"Jupiter" > wrote in message
om...
> TIA,
> Jupiter

Oysters. They're not sentient as far as we can tell.

-Rubystars

"Rubystars" > wrote in message om>...
> "Jupiter" > wrote in message
> om...
> > TIA,
> > Jupiter
>
> Oysters. They're not sentient as far as we can tell.

Its not a vegan food and the group is alt.food.VEGAN.

Plenty of vegan iron sources.

Steve

"Steve" > wrote in message
om...
> "Rubystars" > wrote in message
om>...
> > "Jupiter" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > TIA,
> > > Jupiter
> >
> > Oysters. They're not sentient as far as we can tell.
>
> Its not a vegan food and the group is alt.food.VEGAN.
>
> Plenty of vegan iron sources.
>
> Steve

Obviously a vegan diet wasn't meeting his/her nutritional needs. So I was
offering the second best choice.

-Rubystars

While frolicking around in alt.food.vegan, Rubystars of SBC
http://yahoo.sbc.com said:

>Obviously a vegan diet wasn't meeting his/her nutritional needs. So I was
>offering the second best choice.
>
It was just the vegan diet, which the OP was following which wasn't
meeting his/her nutritional needs. A different vegan diet might easily
meet the nutritional needs of the OP.
--
Nikitta a.a. #1759 Apatriot(No, not apricot)#18
ICQ# 251532856
Unreferenced footnotes: http://www.nut.house.cx/cgi-bin/nemwiki.pl?ISFN
"I had to have a hot bath with a glass of wine and a bowl of icecream.
It's a hard life." Linz (Sheddie)

"MEow" > wrote in message
...
> While frolicking around in alt.food.vegan, Rubystars of SBC
> http://yahoo.sbc.com said:
>
> >Obviously a vegan diet wasn't meeting his/her nutritional needs. So I was
> >offering the second best choice.
> >
> It was just the vegan diet, which the OP was following which wasn't
> meeting his/her nutritional needs. A different vegan diet might easily
> meet the nutritional needs of the OP.

You're right. I was concerned because if they didn't already know how to get
what they needed from vegan sources then they shouldn't have gone on a vegan
diet to begin with. I thought they might be on the edge of other
deficiencies if they didn't do their research to begin with, so yes, I was
trying to nudge them away from a vegan diet (at least until they were ready
to do it properly).

I'm sorry if that's a bad thing here. I care more for people than I do for
other animals.

-Rubystars

MEow wrote:

> While frolicking around in alt.food.vegan, Rubystars of SBC
> http://yahoo.sbc.com said:
>
>
>>Obviously a vegan diet wasn't meeting his/her nutritional needs. So I was
>>offering the second best choice.
>>
>
> It was just the vegan diet, which the OP was following which wasn't
> meeting his/her nutritional needs. A different vegan diet might easily
> meet the nutritional needs of the OP.

If you have to give that much thought to it, the
"vegan" diet is inherently deficient. A meat-including
diet, ANY meat-including diet at all, would have
prevented the original problem.

Damaging one's health to make a silly symbolic point is
irrational.

Jupiter wrote:

> TIA,

Red meat. You don't need to eat very much of it, but a
few small portions every week should fix the problem.

You're welcome.

Steve wrote:

> "Rubystars" > wrote in message om>...
>
>>"Jupiter" > wrote in message
.com...
>>
>>>TIA,
>>>Jupiter
>>
>>Oysters. They're not sentient as far as we can tell.
>
>
> Its not a vegan food and the group is alt.food.VEGAN.
>
> Plenty of vegan iron sources.

A little bit of red meat, a perfectly natural food that
one doesn't have to analyze, will do the trick.

It is irrational to pursue a purely symbolic diet if
doing so damages your health.

While frolicking around in alt.food.vegan, Rubystars of SBC
http://yahoo.sbc.com said:

>You're right. I was concerned because if they didn't already know how to get
>what they needed from vegan sources then they shouldn't have gone on a vegan
>diet to begin with. I thought they might be on the edge of other
>deficiencies if they didn't do their research to begin with, so yes, I was
>trying to nudge them away from a vegan diet (at least until they were ready
>to do it properly).

I agree that he should've researched first, but that doesn't mean that
he can't research now.
>
>I'm sorry if that's a bad thing here. I care more for people than I do for
>other animals.
>
The people who have helped him finding information about vegan
nutrition show that it's quite possible to care about both.
--
Nikitta a.a. #1759 Apatriot(No, not apricot)#18
ICQ# 251532856
Unreferenced footnotes: http://www.nut.house.cx/cgi-bin/nemwiki.pl?ISFN
"Ten million bad actors CAN'T be wrong!" GAZ (afdaniain)

"MEow" > wrote in message
...
> While frolicking around in alt.food.vegan, Rubystars of SBC
> http://yahoo.sbc.com said:
>
> >You're right. I was concerned because if they didn't already know how to
get
> >what they needed from vegan sources then they shouldn't have gone on a
vegan
> >diet to begin with. I thought they might be on the edge of other
> >deficiencies if they didn't do their research to begin with, so yes, I
was
> >trying to nudge them away from a vegan diet (at least until they were
ready
> >to do it properly).
>
> I agree that he should've researched first, but that doesn't mean that
> he can't research now.

He should research now, but in the mean time he'd better stop experimenting
with his body like that.

> >I'm sorry if that's a bad thing here. I care more for people than I do
for
> >other animals.
> >
> The people who have helped him finding information about vegan
> nutrition show that it's quite possible to care about both.

Yes, it is. The thing is, while he's spending time making sure he's getting
enough iron, he could be deficient in other things because of the previous
lack of research.

I think the best thing would be for him to go back on a diet that includes
animal products until he can do the proper research and then, if he feels
like its the right thing to do, go back on a vegan diet.

-Rubystars

Rubystars wrote:
<...>
>>It was just the vegan diet, which the OP was following which wasn't
>>meeting his/her nutritional needs. A different vegan diet might easily
>>meet the nutritional needs of the OP.
>
> You're right. I was concerned because if they didn't already know how to get
> what they needed from vegan sources then they shouldn't have gone on a vegan
> diet to begin with. I thought they might be on the edge of other
> deficiencies if they didn't do their research to begin with, so yes, I was
> trying to nudge them away from a vegan diet (at least until they were ready
> to do it properly).

That's very fair and considerate. One's health is more important than
one's "values."

> I'm sorry if that's a bad thing here. I care more for people than I do for
> other animals.

Many people here don't. You've seen some of their abusive suggestions
about what should happen to meat eaters and non-AR people.

Have you tried a waste pipe? It's important you make sure that it isn't one
of the plastic ones!
"Jupiter" > wrote in message
om...
> TIA,
> Jupiter


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.541 / Virus Database: 335 - Release Date: 11/14/03

"Rubystars" > wrote in message igy.com>...
> "Steve" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Rubystars" > wrote in message
> om>...
> > > "Jupiter" > wrote in message
> > > om...
> > > > TIA,
> > > > Jupiter
> > >
> > > Oysters. They're not sentient as far as we can tell.
> >
> > Its not a vegan food and the group is alt.food.VEGAN.
> >
> > Plenty of vegan iron sources.
> >
> > Steve
>
> Obviously a vegan diet wasn't meeting his/her nutritional needs. So I was
> offering the second best choice.

That conclusion is a bit of a leap.


I think it is fairly common sense that if you post a message in
alt.food.VEGAN telling someone to stop being vegan that other people
will have something to say about your response.

No offense

"Steve" > wrote in message
<snip>
> > Obviously a vegan diet wasn't meeting his/her nutritional needs. So I
was
> > offering the second best choice.
>
> That conclusion is a bit of a leap.

Not really. They were on a vegan diet and had an iron deficiency. This tells
me that either their body is not suited to it, or more likely, they didn't
do the research necessary to be healthy and nourished on a vegan diet.
Therefore they may be on the verge of other deficiencies, just only noticing
the symptoms of iron deficiency.


> I think it is fairly common sense that if you post a message in
> alt.food.VEGAN telling someone to stop being vegan that other people
> will have something to say about your response.

Sure, I'll discuss it as long as you think we need to. I'm not against him
being on a vegan diet if his convictions lead him to do so. I do think that
he should wait until he's done the proper research before attempting it.

Obviously he didn't research enough and waited until he had an iron
deficiency (and God knows what else) before he came to this group for help.
He could spend all his efforts trying to fight an iron deficiency and then
come down with another sickness in the mean time.

In my opinion, the safest course is for him to go back to eating at least a
small amount of meat, milk, and eggs, until he can do the proper research,
just so he doesn't damage himself in the mean time. THEN, if he feels that
his morals or other things are compelling him to become a vegan, he'll be
going into it the RIGHT way. I'm not asking him to go buy a leather couch
and a fur coat!

One of the reasons he may have chosen to eat a vegan diet could've been for
health. If the diet was poorly researched and is contrary to meeting his
health needs, then he should stop it until he can find out what he needs to
do this the right way.

> No offense

None taken. I was afraid I would offend people but I don't have anything
against the vegans in here and I hope they can understand my concerns and
reasoning.

-Rubystars

Steve wrote:
>>Obviously a vegan diet wasn't meeting his/her nutritional needs. So I was
>>offering the second best choice.
>
> That conclusion is a bit of a leap.

No, it isn't. The OP has a serious issue that's developed due to diet.
Iron deficiency isn't a minor complaint, it's a very serious issue. One
should only make radical dietary changes with lots of information. It's
not unwise at all to recommend taking a step back, restoring one's
health, and then perhaps trying it again with a bit more preparation.

BTW, do you ever recommend people go vegan gradually? Most of the
activists here surely have. How is gradualism *any* different from
Rubystars' recommendation?

> I think it is fairly common sense that if you post a message in
> alt.food.VEGAN telling someone to stop being vegan that other people
> will have something to say about your response.

Yes, how dare she recommend a healthful course of action to an unhealthy
person. Shame on her.

> No offense

She should've taken offense, but I see she hasn't.

Deficiencies can be had regardless of diet. There are plenty of folks who eat
a meat based diet who are deficient in b-12 for instance, due to malabsorption.
Perhaps the OP with "a small iron defficiency" may want to visit his/her Dr.
to find out if he/she is not consuming enough iron or if he/she is not
absorbing it properly... one thing that interferes with absorption is caffeine.
Taking vitamin C with your iron source enhances absorption. The OP may also
want to visit a good (search as they are hard to come by) nutritionist to find
out how they can get all of their needs met through diet.

Also, a good book to have at home is "Becoming Vegan" by Melina & Davis...
probably the best vegan nutrition book out there.

Fritz

"T5NF" > wrote in message
<snip>
> Perhaps the OP with "a small iron defficiency" may want to visit his/her
Dr.
> to find out if he/she is not consuming enough iron or if he/she is not
> absorbing it properly...
<snip>

Excellent idea!

-Rubystars

While frolicking around in alt.food.vegan, Rubystars of SBC
http://yahoo.sbc.com said:

>Yes, it is. The thing is, while he's spending time making sure he's getting
>enough iron, he could be deficient in other things because of the previous
>lack of research.
>
>I think the best thing would be for him to go back on a diet that includes
>animal products until he can do the proper research and then, if he feels
>like its the right thing to do, go back on a vegan diet.
>
I can see what you mean, now that you explain it, but until then it
looked like a criticism of vegan diets, in general, which is why I
reacted.

I don't want anyone to risk their health in order to try eating more
ethically, or whatever reason the OP might have (for some reason, I
stated calling the OP "he", but we can't know, my error), and if it
showed that the diet I'm following is deficient in some way, I'd stop
following it; or I'd rather change it, but you get my point.

I'm always interested in improving my diet, and don't assume that now
I've found the perfect diet for me; there's always room for improving.
I know what food to get what nutrients from, and try to variate
between what I know to be good sources of one nutrient or another, to
get a balanced diet, but I can't guarantee that I'm getting it right;
virtually no one can guarantee that they're getting it right, and
people on a omnivorous diet can get deficiencies too, if they're not
careful.
--
Nikitta a.a. #1759 Apatriot(No, not apricot)#18
ICQ# 251532856
Unreferenced footnotes: http://www.nut.house.cx/cgi-bin/nemwiki.pl?ISFN
"Calling a cow a ruminant quadruped is only funny just so many times."
Ben Newsam (2egger)

"MEow" > wrote in message
...
> While frolicking around in alt.food.vegan, Rubystars of SBC
> http://yahoo.sbc.com said:
>
> >Yes, it is. The thing is, while he's spending time making sure he's
getting
> >enough iron, he could be deficient in other things because of the
previous
> >lack of research.
> >
> >I think the best thing would be for him to go back on a diet that
includes
> >animal products until he can do the proper research and then, if he feels
> >like its the right thing to do, go back on a vegan diet.
> >
> I can see what you mean, now that you explain it, but until then it
> looked like a criticism of vegan diets, in general, which is why I
> reacted.

That's ok. I don't have anything against the vegans or vegan diets. I
actually admire the resolve of vegans for being able to make delicious meals
without using animal products, and for being able to stick to it for so
long, in cultures that are full of meat eaters. I just think if someone
wants to do this, for any reason, they should go into it with the knowledge
they need to stay safe and healthy.

> I don't want anyone to risk their health in order to try eating more
> ethically, or whatever reason the OP might have (for some reason, I
> stated calling the OP "he", but we can't know, my error), and if it
> showed that the diet I'm following is deficient in some way, I'd stop
> following it; or I'd rather change it, but you get my point.

Ok.

> I'm always interested in improving my diet, and don't assume that now
> I've found the perfect diet for me; there's always room for improving.

Yeah, I've been cutting down on meat myself to help keep my
cholesterol/blood pressure down, but I still eat some. I'm sure my diet
could improve a lot from what it is now by eating a bigger variety of
vegetables, etc.

> I know what food to get what nutrients from, and try to variate
> between what I know to be good sources of one nutrient or another, to
> get a balanced diet, but I can't guarantee that I'm getting it right;
> virtually no one can guarantee that they're getting it right, and
> people on a omnivorous diet can get deficiencies too, if they're not
> careful.

Yes, everyone has the chance of getting deficiencies, but when you go on a
diet such as a vegan diet that cuts out whole classes of foods then it
raises the risk considerably. That's why I think if someone is going to go
on a special diet that they should research, research, research, and then
when they go on it, they should never stop researching.

That could help anyone, no matter what diet they currently follow.

-Rubystars

While frolicking around in alt.food.vegan, Rubystars of SBC
http://yahoo.sbc.com said:

>That's ok. I don't have anything against the vegans or vegan diets. I
>actually admire the resolve of vegans for being able to make delicious meals
>without using animal products, and for being able to stick to it for so
>long, in cultures that are full of meat eaters. I just think if someone
>wants to do this, for any reason, they should go into it with the knowledge
>they need to stay safe and healthy.
>
I agree entirely with that. You don't help anyone by risking your
health.

>> I'm always interested in improving my diet, and don't assume that now
>> I've found the perfect diet for me; there's always room for improving.
>
>Yeah, I've been cutting down on meat myself to help keep my
>cholesterol/blood pressure down, but I still eat some. I'm sure my diet
>could improve a lot from what it is now by eating a bigger variety of
>vegetables, etc.
>
It varies how much energy I can be bothered to put int cooking, but I
suppose it does for all people. Going by what I feel like, while still
keeping an eye on what nutrients I get seems to be reasonable, to me.

I don't know why I suddenly want cous-cous salad, but, with the right
veggies, it can be a good source for different nutrients, so why not?
I also find myself wanting fried carrots with curry, and other typical
(to me) summer food.

I also finally got around to pick up my mandoline, which has been
Elsewhere, so cutting veggies gets a lot easier for me, as I can be a
bit clumsy.

>> I know what food to get what nutrients from, and try to variate
>> between what I know to be good sources of one nutrient or another, to
>> get a balanced diet, but I can't guarantee that I'm getting it right;
>> virtually no one can guarantee that they're getting it right, and
>> people on a omnivorous diet can get deficiencies too, if they're not
>> careful.
>
>Yes, everyone has the chance of getting deficiencies, but when you go on a
>diet such as a vegan diet that cuts out whole classes of foods then it
>raises the risk considerably.

I have some friends who like meat a lot, but don't like vegetables,
and I'll bet that they have some sort of deficiency. I don't say
anything to them, as they know better, themselves. OTOH, I think that
most people could benefit from a vitamin supplement, as nobody follows
a perfect diet, so better safe than sorry.

>That's why I think if someone is going to go
>on a special diet that they should research, research, research, and then
>when they go on it, they should never stop researching.
>
>That could help anyone, no matter what diet they currently follow.
>
I couldn't agree more.
--
Nikitta a.a. #1759 Apatriot(No, not apricot)#18
ICQ# 251532856
Unreferenced footnotes: http://www.nut.house.cx/cgi-bin/nemwiki.pl?ISFN
"Calling a cow a ruminant quadruped is only funny just so many times."
Ben Newsam (2egger)

"MEow" > wrote in message
<Snip>
> It varies how much energy I can be bothered to put int cooking, but I
> suppose it does for all people. Going by what I feel like, while still
> keeping an eye on what nutrients I get seems to be reasonable, to me.
>
> I don't know why I suddenly want cous-cous salad, but, with the right
> veggies, it can be a good source for different nutrients, so why not?
> I also find myself wanting fried carrots with curry, and other typical
> (to me) summer food.

Yeah, when I start craving a particular food I usually try to go and get it
because I feel like my body needs something in it.

> I also finally got around to pick up my mandoline, which has been
> Elsewhere, so cutting veggies gets a lot easier for me, as I can be a
> bit clumsy.

I got a chopper to help me chop up onions and bell peppers.

<snip>
> >Yes, everyone has the chance of getting deficiencies, but when you go on
a
> >diet such as a vegan diet that cuts out whole classes of foods then it
> >raises the risk considerably.
>
> I have some friends who like meat a lot, but don't like vegetables,
> and I'll bet that they have some sort of deficiency.

They probably do. Vegetables are extremely important.

> I don't say
> anything to them, as they know better, themselves. OTOH, I think that
> most people could benefit from a vitamin supplement, as nobody follows
> a perfect diet, so better safe than sorry.

Yeah you're right. I know that no matter what I'm currently eating, I always
feel better when I'm taking vitamin supplements.

-Rubystars

Just to add one more thing... alot of vegetarians (and probably carnivores as
well) are iron deficient due to milk comsumption. From "You Are What You Eat"
by Kirsten Hartvig & Dr. Nic Rowley:

"In any case, drinking too much cow's milk is a known risk factor for
developing iron deficiency anemia. Calcium in cow's milk interferes with the
absorption of iron from the diet".

Even though you may *think* you're getting what you need from your diet,
sometimes it's actually taking things away from you.

Fritz

T5NF wrote:
> Just to add one more thing... alot of vegetarians (and probably carnivores as
> well) are iron deficient due to milk comsumption. From "You Are What You Eat"
> by Kirsten Hartvig & Dr. Nic Rowley:
>
> "In any case, drinking too much cow's milk is a known risk factor for
> developing iron deficiency anemia. Calcium in cow's milk interferes with the
> absorption of iron from the diet".

Not consumption, OVER-consumption -- "drinking TOO MUCH milk." Too much
of anything can be bad. And if you think dairy is bad, consider that
consumption of grains and legumes, spinach, tea, and coffee -- all the
stuff a vegan eats -- can also reduce iron absorption:
Dietary factors that can reduce non-heme iron absorption
include phytates (found in grains, legumes, and rice); soy
protein and soy fiber; oxalates (found in spinach); and tannic
acid (found in teas and coffee). Calcium (found in dairy
products) can reduce the absorption of both non-heme and heme
iron (1).

A vegan diet has NO heme iron, which comes from red meat, fish, and
poultry. Non-heme is harder to absorb. A vegan diet in and of itself can
lead to an iron deficiency. Passing up dairy won't help someone with
anemia if he or she is eating grains and legumes and drinking tea and
coffee. Such a person is going to better off with heme iron (which
absorbs immediately) foods like red meat, fish, and poultry.

> Even though you may *think* you're getting what you need from your diet,
> sometimes it's actually taking things away from you.

Yes, that includes a *vegan* diet consisting of grains and legumes,
coffee and tea, and oxalate rich foods like spinach and chocolate. I
wonder how many vegans here eat those kinds of foods.

Source:
http://nutrition.ucdavis.edu/InfoSheets/iron.htm

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 11:51:43 -0500, James wrote:

> Red meat. You don't need to eat very much of it,

Right you are! In fact, zero ounces per week seems to be the most
healthful amount.

--
me.kirchhoff

Thanks people. I do really have just a small iron ser. defficiency 59
ug% and the range is 60-160. As well I am a diabetic and vegan just
at home, vegetarian at people's dinners.

I will try to eat more lentilles and other stuff you recommended.
All other analysis are normal, I have checked them as well.

I would never go back on animals meat eating and am looking forward
for complete vegan lifestyle.

Thanks again.

Jupiter

Thanks people. I do really have just a small iron ser. defficiency 59
ug% and the range is 60-160. As well I am a diabetic and vegan just
at home, vegetarian at people's dinners.

I will try to eat more lentilles and other stuff you recommended.
All other analysis are normal, I have checked them as well.

I would never go back on animals meat eating and am looking forward
for complete vegan lifestyle.

Thanks again.

Jupiter

"Jupiter" > wrote in message
om...
> Thanks people. I do really have just a small iron ser. defficiency 59
> ug% and the range is 60-160. As well I am a diabetic and vegan just
> at home, vegetarian at people's dinners.
>
> I will try to eat more lentilles and other stuff you recommended.
> All other analysis are normal, I have checked them as well.
>
> I would never go back on animals meat eating and am looking forward
> for complete vegan lifestyle.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> Jupiter

It's ok if you don't eat meat but make sure you talk to your doctor and ask
him what foods that he recommends and make sure that you do more research on
this because I'm really afraid you may have more than just iron. Also make
sure you're getting enough B12 and zinc and other nutrients.

A multivitamin wouldn't hurt either.

-Rubystars

Jupiter wrote:
> Thanks people. I do really have just a small iron ser. defficiency 59
> ug% and the range is 60-160. As well I am a diabetic and vegan just
> at home, vegetarian at people's dinners.
>
> I will try to eat more lentilles and other stuff you recommended.
> All other analysis are normal, I have checked them as well.

Lentils are a legume:

Dietary factors that can reduce non-heme iron absorption
include phytates (found in grains, legumes, and rice); soy
protein and soy fiber; oxalates (found in spinach); and tannic
acid (found in teas and coffee). Calcium (found in dairy
products) can reduce the absorption of both non-heme and heme
iron (1).

http://nutrition.ucdavis.edu/InfoSheets/iron.htm

A vegan diet has NO heme iron, which comes from red meat, fish, and
poultry. Non-heme is harder to absorb. A vegan diet in and of itself can
lead to an iron deficiency. Passing up dairy won't help someone with
anemia if he or she is eating grains and legumes and drinking tea and
coffee. Such a person is going to better off with heme iron (which
absorbs immediately) foods like red meat, fish, and poultry.

Check with your doctor. You already have diabetes. Sounds like you
really need a nutritionist to help you figure things out rather than
trying to handle it yourself.

> I would never go back on animals meat eating and am looking forward
> for complete vegan lifestyle.

I wish you well, but I think your underlying health shows that you need
professional assistance with your diet. A nutritionist can help you find
foods that will help you control your diabetes without further depleting
your iron levels. As you can see above, grains, soy protein, and legumes
(not to mention coffee and tea and chocolate) can affect your absorption
since you're not getting any heme iron. All of those carbs aren't good
for your diabetes. A little red meat will benefit the glycemic load of
the rest of your diet AND get you some iron. Check with a nutritionist,
okay?

While frolicking around in alt.food.vegan, Rubystars of SBC
http://yahoo.sbc.com said:

>Yeah, when I start craving a particular food I usually try to go and get it
>because I feel like my body needs something in it.
>
True, though mood, habit and culture also plays a great part. Surely
rye bread with potatoes and tomatoes on top contains a lot of
beneficial things, but I doubt I'd crave it, as much as I do at times,
if I hadn't grown up with it, IYSWIM. Then there's also the craving
for chocolate once a month, which can hardly be for nutritional
reasons ;0)

BTW: I found a pretty good non-dairy "yoghurt", which wasn't overly
sweet, as non-dairy "yoghurt" tends to be, today. It was called
"Beneviva", in case anyone wanted to know. Beneviva also makes a
non-dairy "cheese" spread, which I think is quite good too.

>> I also finally got around to pick up my mandoline, which has been
>> Elsewhere, so cutting veggies gets a lot easier for me, as I can be a
>> bit clumsy.
>
>I got a chopper to help me chop up onions and bell peppers.
>
So do I :0)
--
Nikitta a.a. #1759 Apatriot(No, not apricot)#18
ICQ# 251532856
Unreferenced footnotes: http://www.nut.house.cx/cgi-bin/nemwiki.pl?ISFN
"Benighted lot, them RLers." Sn!pe (Sheddie)

"MEow" > wrote in message
...
> While frolicking around in alt.food.vegan, Rubystars of SBC
> http://yahoo.sbc.com said:
>
> >Yeah, when I start craving a particular food I usually try to go and get
it
> >because I feel like my body needs something in it.
> >
> True, though mood, habit and culture also plays a great part. Surely
> rye bread with potatoes and tomatoes on top contains a lot of
> beneficial things, but I doubt I'd crave it, as much as I do at times,
> if I hadn't grown up with it, IYSWIM.

Yeah you're right, other factors play a big part too, but I think that
nearly all cultures include foods that cover all the nutritional bases, so
when you're craving, for example, potatoes, it may be because you need
something in it, whereas, if you were growing up in Africa, you might be
craving cassava instead.

>Then there's also the craving
> for chocolate once a month, which can hardly be for nutritional
> reasons ;0)

Well chocolate isn't bad for people if they don't eat too much of it. If
it wasn't fattening and full of sugar I'd eat it every day. *L* But I know
that's not really healthy.

> BTW: I found a pretty good non-dairy "yoghurt", which wasn't overly
> sweet, as non-dairy "yoghurt" tends to be, today. It was called
> "Beneviva", in case anyone wanted to know. Beneviva also makes a
> non-dairy "cheese" spread, which I think is quite good too.

Cool.

-Rubystars

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:44:09 -0500, usual suspect wrote:

> A little red meat will benefit the glycemic load of
> the rest of your diet AND get you some iron. Check with a nutritionist,
> okay?

Why do you continue to encourage the consumption of meat? There are
plenty of non-flesh sources of iron, and even though non-heme iron is not
as readily absorbed as heme, the absorption rate can be improved by
eating a good source of Vitamin C in addition.

I agree that she should consult a professional given the complications
involved with diabetes but your constant pleas for consuming animal
products is absurd; veganism is first and foremost a matter of ethics,
*not* health.

--
me.kirchhoff

"me.kirchhoff" > wrote in message
<snip>
> I agree that she should consult a professional given the complications
> involved with diabetes but your constant pleas for consuming animal
> products is absurd; veganism is first and foremost a matter of ethics,
> *not* health.

That's exactly why this person's case is raising concern. Personally I think
a person's health should come as a higher priority than the life of another
animal.

-Rubystars

"me.kirchhoff" > wrote in message
newsan.2003.11.26.22.44.56.865679.337@0ubliette. org...
> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 16:44:09 -0500, usual suspect wrote:
>
> > A little red meat will benefit the glycemic load of
> > the rest of your diet AND get you some iron. Check with a nutritionist,
> > okay?
>
> Why do you continue to encourage the consumption of meat? There are
> plenty of non-flesh sources of iron, and even though non-heme iron is not
> as readily absorbed as heme, the absorption rate can be improved by
> eating a good source of Vitamin C in addition.
>
> I agree that she should consult a professional given the complications
> involved with diabetes but your constant pleas for consuming animal
> products is absurd; veganism is first and foremost a matter of ethics,
> *not* health.
=======================
That's the claim. Vegans here on usenet prove that false with every post
though.
It's not about 'ethics', it's about a simple rule, eat no meat. they have
no idea of
any impact it does or does not have on animals overall, but it 'feels' good.



>
> --
> me.kirchhoff

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 23:59:05 -0500, Rubystars wrote:


> "me.kirchhoff" > wrote in message <snip>
>> I agree that she should consult a professional given the complications
>> involved with diabetes but your constant pleas for consuming animal
>> products is absurd; veganism is first and foremost a matter of ethics,
>> *not* health.
>
> That's exactly why this person's case is raising concern. Personally I
> think a person's health should come as a higher priority than the life
> of another animal.

There's no need to risk the life of another animal. Nothing in an
omnivorous diet exists that cannot be found in a vegan one. Obviously, I
do not know her entire set of circumstances, but I know that I would
*never* kill (either directly or by association) an animal to benefit my
own health. I would forever seek--to the death--alternatives. But that is the
strength of my ethical conviction. Your mileage may vary :P

--
me.kirchhoff

"me.kirchhoff" > wrote in message
newsan.2003.11.27.00.25.52.300059.337@0ubliette. org...
> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 23:59:05 -0500, Rubystars wrote:
>
>
> > "me.kirchhoff" > wrote in message <snip>
> >> I agree that she should consult a professional given the complications
> >> involved with diabetes but your constant pleas for consuming animal
> >> products is absurd; veganism is first and foremost a matter of ethics,
> >> *not* health.
> >
> > That's exactly why this person's case is raising concern. Personally I
> > think a person's health should come as a higher priority than the life
> > of another animal.
>
> There's no need to risk the life of another animal. Nothing in an
> omnivorous diet exists that cannot be found in a vegan one. Obviously, I
> do not know her entire set of circumstances, but I know that I would
> *never* kill (either directly or by association) an animal to benefit my
> own health. I would forever seek--to the death--alternatives. But that is
the
> strength of my ethical conviction. Your mileage may vary :P
>
> --
> me.kirchhoff

That's totally your choice of course, and you have the right to make it.
What I question is the idea of asking someone else to make the same
sacrifice of their own health to satisfy your ethical goals.

-Rubystars

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 00:11:10 -0500, rick etter wrote:

> That's the claim. Vegans here on usenet prove that false with every
> post though.
> It's not about 'ethics', it's about a simple rule, eat no meat. they
> have no idea of
> any impact it does or does not have on animals overall, but it 'feels'
> good.

I'm sure that's true in some cases. There are ignorant vegans just as
there are ignorant omnivores.

For me, it is first and foremost an ethical choice. The benefit of
health is an added bonus.

--
me.kirchhoff

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 00:37:05 -0500, Rubystars wrote:
>
> That's totally your choice of course, and you have the right to make it.
> What I question is the idea of asking someone else to make the same
> sacrifice of their own health to satisfy your ethical goals.
>
> -Rubystars

I didn't mean to suggest that I'm imposing my beliefs on her. I
apologize if that's the way it sounded.

--
me.kirchhoff

"me.kirchhoff" > wrote in message
newsan.2003.11.27.01.06.33.212975.337@0ubliette. org...
> On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 00:37:05 -0500, Rubystars wrote:
> >
> > That's totally your choice of course, and you have the right to make it.
> > What I question is the idea of asking someone else to make the same
> > sacrifice of their own health to satisfy your ethical goals.
> >
> > -Rubystars
>
> I didn't mean to suggest that I'm imposing my beliefs on her. I
> apologize if that's the way it sounded.

Ok, I'm sorry for taking it that way.

-Rubystars

"me.kirchhoff" > wrote in message
newsan.2003.11.27.00.38.47.760106.337@0ubliette. org...
> On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 00:11:10 -0500, rick etter wrote:
>
> > That's the claim. Vegans here on usenet prove that false with every
> > post though.
> > It's not about 'ethics', it's about a simple rule, eat no meat. they
> > have no idea of
> > any impact it does or does not have on animals overall, but it 'feels'
> > good.
>
> I'm sure that's true in some cases. There are ignorant vegans just as
> there are ignorant omnivores.
>
> For me, it is first and foremost an ethical choice.
=====================
LOL What 'ethics'? The 'ethics' that you don't unnecessarily cause animal
death and suffering?
You're delusional if you think that, killer. Your posts to usenet cause
death and suffering.
Your diet causes death and suffering. There are meat included diets that
cause less than vegan diets.



The benefit of
> health is an added bonus.
=====================
Again, it's not the 'vegan' part that makes a diet healthy.

there are nutrients you cannot get from plants, without fortifications or
suppliments. You figure the processes
that produce these are cruelty free?

>
> --
> me.kirchhoff

"me.kirchhoff" > wrote in message
newsan.2003.11.27.00.25.52.300059.337@0ubliette. org...
> On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 23:59:05 -0500, Rubystars wrote:
>
>
> > "me.kirchhoff" > wrote in message <snip>
> >> I agree that she should consult a professional given the complications
> >> involved with diabetes but your constant pleas for consuming animal
> >> products is absurd; veganism is first and foremost a matter of ethics,
> >> *not* health.
> >
> > That's exactly why this person's case is raising concern. Personally I
> > think a person's health should come as a higher priority than the life
> > of another animal.
>
> There's no need to risk the life of another animal. Nothing in an
> omnivorous diet exists that cannot be found in a vegan one.
=====================
Wrong...



Obviously, I
> do not know her entire set of circumstances, but I know that I would
> *never* kill (either directly or by association) an animal to benefit my
> own health.
=======================
You do that already...

I would forever seek--to the death--alternatives. But that is the
> strength of my ethical conviction. Your mileage may vary :P
>
> --
> me.kirchhoff