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Dragonblaze 24-06-2008 02:01 PM

Daily Mail: How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
 
How a strict vegan diet made my children ill

By Angus Watson
Last updated at 1:30 PM on 24th June 2008

Comments (11) Add to My Stories
Holly Paige couldn't understand why her children, Bertie, then four,
and Lizzie, three, were looking so drawn and skinny, yet their
stomachs were full.


Then when Lizzie smiled at her one day, Holly was horrified to see
that her top row of teeth were brown and full of cavities.


'I couldn't work out what was going on,' says Holly, who lives in
Totnes, Devon. 'We all ate exceptionally healthily, with plenty of
vegetables, nuts and seeds.'


Misguided: Holly Paige with her two children, Bertie (left) and Lizzie



The problem was that this was all the Paiges ate. They had a strict
vegan diet, and ate only raw food.


From the day they were weaned, Bertie and Lizzie had never eaten meat,
fish or dairy foods - except a slice of raw goat's cheese once a
month.


'I'd heard about the raw food diet through a friend and thought it
sounded like a really healthy thing to do,' says Holly, 45.


'I was assured by the people who devised the diet that we would get
all the protein we needed from nuts and seeds, and we also took a
daily supplement to replace the nutrients found in animal foods.


'We also ate pulses, grains and soya; I thought we were on the most
nutritious diet possible.


'But then I started noticing that something wasn't right. The children
were wearing clothes two sizes smaller than they should have been. I
have two older children and they never had growth problems or tooth
decay. Bertie and Lizzie's muscles seemed weak and they had problems
seeing at night.


'When we went to the supermarket, Lizzie would grab a pack of butter
and start gnawing on it. I couldn't understand why this well-fed child
was behaving like this. I was so brainwashed that the fact our bodies
were craving dairy products had passed me by.'


Holly referred to a vitamin book, where she discovered the children's
symptoms were a sign of serious protein and vitamin D deficiency.


'I had let malnutrition in through the back door in the name of
health,' she recalls now with horror.


She immediately introduced dairy into their diet, and says the change
in the children's health has been 'remarkable'.


Alarmingly, Holly's is a far from unique case. Earlier this month,
Glasgow's Royal Hospital for Sick Children reported a 12-year-old girl
with a severe form of rickets.


Her parents, 'well-known figures in Glasgow's vegan community', had
unwittingly starved her of necessary nutrients found in fish and meat,
causing her to develop the bone-wasting disease usually associated
with 19thcentury slums.


A Trading Standards study into nursery food recently found that many
nurseries were feeding toddlers a diet too high in fruit and
vegetables, and too low in calories and fats, putting them at risk of
nutritional deficiencies.


Health information overload


'There's so much health information that parents are confused,' says
the Mail's nutritionist, Jane Clarke.


'They think it's best to take what they think are "bad things" out of
their child's diet, but often denying children meat, milk or wheat can
do more harm than good.'


Jessica Hatfield discovered this for herself when her nine-year-old
son Max, a previously active, sporty child, became increasingly run
down. Some days he had no energy at all and couldn't get out of bed.


To Jessica's surprise, her GP referred Max to a child nutritionist. 'I
couldn't understand it - he'd always eaten so healthily,' she says.


She was even more astonished when the nutritionist said his supposedly
'healthy' diet - no carbohydrates and only meat, fish, and salad -
wasn't giving him enough energy to fuel his active life.


As Judy More, the nutritionist who saw Max, explains: 'Once his diet
was described to me, it was obvious why he had no energy. Children
need a constant supply of energy, especially if they're doing sport,
and the quickest way is carbs.


'His mother's mistake was to follow a fad diet, hyped up by magazines
and endorsed by celebrities, to a growing child.'


Furthermore, forcing a child to go dairy-free so young, without
replacing calcium, also risks giving them bad teeth and poor bone
growth and osteoporosis. Since bone-building stops in our early 20s,
weak bones in our teens mean weak bones for life.


Red meat is another worry for parents after a recent World Cancer
Research Fund report linked processed red meat to cancer.


Some mothers have removed all red meat from their children's diet,
without replacing its vital iron. This is potentially harmful because
children need iron for brain development and physical growth.


Too much fibre is another problem created by some fussy parents. Jane
Clarke recalls: 'A miserable little boy was brought to me with
constant diarrhoea.


His parents, who were feeding him almost exclusively on bread and
vegetables, couldn't see what could be wrong. He got better as soon as
we switched to a lower fibre diet.


'Because fibre absorbs water, it's like a sponge inside the stomach.
Since a child's stomach is so small, it's easy for food to fill them
up before they eat other nutritious foodstuffs such as protein and
fats, which are essential for energy and helping them grow.'


Too many wholegrains


She says it's important not to give pre-school children in particular
too much wholegrain food. The irony is that later in life, once free
of their dietary strictures, these 'healthily' skinny children are at
risk of obesity, says paediatric health and exercise specialist Dr
Caroline Dodd, of Northumbria University.


'An American study found that restricting children's access to snacks
leads to more snacking later in life.


'It's particularly true of young girls. By making sweets and crisps
taboo, they become all the more attractive.'


Everyone agrees the solution is simple: don't treat children as adults
and subject them to faddy diets or crazy exercise regimes.


Although dieticians are seeing more children harmed by over-fussy
parents, Jane Clarke is optimistic the numbers will soon decline: 'The
pseudo-science on ridiculous TV programmes is beginning to be exposed,
and sensible advice from properly qualified people is beginning to
prevail.'


For Holly's children, the good news is that their early lack of dairy
seems to have caused no long-term damage. 'Bertie and Lizzie are now
the correct size for their age and their rotten milk teeth are being
replaced by healthy, white ones. I'm so relieved.

'What I realise now is that the raw food movement is actually a cult -
these people will do anything to explain away the fact that for some
people, this diet can have very damaging health consequences.


'I'm a very maternal person and can't believe I was so misguided as to
risk my children's health.'


Some names have been changed.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...ldren-ill.html

Rupert 24-06-2008 04:49 PM

Daily Mail: How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
 
On Jun 24, 9:01 pm, Dragonblaze > wrote:
> How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
>
> By Angus Watson
> Last updated at 1:30 PM on 24th June 2008
>
> Comments (11) Add to My Stories
> Holly Paige couldn't understand why her children, Bertie, then four,
> and Lizzie, three, were looking so drawn and skinny, yet their
> stomachs were full.
>
> Then when Lizzie smiled at her one day, Holly was horrified to see
> that her top row of teeth were brown and full of cavities.
>
> 'I couldn't work out what was going on,' says Holly, who lives in
> Totnes, Devon. 'We all ate exceptionally healthily, with plenty of
> vegetables, nuts and seeds.'
>
> Misguided: Holly Paige with her two children, Bertie (left) and Lizzie
>
> The problem was that this was all the Paiges ate. They had a strict
> vegan diet, and ate only raw food.
>
> From the day they were weaned, Bertie and Lizzie had never eaten meat,
> fish or dairy foods - except a slice of raw goat's cheese once a
> month.
>
> 'I'd heard about the raw food diet through a friend and thought it
> sounded like a really healthy thing to do,' says Holly, 45.
>
> 'I was assured by the people who devised the diet that we would get
> all the protein we needed from nuts and seeds, and we also took a
> daily supplement to replace the nutrients found in animal foods.
>
> 'We also ate pulses, grains and soya; I thought we were on the most
> nutritious diet possible.
>
> 'But then I started noticing that something wasn't right. The children
> were wearing clothes two sizes smaller than they should have been. I
> have two older children and they never had growth problems or tooth
> decay. Bertie and Lizzie's muscles seemed weak and they had problems
> seeing at night.
>
> 'When we went to the supermarket, Lizzie would grab a pack of butter
> and start gnawing on it. I couldn't understand why this well-fed child
> was behaving like this. I was so brainwashed that the fact our bodies
> were craving dairy products had passed me by.'
>
> Holly referred to a vitamin book, where she discovered the children's
> symptoms were a sign of serious protein and vitamin D deficiency.
>
> 'I had let malnutrition in through the back door in the name of
> health,' she recalls now with horror.
>
> She immediately introduced dairy into their diet, and says the change
> in the children's health has been 'remarkable'.
>
> Alarmingly, Holly's is a far from unique case. Earlier this month,
> Glasgow's Royal Hospital for Sick Children reported a 12-year-old girl
> with a severe form of rickets.
>
> Her parents, 'well-known figures in Glasgow's vegan community', had
> unwittingly starved her of necessary nutrients found in fish and meat,
> causing her to develop the bone-wasting disease usually associated
> with 19thcentury slums.
>
> A Trading Standards study into nursery food recently found that many
> nurseries were feeding toddlers a diet too high in fruit and
> vegetables, and too low in calories and fats, putting them at risk of
> nutritional deficiencies.
>
> Health information overload
>
> 'There's so much health information that parents are confused,' says
> the Mail's nutritionist, Jane Clarke.
>
> 'They think it's best to take what they think are "bad things" out of
> their child's diet, but often denying children meat, milk or wheat can
> do more harm than good.'
>
> Jessica Hatfield discovered this for herself when her nine-year-old
> son Max, a previously active, sporty child, became increasingly run
> down. Some days he had no energy at all and couldn't get out of bed.
>
> To Jessica's surprise, her GP referred Max to a child nutritionist. 'I
> couldn't understand it - he'd always eaten so healthily,' she says.
>
> She was even more astonished when the nutritionist said his supposedly
> 'healthy' diet - no carbohydrates and only meat, fish, and salad -
> wasn't giving him enough energy to fuel his active life.
>
> As Judy More, the nutritionist who saw Max, explains: 'Once his diet
> was described to me, it was obvious why he had no energy. Children
> need a constant supply of energy, especially if they're doing sport,
> and the quickest way is carbs.
>
> 'His mother's mistake was to follow a fad diet, hyped up by magazines
> and endorsed by celebrities, to a growing child.'
>
> Furthermore, forcing a child to go dairy-free so young, without
> replacing calcium, also risks giving them bad teeth and poor bone
> growth and osteoporosis. Since bone-building stops in our early 20s,
> weak bones in our teens mean weak bones for life.
>
> Red meat is another worry for parents after a recent World Cancer
> Research Fund report linked processed red meat to cancer.
>
> Some mothers have removed all red meat from their children's diet,
> without replacing its vital iron. This is potentially harmful because
> children need iron for brain development and physical growth.
>
> Too much fibre is another problem created by some fussy parents. Jane
> Clarke recalls: 'A miserable little boy was brought to me with
> constant diarrhoea.
>
> His parents, who were feeding him almost exclusively on bread and
> vegetables, couldn't see what could be wrong. He got better as soon as
> we switched to a lower fibre diet.
>
> 'Because fibre absorbs water, it's like a sponge inside the stomach.
> Since a child's stomach is so small, it's easy for food to fill them
> up before they eat other nutritious foodstuffs such as protein and
> fats, which are essential for energy and helping them grow.'
>
> Too many wholegrains
>
> She says it's important not to give pre-school children in particular
> too much wholegrain food. The irony is that later in life, once free
> of their dietary strictures, these 'healthily' skinny children are at
> risk of obesity, says paediatric health and exercise specialist Dr
> Caroline Dodd, of Northumbria University.
>
> 'An American study found that restricting children's access to snacks
> leads to more snacking later in life.
>
> 'It's particularly true of young girls. By making sweets and crisps
> taboo, they become all the more attractive.'
>
> Everyone agrees the solution is simple: don't treat children as adults
> and subject them to faddy diets or crazy exercise regimes.
>
> Although dieticians are seeing more children harmed by over-fussy
> parents, Jane Clarke is optimistic the numbers will soon decline: 'The
> pseudo-science on ridiculous TV programmes is beginning to be exposed,
> and sensible advice from properly qualified people is beginning to
> prevail.'
>
> For Holly's children, the good news is that their early lack of dairy
> seems to have caused no long-term damage. 'Bertie and Lizzie are now
> the correct size for their age and their rotten milk teeth are being
> replaced by healthy, white ones. I'm so relieved.
>
> 'What I realise now is that the raw food movement is actually a cult -
> these people will do anything to explain away the fact that for some
> people, this diet can have very damaging health consequences.
>
> 'I'm a very maternal person and can't believe I was so misguided as to
> risk my children's health.'
>
> Some names have been changed.
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...trict-vegan-di...


http://www.eatright.org/cps/rde/xchg...3_ENU_HTML.htm

Rupert 24-06-2008 04:53 PM

Daily Mail: How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
 
On Jun 24, 9:01 pm, Dragonblaze > wrote:
> How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
>
> By Angus Watson
> Last updated at 1:30 PM on 24th June 2008
>
> Comments (11) Add to My Stories
> Holly Paige couldn't understand why her children, Bertie, then four,
> and Lizzie, three, were looking so drawn and skinny, yet their
> stomachs were full.
>
> Then when Lizzie smiled at her one day, Holly was horrified to see
> that her top row of teeth were brown and full of cavities.
>
> 'I couldn't work out what was going on,' says Holly, who lives in
> Totnes, Devon. 'We all ate exceptionally healthily, with plenty of
> vegetables, nuts and seeds.'
>
> Misguided: Holly Paige with her two children, Bertie (left) and Lizzie
>
> The problem was that this was all the Paiges ate. They had a strict
> vegan diet, and ate only raw food.
>
> From the day they were weaned, Bertie and Lizzie had never eaten meat,
> fish or dairy foods - except a slice of raw goat's cheese once a
> month.
>
> 'I'd heard about the raw food diet through a friend and thought it
> sounded like a really healthy thing to do,' says Holly, 45.
>
> 'I was assured by the people who devised the diet that we would get
> all the protein we needed from nuts and seeds, and we also took a
> daily supplement to replace the nutrients found in animal foods.
>
> 'We also ate pulses, grains and soya; I thought we were on the most
> nutritious diet possible.
>
> 'But then I started noticing that something wasn't right. The children
> were wearing clothes two sizes smaller than they should have been. I
> have two older children and they never had growth problems or tooth
> decay. Bertie and Lizzie's muscles seemed weak and they had problems
> seeing at night.
>
> 'When we went to the supermarket, Lizzie would grab a pack of butter
> and start gnawing on it. I couldn't understand why this well-fed child
> was behaving like this. I was so brainwashed that the fact our bodies
> were craving dairy products had passed me by.'
>
> Holly referred to a vitamin book, where she discovered the children's
> symptoms were a sign of serious protein and vitamin D deficiency.
>
> 'I had let malnutrition in through the back door in the name of
> health,' she recalls now with horror.
>
> She immediately introduced dairy into their diet, and says the change
> in the children's health has been 'remarkable'.
>
> Alarmingly, Holly's is a far from unique case. Earlier this month,
> Glasgow's Royal Hospital for Sick Children reported a 12-year-old girl
> with a severe form of rickets.
>
> Her parents, 'well-known figures in Glasgow's vegan community', had
> unwittingly starved her of necessary nutrients found in fish and meat,
> causing her to develop the bone-wasting disease usually associated
> with 19thcentury slums.
>
> A Trading Standards study into nursery food recently found that many
> nurseries were feeding toddlers a diet too high in fruit and
> vegetables, and too low in calories and fats, putting them at risk of
> nutritional deficiencies.
>
> Health information overload
>
> 'There's so much health information that parents are confused,' says
> the Mail's nutritionist, Jane Clarke.
>
> 'They think it's best to take what they think are "bad things" out of
> their child's diet, but often denying children meat, milk or wheat can
> do more harm than good.'
>
> Jessica Hatfield discovered this for herself when her nine-year-old
> son Max, a previously active, sporty child, became increasingly run
> down. Some days he had no energy at all and couldn't get out of bed.
>
> To Jessica's surprise, her GP referred Max to a child nutritionist. 'I
> couldn't understand it - he'd always eaten so healthily,' she says.
>
> She was even more astonished when the nutritionist said his supposedly
> 'healthy' diet - no carbohydrates and only meat, fish, and salad -
> wasn't giving him enough energy to fuel his active life.
>
> As Judy More, the nutritionist who saw Max, explains: 'Once his diet
> was described to me, it was obvious why he had no energy. Children
> need a constant supply of energy, especially if they're doing sport,
> and the quickest way is carbs.
>
> 'His mother's mistake was to follow a fad diet, hyped up by magazines
> and endorsed by celebrities, to a growing child.'
>
> Furthermore, forcing a child to go dairy-free so young, without
> replacing calcium, also risks giving them bad teeth and poor bone
> growth and osteoporosis. Since bone-building stops in our early 20s,
> weak bones in our teens mean weak bones for life.
>
> Red meat is another worry for parents after a recent World Cancer
> Research Fund report linked processed red meat to cancer.
>
> Some mothers have removed all red meat from their children's diet,
> without replacing its vital iron. This is potentially harmful because
> children need iron for brain development and physical growth.
>
> Too much fibre is another problem created by some fussy parents. Jane
> Clarke recalls: 'A miserable little boy was brought to me with
> constant diarrhoea.
>
> His parents, who were feeding him almost exclusively on bread and
> vegetables, couldn't see what could be wrong. He got better as soon as
> we switched to a lower fibre diet.
>
> 'Because fibre absorbs water, it's like a sponge inside the stomach.
> Since a child's stomach is so small, it's easy for food to fill them
> up before they eat other nutritious foodstuffs such as protein and
> fats, which are essential for energy and helping them grow.'
>
> Too many wholegrains
>
> She says it's important not to give pre-school children in particular
> too much wholegrain food. The irony is that later in life, once free
> of their dietary strictures, these 'healthily' skinny children are at
> risk of obesity, says paediatric health and exercise specialist Dr
> Caroline Dodd, of Northumbria University.
>
> 'An American study found that restricting children's access to snacks
> leads to more snacking later in life.
>
> 'It's particularly true of young girls. By making sweets and crisps
> taboo, they become all the more attractive.'
>
> Everyone agrees the solution is simple: don't treat children as adults
> and subject them to faddy diets or crazy exercise regimes.
>
> Although dieticians are seeing more children harmed by over-fussy
> parents, Jane Clarke is optimistic the numbers will soon decline: 'The
> pseudo-science on ridiculous TV programmes is beginning to be exposed,
> and sensible advice from properly qualified people is beginning to
> prevail.'
>
> For Holly's children, the good news is that their early lack of dairy
> seems to have caused no long-term damage. 'Bertie and Lizzie are now
> the correct size for their age and their rotten milk teeth are being
> replaced by healthy, white ones. I'm so relieved.
>
> 'What I realise now is that the raw food movement is actually a cult -
> these people will do anything to explain away the fact that for some
> people, this diet can have very damaging health consequences.
>
> 'I'm a very maternal person and can't believe I was so misguided as to
> risk my children's health.'
>
> Some names have been changed.
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...trict-vegan-di...


http://www.eatright.org/ada/files/vegnp.pdf

Mr.Smartypants[_4_] 24-06-2008 06:45 PM

Daily Mail: How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
 
On Jun 24, 11:01*pm, Dragonblaze > wrote:
> How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
>
> By Angus Watson
> Last updated at 1:30 PM on 24th June 2008
>
> Comments (11) *Add to My Stories
> Holly Paige couldn't understand why her children, Bertie, then four,
> and Lizzie, three, were looking so drawn and skinny, yet their
> stomachs were full.
>
> Then when Lizzie smiled at her one day, Holly was horrified to see
> that her top row of teeth were brown and full of cavities.
>
> 'I couldn't work out what was going on,' says Holly, who lives in
> Totnes, Devon. 'We all ate exceptionally healthily, with plenty of
> vegetables, nuts and seeds.'
>
> Misguided: Holly Paige with her two children, Bertie (left) and Lizzie
>
> The problem was that this was all the Paiges ate. They had a strict
> vegan diet, and ate only raw food.
>
> From the day they were weaned, Bertie and Lizzie had never eaten meat,
> fish or dairy foods - except a slice of raw goat's cheese once a
> month.
>
> 'I'd heard about the raw food diet through a friend and thought it
> sounded like a really healthy thing to do,' says Holly, 45.
>
> 'I was assured by the people who devised the diet that we would get
> all the protein we needed from nuts and seeds, and we also took a
> daily supplement to replace the nutrients found in animal foods.
>
> 'We also ate pulses, grains and soya; I thought we were on the most
> nutritious diet possible.
>
> 'But then I started noticing that something wasn't right. The children
> were wearing clothes two sizes smaller than they should have been. I
> have two older children and they never had growth problems or tooth
> decay. Bertie and Lizzie's muscles seemed weak and they had problems
> seeing at night.
>
> 'When we went to the supermarket, Lizzie would grab a pack of butter
> and start gnawing on it. I couldn't understand why this well-fed child
> was behaving like this. I was so brainwashed that the fact our bodies
> were craving dairy products had passed me by.'
>
> Holly referred to a vitamin book, where she discovered the children's
> symptoms were a sign of serious protein and vitamin D deficiency.
>
> 'I had let malnutrition in through the back door in the name of
> health,' she recalls now with horror.
>
> She immediately introduced dairy into their diet, and says the change
> in the children's health has been 'remarkable'.
>
> Alarmingly, Holly's is a far from unique case. Earlier this month,
> Glasgow's Royal Hospital for Sick Children reported a 12-year-old girl
> with a severe form of rickets.
>
> Her parents, 'well-known figures in Glasgow's vegan community', had
> unwittingly starved her of necessary nutrients found in fish and meat,
> causing her to develop the bone-wasting disease usually associated
> with 19thcentury slums.
>
> A Trading Standards study into nursery food recently found that many
> nurseries were feeding toddlers a diet too high in fruit and
> vegetables, and too low in calories and fats, putting them at risk of
> nutritional deficiencies.
>
> Health information overload
>
> 'There's so much health information that parents are confused,' says
> the Mail's nutritionist, Jane Clarke.
>
> 'They think it's best to take what they think are "bad things" out of
> their child's diet, but often denying children meat, milk or wheat can
> do more harm than good.'
>
> Jessica Hatfield discovered this for herself when her nine-year-old
> son Max, a previously active, sporty child, became increasingly run
> down. Some days he had no energy at all and couldn't get out of bed.
>
> To Jessica's surprise, her GP referred Max to a child nutritionist. 'I
> couldn't understand it - he'd always eaten so healthily,' she says.
>
> She was even more astonished when the nutritionist said his supposedly
> 'healthy' diet - no carbohydrates and only meat, fish, and salad -
> wasn't giving him enough energy to fuel his active life.
>
> As Judy More, the nutritionist who saw Max, explains: 'Once his diet
> was described to me, it was obvious why he had no energy. Children
> need a constant supply of energy, especially if they're doing sport,
> and the quickest way is carbs.
>
> 'His mother's mistake was to follow a fad diet, hyped up by magazines
> and endorsed by celebrities, to a growing child.'
>
> Furthermore, forcing a child to go dairy-free so young, without
> replacing calcium, also risks giving them bad teeth and poor bone
> growth and osteoporosis. Since bone-building stops in our early 20s,
> weak bones in our teens mean weak bones for life.
>
> Red meat is another worry for parents after a recent World Cancer
> Research Fund report linked processed red meat to cancer.
>
> Some mothers have removed all red meat from their children's diet,
> without replacing its vital iron. This is potentially harmful because
> children need iron for brain development and physical growth.
>
> Too much fibre is another problem created by some fussy parents. Jane
> Clarke recalls: 'A miserable little boy was brought to me with
> constant diarrhoea.
>
> His parents, who were feeding him almost exclusively on bread and
> vegetables, couldn't see what could be wrong. He got better as soon as
> we switched to a lower fibre diet.
>
> 'Because fibre absorbs water, it's like a sponge inside the stomach.
> Since a child's stomach is so small, it's easy for food to fill them
> up before they eat other nutritious foodstuffs such as protein and
> fats, which are essential for energy and helping them grow.'
>
> Too many wholegrains
>
> She says it's important not to give pre-school children in particular
> too much wholegrain food. The irony is that later in life, once free
> of their dietary strictures, these 'healthily' skinny children are at
> risk of obesity, says paediatric health and exercise specialist Dr
> Caroline Dodd, of Northumbria University.
>
> 'An American study found that restricting children's access to snacks
> leads to more snacking later in life.
>
> 'It's particularly true of young girls. By making sweets and crisps
> taboo, they become all the more attractive.'
>
> Everyone agrees the solution is simple: don't treat children as adults
> and subject them to faddy diets or crazy exercise regimes.
>
> Although dieticians are seeing more children harmed by over-fussy
> parents, Jane Clarke is optimistic the numbers will soon decline: 'The
> pseudo-science on ridiculous TV programmes is beginning to be exposed,
> and sensible advice from properly qualified people is beginning to
> prevail.'
>
> For Holly's children, the good news is that their early lack of dairy
> seems to have caused no long-term damage. 'Bertie and Lizzie are now
> the correct size for their age and their rotten milk teeth are being
> replaced by healthy, white ones. I'm so relieved.
>
> 'What I realise now is that the raw food movement is actually a cult -
> these people will do anything to explain away the fact that for some
> people, this diet can have very damaging health consequences.
>
> 'I'm a very maternal person and can't believe I was so misguided as to
> risk my children's health.'
>
> Some names have been changed.




along with the FACTS.


>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...trict-vegan-di...



Rupert 24-06-2008 11:07 PM

Daily Mail: How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
 
On Jun 25, 1:45 am, "Mr.Smartypants" >
wrote:
> On Jun 24, 11:01 pm, Dragonblaze > wrote:
>
>
>
> > How a strict vegan diet made my children ill

>
> > By Angus Watson
> > Last updated at 1:30 PM on 24th June 2008

>
> > Comments (11) Add to My Stories
> > Holly Paige couldn't understand why her children, Bertie, then four,
> > and Lizzie, three, were looking so drawn and skinny, yet their
> > stomachs were full.

>
> > Then when Lizzie smiled at her one day, Holly was horrified to see
> > that her top row of teeth were brown and full of cavities.

>
> > 'I couldn't work out what was going on,' says Holly, who lives in
> > Totnes, Devon. 'We all ate exceptionally healthily, with plenty of
> > vegetables, nuts and seeds.'

>
> > Misguided: Holly Paige with her two children, Bertie (left) and Lizzie

>
> > The problem was that this was all the Paiges ate. They had a strict
> > vegan diet, and ate only raw food.

>
> > From the day they were weaned, Bertie and Lizzie had never eaten meat,
> > fish or dairy foods - except a slice of raw goat's cheese once a
> > month.

>
> > 'I'd heard about the raw food diet through a friend and thought it
> > sounded like a really healthy thing to do,' says Holly, 45.

>
> > 'I was assured by the people who devised the diet that we would get
> > all the protein we needed from nuts and seeds, and we also took a
> > daily supplement to replace the nutrients found in animal foods.

>
> > 'We also ate pulses, grains and soya; I thought we were on the most
> > nutritious diet possible.

>
> > 'But then I started noticing that something wasn't right. The children
> > were wearing clothes two sizes smaller than they should have been. I
> > have two older children and they never had growth problems or tooth
> > decay. Bertie and Lizzie's muscles seemed weak and they had problems
> > seeing at night.

>
> > 'When we went to the supermarket, Lizzie would grab a pack of butter
> > and start gnawing on it. I couldn't understand why this well-fed child
> > was behaving like this. I was so brainwashed that the fact our bodies
> > were craving dairy products had passed me by.'

>
> > Holly referred to a vitamin book, where she discovered the children's
> > symptoms were a sign of serious protein and vitamin D deficiency.

>
> > 'I had let malnutrition in through the back door in the name of
> > health,' she recalls now with horror.

>
> > She immediately introduced dairy into their diet, and says the change
> > in the children's health has been 'remarkable'.

>
> > Alarmingly, Holly's is a far from unique case. Earlier this month,
> > Glasgow's Royal Hospital for Sick Children reported a 12-year-old girl
> > with a severe form of rickets.

>
> > Her parents, 'well-known figures in Glasgow's vegan community', had
> > unwittingly starved her of necessary nutrients found in fish and meat,
> > causing her to develop the bone-wasting disease usually associated
> > with 19thcentury slums.

>
> > A Trading Standards study into nursery food recently found that many
> > nurseries were feeding toddlers a diet too high in fruit and
> > vegetables, and too low in calories and fats, putting them at risk of
> > nutritional deficiencies.

>
> > Health information overload

>
> > 'There's so much health information that parents are confused,' says
> > the Mail's nutritionist, Jane Clarke.

>
> > 'They think it's best to take what they think are "bad things" out of
> > their child's diet, but often denying children meat, milk or wheat can
> > do more harm than good.'

>
> > Jessica Hatfield discovered this for herself when her nine-year-old
> > son Max, a previously active, sporty child, became increasingly run
> > down. Some days he had no energy at all and couldn't get out of bed.

>
> > To Jessica's surprise, her GP referred Max to a child nutritionist. 'I
> > couldn't understand it - he'd always eaten so healthily,' she says.

>
> > She was even more astonished when the nutritionist said his supposedly
> > 'healthy' diet - no carbohydrates and only meat, fish, and salad -
> > wasn't giving him enough energy to fuel his active life.

>
> > As Judy More, the nutritionist who saw Max, explains: 'Once his diet
> > was described to me, it was obvious why he had no energy. Children
> > need a constant supply of energy, especially if they're doing sport,
> > and the quickest way is carbs.

>
> > 'His mother's mistake was to follow a fad diet, hyped up by magazines
> > and endorsed by celebrities, to a growing child.'

>
> > Furthermore, forcing a child to go dairy-free so young, without
> > replacing calcium, also risks giving them bad teeth and poor bone
> > growth and osteoporosis. Since bone-building stops in our early 20s,
> > weak bones in our teens mean weak bones for life.

>
> > Red meat is another worry for parents after a recent World Cancer
> > Research Fund report linked processed red meat to cancer.

>
> > Some mothers have removed all red meat from their children's diet,
> > without replacing its vital iron. This is potentially harmful because
> > children need iron for brain development and physical growth.

>
> > Too much fibre is another problem created by some fussy parents. Jane
> > Clarke recalls: 'A miserable little boy was brought to me with
> > constant diarrhoea.

>
> > His parents, who were feeding him almost exclusively on bread and
> > vegetables, couldn't see what could be wrong. He got better as soon as
> > we switched to a lower fibre diet.

>
> > 'Because fibre absorbs water, it's like a sponge inside the stomach.
> > Since a child's stomach is so small, it's easy for food to fill them
> > up before they eat other nutritious foodstuffs such as protein and
> > fats, which are essential for energy and helping them grow.'

>
> > Too many wholegrains

>
> > She says it's important not to give pre-school children in particular
> > too much wholegrain food. The irony is that later in life, once free
> > of their dietary strictures, these 'healthily' skinny children are at
> > risk of obesity, says paediatric health and exercise specialist Dr
> > Caroline Dodd, of Northumbria University.

>
> > 'An American study found that restricting children's access to snacks
> > leads to more snacking later in life.

>
> > 'It's particularly true of young girls. By making sweets and crisps
> > taboo, they become all the more attractive.'

>
> > Everyone agrees the solution is simple: don't treat children as adults
> > and subject them to faddy diets or crazy exercise regimes.

>
> > Although dieticians are seeing more children harmed by over-fussy
> > parents, Jane Clarke is optimistic the numbers will soon decline: 'The
> > pseudo-science on ridiculous TV programmes is beginning to be exposed,
> > and sensible advice from properly qualified people is beginning to
> > prevail.'

>
> > For Holly's children, the good news is that their early lack of dairy
> > seems to have caused no long-term damage. 'Bertie and Lizzie are now
> > the correct size for their age and their rotten milk teeth are being
> > replaced by healthy, white ones. I'm so relieved.

>
> > 'What I realise now is that the raw food movement is actually a cult -
> > these people will do anything to explain away the fact that for some
> > people, this diet can have very damaging health consequences.

>
> > 'I'm a very maternal person and can't believe I was so misguided as to
> > risk my children's health.'

>
> > Some names have been changed.

>
> along with the FACTS.
>


It's worth noting that these children did not follow a strict vegan
diet; they ate a slice of raw goat's cheese once a month. Hence the
title of the thread is a misnomer. This is perhaps a minor quibble. A
more important point is that this piece of anecdotal evidence about
one family is more relevant to the merits of a raw food vegan diet in
early childhood, than to the merits of a vegan diet in early childhood
per se. Only a small proportion of vegans are raw food vegans. I make
no comment about the appropriateness of a raw food vegan diet in early
childhood; I have no information about that. I linked to a position
paper by the American Dietetic Association which contains a lot of
information about the various vegetarian diets, presumably based on
extensive scientific research. This is not a group with any particular
agenda to push and I assume they will be making a good faith effort to
present a balanced picture. The following quotation is noteworthy:

"Well-planned vegan, lacto-vegetarian, and lacto-ovo-vegetarian diets
are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy
and lactation. Appropriately planned vegan, lacto-vegetarian, and
lacto-ovo-vegetarian diets satisfy nutrient needs of infants,
children, and adolescents and promote normal growth. Vegetarian diets
in childhood and adolescence can aid in the establishment of lifelong
healthy eating patterns and can offer some important nutritional
advantages."

Dragonblaze 25-06-2008 01:11 PM

Daily Mail: How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
 
On 24 Jun, 18:45, "Mr.Smartypants" > wrote:


> > Some names have been changed.

>
> along with the FACTS.


Mind going through the article and pointing out to me what facts the
Dail Mail changed?

Dragonblaze

Rupert 26-06-2008 03:49 AM

Daily Mail: How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
 
On Jun 25, 5:11*am, Dragonblaze > wrote:
> On 24 Jun, 18:45, "Mr.Smartypants" > wrote:
>
> > > Some names have been changed.

>
> > along with the FACTS.

>
> Mind going through the article and pointing out to me what facts the
> Dail Mail changed?
>
> Dragonblaze


It may well be that there are no incorrect factual statements in the
article, but it's not balanced. It's propaganda.

Bringing up a child on a sensibly planned vegan diet is perfectly safe
and most vegan children are perfectly healthy, and indeed are actually
more likely to have healthy eating habits and various health benefits
later in life. Lots of parents feed their children unhealthy non-vegan
diets and seriously damage their health as well. Childhood obesity
from eating junk food such as McDonald's is a much more serious
problem than the health problems experienced by a small number of
vegan children.


SystemX 04-07-2008 01:56 PM

Daily Mail: How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
 
Dragonblaze wrote:
> How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
>

snip

How about the millions of mothers that eat junk food. How many people
now have bad health because of it?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7481026.stm

This would indicate a greater level of child abuse.


Dutch 04-07-2008 07:31 PM

Daily Mail: How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
 
SystemX wrote:
> Dragonblaze wrote:
>> How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
>>

> snip
>
> How about the millions of mothers that eat junk food. How many people
> now have bad health because of it?


Plenty, likely.

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7481026.stm
>
> This would indicate a greater level of child abuse.


Why greater?

SystemX 06-07-2008 10:55 AM

Daily Mail: How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
 
Dutch wrote:
> SystemX wrote:
>> Dragonblaze wrote:
>>> How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
>>>

>> snip
>>
>> How about the millions of mothers that eat junk food. How many people
>> now have bad health because of it?

>
> Plenty, likely.
>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7481026.stm
>>
>> This would indicate a greater level of child abuse.

>
> Why greater?


The OP was about *one* case of a poor (as I'm led to believe from
subsequent posts, non vegan)diet. Whilst these single cases get the
limelight, relatively little gets reported on the *millions* of cases of
poor diet that affect children's health.

Both meat inclusive and vegetarian / vegan diets can be healthy as well
as unhealthy. - I wonder for every one unhealthy vegan diet follower,
how many unhealthy meat inclusive diet followers there are? My guess
would be a number *greater* than one.

Dutch 06-07-2008 10:16 PM

Daily Mail: How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
 
SystemX wrote:
> Dutch wrote:
>> SystemX wrote:
>>> Dragonblaze wrote:
>>>> How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
>>>>
>>> snip
>>>
>>> How about the millions of mothers that eat junk food. How many people
>>> now have bad health because of it?

>>
>> Plenty, likely.
>>
>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7481026.stm
>>>
>>> This would indicate a greater level of child abuse.

>>
>> Why greater?

>
> The OP was about *one* case of a poor (as I'm led to believe from
> subsequent posts, non vegan)diet. Whilst these single cases get the
> limelight, relatively little gets reported on the *millions* of cases of
> poor diet that affect children's health.
>
> Both meat inclusive and vegetarian / vegan diets can be healthy as well
> as unhealthy. - I wonder for every one unhealthy vegan diet follower,
> how many unhealthy meat inclusive diet followers there are? My guess
> would be a number *greater* than one.


Oh, a greater *number of cases*, in that case undoubtedly so. Whenever I
see fat families the term "child abuse" comes to mind.

Dragonblaze 07-07-2008 11:58 AM

Daily Mail: How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
 
On 6 Jul, 10:55, SystemX > wrote:

[snip]

> The OP was about *one* case of a poor (as I'm led to believe from
> subsequent posts, non vegan)diet. Whilst these single cases get the
> limelight, relatively little gets reported on the *millions* of cases of
> poor diet that affect children's health.
>
> Both meat inclusive and vegetarian / vegan diets can be healthy as well
> as unhealthy. - I wonder for every one unhealthy vegan diet follower,
> how many unhealthy meat inclusive diet followers there are? My guess
> would be a number *greater* than one.


Let me remind you that the article criticised _other_ extreme diets as
well, as it mentioned a high meat low carb diet (that would be the
Atkins' Diet, I think), so it was not aimed at vegans alone.

There were actually 2 vegan cases mentioned, the other one being the
kids of the Scottish vegans who developed rickets.

Dragonblaze

Dragonblaze

Dutch 07-07-2008 08:26 PM

Daily Mail: How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
 
Dragonblaze wrote:
> On 6 Jul, 10:55, SystemX > wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> The OP was about *one* case of a poor (as I'm led to believe from
>> subsequent posts, non vegan)diet. Whilst these single cases get the
>> limelight, relatively little gets reported on the *millions* of cases of
>> poor diet that affect children's health.
>>
>> Both meat inclusive and vegetarian / vegan diets can be healthy as well
>> as unhealthy. - I wonder for every one unhealthy vegan diet follower,
>> how many unhealthy meat inclusive diet followers there are? My guess
>> would be a number *greater* than one.

>
> Let me remind you that the article criticised _other_ extreme diets as
> well, as it mentioned a high meat low carb diet (that would be the
> Atkins' Diet, I think), so it was not aimed at vegans alone.
>
> There were actually 2 vegan cases mentioned, the other one being the
> kids of the Scottish vegans who developed rickets.
>
> Dragonblaze



Vegan diets are helped by the fact that a good diet contains a lot of
fruit and vegetables, a LOT of non-vegetarian diets do not.

Salad??? Salad isn't food, salad *comes with* food. :>)

SystemX 07-07-2008 11:51 PM

Daily Mail: How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
 
Dutch wrote:
> SystemX wrote:
>> Dutch wrote:
>>> SystemX wrote:
>>>> Dragonblaze wrote:
>>>>> How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
>>>>>
>>>> snip
>>>>
>>>> How about the millions of mothers that eat junk food. How many
>>>> people now have bad health because of it?
>>>
>>> Plenty, likely.
>>>
>>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7481026.stm
>>>>
>>>> This would indicate a greater level of child abuse.
>>>
>>> Why greater?

>>
>> The OP was about *one* case of a poor (as I'm led to believe from
>> subsequent posts, non vegan)diet. Whilst these single cases get the
>> limelight, relatively little gets reported on the *millions* of cases
>> of poor diet that affect children's health.
>>
>> Both meat inclusive and vegetarian / vegan diets can be healthy as
>> well as unhealthy. - I wonder for every one unhealthy vegan diet
>> follower, how many unhealthy meat inclusive diet followers there are?
>> My guess would be a number *greater* than one.

>
> Oh, a greater *number of cases*, in that case undoubtedly so. Whenever I
> see fat families the term "child abuse" comes to mind.


Me too.

SystemX 08-07-2008 12:04 AM

Daily Mail: How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
 
Dragonblaze wrote:
> On 6 Jul, 10:55, SystemX > wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> The OP was about *one* case of a poor (as I'm led to believe from
>> subsequent posts, non vegan)diet. Whilst these single cases get the
>> limelight, relatively little gets reported on the *millions* of cases of
>> poor diet that affect children's health.
>>
>> Both meat inclusive and vegetarian / vegan diets can be healthy as well
>> as unhealthy. - I wonder for every one unhealthy vegan diet follower,
>> how many unhealthy meat inclusive diet followers there are? My guess
>> would be a number *greater* than one.

>
> Let me remind you that the article criticised _other_ extreme diets as
> well, as it mentioned a high meat low carb diet (that would be the
> Atkins' Diet, I think), so it was not aimed at vegans alone.


An article entitled "How a strict vegan diet made my children ill" is
aimed at vegans.

>
> There were actually 2 vegan cases mentioned, the other one being the
> kids of the Scottish vegans who developed rickets.


We are still talking about single cases, albeit reported together. -
(Rickets can be avoided with sunlight as well as diet.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickets

Do you have children? - Have / do you give them (the opportunity of) the
healthiest diet you can reasonably afford?

>
> Dragonblaze
>
> Dragonblaze


Dragonblaze 09-07-2008 09:22 AM

Daily Mail: How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
 
On 8 Jul, 00:04, SystemX > wrote:

[snip]

> We are still talking about single cases, albeit reported together. -
> (Rickets can be avoided with sunlight as well as diet.)
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rickets
>
> Do you have children? - Have / do you give them (the opportunity of) the
> healthiest diet you can reasonably afford?


No, I'm ChildFree by choice. However, my cat gets the best nutrition
available.

Dragonblaze

Laurie 09-07-2008 12:29 PM

> ... my cat gets the best nutrition available.
 
Dragonblaze wrote:

> ... my cat gets the best nutrition available.

Really? Totally raw animals it can eat with its own physiological
equipment.
One might hope that you could take an enlightened interest in your
own health, and get some experiential insight into the power inherent
in raw diets.
Of course, you erroneous believe that you are an "omnivore", when
that word can not be defined in a fundamental physiological; or
instinctual level.
IF humans are mysterious, undefinable "omnivores", WHY don't little
children INSTINCTIVELY EAT LITTLE ANIMALS?
If you give an infant a rabbit and apple, it will eat the apple and
play with the rabbit. In your pathological mindset, the infant will
eat the rabbit, of course RAW, and play with the apple.
If a two-year-old instinctively knows to eat the apple and play with
the rabbit, WHY DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?
Your own mindless following of your cultural conditioning is leading
to your own detriment.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6180753.stm
The humorous thing about your boundless arrogance is that you can not
admit the fact that ALL species on this little mudball EVOLVED on a
TOTALLY RAW DIET, and all still do, except for the sickest species on
the planet: humans.
You imply that humans have "adapted" to cooked food and animal
-eating, but there is not one scrap of information in contemporary
evolution literature that suggests that ANY animal can "adapt" to a
diet chemically different than that species' natural one.
Here is one explanation of why the meatarians here can't function,
intellectually.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6180753.stm
You maintain the false 'omnivore' dogma, but you can NOT present any
rational, scientifically-credible argument that even suggests that
humans are "omnivores"; you can not even present a definition based
on physiology, anatomy, and biochemistry.
http://ecologos.org/omni.htm
http://ecologos.org/anatomy.htm
You claim that humans "adapted" to the current, cooked cultural diets
around the planet; however, there is NO attempt in current evolutionary
theory that presents a credible mechanism for such false "adaptation".

You can't even try to engage with me in polite academic discussion,
because you are afraid of me, just like Jon-a-thug noBalls, Dutch,
dh, and the rest of the pathological, intentionally-disruptive trolling
buffoons, here.
Not a one of you can design a meaningful argument to support your
mindless meatarian dogma constantly expounded in public.
You are all gutless, evasive, intellectual frauds.
You, collectively, are embarrassments to the human species.

Laurie

"Ignorance and arrogance pave the road to self-destruction." -- LauFo

--
Scientifically-credible info on plant-based human diets:
http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html
news:alt.food.vegan.science

Laurie 09-07-2008 12:38 PM

lies about a strict vegan diet ...
 
Dragonblaze wrote:

> Let me remind you that the article criticised _other_ extreme diets
> as well, ...

Well, let's try to think a bit here, kiddies. OK?
Only ONE species on this planet sets its food on fire before eating
it, and that species is the sickest on the planet. Only the
cooked-food species develops "degenerative diseases", or indeed any
significant "disease"compared with the human ape..
So, which diet is the "extreme" one? Can you follow the logic, kiddies?

> There were actually 2 vegan cases mentioned, ...

Only TWO from a population of millions of vegans, worldwide.
Sounds like pretty good adds, to me.

Laurie
--
Scientifically-credible info on plant-based human diets:
http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html
news:alt.food.vegan.science

david 09-07-2008 01:31 PM

> ... my cat gets the best nutrition available.
 
On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 07:29:22 -0400, Laurie > wrote:

>Dragonblaze wrote:
>
>> ... my cat gets the best nutrition available.

> Really? Totally raw animals it can eat with its own physiological
>equipment.


I gave my cat a white mouse once. After I bought it and was on
the way home I started to feel like maybe I shouldn't, because she
might torture it and all that like she did with animals she would catch
and bring in. I was surprised to see that she didn't play around with
it at all. I dropped it on the floor, and she killed it and ate it on the
spot like I'd given her a bowl of food.

> One might hope that you could take an enlightened interest in your
>own health, and get some experiential insight into the power inherent
>in raw diets.


Slow down a little. A person might want to start with rare beef,
and you don't ever want to eat raw or even rare chicken or pork...

Ron Hamilton 09-07-2008 03:55 PM

lies about a strict vegan diet ...
 
larry forti, FAILED engineer, lied:

> Dragonblaze wrote:
>
>> Let me remind you that the article criticised _other_ extreme diets
>> as well, ...

> Well, let's try to think a bit here, kiddies. OK?
> Only ONE species on this planet sets its food on fire before eating
> it,


False. Cooking is not "setting its food on fire".


> Only the
> cooked-food species develops "degenerative diseases",


Bullshit.



larry forti is not an expert on nutrition or anything else. He is a
FAILED engineer, and he openly conducts internet-based swindles.

Jerry[_4_] 10-07-2008 01:43 AM

Daily Mail: How a strict vegan diet made my children ill
 
USDA's Standard Reference, version 20 (sr20.zip) contains data for
7500 foods and 140 nutrients.

There are nutrition programs that use this data.
http://nutritionsoftware.org/general-nutrition

Plus some in the GNU/Linux world.
http://freshmeat.net/search/?q=usda&...&Go.x=0&Go.y=0

You probably can guess which is my favorite.
With dmak you can access directly or indirectly (via internet
functions) probably most of the information known to man about 7500
foods and 140 nutrients.

So if a story comes up about a dietary disaster, you probably can run
the diet thru dmak (or similar program) and find out why it's a
disaster and you probably can correct the problem.

Dragonblaze 10-07-2008 09:18 AM

> ... my cat gets the best nutrition available.
 
On 9 Jul, 12:29, Laurie > wrote:

[snip incoherent ranting]

> * * * * You imply that humans have "adapted" to cooked food and animal
> -eating, but there is not one scrap of information in contemporary
> evolution literature that suggests that ANY animal can "adapt" to a
> diet chemically different than that species' natural one.


The above claim simply shows a) you do not keep up with research b)
have no clue about adaptation.

> * * * * Here is one explanation of why the meatarians here can't function,
> intellectually.http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6180753.stm
> * * * * You maintain the false 'omnivore' dogma, but you can NOT present any
> rational, scientifically-credible argument that even suggests that
> humans are "omnivores"; you can not even present a definition based
> on physiology, anatomy, and biochemistry.http://ecologos.org/omni.htmhttp://e...rg/anatomy.htm
> * * * * You claim that humans "adapted" to the current, cooked cultural diets
> around the planet; however, there is NO attempt in current evolutionary
> theory that presents a credible mechanism for such false "adaptation".


Free clue: natural selection. Capisce?

> * * * * You can't even try to engage with me in polite academic discussion,
> because you are afraid *of me, just like Jon-a-thug noBalls, Dutch,
> dh, and the rest of the pathological, intentionally-disruptive trolling
> buffoons, here.


You have no science to argue, as evidenced by your belief that the
China Study is scientific. I habitually refuse to debate faith-based
crackpots, since there is no way I can ever convince a crackpot - and
you're on the level of me trying to debate cosmology with a
Hörbigerite or a Velikovskian.

> Scientifically-credible info on plant-based human diets:http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html
> news:alt.food.vegan.science


Get rid of that .sig before I report you to Trading Standards for
false advertisment claims.

Dragonblaze

Dragonblaze 10-07-2008 09:20 AM

lies about a strict vegan diet ...
 
On 9 Jul, 12:38, Laurie > wrote:
> Dragonblaze wrote:
> > Let me remind you that the article criticised _other_ extreme diets
> > *as well, ...

>
> * * * * Well, let's try to think a bit here, kiddies. *OK?
> * * * * Only ONE species on this planet sets its food on fire before eating
> it, and that species is the sickest on the planet. *Only the
> cooked-food species develops "degenerative diseases", or indeed any
> significant "disease"compared with the human ape..


********. Any mammal that lives long enough can develop those - ask
ANY vet. Most wild animals do not as they die too young to develop
them. For one example, the average age of a fox in wild is 2 years. In
captivity it is 16 years.

But then, facts never cramped your style, did they?

Dragonblaze

Dragonblaze 10-07-2008 09:22 AM

> ... my cat gets the best nutrition available.
 
On 9 Jul, 13:31, David <dh@.> wrote:

[snip]

> * * Slow down a little. A person might want to start with rare beef,
> and you don't ever want to eat raw or even rare chicken or pork...


I usually have my steak blue-cooked and have been known to enjoy raw
beef. *grin*

Dragonblaze

Laurie 21-07-2008 01:36 PM

lies about a strict vegan diet ...
 

> ... began to notice that people from ... with greater numbers with

vitamin b12
problems.
Irrelevant; B-12 produced by soil cyanobacteria bacteria was absorbed
INTO the plants UNTIL toxic fertilizers killed off the soil bacteria
which synthesized the B-12. Insufficient B-12 in plant foods is NOW
caused by agricultural chemistry.
http://ecologos.org/B-12.htm

> selective pressure for the uricase enzyme gene over ~35 million yrs
> ago and do not need meat to this day.

There is NO scientifically-credible “need” for humans to consume
animals, and the health-destroying results of this cultural perversion
are well documented in the epidemiology.
http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html#meat

> Do a Pubmed search to see if H. Sapiens adapted to eat any amount of
> meat over any amount of available fruit.

There is NO known mechanism by which ANY animal species can “adapt”
to a diet other than the one with appropriate biochemistry programmed
by its genetic code. People who claim that humans “adapted” to
consume animal flesh have the responsibility to support their claims
with credible science, yet they never do, because there is no evidence
that any adapting ever occurred. The current public health statistics
prove this.
TCCampbell; The China Study
http://tinyurl.com/2v689m
video
http://tinyurl.com/6lcda6

>> They sometimes allow meat
>> to ferment as it produces a similar effect as cooking by beginning to
>> break down proteins for taste and ease of digestion reasons.

http://ecologos.org/beaver.htm

Laurie
--
Scientifically-credible info on plant-based human diets:
http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html
news:alt.food.vegan.science

[email protected] 21-07-2008 08:11 PM

lies about a strict vegan diet ...
 
> ... began to notice that people from ... with greater numbers with
vitamin b12
problems.
Irrelevant; B-12 produced by soil cyanobacteria bacteria was
absorbed
INTO the plants UNTIL toxic fertilizers killed off the soil bacteria
which synthesized the B-12. Insufficient B-12 in plant foods is NOW
caused by agricultural chemistry.

Irrelevant, you want to steer discussion don't you.

The folk in question were free of vitamin b12 problems in their country
because they consumed larger amounts of animal parts in their basic food
supply.

As it happens, the traditional fertilizers of their country are human aand
animal waste.

The point was that there is no strict vegan diet in any country. Evenif
minor, all eat animal parts and in the example given they were a source of
a vital vitamin.

[email protected] 21-07-2008 10:38 PM

> ... my cat gets the best nutrition available.
 
On Jul 9, 7:29*am, Laurie > wrote:
> Dragonblaze wrote:
> > ... *my cat gets the best nutrition available.

>
> * * * * Really? *Totally raw animals it can eat with its own physiological
> equipment.
> * * * * One might hope that you could take an enlightened interest in your
> own health, and get some experiential insight into the power inherent
> in raw diets.
> * * * * Of course, you erroneous believe that you are an "omnivore", when
> that word can not be defined in a fundamental physiological; or
> instinctual level.
> * * * * IF humans are mysterious, undefinable "omnivores", WHY don't little
> children INSTINCTIVELY EAT LITTLE ANIMALS?
> * * * * If you give an infant a rabbit and apple, it will eat the apple and
> play with the rabbit. *In your pathological mindset, the infant will
> eat the rabbit, of course RAW, and play with the apple.
> * * * * If a two-year-old instinctively knows to eat the apple and play with
> the rabbit, WHY DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND THIS? * * *
> * * * * Your own mindless following of your cultural conditioning is leading
> to your own detriment.http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6180753.stm
> * * * * The humorous thing about your boundless arrogance is that you can not
> admit the fact that ALL species on this little mudball EVOLVED on a
> TOTALLY RAW DIET, and all still do, except for the sickest species on
> the planet: humans.
> * * * * You imply that humans have "adapted" to cooked food and animal
> -eating, but there is not one scrap of information in contemporary
> evolution literature that suggests that ANY animal can "adapt" to a
> diet chemically different than that species' natural one.
> * * * * Here is one explanation of why the meatarians here can't function,
> intellectually.http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6180753.stm
> * * * * You maintain the false 'omnivore' dogma, but you can NOT present any
> rational, scientifically-credible argument that even suggests that
> humans are "omnivores"; you can not even present a definition based
> on physiology, anatomy, and biochemistry.http://ecologos.org/omni.htmhttp://e...rg/anatomy.htm
> * * * * You claim that humans "adapted" to the current, cooked cultural diets
> around the planet; however, there is NO attempt in current evolutionary
> theory that presents a credible mechanism for such false "adaptation".
>
> * * * * You can't even try to engage with me in polite academic discussion,
> because you are afraid *of me, just like Jon-a-thug noBalls, Dutch,
> dh, and the rest of the pathological, intentionally-disruptive trolling
> buffoons, here.
> * * * * Not a one of you can design a meaningful argument to support your
> mindless meatarian dogma constantly expounded in public.
> * * * * You are all gutless, evasive, intellectual frauds.
> * * * * You, collectively, are embarrassments to the human species.
>
> * * * * Laurie
>
> "Ignorance and arrogance pave the road to self-destruction." *-- LauFo
>
> --
> Scientifically-credible info on plant-based human diets:http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html
> news:alt.food.vegan.science


Perhaps in a tribe-in-the-Amazon setting, if you gave a child a grub
and a piece of fruit it just may very well go for the grub. The rabbit
analogy was not a good one. To much processing required to eat the
rabbit. Humans ancestors such as homo habilis were scavengers that ate
prey that had been previously killed. They didn't have the technology
to do the job themselves.


Laurie 03-08-2008 04:50 PM

lies about a strict vegan diet ...
 
wrote:

> The folk in question were free of vitamin b12 problems in their country
> because they consumed larger amounts of animal parts in their basic food
> supply.

How "large", provide real data.

> As it happens, the traditional fertilizers of their country are human aand
> animal waste.
> The point was that there is no strict vegan diet in any country.

False conclusion based on the error assuming ALL countries use animal
dung.
Please provide credible references to support your claims.

Laurie
--
Scientifically-credible info on plant-based human diets:
http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html
news:alt.food.vegan.science

Laurie 03-08-2008 05:26 PM

> ... my cat gets the best nutrition available.
 
wrote:
PLEASE STOP wasting system resources by Top Posting.

> The rabbit analogy was not a good one. To much processing required
> to eat the rabbit.

Silly juvenile evasion.
The point IS that eating a rabbit RAW is the way ALL natural
'omnivores' eat their flesh; too subtle?

> Humans ancestors such as homo habilis were scavengers that ate prey
> that had been previously killed.

That is anthro-apologist fantasy.
http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html#a

YOU eat a fresh piece of road kill that has been ripening for a couple
of days in the sunshine and report back here how you faired.
Have you ever tried thinking? Highly recommended.

> They didn't have the technology to do the job themselves.

Doesn't "TECHNOLOGY" clearly indicate that humans are NOT NATURAL
flesh-eaters? Why not? HINT: This is related to "thinking".

Laurie


[email protected] 03-08-2008 05:35 PM

lies about a strict vegan diet ...
 
> The folk in question were free of vitamin b12 problems in their country
> because they consumed larger amounts of animal parts in their basic food
> supply.

How "large", provide real data.

> As it happens, the traditional fertilizers of their country are human

aand
> animal waste.
> The point was that there is no strict vegan diet in any country.


" False conclusion based on the error assuming ALL countries use animal
dung." " Please provide credible references to support your claims."

Poor reading as the consumption of animal parts in their grains and
legumes etc. was a large part of their vitamin12 needs. As these people
came from s. asia the use of animal dung is a routine practice. That
includes human dung, we too are animals.

As I said to another, I do not make idle posts of information, especially
that information so easily found in general circulation as the above. I
will not play citation onupmanship, that sandbox finds no charm for me.
If someone wants general search enjine pointers that is another matter.

If someone wants to have a learned discussion of some topic, fine.
Scoring ego points is a waste of time. This is not a science journal and
needing to play junior scientist speaks more of the onedemanding such
status one thinks.

[email protected] 03-08-2008 06:19 PM

> ... my cat gets the best nutrition available.
 
> Humans ancestors such as homo habilis were scavengers that ate prey
> that had been previously killed.

" That is anthro-apologist fantasy."

There is hard archaeological evidence that prehumans were consuming larger
animals at least 1 million years ago. Consumption of smaller animals and
of dead by other means animals is a valid assumption before that time.


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