"Vitamin B-12 status of long-term adherents of a strict uncooked vegan
diet (‘living food diet’) is compromised."
Rauma AL, Torronen R, Hanninen O, Mykkanen H.

Journal of Nutrition, 1995 Oct; vol. 125, pp. 2511-5.

Abstract:
The present study examined the vitamin
B-12 status in long-term adherents of a strict uncooked
vegan diet called the "living food diet." The study was
comprised of two parts. In the cross-sectional part, the
data on serum vitamin B-12 concentrations and dietary
intakes in 21 (1 male, 20 females) long-term adherents
(mean 5.2 y, range 0.7-14) of the "living food diet"
were compared with those of 21 omnivorous controls
matched for sex, age, social status and residence. In
the longitudinal part of the study, food consumption
data were collected and blood samples were taken from
nine "living food eaters" (1 male, 8 females) on two
occasions 2 y apart. The cross-sectional study revealed
significantly (P < 0.001, paired t test) lower serum
vitamin B-12 concentrations in the vegans (mean 193
pmol/L, range 35-408) compared with their matched
omnivorous controls (311, 131-482). In the vegan
group, total vitamin B-12 intake correlated significantly
(r = 0.63, P < 0.01) with serum vitamin B-12 concen
tration. The vegans consuming Nori and/or Chlorella
seaweeds (n = 16) had serum vitamin B-12 concentra
tions twice as high as those not using these seaweeds
(n = 5) (mean 221 pmol/L, range 75-408, vs. 105,
35-252, P = 0.025). In the longitudinal study, six of
nine vegans showed slow, but consistent deterioration
of vitamin B-12 status over a 2-y observation period.
On the basis of these results we conclude that some
seaweeds consumed in large amounts can supply ad
equate amounts of bioavailable vitamin B-12. However,
the average use of seaweeds and fermented foods by
"living food eaters" will not supply enough vitamin B-
12 to maintain the body vitamin B-12 status. J. Mutr.
125:2511-2515, 1995.

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/125/10/2511


"Metabolic vitamin B12 status on a mostly raw vegan diet with follow-
up using tablets, nutritional yeast, or probiotic supplements."
Donaldson MS.
Annals of Nutrition and Metabolism, 2000; vol. 44, pp. 229-34.

Abstract:
Pure vegetarian diets might cause cobalamin deficiency due to lack of
dietary intake. It was hypothesized that a population following a
vegan diet consuming mostly raw fruits and vegetables, carrot juice,
and dehydrated barley grass juice would be able to avoid vitamin B12
deficiency naturally. METHODS: Subjects were recruited at a health
ministers' reunion based on adherence to the Hallelujah diet for at
least 2 years. Serum cobalamin and urinary methylmalonic acid (MMA)
assays were performed. Follow-up with sublingual tablets, nutritional
yeast, or probiotic supplements was carried out on subjects with
abnormal MMA results. RESULTS: 49 subjects were tested. Most subjects
(10th to 90th percentile) had followed this diet 23-49 months. 6
subjects had serum B12 concentrations <147 pmol/l (200 pg/ml). 37
subjects (76%) had serum B12 concentrations <221 pmol/l (300 pg/ml).
23 subjects (47%) had abnormal urinary MMA concentrations above or
equal to 4.0 microg/mg creatinine. Sublingual cyanocobalamin and
nutritional yeast, but not probiotic supplements, significantly
reduced group mean MMA concentrations (tablet p < 0.01; yeast p <
0.05, probiotic > 0.20). CONCLUSIONS: The urinary MMA assay is
effective for identifying early metabolic cobalamin deficiency. People
following the Hallelujah diet and other raw-food vegetarian diets
should regularly monitor their urinary MMA levels, consume a
sublingual cobalamin supplement, or consume cobalamin in their food.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract


"Consequences of a long-term raw food diet on body weight and
menstruation: results of a questionnaire survey."
Koebnick C, Strassner C, Hoffmann I, Leitzmann C.
Annals of Nutrition and Metabolism, 1999; vol. 43, pp. 69-79.

Abstract:
OBJECTIVE: To examine the relationship between the strictness of long-
term raw food diets and body weight loss, underweight and amenorrhea.
METHODS: In a cross-sectional study 216 men and 297 women consuming
long-term raw food diets (3.7 years; SE 0.25) of different intensities
completed a specially developed questionnaire. Participants were
divided into 5 groups according to the amount of raw food in their
diet (70-79, 80-89, 90-94, 95-99 and 100%). A multiple linear
regression model (n = 513) was used to evaluate the relationship
between body weight and the amount of raw food consumed. Odds of
underweight were determined by a multinomial logit model. RESULTS:
From the beginning of the dietary regimen an average weight loss of
9.9 kg (SE 0.4) for men and 12 kg (SE 0.6) for women was observed.
Body mass index (BMI) was below the normal weight range (<18.5 kg/
m(2)) in 14.7% of male and 25.0% of female subjects and was negatively
related to the amount of raw food consumed and the duration of the raw
food diet. About 30% of the women under 45 years of age had partial to
complete amenorrhea; subjects eating high amounts of raw food (>90%)
were affected more frequently than moderate raw food dieters.
CONCLUSIONS: The consumption of a raw food diet is associated with a
high loss of body weight. Since many raw food dieters exhibited
underweight and amenorrhea, a very strict raw food diet cannot be
recommended on a long-term basis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract


"Effect of a strict vegan diet on energy and nutrient intakes by
Finnish rheumatoid patients."
Rauma AL, Nenonen M, Helve T, Hanninen O.
European Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 1993 Oct; vol. 47, pp. 747-9.

Abstract:
Dietary intake data of 43 Finnish rheumatoid arthritis patients were
collected using 7-day food records. The subjects were randomized into
a control and a vegan diet groups, consisting of 22 and 21 subjects,
respectively. The subjects in the vegan diet group received an
uncooked vegan diet ('living food') for 3 months, and they were
tutored daily by a living-food expert. The subjects in the control
group continued their usual diets and received no tutoring. Adherence
to the strict vegan diet was assessed on the basis of urinary sodium
excretion and by the information on consumption of specific food items
(wheatgrass juice and the rejuvelac drink). The use of these drinks
was variable, and some boiled vegetables were consumed occasionally.
However, only one of the subjects in the vegan diet group lacked a
clear decrease in urinary sodium excretion. Rheumatoid patients had
lower than recommended intakes of iron, zinc and niacin, and their
energy intake was low compared to mean daily energy intake of the
healthy Finnish females of the same age. Shifting to the uncooked
vegan diet significantly increased the intakes of energy and many
nutrients. In spite of the increased energy intake, the group on the
vegan diet lost 9% of their body weight during the intervention
period, indicating a low availability of energy from the vegan diet.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8...?dopt=Abstract


"Dental erosions in subjects living on a raw food diet."
Ganss C, Schlechtriemen M, Klimek J.
Caries Research, 1999; vol. 33, pp. 74-80.

Abstract:
The aim of the study was to investigate the frequency and severity of
dental erosions and its association with nutritional and oral hygiene
factors in subjects living on a raw food diet. As part of a larger
dietary study 130 subjects whose ingestion of raw food was more than
95% of the total food intake were examined. The median duration of the
diet was 39 (minimum 17, maximum 418) months. Before the clinical
examination, the participants answered questionnaires and recorded
their food intake during a 7-day period. Dental erosions were
registered using study models. As a control 76 sex- and age-matched
patients from our clinic were randomly selected. The raw food diet
records showed the median daily frequency of ingesting citrus fruit to
be 4.8 (minimum 0.5, maximum 16.1). The median intake of fruit was 62%
(minimum 25%, maximum 96%) of the total, corresponding to an average
consumption of 9.5 kg of fruit (minimum 1.5, maximum 23.7) per week.
Compared to the control group subjects living on a raw food diet had
significantly (p</=0.001) more dental erosions. Only 2.3% of the raw
food group (13.2% of the controls) had no erosive defects, whereas
37.2% had at least one tooth with a moderate erosion (55.2% of the
controls) and 60.5% had at least one tooth with a severe erosion
(31.6% of the controls). Within the raw food group no significant
correlation was found between nutrition or oral health data and the
prevalence of erosions. Nevertheless, the results showed that a raw
food diet bears an increased risk of dental erosion compared to
conventional nutrition.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9...?dopt=Abstract

The real question is not if the articles posted are "real" science. The
better question is do they represent the range of "real" science on the
topic so one can come to an informed conclusion by weighing all the
research.

Too often cherry picked results are chosen by food cults and represented
as "science" while real science makes an explicit and determined point of
not doing so. One can for example find web sites which survey the
research on the question of the health impact of consuming soy. One can
post food cult pages which pick among the research to seem to support
their notions alone. By doing so they come to oppisite conclusions on the
soy question but fail the "real" science test as above.

I think that dietitians agree that any vegan diet should be
accompanied by Vitamin B12 supplements, regardless of whether it is a
"raw food" diet or not. I myself was recently found to have Vitamin
B12 levels below the normal range and my doctor said that that was an
"expected outcome" of following a vegan diet without taking Vitamin
B12 supplements. (I usually take supplements but I was a bit forgetful
about taking them over the last year or so.)

On Aug 5, 1:40*am, Rupert > wrote:
> I think that dietitians agree that any vegan diet should be
> accompanied by Vitamin B12 supplements, regardless of whether it is a
> "raw food" diet or not. I myself was recently found to have Vitamin
> B12 levels below the normal range and my doctor said that that was an
> "expected outcome" of following a vegan diet without taking Vitamin
> B12 supplements. (I usually take supplements but I was a bit forgetful
> about taking them over the last year or so.)

I just wonder how those who claim vegan diet - and especially raw
vegan diet - is the natural diet for humans explain this problem. In
my thinking any diet that is natural for a species should not require
supplements, but all the necessary vitamins and micronutrients should
be available from the diet.

Dragonblaze

On Aug 5, 3:10*pm, Dragonblaze > wrote:
> On Aug 5, 1:40*am, Rupert > wrote:
>
> > I think that dietitians agree that any vegan diet should be
> > accompanied by Vitamin B12 supplements, regardless of whether it is a
> > "raw food" diet or not. I myself was recently found to have Vitamin
> > B12 levels below the normal range and my doctor said that that was an
> > "expected outcome" of following a vegan diet without taking Vitamin
> > B12 supplements. (I usually take supplements but I was a bit forgetful
> > about taking them over the last year or so.)
>
> I just wonder how those who claim vegan diet - and especially raw
> vegan diet - is the natural diet for humans explain this problem.

Well, that's a good question; I wouldn't know, I have no interest in
making such a claim.

> In
> my thinking any diet that is natural for a species should not require
> supplements, but all the necessary vitamins and micronutrients should
> be available from the diet.
>
> Dragonblaze

"Dragonblaze" > wrote in message ...
On Aug 5, 1:40 am, Rupert > wrote:
> I think that dietitians agree that any vegan diet should be
> accompanied by Vitamin B12 supplements, regardless of whether it is a
> "raw food" diet or not. I myself was recently found to have Vitamin
> B12 levels below the normal range and my doctor said that that was an
> "expected outcome" of following a vegan diet without taking Vitamin
> B12 supplements. (I usually take supplements but I was a bit forgetful
> about taking them over the last year or so.)

I just wonder how those who claim vegan diet - and especially raw
vegan diet - is the natural diet for humans explain this problem. In
my thinking any diet that is natural for a species should not require
supplements, but all the necessary vitamins and micronutrients should
be available from the diet.

----

Read this:

The B12-Cobalt Connection
http://www.championtrees.org/topsoil/b12coblt.htm

Note that "livestock" are *supplemented* with cobalt and/or Vit. B12.
(And grass is the natural diet of grazing ruminant herbivores, isn't it.).

Might as well (better to*) take a supplement directly yourself instead.

How conventional industrial agriculture compounds the problem -

'Mineral content: This may be the most important nutritional difference
between organic and regular produce since heavy use of fertilizer inhibits
absorption of some minerals, which are likely to be at lower levels to
begin with in soils that have been abused. This may be caused in part
by the lack of beneficial mycorrhizae fungi on the roots since high levels
of fertilizer tend to kill them. Standard diets tend to be low in various
minerals, resulting in a variety of problems including osteoporosis.
...'
http://math.ucsd.edu/~ebender/Health...s/organic.html

Emphasis added -

'Suzuki1 (1995, Japan) studied 6 vegan children eating a genmai-
saishoku (GS) diet, which is based on high intakes of brown rice
and contains plenty of sea vegetables, including 2-4 g of nori
per day ("dried laver"); as well as hijiki, wakame, and kombu.
*The foods are organically grown and many are high in cobalt*
(buckwheat, adzuki beans, kidney beans, shiitake, hijiki).
Serum B12 levels of the children are shown:

Results of Suzuki.1
age(yrs) years vegan sB12
7.1 4.4 520
7.7 4.4 720
8.6A 8.6 480
8.8A 8.8 300
12.7 10 320
14.6 10 320
average 443 (± 164)
A - Exclusively breast-fed until 6 months old. Mothers had been
vegan for 9.6 and 6.5 yrs prior to conception. Both mothers
consumed 2 g of nori per day.
...'
http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/plant

* 'Are You Vitamin B12 Deficient?

Nearly two-fifths of the U.S. population may be flirting with
marginal vitamin B12 status-that is, if a careful look at nearly 3,000
men and women in the ongoing Framingham (Massachusetts)
Offspring Study is any indication. Researchers found that 39 percent
of the volunteers have plasma B12 levels in the "low normal" range-
below 258 picomoles per liter (pmol/L).

While this is well above the currently accepted deficiency level
of 148 pmol/L, some people exhibit neurological symptoms at the
upper level of the deficiency range, explains study leader Katherine
L. Tucker. She is a nutritional epidemiologist at the Jean Mayer
USDA Human Nutrition Research Center on Aging at Tufts
University in Boston.

"I think there's a lot of undetected vitamin B12 deficiency out there,"
says Tucker. She noted that nearly 9 percent of the study population
fell below the current deficiency level. And more than 16 percent fell
below 185 pmol/L. "Many people may be deficient at this level,"
she says. "There is some question as to what the clinical cutoff for
deficiency should be."

Deficiency can cause a type of anemia marked by fewer but larger
red blood cells. It can also cause walking and balance disturbances,
a loss of vibration sensation, confusion, and, in advanced cases,
dementia. The body requires B12 to make the protective coating
surrounding the nerves. So inadequate B12 can expose nerves to
damage.

Tucker and colleagues wanted to get a sense of B12 levels spanning
the adult population because most previous studies have focused on the
elderly. That age group was thought to be at higher risk for deficiency.
The researchers also expected to find some connection between dietary
intake and plasma levels, even though other studies found no association.
Some of the results were surprising. The youngest group-the 26 to 49
year olds-had about the same B12 status as the oldest group- 65 and up.
"We thought that low concentrations of B12 would increase with age,"
says Tucker. "But we saw a high prevalence of low B12 even among
the youngest group."

The good news is that for many people, eating more fortified cereals
and dairy products can improve B12 status almost as much as taking
supplements containing the vitamin. Supplement use dropped the
percentage of volunteers in the danger zone (plasma B12 below 185
pmol/L) from 20 percent to 8. Eating fortified cereals five or more
times a week or being among the highest third for dairy intake reduced,
by nearly half, the percentage of volunteers in that zone-from 23 and
24 percent, respectively, to 12 and 13 percent.

The researchers found no association between plasma B12 and meat,
poultry, and fish intake, even though these foods supply the bulk of B12
in the diet. "It's not because people aren't eating enough meat," Tucker
says. "The vitamin isn't getting absorbed." The vitamin is tightly bound
to proteins in meat and dairy products and requires high acidity to cut
it loose. As we age, we lose the acid-secreting cells in the stomach. But
what causes poor absorption in younger adults? Tucker speculates that
the high use of antacids may contribute. But why absorption from dairy
products appears to be better than from meats is a question that needs
more research. Fortified cereals are a different story. She says the
vitamin is sprayed on during processing and is "more like what we get
in supplements."

By Judy McBride, Agricultural Research Service Information Staff.
This research is part of Human Nutrition, an ARS National Program
(#107) described on the World Wide Web. Katherine L. Tucker is
at the Jean Mayer USDA-ARS Human Nutrition Research Center on
Aging at Tufts University, 711 Washington St., Boston, MA 02111;
...
"Are You Vitamin B12 Deficient?" was published in the August 2000
issue of Agricultural Research magazine.

http://www.epic4health.com/areyouvitb12.html

A couple more points to ponder here..

"As we age, we lose the acid-secreting cells in the stomach."

Is it therefore natural for your omnivorous human to become
B12-deficient with age?

"high use of antacids"

Is it's natural for humans to suffer from acid-indigestion?

Any idea which "foods" are associated with this condition?

S. asians who came to n. america started showing up at doctors with vit
b12 problems. It was found that legal guidelines covering how many animal
parts were allowed in the plant food supply in s. asia was much greater
then in n. america. The greatly reduced animal parts they consumed in the
plant food supply did not provide the same amount of vit b12 they consumed
from animal parts in their food in s. asia.

Bacteria produce all vit b12 that in the end by way mostly of animal
sources enters the human diet. Because truely pure vegan diets are very
rare most vegitarians who consume milk and/or fish have no problems.
Vegans who reside in n. america and other places with control over animal
parts in plant food supply would best supplement.

> wrote in message ...
> S. asians who came to n. america started showing up at doctors with vit
> b12 problems. It was found that legal guidelines covering how many animal
> parts were allowed in the plant food supply in s. asia was much greater
> then in n. america. The greatly reduced animal parts they consumed in the
> plant food supply did not provide the same amount of vit b12 they consumed
> from animal parts in their food in s. asia.
>
> Bacteria produce all vit b12 that in the end by way mostly of animal
> sources enters the human diet. Because truely pure vegan diets are very
> rare most vegitarians who consume milk and/or fish have no problems.
> Vegans who reside in n. america and other places with control over animal
> parts in plant food supply would best supplement.

B12-producing bacteria are (naturally) abundant in soil, and require the
trace element cobalt to synthesize B12 - not insects or animal systems,
but..

'According to "Trace Elements in Agriculture," the cobalt range for U.S.
soils in 1969 was 30 and 50 ppb - well below the ruminant requirement
and "possibly enough to slow legume growth and turn leaves yellow
prematurely," says Maurice Cook, PhD, professor of Soil Science at
North Carolina State Univ. In Micronutrients in Agriculture, Drs. Kubota
and Allaway state, "Forage grasses and cereal grains frequently lack
required concentrations of cobalt, and ruminant diets based on grasses
or grains require cobalt supplements in most areas of the U.S.
...'
http://www.championtrees.org/topsoil/b12coblt.htm

Which of course applies to cobalt content in plant-foods consumed
by humans, too. Please read the above article and my previous post.

"Rudy Canoza" > wrote in message m...
> pearl wrote:
> > "Dragonblaze" > wrote in message
...
> > On Aug 5, 1:40 am, Rupert > wrote:
> >> I think that dietitians agree that any vegan diet should be
> >> accompanied by Vitamin B12 supplements, regardless of whether it is a
> >> "raw food" diet or not. I myself was recently found to have Vitamin
> >> B12 levels below the normal range and my doctor said that that was an
> >> "expected outcome" of following a vegan diet without taking Vitamin
> >> B12 supplements. (I usually take supplements but I was a bit forgetful
> >> about taking them over the last year or so.)
> >
> > I just wonder how those who claim vegan diet - and especially raw
> > vegan diet - is the natural diet for humans explain this problem. In
> > my thinking any diet that is natural for a species should not require
> > supplements, but all the necessary vitamins and micronutrients should
> > be available from the diet.
> >
> > ----
> >
> > Read this:
> >
> > The B12-Cobalt Connection
> > http://www.championtrees.org/topsoil/b12coblt.htm
> >
> > Note that "livestock" are *supplemented* with cobalt and/or Vit. B12.
> > (And grass is the natural diet of grazing ruminant herbivores, isn't it.).
> >
> > Might as well (better to*) take a supplement directly yourself instead.
>
> Not an answer to his

Her.

> question, stupid cow. If a raw "vegan" diet is the
> so-called "natural" diet for humans - it is *not*, of course - then why
> would you need to take supplements?

Read the "steaming SHIT HEMORRHAGE" you snipped, fool.

> You're ****ed.
>
>
> >
> > [snip steaming SHIT HEMORRHAGE]

> Bacteria produce all vit b12 that in the end by way mostly of animal
> sources enters the human diet. Because truely pure vegan diets are very
> rare most vegitarians who consume milk and/or fish have no problems.
> Vegans who reside in n. america and other places with control over
animal
> parts in plant food supply would best supplement.

B12-producing bacteria are (naturally) abundant in soil, and require the
"trace element cobalt to synthesize B12 - not insects or animal systems,"

Irrelevant, the question is how does it find its way into any human food
source. In the case of the s. asians it was by way of animal parts in
their plant food supply. Here is a bit about food sources of vit b12:

Food sources

Only bacteria can synthesize vitamin B[12]. Vitamin B[12] is present
in animal products such as meat, poultry, fish (including shellfish),
and to a lesser extent milk, but it is not generally present in plant
products or yeast (1). Fresh pasteurized milk contains 0.9 mcg per cup
and is an important source of vitamin B[12] for some vegetarians (6).
Those vegetarians who eat no animal products need supplemental vitamin
B[12] to meet their requirements. Also, individuals over the age of 50
should obtain their vitamin B[12] in supplements or fortified foods
like fortified cereal because of the increased likelihood of
food-bound vitamin B[12] malabsorption.

> wrote in message ...
> > Bacteria produce all vit b12 that in the end by way mostly of animal
> > sources enters the human diet. Because truely pure vegan diets are very
> > rare most vegitarians who consume milk and/or fish have no problems.
> > Vegans who reside in n. america and other places with control over
> animal
> > parts in plant food supply would best supplement.
>
> B12-producing bacteria are (naturally) abundant in soil, and require the
> "trace element cobalt to synthesize B12 - not insects or animal systems,"
>
> Irrelevant, the question is how does it find its way into any human food
> source.

Relevant. 1. On foods (environmental 'contamination'). 2. In foods
(see http://www.css.cornell.edu/courses/1...r/boshart2.htm ), and
3. Synthesized by enteric bacteria resident in the human small intestine
(where Vit. B12 is absorbed). -- Provided there's adequate levels of
cobalt in the soil, and, organic farming methods instead of ag-chem.

Since cobalt levels can be low and the soil saturated with chem's,
it's indeed prudent and recommended we take a B12 supplement.

> In the case of the s. asians it was by way of animal parts in
> their plant food supply.

Show us the research?

> Here is a bit about food sources of vit b12:
>
> Food sources
>
> Only bacteria can synthesize vitamin B[12]. Vitamin B[12] is present
> in animal products such as meat, poultry, fish (including shellfish),
> and to a lesser extent milk, but it is not generally present in plant
> products or yeast (1). Fresh pasteurized milk contains 0.9 mcg per cup
> and is an important source of vitamin B[12] for some vegetarians (6).
> Those vegetarians who eat no animal products need supplemental vitamin
> B[12] to meet their requirements. Also, individuals over the age of 50
> should obtain their vitamin B[12] in supplements or fortified foods
> like fortified cereal because of the increased likelihood of
> food-bound vitamin B[12] malabsorption.

Again, do you think it's natural for humans to become B12-deficient with age?

Why are you ignoring the fact that "livestock" are routinely given B12/cobalt?

"Rudy Canoza" > wrote in message ...
> pearl wrote:
> > "Rudy Canoza" > wrote in message m...
> >> pearl wrote:
> >>> "Dragonblaze" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>> On Aug 5, 1:40 am, Rupert > wrote:
> >>>> I think that dietitians agree that any vegan diet should be
> >>>> accompanied by Vitamin B12 supplements, regardless of whether it is a
> >>>> "raw food" diet or not. I myself was recently found to have Vitamin
> >>>> B12 levels below the normal range and my doctor said that that was an
> >>>> "expected outcome" of following a vegan diet without taking Vitamin
> >>>> B12 supplements. (I usually take supplements but I was a bit forgetful
> >>>> about taking them over the last year or so.)
> >>> I just wonder how those who claim vegan diet - and especially raw
> >>> vegan diet - is the natural diet for humans explain this problem. In
> >>> my thinking any diet that is natural for a species should not require
> >>> supplements, but all the necessary vitamins and micronutrients should
> >>> be available from the diet.
> >>>
> >>> ----
> >>>
> >>> Read this:
> >>>
> >>> The B12-Cobalt Connection
> >>> http://www.championtrees.org/topsoil/b12coblt.htm
> >>>
> >>> Note that "livestock" are *supplemented* with cobalt and/or Vit. B12.
> >>> (And grass is the natural diet of grazing ruminant herbivores, isn't it.).
> >>>
> >>> Might as well (better to*) take a supplement directly yourself instead.
> >> Not an answer to his
> >
> > Her.
>
> Big ****ing deal, foot-rubbing whore.
>
>
> >> question, stupid cow. If a raw "vegan" diet is the
> >> so-called "natural" diet for humans - it is *not*, of course - then why
> >> would you need to take supplements?
> >
> > Read the "steaming SHIT HEMORRHAGE"
>
> It doesn't answer the question, foot-rubbing whore. *WHY* would
> "supplements" be necessary if a "raw 'vegan'" diet is the "natural" diet
> for humans?
>
> You can't answer. You're ****ed.

You're an idiot.

> Irrelevant, the question is how does it find its way into any human food
> source.

"Relevant. 1. On foods (environmental 'contamination'). 2. In foods
(see http://www.css.cornell.edu/courses/1...r/boshart2.htm ), and
3. Synthesized by enteric bacteria resident in the human small intestine
(where Vit. B12 is absorbed). -- Provided there's adequate levels of
cobalt in the soil, and, organic farming methods instead of ag-chem."


Since cobalt levels can be low and the soil saturated with chem's,
it's indeed prudent and recommended we take a B12 supplement.

If some soil is by accident still on those parts which come into contact
with plants it is a very tiny amount. Normal preparation of washing and
it is gone. We do not eat soil. The link shows the real source of the
vit b12, manure from animalse. The amount that could be produced in the
human gut is far from sufficient because of the level of b12 bacteria
there.

So if we aren't eating soil and it isn't in plants and only then and if
present onlyy as an indirect by product of animals and the human gut
doesn't produce enough, what is the major source in the human diet and
where does the bacteria live that produces it? read on:

Vitamin B-12 is naturally found in meat (especially liver and
shellfish), milk and eggs. Animals, in turn, must obtain it directly
or indirectly from bacteria, and these bacteria may inhabit a section
of the gut which is posterior to the section where B-12 is absorbed.
Thus, herbivorous animals must either obtain B-12 from bacteria in
their rumens, or (if fermenting plant material in the hindgut) by
reingestion of cecotrope fæces. Eggs are often mentioned as a good
B-12 source, but they also contain a factor that blocks
absorption.[23] Certain insects such as termites contain B-12 produced
by their gut bacteria, in a manner analogous to ruminant animals.[24]
An NIH Fact Sheet lists a variety of food sources of vitamin B-12.

Plants only supply B-12 to humans when the soil containing
B-12-producing microorganisms has not been washed from them. For
example, mushrooms are typically high in B-12 [25], but they are often
grown in soil containing high amounts of manure and bacteria, and
there is a serious question as to whether B-12 may be made by
mushrooms themselves [26], and how much of it would be present after
careful washing [27]. Vegan humans who eat only carefully washed
vegetables must ordinarily take special care to supplement their diets
accordingly. According to the U.K. Vegan Society, the only reliable
vegan sources of B-12 are foods fortified with B-12 (including some
plant milks, some soy products and some breakfast cereals), and B-12
supplements.[28]

While lacto-ovo vegetarians usually get enough B-12 through consuming
dairy products, vitamin B-12 may be found to be lacking in those
practicing vegan diets who do not use multivitamin supplements or eat
B-12 fortified foods. Examples of fortified foods often consumed
include fortified breakfast cereals, fortified soy-based products, and
fortified energy bars. Claimed sources of B-12 that have been shown
through direct studies[29] of vegans to be inadequate or unreliable
include, laver (a seaweed), barley grass, and human gut bacteria.
People on a vegan raw food diet are also susceptible to B-12
deficiency if no supplementation is used^[30].

> wrote in message ...
> > Irrelevant, the question is how does it find its way into any human food
> > source.
>
> "Relevant. 1. On foods (environmental 'contamination'). 2. In foods
> (see http://www.css.cornell.edu/courses/1...r/boshart2.htm ), and
> 3. Synthesized by enteric bacteria resident in the human small intestine
> (where Vit. B12 is absorbed). -- Provided there's adequate levels of
> cobalt in the soil, and, organic farming methods instead of ag-chem."
>
>
> Since cobalt levels can be low and the soil saturated with chem's,
> it's indeed prudent and recommended we take a B12 supplement.
>
> If some soil is by accident still on those parts which come into contact
> with plants it is a very tiny amount. Normal preparation of washing and
> it is gone. We do not eat soil.

Remember that the context is natural diet. No wild species "carefully
washes" its food. Bacteria and B12 would be virtually everywhere -
in soil, on hands and food - living naturally in healthy natural habitat.

> The link shows the real source of the
> vit b12, manure from animalse.

The same bacteria are abundant in healthy soil. In natural ecosystems
animal (wildlife) manure would also contribute to environmental B12.
No need for domesticated animals (..supplemented with cobalt/B12).

> The amount that could be produced in the
> human gut is far from sufficient because of the level of b12 bacteria
> there.

'Nature. 1980 Feb 21;283(5749):781-2.
Vitamin B12 synthesis by human small intestinal bacteria.
Albert MJ, Mathan VI, Baker SJ.
In man, physiological amounts of vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin) are
absorbed by the intrinsic factor mediated mechanism exclusively in
the ileum. Human faeces contain appreciable quantities of vitamin B12
or vitamin B12-like material presumably produced by bacteria in the
colon, but this is unavailable to the non-coprophagic individual.
However, the human small intestine also often harbours a considerable
microflora and this is even more extensive in apparently healthy
southern Indian subjects. We now show that at least two groups of
organisms in the small bowel, Pseudomonas and Klebsiella sp., may
synthesise significant amounts of the vitamin.
PMID: 7354869 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7354869

> So if we aren't eating soil and it isn't in plants and only then and if
> present onlyy as an indirect by product of animals and the human gut
> doesn't produce enough,

See above.

> what is the major source in the human diet and
> where does the bacteria live that produces it? read on:
>
> Vitamin B-12 is naturally found in meat (especially liver and
> shellfish), milk and eggs. Animals, in turn, must obtain it directly
> or indirectly from bacteria, and these bacteria may inhabit a section
> of the gut which is posterior to the section where B-12 is absorbed.
> Thus, herbivorous animals must either obtain B-12 from bacteria in
> their rumens, or (if fermenting plant material in the hindgut) by
> reingestion of cecotrope fæces. Eggs are often mentioned as a good
> B-12 source, but they also contain a factor that blocks
> absorption.[23] Certain insects such as termites contain B-12 produced
> by their gut bacteria, in a manner analogous to ruminant animals.[24]
> An NIH Fact Sheet lists a variety of food sources of vitamin B-12.
>
> Plants only supply B-12 to humans when the soil containing
> B-12-producing microorganisms has not been washed from them. For
> example, mushrooms are typically high in B-12 [25], but they are often
> grown in soil containing high amounts of manure and bacteria, and
> there is a serious question as to whether B-12 may be made by
> mushrooms themselves [26], and how much of it would be present after
> careful washing [27]. Vegan humans who eat only carefully washed
> vegetables must ordinarily take special care to supplement their diets
> accordingly. According to the U.K. Vegan Society, the only reliable
> vegan sources of B-12 are foods fortified with B-12 (including some
> plant milks, some soy products and some breakfast cereals), and B-12
> supplements.[28]
>
> While lacto-ovo vegetarians usually get enough B-12 through consuming
> dairy products, vitamin B-12 may be found to be lacking in those
> practicing vegan diets who do not use multivitamin supplements or eat
> B-12 fortified foods. Examples of fortified foods often consumed
> include fortified breakfast cereals, fortified soy-based products, and
> fortified energy bars. Claimed sources of B-12 that have been shown
> through direct studies[29] of vegans to be inadequate or unreliable
> include, laver (a seaweed), barley grass, and human gut bacteria.
> People on a vegan raw food diet are also susceptible to B-12
> deficiency if no supplementation is used^[30].

I see no mention of the all-important cobalt or farming methods...

> The link shows the real source of the
> vit b12, manure from animalse.

"The same bacteria are abundant in healthy soil. In natural ecosystems
animal (wildlife) manure would also contribute to environmental B12. No
need for domesticated animals (..supplemented with cobalt/B12)."

> The amount that could be produced in the
> human gut is far from sufficient because of the level of b12 bacteria
> there.

"In man, physiological amounts of vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin) are
absorbed by the intrinsic factor mediated mechanism exclusively in
the ileum. Human faeces contain appreciable quantities of vitamin B12
or vitamin B12-like material presumably produced by bacteria in the
colon, but this is unavailable to the non-coprophagic individual.
However, the human small intestine also often harbours a considerable
microflora and this is even more extensive in apparently healthy
southern Indian subjects. We now show that at least two groups of
organisms in the small bowel, Pseudomonas and Klebsiella sp., may
synthesise significant amounts of the vitamin."

Here is the core of the reality. There is a cycle involving the gut of
animals where bacteria produce vit b12 as a waste product. It is also in
animal feces and finally into soil and then can repeat when foraging
animals feed.

The question is where humans tap into this cycle. We don't eat soil nor
animal feces except in tiny amounts after cleaning plant foods. The south
indian traditionally lives close to the soil as farmers and live cheek by
jowl with cow manure as fertilizer and fuel and building material. Still
they have high levels of the disroders resulting from low vit b12. If
they use milk there is some there.

The bottom line is that plants do not have vit b12 and in some fashion
humans must tap into the cycle above. The vast majority except for a tiny
minority suchas the jains eat some animal products either directly or
indirectly.

Human gut bacteria does not produce enough vit b12 to satisfy needs, if it
were otherwise there would be no problems in south indians. As the above
says, a great deal is flushed from the gut as feces. Humans most often
get it from animal products because it is concentrated there in a form
most easily absorbed unlike that small to begin with amount in the human
gut that is not so easily absorbed.

> wrote in message ...
> > The link shows the real source of the
> > vit b12, manure from animalse.
>
> "The same bacteria are abundant in healthy soil. In natural ecosystems
> animal (wildlife) manure would also contribute to environmental B12. No
> need for domesticated animals (..supplemented with cobalt/B12)."
>
> > The amount that could be produced in the
> > human gut is far from sufficient because of the level of b12 bacteria
> > there.
>
> "In man, physiological amounts of vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin) are
> absorbed by the intrinsic factor mediated mechanism exclusively in
> the ileum. Human faeces contain appreciable quantities of vitamin B12
> or vitamin B12-like material presumably produced by bacteria in the
> colon, but this is unavailable to the non-coprophagic individual.
> However, the human small intestine also often harbours a considerable
> microflora and this is even more extensive in apparently healthy
> southern Indian subjects. We now show that at least two groups of
> organisms in the small bowel, Pseudomonas and Klebsiella sp., may
> synthesise significant amounts of the vitamin."
>
> Here is the core of the reality. There is a cycle involving the gut of
> animals where bacteria produce vit b12 as a waste product.

Including humans.

> It is also in
> animal feces and finally into soil and then can repeat when foraging
> animals feed.

B12? If that's the case, then why not also by foraging humans?

> The question is where humans tap into this cycle. We don't eat soil nor
> animal feces except in tiny amounts

How is that any different to other foraging animals?

> after cleaning plant foods.

Did/do foraging humans carefully wash food?

> The south
> indian traditionally lives close to the soil as farmers and live cheek by
> jowl with cow manure as fertilizer and fuel and building material. Still
> they have high levels of the disroders resulting from low vit b12. If
> they use milk there is some there.

Indians consume plenty of milk. Very few are vegan, but, on the other
hand, many are still under-nourished - particularly women and children.
( see: http://www.ifpri.org/media/BeijingPlus10/briefIndia.pdf )

> The bottom line is that plants do not have vit b12

Mozafar's study indicates that plants can take up B12 from soil.

> and in some fashion
> humans must tap into the cycle above. The vast majority except for a tiny
> minority suchas the jains eat some animal products either directly or
> indirectly.

Then according to your reasoning there shouldn't be "high levels
of the disroders resulting from low vit b12.", as you've claimed.

> Human gut bacteria does not produce enough vit b12 to satisfy needs,

'Suzuki1 (1995, Japan) studied 6 vegan children eating a genmai-
saishoku (GS) diet, which is based on high intakes of brown rice
and contains plenty of sea vegetables, including 2-4 g of nori
per day ("dried laver"); as well as hijiki, wakame, and kombu.
*The foods are organically grown and many are high in cobalt*
(buckwheat, adzuki beans, kidney beans, shiitake, hijiki).
Serum B12 levels of the children are shown:

Results of Suzuki.1
age(yrs) years vegan sB12
7.1 4.4 520
7.7 4.4 720
8.6A 8.6 480
8.8A 8.8 300
12.7 10 320
14.6 10 320
average 443 (± 164)
A - Exclusively breast-fed until 6 months old. Mothers had been
vegan for 9.6 and 6.5 yrs prior to conception. Both mothers
consumed 2 g of nori per day.
...'
http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/plant

> if it
> were otherwise there would be no problems in south indians.

Who in any case consume dairy...

> As the above
> says, a great deal is flushed from the gut as feces. Humans most often
> get it from animal products because it is concentrated there in a form
> most easily absorbed unlike that small to begin with amount in the human
> gut that is not so easily absorbed.

Vit. B12 tightly bound to protein - requiring high acidity to cut it loose,
is more easily absorbed than free B12 produced in the small intestine?

That's nonsense.

The cycle for vit b12 is bacteria producing it as a waste product in a
foraging animal large gut to feces to soil and then return with feeding.
Because some foraging animals pass quantities of vit b12 as feces from the
large gut, they also eat feces so as to absorb it in the small gut.

That is the coreality of the situation. Plants do not provide vit b12 as
is the simple reality of the situation. Plants do not produce vit b12 as
a part of its metabolism.

The only question is where humans tap into that cycle. We do not as a
routine eat soil or feces. All humans directly or indrectly get it from
animals. Those who by cultural choice or poverty wo eat mostly or all
plant foods must supplement vit b12 by one means or another as a plant
alone diet removes themselves more from the cycle.

All the minor quibbling I have thus seen on this thread doesn't detract
from the above in any way. In fact it is so unremarkable as to make one
wonder that the quibblers do so for entertainment absent some great
principle of nutrition they wish to defend.

On Aug 6, 2:51 pm, wrote:

> Those who by cultural choice or poverty wo eat mostly or all
> plant foods (most people)
> must supplement vit b12 by one means or another

Those who eat plant diets for nutrition, as opposed to "cultural
choice or poverty" may also need to supplement B12.

You can consume raw/dirty meat or partially processed meat or raw,
dirty plants or breast milk to naturally obtain B12 or just take a
pill.

Chris

> Those who by cultural choice or poverty wo eat mostly or all
> plant foods (most people)
> must supplement vit b12 by one means or another

Right you are, about 1/3 of the world have no choice because poverty
allows only a mostly plant food diet.

"Those who eat plant diets for nutrition, as opposed to "cultural choice
or poverty" may also need to supplement B12."

Food choices for "nutrition" are cultural choices, as are those for any
number of other reasons of choice as opposed to restriction because of
poverty. Indeed those who by cultural motivation choose to eat mainly a
plant based diet do require some attention to vit b12.

"You can consume raw/dirty meat or partially processed meat or raw, dirty
plants or breast milk to naturally obtain B12 or just take a pill."

Correct, but incomplete. One can also consume soil and feces. There are
some human groups whose principle vit b12 source is feces but they do not
know it. Others consume animal parts and feces in their mostly plant
based diet without knowing it also.

Clean cooked animal sources and insects should be added to be even more
complete. In many parts of the world insects are eaten routinely, in
addition to the vit b12 being produced by the bacteria in their gut they
have a very high level of quality protein humans can absorb easily.

crisology wrote:
> On Aug 6, 2:51 pm, wrote:
>
>> Those who by cultural choice or poverty wo eat mostly or all
>> plant foods (most people)
>> must supplement vit b12 by one means or another
>
> Those who eat plant diets for nutrition, as opposed to "cultural
> choice or poverty" may also need to supplement B12.

Many people eat meat and dairy because for them those
foods provide satisfaction and superior health
support. In fact after 18 years as a vegetarian and no
longer thriving on that diet, I had to overcome
considerable conditioning in order to persuade myself
to put some meat and dairy back into my diet.

> You can consume raw/dirty meat or partially processed meat or raw,
> dirty plants or breast milk to naturally obtain B12 or just take a
> pill.

A little fully cooked meat and/or pasteurized milk
provide all the B12 one requires.

> wrote in message ...
> The cycle for vit b12 is bacteria producing it as a waste product in a
> foraging animal large gut to feces to soil and then return with feeding.
> Because some foraging animals pass quantities of vit b12 as feces from the
> large gut, they also eat feces so as to absorb it in the small gut.

But then B12-producing bacteria would be present in the small gut.

"Livestock" aren't given feces or gut bacteria to remedy or prevent
B12 deficiency - they're routinely given cobalt and/or B12 directly.

Consider that pristine ecosystems are naturally teeming with wildlife
- excreting everywhere, and thus B12-producing bacteria and B12..

> That is the coreality of the situation. Plants do not provide vit b12 as
> is the simple reality of the situation. Plants do not produce vit b12 as
> a part of its metabolism.

'Solving a mystery that has puzzled scientists for decades, MIT and
Harvard researchers have discovered the final piece of the synthesis
pathway of vitamin B12--the only vitamin synthesized exclusively by
microorganisms.

B12, the most chemically complex of all vitamins, is essential for human
health. Four Nobel Prizes have been awarded for research related to B12,
but one fragment of the molecule remained an enigma--until now.

The researchers report that a single enzyme synthesizes the fragment,
and they outline a novel reaction mechanism that requires cannibalization
of another vitamin.

The work, which has roots in an MIT undergraduate teaching laboratory,
"completes a piece of our understanding of a process very fundamental
to life," said Graham Walker, MIT professor of biology and senior
author of a paper on the work that will appear in the March 22 online
edition of Nature.

Vitamin B12 is produced by soil microbes that live in symbiotic
relationships with plant roots. During the 1980s, an undergraduate research
course taught by Walker resulted in a novel method for identifying mutant
strains of a soil microbe that could not form a symbiotic relationship with
a plant.

Walker's team has now found that one such mutant has a defective form
of an enzyme known as BluB that leaves it unable to synthesize B12.

BluB catalyzes the formation of the B12 fragment known as DMB, which
joins with another fragment, produced by a separate pathway, to form the
vitamin.
...
Still to be explored is the question of why soil bacteria synthesize B12 at
all, Walker said. Soil microorganisms don't require B12 to survive, and
the plants they attach themselves to don't need it either, so he speculates
that synthesizing B12 may enable the bacteria to withstand "challenges"
made by the plants during the formation of the symbiotic relationship.

More than 30 genes are involved in vitamin B12 synthesis, and "that's a
lot to carry around if you don't need to make it," Walker said.
...'
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2007/b12.html

Mozafar's study shows that plants can take up B12 from the soil..

In addition, humans would naturally be foraging in and at soil-level..

> The cycle for vit b12 is bacteria producing it as a waste product in a
> foraging animal large gut to feces to soil and then return with feeding.
> Because some foraging animals pass quantities of vit b12 as feces from
the
> large gut, they also eat feces so as to absorb it in the small gut.

"But then B12-producing bacteria would be present in the small gut."

Maybe, it might have been destroyed in stomach digestion, it is an
interesting question but not relevant to the point that foraging animals
are a core player in vit b12 cycle.

""Livestock" aren't given feces or gut bacteria to remedy or prevent B12
deficiency - they're routinely given cobalt and/or B12 directly."

Who said anything about livestock, the few domesticated animals are but a
footnote in all this.

"Consider that pristine ecosystems are naturally teeming with wildlife -
excreting everywhere, and thus B12-producing bacteria and B12.."

Indeed, and the point other then restating the animal to feces to soil to
animal cycle?

> That is the coreality of the situation. Plants do not provide vit b12
as
> is the simple reality of the situation. Plants do not produce vit b12
as
> a part of its metabolism.

'Solving a mystery that has puzzled scientists for decades, MIT and
"Harvard researchers have discovered the final piece of the synthesis
pathway of vitamin B12--the only vitamin synthesized exclusively by
microorganisms."

Not relevant to why plants are not a source of vit b12, just a statement
of what relationship the bacteria which produce it has with plants.

The only question of interest to me is where in the cycle do humans tap
into the cycle as they make dietary choices or respond to those they can
make given various restrictions. Humans must get it from consuming
something, and plants are not among those choices in any viable form in
and of themselves.

> wrote in message ...
> > The cycle for vit b12 is bacteria producing it as a waste product in a
> > foraging animal large gut to feces to soil and then return with feeding.
> > Because some foraging animals pass quantities of vit b12 as feces from
> > the large gut, they also eat feces so as to absorb it in the small gut.
>
> "But then B12-producing bacteria would be present in the small gut."
>
> Maybe, it might have been destroyed in stomach digestion,

How do you suppose the gut is populated with bacteria in the first place?

> it is an
> interesting question but not relevant to the point that foraging animals
> are a core player in vit b12 cycle.

You seem to be forgetting that naturally humans are foraging animals.

> ""Livestock" aren't given feces or gut bacteria to remedy or prevent B12
> deficiency - they're routinely given cobalt and/or B12 directly."
>
> Who said anything about livestock, the few domesticated animals are but a
> footnote in all this.

They're animals, aren't they - your source of B12 and manure. ("few"?)

> "Consider that pristine ecosystems are naturally teeming with wildlife -
> excreting everywhere, and thus B12-producing bacteria and B12.."
>
> Indeed, and the point other then restating the animal to feces to soil to
> animal cycle?

Obviously, that foraging humans also participate in this "cycle".

> > That is the coreality of the situation. Plants do not provide vit b12 as
> > is the simple reality of the situation. Plants do not produce vit b12 as
> > a part of its metabolism.
>
> 'Solving a mystery that has puzzled scientists for decades, MIT and
> "Harvard researchers have discovered the final piece of the synthesis
> pathway of vitamin B12--the only vitamin synthesized exclusively by
> microorganisms."
>
> Not relevant to why plants are not a source of vit b12, just a statement
> of what relationship the bacteria which produce it has with plants.

Research has shown that plants can take up B12 from soil. Again?

> The only question of interest to me is where in the cycle do humans tap
> into the cycle as they make dietary choices or respond to those they can
> make given various restrictions. Humans must get it from consuming
> something, and plants are not among those choices in any viable form in
> and of themselves.

We can get it from our cobalt-replete organic gardens, or supplements.

> > The cycle for vit b12 is bacteria producing it as a waste product in a
> > foraging animal large gut to feces to soil and then return with
feeding.
> > Because some foraging animals pass quantities of vit b12 as feces from
> > the large gut, they also eat feces so as to absorb it in the small
gut.
>
> "But then B12-producing bacteria would be present in the small gut."
>
> Maybe, it might have been destroyed in stomach digestion,

"How do you suppose the gut is populated with bacteria in the first
place?"

By consuming it, but it does not ordinarly continue in the small gut.
The large t=gut is the place the bacteria of interest resides. The
animals eat their feces not for the bacteria it contains but for the vit
b12 that bacteria produced when in their large gut. Because it was
excreated it is eaten to be absorbed in the small gut.

> it is an
> interesting question but not relevant to the point that foraging animals
> are a core player in vit b12 cycle.

"You seem to be forgetting that naturally humans are foraging animals."

Not at all, at least one human group get vit b12 in part from eating their
own feces by using it as fertilizer.

> ""Livestock" aren't given feces or gut bacteria to remedy or prevent B12
> deficiency - they're routinely given cobalt and/or B12 directly."
>
> Who said anything about livestock, the few domesticated animals are but
a
> footnote in all this.

"They're animals, aren't they - your source of B12 and manure. ("few"?) "

Yup, but not a very interesting quibble is it?
> "Consider that pristine ecosystems are naturally teeming with wildlife -
> excreting everywhere, and thus B12-producing bacteria and B12.." > >
Indeed, and the point other then restating the animal to feces to soil to
> animal cycle?"



"Obviously, that foraging humans also participate in this "cycle"."

Yup, another not so very interesting quibble that I have mentioned
previously, where do humans tap into the cycle.

> > That is the coreality of the situation. Plants do not provide vit b12
as
> > is the simple reality of the situation. Plants do not produce vit b12
as
> > a part of its metabolism.
>
> 'Solving a mystery that has puzzled scientists for decades, MIT and
> "Harvard researchers have discovered the final piece of the synthesis
> pathway of vitamin B12--the only vitamin synthesized exclusively by
> microorganisms."
>
> Not relevant to why plants are not a source of vit b12, just a statement
> of what relationship the bacteria which produce it has with plants.

"Research has shown that plants can take up B12 from soil. Again? " "

Yup, ditto quibble. But it does not do so in a manner that plants are a
reliable source anywhere near what is required.

> Theonly question of interest to me is where in the cycle do humans tap
> into the cycle as they make dietary choices or respond to those they can
> make given various restrictions. Humans must get it from consuming
> something, and plants are not among those choices in any viable form in
> and of themselves.

"We can get it from our cobalt-replete organic gardens, or supplements."

Most likely not. As discussed before the south indian example where cow
manure as common in all parts of the human environment on a daily basis
including as fertilizer abudundant in vit b12 bacteria, they still have
low vit b12 problems.

As to supplementing, yes. One can get it at the drug store, one can eat
soil, one can eat feces, or one can eat directly or indirectly animal
products.

Sadly, eating plants is not such a viable source regardless of soil as the
south indian example shows.

Are we finished with this quibble fest? It is hard to know what your
point is and to what end? The facts of the situation are well known and
unremarkable in most regards and hardly worthy of mention.

> wrote in message ...
> > > The cycle for vit b12 is bacteria producing it as a waste product in a
> > > foraging animal large gut to feces to soil and then return with feeding.
> > > Because some foraging animals pass quantities of vit b12 as feces from
> > > the large gut, they also eat feces so as to absorb it in the small gut.
> >
> > "But then B12-producing bacteria would be present in the small gut."
> >
> > Maybe, it might have been destroyed in stomach digestion,
>
> "How do you suppose the gut is populated with bacteria in the first
> place?"
>
> By consuming it, but it does not ordinarly continue in the small gut.
> The large t=gut is the place the bacteria of interest resides.

We've all seen the evidence that B12-producing enteric bacteria
colonize the small intestine, hari, so stating otherwise is idiotic.

> The
> animals eat their feces not for the bacteria it contains but for the vit
> b12 that bacteria produced when in their large gut. Because it was
> excreated it is eaten to be absorbed in the small gut.

Which animals eat their own feces?

> > it is an
> > interesting question but not relevant to the point that foraging animals
> > are a core player in vit b12 cycle.
>
> "You seem to be forgetting that naturally humans are foraging animals."
>
> Not at all, at least one human group get vit b12 in part from eating their
> own feces by using it as fertilizer.

Excrement is rapidly broken down and incorporated into soil, so it's
incorrect to say that those humans were eating their own feces. It is
however probable that the soil was rich in B12-producing bacteria.

> > ""Livestock" aren't given feces or gut bacteria to remedy or prevent B12
> > deficiency - they're routinely given cobalt and/or B12 directly."
> >
> > Who said anything about livestock, the few domesticated animals are but
> a
> > footnote in all this.
>
> "They're animals, aren't they - your source of B12 and manure. ("few"?) "
>
> Yup, but not a very interesting quibble is it?

It highlights a reason why B12 deficiency occurs. Hardly a "quibble".

> > "Consider that pristine ecosystems are naturally teeming with wildlife -
> > excreting everywhere, and thus B12-producing bacteria and B12.."
> >
> Indeed, and the point other then restating the animal to feces to soil to
> > animal cycle?
>
> "Obviously, that foraging humans also participate in this "cycle"."
>
> Yup, another not so very interesting quibble that I have mentioned
> previously, where do humans tap into the cycle.

Where all other foraging animals "tap into the cycle" - eating food.

> > > That is the coreality of the situation. Plants do not provide vit b12 as
> > > is the simple reality of the situation. Plants do not produce vit b12 as
> > > a part of its metabolism.
> >
> > 'Solving a mystery that has puzzled scientists for decades, MIT and
> > "Harvard researchers have discovered the final piece of the synthesis
> > pathway of vitamin B12--the only vitamin synthesized exclusively by
> > microorganisms."
> >
> > Not relevant to why plants are not a source of vit b12, just a statement
> > of what relationship the bacteria which produce it has with plants.
>
> "Research has shown that plants can take up B12 from soil. Again? " "
>
> Yup, ditto quibble. But it does not do so in a manner that plants are a
> reliable source anywhere near what is required.

The reason that plants aren't a reliable source is because of widespread
soil cobalt deficiency, ag-chem agribusiness exaceberating the problem.

This has been explained, but true to form, hari, you ignore all evidence.

> > Theonly question of interest to me is where in the cycle do humans tap
> > into the cycle as they make dietary choices or respond to those they can
> > make given various restrictions. Humans must get it from consuming
> > something, and plants are not among those choices in any viable form in
> > and of themselves.
>
> "We can get it from our cobalt-replete organic gardens, or supplements."
>
> Most likely not.

You've seen one study of vegans eating organic foods high in cobalt.

> As discussed before the south indian example where cow
> manure as common in all parts of the human environment on a daily basis
> including as fertilizer abudundant in vit b12 bacteria, they still have
> low vit b12 problems.

Show us research. You never addressed the rampant under-nutrition.

> As to supplementing, yes. One can get it at the drug store, one can eat
> soil, one can eat feces, or one can eat directly or indirectly animal
> products.
>
> Sadly, eating plants is not such a viable source regardless of soil as the
> south indian example shows.

The South Indians who consume milk? That's some "example".

> Are we finished with this quibble fest? It is hard to know what your
> point is and to what end? The facts of the situation are well known and
> unremarkable in most regards and hardly worthy of mention.

The "quibble fest" will end when I stop replying to your endless
merry-go-round of re-re-re-stating what you want to think is true
in the face of evidence showing that well-known "facts" are false,
as you're one of those people who have to have the "last word"!

> Are we finished with this quibble fest? It is hard to know what your
> point is and to what end? The facts of the situation are well known and
> unremarkable in most regards and hardly worthy of mention.

"The "quibble fest" will end when I stop replying to your endless
merry-go-round of re-re-re-stating what you want to think is true in the
face of evidence showing that well-known "facts" are false, as you're one
of those people who have to have the "last word"!"

Such as yourself, smile? Go in peace least you become dizzy.

On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 20:54:53 +0200 (CEST), wrote:

>> Are we finished with this quibble fest? It is hard to know what your
>> point is and to what end? The facts of the situation are well known and
>> unremarkable in most regards and hardly worthy of mention.
>
>"The "quibble fest" will end when I stop replying to your endless
>merry-go-round of re-re-re-stating what you want to think is true in the
>face of evidence showing that well-known "facts" are false, as you're one
>of those people who have to have the "last word"!"
>
>Such as yourself, smile? Go in peace least you become dizzy.

"Pear's" "reality" is a dizzy place, taking on characteristics she
invents herself and apply when it suits her. For example: She has
no problem believing that frogs exist in the millions in rice fields
everywhere in the world *except* in Texas. Why does she claim
to believe they don't exist in Texas, when she believes they do
everywhere else that rice is grown? Because a Texas rice farmer
explained that they do, so for some reason she jumped to the
conclusion that must be the only place where they do not.
Stupid? It certainly appears to be, and it gets even more so.
She not only denies their existence (in TX only), but she has
also gone on to explain how she thinks these frogs she claims
don't exist in TX rice fields are able to survive when the fields
are drained, and then harvested. She claims the supposedly
non-existent frogs survive the draining and harvest by migrating.
How much more screwed up can a person get?

(...well, she also believes the Earth is hollow, advanced aliens
inhabit the center of it, and that they fly in and out in space
craft through holes in the North and South poles...)

On Aug 9, 10:22 am, wrote:

> The only question of interest to me is where in the cycle do humans tap
> into the cycle as they make dietary choices or respond to those they can
> make given various restrictions.

Like when humans travel to the frigid poles of the earth or food
irradiation "restrictions?"
Fascinating...

On Aug 9, 8:09 am, "pearl" > wrote:

> More than 30 genes are involved in vitamin B12 synthesis, and "that's a
> lot to carry around if you don't need to make it," Walker said.
> ..'http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2007/b12.html
>
> Mozafar's study shows that plants can take up B12 from the soil..
>
> In addition, humans would naturally be foraging in and at soil-level..

As a comparison of how adaptation works efficiently (not wastefully),
$B!H(BHumans have no enzymatic capability to manufacture vitamin C. The
cause of this phenomenon is that the last enzyme in the synthesis
process, L-gulonolactone oxidase, cannot be made by the listed animals
because the gene for this enzyme, Pseudogene $B&7(BGULO, is defective.[24]
The mutation has not been lethal because vitamin C is abundant in
their food sources$B!I(B http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C

$B!H(BFour gene products are necessary to manufacture vitamin C from
glucose. The loss of activity of the gene for the last step,
Pseudogene $B&7(BGULO (GLO) the terminal enzyme responsible for manufacture
of vitamin C, has occurred separately in the history of several
species.

Loss of GLO activity in the primate order supposedly occurred about 63
million years ago, at about the time it split into the suborders
haplorrhini (which lost the enzyme activity) and the more primitive
strepsirrhini (which retained it)$B!I(B

Humans can live about 60 days without Vitamin C but live up to 1-20
years or more without B12 deficiency symptoms. Eventually humans could
potentially die from B12 deficiency too.

Humans do synthesize and absorb trace amounts of B12..

Fermentation in frugivorous H. Sapiens- "B vitamins also are
synthesized by hindgut bacteria, but the extent to which they are
absorbed from the hindgut is unclear. Wrong et al. concluded that
there was good evidence that nicotinic acid, riboflavin, pantothenic
acid, thiamin, biotin, pyridoxine, folic acid, and vitamin B12 are
synthesized by microbes in the human colon, and all but the first
three were absorbed to some degree."-Physiol. Rev. 78: 393-427,1998

and can store/recycle it better than Vitamin C..

$B!H(BThe biological halflife for vitamin C is fairly short, about 30
minutes in blood plasma, a fact which high dose advocates say that
mainstream researchers have failed to take into account. Researchers
at the National Institutes of Health decided upon the current RDA
based upon tests conducted 12 hours (24 half lives) after consumption.
Mainstream medicine remains skeptical of these claims.$B!I(B
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C

Humans require so little B12

$B!H(BThe official recommended daily intakes are 1 $B&L(Bg in Canada and 2 $B&L(Bg in
the United States . Again, these figures have large safety margins
built in.$B!I(B And some people have proven to require far less.

But humans require much more Vitamin C.(2g or more/day) and debate
continues about whether humans may benefit from much higher levels.

Obviously there is no shortage of the universal bacteria B12 in a
natural environment$B!D(B

$B!H(BDeficiency diseases have not been identified for any wild primate
population (Kerr 1972, Wolf 1972). Known cases of nutritional diseases
among primates are laboratory-induced features of captive animals or
culturally induced human diseases. Laboratory studies probably cannot
establish evidence for the evolutionary basis of dietary needs.
BioScience, Volume 28, Pages 761-766, 1978 $B!H(B

And there is no pressure to obtain more B12 in natural environments. I
found no documented cases of any B12 deficiency for any wild animal.
Can you elaborate on the "restrictions" you're seeking in a natural
habitat/diet?

While swatting flies & brushing off cobwebs on my strawberry guavas in
the yard (the morning after a heavy rain), it occurred to me that
there is no shortage of B12, air, Vitamin C or protein. A recent diet
of supplemented meat <~1 million yrs, didn$B!G(Bt change 63 million yr
dependency upon dirty fruit/trace B12 dependency & the lack of reason
to adapt any wasteful practices to over clean/cook/process/douse with
pesticides the natural food. There is no evidence hominoidea require
more B12 after recent meat supplemented diet resulting from climate
changes. There is no B12 issue.. While it is interesting to muse over
the cycle of the complex universal B12 cycle, It$B!G(Bs all academic.
Humans didn$B!G(Bt develop any greater dependency upon B12 just because
they supplemented diet w/meat during the ice age.

With fruit,
Chris
> Who said anything about livestock, the few domesticated animals are but a
> footnote in all this.
>
> "Consider that pristine ecosystems are naturally teeming with wildlife -
> excreting everywhere, and thus B12-producing bacteria and B12.."
>
> Indeed, and the point other then restating the animal to feces to soil to
> animal cycle?
>
>
>
> > That is the coreality of the situation. Plants do not provide vit b12
> as
> > is the simple reality of the situation. Plants do not produce vit b12
> as
> > a part of its metabolism.
>
> 'Solving a mystery that has puzzled scientists for decades, MIT and
> "Harvard researchers have discovered the final piece of the synthesis
> pathway of vitamin B12--the only vitamin synthesized exclusively by
> microorganisms."
>
> Not relevant to why plants are not a source of vit b12, just a statement
> of what relationship the bacteria which produce it has with plants.
>
> The only question of interest to me is where in the cycle do humans tap
> into the cycle as they make dietary choices or respond to those they can
> make given various restrictions. Humans must get it from consuming
> something, and plants are not among those choices in any viable form in
> and of themselves.

> The only question of interest to me is where in the cycle do humans tap
> into the cycle as they make dietary choices or respond to those they can
> make given various restrictions.

"Like when humans travel to the frigid poles of the earth or food
irradiation "restrictions?"
Fascinating..."

I'm not sure I follow your question. My comment was in followup to a
previous point that humans because of cultural choices or because of
poverty might have a largely plant based diet. In which case they would
have to make choices about supplimenting vit b12 accordingly from the drug
store or eating soil or feces or directly or indirectly from animal
products.

On Aug 11, 3:54 pm, wrote:
> > The only question of interest to me is where in the cycle do humans tap
> > into the cycle as they make dietary choices or respond to those they can
> > make given various restrictions.
>
> "Like when humans travel to the frigid poles of the earth or food
> irradiation "restrictions?"
> Fascinating..."
>
> I'm not sure I follow your question. My comment was in followup to a
> previous point that humans because of cultural choices or because of
> poverty might have a largely plant based diet.

Your cryptic "various restrictions" of culture & finance have nothing
to do with adaptation to eat a plant based diet for health reasons. If
some people are financially limited (another subject) they may not
choose to purchase meat but other poor people kill and ingest rodents/
mammals/eggs, etc, regardless of financial situation.

> In which case they would
> have to make choices about supplimenting vit b12 accordingly from the drug
> store or eating soil or feces or directly or indirectly from animal
> products.

Just buy a pill or food that has been replenished with B12. This is
easily/routinely accomplished without financial limitations, consuming
feces or cultural pressure. There is no shortage of available B12 on a
plant based diet today outside the city limits of cultures that have
not abandoned their ecological niche. There was no shortage of
available B12 on plant based diets while direct lineage was adapting
for 63 million yrs. There are no B12 deficiencies known among wild
great apes in habitat. There is no B12 issue except for the
irrelevant, off topic modern cultural/financial "restrictions" you are
trying to carve out while ignoring adaptation and health in general.

Chris

On Tue, 12 Aug 2008 02:36:22 -0700 (PDT), crisology > wrote:

>There is no shortage of available B12 on a plant based diet today
>outside the city limits of cultures that have not abandoned their
>ecological niche.

Why do you think there is not? Do you think that's true
regardless of what plants a person eats, or do you think
they must eat certain plants in order to make your claim
true? If the latter, what exactly must they eat in order for
your claim to be correct?

> > The only question of interest to me is where in the cycle do humans
tap
> > into the cycle as they make dietary choices or respond to those they
can
> > make given various restrictions.
>
> "Like when humans travel to the frigid poles of the earth or food
> irradiation "restrictions?"
> Fascinating..."
>
> I'm not sure I follow your question. My comment was in followup to a
> previous point that humans because of cultural choices or because of
> poverty might have a largely plant based diet.

"Your cryptic "various restrictions" of culture & finance have nothing to
do with adaptation to eat a plant based diet for health reasons. If some
people are financially limited (another subject) they may not choose to
purchase meat but other poor people kill and ingest rodents/
mammals/eggs," etc, regardless of financial situation."

Who is saying otherwise? This is known as a strawman argument,ie. slay an
inderectly related strawman and declare the real topic also refuted.
Poverty prevents a large fraction of the globe from eating meat not at all
or as much as they wish which would otherwise be their choice. Often they
do have access directly or indirectly to animal products, including those
whose first choice would be to eat plants alone but get the animal
products nonetheless.


> In which case they would
> have to make choices about supplimenting vit b12 accordingly from the
drug
> store or eating soil or feces or directly or indirectly from animal
> products.

"Just buy a pill or food that has been replenished with B12. This is
easily/routinely accomplished without financial limitations, consuming
feces or cultural pressure. There is no shortage of available B12 on a
plant based diet today outside the city limits of cultures that have not
abandoned their ecological niche. "

Replinished means added to foods not having them in nature. Afford is not
a reality for most of the world's population. Feces are directly or
indirectly the source for some of them. South india where traditional
farming methods prevail and mostly plants are used have high levels of vit
b12 deficiency. Those who were not farmers else where consume animal
products.

"There was no shortage of available B12 on plant based diets while direct
lineage was adapting for 63 million yrs. There are no B12 deficiencies
known among wild great apes in habitat. There is no B12 issue except for
the irrelevant, off topic modern cultural/financial "restrictions" you are
trying to carve out while ignoring adaptation and health in general."

And all animals find it either in the soil or in feces or by consuming
animal products or producing it in their own large gut. They ignore
financual considerations has they have for millions of years. Bacteria
produce vit b12, not plants.

On Aug 12, 10:06 am, wrote:
> > > The only question of interest to me is where in the cycle do humans
> tap
> > > into the cycle as they make dietary choices or respond to those they
> can
> > > make given various restrictions.
>
> > "Like when humans travel to the frigid poles of the earth or food
> > irradiation "restrictions?"
> > Fascinating..."
>
> > I'm not sure I follow your question. My comment was in followup to a
> > previous point that humans because of cultural choices or because of
> > poverty might have a largely plant based diet.
>
> "Your cryptic "various restrictions" of culture & finance have nothing to
> do with adaptation to eat a plant based diet for health reasons. If some
> people are financially limited (another subject) they may not choose to
> purchase meat but other poor people kill and ingest rodents/
> mammals/eggs," etc, regardless of financial situation."
>
> Who is saying otherwise?

Then it is irrelevant whether people can afford to eat meat or not.
And your cryptic question about "various restrictions" of finance &
culture facilitates no discussion about nutritional reasons for a
natural plant diet.

> This is known as a strawman argument,ie. slay an
> inderectly related strawman and declare the real topic also refuted.

"The real topic" was you switching the topic to modern "various
restrictions" (unrelated to adaptation) so the enthememe was based on
a false premise since finances have no relevance to adaptation or
optimal diet.

> Poverty prevents a large fraction of the globe from eating meat not at all
> or as much as they wish

"wishes and finances" today are not reflections of adaptation but of
customs so this is off topic.

> which would otherwise be their choice.

Otherwise it is not necessarily "their choice" to consume meat as some
people (who eat for natural health reasons) do not eat meat.

> Often they
> do have access directly or indirectly to animal products, including those
> whose first choice would be to eat plants alone but get the animal
> products nonetheless.
>
> > In which case they would
> > have to make choices about supplimenting vit b12 accordingly from the
> drug
> > store or eating soil or feces or directly or indirectly from animal
> > products.
>
> "Just buy a pill or food that has been replenished with B12. This is
> easily/routinely accomplished without financial limitations, consuming
> feces or cultural pressure. There is no shortage of available B12 on a
> plant based diet today outside the city limits of cultures that have not
> abandoned their ecological niche. "
>
> Replinished means added to foods not having them in nature.

No. replenish means to return. Not just adding. Context clues about
the fact B12 is destroyed through processing would have made that
obvious.

re·plen·ish (r-plnsh)
v. re·plen·ished,
1. To fill or make complete again; add a new stock or supply to:
replenish the larder..
v.intr.
To become full again

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/replenished

So there is nothing unnatural or unhealthy in terms of diet by
replenishing (returning) B12 by supplementing foods that were depleted
of B12 through processing.

Afford is not
> a reality for most of the world's population.

Which is why I gave money to charity. Financial problems and
overpopulation are not the topic here though.

Feces are directly or
> indirectly the source for some of them. South india where traditional
> farming methods prevail and mostly plants are used have high levels of vit
> b12 deficiency. Those who were not farmers else where consume animal
> products.

So in India, "traditional farming methods" depletes B12.. Creating a
need for replenishing B12 in food.

> "There was no shortage of available B12 on plant based diets while direct
> lineage was adapting for 63 million yrs. There are no B12 deficiencies
> known among wild great apes in habitat. There is no B12 issue except for
> the irrelevant, off topic modern cultural/financial "restrictions" you are
> trying to carve out while ignoring adaptation and health in general."
>
> And all animals find it either in the soil or in feces or by consuming
> animal products or producing it in their own large gut. They ignore
> financual considerations has they have for millions of years. Bacteria
> produce vit b12, not plants.

B12 is also naturally found in/on plants. Drinking water from a stream
in a forest may also provide B12. The fact is there are no wild
primates deficient in B12 so it really isn't an issue anyway. The B12
deficiency is the result of modern "farming methods" as you admitted
with your India example.

Chris

long segments of irrelevant quibbles snipped.

Feces are directly or indirectly the source for some of them. South india
where traditional farming methods prevail and mostly plants are used have
high levels of vi=

b12 deficiency. Those who were not farmers else where consume animal
products.

"So in India, "traditional farming methods" depletes B12.. Creating a need
for replenishing B12 in food."

That in logic is known as a tautology. Cow manure is the primary
fertilizer and is rich in the bacteria which produce vit b12, not to
mention that human feces is often used and there is some amount there
also. So a bacteria poor soil is not the problem. The problem is that
aside from some milk they do not otherwise tap into the cow to manure to
soil to cow cycle where the bacteria is abundant in all parts.

> "There was no shortage of available B12 on plant based diets while
direct
> lineage was adapting for 63 million yrs. There are no B12 deficiencies
> known among wild great apes in habitat. There is no B12 issue except for
> the irrelevant, off topic modern cultural/financial "restrictions" you
ar=
e
> trying to carve out while ignoring adaptation and health in general."
>
> And all animals find it either in the soil or in feces or by consuming
> animal products or producing it in their own large gut. They ignore
> financual considerations has they have for millions of years. Bacteria
> produce vit b12, not plants.

"B12 is also naturally found in/on plants. Drinking water from a stream in
a forest may also provide B12. The fact is there are no wild primates
deficient in B12 so it really isn't an issue anyway. The B12 deficiency is
the result of modern "farming methods" as you admitted with your India
example."

Some of the animals eat insects and small animals but in any case they all
tap into the cycle. For those who consume plants only in addition to
tapping into the cycle they produce it in their own large gut. Some
animals eat feces so that produced is then put into the small gut where it
can be absorbed. Any soil or feces attached to plants or minor amounts
taken up in water in plants is incidental to the cycle. Plants do not
produce it bacteria do.

> wrote in message ...

> South india
> where traditional farming methods prevail and mostly plants are used have
> high levels of vi= b12 deficiency.

Unsupported claims. If you're standing by your "high levels of b12
deficiency" (you've yet to provide some evidence, and repeatedly
refused to address the issue of widespread under-nutrition anyway)
now provide proof that the following doesn't apply to south India:

'Green revolution in India has witnessed a jump in agricultural production
with the introduction of HYVs of various crops and by following intensive
cultivation practices with the use of fertilizers, pesticides and other inputs.
The intensive use of inputs has not only polluted the soil, water and the
environment causing their slow degradation but also affected the human
beings. With the increase in the country's population, compulsion would
be not only to mobilize the agricultural production but also to increase
further in a sustainable manner. The scientists have realized that the green
revolution with high input use has reached a plateau and is now sustained
with diminishing return and falling dividend. Therefore, there is a need to
study the past trends in inputs usage like fertilizers and pesticides which
are the major components in crop production and future challenges and
strategies for sustainable agriculture.
...
Consumption of chemical fertilizers has increased tremendously in recent
years. Nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium are the primary fertilizers
nutrients which are widely used in our country.
...
The total consumption of chemical fertilizers is in increasing trends from
0.69 lakh (thousand) tonnes in 1950-51 to 173.18 lakh tonnes in 1997-98.
...
Continuous use of inorganic fertilizers mainly containing major nutrients
NPK in large quantities and neglecting organic and bio-fertilizers paved
the way for deterioration of soil health and in turn ill effects on plants,
human being and cattle.

The adverse effects of using fertilizers are explained below.
...
Development of soil acidification and alkalization due to continuous use
of acidic (NH4 Cl (NH2 ) SO4 etc.) and basic (NANO3 ) (CAN basic
slag etc.) fertilizers causing imbalance in nutrients availability to crops
and affecting activities of beneficial micro organisms.
...'
http://www.manage.gov.in/managelib/faculty/manohari.htm

'There were indications that trace element deficiencies in Indian soils
might be comparatively widespread with intensification of agriculture.
...'
http://www.ipipotash.org/udocs/Potas...20F uture.pdf

"pearl" > wrote in message ...
> > wrote in message ...
>
> > South india
> > where traditional farming methods prevail and mostly plants are used have
> > high levels of vi= b12 deficiency.
>
> Unsupported claims. If you're standing by your "high levels of b12
> deficiency" (you've yet to provide some evidence, and repeatedly
> refused to address the issue of widespread under-nutrition anyway)
> now provide proof that the following doesn't apply to south India:
>
> 'Green revolution in India has witnessed a jump in agricultural production
> with the introduction of HYVs of various crops and by following intensive
> cultivation practices with the use of fertilizers, pesticides and other inputs.
> The intensive use of inputs has not only polluted the soil, water and the
> environment causing their slow degradation but also affected the human
> beings. With the increase in the country's population, compulsion would
> be not only to mobilize the agricultural production but also to increase
> further in a sustainable manner. The scientists have realized that the green
> revolution with high input use has reached a plateau and is now sustained
> with diminishing return and falling dividend. Therefore, there is a need to
> study the past trends in inputs usage like fertilizers and pesticides which
> are the major components in crop production and future challenges and
> strategies for sustainable agriculture.
> ..
> Consumption of chemical fertilizers has increased tremendously in recent
> years. Nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium are the primary fertilizers
> nutrients which are widely used in our country.
> ..
> The total consumption of chemical fertilizers is in increasing trends from
> 0.69 lakh (thousand) tonnes in 1950-51 to 173.18 lakh tonnes in 1997-98.

"lakh" = 100,000.

> ..
> Continuous use of inorganic fertilizers mainly containing major nutrients
> NPK in large quantities and neglecting organic and bio-fertilizers paved
> the way for deterioration of soil health and in turn ill effects on plants,
> human being and cattle.
>
> The adverse effects of using fertilizers are explained below.
> ..
> Development of soil acidification and alkalization due to continuous use
> of acidic (NH4 Cl (NH2 ) SO4 etc.) and basic (NANO3 ) (CAN basic
> slag etc.) fertilizers causing imbalance in nutrients availability to crops
> and affecting activities of beneficial micro organisms.
> ..'
> http://www.manage.gov.in/managelib/faculty/manohari.htm
>
> 'There were indications that trace element deficiencies in Indian soils
> might be comparatively widespread with intensification of agriculture.
> ..'
> http://www.ipipotash.org/udocs/Potas...20F uture.pdf

> South india
> where traditional farming methods prevail and mostly plants are used
have
> high levels of vi= b12 deficiency.

"Unsupported claims. If you're standing by your "high levels of b12
deficiency" (you've yet to provide some evidence, and repeatedly refused
to address the issue of widespread under-nutrition anyway) now provide
proof that the following doesn't apply to south India:"

"More than 60percent of the women had low levels of vitamin B12"

snip

"Indian mothers have been shown to be deficient in vitamin B12. This
vitamin
is required in very small amounts, about 2-4 micrograms per day.
Non-vegetarian foods and dairy products are rich sources of this vitamin.

Most Indians are vegetarian for religious reasons or because of
socio-economic reasons."

Under-nutrition usually relates to level of caloric intake, while
mal-nutrition relates to not having the proper things in the diet. Both
could affect vit b12. The presumption that eating more of a diet that has
mal-nutrition seems dubious. The green revolution aided the
under-nutrition and india became self sufficient in grain production.
But having more of a diet with little vitt b12 does not help. Milk is the
largest source of vit b12 but only if not boiled or fermented.

As for the green revolution in your last point, I nor anyone can prove a
negative. Farmers are very practical people. it is difficult to consider
they would not use a free manure source to reduce howmuch fertilizer they
would have to buy.

But let us say I'm 100 percent wrong in the india example. What difference
in the basic topic would it make? You seem to be going for the quibble
value alone again. Plants are not a source of vit b12, bacteria are and
there was no golden past era of farming that changes that. It looks like
you are more interested in ego pointsthen really an ernest look at the
topic.

I really have no interest to play in that sandbox.

On Aug 12, 5:16 pm, wrote:
> long segments of irrelevant quibbles snipped.

On Aug 12, 3:12 pm, crisology > wrote:

> So there is nothing unnatural or unhealthy in terms of diet by
> replenishing (returning) B12 by supplementing foods that were depleted
> of B12 through processing.

Your cryptic fixation on OT cultural & financial issues while ignoring
health & adaptation related reasons for diet has been duly noted.

> Cow manure is the primary
> fertilizer

India's cow manure was NOT "the primary fertilizer" for 63 million yrs
of primate evolution. You are completely ignoring human adaptation and
nutritional reasons for plant based diets while you remain narrowly
focussed on modern farming methods out of habitat. Bacteria are washed
off commercial food but in African rainforests, wild figs, leaves can
be teeming w/B12.

> they do not otherwise tap into the cow to manure to
> soil to cow cycle where the bacteria is abundant in all parts.

You are not providing a snapshot of the raw habitat primates evolved
in by any stretch. Your cryptic examples are not remotely related to
conditions of the rainforests in Africa today or at any time..

Stripped/turned soil, out of habitat for processed commercial crops
using pesticides that leave oil residues that restrict micronutrient
absorption, washing, cooking after transport, weather changes, etc do
NOT reflect the natural diet of fresh raw, unprocessed fruit/leaves in
rainforests.

Cow manure can be "the primary fertilizer" but if any commercial
fertilizers have been used, oil residues are left, which impede
micronutrient absorption. You are purposely trying to use unnatural
examples to pass off as somehow representing adaptive environment
while ignoring the fact there is no B12 issue in natural habitat for
any frugivorous hominidae.

> > "There was no shortage of available B12 on plant based diets while
> direct
> > lineage was adapting for 63 million yrs. There are no B12 deficiencies
> > known among wild great apes in habitat. There is no B12 issue except for
> > the irrelevant, off topic modern cultural/financial "restrictions" you
>
> ar=
> e
>
> > trying to carve out while ignoring adaptation and health in general."
>
> > And all animals find it either in the soil or in feces or by consuming
> > animal products or producing it in their own large gut. They ignore
> > financual considerations has they have for millions of years. Bacteria
> > produce vit b12, not plants.

Fermenting bacteria cultures may spread away from the feces. The feces
does not have to be sought/consumed directly.for B12 to be available
on leaves/fruit/water/sand uncovered with the feces itself.

> "B12 is also naturally found in/on plants. Drinking water from a stream in
> a forest may also provide B12. The fact is there are no wild primates
> deficient in B12 so it really isn't an issue anyway. The B12 deficiency is
> the result of modern "farming methods" as you admitted with your India
> example."
>
> Plants do not
> produce it bacteria do.

Animals do not produce it, bacteria do.

Chris

> > And all animals find it either in the soil or in feces or by consuming
> > animal products or producing it in their own large gut. They ignore
> > financual considerations has they have for millions of years.
Bacteria
> > produce vit b12, not plants.

"Fermenting bacteria cultures may spread away from the feces. The feces
does not have to be sought/consumed directly.for B12 to be available on
leaves/fruit/water/sand uncovered with the feces itself."

Yes, but it does not exclude feces in the soil being associated with plant
parts either. As above, soil can contain the bacteria as your blurb
mentions.

> "B12 is also naturally found in/on plants. Drinking water from a stream
in
> a forest may also provide B12. The fact is there are no wild primates
> deficient in B12 so it really isn't an issue anyway. The B12 deficiency
is
> the result of modern "farming methods" as you admitted with your India
> example."
>
> Plants do not
> produce it bacteria do.

"Animals do not produce it, bacteria do."

Who said otherwise? However in contrast to plants, animal guts harbor and
provide access to the food for the bacteria. Animal guts are a core part
of the cycle, plants are incidental and not necessary for it except as
food in part for the bacteria. Plants can have the soil and/feces
attached to them or have infused some minor part of vit b12 into them
depending on the type of plant.

Unless you have more to add, going round one more time seems a waste.
There is no mystery that humans must tap into the gut to feces to soil
back to gut cycle at some point to get vit b12. Plants can be a
mechanical tool to do this under certain conditions where soil and/feces
or water from same are present. All your remarks but support this, again.

> wrote in message ...
> > South india
> > where traditional farming methods prevail and mostly plants are used
> have
> > high levels of vi= b12 deficiency.
>
> "Unsupported claims. If you're standing by your "high levels of b12
> deficiency" (you've yet to provide some evidence, and repeatedly refused
> to address the issue of widespread under-nutrition anyway) now provide
> proof that the following doesn't apply to south India:"
>
> "More than 60percent of the women had low levels of vitamin B12"
>
> snip
>
> "Indian mothers have been shown to be deficient in vitamin B12. This
> vitamin
> is required in very small amounts, about 2-4 micrograms per day.
>
> Non-vegetarian foods and dairy products are rich sources of this vitamin.

As already pointed out more than once, Indians consume dairy. But..

'WOMEN ARE MALNOURISHED

The exceptionally high rates of malnutrition in South Asia are rooted
deeply in the soil of inequality between men and women.
...
"Gender disparities in nutrition are evident from infancy to adulthood.
In fact, gender has been the most statistically significant determinant of
malnutrition among young children and malnutrition is a frequent direct
or underlying cause of death among girls below age 5. Girls are breast-
fed less frequently and for shorter durations in infancy; in childhood
and adulthood, males are fed first and better. Adult women consume
approximately 1,000 fewer calories per day than men according to one
estimate from Punjab. Comparison of household dietary intake studies
in different parts of the country shows that nutritional equity between
males and females is lower in northern than in southern states."

Nutritional deprivation has two major consequences for women: they
never reach their full growth potential and anaemia. Both are risk factors
in pregnancy, with anaemia ranging from 40-50 percent in urban areas
to 50-70 percent in rural areas. This condition complicates childbearing
and result in maternal and infant deaths, and low birth weight infants.
...'
http://www.thp.org/reports/indiawom.htm#m1

> Most Indians are vegetarian for religious reasons or because of
> socio-economic reasons."

Most people get someone else to kill, as humans are not true
predators it's not in our nature to kill and we find it upsetting.

Most people have been influenced to regard meat-eating as
an indication of favourable socio-economic status, and so
eat carcasses of dead animals for the positive self-image...

News Flash: Some Indians in extreme poverty are eating rats.
But why would this be news-worthy if humans naturally "eat
everything they can get their hands on"? Please explain, hari.

> Under-nutrition usually relates to level of caloric intake, while
> mal-nutrition relates to not having the proper things in the diet. Both
> could affect vit b12.

There you go.

> The presumption that eating more of a diet that has
> mal-nutrition seems dubious. The green revolution aided the
> under-nutrition and india became self sufficient in grain production.
> But having more of a diet with little vitt b12 does not help.

1 + 1 = 1?

> Milk is the
> largest source of vit b12 but only if not boiled or fermented.
>
> As for the green revolution in your last point, I nor anyone can prove a
> negative. Farmers are very practical people. it is difficult to consider
> they would not use a free manure source to reduce howmuch fertilizer they
> would have to buy.

You could prove a positive by supporting your claim with evidence,
but with your "reduce how much fertilizer they would have to buy" it
looks like you've backed off from your statement "South india where
traditional farming methods prevail and mostly plants are used have
high levels of vi= b12 deficiency."

> But let us say I'm 100 percent wrong in the india example. What difference
> in the basic topic would it make? You seem to be going for the quibble
> value alone again. Plants are not a source of vit b12, bacteria are and
> there was no golden past era of farming that changes that.

'Continuous use of inorganic fertilizers mainly containing major nutrients
NPK in large quantities and neglecting organic and bio-fertilizers paved
the way for deterioration of soil health and in turn ill effects on plants,
human being and cattle.

The adverse effects of using fertilizers are explained below.
...
Development of soil acidification and alkalization due to continuous use
of acidic (NH4 Cl (NH2 ) SO4 etc.) and basic (NANO3 ) (CAN basic
slag etc.) fertilizers causing imbalance in nutrients availability to crops
and affecting activities of beneficial micro organisms.
...'
http://www.manage.gov.in/managelib/faculty/manohari.htm

'There were indications that trace element deficiencies in Indian soils
might be comparatively widespread with intensification of agriculture.
...'
http://www.ipipotash.org/udocs/Potas...20F uture.pdf

Go back to my first post in this thread. Do read it this time.

> It looks like
> you are more interested in ego pointsthen really an ernest look at the
> topic.
>
> I really have no interest to play in that sandbox.