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Default Meat is a prominent part of chimpanzee diet; pre-human hominidsate meat for 2.25 million years (biologically adapted to meat)

pearl wrote:
> "Rudy Canoza" > wrote in message ...
>> In the early 1960s, when the british primatologist
>> Jane Goodall first observed wild chimpanzees hunting
>> and eating meat in Gombe National Park, Tanzania, it
>> was widely believed that these animals were strict
>> vegetarians. Skeptics suggested that the diet of the
>> Gombe chimpanzees was aberrant.

>
> Gombe National Park is a limited and highly populated area.


Chimpanzees hunt throughout their range.

In the early 1960's, when Dr. Jane Goodall began her
now famous study of the chimpanzees of Gombe
National Park, Tanzania, it was thought that
chimpanzees were strictly vegetarian. In fact, when
Goodall first reported this behavior, many people
were skeptical and claimed that meat was not a
natural part of the chimpanzee diet. Today, hunting
by chimpanzees at Gombe has been well documented
(Teleki 1973; Goodall 1986), and hunting has also
been observed at most other sites in Africa where
chimpanzees have been studied, including Mahale
Mountains National Park (Uehara et al. 1992) (also
in Tanzania) and Tai National Park in Ivory Coast in
West Africa (Boesch and Boesch 1989). At Gombe, we
now know that chimpanzees may kill and eat more than
150 small and medium sized animals such as monkeys,
wild pigs and small antelopes each year.
http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~stanford/chimphunt.html


Craig Stanford is the foremost expert in chimpanzee
behavior today.
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Default Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian??

pearl wrote:
> "Rudy Canoza" > wrote in message ...
>
>> pearl wrote:
>>> Faking quotes,

>> Faking nothing.

>
> Faking quotes,


Faking nothing. Coleman is a terrorist extremist, and
so are you.
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Default Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian??

"scavenging, *not* hunting. Our review of the archaeology yields
results"

In the question of when and why pre-humans added meat as part of their
feeding strategy, the above is a difference without a distinction. Meat
was part of the diet and has continued to be so eversince.

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Default Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian??


...
>> >> The PBS science show Nova had this week a show on chimps. Not only did
>> >> they eat meat with great relish they did so at every opportunity.
>> >>
>> >> They had invented a kind of spear to kill animals to eat. They hunt
>> >> with group cooperation and share the meat among themselves.
>> >
>> > Where?

>>
>> In their entire range.

>
>'Relating Chimpanzee Diets to Potential Australopithecine Diets
>Conklin-Brittain, Nancy Lou
>Wrangham, Richard W.
>
>We report data using an ape model to reconstruct the nutrient
>composition of the frugivorous diet of our last common ancestor
>with African great apes. We aimed to determine whether the
>African ape clade, from which hominids evolved, has any unusual
>features. We studied frugivory by comparing chimpanzee diets to
>that of three species of cercopithecine monkeys in Kibale Forest,
>Uganda.
>
>Data came from a 12-month period that showed inter-monthly
>variation in fruit abundance. The monkeys consumed stable
>nutrient levels except for lipid, which was low (3.2 +/- 2.0 %
>dry matter (DM)), but peaked at about 9% DM during ripe fruit
>abundance. Chimpanzees also consumed low lipid and sugar diets
>during fruit poor seasons. Protein intake reflected each species'
>fallback food: leaf consumption kept the protein levels high for
>monkeys (16.7 +/- 1.9% DM); chimpanzees relied on herbaceous
>piths and maintained a low protein intake (9.5 +/- 3.0% DM).
>Fallback food was probably also responsible for the high fiber
>(NDF) intakes by monkeys, which was not significantly different
>from chimpanzees' (32.4 +/- 3.6% NDF versus 33.6 +/- 4.5%
>NDF respectively).
>
>Three conclusions emerge: fat intake was low for all frugivores,
>protein intake was low for chimpanzees, and fiber intake was high
>for all species. Our data (from a lipid-poor habitat) show that
>high lipid or high protein is not needed for normal health and
>reproduction of chimpanzees. Therefore, hominids were probably
>capable of living on a low-fat, low-protein diet such as would be
>provided by fibrous roots commonly found in a seasonal woodland
>environment.
>
>http://www.cast.uark.edu/local/icaes...onklin/abstrac
>t.html


In science the answers one gets is a function of the questions one asks.
Tabove does not answer the question do chimps eat meat with grea relish,
share it among themselves, produce tools to hunt animals, and hunt
cooperatively.

The above was asking about proportions of macro nutrients and seasonal
feeding habits.
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Default Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian??

wrote:
>>
...
>>>>> The PBS science show Nova had this week a show on chimps. Not only did
>>>>> they eat meat with great relish they did so at every opportunity.
>>>>>
>>>>> They had invented a kind of spear to kill animals to eat. They hunt
>>>>> with group cooperation and share the meat among themselves.
>>>> Where?
>>> In their entire range.

>> 'Relating Chimpanzee Diets to Potential Australopithecine Diets
>> Conklin-Brittain, Nancy Lou
>> Wrangham, Richard W.
>>
>> We report data using an ape model to reconstruct the nutrient
>> composition of the frugivorous diet of our last common ancestor
>> with African great apes. We aimed to determine whether the
>> African ape clade, from which hominids evolved, has any unusual
>> features. We studied frugivory by comparing chimpanzee diets to
>> that of three species of cercopithecine monkeys in Kibale Forest,
>> Uganda.
>>
>> Data came from a 12-month period that showed inter-monthly
>> variation in fruit abundance. The monkeys consumed stable
>> nutrient levels except for lipid, which was low (3.2 +/- 2.0 %
>> dry matter (DM)), but peaked at about 9% DM during ripe fruit
>> abundance. Chimpanzees also consumed low lipid and sugar diets
>> during fruit poor seasons. Protein intake reflected each species'
>> fallback food: leaf consumption kept the protein levels high for
>> monkeys (16.7 +/- 1.9% DM); chimpanzees relied on herbaceous
>> piths and maintained a low protein intake (9.5 +/- 3.0% DM).
>> Fallback food was probably also responsible for the high fiber
>> (NDF) intakes by monkeys, which was not significantly different
>>from chimpanzees' (32.4 +/- 3.6% NDF versus 33.6 +/- 4.5%
>> NDF respectively).
>>
>> Three conclusions emerge: fat intake was low for all frugivores,
>> protein intake was low for chimpanzees, and fiber intake was high
>> for all species. Our data (from a lipid-poor habitat) show that
>> high lipid or high protein is not needed for normal health and
>> reproduction of chimpanzees. Therefore, hominids were probably
>> capable of living on a low-fat, low-protein diet such as would be
>> provided by fibrous roots commonly found in a seasonal woodland
>> environment.
>>
>>
http://www.cast.uark.edu/local/icaes...onklin/abstrac
>> t.html

>
> In science the answers one gets is a function of the questions one asks.
> Tabove does not answer the question do chimps eat meat with grea relish,
> share it among themselves, produce tools to hunt animals, and hunt
> cooperatively.
>
> The above was asking about proportions of macro nutrients and seasonal
> feeding habits.


You have to understand something about lesley ("pearl",
except she's anything but.) She's a "vegan" crank.
She isn't interested in understanding the facts of
human diet. She's trying to advance a belief system
about what human diet "ought" to be, in her crank's
view, and to do that she has to ignore facts.

The facts a

1. Humans - homo sapiens sapiens - have always eaten
meat, for the entire 250,000 years the species has
existed.

2. Pre-human hominids ate meat throughout the 2.25 million
years from australopithecus afarensis to homo sapiens
sapiens.

3. Chimpanzees, our genetically closest ape relatives,
hunt throughout their range, and consume animal
protein in the form of mammal meat, insects, eggs and
birds throughout the year. They spend some time
acquiring and eating meat half the days of the year.


lesley ignores these facts, and the material she posts
does not dispute them; the material largely ignores
them. She tries to spin it as disputing or refuting
the facts, but it's *only* spin.
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Default Gorillas as well as chimpanzees eat a lot of insects

> wrote in message u...

"Certain"...

> Primates eat insects as part of a feeding strategy in a particular
> ecological niche. Body size and nutrition density play a part.
>
> Monkey Maddness - Natural Diet of Primates
>
> http://monkeymaddness.com/articles/naturaldiet.html







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Default Gorillas as well as chimpanzees eat a lot of insects

"Rudy Canoza" > wrote in message ...
> pearl wrote:
> > "Rudy Canoza" > wrote in message ...


> > 'Diet and seasonal changes in sympatric gorillas and chimpanzees

>
> You haven't read that paper, and it doesn't dispute the
> fact that gorillas eat LOTS of insects. They do. So
> do chimpanzees.


Some may. You're wildly generalizing again.



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Default Meat is a prominent part of chimpanzee diet; pre-human hominids ate meat for 2.25 million years (biologically adapted to meat)

> wrote in message u...

> "Chimpanzees' habitat been increasingly encroached upon,
> destroyed, and fragmented by human activites. This has
> undeniably caused an increase in population in remaining
> habitat, and thus increased competition for the available
> resources. This is why the earlier studies more reliably
> reflect primates' natural dietary preferences and habits."
>
> This begs the question and is a tautology ,ie. the snake chasing its
> logical tail.


There has to be a logical reason for the discrepancies.

'During the 1980s, Africa lost an estimated 47 million
hectares of forest. By 1995 another 19 million hectares
had been lost, according to FAO,..
...
In forested areas, patches of logging, agricultural advance
and unsustainable harvesting of fuelwood and non-timber
products fragment and degrade remaining forests.
Fragmentation leads to loss of contact with part of the
ecosystem necessary to maintain regeneration and full
biodiversity. Many species need large and diverse areas.
Others depend on other species, living in the border areas
of the ecosystem or species being hunted or harvested.
Thus, very few entire forest ecosystems, frontier forests
keep existing.

Worldwide, 80% of original forest cover has been cleared,
fragmented, or otherwise degraded in the 20th century. In
the Atlantic rainforests of Brazil, the West African rainforests,
Madagascar, and Sumatra - some of the richest biological
treasure houses of the world - much less than 10% of the
original forest cover is left. There, many populations of
plants and animals are losing their long-term viability through
fragmentation and genetic erosion. A wave of extinctions is
just around the corner - unless "radical" action is taken.

http://www.afrol.com/features/10278

> Chimps eat meat, do so with great energy and relish consuming it.


Not according to earlier studies, nor all recent studies.


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Default Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian??

"Rudy Canoza" > wrote in message ...
> pearl wrote:
> > "Rudy Canoza" > wrote in message ...
> >
> >> pearl wrote:
> >>> Faking quotes,
> >> Faking nothing.

> >
> > Faking quotes,

>
> Faking nothing. Coleman is a terrorist extremist, and
> so are you.


'Avoiding acceptance of responsibility - denial, counterattack and
feigning victimhood

The serial bully is an adult on the outside but a child on the inside;
he or she is like a child who has never grown up. One suspects that
the bully is emotionally retarded and has a level of emotional
development equivalent to a five-year-old, or less. The bully wants
to enjoy the benefits of living in the adult world, but is unable and
unwilling to accept the responsibilities that go with enjoying the
benefits of the adult world. In short, the bully has never learnt to
accept responsibility for their behaviour.

When called to account for the way they have chosen to behave,
the bully instinctively exhibits this recognisable behavioural response:

a) Denial: the bully denies everything. Variations include Trivialization
...
b) Retaliation: the bully counterattacks. The bully quickly and
seamlessly follows the denial with an aggressive counter-attack of
counter-criticism or counter-allegation, often based on distortion
or fabrication. Lying, deception, duplicity, hypocrisy and blame are
the hallmarks of this stage. The purpose is to avoid answering the
question and thus avoid accepting responsibility for their behaviour.
...'
http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm#Denial




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Default Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian??

> wrote in message u...
>
> ...
> >> >> The PBS science show Nova had this week a show on chimps. Not only did
> >> >> they eat meat with great relish they did so at every opportunity.
> >> >>
> >> >> They had invented a kind of spear to kill animals to eat. They hunt
> >> >> with group cooperation and share the meat among themselves.
> >> >
> >> > Where?
> >>
> >> In their entire range.

> >
> >'Relating Chimpanzee Diets to Potential Australopithecine Diets
> >Conklin-Brittain, Nancy Lou
> >Wrangham, Richard W.
> >
> >We report data using an ape model to reconstruct the nutrient
> >composition of the frugivorous diet of our last common ancestor
> >with African great apes. We aimed to determine whether the
> >African ape clade, from which hominids evolved, has any unusual
> >features. We studied frugivory by comparing chimpanzee diets to
> >that of three species of cercopithecine monkeys in Kibale Forest,
> >Uganda.
> >
> >Data came from a 12-month period that showed inter-monthly
> >variation in fruit abundance. The monkeys consumed stable
> >nutrient levels except for lipid, which was low (3.2 +/- 2.0 %
> >dry matter (DM)), but peaked at about 9% DM during ripe fruit
> >abundance. Chimpanzees also consumed low lipid and sugar diets
> >during fruit poor seasons. Protein intake reflected each species'
> >fallback food: leaf consumption kept the protein levels high for
> >monkeys (16.7 +/- 1.9% DM); chimpanzees relied on herbaceous
> >piths and maintained a low protein intake (9.5 +/- 3.0% DM).
> >Fallback food was probably also responsible for the high fiber
> >(NDF) intakes by monkeys, which was not significantly different
> >from chimpanzees' (32.4 +/- 3.6% NDF versus 33.6 +/- 4.5%
> >NDF respectively).
> >
> >Three conclusions emerge: fat intake was low for all frugivores,
> >protein intake was low for chimpanzees, and fiber intake was high
> >for all species. Our data (from a lipid-poor habitat) show that
> >high lipid or high protein is not needed for normal health and
> >reproduction of chimpanzees. Therefore, hominids were probably
> >capable of living on a low-fat, low-protein diet such as would be
> >provided by fibrous roots commonly found in a seasonal woodland
> >environment.
> >
> >http://www.cast.uark.edu/local/icaes...onklin/abstrac
> >t.html

>
> In science the answers one gets is a function of the questions one asks.
> Tabove does not answer the question do chimps eat meat with grea relish,
> share it among themselves, produce tools to hunt animals, and hunt
> cooperatively.
>
> The above was asking about proportions of macro nutrients and seasonal
> feeding habits.


And hunting wasn't mentioned. Neither was eating insects.



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Default Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian??

"Rudy Canoza" > wrote in message ...
> wrote:
> >>
...
> >>>>> The PBS science show Nova had this week a show on chimps. Not only did
> >>>>> they eat meat with great relish they did so at every opportunity.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> They had invented a kind of spear to kill animals to eat. They hunt
> >>>>> with group cooperation and share the meat among themselves.
> >>>> Where?
> >>> In their entire range.
> >> 'Relating Chimpanzee Diets to Potential Australopithecine Diets
> >> Conklin-Brittain, Nancy Lou
> >> Wrangham, Richard W.
> >>
> >> We report data using an ape model to reconstruct the nutrient
> >> composition of the frugivorous diet of our last common ancestor
> >> with African great apes. We aimed to determine whether the
> >> African ape clade, from which hominids evolved, has any unusual
> >> features. We studied frugivory by comparing chimpanzee diets to
> >> that of three species of cercopithecine monkeys in Kibale Forest,
> >> Uganda.
> >>
> >> Data came from a 12-month period that showed inter-monthly
> >> variation in fruit abundance. The monkeys consumed stable
> >> nutrient levels except for lipid, which was low (3.2 +/- 2.0 %
> >> dry matter (DM)), but peaked at about 9% DM during ripe fruit
> >> abundance. Chimpanzees also consumed low lipid and sugar diets
> >> during fruit poor seasons. Protein intake reflected each species'
> >> fallback food: leaf consumption kept the protein levels high for
> >> monkeys (16.7 +/- 1.9% DM); chimpanzees relied on herbaceous
> >> piths and maintained a low protein intake (9.5 +/- 3.0% DM).
> >> Fallback food was probably also responsible for the high fiber
> >> (NDF) intakes by monkeys, which was not significantly different
> >>from chimpanzees' (32.4 +/- 3.6% NDF versus 33.6 +/- 4.5%
> >> NDF respectively).
> >>
> >> Three conclusions emerge: fat intake was low for all frugivores,
> >> protein intake was low for chimpanzees, and fiber intake was high
> >> for all species. Our data (from a lipid-poor habitat) show that
> >> high lipid or high protein is not needed for normal health and
> >> reproduction of chimpanzees. Therefore, hominids were probably
> >> capable of living on a low-fat, low-protein diet such as would be
> >> provided by fibrous roots commonly found in a seasonal woodland
> >> environment.
> >>
> >>
http://www.cast.uark.edu/local/icaes...onklin/abstrac
> >> t.html

> >
> > In science the answers one gets is a function of the questions one asks.
> > Tabove does not answer the question do chimps eat meat with grea relish,
> > share it among themselves, produce tools to hunt animals, and hunt
> > cooperatively.
> >
> > The above was asking about proportions of macro nutrients and seasonal
> > feeding habits.

>
> You have to understand something about lesley ("pearl",
> except she's anything but.) She's a "vegan" crank.
> She isn't interested in understanding the facts of
> human diet. She's trying to advance a belief system
> about what human diet "ought" to be, in her crank's
> view, and to do that she has to ignore facts.
>
> The facts a
>
> 1. Humans - homo sapiens sapiens - have always eaten
> meat, for the entire 250,000 years the species has
> existed.
>
> 2. Pre-human hominids ate meat throughout the 2.25 million
> years from australopithecus afarensis to homo sapiens
> sapiens.
>
> 3. Chimpanzees, our genetically closest ape relatives,
> hunt throughout their range, and consume animal
> protein in the form of mammal meat, insects, eggs and
> birds throughout the year. They spend some time
> acquiring and eating meat half the days of the year.
>
>
> lesley ignores these facts, and the material she posts
> does not dispute them; the material largely ignores
> them. She tries to spin it as disputing or refuting
> the facts, but it's *only* spin.


'Bullies project their inadequacies, shortcomings, behaviours
etc on to other people to avoid facing up to their inadequacy
and doing something about it (learning about oneself can be
painful), and to distract and divert attention away from
themselves and their inadequacies. Projection is achieved
through blame, criticism and allegation; once you realise this,
every criticism, allegation etc that the bully makes about their
target is actually an admission or revelation about themselves.'

The Socialised Psychopath or Sociopath
http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/serial.htm

Faking quotes, forged posts, lies, filth, harassment.
http://www.iol.ie/~creature/boiled%20ball.html



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Default Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian??

> wrote in message u...

> "scavenging, *not* hunting. Our review of the archaeology yields
> results"
>
> In the question of when and why pre-humans added meat as part of their
> feeding strategy, the above is a difference without a distinction. Meat
> was part of the diet and has continued to be so eversince.


Some humans... "in the context of competitive male displays."
.... "meat was consumed at or near the point of acquisition,
not at home bases"..."*not* for purposes of provisioning".


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Default Gorillas as well as chimpanzees eat a lot of insects

pearl wrote:
> > wrote in message u...
>
> "Certain"...


You didn't say anything.

Gorillas and chimpanzees eat a lot of insects.


>
>> Primates eat insects as part of a feeding strategy in a particular
>> ecological niche. Body size and nutrition density play a part.
>>
>> Monkey Maddness - Natural Diet of Primates
>>
>> http://monkeymaddness.com/articles/naturaldiet.html

>
>
>
>
>
>

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Default Gorillas as well as chimpanzees eat a lot of insects

pearl wrote:
> "Rudy Canoza" > wrote in message ...
>> pearl wrote:
>>> "Rudy Canoza" > wrote in message ...

>
>>> 'Diet and seasonal changes in sympatric gorillas and chimpanzees

>> You haven't read that paper, and it doesn't dispute the
>> fact that gorillas eat LOTS of insects. They do. So
>> do chimpanzees.

>
> Some may.


Gorillas and chimpanzees eat insects - full stop.


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Default Meat is a prominent part of chimpanzee diet; pre-human hominidsate meat for 2.25 million years (biologically adapted to meat)

pearl wrote:
> > wrote in message u...
>
>> "Chimpanzees' habitat been increasingly encroached upon,
>> destroyed, and fragmented by human activites. This has
>> undeniably caused an increase in population in remaining
>> habitat, and thus increased competition for the available
>> resources. This is why the earlier studies more reliably
>> reflect primates' natural dietary preferences and habits."
>>
>> This begs the question and is a tautology ,ie. the snake chasing its
>> logical tail.

>
> There has to be a logical reason for the discrepancies.


You didn't give it.



>
>> Chimps eat meat, do so with great energy and relish consuming it.

>
> Not according to earlier studies,


They missed something crucial, didn't they?


> nor all recent studies.


Yes, all of them. *NO* study has said that chimpanzees
don't eat meat.
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Default Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian??

pearl wrote:
> "Rudy Canoza" > wrote in message ...
>> pearl wrote:
>>> "Rudy Canoza" > wrote in message ...
>>>
>>>> pearl wrote:
>>>>> Faking quotes,
>>>> Faking nothing.
>>> Faking quotes,

>> Faking nothing. Coleman is a terrorist extremist, and
>> so are you.

>
> 'Avoiding acceptance of responsibility


What you and that extremist terrorist John Coleman do.
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Default Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian??

pearl wrote:
> > wrote in message u...
>>> ...
>>>>>> The PBS science show Nova had this week a show on chimps. Not only did
>>>>>> they eat meat with great relish they did so at every opportunity.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They had invented a kind of spear to kill animals to eat. They hunt
>>>>>> with group cooperation and share the meat among themselves.
>>>>> Where?
>>>> In their entire range.
>>> 'Relating Chimpanzee Diets to Potential Australopithecine Diets
>>> Conklin-Brittain, Nancy Lou
>>> Wrangham, Richard W.
>>>
>>> We report data using an ape model to reconstruct the nutrient
>>> composition of the frugivorous diet of our last common ancestor
>>> with African great apes. We aimed to determine whether the
>>> African ape clade, from which hominids evolved, has any unusual
>>> features. We studied frugivory by comparing chimpanzee diets to
>>> that of three species of cercopithecine monkeys in Kibale Forest,
>>> Uganda.
>>>
>>> Data came from a 12-month period that showed inter-monthly
>>> variation in fruit abundance. The monkeys consumed stable
>>> nutrient levels except for lipid, which was low (3.2 +/- 2.0 %
>>> dry matter (DM)), but peaked at about 9% DM during ripe fruit
>>> abundance. Chimpanzees also consumed low lipid and sugar diets
>>> during fruit poor seasons. Protein intake reflected each species'
>>> fallback food: leaf consumption kept the protein levels high for
>>> monkeys (16.7 +/- 1.9% DM); chimpanzees relied on herbaceous
>>> piths and maintained a low protein intake (9.5 +/- 3.0% DM).
>>> Fallback food was probably also responsible for the high fiber
>>> (NDF) intakes by monkeys, which was not significantly different
>> >from chimpanzees' (32.4 +/- 3.6% NDF versus 33.6 +/- 4.5%
>>> NDF respectively).
>>>
>>> Three conclusions emerge: fat intake was low for all frugivores,
>>> protein intake was low for chimpanzees, and fiber intake was high
>>> for all species. Our data (from a lipid-poor habitat) show that
>>> high lipid or high protein is not needed for normal health and
>>> reproduction of chimpanzees. Therefore, hominids were probably
>>> capable of living on a low-fat, low-protein diet such as would be
>>> provided by fibrous roots commonly found in a seasonal woodland
>>> environment.
>>>
>>>
http://www.cast.uark.edu/local/icaes...onklin/abstrac
>>> t.html

>> In science the answers one gets is a function of the questions one asks.
>> Tabove does not answer the question do chimps eat meat with grea relish,
>> share it among themselves, produce tools to hunt animals, and hunt
>> cooperatively.
>>
>> The above was asking about proportions of macro nutrients and seasonal
>> feeding habits.

>
> And hunting wasn't mentioned. Neither was eating insects.


Because they weren't trying to answer questions about
that. Those studies did *not* say that chimpanzees do
not eat meat or insects.
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Default Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian??

pearl wrote:
> "Rudy Canoza" > wrote in message ...
>> wrote:
>>>>
...
>>>>>>> The PBS science show Nova had this week a show on chimps. Not only did
>>>>>>> they eat meat with great relish they did so at every opportunity.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They had invented a kind of spear to kill animals to eat. They hunt
>>>>>>> with group cooperation and share the meat among themselves.
>>>>>> Where?
>>>>> In their entire range.
>>>> 'Relating Chimpanzee Diets to Potential Australopithecine Diets
>>>> Conklin-Brittain, Nancy Lou
>>>> Wrangham, Richard W.
>>>>
>>>> We report data using an ape model to reconstruct the nutrient
>>>> composition of the frugivorous diet of our last common ancestor
>>>> with African great apes. We aimed to determine whether the
>>>> African ape clade, from which hominids evolved, has any unusual
>>>> features. We studied frugivory by comparing chimpanzee diets to
>>>> that of three species of cercopithecine monkeys in Kibale Forest,
>>>> Uganda.
>>>>
>>>> Data came from a 12-month period that showed inter-monthly
>>>> variation in fruit abundance. The monkeys consumed stable
>>>> nutrient levels except for lipid, which was low (3.2 +/- 2.0 %
>>>> dry matter (DM)), but peaked at about 9% DM during ripe fruit
>>>> abundance. Chimpanzees also consumed low lipid and sugar diets
>>>> during fruit poor seasons. Protein intake reflected each species'
>>>> fallback food: leaf consumption kept the protein levels high for
>>>> monkeys (16.7 +/- 1.9% DM); chimpanzees relied on herbaceous
>>>> piths and maintained a low protein intake (9.5 +/- 3.0% DM).
>>>> Fallback food was probably also responsible for the high fiber
>>>> (NDF) intakes by monkeys, which was not significantly different
>>> >from chimpanzees' (32.4 +/- 3.6% NDF versus 33.6 +/- 4.5%
>>>> NDF respectively).
>>>>
>>>> Three conclusions emerge: fat intake was low for all frugivores,
>>>> protein intake was low for chimpanzees, and fiber intake was high
>>>> for all species. Our data (from a lipid-poor habitat) show that
>>>> high lipid or high protein is not needed for normal health and
>>>> reproduction of chimpanzees. Therefore, hominids were probably
>>>> capable of living on a low-fat, low-protein diet such as would be
>>>> provided by fibrous roots commonly found in a seasonal woodland
>>>> environment.
>>>>
>>>>
http://www.cast.uark.edu/local/icaes...onklin/abstrac
>>>> t.html
>>> In science the answers one gets is a function of the questions one asks.
>>> Tabove does not answer the question do chimps eat meat with grea relish,
>>> share it among themselves, produce tools to hunt animals, and hunt
>>> cooperatively.
>>>
>>> The above was asking about proportions of macro nutrients and seasonal
>>> feeding habits.

>> You have to understand something about lesley ("pearl",
>> except she's anything but.) She's a "vegan" crank.
>> She isn't interested in understanding the facts of
>> human diet. She's trying to advance a belief system
>> about what human diet "ought" to be, in her crank's
>> view, and to do that she has to ignore facts.
>>
>> The facts a
>>
>> 1. Humans - homo sapiens sapiens - have always eaten
>> meat, for the entire 250,000 years the species has
>> existed.
>>
>> 2. Pre-human hominids ate meat throughout the 2.25 million
>> years from australopithecus afarensis to homo sapiens
>> sapiens.
>>
>> 3. Chimpanzees, our genetically closest ape relatives,
>> hunt throughout their range, and consume animal
>> protein in the form of mammal meat, insects, eggs and
>> birds throughout the year. They spend some time
>> acquiring and eating meat half the days of the year.
>>
>>
>> lesley ignores these facts, and the material she posts
>> does not dispute them; the material largely ignores
>> them. She tries to spin it as disputing or refuting
>> the facts, but it's *only* spin.

>
> [lesley's irrelevant crap]


You ignore the preponderance of the facts, because they
queer the false view you wish were true.
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Default Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian??

pearl wrote:
> > wrote in message u...
>
>> "scavenging, *not* hunting. Our review of the archaeology yields
>> results"
>>
>> In the question of when and why pre-humans added meat as part of their
>> feeding strategy, the above is a difference without a distinction. Meat
>> was part of the diet and has continued to be so eversince.

>
> Some humans...


Meat has been an essential part of the diet of all
human societies, and of the vast, overwhelming majority
of individual human beings.

Humans eat meat: at all times and places.


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Default Meat is a prominent part of chimpanzee diet; pre-human hominidsate meat for 2.25 million years (biologically adapted to meat)

chico wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 07:36:37 -0800 Rudy Canoza > wrote:
>> pearl wrote:
>>> "Rudy Canoza" > wrote in message ...
>>>> In the early 1960s, when the british primatologist
>>>> Jane Goodall first observed wild chimpanzees hunting
>>>> and eating meat in Gombe National Park, Tanzania, it
>>>> was widely believed that these animals were strict
>>>> vegetarians. Skeptics suggested that the diet of the
>>>> Gombe chimpanzees was aberrant.
>>> Gombe National Park is a limited and highly populated area.

>> Chimpanzees hunt throughout their range.
>>
>> In the early 1960's, when Dr. Jane Goodall began her
>> now famous study of the chimpanzees of Gombe
>> National Park, Tanzania, it was thought that
>> chimpanzees were strictly vegetarian. In fact, when
>> Goodall first reported this behavior, many people
>> were skeptical and claimed that meat was not a
>> natural part of the chimpanzee diet. Today, hunting
>> by chimpanzees at Gombe has been well documented
>> (Teleki 1973; Goodall 1986), and hunting has also
>> been observed at most other sites in Africa where
>> chimpanzees have been studied, including Mahale
>> Mountains National Park (Uehara et al. 1992) (also
>> in Tanzania) and Tai National Park in Ivory Coast in
>> West Africa (Boesch and Boesch 1989). At Gombe, we
>> now know that chimpanzees may kill and eat more than
>> 150 small and medium sized animals such as monkeys,
>> wild pigs and small antelopes each year.
>> http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~stanford/chimphunt.html
>>
>>
>> Craig Stanford is the foremost expert in chimpanzee
>> behavior today.

>
> I wonder if he has much experience with lesser/lower primates like Lesley.


Sure. She's like the colubus monkeys the chimps like
to eat.
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Default Humans eat a lot of insects, too ( Gorillas as well as chimpanzeeseat a lot of insects)

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/as....ap/index.html
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Default Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian??

On Feb 22, 5:30 pm, Charlie Pendejo > wrote:
>
>
> Why do you say that?


Because excuses are usually only made when one isn't at all interested
in the first place.

> If your concern is for the animal's experience - you yourself used the
> word "empathy" - why do you then throw up your hands and say that the
> animal's experience is irrelevant and what really matters is following
> a simplistic black-and-white rule?


But I haven't said that at all. I think I summed it up quite
succinctly by noting that it all just comes down to whether you would
like that being done to you. That's all.

> Supposing hypothetically that you or I were faced with the
> incontestable choice to either live a full and happy life which ended
> around age ninety with an unjust and intentional, but quick and
> painless, assassination, versus a radically shortened lifespan as a
> tortured and malnourished hostage locked in a filthy closet for
> fifteen years before the same execution.
>
> I might be a little ****ed off about my life being terminated with a
> bullet through the brain (and even here, I think there's an enormous
> difference between living daily with the horrible advanced knowledge
> of this vs. its happening with no warning or understanding of it), but
> I sure as hell know I wouldn't shrug and say, "toss a coin, after all
> the distinction is simply a lawyer's game."
>
> You? If you were making the choice for yourself, or for me, or a
> relative or loved one?


What? How is your tangent at all related to the discussion we had
been on?

> Nope, sorry but that's projection. That's actually you with "only
> people with a biochemical imbalance want to, and therefore engage in,
> exercise".


You can dismiss anything out of hand -- "any excuse will serve a
tyrant" -- but the fact remains that empathy is what makes us human,
and it is our humanity which makes us imagine an animal's fate as
being one which we would not wish on ourselves.

> Boil everything down to a simple yes/no black/white question, and good
> luck leading a satisfying life.


You can dismiss anything for whatever reason, but facts are stubborn
things, and human empathy is a fact. This empathy, by its very
nature, extends out from ourselves to others, whether that be
foreigners or even non-humans.

> Yes, one would need his head buried pretty deeply in the sand to
> ignore all this.
>
> Same time, one's head must also be buried in some other dark place to
> see one's only reasonable response as being total submission to every
> whim, because, hey, ya just can't fight determinism.


It's a fundamental misunderstanding of the world which posits, I
quote, "simple yes/no black/white"...the issue isn't between
determinism and free will. As a matter of fact, there is no struggle
at all, no dichotomy between our sense of ourselves as determining our
own actions and those actions being informed by genetic dispositions.

> Heh, you've got it all figured out, eh?


Why does a questioning attitude suggest a knowing one to you?

> Listen, we've had heroin for decades. Why not go out in a blaze of
> neurotransmittorial satisfaction right now, rather than endure more
> odious years of wage slavery, chores, physical demands, and all the
> other slings and arrows of this primitive all-too-human early twenty-
> first century life? Why wait for some technologically equivalent
> dystopia?


Who's waiting?

> Seriously, why not heroin?


Why?

> Or the myth of Sisyphus to a modern deterministic dystopian.


Sisyphus indeed -- he rolled the rock simply because the Gods, in
their empathy, caused him to enjoy it. It was not his "free will" to
somehow rewire his brain to the task.
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Default Meat is a prominent part of chimpanzee diet; pre-human hominids ate meat for 2.25 million years (biologically adapted to meat)

On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 16:50:40 -0000, "pearl" > wrote:

> wrote in message u...
>
>> "Chimpanzees' habitat been increasingly encroached upon,
>> destroyed, and fragmented by human activites. This has
>> undeniably caused an increase in population in remaining
>> habitat, and thus increased competition for the available
>> resources. This is why the earlier studies more reliably
>> reflect primates' natural dietary preferences and habits."
>>
>> This begs the question and is a tautology ,ie. the snake chasing its
>> logical tail.

>
>There has to be a logical reason for the discrepancies.


When they begin to eat meat they find out it tastes good
and it probably makes them feel good too, so after they
start they're likely to continue when they can.

>'During the 1980s, Africa lost an estimated 47 million
>hectares of forest. By 1995 another 19 million hectares
>had been lost, according to FAO,..
>..
> In forested areas, patches of logging, agricultural advance
>and unsustainable harvesting of fuelwood and non-timber
>products fragment and degrade remaining forests.
>Fragmentation leads to loss of contact with part of the
>ecosystem necessary to maintain regeneration and full
>biodiversity. Many species need large and diverse areas.
>Others depend on other species, living in the border areas
>of the ecosystem or species being hunted or harvested.
>Thus, very few entire forest ecosystems, frontier forests
>keep existing.
>
>Worldwide, 80% of original forest cover has been cleared,
>fragmented, or otherwise degraded in the 20th century. In
>the Atlantic rainforests of Brazil, the West African rainforests,
>Madagascar, and Sumatra - some of the richest biological
>treasure houses of the world - much less than 10% of the
>original forest cover is left. There, many populations of
>plants and animals are losing their long-term viability through
>fragmentation and genetic erosion. A wave of extinctions is
>just around the corner - unless "radical" action is taken.
>
>http://www.afrol.com/features/10278
>
>> Chimps eat meat, do so with great energy and relish consuming it.

>
>Not according to earlier studies, nor all recent studies.


According to these they certainly appear to:
__________________________________________________ _______
[...]
In the American Scientist article, Stanford describes witnessing the largest massacre
ever documented at Gombe. Two hunting parties with a total of 33 chimps - two of
them swollen females - converged on a group of 25 colobus monkeys. The male chimps
chased and shook the monkeys from trees, eventually killing seven. Before Stanford's
eyes, a large male chimp plucked a baby monkey from a branch and "dispatched it with
a bite to the skull." The chimp then approached a swollen female with the carcass,
dangling it just out of her reach until she presented her swelling. Only after copulation
did the male share his food.

"An important issue today in human male-female relationships is control," Stanford said.
"What we're seeing is the evolutionary roots of this kind of mutual attempt to manipulate
and control. Male chimps are using meat to control female behavior and female chimps
are making use of their reproductive system to get meat."
[...]
http://www.usc.edu/ext-relations/new...tml/chimp.html
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
[...]
We might look toward the social aspects of chimpanzee societies to understand their hunting
patterns. One clue to the significance of meat in a chimpanzee society comes from the observation
that males do most of the hunting. During the past decade, adult and adolescent males made over 90
percent of the kills at Gombe. Although females occasionally hunt, they more often receive a share of
meat from the male who captured the prey.

This state of affairs sets up an interesting dynamic between males and females. Sometimes a begging
female does not receive any meat until after the male copulates with her (even while clutching the
freshly killed carcass). Some other observations are also telling. Not only does the size of a hunting
party increase in proportion to the number of estrous females present, but the presence of an estrous
female independently increases the likelihood that there will be a hunt. Such observations suggest that
male chimpanzees use meat as a tool to gain access to sexually receptive females. But females appear
to be getting reproductive benefits as well: William McGrew of Miami University in Ohio showed that
female chimpanzees at Gombe that receive generous shares of meat produce more offspring that
survive.

The distribution of the kill to other male chimpanzees also hints at another social role for meat. The
Japanese primatologist Toshisada Nishida and his colleagues in the Mahale Mountains showed that
the alpha male Ntilogi distributes meat to his allies but consistently withholds it from his rivals. Such
behavior, they suggest, reveals that meat can be used as a political tool in chimpanzee society.
Further studies should tell us whether such actions have consequences for alliances between males.
[...]
http://www.sigmaxi.org/amsci/article...ford-full.html
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
__________________________________________________ _______
[...]
Based on new insights into the behavior of chimps and other great apes, our
now extinct human ancestors, and existing hunting and gathering societies,
Stanford shows the remarkable role that meat has played in these societies.
Perhaps because it provides a highly concentrated source of
protein--essential for the development and health of the brain--meat is
craved by many primates, including humans. This craving has given meat
genuine power--the power to cause males to form hunting parties and
organize entire cultures around hunting. And it has given men the power to
manipulate and control women in these cultures. Stanford argues that the
skills developed and required for successful hunting and especially the
sharing of meat spurred the explosion of human brain size over the past
200,000 years. He then turns his attention to the ways meat is shared within
primate and human societies to argue that this all-important activity has had
profound effects on basic social structures that are still felt today.
[...]
http://www.pup.princeton.edu/titles/6549.html
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
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Default Meat is a prominent part of chimpanzee diet; pre-human hominids ate meat for 2.25 million years (biologically adapted to meat)

<dh@.> wrote in message ...

> Based on new insights into the behavior of chimps and other great apes, our
> now extinct human ancestors, and existing hunting and gathering societies,
> Stanford shows the remarkable role that meat has played in these societies.
> Perhaps because it provides a highly concentrated source of
> protein--essential for the development and health of the brain--meat is
> craved by many primates, including humans.


'The big problem we have before us in the meat industry is to
how to reduce the levels of fat in meat without leaving it dry
and tasteless when we eat it. Fat contributes a lot of taste to
meat, particularly those flavours that allow us to recognize
one species from another. Without it, we may end up with
just a bland, general meaty taste. '
http://www.aps.uoguelph.ca/~swatland/ch2_4.htm

'Measuring Brain Activity In People Eating Chocolate Offers
New Clues About How The Body Becomes Addicted

CHICAGO --- Using positron emission tomography scans to
measure brain activity in people eating chocolate, a team of U.S.
and Canadian neuroscientists believe they have identified areas
of the brain that may underlie addiction and eating disorders.

Dana Small, assistant professor of neurology at Northwestern
University Medical School, and colleagues found that individuals'
ratings of the pleasantness of eating chocolate were associated
with increased blood flow in areas of the brain, particularly in
the orbital frontal cortex and midbrain, that are also activated
by addictive drugs such as cocaine.
...
According to Small, a primary reinforcer is a stimulus that an
individual doesn't have to learn to like but, rather, is enjoyed
from birth. Addictive drugs can be viewed as primary
reinforcers. Fat and sweet also are primary reinforcers, and
chocolate is chock full of fat and sweet, Small said.
...
Small explained that studying the brain's response to eating a
highly rewarding food such as chocolate provides an effective
"in-health" model of addiction. "
...'
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0829082943.htm

> This craving has given meat
> genuine power--the power to cause males to form hunting parties and
> organize entire cultures around hunting. And it has given men the power to
> manipulate and control women in these cultures. Stanford argues that the
> skills developed and required for successful hunting and especially the
> sharing of meat spurred the explosion of human brain size over the past
> 200,000 years. He then turns his attention to the ways meat is shared within
> primate and human societies to argue that this all-important activity has had
> profound effects on basic social structures that are still felt today.


So why don't those hunting, flesh-eating chimpanzees have a larger brain?
Why don't true predators like lions and wolves have ultra-massive brains?

> [...]
> http://www.pup.princeton.edu/titles/6549.html
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯





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Default Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian??

"Rudy Canoza" > wrote in message ...
> pearl wrote:
> > > wrote in message u...
> >>> ...
> >>>>>> The PBS science show Nova had this week a show on chimps. Not only did
> >>>>>> they eat meat with great relish they did so at every opportunity.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> They had invented a kind of spear to kill animals to eat. They hunt
> >>>>>> with group cooperation and share the meat among themselves.
> >>>>> Where?
> >>>> In their entire range.
> >>> 'Relating Chimpanzee Diets to Potential Australopithecine Diets
> >>> Conklin-Brittain, Nancy Lou
> >>> Wrangham, Richard W.
> >>>
> >>> We report data using an ape model to reconstruct the nutrient
> >>> composition of the frugivorous diet of our last common ancestor
> >>> with African great apes. We aimed to determine whether the
> >>> African ape clade, from which hominids evolved, has any unusual
> >>> features. We studied frugivory by comparing chimpanzee diets to
> >>> that of three species of cercopithecine monkeys in Kibale Forest,
> >>> Uganda.
> >>>
> >>> Data came from a 12-month period that showed inter-monthly
> >>> variation in fruit abundance. The monkeys consumed stable
> >>> nutrient levels except for lipid, which was low (3.2 +/- 2.0 %
> >>> dry matter (DM)), but peaked at about 9% DM during ripe fruit
> >>> abundance. Chimpanzees also consumed low lipid and sugar diets
> >>> during fruit poor seasons. Protein intake reflected each species'
> >>> fallback food: leaf consumption kept the protein levels high for
> >>> monkeys (16.7 +/- 1.9% DM); chimpanzees relied on herbaceous
> >>> piths and maintained a low protein intake (9.5 +/- 3.0% DM).
> >>> Fallback food was probably also responsible for the high fiber
> >>> (NDF) intakes by monkeys, which was not significantly different
> >> >from chimpanzees' (32.4 +/- 3.6% NDF versus 33.6 +/- 4.5%
> >>> NDF respectively).
> >>>
> >>> Three conclusions emerge: fat intake was low for all frugivores,
> >>> protein intake was low for chimpanzees, and fiber intake was high
> >>> for all species. Our data (from a lipid-poor habitat) show that
> >>> high lipid or high protein is not needed for normal health and
> >>> reproduction of chimpanzees. Therefore, hominids were probably
> >>> capable of living on a low-fat, low-protein diet such as would be
> >>> provided by fibrous roots commonly found in a seasonal woodland
> >>> environment.
> >>>
> >>>
http://www.cast.uark.edu/local/icaes...onklin/abstrac
> >>> t.html
> >> In science the answers one gets is a function of the questions one asks.
> >> Tabove does not answer the question do chimps eat meat with grea relish,
> >> share it among themselves, produce tools to hunt animals, and hunt
> >> cooperatively.
> >>
> >> The above was asking about proportions of macro nutrients and seasonal
> >> feeding habits.

> >
> > And hunting wasn't mentioned. Neither was eating insects.

>
> Because they weren't trying to answer questions about
> that. Those studies did *not* say that chimpanzees do
> not eat meat or insects.


'It is generally accepted that modern humans evolved from
some chimpanzee-like ancestor (Pilbeam, 1996). Consequently
we use our data on the nutritional ecology of modern
chimpanzees to draw conclusions about how nutrition, and
in particular, how macronutrient chemistry, may have been
involved in human evolution. We will be discussing only the
plant component of the diet; although modern chimpanzees
are omnivorous (Teleki, 1981 [Gombe NP]), plant foods
provided the great majority of the food seen eaten by these
primates during our year-long study (ca. 99%).
...'
http://www.cast.uark.edu/local/icaes...n/conklin.html

'In summary it appears that underground roots and tubers
would make an important nutritional addition to the diet of
Australopithecus, who might have been able to live exclusively
on roots and tubers during short periods of above-ground
food scarcity. Furthermore, the dental and microwear patterns
exhibited by Australopithecus are compatible with the
additions of roots to a chimpanzee-likediet (Hatley and
Kappelman, 1980; Grine and Kay, 1988). They would not
have needed additional protein supplement to top-up their
protein intake to safe levels. In addition, the lower fiber values
would improve the quality of their diet. This does not imply
that a need to decrease fiber in the diet was a driving force in
the evolution of the hominid diet. However, with the
serendipitous addition of underground storage organs to the
Australopithecus diet and the resulting increase in the nutrient
density of the diet, the stage was set for Homo to further
reduce fiber levels and further improving the nutrient quality
of their diet.'
...'
http://www.cast.uark.edu/local/icaes...n/conklin.html

But:

'Modern humans do not have high protein or fat requirements,
as already mentioned. The value of 9.5% CP in the chimpanzee
diet in our study is consistent with the prediction by Oftedal
(1990) that all primates should have relatively low protein
requirements because they have slow growth rates compared
to other mammals (Case, 1978). Although a need for protein
or fat is often assumed to explain increasing amounts of
hunting throughout hominid evolution, primates do not have
metabolic demands for high levels of protein or fat.
...'
http://www.cast.uark.edu/local/icaes...n/conklin.html

And:

'There appears to be no threshold of plant-food enrichment or
minimization of fat intake beyond which further disease prevention
does not occur. These findings suggest that even small intakes of
foods of animal origin are associated with significant increases in
plasma cholesterol concentrations, which are associated, in turn,
with significant increases in chronic degenerative disease mortality
rates. - Campbell TC, Junshi C. Diet and chronic degenerative
diseases: perspectives from China. Am J Clin Nutr 1994 May;59
(5 Suppl):1153S-1161S.'


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Default Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian??

"Rudy Canoza" > wrote in message ...
> pearl wrote:
> > > wrote in message u...
> >
> >> "scavenging, *not* hunting. Our review of the archaeology yields
> >> results"
> >>
> >> In the question of when and why pre-humans added meat as part of their
> >> feeding strategy, the above is a difference without a distinction. Meat
> >> was part of the diet and has continued to be so eversince.

> >
> > Some humans...

>
> Meat has been an essential part of the diet of all
> human societies, and of the vast, overwhelming majority
> of individual human beings.
>
> Humans eat meat: at all times and places.


'Gut Morphology and the Avoidance of Carrion among
Chimpanzees, Baboons, and Early Hominids
Sonia Ragir, Martin Rosenberg, Philip Tierno
Journal of Anthropological Research, Vol. 56, No. 4
(Winter, 2000), pp. 477-512

Abstract

Meat-eating primates avoid scavenging for dietary protein
and micronutrients even when carrion is relatively fresh.
Chimpanzees, baboons, and modern hunter-gatherers
supplement their diets of high-energy, low-protein fruit with
protein obtained from leaves, insects, and animal prey. Most
primates, especially leaf-eating primates, digest the cellulose
cell walls of ingested plant material in a well developed
caecum and/or large intestine through fermentation caused
by enzymes released by their normal gut flora. The primate
digestive strategy combines a rapid passage through the
stomach and prolonged digestion in the ileum of the small
intestine and caecum, and this combination increases the
likelihood of colonization of the small intestine by ingested
bacteria that are the cause of gastrointestinal disease.
Carrion is very quickly contaminated with a high bacterial
load because the process of dismemberment of a carcass
exposes the meat to the bacteria from the saliva of the
predator, from the digestive tracts of insects, and from
the carcasses' own gut. Thus, the opportunistic eating of
uncooked carrion or even unusually large quantities of
fresh-killed meat by nonhuman primates or humans is
likely to result in gastrointestinal illness. We propose that
among meat-eating primates, carrion avoidance is a dietary
strategy that develops during their lifetime as a response to
the association of gastrointestinal illness with the ingestion
of contaminated meat from scavenged carcasses. This has
important implications for our understanding of early
hominid behavior.

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=009...3E2.0.CO%3B2-M

'Brown says that pushing the emergence of Homo sapiens from
about 160,000 years ago back to about 195,000 years ago "is
significant because the cultural aspects of humanity in most cases
appear much later in the record - only 50,000 years ago - which
would mean 150,000 years of Homo sapiens without cultural stuff,
such as evidence of eating fish, of harpoons, anything to do with
music (flutes and that sort of thing), needles, even tools. This
stuff all comes in very late, except for stone knife blades, which
appeared between 50,000 and 200,000 years ago, depending on
whom you believe."

Fleagle adds: "There is a huge debate in the archeological literature
regarding the first appearance of modern aspects of behavior such
as bone carving for religious reasons, or tools (harpoons and things),
ornamentation (bead jewelry and such), drawn images, arrowheads.
They only appear as a coherent package about 50,000 years ago,
and the first modern humans that left Africa between 50,000 and
40,000 years ago seem to have had the full set. As modern human
anatomy is documented at earlier and earlier sites, it becomes
evident that there was a great time gap between the appearance of
the modern skeleton and 'modern behavior.'"
...
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0223122209.htm

'In a position paper by the American Dietetic Association entitled
"Position paper on the vegetarian approach to eating", the protein
myth is indirectly addressed. In one section it is stated that "the
A.D.A. recognizes that most of mankind for much of human history
has subsisted on near-vegetarian diets. The vast majority of the
population of the world today continues to eat vegetarian or semi-
vegetarian diets..."
...'
http://www.uga.edu/vegsoc/news1_2.html


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Default Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian??

> >> "scavenging, *not* hunting. Our review of the archaeology yields
> >> results"
> >>
> >> In the question of when and why pre-humans added meat as part of

their
>he above is a difference without a distinction. Meat
> >> was part of the diet and has continued to be so eversince.

> >
> > Some humans...

>
> Meat has been an essential part of the diet of all
> human societies, and of the vast, overwhelming majority
> of individual human beings.
>
> Humans eat meat: at all times and places.


"'Gut Morphology and the Avoidance of Carrion among Chimpanzees,
Baboons, and Early Hominids"

So which is it, you were the source of the first above concerning
"scavenging, is it "scavenging or hunting? Or was it both according to
size of animal and ease of trapping etc. such as the small animals the
chimps and hunter gatherers of historical humans used in many places?
Why should humans hesitate to use meat freshly killed by other animals?

It makes no difference, there is evidence of different kinds that the
pre-human line of hominids was using meat regardless of speculation of
method of aacquisition at least 2million years ago. There is a
continuing line of evidence that that has never stopped. As the
technology for hunting appeared "scavenging need not have been a large
source if at all.
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Default Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian??

> >> "scavenging, *not* hunting. Our review of the archaeology yields
> >> results"
> >>
> >> In the question of when and why pre-humans added meat as part of

their
>he above is a difference without a distinction. Meat
> >> was part of the diet and has continued to be so eversince.

> >
> > Some humans...

>
> Meat has been an essential part of the diet of all
> human societies, and of the vast, overwhelming majority
> of individual human beings.
>
> Humans eat meat: at all times and places.


'Gut Morphology and the Avoidance of Carrion among
Chimpanzees, Baboons, and Early Hominids
> >> In science the answers one gets is a function of the questions one

asks.
> >> Tabove does not answer the question do chimps eat meat with grea

relish,
> >> share it among themselvesunt animals, and hunt
> >> cooperatively.
> >>
> >> The above was asking about proportions of macro nutrients and

seasonal
> >> feeding habits.

> >
> > And hunting wasn't mentioned. Neither was eating insects.

>
> Because they weren't trying to answer questions about
> that. Those studies did *not* say that chimpanzees do
> not eat meat or insects.


The studies, and any study for that matter, answer the questions asked.
If one wants the literature is full of examples where the question of
meat is asked and and answered for multiple locations for chimps. You
make a tempest in a teapot.

"'It is generally accepted that modern humans evolved from some
chimpanzee-like ancestor (Pilbeam, 1996). Consequently we use our data
on the nutritional ecology of modern chimpanzees to draw conclusions
about how nutrition, and in particular, how macronutrient chemistry, may
have been

involved in human evolution. We will be discussing only the
plant component of the diet; although modern chimpanzees
are omnivorous (Teleki, 1981 [Gombe NP]), plant foods
provided the great majority of the food seen eaten by these
primates during our year-long study (ca. 99%)."

No problem, the chimp like critter and the human line departed ways 5 or
so million years ago and any examination of modern chimp dietary habits
can only speak to them and the environment in which they live.

Chimps eat meat and do so with relish, make tools specifically to humt
animals and hunt cooperativly and then share the meat among themselves.
The percent is quite irrelevant. If one wants to make something of
chimps with regard to humans and hominids in general the case swings
both ways; meat is involved and can not be denied.

You strive to swallow a camel and manage just to swallow a gnat.
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Default Meat is a prominent part of chimpanzee diet; pre-human hominids ate meat for 2.25 million years (biologically adapted to meat)

> This craving has given meat
> genuine power--the power to cause males to form hunting parties and
> organize entire cultures around hunting. And it has given men the

power to
> manipulate and control women in these cultures. Stanford argues that

the
> skills developed and required for successful hunting and especially

the
> sharing of meat spurred the explosion of human brain size over the

past
> 200,000 years. He then turns his attention to the ways meat is shared

within
> primate and human societies to argue that this all-important activity

has had
> profound effects on basic social structures that are still felt today.


"So why don't those hunting, flesh-eating chimpanzees have a larger
brain? Why don't true predators like lions and wolves have ultra-massive
brains?"

I do so wish you would stick to a point and not ask irrelevant
questions. There is an entireliterature concerning the interelated
factors of environment, anatomy, and behaviors and human evolution that
answers your question. A person first needs to know something about a
field of study more then a few slivers of info from here and there to
even ask relevant questions.

There is no way to slice and dice the evidence to make round peg fit the
square hole you desire. Use of meat as a dietary source is related to
human evolution, the rise of culturally bsed behaviors and human history
of population movement out of africa .


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Default Meat is a prominent part of chimpanzee diet; pre-human hominids ate meat for 2.25 million years (biologically adapted to meat)

> wrote in message u...
> > This craving has given meat
> > genuine power--the power to cause males to form hunting parties and
> > organize entire cultures around hunting. And it has given men the

> power to
> > manipulate and control women in these cultures. Stanford argues that

> the
> > skills developed and required for successful hunting and especially

> the
> > sharing of meat spurred the explosion of human brain size over the

> past
> > 200,000 years. He then turns his attention to the ways meat is shared

> within
> > primate and human societies to argue that this all-important activity

> has had
> > profound effects on basic social structures that are still felt today.

>
> "So why don't those hunting, flesh-eating chimpanzees have a larger
> brain? Why don't true predators like lions and wolves have ultra-massive
> brains?"
>
> I do so wish you would stick to a point and not ask irrelevant
> questions. There is an entireliterature concerning the interelated
> factors of environment, anatomy, and behaviors and human evolution that
> answers your question. A person first needs to know something about a
> field of study more then a few slivers of info from here and there to
> even ask relevant questions.
>
> There is no way to slice and dice the evidence to make round peg fit the
> square hole you desire. Use of meat as a dietary source is related to
> human evolution, the rise of culturally bsed behaviors and human history
> of population movement out of africa .


It's also related to the evolution, team-work, cooperation, food-sharing
and what-not of natural predators like wolves and lions. So what gives?




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Default Meat is a prominent part of chimpanzee diet; pre-human hominids ate meat for 2.25 million years (biologically adapted to meat)

> "So why don't those hunting, flesh-eating chimpanzees have a larger
> brain? Why don't true predators like lions and wolves have

ultra-massive
> brains?"
>
> I do so wish you would stick to a point and not ask irrelevant
> questions. There is an entireliterature concerning the interelated
> factors of environment, anatomy, and behaviors and human evolution

that
> answers your question. A person first needs to know something about a
> field of study more then a few slivers of info from here and there to
> even ask relevant questions.
>
> There is no way to slice and dice the evidence to make round peg fit

the
> square hole you desire. Use of meat as a dietary source is related to
> human evolution, the rise of culturally bsed behaviors and human

history
> of population movement out of africa .


"It's also related to the evolution, team-work, cooperation,
food-sharing and what-not of natural predators like wolves and lions.
So what gives?:"

The observation that those species like humans adopted many of the same
general features of hunting meat. Porposes and killer whales etc. also
do similar things.

While humans share similarities it is not by itself a limiting factor
that human evolution took a specific path based on the early behavioral
ground work all such hunting species share.

Humans as an evolutionary step went more in the direction of a learned
basis for behavior,ie. culture, as their specific adaptive method.

In the case of hunting and gathering it gave them an added advantage
over othr species and other primates which quickly became dominate and a
successful direction to allow domination of all areas.


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Default Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian??

> wrote in message u...
> > >> "scavenging, *not* hunting. Our review of the archaeology yields
> > >> results"
> > >>
> > >> In the question of when and why pre-humans added meat as part of

> their
> >he above is a difference without a distinction. Meat
> > >> was part of the diet and has continued to be so eversince.
> > >
> > > Some humans...

> >
> > Meat has been an essential part of the diet of all
> > human societies, and of the vast, overwhelming majority
> > of individual human beings.
> >
> > Humans eat meat: at all times and places.

>
> 'Gut Morphology and the Avoidance of Carrion among
> Chimpanzees, Baboons, and Early Hominids
> > >> In science the answers one gets is a function of the questions one

> asks.
> > >> Tabove does not answer the question do chimps eat meat with grea

> relish,
> > >> share it among themselvesunt animals, and hunt
> > >> cooperatively.
> > >>
> > >> The above was asking about proportions of macro nutrients and

> seasonal
> > >> feeding habits.
> > >
> > > And hunting wasn't mentioned. Neither was eating insects.

> >
> > Because they weren't trying to answer questions about
> > that. Those studies did *not* say that chimpanzees do
> > not eat meat or insects.

>
> The studies, and any study for that matter, answer the questions asked.
> If one wants the literature is full of examples where the question of
> meat is asked and and answered for multiple locations for chimps. You
> make a tempest in a teapot.


Humans aren't natural opportunistic scavengers. Clearly.

> "'It is generally accepted that modern humans evolved from some
> chimpanzee-like ancestor (Pilbeam, 1996). Consequently we use our data
> on the nutritional ecology of modern chimpanzees to draw conclusions
> about how nutrition, and in particular, how macronutrient chemistry, may
> have been
>
> involved in human evolution. We will be discussing only the
> plant component of the diet; although modern chimpanzees
> are omnivorous (Teleki, 1981 [Gombe NP]), plant foods
> provided the great majority of the food seen eaten by these
> primates during our year-long study (ca. 99%)."
>
> No problem, the chimp like critter and the human line departed ways 5 or
> so million years ago and any examination of modern chimp dietary habits
> can only speak to them and the environment in which they live.


Key word being "environment".

"Studies of frugivorous communities elsewhere suggest that dietary
divergence is highest when preferred food (succulent fruit) is scarce,
and that niche separation is clear only at such times (Gautier-Hion
& Gautier 1979: Terborgh 1983). " Foraging profiles of sympatric
lowland gorillas and chimpanzees in the Lopé Reserve, Gabon, p.179,
Philosophical Transactions: Biological Sciences vol 334, 159-295,
No. 1270.

> Chimps eat meat and do so with relish,


Fat is a primary reinforcer.

> make tools specifically to humt
> animals and hunt cooperativly and then share the meat among themselves.
> The percent is quite irrelevant.


It is relevant to our knowledge of frugivores' natural diet.

> If one wants to make something of
> chimps with regard to humans and hominids in general the case swings
> both ways; meat is involved and can not be denied.


Insignificantly, for the most part, if at all.

> You strive to swallow a camel and manage just to swallow a gnat.


mmmmmm.......



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Default Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian??

> wrote in message u...

> > >> "scavenging, *not* hunting. Our review of the archaeology yields
> > >> results"
> > >>
> > >> In the question of when and why pre-humans added meat as part of

> their
> >he above is a difference without a distinction. Meat
> > >> was part of the diet and has continued to be so eversince.
> > >
> > > Some humans...

> >
> > Meat has been an essential part of the diet of all
> > human societies, and of the vast, overwhelming majority
> > of individual human beings.
> >
> > Humans eat meat: at all times and places.

>
> "'Gut Morphology and the Avoidance of Carrion among Chimpanzees,
> Baboons, and Early Hominids"
>
> So which is it, you were the source of the first above concerning
> "scavenging,


In the context of competitive male displays, remember.

> is it "scavenging or hunting?


Low-yield scavenging.

> Or was it both according to
> size of animal and ease of trapping etc. such as the small animals the
> chimps and hunter gatherers of historical humans used in many places?


Is there any evidence for that in the fossil record, namely,
aggregation of processed bones at hominid home bases?

> Why should humans hesitate to use meat freshly killed by other animals?


'Carrion is very quickly contaminated with a high bacterial
load because the process of dismemberment of a carcass
exposes the meat to the bacteria from the saliva of the
predator, from the digestive tracts of insects, and from
the carcasses' own gut. "

> It makes no difference, there is evidence of different kinds that the
> pre-human line of hominids was using meat regardless of speculation of
> method of aacquisition at least 2million years ago. There is a
> continuing line of evidence that that has never stopped. As the
> technology for hunting appeared "scavenging need not have been a large
> source if at all.


<restore>

'Brown says that pushing the emergence of Homo sapiens from
about 160,000 years ago back to about 195,000 years ago "is
significant because the cultural aspects of humanity in most cases
appear much later in the record - only 50,000 years ago - which
would mean 150,000 years of Homo sapiens without cultural stuff,
such as evidence of eating fish, of harpoons, anything to do with
music (flutes and that sort of thing), needles, even tools. This
stuff all comes in very late, except for stone knife blades, which
appeared between 50,000 and 200,000 years ago, depending on
whom you believe."

Fleagle adds: "There is a huge debate in the archeological literature
regarding the first appearance of modern aspects of behavior such
as bone carving for religious reasons, or tools (harpoons and things),
ornamentation (bead jewelry and such), drawn images, arrowheads.
They only appear as a coherent package about 50,000 years ago,
and the first modern humans that left Africa between 50,000 and
40,000 years ago seem to have had the full set. As modern human
anatomy is documented at earlier and earlier sites, it becomes
evident that there was a great time gap between the appearance of
the modern skeleton and 'modern behavior.'"
...
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0223122209.htm


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Default Meat is a prominent part of chimpanzee diet; pre-human hominids ate meat for 2.25 million years (biologically adapted to meat)

> wrote in message u...
> > "So why don't those hunting, flesh-eating chimpanzees have a larger
> > brain? Why don't true predators like lions and wolves have

> ultra-massive
> > brains?"
> >
> > I do so wish you would stick to a point and not ask irrelevant
> > questions. There is an entireliterature concerning the interelated
> > factors of environment, anatomy, and behaviors and human evolution

> that
> > answers your question. A person first needs to know something about a
> > field of study more then a few slivers of info from here and there to
> > even ask relevant questions.
> >
> > There is no way to slice and dice the evidence to make round peg fit

> the
> > square hole you desire. Use of meat as a dietary source is related to
> > human evolution, the rise of culturally bsed behaviors and human

> history
> > of population movement out of africa .

>
> "It's also related to the evolution, team-work, cooperation,
> food-sharing and what-not of natural predators like wolves and lions.
> So what gives?:"
>
> The observation that those species like humans adopted many of the same
> general features of hunting meat.


If that's the case, then why don't such predators have huge brains?

> Porposes and killer whales etc. also do similar things.
>
> While humans share similarities it is not by itself a limiting factor
> that human evolution took a specific path based on the early behavioral
> ground work all such hunting species share.


'The Relevance of Carnivore Behavior to the Study of Early Hominids
George B. Schaller, Gordon R. Lowther
Southwestern Journal of Anthropology, Vol. 25, No. 4
(Winter, 1969), pp. 307-341

Abstract

Attempts have been made to deduce the social life of early hominids
by means of the comparative study of non-human primates. But
since social systems are strongly influenced by ecological conditions,
it seemed that it might be more productive to compare hominids with
animals which are ecologically but not necessarily phylogenetically
similar, such as the social carnivores. The group dynamics,
dominance hierarchies, land tenure systems, co-operative hunting
techniques, and the like of the wolf, wild dog, hyena, and lion were
compared with those of contemporary hunter-gatherers and, by
inference, those of early hominids. It was concluded that the selective
forces shaping human society were in many respects different from
those that influenced non-human primates, especially with respect to
co-operative hunting, food-sharing, and the division of labor. Field
experiments were made in Tanzania to ascertain the relative
importance of scavenging and hunting in the subsistence of hominids.

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=003...3E2.0.CO%3B2-K

> Humans as an evolutionary step went more in the direction of a learned
> basis for behavior,ie. culture, as their specific adaptive method.


'Medical News Today
Main Category: Biology/Biochemistry News
Article Date: 20 Feb 2006 - 0:00am (UK)

Humans Evolved To Be Peaceful, Cooperative And Social
Animals, Not Predators

by Neil Schoenherr
Washington University in St. Louis

You wouldn't know it by current world events, but humans
actually evolved to be peaceful, cooperative and social animals,
not the predators modern mythology would have us believe,
says an anthropologist at Washington University in St. Louis.

Robert W. Sussman, Ph.D., professor anthropology in Arts &
Sciences, spoke at a press briefing, "Early Humans on the Menu,"
during the American Association for the Advancement of the
Science's Annual Meeting at 2 p.m. on Feb. 18.

Also scheduled to speak at the briefing were Karen Strier,
University of Wisconsin; Agustin Fuentes, University of Notre
Dame; Douglas Fry, Abo Akademi University in Helsinki and
University of Arizona; and James Rilling, Emory University.

In his latest book, "Man the Hunted: Primates, Predators and
Human Evolution," Sussman goes against the prevailing view
and argues that primates, including early humans, evolved not
as hunters but as prey of many predators, including wild dogs
and cats, hyenas, eagles and crocodiles.

Despite popular theories posed in research papers and popular
literature, early man was not an aggressive killer, Sussman argues.
He poses a new theory, based on the fossil record and living
primate species, that primates have been prey for millions of
years, a fact that greatly influenced the evolution of early man.

"Our intelligence, cooperation and many other features we have
as modern humans developed from our attempts to out-smart
the predator," says Sussman.

Since the 1924 discovery of the first early humans, australopithicenes,
which lived from seven million years ago to two million years ago,
many scientists theorized that those early human ancestors were
hunters and possessed a killer instinct.

The idea of "Man the Hunter" is the generally accepted paradigm
of human evolution, says Sussman, "It developed from a basic
Judeo-Christian ideology of man being inherently evil, aggressive
and a natural killer. In fact, when you really examine the fossil
and living non-human primate evidence, that is just not the case."

Sussman's research is based on studying the fossil evidence
dating back nearly seven million years. "Most theories on Man
the Hunter fail to incorporate this key fossil evidence," Sussman
says. "We wanted evidence, not just theory.

We thoroughly examined literature available on the skulls,
bones, footprints and on environmental evidence, both of our
hominid ancestors and the predators that coexisted with them."

Since the process of human evolution is so long and varied,
Sussman and his co-author, Donna L. Hart, decided to focus
their research on one specific species, Australopithecus
afarensis, which lived between five million and two and a half
million years ago and is one of the better known early human
species. Most paleontologists agree that Australopithecus
afarensis is the common link between fossils that came before
and those that came after. It shares dental, cranial and skeletal
traits with both. It's also a very well-represented species in the
fossil record.

"Australopithecus afarensis was probably quite strong, like a
small ape," Sussman says. Adults ranged from around 3 to 5
feet and they weighed 60-100 pounds. They were basically
smallish bipedal primates. Their teeth were relatively small, very
much like modern humans, and they were fruit and nut eaters.

But what Sussman and Hart discovered is that Australopithecus
afarensis was not dentally pre-adapted to eat meat.

"It didn't have the sharp shearing blades necessary to retain and
cut such foods," Sussman says. "These early humans simply
couldn't eat meat. If they couldn't eat meat, why would they hunt?"

It was not possible for early humans to consume a large amount
of meat until fire was controlled and cooking was possible.

Sussman points out that the first tools didn't appear until two
million years ago. And there wasn't good evidence of fire until
after 800,000 years ago. "In fact, some archaeologists and
paleontologists don't think we had a modern, systematic method
of hunting until as recently as 60,000 years ago," he says.

"Furthermore, Australopithecus afarensis was an edge species,"
adds Sussman. They could live in the trees and on the ground
and could take advantage of both. "Primates that are edge
species, even today, are basically prey species, not predators,"
Sussman argues.

The predators living at the same time as Australopithecus
afarensis were huge and there were 10 times as many as today.
There were hyenas as big as bears, as well as saber-toothed cats
and many other mega-sized carnivores, reptiles and raptors.
Australopithecus afarensis didn't have tools, didn't have big teeth
and was three feet tall. He was using his brain, his agility and his
social skills to get away from these predators. "He wasn't hunting
them," says Sussman. "He was avoiding them at all costs."

Approximately 6 percent to 10 percent of early humans were
preyed upon according to evidence that includes teeth marks
on bones, talon marks on skulls and holes in a fossil cranium
into which sabertooth cat fangs fit, says Sussman. The predation
rate on savannah antelope and certain ground-living monkeys
today is around 6 percent to 10 percent as well.

Sussman and Hart provide evidence that many of our modern
human traits, including those of cooperation and socialization,
developed as a result of being a prey species and the early human's
ability to out-smart the predators. These traits did not result from
trying to hunt for prey or kill our competitors, says Sussman.

"One of the main defenses against predators by animals without
physical defenses is living in groups," says Sussman. "In fact,
all diurnal primates (those active during the day) live in
permanent social groups. Most ecologists agree that predation
pressure is one of the major adaptive reasons for this group-living.
In this way there are more eyes and ears to locate the predators
and more individuals to mob them if attacked or to confuse them
by scattering. There are a number of reasons that living in groups
is beneficial for animals that otherwise would be very prone to
being preyed upon."

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medi...p?newsid=38011

> In the case of hunting and gathering it gave them an added advantage
> over othr species and other primates which quickly became dominate and a
> successful direction to allow domination of all areas.


'It has long been held that big game hunting is THE key development
in human evolutionary history, facilitating the appearance of patterns
in reproduction, social organization, and life history fundamental to
the modern human condition. Though this view has been challenged
strongly in recent years, it persists as the conventional wisdom, largely
for lack of a plausible alternative. Recent research on women's time
allocation and food sharing among tropical hunter-gatherers now
provides the basis for such an alternative.

The problem with big game hunting

The appeal of big game hunting as an important evolutionary force
lies in the common assumption that hunting and related paternal
provisioning are essential to child rearing among human foragers:
mother is seen as unable to bear, feed and raise children on her
own; hence relies on husband/father for critical nutritional support,
especially in the form of meat. This makes dating the first
appearance of this pattern the fundamental problem in human
origins research. The common association between stone tools
and the bones of large animals at sites of Pleistocene age suggests
to many that it may be quite old, possibly originating with Homo
erectus nearly two million years ago (e.g. Gowlett 1993).

Despite its widespread acceptance, there are good reasons to be
skeptical about the underlying assumption. Most important is the
observation that big game hunting is actually a poor way to support
a family. Among the Tanzanian Hadza, for example, men armed
with bows and poisoned arrows operating in a game-rich habitat
acquire large animal prey only about once every thirty hunter-days,
not nearly often enough to feed their children effectively. They
could do better as provisioners by taking small game or plant
foods, yet choose not to, which suggests that big game hunting
serves some other purpose unrelated to offspring survivorship
(Hawkes et al. 1991). Whatever it is, reliable support for children
must come from elsewhere.

The importance of women's foraging and food sharing

Recent research on Hadza time allocation and foraging returns
shows that at least among these low latitude foragers, women's
gathering is the source (Hawkes et al. 1997). The most difficult
time of the year for the Hadza is the dry season, when foods
younger children can procure for themselves are unavailable.
Mothers respond by provisioning youngsters with foods they
themselves can procure daily and at relatively high rates, but that
their children cannot, largely because of handling requirements.
Tubers, which require substantial upper body strength and
endurance to collect and the ability to control fire in processing,
are a good example.

Provisioning of this sort has at least two important implications:
1) it allows the Hadza to operate in times and places where they
otherwise could not if, as among other primates, weaned offspring
were responsible for feeding themselves; 2) it lets another adult
assist in the process allowing mother to turn her attention to the
next pregnancy that much sooner. Quantitative data on time
allocation, foraging returns, and changes in children's nutritional
status indicate that, among the Hadza, that other adult is typically
grandmother. Senior Hadza women forage long hours every day,
enjoy high returns for effort, and provision their grandchildren
effectively, especially when their daughters are nursing new
infants (Hawkes et al. 1989, 1997). Their support is crucial to
both daughters' fecundity and grandchildren's survivorship,
with important implications for grandmothers' own fitness.
....
http://www.cast.uark.edu/local/icaes.../oconnell.html




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Default Meat is a prominent part of chimpanzee diet; pre-human hominids ate meat for 2.25 million years (biologically adapted to meat)

Please forgive me for being blunt, you are thrashing about to find
something that does not exist. You do not know the literature and wild
shots here and there are useless.

It can not be sustained that meat did not play a role in human
evolution. The evidence for the clear start use of meat in the diet
occurs at the same time as humans start to show evidence of having
culturally based primary behavior. It also goes with their movement
into multiple niches and not the specialized niches other primates
occupy.

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Default Meat is a prominent part of chimpanzee diet; pre-human hominids ate meat for 2.25 million years (biologically adapted to meat)

On Tue, 26 Feb 2008 22:40:27 -0000, "pearl" > wrote:

> wrote:


>> The observation that those species like humans adopted many of the same
>> general features of hunting meat.

>
>If that's the case, then why don't such predators have huge brains?


All creatures have a limited number of genes. To use up a lot of genes to
be highly intelligent means genes for something else are given up. While we
are the smartest, we do not have the best eyesight, nor the best smell, nor
the best hearing, nor are we the fastest, etc. Those predators have traded
huge brains for some of these other things.

Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
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Default Meat is a prominent part of chimpanzee diet; pre-human hominidsate meat for 2.25 million years (biologically adapted to meat)

pearl wrote:
> <dh@.> wrote in message ...
>
>> Based on new insights into the behavior of chimps and other great apes, our
>> now extinct human ancestors, and existing hunting and gathering societies,
>> Stanford shows the remarkable role that meat has played in these societies.
>> Perhaps because it provides a highly concentrated source of
>> protein--essential for the development and health of the brain--meat is
>> craved by many primates, including humans.

>
> 'The big problem we have before us


....is that you post extremist bullshit.
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Default Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian??

pearl wrote:
> "Rudy Canoza" > wrote in message ...
>> pearl wrote:
>>> > wrote in message u...
>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>> The PBS science show Nova had this week a show on chimps. Not only did
>>>>>>>> they eat meat with great relish they did so at every opportunity.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They had invented a kind of spear to kill animals to eat. They hunt
>>>>>>>> with group cooperation and share the meat among themselves.
>>>>>>> Where?
>>>>>> In their entire range.
>>>>> 'Relating Chimpanzee Diets to Potential Australopithecine Diets
>>>>> Conklin-Brittain, Nancy Lou
>>>>> Wrangham, Richard W.
>>>>>
>>>>> We report data using an ape model to reconstruct the nutrient
>>>>> composition of the frugivorous diet of our last common ancestor
>>>>> with African great apes. We aimed to determine whether the
>>>>> African ape clade, from which hominids evolved, has any unusual
>>>>> features. We studied frugivory by comparing chimpanzee diets to
>>>>> that of three species of cercopithecine monkeys in Kibale Forest,
>>>>> Uganda.
>>>>>
>>>>> Data came from a 12-month period that showed inter-monthly
>>>>> variation in fruit abundance. The monkeys consumed stable
>>>>> nutrient levels except for lipid, which was low (3.2 +/- 2.0 %
>>>>> dry matter (DM)), but peaked at about 9% DM during ripe fruit
>>>>> abundance. Chimpanzees also consumed low lipid and sugar diets
>>>>> during fruit poor seasons. Protein intake reflected each species'
>>>>> fallback food: leaf consumption kept the protein levels high for
>>>>> monkeys (16.7 +/- 1.9% DM); chimpanzees relied on herbaceous
>>>>> piths and maintained a low protein intake (9.5 +/- 3.0% DM).
>>>>> Fallback food was probably also responsible for the high fiber
>>>>> (NDF) intakes by monkeys, which was not significantly different
>>>> >from chimpanzees' (32.4 +/- 3.6% NDF versus 33.6 +/- 4.5%
>>>>> NDF respectively).
>>>>>
>>>>> Three conclusions emerge: fat intake was low for all frugivores,
>>>>> protein intake was low for chimpanzees, and fiber intake was high
>>>>> for all species. Our data (from a lipid-poor habitat) show that
>>>>> high lipid or high protein is not needed for normal health and
>>>>> reproduction of chimpanzees. Therefore, hominids were probably
>>>>> capable of living on a low-fat, low-protein diet such as would be
>>>>> provided by fibrous roots commonly found in a seasonal woodland
>>>>> environment.
>>>>>
>>>>>
http://www.cast.uark.edu/local/icaes...onklin/abstrac
>>>>> t.html
>>>> In science the answers one gets is a function of the questions one asks.
>>>> Tabove does not answer the question do chimps eat meat with grea relish,
>>>> share it among themselves, produce tools to hunt animals, and hunt
>>>> cooperatively.
>>>>
>>>> The above was asking about proportions of macro nutrients and seasonal
>>>> feeding habits.
>>> And hunting wasn't mentioned. Neither was eating insects.

>> Because they weren't trying to answer questions about
>> that. Those studies did *not* say that chimpanzees do
>> not eat meat or insects.

>
> 'It is generally accepted that


Doesn't address the issue.

The issue is whether chimpanzees, and gorillas, eat
insects or not. They do - lots of insects.
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Default Why Vegan Instead of Just Vegetarian??

pearl wrote:
> "Rudy Canoza" > wrote in message ...
>> pearl wrote:
>>> > wrote in message u...
>>>
>>>> "scavenging, *not* hunting. Our review of the archaeology yields
>>>> results"
>>>>
>>>> In the question of when and why pre-humans added meat as part of their
>>>> feeding strategy, the above is a difference without a distinction. Meat
>>>> was part of the diet and has continued to be so eversince.
>>> Some humans...

>> Meat has been an essential part of the diet of all
>> human societies, and of the vast, overwhelming majority
>> of individual human beings.
>>
>> Humans eat meat: at all times and places.

>
> 'Gut Morphology and the Avoidance of Carrion


You didn't read the article.

Humans eat meat: at all times and places.
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