On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 15:53:56 -0700 (PDT), javawizard > wrote:

>Have you come across any interesting sayings about vegetarianism to
>add to www.clip-text.com ?

The following is certainly one of the main things to keep in mind:

· Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of
buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.
What they try to avoid are products which provide life
(and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
to avoid the following items containing animal by-products
in order to be successful:

Tires, Paper, Upholstery, Floor waxes, Glass, Water
Filters, Rubber, Fertilizer, Antifreeze, Ceramics, Insecticides,
Insulation, Linoleum, Plastic, Textiles, Blood factors, Collagen,
Heparin, Insulin, Solvents, Biodegradable Detergents, Herbicides,
Gelatin Capsules, Adhesive Tape, Laminated Wood Products,
Plywood, Paneling, Wallpaper and Wallpaper Paste, Cellophane
Wrap and Tape, Abrasives, Steel Ball Bearings

The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
slaughters, and the animals live and die as a result of it
as animals do in other habitats. They also depend on it for
their lives as animals do in other habitats. If people consume
animal products from animals they think are raised in decent
ways, they will be promoting life for more such animals in the
future. People who want to contribute to decent lives for
livestock with their lifestyle must do it by being conscientious
consumers of animal products, because they can not do it by
being vegan.
From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is
likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings
derived from grass raised animals. Grass raised animal products
contribute to fewer wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and
better lives for livestock than soy or rice products. ·

Rudy Canoza wrote:
> Goo - ****wit David Harrison, stupid pig-****ing cracker - woke up and
> said, "How can I be even *more* stupid today than I was yesterday?", and
> so he wrote:
>> On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 15:53:56 -0700 (PDT), javawizard
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Have you come across any interesting sayings about vegetarianism to
>>> add to www.clip-text.com ?
>>
>> The following is certainly one of the main things to keep in mind:
>
> "Getting to experience life" is not a benefit to livestock. Livestock
> animals do not "get something from the arrangement" by being bred into
> existence.
>
> Yes, you must keep that in mind. It will help you to see the fatal flaw
> of the "Logic of the Larder".
What do draft animals get? What do miniature dogs get other than a
totally synthetic existence without any of the real wild world their
canine ancestors had?

Day Brown wrote:
> Rudy Canoza wrote:
>> Goo - ****wit David Harrison, stupid pig-****ing cracker - woke up and
>> said, "How can I be even *more* stupid today than I was yesterday?", and
>> so he wrote:
>>> On Fri, 1 Aug 2008 15:53:56 -0700 (PDT), javawizard
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Have you come across any interesting sayings about vegetarianism to
>>>> add to www.clip-text.com ?
>>>
>>> The following is certainly one of the main things to keep in mind:
>>
>> "Getting to experience life" is not a benefit to livestock. Livestock
>> animals do not "get something from the arrangement" by being bred into
>> existence.
>>
>> Yes, you must keep that in mind. It will help you to see the fatal
>> flaw of the "Logic of the Larder".
> What do draft animals get? What do miniature dogs get other than a
> totally synthetic existence without any of the real wild world their
> canine ancestors had?

They don't compare their existences to those of their
ancestors, so those wonderful past animal lives you
imagine have no meaning.

On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 21:43:49 -0500, Day Brown > wrote:

>What do miniature dogs get other than a
>totally synthetic existence without any of the real wild world their
>canine ancestors had?

How much of it do you think they would want? How much
of it do you think they could survive? How much of the real wild
world your ancestors had do you think you want? How much of
it do you think you could survive?

dh@. wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 21:43:49 -0500, Day Brown > wrote:
>
>> What do miniature dogs get other than a
>> totally synthetic existence without any of the real wild world their
>> canine ancestors had?
>
> How much of it do you think they would want? How much
> of it do you think they could survive? How much of the real wild
> world your ancestors had do you think you want? How much of
> it do you think you could survive?
Their brains are miniaturized as well, so what they want varies both
from one dog to the next, but also a normal breed. My neck of Ozark
woods has cayotes and some kind of large feline that would have such a
dog for lunch within a week.

My DNA suggests I am descended from yeoman farmers over the course of
the last 10,000 years, so my neck of partly farmed, partly forested
Ozark woods feels familiar. I've been here for most of the last 40 years
and could do another 40 were I not already 69.

There's a lotta land here that is too steep to plow, but works well as
pasture or open woods- which goats and deer browse to keep down the
brush, which maximizes the growth of trees twards climax forest. I've
seen both wild and domestic swine as well.

But short of dosing the animals with birth control, the next best thing
is to cull the stock, preferably in late fall, otherwise a hard winter
would starve most of them out. This is what my ancestors have done for
10,000 years assuming the data from the bone middens is credible. None
of my ancestors ate as much meat as folks do now, but none were vegans
either. I try to replicate their diet.

I've also suggested that after I die, they do as my ancestors did, and
drag my body out into the woods for the carrion eaters.

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 02:00:55 -0500, Day Brown > wrote:

>dh@. wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 21:43:49 -0500, Day Brown > wrote:
>>
>>> What do miniature dogs get other than a
>>> totally synthetic existence without any of the real wild world their
>>> canine ancestors had?
>>
>> How much of it do you think they would want? How much
>> of it do you think they could survive? How much of the real wild
>> world your ancestors had do you think you want? How much of
>> it do you think you could survive?
>Their brains are miniaturized as well,

From what I've seen and been told, the miniatures have as much
intelligence as full sized dogs. I've asked people how it can be that
a miniature dog like that can be as smart as a dog whose brain is
almost as big as the small dog is, but no one I've asked has known
the answer.

>so what they want varies both
>from one dog to the next, but also a normal breed. My neck of Ozark
>woods has cayotes and some kind of large feline that would have such a
>dog for lunch within a week.

So they get what they should get in order to survive.

>My DNA suggests I am descended from yeoman farmers over the course of
>the last 10,000 years, so my neck of partly farmed, partly forested
>Ozark woods feels familiar. I've been here for most of the last 40 years
>and could do another 40 were I not already 69.

Even so your world is nothing like your ancestors', and you wouldn't
survive long if it was.

>There's a lotta land here that is too steep to plow, but works well as
>pasture or open woods- which goats and deer browse to keep down the
>brush, which maximizes the growth of trees twards climax forest. I've
>seen both wild and domestic swine as well.
>
>But short of dosing the animals with birth control, the next best thing
>is to cull the stock, preferably in late fall, otherwise a hard winter
>would starve most of them out.

Better to cull and eat them then.

>This is what my ancestors have done for
>10,000 years assuming the data from the bone middens is credible. None
>of my ancestors ate as much meat as folks do now, but none were vegans
>either. I try to replicate their diet.

Still you're not living as they did, and couldn't if you tried. None
of us do or could.

>I've also suggested that after I die, they do as my ancestors did, and
>drag my body out into the woods for the carrion eaters.

That you might be able to do as your ancestors did, but you
couldn't live like them and wouldn't like it if you could. None of
us would.

dh@. wrote:
> Still you're not living as they did, and couldn't if you tried. None
> of us do or could.
>
>> I've also suggested that after I die, they do as my ancestors did, and
>> drag my body out into the woods for the carrion eaters.
>
> That you might be able to do as your ancestors did, but you
> couldn't live like them and wouldn't like it if you could. None of
> us would.
That remains to be seen; at my age, it hardly matters, just one more
year for my 3 score and ten. And survival until then mite reside on
whether I have enuf ammo, or whether anyone who wants what I have knows
or happens to come by.

But if push comes to shove, I already have a lot of food harvested from
my garden, have turnips in for this fall, and lots of other tubers to
dig if need be that would last until the first produce comes in from the
garden next spring.

YMMV depending on where you are. Jared Diamond, in the last part of his
latest "Collapse" goes into those areas which recover and adapt quickly
after a systemic breakdown. Among other things, he cites a homogeneous
population. If there are minorities, demagogues tend to arise to
scapegoat them, but if not, then people tend to pull together to find
common solutions.

He also cites standing timber for construction and firewood. What he
dont mention, which we also have here in the Ozarks, is steep wooded
terrain that, because of the facility for snipers, is very difficult for
armed invaders to deal with. Read Clausewitz.

Another asset is grass fed beef; there are a dozen cattle here for every
person. These small farms still have a lotta horse drawn equipment
around, often restored for display as yard art. Riding horses, which are
all over the place, are not hard to train to harness. I've done it.

Anyone with 1/4 acre of garden here can grow all the food they need; the
question is whether civil order breaks down so far they dont get to eat
it, and whether they are in good enuf physical condition to work at it.
I grant you that the vast majority of urbanites would not be able to
handle it, and would not be aware of the 0.1% of the population which
was born and raised on farms like I was.