> inability to have an intelligent conversation

I'm quite intelligent and very resourceful. Maybe you just feel outmatched.

> without resorting to insults

Oh, I haven't insulted you yet.

> makes you not worthy of my time.

You'll reply.

"ShantiP1" > wrote in message
...
> Your angry, belitting, mocking attitude points the need for you to perhaps
> lighten your body and your spirit.
> You would benefit greatly by meditating and skipping putting dense foods
in
> your body. Your ignorance in these matters if blatantly obvious.
===========================
Obvious to a delusional crackpot full of lys and delusions? I don't think
so killer.


If you tried
> these things for a few years you would find out how ignorant you are in
your
> current beliefs. Ignorance is state easily corrected through application
of
> wisdom.
=======================
Then you'd better get satrted. You have a long way to go to correct the
ignorance and stupidity you spew as a dietary choice.


> If you are quoting the bible, Yahweh recommended a non meat diet.
> This conversation is over as far as I'm concerned. Your lack of civility
and
> inability to have an intelligent conversation without resorting to insults
> makes you not worthy of my time.
======================
Of course not, since you can't refute what he has said, you snip it all out
and the run for cover. Typical tap dance of the vegan loon that has been
bested.


Now, go have a nice blood-drenched lunch, killer.


>
> June

"usual suspect" > wrote in message
...

> What dense foods? Let's see, last night I had stirfried veggies over
> brown rice. This morning I had a Clif's Bar before my run and just
> finished my oatmeal. No meat, eggs, or dairy.

I'm curious about your choice of Clif bars over all the others. What do you
like about them, or what don't you like about the others? I like Kashi bars
but they do contain some dairy.

C. James Strutz wrote:
>>What dense foods? Let's see, last night I had stirfried veggies over
>>brown rice. This morning I had a Clif's Bar before my run and just
>>finished my oatmeal. No meat, eggs, or dairy.
>
> I'm curious about your choice of Clif bars over all the others. What do you
> like about them, or what don't you like about the others? I like Kashi bars
> but they do contain some dairy.

I usually make my own, but these are left over from the Christmas visit
at my mother's (she stocks up on them). So they're gifts. I sort of like
the brownie-style and peanut butter ones, not to fond of the
Apple-Cranberry, Lemon Poppy, or caffeinated ones (which give me a buzz
followed by a headache). The convenience of any of the bars suits my
lifestyle: hard to carry "real" foods when I go climbing, biking,
running, etc.; fruit can bruise or get crushed, or overripen in a
confined bag. Clif's texture doesn't put me off like it seems to do for
others. I think other people expect/want Clif Bars to be like a Snickers
or something. I'm not a big fan of most of Powerbars' stuff for that
reason. Same with Balance Bars. I think I've only had one Kashi bar.

On 11 Jan 2004 00:14:47 GMT, (ShantiP1) wrote:

>I've switched to a vegan diet,
[...]

· Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use
of wood and paper products, and roads and all types of
buildings, and by their own diet just as everyone else does.
What vegans try to avoid are products which provide life
(and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
to avoid the following in order to be successful:
__________________________________________________ _______
Tires, Surgical sutures, Matches, Soaps, Photographic film,
Cosmetics, Shaving cream, Paints, Candles, Crayon/Chalk,
Toothpaste, Deodorants, Mouthwash, Paper, Upholstery,
Floor waxes, Glass, Water Filters, Rubber, Fertilizer,
Antifreeze

http://www.aif.org/lvstock.htm
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
Ceramics, Insecticides, Insulation, Linoleum, Plastic,
Textiles, Blood factors, Collagen, Heparin, Insulin,
Pancreatin, Thrombin, Vasopressin, Vitamin B-12, Asphalt,
auto and jet lubricants, outboard engine oil, high-performance
greases, brake fluid

http://www.teachfree.com/student/wow_that_cow.htm
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
contact-lens care products, glues for paper and cardboard
cartons, bookbinding glue, clarification of wines, Hemostats,
sunscreens and sunblocks, dental floss, hairspray, inks, PVC

http://www.discover.com/aug_01/featcow.html
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
Explosives, Solvents, Industrial Oils, Industrial Lubricants,
Stearic Acid, Biodegradable Detergents, Herbicides, Syringes,
Gelatin Capsules, Bandage Strips, Combs and Toothbrushes,
Emery Boards and Cloth, Adhesive Tape, Laminated Wood Products,
Plywood and Paneling, Wallpaper and Wallpaper Paste, Cellophane
Wrap and Tape, Adhesive Tape, Abrasives, Bone Charcoal for High
Grade Steel, Steel Ball Bearings

http://www.sheepusa.org/environment/products.shtml
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
slaughters, and the animals live and die in it as they do
in any other habitat. They also depend on it for their
lives like the animals in any other habitat. If people
consume animal products from animals they think are
raised in decent ways, they will be promoting life for
more such animals in the future.
From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat. From a grass
raised dairy cow people get thousands of servings of dairy
products. Due to the influence of farm machinery, and *icides,
and in the case of rice the flooding and draining of fields,
one serving of soy or rice based product is likely to involve
more animal deaths than hundreds of servings derived from grass
raised cattle. Grass raised cattle products contribute to less
wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and decent lives for
cattle. ·

Even breathing and walking on the earth causes death to bugs and organisms.
I am on a vegan diet for health reasons and also because I don't want to put
rotting flesh in my body. I also don't want the fear that those animals feel
before they die to go into my consciousness. I've seen how those animals are
kept in the feed lots, and it's a horrible site and I in no way want to
contribute to that.
Enjoy your steaks and I'll enjoy my veggies, rice, grain, fruits, etc.

June the Prune wrote:
> Even breathing and walking on the earth causes death to bugs and organisms.

Yes, you murder without regret.

> I am on a vegan diet for health reasons

No, you are not.

> and also because I don't want to put rotting flesh in my body.

You cannot BUY rotting flesh. The government enforces a modicum of
standards which should prevent that. If it smells or tastes rotten, take
it back to the store or restaurant.

> I also don't want the fear that those animals feel
> before they die to go into my consciousness.

LOL! Those animals rarely know what hit them. Anyway, the only thing
that affects your "consciousness" is your own will. If you're
strong-willed, you've nothing to worry about. If you have a weak
conscience, then even the slightest self-induced guilt trip will cause
you turmoil. Apparently this is true for you.

> I've seen how those animals are
> kept in the feed lots,

So have I. My family are into ranching.

> and it's a horrible site

Some are, some aren't. You like to paint with a broad brush because you
don't want to see reality. That's especially true with people with
simple minds when it comes to complex issues. Why burden yourself
seeking out the "good" ranchers -- those who take excellent care of
their livestock, even raising them entirely on grass, without use of
drugs or hormones, etc. -- when you can call them all "bad"?

> and I in no way want to contribute to that.

You may not want to eat meat, but you still contribute to many animal
deaths. You wear cotton, the most toxic crop on planet Earth, and
possibly synthetics. Both contribute to pollution and death for animals
and humans. You consume rice, which is also one of the most lethal and
toxic crops on the face of the planet as far as animals are concerned;
rice is also responsible for methane, which is a so-called greenhouse
gas. Your monocultured vegetables not only are responsible for erosion
of topsoil, but for clear-cut harvesting which leaves animals that
survive the sickle vulnerable to predation.

> Enjoy your steaks and I'll enjoy my veggies, rice, grain, fruits, etc.

Enjoy the fact that your diet contributes as much (if not more) pain and
suffering to animals than any other diet.

I stated my truth you stated yours. I am not interested in argument. It's a
food that I don't choose to feed my spirit.

a bloated Volvo-driving hausfrau wrote:
> I stated my truth you stated yours.

There are not two truths, but one.

Truth: the state of being the case: FACT; the body of real things,
events, and facts: ACTUALITY, often capitalized; transcendent
fundamental or spiritual reality; a judgment, proposition, or idea that
is true or accepted as true <truths of thermodynamics>; the body of true
statements and propositions; the property (as of a statement) of being
in accord with fact or reality.

We're not discussing (perceptions*, but reality. You paint with a very
broad brush and detest it when your views are shown to be wrong, phony,
misleading, and shallow. You're not the first person to shoot the
messenger, nor are you the first to keep shooting when shown your errors.

> I am not interested in argument.

Who's arguing? I've used facts and reason to clear up where you're wrong
and misleading. You keep spewing vitriol rather than accepting truth.

> It's a food

Yes, exactly. It *is* food, yet you call it names like "rotting flesh"
and you assign all kinds of peril to it despite all the evidence that it
can be healthful to humans and raised humanely. You choose denial and
deceit (the old broad brush is a tool of deception, not of truth) rather
than embracing the positive aspects and options available to those who
like to eat meat. Is that in accord with your spiritual goals, or are
you yet another WASPy charlatan giving lip service to a religion you
think you understand as you drive around town in your Volvo stationwagon
listening to Yanni?

Perhaps you'd be more tolerant of others and their choices if you could
take your gaze off your own navel for a while. The world doesn't revolve
around you or your peculiar beliefs about food.

> that I don't choose to feed my spirit.

Your "spirit" is severely malnourished, and it would be even if you ate
meat. Your problems are much deeper than that.

Sorry, but two statements are people stating their truth. Any third starts an
argument because it is an attempt to negate the other person's truth and get
into power games. It's easy to call names, belittle and insult another -- too
easy; and I'm not interested in trading that kind of energy with you.
I'm done with this thread. Have a nice life!

a corpulent Yanni fan wrote:
> Sorry, but two statements are people stating their truth.

Your incoherence is noted. :-)

> Any third starts an argument because it is an attempt to]
> negate the other person's truth and get into power games.

Not at all, June. Your "truth" is not truth, but a perception -- and a
flawed one at that. It has been shown to be a sham, a lie. Yet you cling
doggedly to it. That is your right, but it is not a sign of enlightenment.

> It's easy to call names, belittle and insult another --

I haven't called you names. I have aptly described you and your modus
operandi. I suppose the truth must hurt, but can it hurt you worse than
your lies? Not all meat is the same: much of it is lean and healthy,
providing nutrients you cannot get in a veg-n diet. And as I have
repeatedly shown you, a veg-n diet doesn't mean "cruelty-free." The
farming that produces your food kills many animals. The *only*
difference between your diet and one that includes meat is the meat:
both produce animal casualties.

> too easy; and I'm not interested in trading that kind
> of energy with you.

Okay. Keep running from the truth.

> I'm done with this thread. Have a nice life!

Same to you. Someday you'll again have to confront reality. Will you
keep turning away and hiding from it, or will you ever face up to it?

Thanks for the links. I've gotten so many wonderful recipes from sites
recommended here that I have what looks like a huge cookbook printed out
already! LOL

Regards,
June

June the Squirrel Killer wrote:
> Thanks for the links. I've gotten so many wonderful recipes from sites
> recommended here that I have what looks like a huge cookbook printed out
> already! LOL

You've been *printing* recipes???!! Paper comes from *trees*. My God,
woman, do you know how many squirrels and birds are killed or left
homeless because of deforestation?!

It's heartless hypocrites like you who think diet plays a role in your
sanctimonious morality, but in reality your diet AND YOUR *EXCESSIVE USE
OF PAPER* kills millions and millions of innocent animals. Your karma is
blood red.


---
Save the animals. Don't eat rice.

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 18:34:29 GMT, usual suspect > wrote:

>The *only*
>difference between your diet and one that includes meat is the meat:
>both produce animal casualties.

No, there is another *huge!* difference. Meat consumers
contribute to the lives of the animals they consume--some
are great, some are horrible, some are okay...--but they do
contribute to billions of them. Vegans don't.

>> too easy; and I'm not interested in trading that kind
>> of energy with you.
>
>Okay. Keep running from the truth.
>
>> I'm done with this thread. Have a nice life!
>
>Same to you. Someday you'll again have to confront reality. Will you
>keep turning away and hiding from it, or will you ever face up to it?

dh_ld wrote:
>>The *only*
>>difference between your diet and one that includes meat is the meat:
>>both produce animal casualties.
>
> No, there is another *huge!* difference. Meat consumers
> contribute to the lives of the animals they consume--some
> are great, some are horrible, some are okay...--but they do
> contribute to billions of them. Vegans don't.

How do you contribute to the lives of the possum and raccoons you eat,
Davey?

On 21 Jan 2004 12:09:49 GMT, (ShantiP1) wrote:

>Even breathing and walking on the earth causes death to bugs and organisms.

Agreed.

> I am on a vegan diet for health reasons and also because I don't want to put
>rotting flesh in my body.

How about if it's not rotting?

>I also don't want the fear that those animals feel
>before they die to go into my consciousness.

You contribute to more suffering by eating most bread than
by eating grass raised beef.

>I've seen how those animals are
>kept in the feed lots, and it's a horrible site and I in no way want to
>contribute to that.

I felt that way for a while. Then I talked to some people
who worked around them. The cattle love it. Once you get
them started eating grain like that, they don't want to go
back to grass. The feed lot is a great place for them during
their final days.

>Enjoy your steaks and I'll enjoy my veggies, rice, grain, fruits, etc.

· From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat. That would
be 750 meals if each included 3/4 pound of meat. From a grass
raised dairy cow people get thousands of dairy servings. Due to
the influence of farm machinery, and *icides, and in the case
of rice the flooding and draining of fields, one meal of soy or
rice based product is likely to involve more animal deaths than
hundreds of meals derived from grass raised cattle. Grass raised
cattle products contribute to less wildlife deaths, better wildlife
habitat, and better lives for cattle than soy or rice products. ·

If nobody's mentioned it yet - don't forget you need Vitamin B12, 250mg a
day. It's essential. Sub-acute degeneration of the Spinal Cord is no joke.

(Buy the 1000mg tabs and break them in four. It's cheaper that way.)

Nemo

herbwormwood > wrote in message
. DE...
> On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 13:53:26 +0000, MEow wrote
> (in message >):
>
> > While frolicking around in alt.food.vegan, ShantiP1 of AOL
> > http://www.aol.com said:
> >
> >> I've switched to a vegan diet, and would love some input on some vegan
> >> websites
> >> with good recipes, or a recommendation for a good vegan cookbook.
> >> I have a few vegetarian cookbooks, but so many recipes have eggs and
dairy.
> >>
> > You can still use a lot of the recipes from your vegetarian cookbook,
> > as long as you replace the milk with soy milk, or some other
> > substitute; if the dish has spices, you will hardly notice the
> > difference.
>
> You can also use some of the egg - containing recipes by substituting egg
> replacer, or tofu, or soya flour.
> Many people on this group can advise on "veganizing" vegetarian recipes.
>
>
> >
> > Vegan recipes can be found at
> >
> > http://www.govegan.net/
> > http://www.vegancooking.com/
> > http://www.vegan-food.net/
> >
> > and you can try Leah Leneman's "Easy vegan cooking"
> >
>
>
>
> --
> for an alternative look at current events, go to
> http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/
>

Thanks, I take a B complex daily as well as a host of other vitamins and
minerals.

Regards,
June

> wrote
> On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 18:34:29 GMT, usual suspect >
wrote:
>
> >The *only*
> >difference between your diet and one that includes meat is the meat:
> >both produce animal casualties.
>
> No, there is another *huge!* difference. Meat consumers
> contribute to the lives of the animals they consume--some
> are great, some are horrible, some are okay...--but they do
> contribute to billions of them. Vegans don't.

That has ZERO moral significance.

It is said that a B12 pill will not be absorbed. Be very careful and
aware of B12.

ShantiP1 wrote:

>Thanks, I take a B complex daily as well as a host of other vitamins and
>minerals.
>
>Regards,
>June
>
>

Beach Runner wrote:
> It is said that a B12 pill will not be absorbed. Be very careful and
> aware of B12.

Heard about this on the radio earlier this morning:

16/01/2004

A new study has found that cereal fortified with vitamin E has a very
high rate of absorption into the bloodstream, whereas pills taken
separately with the same food have inconsistent effects, and taking the
supplements alone is largely useless.

The research was just published in the American Journal of Clinical
Nutrition by scientists from the Linus Pauling Institute at Oregon State
University.

The study points the way to more effective methods of taking this
essential vitamin if people wish to supplement their diet, said Maret
Traber, a professor with OSU`s Linus Pauling Institute and national
expert on vitamin E who recently served on federal panels to update the
RDA for this vitamin.

As an antioxidant, vitamin E is one of the most commonly taken vitamin
supplements in the world and included in virtually every multivitamin pill.

The research may explain, Traber said, why many past research studies
done with vitamin E have varied findings. It`s quite possible, she said,
that the manner in which people took vitamin E supplements and the
variation in its bioavailability from person to person have yielded
widely inconsistent results about the value of this nutrient in heart
disease and other degenerative diseases.

rest of story:
http://www.foodingredientsfirst.com/...29&fSite=AO545