Vegan (alt.food.vegan) This newsgroup exists to share ideas and issues of concern among vegans. We are always happy to share our recipes- perhaps especially with omnivores who are simply curious- or even better, accomodating a vegan guest for a meal!

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  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 21-03-2008, 09:01 AM posted to uk.business.agriculture,alt.food.vegan,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,rec.food.veg,uk.environment.conservation,uk.rec.birdwatching,uk.rec.gardening,uk.current-events.bird-flu
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Default Eat less meat

On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 08:30:29 -0000, "Buddenbrooks"
wrote:


"Oz" wrote in message
...

Also to note that all decaying plant matter emits methane, remember the
fuss when they recently discovered vast amounts were being emitted by
topsoils worldwide.



In an area of Salisbury which had a building estate using an ex-city dump
there was a sudden need to dig holes to release gas safely. The dump had
been disused for decades and had been deemed inactive.

I find it astonishing that it is accepted that a super-computer is needed
to inaccurately predict weather and yet "obvious aint it" is applied to the
global warming problem.

It will be interesting to see what the coming credit crunch driven downturn
in the economy does to people's views as jobs disappear and people realize
that
keeping the worlds economy going and reducing emissions is not going to be
easy.


You are sort of missing the point. The global economy as we know it is
completely unsustainable, wasteful and destructive short cut to
destruction. The sooner we get rid of the idiocy of a material society
the better.

Then of course everything else will fall in to place.

Anyone who thinks we can carry on as we are is living in cuckoo land.

  #32 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 21-03-2008, 10:48 AM posted to uk.business.agriculture,alt.food.vegan,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,rec.food.veg,uk.environment.conservation,uk.rec.birdwatching,uk.rec.gardening,uk.current-events.bird-flu
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Default Eat less meat

On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 10:58:04 -0700 (PDT), Buxqi
wrote:

On 20 Mar, 16:21, Old Codger wrote:
Tom Withycombe wrote:

I'm obviously suffering from mental constipation but could someone
enlighten me as to what this rubbish has to do with a ng dedicated to
British birdwatching?


Nothing at all Tom, just as it has little relevance to many of the
groups to which it is cross posted.


Of course the problem could be alleviated if everyone replying
to the guy removed all the irrelevant groups from the cross-post
first.


That requires aptitude and common sense. Something the troll netkops
don't possess.

*However, Pete is so desperate for
attention that he always cross posts to at least six groups.


Why does he post to small groups instead of large ones if
that is his motivation?


Education for all I should imagine.

*In
addition, he frequently nymshifts in attempts to avoid the kill filters.


If they don't want to read his posts he should respect that...


That's a bit like saying a newspaper should be tailored to individual
wants. Nonsense. Most of the netkops just want comics and dirty
magazines to read. In Brian's (Old Codger from Bicknacre in Essex)
case he just wants dirty magazines portraying bestiality subjects.

The simple fact is if you don't want to read something then DON'T, but
please don't proceed and feel the world needs to know about your
decision.

We simply don't care.

By all means discuss this in the fullest possible detail in the vegan, veggie, environmentally aware landfill sites,
methane and related gases and such focussed groups but please don't dump
this rubbish in the British birdwatching group. After all you have
around 60,000 other newsgroups to choose.


Every one should be aware of the problem the planet faces. Even if you
are sad twitcher who likes to hide away in dark bushes pretending to
look for birds but usually just peeping toms!


  #33 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 21-03-2008, 10:51 AM posted to uk.business.agriculture,alt.food.vegan,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,rec.food.veg,uk.environment.conservation,uk.rec.birdwatching,uk.rec.gardening,uk.current-events.bird-flu
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Default Eat less meat

On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 12:37:08 +0000, Dave J.
wrote:

In on Wed, 19 Mar 2008
15:52:34 +0000, in uk.current-events.bird-flu, 'Oz' wrote:

Meat is (I believe) an inefficient use of resources in the production of
food. It also has a vast (and compared to decaying plant matter unavoidable)
amount of methane as a byproduct.


That depends. If you are talking about most of upland britain, its
impossible to grow arable crops there so the ONLY resource is grazing by
livestock. In this case of course its NOT an inefficient use of
resources.


Yes, that makes a good justification for minor meat consumption. Though
not for the American style gullet stuffing that's threatening to infect
the globe.

Also to note that all decaying plant matter emits methane, remember the
fuss when they recently discovered vast amounts were being emitted by
topsoils worldwide.


I've always figured though that the emissions from decaying vegetable
matter are more easily either controlled, reduced, or harnessed for
burning than those from animals.

Make no mistake, I'm in no way an advocate of humanity turning vegetarian,
I just see both sides of the debate and accept that we're swinging too far
into rain forest destroying hamburger-gulping greed that caries a massive,
almost karmic, future health cost.


Forget the future, it's here already.
  #34 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 21-03-2008, 10:52 AM posted to alt.food.vegan,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,rec.food.veg,uk.environment.conservation,uk.rec.birdwatching,uk.rec.gardening,uk.business.agriculture,uk.current-events.bird-flu
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Default Eat less meat

On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 12:23:07 +0000, Dave J.
wrote:

In on Wed, 19 Mar 2008 15:37:52
-0000, in uk.current-events.bird-flu, 'pearl' wrote:

I speak BTW as a lifelong carnivore. The nearest I come to vegetarianism
is a vague effort to keep my meat consumption down to what I consider to
be the optimum minimal level that (again as I consider it) gives the
maximum yield in terms of bodily benefits.


'There appears to be no threshold of plant-food enrichment or
minimization of fat intake beyond which further disease prevention
does not occur. These findings suggest that even small intakes of
foods of animal origin are associated with significant increases in
plasma cholesterol concentrations, which are associated, in turn,
with significant increases in chronic degenerative disease mortality
rates. - Campbell TC, Junshi C. Diet and chronic degenerative
diseases: perspectives from China. Am J Clin Nutr 1994 May;59
(5 Suppl):1153S-1161S.'

'Analyses of data from the China studies by his collaborators and
others, Campbell told the epidemiology symposium, is leading to
policy recommendations. He mentioned three:

* The greater the variety of plant-based foods in the diet, the greater
the benefit. Variety insures broader coverage of known and unknown
nutrient needs.

* Provided there is plant food variety, quality and quantity, a healthful
and nutritionally complete diet can be attained without animal-based
food.

* The closer the food is to its native state - with minimal hea



Hmm, fair enough I suppose, though I'm suspicious of any hidden motivation
behind the study. I've always figured that meat provides useful amino
chunks that are less easy to find in a vegetarian diet, with the
undesirable fats being a cost that should be kept to a minimum.

If the study holds water over the years then I suppose I'll just have to
give in and own up to having some meat because a) I like it and b) I'm too
lazy to organise a balanced vegetarian intake.


You need a balanced diet regardless preference for lazy foods.
  #35 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 21-03-2008, 11:32 AM posted to uk.business.agriculture,alt.food.vegan,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,rec.food.veg,uk.environment.conservation,uk.rec.birdwatching,uk.rec.gardening,uk.current-events.bird-flu
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Default Eat less meat

"Old Codger" wrote in message ...
On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 10:58:04 -0700 (PDT), Buxqi
wrote:


By all means discuss this in the fullest possible detail in the vegan, veggie, environmentally aware landfill sites,
methane and related gases and such focussed groups but please don't dump
this rubbish in the British birdwatching group. After all you have
around 60,000 other newsgroups to choose.


Every one should be aware of the problem the planet faces.


"Cautious, careful people, always casting about to maintain their reputation
and social standing, never can bring about reform. Those who are really in
earnest must be willing to be anything or nothing in the world's estimation."
- Susan B. Anthony




  #36 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 21-03-2008, 11:38 AM posted to uk.business.agriculture,alt.food.vegan,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,rec.food.veg,uk.environment.conservation,uk.rec.birdwatching,uk.rec.gardening,uk.current-events.bird-flu
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Default Eat less meat

On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 11:32:33 -0000, "pearl"
wrote:

"Old Codger" wrote in message ...
On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 10:58:04 -0700 (PDT), Buxqi
wrote:


By all means discuss this in the fullest possible detail in the vegan, veggie, environmentally aware landfill sites,
methane and related gases and such focussed groups but please don't dump
this rubbish in the British birdwatching group. After all you have
around 60,000 other newsgroups to choose.


Every one should be aware of the problem the planet faces.


"Cautious, careful people, always casting about to maintain their reputation
and social standing, never can bring about reform. Those who are really in
earnest must be willing to be anything or nothing in the world's estimation."
- Susan B. Anthony


It would appear to some even in this day and age that ignorance is
bliss!

Bird watchers are fine but the twitchers are a weird bunch indeed.
Mores the pity.
  #37 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 21-03-2008, 11:58 AM posted to uk.business.agriculture,alt.food.vegan,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,rec.food.veg,uk.environment.conservation,uk.rec.birdwatching,uk.rec.gardening,uk.current-events.bird-flu
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Default Eat less meat

"( _ /)" wrote in message ...
On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 08:30:29 -0000, "Buddenbrooks"
wrote:


It will be interesting to see what the coming credit crunch driven downturn
in the economy does to people's views as jobs disappear and people realize that
keeping the worlds economy going and reducing emissions is not going to be
easy.


You are sort of missing the point. The global economy as we know it is
completely unsustainable, wasteful and destructive short cut to
destruction. The sooner we get rid of the idiocy of a material society
the better.

Then of course everything else will fall in to place.


'Enlightened Agriculture

"Cautious, careful people, always casting about to maintain their reputation
and social standing, never can bring about reform. Those who are really in
earnest must be willing to be anything or nothing in the world's estimation."
Susan B. Anthony

'Crisis and opportunity in North American agriculture' John Ikerd
Emeritus professor of agricultural economics at the University of
Missouri

[extracts only, as selected by nlpwessex - original article presented at
a farm conference, "Recapturing Wealth on the Canadian Prairies,"
Brandon, Manitoba, October 26-27, 2000 - full copy available at
http://www.cropchoice.com/leadstry.asp?recid=376 ]

......In essence, as agriculture moves from competitive capitalism to
corporatism, it changes from a market economy to "central planned"
economy. Central planning didn't work for the Communists, and it won't
work for the corporations. The problem wasn't that the Communists
weren't smart enough or that their computers weren't large enough.
Central planning is a fundamentally wrong-headed approach to managing
an economy - for corporations as well as governments. The corporate
system of food production will prove to be fundamentally incapable of
meeting the needs of the people. Its emergence as the dominant system,
therefore, represents a prime opportunity for an alternative to corporate
central planning, to create an agriculture that will truly meet the needs of
the people of an enlightened society.

As society becomes more enlightened, we are beginning to realize that
we are destroying our natural environment in the process of trying to
produce cheap food. We are mining the soil through erosion and
depletion of its natural product in the process of maximizing production
and minimizing dollar and cent costs of production. We are polluting
our streams and groundwater with residues from the pesticides and
commercial fertilizers necessary for large-scale, specialized industrial
crop production and with wastes from giant confinement animal feeding
factories. We are destroying the genetic diversity, both below and
above the soil that is necessary to support nature's means of capturing
and transforming solar energy into energy for human bodies.

As society becomes more enlightened, we are beginning to realize that
we are destroying the social fabric of society in the process of trying
to make agriculture more efficient. We are destroying opportunities for
people to lead productive, successful lives. We are turning thinking,
innovative, creative farmers into tractor drivers and hog house janitors.
There is dignity in all types of work, but all people should have
opportunities to express their full human potential. Consolidation of
decision making concentrates the opportunities among the privileged
few while leaving the many without hope for a rewarding future.
Industrial specialization also tends to separate people within families,
within communities, and within nations. We are just beginning to
realize that industrialization destroys the human relationships needed
to support a civilized society. The outdated economics that supports
agricultural industrialization is fundamentally incapable of dealing
effectively with either the environmental or social challenges of today.
In economics, the environment and society are external or outside of
the decision making process - something that may impact or be
impacted by decisions but not part of the process. In reality, the
economy, environment, and society all are parts of the same inseparable
whole. Society needs a more enlightened system of decision-making -
one capable of integrating economic, ecological, and social decisions.
We need a "new" approach to farming in North America..... (....)

Pursuit of self-interests is an inherent aspect of being human. But,
people, by nature, do not pursue only their narrow, individual or
personal self-interest. It's also within the inherent nature of people to
care about other people and to care of the earth. People are perfectly
capable of rising above selfishness and greed to pursue a higher
concept of self-interest - a self-interest that values relationships with
other people and stewardship of the earth as important dimensions
of one's self-interests.

This higher self-interest includes our narrow self-interest (personal,
individual concerns), but it also includes interests that we share with
others (relationship, community, and social concerns) and interests
that are purely altruistic (ethics and moral concerns). All three
contribute to our well being or quality of life. Each contributes to a
higher sense of quality of life - explicitly recognizing that each of us
individually is but a part of the whole of society, which in turn must
conform to some higher order or code of natural law....

.....Admittedly, the new American farm will require a lot more knowledge,
understanding, and thinking than does farming by industrial methods.
However, any future occupation offering an opportunity for a decent
living will require people to use their minds. The days when someone
could earn a good living by the sweat of their brow are in the past.
There will be plenty of innovative, creative, hard working people to
operate the new American farms, once the real possibility for a more
desirable quality of life in farming - economically, socially, and ethically -
becomes widely known....

.....We, the people, currently control everything that needs to be changed
in order to build a more sustainable, higher quality of life, as individuals
as well as for society as a whole. The economy is a creation of people -
it is not some sacred, unchangeable set of natural laws. People created
the current economic system and people can change it. The corporation
does not exist by some right or some decree from God. People created
corporations and they exist at the discretion of people. Each corporation
has a charter, which once obligated it to operate for the good of the public.
We the people can revoke those charters, even if we have to amend the
constitution to do it. We can control or abolish corporatism and we can
shape our economy to meet the needs of people....

One by one, as we find the courage to demand something better, we will
change the world for the better. Susan B. Anthony, the champion of
voting rights for women in the US once said, "Cautious, careful people,
always casting about to maintain their reputation and social standing,
never can bring about reform. Those who are really in earnest must be
willing to be anything or nothing in the world's estimation." It takes
courage to bring about change. But Margaret Mead, an award winning
cultural anthropologist, once said, "Never doubt that a small group of
thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world, indeed it's the only
thing that ever has." As each of us finds the courage to change our
selves and to influence our little piece of the world, we can change the
world. Indeed, this is the only thing that ever can.

John Ikerd can be reached at [..]
Full article at: http://www.cropchoice.com/leadstry.asp?recid=376

1999 University of Missouri Report to the US National Farmers Union,
'CONSOLIDATION IN THE FOOD AND AGRICULTURE SYSTEM'
- pdf format http://www.nfu.org/images/heffernan_1999.pdf
[extract below]

".....to understand the global food system, one must understand the
operations of the major global firms such as Cargill, ADM, and ConAgra http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex...ents/scats.htm .
.....Today
the system is becoming much more complex starting with involvement in
biotechnology, extending through production, and ending with highly
processed food. Increasingly, these firms are developing a variety of
different alliances with other players in the system..... We will use the
concept 'cluster of firms' to represent these new economic arrangements.

......In a food chain cluster, the food product is passed along from stage
to stage, but ownership never changes and neither does the location of
the decision-making. Starting with the intellectual property rights that
governments give to the biotechnology firms, the food product always
remains the property of a firm or cluster of firms. The farmer becomes
a grower, providing the labor and often some of the capital, but never
owning the product as it moves through the food system and never
making the major management decisions."

'CONSOLIDATION IN FOOD RETAILING AND DAIRY:
Implications for Farmers and Consumers in a Global Food System',
Report to National Farmers Union, Jan 2001, University of Missouri
http://www.nfu.org/index.cfm?categor...e=issues&id=67

UK farmers being led to US-style GM slavery
http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex...dSainsbury.htm

"Farmers will be given just enough to keep them interested in growing
the crops, but no more. And GM companies and food processors,
will say very clearly how they want the growers to grow the crops."
Friedrich Vogel, head of BASF's crop protection business
(Farmers Weekly 6 November 1998)

Disease and pestilence hits Missouri as GM soy expands
http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex...risoybeans.htm
...
http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex...griculture.htm


  #38 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 21-03-2008, 12:03 PM posted to uk.business.agriculture,alt.food.vegan,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,rec.food.veg,uk.environment.conservation,uk.rec.birdwatching,uk.rec.gardening,uk.current-events.bird-flu
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Posts: 94
Default Eat less meat


"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Old Codger" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 10:58:04 -0700 (PDT), Buxqi
wrote:


By all means discuss this in the fullest possible detail in the
vegan, veggie, environmentally aware landfill sites,
methane and related gases and such focussed groups but please don't
dump
this rubbish in the British birdwatching group. After all you have
around 60,000 other newsgroups to choose.


Every one should be aware of the problem the planet faces.


"Cautious, careful people, always casting about to maintain their
reputation
and social standing, never can bring about reform. Those who are really
in
earnest must be willing to be anything or nothing in the world's
estimation."
- Susan B. Anthony


posted by someone who won;'t eat meat this is nicely ironic

Jim Webster




  #39 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 21-03-2008, 12:24 PM posted to uk.business.agriculture,alt.food.vegan,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,rec.food.veg,uk.environment.conservation,uk.rec.birdwatching,uk.rec.gardening,uk.current-events.bird-flu
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 18
Default Eat less meat

On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 11:58:31 -0000, "pearl"
wrote:

"( _ /)" wrote in message ...
On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 08:30:29 -0000, "Buddenbrooks"
wrote:


It will be interesting to see what the coming credit crunch driven downturn
in the economy does to people's views as jobs disappear and people realize that
keeping the worlds economy going and reducing emissions is not going to be
easy.


You are sort of missing the point. The global economy as we know it is
completely unsustainable, wasteful and destructive short cut to
destruction. The sooner we get rid of the idiocy of a material society
the better.

Then of course everything else will fall in to place.


'Enlightened Agriculture

"Cautious, careful people, always casting about to maintain their reputation
and social standing, never can bring about reform. Those who are really in
earnest must be willing to be anything or nothing in the world's estimation."
Susan B. Anthony

'Crisis and opportunity in North American agriculture' John Ikerd
Emeritus professor of agricultural economics at the University of
Missouri

[extracts only, as selected by nlpwessex - original article presented at
a farm conference, "Recapturing Wealth on the Canadian Prairies,"
Brandon, Manitoba, October 26-27, 2000 - full copy available at
http://www.cropchoice.com/leadstry.asp?recid=376 ]

......In essence, as agriculture moves from competitive capitalism to
corporatism, it changes from a market economy to "central planned"
economy. Central planning didn't work for the Communists, and it won't
work for the corporations. The problem wasn't that the Communists
weren't smart enough or that their computers weren't large enough.
Central planning is a fundamentally wrong-headed approach to managing
an economy - for corporations as well as governments. The corporate
system of food production will prove to be fundamentally incapable of
meeting the needs of the people. Its emergence as the dominant system,
therefore, represents a prime opportunity for an alternative to corporate
central planning, to create an agriculture that will truly meet the needs of
the people of an enlightened society.

As society becomes more enlightened, we are beginning to realize that
we are destroying our natural environment in the process of trying to
produce cheap food. We are mining the soil through erosion and
depletion of its natural product in the process of maximizing production
and minimizing dollar and cent costs of production. We are polluting
our streams and groundwater with residues from the pesticides and
commercial fertilizers necessary for large-scale, specialized industrial
crop production and with wastes from giant confinement animal feeding
factories. We are destroying the genetic diversity, both below and
above the soil that is necessary to support nature's means of capturing
and transforming solar energy into energy for human bodies.

As society becomes more enlightened, we are beginning to realize that
we are destroying the social fabric of society in the process of trying
to make agriculture more efficient. We are destroying opportunities for
people to lead productive, successful lives. We are turning thinking,
innovative, creative farmers into tractor drivers and hog house janitors.
There is dignity in all types of work, but all people should have
opportunities to express their full human potential. Consolidation of
decision making concentrates the opportunities among the privileged
few while leaving the many without hope for a rewarding future.
Industrial specialization also tends to separate people within families,
within communities, and within nations. We are just beginning to
realize that industrialization destroys the human relationships needed
to support a civilized society. The outdated economics that supports
agricultural industrialization is fundamentally incapable of dealing
effectively with either the environmental or social challenges of today.
In economics, the environment and society are external or outside of
the decision making process - something that may impact or be
impacted by decisions but not part of the process. In reality, the
economy, environment, and society all are parts of the same inseparable
whole. Society needs a more enlightened system of decision-making -
one capable of integrating economic, ecological, and social decisions.
We need a "new" approach to farming in North America..... (....)

Pursuit of self-interests is an inherent aspect of being human. But,
people, by nature, do not pursue only their narrow, individual or
personal self-interest. It's also within the inherent nature of people to
care about other people and to care of the earth. People are perfectly
capable of rising above selfishness and greed to pursue a higher
concept of self-interest - a self-interest that values relationships with
other people and stewardship of the earth as important dimensions
of one's self-interests.


Seems on Usenet we have an unusual gathering of bigots then,as caring
and sharing is certainly a minority sport here.

This higher self-interest includes our narrow self-interest (personal,
individual concerns), but it also includes interests that we share with
others (relationship, community, and social concerns) and interests
that are purely altruistic (ethics and moral concerns). All three
contribute to our well being or quality of life. Each contributes to a
higher sense of quality of life - explicitly recognizing that each of us
individually is but a part of the whole of society, which in turn must
conform to some higher order or code of natural law....

....Admittedly, the new American farm will require a lot more knowledge,
understanding, and thinking than does farming by industrial methods.
However, any future occupation offering an opportunity for a decent
living will require people to use their minds. The days when someone
could earn a good living by the sweat of their brow are in the past.
There will be plenty of innovative, creative, hard working people to
operate the new American farms, once the real possibility for a more
desirable quality of life in farming - economically, socially, and ethically -
becomes widely known....

....We, the people, currently control everything that needs to be changed
in order to build a more sustainable, higher quality of life, as individuals
as well as for society as a whole. The economy is a creation of people -
it is not some sacred, unchangeable set of natural laws. People created
the current economic system and people can change it. The corporation
does not exist by some right or some decree from God. People created
corporations and they exist at the discretion of people. Each corporation
has a charter, which once obligated it to operate for the good of the public.
We the people can revoke those charters, even if we have to amend the
constitution to do it. We can control or abolish corporatism and we can
shape our economy to meet the needs of people....

One by one, as we find the courage to demand something better, we will
change the world for the better. Susan B. Anthony, the champion of
voting rights for women in the US once said, "Cautious, careful people,
always casting about to maintain their reputation and social standing,
never can bring about reform. Those who are really in earnest must be
willing to be anything or nothing in the world's estimation." It takes
courage to bring about change. But Margaret Mead, an award winning
cultural anthropologist, once said, "Never doubt that a small group of
thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world, indeed it's the only
thing that ever has." As each of us finds the courage to change our
selves and to influence our little piece of the world, we can change the
world. Indeed, this is the only thing that ever can.

John Ikerd can be reached at [..]
Full article at: http://www.cropchoice.com/leadstry.asp?recid=376

1999 University of Missouri Report to the US National Farmers Union,
'CONSOLIDATION IN THE FOOD AND AGRICULTURE SYSTEM'
- pdf format http://www.nfu.org/images/heffernan_1999.pdf
[extract below]

".....to understand the global food system, one must understand the
operations of the major global firms such as Cargill, ADM, and ConAgra http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex...ents/scats.htm .
....Today
the system is becoming much more complex starting with involvement in
biotechnology, extending through production, and ending with highly
processed food. Increasingly, these firms are developing a variety of
different alliances with other players in the system..... We will use the
concept 'cluster of firms' to represent these new economic arrangements.

.....In a food chain cluster, the food product is passed along from stage
to stage, but ownership never changes and neither does the location of
the decision-making. Starting with the intellectual property rights that
governments give to the biotechnology firms, the food product always
remains the property of a firm or cluster of firms. The farmer becomes
a grower, providing the labor and often some of the capital, but never
owning the product as it moves through the food system and never
making the major management decisions."

'CONSOLIDATION IN FOOD RETAILING AND DAIRY:
Implications for Farmers and Consumers in a Global Food System',
Report to National Farmers Union, Jan 2001, University of Missouri
http://www.nfu.org/index.cfm?categor...e=issues&id=67

UK farmers being led to US-style GM slavery
http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex...dSainsbury.htm

"Farmers will be given just enough to keep them interested in growing
the crops, but no more. And GM companies and food processors,
will say very clearly how they want the growers to grow the crops."
Friedrich Vogel, head of BASF's crop protection business
(Farmers Weekly 6 November 1998)

Disease and pestilence hits Missouri as GM soy expands
http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex...risoybeans.htm
..
http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex...griculture.htm


That can now be changed to 'Crisis and opportunity in global
agriculture'
  #40 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 21-03-2008, 12:32 PM posted to uk.business.agriculture,alt.food.vegan,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,rec.food.veg,uk.environment.conservation,uk.rec.birdwatching,uk.rec.gardening,uk.current-events.bird-flu
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"Old Codger" wrote in message ...
On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 11:58:31 -0000, "pearl"
wrote:

"( _ /)" wrote in message ...
On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 08:30:29 -0000, "Buddenbrooks"
wrote:


It will be interesting to see what the coming credit crunch driven downturn
in the economy does to people's views as jobs disappear and people realize that
keeping the worlds economy going and reducing emissions is not going to be
easy.

You are sort of missing the point. The global economy as we know it is
completely unsustainable, wasteful and destructive short cut to
destruction. The sooner we get rid of the idiocy of a material society
the better.

Then of course everything else will fall in to place.


'Enlightened Agriculture

"Cautious, careful people, always casting about to maintain their reputation
and social standing, never can bring about reform. Those who are really in
earnest must be willing to be anything or nothing in the world's estimation."
Susan B. Anthony

'Crisis and opportunity in North American agriculture' John Ikerd
Emeritus professor of agricultural economics at the University of
Missouri

[extracts only, as selected by nlpwessex - original article presented at
a farm conference, "Recapturing Wealth on the Canadian Prairies,"
Brandon, Manitoba, October 26-27, 2000 - full copy available at
http://www.cropchoice.com/leadstry.asp?recid=376 ]

......In essence, as agriculture moves from competitive capitalism to
corporatism, it changes from a market economy to "central planned"
economy. Central planning didn't work for the Communists, and it won't
work for the corporations. The problem wasn't that the Communists
weren't smart enough or that their computers weren't large enough.
Central planning is a fundamentally wrong-headed approach to managing
an economy - for corporations as well as governments. The corporate
system of food production will prove to be fundamentally incapable of
meeting the needs of the people. Its emergence as the dominant system,
therefore, represents a prime opportunity for an alternative to corporate
central planning, to create an agriculture that will truly meet the needs of
the people of an enlightened society.

As society becomes more enlightened, we are beginning to realize that
we are destroying our natural environment in the process of trying to
produce cheap food. We are mining the soil through erosion and
depletion of its natural product in the process of maximizing production
and minimizing dollar and cent costs of production. We are polluting
our streams and groundwater with residues from the pesticides and
commercial fertilizers necessary for large-scale, specialized industrial
crop production and with wastes from giant confinement animal feeding
factories. We are destroying the genetic diversity, both below and
above the soil that is necessary to support nature's means of capturing
and transforming solar energy into energy for human bodies.

As society becomes more enlightened, we are beginning to realize that
we are destroying the social fabric of society in the process of trying
to make agriculture more efficient. We are destroying opportunities for
people to lead productive, successful lives. We are turning thinking,
innovative, creative farmers into tractor drivers and hog house janitors.
There is dignity in all types of work, but all people should have
opportunities to express their full human potential. Consolidation of
decision making concentrates the opportunities among the privileged
few while leaving the many without hope for a rewarding future.
Industrial specialization also tends to separate people within families,
within communities, and within nations. We are just beginning to
realize that industrialization destroys the human relationships needed
to support a civilized society. The outdated economics that supports
agricultural industrialization is fundamentally incapable of dealing
effectively with either the environmental or social challenges of today.
In economics, the environment and society are external or outside of
the decision making process - something that may impact or be
impacted by decisions but not part of the process. In reality, the
economy, environment, and society all are parts of the same inseparable
whole. Society needs a more enlightened system of decision-making -
one capable of integrating economic, ecological, and social decisions.
We need a "new" approach to farming in North America..... (....)

Pursuit of self-interests is an inherent aspect of being human. But,
people, by nature, do not pursue only their narrow, individual or
personal self-interest. It's also within the inherent nature of people to
care about other people and to care of the earth. People are perfectly
capable of rising above selfishness and greed to pursue a higher
concept of self-interest - a self-interest that values relationships with
other people and stewardship of the earth as important dimensions
of one's self-interests.


Seems on Usenet we have an unusual gathering of bigots then,as caring
and sharing is certainly a minority sport here.

This higher self-interest includes our narrow self-interest (personal,
individual concerns), but it also includes interests that we share with
others (relationship, community, and social concerns) and interests
that are purely altruistic (ethics and moral concerns). All three
contribute to our well being or quality of life. Each contributes to a
higher sense of quality of life - explicitly recognizing that each of us
individually is but a part of the whole of society, which in turn must
conform to some higher order or code of natural law....

....Admittedly, the new American farm will require a lot more knowledge,
understanding, and thinking than does farming by industrial methods.
However, any future occupation offering an opportunity for a decent
living will require people to use their minds. The days when someone
could earn a good living by the sweat of their brow are in the past.
There will be plenty of innovative, creative, hard working people to
operate the new American farms, once the real possibility for a more
desirable quality of life in farming - economically, socially, and ethically -
becomes widely known....

....We, the people, currently control everything that needs to be changed
in order to build a more sustainable, higher quality of life, as individuals
as well as for society as a whole. The economy is a creation of people -
it is not some sacred, unchangeable set of natural laws. People created
the current economic system and people can change it. The corporation
does not exist by some right or some decree from God. People created
corporations and they exist at the discretion of people. Each corporation
has a charter, which once obligated it to operate for the good of the public.
We the people can revoke those charters, even if we have to amend the
constitution to do it. We can control or abolish corporatism and we can
shape our economy to meet the needs of people....

One by one, as we find the courage to demand something better, we will
change the world for the better. Susan B. Anthony, the champion of
voting rights for women in the US once said, "Cautious, careful people,
always casting about to maintain their reputation and social standing,
never can bring about reform. Those who are really in earnest must be
willing to be anything or nothing in the world's estimation." It takes
courage to bring about change. But Margaret Mead, an award winning
cultural anthropologist, once said, "Never doubt that a small group of
thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world, indeed it's the only
thing that ever has." As each of us finds the courage to change our
selves and to influence our little piece of the world, we can change the
world. Indeed, this is the only thing that ever can.

John Ikerd can be reached at [..]
Full article at: http://www.cropchoice.com/leadstry.asp?recid=376

1999 University of Missouri Report to the US National Farmers Union,
'CONSOLIDATION IN THE FOOD AND AGRICULTURE SYSTEM'
- pdf format http://www.nfu.org/images/heffernan_1999.pdf
[extract below]

".....to understand the global food system, one must understand the
operations of the major global firms such as Cargill, ADM, and ConAgra http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex...ents/scats.htm .
....Today
the system is becoming much more complex starting with involvement in
biotechnology, extending through production, and ending with highly
processed food. Increasingly, these firms are developing a variety of
different alliances with other players in the system..... We will use the
concept 'cluster of firms' to represent these new economic arrangements.

.....In a food chain cluster, the food product is passed along from stage
to stage, but ownership never changes and neither does the location of
the decision-making. Starting with the intellectual property rights that
governments give to the biotechnology firms, the food product always
remains the property of a firm or cluster of firms. The farmer becomes
a grower, providing the labor and often some of the capital, but never
owning the product as it moves through the food system and never
making the major management decisions."

'CONSOLIDATION IN FOOD RETAILING AND DAIRY:
Implications for Farmers and Consumers in a Global Food System',
Report to National Farmers Union, Jan 2001, University of Missouri
http://www.nfu.org/index.cfm?categor...e=issues&id=67

UK farmers being led to US-style GM slavery
http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex...dSainsbury.htm

"Farmers will be given just enough to keep them interested in growing
the crops, but no more. And GM companies and food processors,
will say very clearly how they want the growers to grow the crops."
Friedrich Vogel, head of BASF's crop protection business
(Farmers Weekly 6 November 1998)

Disease and pestilence hits Missouri as GM soy expands
http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex...risoybeans.htm
..
http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex...griculture.htm


That can now be changed to 'Crisis and opportunity in global
agriculture'


Indeed.





  #41 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 21-03-2008, 01:33 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,uk.environment.conservation,uk.rec.birdwatching
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On Mar 21, 10:48*am, Old Codger
wrote:
On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 10:58:04 -0700 (PDT), Buxqi
wrote:

On 20 Mar, 16:21, Old Codger wrote:
Tom Withycombe wrote:


I'm obviously suffering from mental constipation but could someone
enlighten me as to what this rubbish has to do with a ng dedicated to
British birdwatching?


Nothing at all Tom, just as it has little relevance to many of the
groups to which it is cross posted.


Of course the problem could be alleviated if everyone replying
to the guy removed all the irrelevant groups from the cross-post
first.


That requires aptitude and common sense. Something the troll netkops
don't possess.

*However, Pete is so desperate for
attention that he always cross posts to at least six groups.


Why does he post to small groups instead of large ones if
that is his motivation?


Education for all I should imagine.


The point is people don't sign up to groups like uk.rec.birdwatching
to discuss animal rights.

*In
addition, he frequently nymshifts in attempts to avoid the kill filters..


If they don't want to read his posts he should respect that...


That's a bit like saying a newspaper should be tailored to individual
wants. Nonsense. Most of the netkops just want comics and dirty
magazines to read. In Brian's (Old Codger from Bicknacre in Essex)
case he just wants dirty magazines portraying bestiality subjects.

The simple fact is if you don't want to read something then DON'T, but
please don't proceed and feel the world needs to know about your
decision.

We simply don't care.


That's not the point. I wasn't question whether he should continue
posting to *relevant* newsgroups. If he wants to then of course he
should! But worming around people's killfiles, I don't agree with
that...

By all means discuss this in the fullest possible detail in the vegan, veggie, environmentally aware landfill sites,
methane and related gases and such focussed groups but please don't dump
this rubbish in the British birdwatching group. After all you have
around 60,000 other newsgroups to choose.


Every one should be aware of the problem the planet faces.


The planet has many problems. People who want to discuss them
or learn about them do not join uk.rec.birdwatching to learn about
them. End of.

Even if you
are sad twitcher who likes to hide away in dark bushes pretending to
look for birds but usually just peeping toms!


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Old 21-03-2008, 01:51 PM posted to alt.food.vegan,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,uk.environment.conservation,uk.rec.birdwatching
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"Buxqi" wrote in message ...
On Mar 21, 10:48 am, Old Codger
wrote:

Education for all I should imagine.


The point is people don't sign up to groups like uk.rec.birdwatching
to discuss animal rights.
...
By all means discuss this in the fullest possible detail in the vegan, veggie, environmentally aware landfill sites,
methane and related gases and such focussed groups but please don't dump
this rubbish in the British birdwatching group. After all you have
around 60,000 other newsgroups to choose.


Every one should be aware of the problem the planet faces.


The planet has many problems. People who want to discuss them
or learn about them do not join uk.rec.birdwatching to learn about
them. End of.
...

Don't be silly. People who have an interest in birds have an interest
in their welfare, as in rights, as well as our impact on the ecosystem.



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Old 21-03-2008, 03:17 PM posted to uk.business.agriculture,alt.food.vegan,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,rec.food.veg,uk.environment.conservation,uk.rec.birdwatching,uk.rec.gardening,uk.current-events.bird-flu
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Default Eat less meat

"pearl" wrote in message ...
...
'Crisis and opportunity in North American agriculture' John Ikerd
Emeritus professor of agricultural economics at the University of
Missouri

[extracts only, as selected by nlpwessex - original article presented at
a farm conference, "Recapturing Wealth on the Canadian Prairies,"
Brandon, Manitoba, October 26-27, 2000 - full copy available at
http://www.cropchoice.com/leadstry.asp?recid=376 ]


This paper can be read he
http://web.archive.org/web/200409280....asp?recid=376

'Today agricultural markets are dominated by the large agribusiness
corporations, certainly at every level other than the farm level, and
increasingly even at the farm level. ... Consumers don't get accurate,
unbiased information concerning the products they buy, but instead
get disinformation by design, disguised as advertising. ... The food
industry spends billions of dollars designed specifically to bend and
shape consumers tastes and preferences to accommodate mass
production and mass distribution, which enable corporate control of
agriculture. ... corporate agriculture today is designed specifically to
generate profits and growth for corporate investors. .... '


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Old 21-03-2008, 05:28 PM posted to uk.business.agriculture,alt.food.vegan,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,rec.food.veg,uk.environment.conservation,uk.rec.birdwatching,uk.rec.gardening,uk.current-events.bird-flu
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Old Codger wrote:

None of it. That's another Pete the troll forgery. He keeps doing it,
especially in this thread. Five times so far.

Seems on Usenet we have an unusual gathering of bigots then,as caring
and sharing is certainly a minority sport here.


As Pete never reads what he posts and desires only to provoke
argument it is safest to assume that anything he espouses is
at least unsafe and probably malicious.

--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]
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Old 21-03-2008, 05:34 PM posted to uk.business.agriculture,alt.food.vegan,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,rec.food.veg,uk.environment.conservation,uk.rec.birdwatching,uk.rec.gardening,uk.current-events.bird-flu
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Default Eat less meat

On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 12:03:07 -0000, "Jim Webster"
wrote:


"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Old Codger" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 10:58:04 -0700 (PDT), Buxqi
wrote:


By all means discuss this in the fullest possible detail in the
vegan, veggie, environmentally aware landfill sites,
methane and related gases and such focussed groups but please don't
dump
this rubbish in the British birdwatching group. After all you have
around 60,000 other newsgroups to choose.

Every one should be aware of the problem the planet faces.


"Cautious, careful people, always casting about to maintain their
reputation
and social standing, never can bring about reform. Those who are really
in
earnest must be willing to be anything or nothing in the world's
estimation."
- Susan B. Anthony


posted by someone who won;'t eat meat this is nicely ironic


You seem to have missed the point jim. Your obsession with meat eating
self abuse doesn't have to be that way. Just stop eating it and at the
same time solve many of the worlds problems. Isn't it about time you
considered others for a change? The farm grandad handed to you on a
plate though you are an unwilling and incapable farmer is now almost
worthless so the family wont see that when you pop your clogs. So
perhaps you standing up to be counted could be your legacy for the
family?


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