Hey everyone,

I'm new to this forum and I'm having a hard time maintaining the vegan
diet. I have cravings for meat! What do you do to overcome these
cravings?

Thanks,

Mary

wrote:
> Hey everyone,
>
> I'm new to this forum and I'm having a hard time maintaining the vegan
> diet. I have cravings for meat! What do you do to overcome these
> cravings?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mary

Why are you following a vegan diet? Are you suffering from cognitive
dissonance?

I would think that if you were doing it for your own 'reasons' then you
would not crave meat.

Perhaps look at these:

http://www.viva.org.uk/video/index.htm

http://www.viva.org.uk/video/nimn.html

Go to the http://www.ajcn.org/ web site and type in "milk cancer" and
read some of the papers...

wrote:
> Hey everyone,
>
> I'm new to this forum and I'm having a hard time maintaining the vegan
> diet. I have cravings for meat! What do you do to overcome these
> cravings?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mary

On reflection, I might have seemed a bit 'blunt'. If so I apologise!

A good place to start would be:

http://www.viva.org.uk/goingvegan/index.html

Good luck.

wrote:
> Hey everyone,
>
> I'm new to this forum and I'm having a hard time maintaining the vegan
> diet. I have cravings for meat! What do you do to overcome these
> cravings?

Eat some meat then. Seriously.
No one diet suits everyone, what is your prime motivation to try a Vegan
diet? Being vegan is fine, but don't let anyone tell you it is the only
legitimate option.

Gaston wrote:
> wrote:
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> I'm new to this forum and I'm having a hard time maintaining the vegan
>> diet. I have cravings for meat! What do you do to overcome these
>> cravings?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Mary
>
> Why are you following a vegan diet? Are you suffering from cognitive
> dissonance?
>
> I would think that if you were doing it for your own 'reasons' then you
> would not crave meat.
>
> Perhaps look at these:
>
> http://www.viva.org.uk/video/index.htm
>
> http://www.viva.org.uk/video/nimn.html
>
> Go to the http://www.ajcn.org/ web site and type in "milk cancer" and
> read some of the papers...
>
>

wrote:
> Gaston wrote:
>> wrote:
>>> Hey everyone,
>>>
>>> I'm new to this forum and I'm having a hard time maintaining the vegan
>>> diet. I have cravings for meat! What do you do to overcome these
>>> cravings?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Mary
>>
>> Why are you following a vegan diet? Are you suffering from cognitive
>> dissonance?
>>
>> I would think that if you were doing it for your own 'reasons' then
>> you would not crave meat.
>>
>> Perhaps look at these:
>>
>> http://www.viva.org.uk/video/index.htm
>>
>> http://www.viva.org.uk/video/nimn.html
>>
>> Go to the http://www.ajcn.org/ web site and type in "milk cancer" and
>> read some of the papers...
>>
>>

I think something is missing.....

wrote:

> Hey everyone,
>
> I'm new to this forum and I'm having a hard time maintaining the vegan
> diet. I have cravings for meat! What do you do to overcome these
> cravings?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mary

Hi Mary,

When these cravings arise, do you find you get involved in telling yourself
a story about it, what you are missing, how it makes you miserable?
anything like that. That is getting involved with them.

You don't do anything to the cravings, just let them be. Watch them come and
they will also go. When they no longer have an emotional effect on you they
will probably fizzle out and stop. Don't feed it and it'll go away.

ned.

I would stock up on some vegan garden burgers, original flavor.
I assume you are just starting out so the burger flavor will get you
through the hard times.
Try them with mustard, lettuce, onion, and tomato. The more you load
them up with veggies the more filling they will be and you get over the
meat taste.
Just don't get caught up in the meaty taste as they are loaded with fat
to get the meat flavor.
Good luck.
Eddie

Mary,

I'm on the vegan diet not because I want to be or care about what
happens to the animals. Truly I don't. But, I am doing it because my
wife does and I love and respect her. That being said, I've been doing
this since November of last year and going cold turkey was very
difficult for me. I started out straight into it and I had quite a few
fallbacks. To be honest, when today ends February will be my first true
meat-free month. I ate meat off and on throughout November-January, but
I am no longer doing it. Do I still crave meat? Sure? The smell of meat
cooking drives me nuts and I'd love to eat it, but I don't out of
respect for my wife's decisions. Health-wise, I'm better off eating
meat, but at the end of the day, I'm not a vegan for the reasons vegans
are vegans. With time the meat cravings will subside and you will be
able to get past them. Old habits die hard, just give it some time.

Justin

wrote:
> Hey everyone,
>
> I'm new to this forum and I'm having a hard time maintaining the vegan
> diet. I have cravings for meat! What do you do to overcome these
> cravings?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mary

Correction: better off *not* eating meat. And while I'm at it, should I
have said "cold Tofurky?"

Justin E. Miller wrote:
> Mary,
>
> I'm on the vegan diet not because I want to be or care about what
> happens to the animals. Truly I don't. But, I am doing it because my
> wife does and I love and respect her. That being said, I've been doing
> this since November of last year and going cold turkey was very
> difficult for me. I started out straight into it and I had quite a few
> fallbacks. To be honest, when today ends February will be my first true
> meat-free month. I ate meat off and on throughout November-January, but
> I am no longer doing it. Do I still crave meat? Sure? The smell of meat
> cooking drives me nuts and I'd love to eat it, but I don't out of
> respect for my wife's decisions. Health-wise, I'm better off eating
> meat, but at the end of the day, I'm not a vegan for the reasons vegans
> are vegans. With time the meat cravings will subside and you will be
> able to get past them. Old habits die hard, just give it some time.
>
> Justin
>
> wrote:
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> I'm new to this forum and I'm having a hard time maintaining the vegan
>> diet. I have cravings for meat! What do you do to overcome these
>> cravings?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Mary

On Feb 29, 6:05*pm, "Justin E. Miller" <justinmiller87> wrote:
> Mary,
>
> I'm on the vegan diet not because I want to be or care about what
> happens to the animals. Truly I don't. But, I am doing it because my
> wife does and I love and respect her. That being said, I've been doing
> this since November of last year and going cold turkey was very
> difficult for me. I started out straight into it and I had quite a few
> fallbacks. To be honest, when today ends February will be my first true
> meat-free month. I ate meat off and on throughout November-January, but
> I am no longer doing it. Do I still crave meat? Sure? The smell of meat
> cooking drives me nuts and I'd love to eat it, but I don't out of
> respect for my wife's decisions. Health-wise, I'm better off eating
> meat, but at the end of the day, I'm not a vegan for the reasons vegans
> are vegans. With time the meat cravings will subside and you will be
> able to get past them. Old habits die hard, just give it some time.
>
> Justin
>
>
>
> wrote:
> > Hey everyone,
>
> > I'm new to this forum and I'm having a hard time maintaining the vegan
> > diet. I have cravings for meat! What do you do to overcome these
> > cravings?
>
> > Thanks,
>
> > Mary- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

On Feb 29, 6:05*pm, "Justin E. Miller" <justinmiller87> wrote:
> Mary,
>
> I'm on the vegan diet not because I want to be or care about what
> happens to the animals. Truly I don't. But, I am doing it because my
> wife does and I love and respect her. That being said, I've been doing
> this since November of last year and going cold turkey was very
> difficult for me. I started out straight into it and I had quite a few
> fallbacks. To be honest, when today ends February will be my first true
> meat-free month. I ate meat off and on throughout November-January, but
> I am no longer doing it. Do I still crave meat? Sure? The smell of meat
> cooking drives me nuts and I'd love to eat it, but I don't out of
> respect for my wife's decisions. Health-wise, I'm better off eating
> meat, but at the end of the day, I'm not a vegan for the reasons vegans
> are vegans. With time the meat cravings will subside and you will be
> able to get past them. Old habits die hard, just give it some time.

You make it sound like meat is an addiciton like drugs or something
and maybe that's the explaination for the cravings but personally I
would be concerned that they could be a warning from your body that
you are lacking some important nutrient(s). You could try eating more
plant sources of fat and protein, and seeing if that helps. Maybe
also
investigate other nutrients associated with meat, like iron, zinc,
selenium and b-vitamins

On Feb 4, 4:27 pm, wrote:
> Hey everyone,
>
> I'm new to this forum and I'm having a hard time maintaining thevegan
> diet. I have cravings for meat! What do you do to overcome these
> cravings?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mary

vegan or not, a diet that makes you gain or lose weight (beyond a
healthy body mass index), or causes a loss of energy and libido, is
not for you

these meatatarians... are a hoot!



wanting to be something they can't possibly handle.



> wrote in message
...
> On Feb 4, 4:27 pm, wrote:
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> I'm new to this forum and I'm having a hard time maintaining thevegan
>> diet. I have cravings for meat! What do you do to overcome these
>> cravings?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Mary
>
> vegan or not, a diet that makes you gain or lose weight (beyond a
> healthy body mass index), or causes a loss of energy and libido, is
> not for you
>

>>> I'm new to this forum and I'm having a hard time
>>> maintaining the vegan diet. I have cravings for meat!
>>> What do you do to overcome these cravings?
Such "cravings" are the result of taste habituation, so
make your vegan choices taste like burnt flesh.
"Meat' does not have any taste, the familiar taste of
burnt flesh is the sole result of Maillard Reaction Products.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maillard_reaction
So, simulate that familiar taste by using fermented soy
products: soy sauce, dark miso, and other condiments common
to flesh dishes: garlic, orion, hot pepper, ...
Easy?

Laurie

--
Scientifically-credible info on plant-based human diets:
http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html
news:alt.food.vegan.science

like i said... you're either built for it or not.


don't be something you can't handle... just because someone like me or
another you may know feels good, looks good and their health is much
improved.. by vegan appropriations.. doesn't mean it'll work for you.


if you get sick... you gotta stop.

sorry.



either that or you're not eating properly... with any diet of chosing... if
you don't eat it well balanced.... you're not going to get the most out of
it.

meat is meat.. full of hormones.. chemicals.. like most processed vegan
products... so thus you'd think there'd be no difference... but there is.

one just has lesser cholesterol than the other and one tastes like sour
chemicals the other tastes like corregated cardboard with chemicals.

you want meat? eat it...

habits can be broken in 14 days.. problem is will your mind let it go.


"Laurie" > wrote in message
abs...
>
>>>> I'm new to this forum and I'm having a hard time maintaining the vegan
>>>> diet. I have cravings for meat!
>>>> What do you do to overcome these cravings?
> Such "cravings" are the result of taste habituation, so
> make your vegan choices taste like burnt flesh.
> "Meat' does not have any taste, the familiar taste of
> burnt flesh is the sole result of Maillard Reaction Products.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maillard_reaction
> So, simulate that familiar taste by using fermented soy
> products: soy sauce, dark miso, and other condiments common
> to flesh dishes: garlic, orion, hot pepper, ...
> Easy?
>
> Laurie
>
> --
> Scientifically-credible info on plant-based human diets:
> http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html
> news:alt.food.vegan.science

sumbeotch at scumbum dot *** wrote:
> like i said... you're either built for it or not.
Correct!! However, there is NO credible scientific
evidence that humans are "designed" to consume animal flesh.
NONE!.
http://ecologos.org/anatomy.htm
http://ecologos.org/omni.htm
http://ecologos.org/chimphunt.htm
http://ecologos.org/pix/primatediets.gif

Further, there is unavoidable evidence that shows that
consuming animal protein and animal fat are THE causes of
currently-popular Western "degenerative diseases".
TCCampbell; The China Study
http://tinyurl.com/2v689m
http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html#meat

This is the reason that the meatarian propagandists here
are uncivil and only are here to disrupt meaningful
conversions among sincere people.
Read the cortisol section:
http://www.ecologos.org/anxiety.htm

Action speaks louder than words; watch what they do.

A prophesy: some mindless meatarian propagandists here will:
1> issue floods of personal insults, name-calling, vulgarity,
2> make all sorts of pseudo-scientific nonsense using
scientific words, trying to sound credible,
3> NEVER try to refute ANYthing I say with facts and logic,
in a polite manner,
4> NEVER supply one scientifically-credible support for
their claims when challenged to do so, ...
5> NEVER engage in polite academic exchange, ...

> ... don't be something you can't handle...
Why do disease statistics prove that NO one can "handle"
animal products?

> ... doesn't mean it'll work for you


Are you REALLY claiming that different humans have
radically different digestive biochemistry? How about some
real science to back that up?

> ... you don't eat it well balanced....
http://ecologos.org/balance.htm

>>>>> I'm new to this forum and I'm having a hard time
>>>>> maintaining the vegan diet. I have cravings for
>>>>> meat! What do you do to overcome these cravings?
You will notice that there was NO relation to the
conversation, just "I like it" propaganda. I responded with
some applied biochemistry to help the original poster.

Laurie
--
Scientifically-credible info on plant-based human diets:
http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html
news:alt.food.vegan.science

On 15 May, 21:51, Laurie > wrote:

[snip]

> "Meat' does not have any taste, the familiar taste of
> burnt flesh is the sole result of Maillard Reaction

Maybe you have no tastebuds or have ever tried carpaccio or steak
Tartare, but let me assure you raw meat DOES have flavour - and quite
a pleasant one at that. Of course, you need the very best quality
organic meat for that.

Dragonblaze

- Who has ever heard of vegan _dragons_? -

Dragonblaze wrote:
> On 15 May, 21:51, Laurie > wrote:
>> "Meat' does not have any taste, the familiar taste of
>> burnt flesh is the sole result of Maillard Reaction

> ... carpaccio ...
"Typically the thin slices are served with a dressing of
olive oil and lemon juice plus seasoning, often with green
salad leaves such as rocket, arugula or radicchio and thinly
sliced Parmesan cheese."
Clearly, the 'dressing' is used to provide some taste; but
one does not need dressings on fruits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpaccio

> .. or steak Tartare, ...
"Tartare can also be made by thinly slicing a high grade of
meat such as strip steak, marinating it in wine or other
spirits and spiced to taste, and then chilled. It is often
served with onions, capers and seasonings (the latter
typically incorporating fresh ground pepper and
Worcestershire sauce), and sometimes with a raw egg, and
usually served on rye bread."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steak_tartare

Notice that wines and spices are used to provide the taste.
IF flesh is so tasty, why do its eaters use so much spices
and flavorings -- to disguise its grizzly origins?

> but let me assure you raw meat DOES have flavour - and
> quite a pleasant one at that.
Then, WHY are spices and marinades used? I don't have to
put spices on my mango just to be able to eat it.
Your assurances have been demonstrated to be unfounded in fact.

Laurie
--
Scientifically-credible info on plant-based human diets:
http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html
news:alt.food.vegan.science

On 21 May, 22:36, Laurie > wrote:
> Dragonblaze wrote:
> > On 15 May, 21:51, Laurie > wrote:
> >> "Meat' does not have any taste, the familiar taste of
> >> burnt flesh is the sole result of Maillard Reaction
> > ... carpaccio ...
>
> "Typically the thin slices are served with a dressing of
> olive oil and lemon juice plus seasoning, often with green
> salad leaves such as rocket, arugula or radicchio and thinly
> sliced Parmesan cheese."
> * * * * Clearly, the 'dressing' is used to provide some taste; but
> one does not need dressings on fruits.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpaccio
>
> > .. or steak Tartare, ...
>
> "Tartare can also be made by thinly slicing a high grade of
> meat such as strip steak, marinating it in wine or other
> spirits and spiced to taste, and then chilled. It is often
> served with onions, capers and seasonings (the latter
> typically incorporating fresh ground pepper and
> Worcestershire sauce), and sometimes with a raw egg, and
> usually served on rye bread."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steak_tartare
>
> * * * * Notice that wines and spices are used to provide the taste..
> * * * * IF flesh is so tasty, why do its eaters use so much spices
> and flavorings -- to disguise its grizzly origins?

Some do - I do not. I like the flavour of raw meat as is.

Cooked dishes are different, as eating the same thing all over and
over would become boring fast, so I use spices and seasonings and
several ingredients there.

> > but let me assure you raw meat DOES have flavour - and
> > quite a pleasant one at that.
>
> * * * * Then, WHY are spices and marinades used? *I don't have to
> put spices on my mango just to be able to eat it.
> * * * * Your assurances have been demonstrated to be unfounded in fact.

Some people use seasonings - just as in any other dishes (yes, even
with fruits, as apple dishes are often seasoned with cinnamon) - but I
don't bother. I have my raw meat as is, so unfortunately for you, I
can assure you it does have a taste of its own.

Dragonblaze

Dragonblaze wrote:

> Some (the great majority) do - I do not. (use spices and seasoning) I
> like the flavour of raw meat as is.

Good for you; at last you are giving lip service to a
"natural" approach.
The next step would be to eliminate the middle men and
kill, dismember, and eat raw your prey animals raw with your
natural physical equipment.
You could start with a mouse from a pet store and work your
way up. I doubt that you'd get to cattle or any other
popular "meat" product.
Do you do this? Why not?

> I have my raw meat as is, so unfortunately for you, ...
Such lack of fortune may accrue to you, good luck!
http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html#meat

Laurie
--
Scientifically-credible info on plant-based human diets:
http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html
news:alt.food.vegan.science

On May 23, 7:48*pm, Laurie > wrote:
> Dragonblaze wrote:
> > Some (the great majority) do - I do not. (use spices and seasoning) I
> > like the flavour of raw meat as is.
>
> * * * * Good for you; at last you are giving lip service to a
> "natural" approach.
> * * * * The next step would be to eliminate the middle men and
> kill, dismember, and eat raw your prey animals raw with your
> natural physical equipment.
> * * * * You could start with a mouse from a pet store and work your
> way up. *I doubt that you'd get to cattle or any other
> popular "meat" product.
> * * * * Do you do this? *Why not?

Mice are too small, I prefer larger animals - and I have no trouble
with hunting when it comes to my survival. You have to understand I
grew up in a farm, and from a young age I was present when food
animals were slaughtered. Let me assure you, I never saw any cruelty,
they died before they knew they were going to die. So cleanly killing
a deer does not bother me the slightest. I'm good enough a shot to
assure a clean kill.

> *> *I have my raw meat as is, so unfortunately for you, ...
> * * * * Such lack of fortune may accrue to you, good luck!http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html#meat

Took a look at your website. Now kindly present a single peer-reviewed
article from a medical journal that backs your assertion that viral
influenza is just your body detoxicating. And while you are at it,
kindly explain why such a 'natural process' would become an epidemic.

Dragonblaze

Dragonblaze wrote:
>> On May 23, 7:48 pm, Laurie > wrote: The
>> next step would be to eliminate the middle men and
>> kill, dismember, and eat raw your prey animals raw with
>> your natural physical equipment. You could start with
>> a mouse from a pet store and work your way up. I
>> doubt that you'd get to cattle or any other popular
>> "meat" product. Do you do this? Why not?
>
> Mice are too small, I prefer larger animals ...
Missed the point?
Let me repeat; if you are claiming that humans are natural
'omnivores', then do you kill, dismember, and eat raw your
animal prey as all natural 'omnivores' do, with your natural
physiology? No guns, no knives, no fire. If not, why not?

> So cleanly killing a deer does not bother me the
> slightest.
I am not referring to one's choice to consume animals, that
is a choice you are free to make as an adult, and I respect
that. But, I am focusing on the fact that humans are not
NATURAL 'omnivores', but are CULTURAL 'omnivores',
conditioned to do so by extant cultural programming -before-
one can think for one's self. So, your 'free will' does not
exist in such practices because you did not make the
informed 'choice' to do so.

> Now kindly present a single peer-reviewed article from a
> medical journal that backs your assertion that viral
> influenza is just your body detoxicating.
Unlike the epidemiology readily available showing the
undeniable relationship between meat consumption and
"degenerative diseases", I have not found any epidemiology
relating diet to "influenza;" apparently, this type of
research is being neglected. Can you find any?

My personal experience is that I had numerous "colds/flus"
every year until I changed my diet in 1969, and I have not
had any such events since then. Countless vegans, and
especially raw vegans, have experienced the same results.
Now, this may be because our immunological systems have
gotten 'stronger' by not being suppressed by the toxins
associated with the consumption of animal products. I don't
know the mechanism, just the results.

> And while you are at it, kindly explain why such a
> 'natural process' would become an epidemic.
If the average person has a compromised immune
system, then similar stresses (change in temperatu the
"cold") might create the illusion of interpersonal transmission.
Could you explain the etiology of the creation and
expulsion of excessive mucus in the "cold/flu"?

Laurie
--
Scientifically-credible info on plant-based human diets:
http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html
news:alt.food.vegan.science

On 28 May, 19:57, Laurie > wrote:

[snip]

> * * * * Missed the point?
> * * * * Let me repeat; if you are claiming that humans are natural
> 'omnivores', then do you kill, dismember, and eat raw your
> animal prey as all natural 'omnivores' do, with your natural
> physiology? *No guns, no knives, no fire. *If not, why not?

We certainly used to - but as with all processes, world has moved on.
We now pay other people to specialize in things we no longer have time
for.

Let me pose a counterquestion: do you grow ALL your food, cultivate
the cotton and linen for your clothes, spin the thread, weave the
cloth, cut and sew the clothes, build the computer you use from
scratch (and I DO NOT mean from components either) etc, etc, etc? If
not, why not?

I would think your reply would be the same as mine.

> > So cleanly killing a deer does not bother me the
> > slightest.
>
> * * * * I am not referring to one's choice to consume animals, that
> is a choice you are free to make as an adult, and I respect
> that. *But, I am focusing on the fact that humans are not
> NATURAL 'omnivores', but are CULTURAL 'omnivores',
> conditioned to do so by extant cultural programming -before-
> one can think for one's self. *So, your 'free will' does not
> exist in such practices because you did not make the
> informed 'choice' to do so.

See my previous reply. As you claim to be a NATURAL vegan, do you
cultivate or gather everything you eat?

As regards the human history, cracked and burnt animal bones are found
everywhere in archaeological digs, from the earliest human sites on.
If you claim this is culturally conditioned, when did this culture in
your opinion start and why?

> > Now kindly present a single peer-reviewed article from a
> > *medical journal that backs your assertion that viral
> > influenza is just your body detoxicating.
>
> * * * * Unlike the epidemiology readily available showing the
> undeniable relationship between meat consumption and
> "degenerative diseases", I have not found any epidemiology
> relating diet to "influenza;" apparently, this type of
> research is being neglected. *Can you find any?

No, all I can find relates to viral, infectious influenza - and the
literature on that is extensive.

Could the reason possibly be that the virus infection - inflluenza
cause-effect be rather well documented and researched?

> * * * * My personal experience is that I had numerous "colds/flus"
> every year until I changed my diet in 1969, and I have not
> had any such events since then. *Countless vegans, and
> especially raw vegans, have experienced the same results.
> * * * * Now, this may be because our immunological systems have
> gotten 'stronger' by not being suppressed by the toxins
> associated with the consumption of animal products. *I don't
> know the mechanism, just the results.

One possibility I can think offhand (and I admit I'm no M.D.) is that
something has strenghtened your immune system. People have different
immune systems, and that tends to be part genetic and part depending
on external influences. For example, my partner and I have the same
diet. I get every single cold and flu going, he gets nothing
whatsoever (and I guess I don't need to tell you how annoying that
is!)

> > And while you are at it, kindly explain why such a
> > 'natural process' would become an epidemic.
>
> * * * * If the average person has a compromised immune
> system, then similar stresses (change in temperatu the
> "cold") might create the illusion of interpersonal transmission.
> * * * * Could you explain the etiology of the creation and
> expulsion of excessive mucus in the "cold/flu"?

Being no MD, as I said, quoting a source is the best I can do:

"The entire tubular system for bringing air into the lungs is coated
by a moist mucous membrane that helps to clean the air and fight
infection. In the case of a cold, the mucous membrane is fighting any
one of over 200 viruses. If the immune system is unsuccessful in
warding off such a virus, the nasal passages and other parts of the
upper respiratory tract become inflamed, swollen, and congested, thus
interfering with the breathing process. The body uses the reflex
actions of sneezing and coughing to expel mucus, a thick sticky
substance that comes from the mucous membranes and other secretions.
These secretions come up from the infected areas as phlegm.

Coughing is a reflex action that helps to expel infected mucus or
phlegm from the airways of the lungs by causing the diaphragm to
contract spasmodically. It is characterized by loud explosive sounds
that can often indicate the nature of the discomfort. While coughing
is irritating and uncomfortable, losing the ability to cough can be
fatal in an illness such as pneumonia, where coughing is essential to
break up the mucous and other infected secretions produced by the body
in its battle against the disease."

http://science.jrank.org/pages/5839/...-Diseases.html

Dragonblaze

On Jun 3, 9:29 am, Dragonblaze > wrote:
> On 28 May, 19:57, Laurie > wrote:
do you kill, dismember, and eat raw your
> > animal prey as all natural 'omnivores' do, with your natural
> > physiology? No guns, no knives, no fire. If not, why not?
>
> We certainly used to - but as with all processes, world has moved on.
> We now pay other people to specialize in things we no longer have time
> for.

When I ingested animal tissue, it wasn't because I "no longer [had]
time" to kill a frog/turtle/stray dog or fish nearby. It was because I
lacked ecopsychopathologies required to attempt to hunt instead of
forage & because I merely inherited a nationalized/diet that included
meat.

> Let me pose a counterquestion: do you grow ALL your food..?

It wouldn't be ego-dystonic for a raw foodist to grow fruit so there
is no incongruity in purchasing the same species of fruit. Most people
only eat meat because it is killed for them in secrecy. The rest kill
for meat because they were acculturated, not because H. Sapiens are
natural predators. Just notice all the well done steak eaters, who
cringe if they think about red in their meat. This is most unnatural
since direct lineage developed a frugivorous/genetic appreciation for
red color in natural food. "Young leaves, which are slightly redder in
color than mature leaves, could only be discriminated from mature
leaves along a red-green color axis. The significance of this color
difference among leaves is that younger leaves have a higher protein
content.. making younger leaves a higher quality food item and are
less tough than mature leaves. Regan et al. examined the spectral
reflectance of fruit eaten by howler monkeys in their natural habitat
and report that, as for old world primates, the spectral properties of
their L and M cone pigments are well suited for detecting these fruits
against a background of spectrally noisy green foliage." Trichromatic
Color Vision in Primates Michael H. Rowe
Red differentiation became even stronger among H. Sapiens direct
lineage as a secondary sexual characteristic.. Then there was
increased selective pressure for red skin/red hair to develop in
ancestor's gene pool. But what human prefers blood over ripe figs?

> > > So cleanly killing a deer does not bother me the
> > > slightest.
>
>
> As regards the human history, cracked and burnt animal bones are found
> everywhere in archaeological digs, from the earliest human sites on.
> If you claim this is culturally conditioned, when did this culture in
> your opinion start and why?

Naturally, ancestors would only resort to eating animals if fruit,
leaves, nuts became scarce during habitat loss (Ice Age), overlapping
competition among primates after the Miocene epic or overpopulation.

Humans share 98.4% of chimp/bonobo genes. “Chimpanzees are highly
specialized frugivores and across all study sites preferentially eat
fruit, even when it is not abundant.” http://pin.primate.wisc.edu/factsheets/entry/chimpanzee
There is no nutritional reason H. Sapiens would require more meat than
chimps (which are 7 times stronger).

Humans share 97.73% of gorilla’s genes. “Western lowland gorillas
prefer fruit” http://www.stlzoo.org/animals/aboutt...andgorilla.htm
Gorillas are known to walk past eggs while foraging. “High folate
intakes, derived from leafy vegetation by the great apes, may have
implications in the prevention of cardiovascular disease (Selhub et
al. 1995), colon cancer (Kim and Mason 1995) and spina bifida (Wald et
al. 1991) in humans. Natural gorilla feeding patterns of "foraging"
throughout the day may also have health benefits because increased
feeding frequency, "nibbling," has been shown in human studies to
reduce LDL cholesterol and the postprandial insulin response (Jenkins
et al. 1989). In conclusion, we believe that the diets of the great
apes in the wild may provide insights into the nature of the foods
that hominoids evolved to eat and that have shaped human nutrient
requirements for health and the function of the hominoid gut.” The
Journal of Nutrition Vol. 127 No. 10 October 1997, pp. 2000-2005

Humans share 96.4% of orangutan genes. During high fruit production,
100% of the orangutan diet is composed of fruit. Department of
Anthropology, Peabody Museum, Harvard University, Cambridge,
Massachusetts
Changes in Orangutan Caloric Intake, Energy Balance, and Ketones in
Response to Fluctuating Fruit Availability

Humans share 95.24% of gibbon’s genes. (Sibley, 1984). During fruiting
season, gibbons eat 100% fruit.

Reflecting genetic script to eat fruit rather than animal, The range
of various diseases from gout, hemorrhoids, cancer, kidney stones,
diverticulitis, Alzheimer’s, type 2 diabetes, etc. are naturally
relieved/postponed or totally prevented w/fruit having opposite
digestive/metabolic/elimination processes. Galanin and casomorphin are
addictive chemicals produced from eating meat fat, dairy. These plus
the secondary social reinforcers just add to the acculturated meat
dependency.

> my partner and I have the same
> diet. I get every single cold and flu going, he gets nothing
> whatsoever (and I guess I don't need to tell you how annoying that
> is!)

When it becomes really annoying, try to replace dairy. I have had only
a mild detox event rather than a flu since dropping dairy and I always
caught the bugs from coworkers, family before replacing dairy w/fruit.
>
> > > And while you are at it, kindly explain why such a
> > > 'natural process' would become an epidemic.
>
> > If the average person has a compromised immune
> > system, then similar stresses (change in temperatu the
> > "cold") might create the illusion of interpersonal transmission.
> > Could you explain the etiology of the creation and
> > expulsion of excessive mucus in the "cold/flu"?
>
> Being no MD, as I said, quoting a source is the best I can do:
>
> "The entire tubular system for bringing air into the lungs is coated
> by a moist mucous membrane that helps to clean the air and fight
> infection. In the case of a cold, the mucous membrane is fighting any
> one of over 200 viruses. If the immune system is unsuccessful in
> warding off such a virus, the nasal passages and other parts of the
> upper respiratory tract become inflamed, swollen, and congested,

But on a standard American Diet the upper respiratory tract is already
congested before the cold even starts.. There just doesn't seem to be
a reservoir for the bacteria/viri to develop after detoxing from
dairy. I don't experience allergies or sinusitis as much now either.
My dogs only get sick when they eat the wrong foods. I'm beginning to
experience the same thing.. And it feels good to know H. Sapiens gene
pool isn't so defective, it's mainly unnatural customs that get in the
way of natural diet/health.

thus
> interfering with the breathing process.

My breathing process and sleeping were often interrupted by congestion
before dropping dairy.

With fruit,
Chris

Dragonblaze wrote:

>> Let me repeat; if you are claiming that humans are
>> natural 'omnivores', then do you kill, dismember, and
>> eat raw your animal prey as all natural 'omnivores' do,
>> with your natural physiology? No guns, no knives, no
>> fire. If not, why not?
>
> We certainly used to - . We now pay other people to
> specialize in things we no longer have time for.
Trying to evade the issue, right? Afraid to face the ugly
reality?

> ... but as with all processes, world has moved on
Are you so ill-educated to assume that the Laws of
Biochemistry have somehow changed over time?
PLEASE provide some scientifically-credible support for this
statement, or be polite enough to withdraw it.
You are not authorized to just make science up to suit your
agenda.

> Let me pose a counterquestion: do you grow ALL your food,
> cultivate the cotton and linen for your clothes, spin
> the thread, weave the cloth, cut and sew the clothes,...
Totally irrelevant and indicative of your intellectual
evasiveness or your failure to comprehend the issues. The
laws of human digestion have NOT CHANGED, as you are implying.

> I would think your reply would be the same as mine.
I have no need to evade the issue, which is that human
biochemistry has NOT changed, as you fallaciously imply.

>> I am focusing on the fact that humans are not NATURAL
>> 'omnivores', but are CULTURAL 'omnivores', conditioned
>> to do so by extant cultural programming -before- one
>> can think for one's self. So, your 'free will' does
>> not exist in such practices because you did not make
>> the informed 'choice' to do so.
Missed this? Not worthy of a thoughtful, intelligent
response? Are you capable of any meaningful conversation?

> See my previous reply.
Hollow, and meaningless.

> As regards the human history, cracked and burnt animal
> bones are found everywhere in archaeological digs, from
> the earliest human sites on.
You are apparently unaware that early humans, pre-tool and
fire ate a totally RAW diet of fruits and leaves, as modern
chimps do. Thus, they left NO long-term remains, such as
those always left by recent flesh-eating tribes.
Thus, raw-eating humans existed, and were eating millions
of years before fire and tools were developed. Try to get
your baby archeology correct before you embarrass yourself like
this repeatedly. Thanks for the laugh.

> ... culturally conditioned, when did this culture in your
> opinion start and why?
Records were not kept, pre-writing. Do you really not
understand culture??

>> Unlike the epidemiology readily available showing the
>> undeniable relationship between meat consumption and
>> "degenerative diseases", I have not found any
>> epidemiology relating diet to "influenza;" apparently,
>> this type of research is being neglected. Can you find
>> any?
>
> No, ...
Strange this research is not being done. Seems like a
major oversight, or is it that colds/flus are just too big
a money maker to be seriously solved.
http://ecologos.org/cleansing.htm


> ... all I can find relates to viral, infectious
> influenza - and the literature on that is extensive.
>
> Could the reason possibly be that the virus infection -
> inflluenza cause-effect be rather well documented and
> researched?
>
>> My personal experience is that I had numerous
>> "colds/flus" every year until I changed my diet in
>> 1969, and I have not had any such events since then.
>> Countless vegans, and especially raw vegans, have
>> experienced the same results. Now, this may be because
>> our immunological systems have gotten 'stronger' by not
>> being suppressed by the toxins associated with the
>> consumption of animal products. I don't know the
>> mechanism, just the results.
Could you explain the FACT that people who transition to a
mostly raw fruit and veg diet permanently stop having
"colds/flus"?
Or, are you going to claim that because -you- don't know any
of hundreds of thousands of such people, they do not exist?

> ...is that something has strenghtened your immune system.
Eliminating the SOURCES of excessive mucus.
See Arnold Ehret: The Mucusless Diet Healing System
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listi...3027893&sr=8-2

Obviously, stopping eating toxic, excessive, cooked animal
protein and fats have an effect.
Have you read TColin Campbell's The China Study?
TCCampbell; The China Study
http://tinyurl.com/2v689m
video
http://tinyurl.com/6lcda6

This book describes the largest epidemiological study ever
dine relating diet and currently-popular :degenerative
diseases" and he found that consumption of animal protein
and animal fat was THE causes of current "degenerative
diseases".
Are you ignorant of this work?

> .... I get every single cold and flu going, ...
You could eliminate these episodes by simply dietary
change. The question then becomes are the benefits worth
the intelligent change of diet?
http://ecologos.org/cleansing.htm

http://ecologos.org/anatomy.htm
http://ecologos.org/omni.htm
http://ecologos.org/chimphunt.htm
http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html#meat

> Being no MD, as I said, quoting a source is the best I
> can do:
You might be better served by seeking out people who have
been totally successful in eliminating "colds/flus" from
their lives than relying on those who have not. Surrounding
yourself with sick people is not healthy; hang out with
active seekers of health -- people actually interested
enough in their own health to be actively experimenting with
plant-based diets. There is a whole universe out there;
lots of things to learn.

IF the body is freed of pounds of stored mucus
(mucoproteins - produced by eating excessive proteins,
especially cooked, animal proteins, and mucopolysaccharides
- produced by eating excessive starches) then there is none
to be expelled by a "cold/flu", and these are gone from
one's life permanently.
So, it is easy to permanently eliminate these "diseases"
from one's life by simple dietary change just as several
hundreds of thousands have done so globally.
Are YOU ready to get healthy?

Laurie
--
Scientifically-credible info on plant-based human diets:
http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html
news:alt.food.vegan.science

On 9 Jun, 17:14, Laurie > wrote:
> Dragonblaze wrote:
> >> Let me repeat; if you are claiming that humans are
> >> natural 'omnivores', then do you kill, dismember, and
> >> eat raw your animal prey as all natural 'omnivores' do,
> >> *with your natural physiology? *No guns, no knives, no
> >> fire. *If not, why not?
>
> > We certainly used to - . We now pay other people to
> > specialize in things we no longer have time for.
>
> * * * * Trying to evade the issue, right? *Afraid to face the ugly
> reality?

I'm not evading anything, just explaining why things are nowadays like
they are. I live in a major city, and certainly do not have the
premises or grounds to raise my own animals or hunt for my food.

What ugly reality you might be talking about? If you mean the origin
of the meat I purchase, I'm VERY aware where it comes from. I tend to
buy my meat from the nearby city farm - so I've seen the animals
before they end on my plate. Nothing ugly about that, as all life
above the level of most plants must subsist on other life. After all,
the vegetables you much on were alive once.

> > ... but as with all processes, world has moved on
>
> * * * * Are you so ill-educated to assume that the Laws of
> Biochemistry have somehow changed over time?
> * * * * PLEASE provide some scientifically-credible support for this
> statement, or be polite enough to withdraw it.
> * * * * You are not authorized to just make science up to suit your
> agenda.

State the "Laws of Biochemistry" - whatever they might be.

What did you find so difficult about my statement? It was: "We
certainly used to . We now pay other people to specialize in things we
no longer have time for."

If you are doubting we have been omnivores throughout human existence,
I will refer you to prehistoric archaeological sites with all the
charred and cracked animal bones, or the prehistoric cave paintings
and/or rock carvings with depictions of hunting scenes or game
animals. Start with the Lascaux cave - and I can easily post
references to even older sites than that.

"You are not authorized to just make science up to suit your agenda."

Take your own advice - and try explaining how "natural detoxing"
managed to kill 22 million people in the Spanish Flu epidemic of
1919-1920.

> > Let me pose a counterquestion: do you grow ALL your food,
> > *cultivate the cotton and linen for your clothes, spin
> > the thread, weave the cloth, cut and sew the clothes,...
>
> * * * * Totally irrelevant and indicative of your intellectual
> evasiveness or your failure to comprehend the issues. *The
> laws of human digestion have NOT CHANGED, as you are implying.

Not evading anything, just trying to show you how skewed your
perspective is. Now, answer the question. Do you forage or grow all
your own food?

> > I would think your reply would be the same as mine.
>
> * * * * I have no need to evade the issue, which is that human
> biochemistry has NOT changed, as you fallaciously imply.

YOU'RE the one who's claiming that, since you imply that somehow we
are now unable to consume animal products.

Show me ONE culture/nation/tribe/whatever that can be shown to have
been pre-industrial vegans. I will not hold my breath while waiting,
for obvious reasons.

> >> I am focusing on the fact that humans are not NATURAL
> >> 'omnivores', but are CULTURAL 'omnivores', conditioned
> >> *to do so by extant cultural programming -before- one
> >> can think for one's self. *So, your 'free will' does
> >> not exist in such practices because you did not make
> >> the informed 'choice' to do so.
>
> * * * * Missed this? *Not worthy of a thoughtful, intelligent
> response? *Are you capable of any meaningful conversation?
>
> > See my previous reply.
>
> * * * * Hollow, and meaningless.

Look who's talking. You have the slight dilemma of trying to explain
how and why your alleged vegans switched to a diet including animal
ingredients. There is nothing in the archaeological data to support
your allegation, so some evidence would be appreciated.

Remember, you're the one making that claim, so the burden of proof is
squarely on you.

> > As regards the human history, cracked and burnt animal
> > bones are found everywhere in archaeological digs, from
> > the earliest human sites on.
>
> * * * * You are apparently unaware that early humans, pre-tool and
> fire ate a totally RAW diet of fruits and leaves, as modern
> chimps do. *Thus, they left NO long-term remains, such as
> those always left by recent flesh-eating tribes.
> * * * * Thus, raw-eating humans existed, and were eating millions
> of years before fire and tools were developed. *Try to get
> your baby archeology correct before you embarrass yourself like
> this repeatedly. *Thanks for the laugh.

Any evidence for this assertion? No? I thought so. All I have seen
from you are mere assertions, which no evidence whatsoever to back any
of your claims up.

As for my evidence, how about reading up on Olduvai? (In case you do
not know what Olduvai is, look it up he http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olduvai_Gorge
). Start with this article:

Systematic Butchery by Plio/Pleistocene Hominids at Olduvai Gorge,
Tanzania [and Comments and Reply] by Henry T. Bunn, Ellen M. Kroll,
Stanley H. Ambrose, Anna K. Behrensmeyer, Lewis R. Binford, Robert J.
Blumenschine, Richard G. Klein, Henry M. McHenry, Christopher J.
O'Brien and J. J. Wymer. Current Anthropology, Vol. 27, No. 5 (Dec.,
1986), pp. 431-452

Then you might try:

Cut marks on small mammals at Olduvai Gorge Bed-I by Y. Fernández-
Jalvo, P. Andrews and C. Denys. Journal of Human Evolution,
Volume 36, Issue 5, May 1999, Pages 587-589

This might also prove enlightening:

Meat-eating by early hominids at the FLK 22Zinjanthropussite, Olduvai
Gorge (Tanzania): an experimental approach using cut-mark data by
Manuel Domínguez-Rodrigo. Journal of Human Evolution, Volume 33, Issue
6, December 1997, Pages 669-690

BTW, we ARE learning how to distinguish human toothmarks on gnawed
bones, and this can pull the carpet from under the feet of any
crackpot vegan theories. Admittedly, the dissertation might be of
little interest to anyone hell-bent on promoting their agenda, but
I'll post the link anyway.

http://www.dissertations.wsu.edu/The...ndt_050404.pdf

> > ... culturally conditioned, when did this culture in your
> > *opinion start and why?
>
> * * * * Records were not kept, pre-writing. *Do you really not
> understand culture??

Let me clarify, as you seem unable to understand. When, in your
opinion, did the meat-eating culture you were talking about start? Any
datable habitation sites with no evidence of omnivores (such as no
charred or cracked bones)? If so, what date is given to these?

[snip]

> * * * * Could you explain the FACT that people who transition to a
> mostly raw fruit and veg diet permanently stop having
> "colds/flus"?
> * * * * Or, are you going to claim that because -you- don't know any
> of hundreds of thousands of such people, they do not exist?

Again, since you claimed that flu is natural detoxing, could you
explain the 22 million dead I referred to above?

> > ...is that something has strenghtened your immune system.
>
> * * * * Eliminating the SOURCES of excessive mucus. * *
> * * * * See Arnold Ehret: The Mucusless Diet Healing Systemhttp://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000FGEC1W/ref=sr_1_olp_2?ie=U...
>
> * * * * Obviously, stopping eating toxic, excessive, cooked animal
> protein and fats have an effect.
> * * * * Have you read TColin Campbell's The China Study?
> TCCampbell; The China Studyhttp://tinyurl.com/2v689m
> * * *videohttp://tinyurl.com/6lcda6
>
> * * * * This book describes the largest epidemiological study ever
> dine relating diet and currently-popular :degenerative
> diseases" and he found that consumption of animal protein
> and animal fat was THE causes of current "degenerative
> diseases".
> * * * * Are you ignorant of this work?

I'm aware of it, but since it has come under severe criticism for what
looks like severely flawed research (I have read reviews of it), I
don't think it would be worth my while.

> > .... I get every single cold and flu going, ...

What you snipped was something like: "my partner, who is on the SAME
DIET AS ME does not get any colds." Now explain that, if diet is such
a major factor in the issue.

[rest of promotional material snipped]

Dragonblaze

- Who did EVER hear of vegan dragons? -

On Jun 10, 12:27 pm, Dragonblaze > wrote:
> On 9 Jun, 17:14, Laurie > wrote:


> > Are you so ill-educated to assume that the Laws of
> > Biochemistry have somehow changed over time?
> > PLEASE provide some scientifically-credible support for this
> > statement, or be polite enough to withdraw it.
> > You are not authorized to just make science up to suit your
> > agenda.
>
> State the "Laws of Biochemistry" - whatever they might be.
>
> What did you find so difficult about my statement? It was: "We
> certainly used to . We now pay other people to specialize in things we
> no longer have time for."
>
> If you are doubting we have been omnivores throughout human existence,


Most mammals (including cows) can ingest meat. This doesn't mean cows
or humans naturally adapted to digest meat & fruit equally (reflected
in disease risks from meat ingestion like diverticulitis, gout,
cancer, etc). Florida alligators instinctively eat pond apples. Since
gators don't seem to get sick from meat or pond apples, you could say
these gators are better adapted to omnivory than people.

> I will refer you to prehistoric archaeological sites with all the
> charred and cracked animal bones, or the prehistoric cave paintings
> and/or rock carvings with depictions of hunting scenes or game
> animals.

The digestive system of H. Sapiens direct lineage didn't coincide w/
cave paintings. Ancestors were already specialized frugivores &
resorted to eating meat marginally before kindling fire/during
depleted habitat/weather extremes but developed no requirement for
eating meat. During this current interglacial period, there is still
no morphological evidence H. Sapiens are nutritionally better suited
to trade any given amount of available fruit for any amount of meat
(nutritional needs reflecting natural adaptation). Plants are life
promoting/functional food in contrast to meat. Meat requires twice the
intestinal transit time & isn't fully digested. Burkitt, D.P. et al.
Dietary Fiber and disease. Journal of the American Medical
Association. 229:1068, 1974. Could you list 1 adaptation that allows
H. Sapiens to be better adapted to consuming any measure of meat over
available fruit?

Dragonblaze wrote:
> On 9 Jun, 17:14, Laurie > wrote:
>> Dragonblaze wrote:
> I'm not evading anything, ...
You are avoiding the question: "do you kill, dismember, and
eat raw your animal prey as all natural 'omnivores' do,
with your natural physiology? No guns, no knives, no fire.
If not, why not?"
Evading issues is simply dishonest. Answer the questions.

> ... raise my own animals or hunt for my food.
NO, BUT you COULD be loyal to your carnivorous "nature" by
consuming say, a mouse, raw. Just to support your "point"
about your false claim as to being an omnivore.
Start with a live mouse from a pet shop, and then work your
way through the stray dogs and cats in your neighborhood.

> What ugly reality you might be talking about?
The ugly and false reality of humans being an 'omnivore'.

> After all, the vegetables you much on were alive once.
The issue is not a "food" being "alive once", it is the
biochemistry involved. You have quite a talent for
obfuscating and avoiding the critical issues with
nonsensical trivia.

TCCampbell; The China Study
http://tinyurl.com/2v689m

video
http://tinyurl.com/6lcda6

discovered that the consumption of animal protein
and animal fat are THE CAUSES of the currently-popular
"degenerative diseases" in the largest epidemiological study
ever done relating degenerative diseases to diet. Try
reading a real book for a change.

>>> ... but as with all processes, world has moved on
>> Are you so ill-educated to assume that the Laws of
>> Biochemistry have somehow changed over time? PLEASE
>> provide some scientifically-credible support for this
>> statement, or be polite enough to withdraw it. You are
>> not authorized to just make science up to suit your
>> agenda.
>
> State the "Laws of Biochemistry" - whatever they might
> be.
More evasion; have you no self-respect?
You are the one making idiotic claims about human
biochemistry with your false belief that humans have
"evolved" to consume animals; we have NOT. You can present
NO real science that suggests so.
Making up lies about science is simply dishonest; try to be
honest. I realize that this will be difficult with no
relevant education: anatomy, physiology, biochemistry,
general science, genetics, ...
Please do not lie about science.

> What did you find so difficult about my statement?
It certainly is NOT "difficult", just irrelevant and foolish.

> If you are doubting we have been omnivores throughout
> human existence,
Our physiology and anatomy are that of a frugivorous ape.
Read a book!

http://www.gate.net/%7Erwms/primegendist.html
http://ecologos.org/anatomy.htm
http://ecologos.org/omni.htm
http://ecologos.org/chimphunt.htm
http://ecologos.org/pix/primatediets.gif
http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html#meat

? I will refer you to prehistoric
> archaeological sites with all the charred and cracked
> animal bones, or the prehistoric cave paintings and/or
> rock carvings with depictions of hunting scenes or game
> animals.
Irrelevant; clearly pre-fire, pre-tool humans were
frugivorous apes, so they left NO evidence of their totally
raw, plant-based diet, just like modern chimps leave no
evidence of their diet -- compost, ya know!
You seem to have a great difficulty understanding the
profound difference between the verbs: to DO, as in
culturally-conditioned behavior, and to BE, as in genetic
code and its biochemistry.
Humans are CULTURAL omnivores, quite certainly NOT NATURAL
omnivores.
Could you really not grasp this concept on your own? Any
"education"???

> Start with the Lascaux cave - and I can easily post
> references to even older sites than that.
Culture, not Nature; try to comprehend the profound DIFFERENCE.

> Take your own advice - and try explaining how "natural
> detoxing" managed to kill 22 million people in the
> Spanish Flu epidemic of 1919-1920.
Filthy living conditions, sewage running through the city
streets, unrefrigerated meat, putrefying dairy, ... are you
simply IGNORING the important environmental factors involved
to support a false belief?

>> I have no need to evade the issue, which is that human
>> biochemistry has NOT changed, as you fallaciously
>> imply.
> YOU'RE the one who's claiming that, since you imply that
> somehow we are now unable to consume animal products.
The epidemiology is unchallenged, read The China Study.
Humans can NOT consume dead, rotting, animal corpses AND be
healthy. Do you confuse "consume animal products" and being
healthy??

> Show me ONE culture/nation/tribe/whatever that can be
> shown to have been pre-industrial vegans. I will not hold
> my breath while waiting, for obvious reasons.
ALL pre-tool, pre-fire societies were exactly that:
raw, plant-based diets. For the same reason you do NOT
practice natural omnivorism. Even a two-year old knows this,
why can't you get this simple fact.
I know, your culturally-conditioned ego shields you from
the truth.

> to explain how and why your alleged vegans switched to a
> diet including animal ingredients.
Well known!
The foolish migration out of the Tropics into cold areas
that produced NO plant foods (fruits) during winter, and
the availability to eat animals, the only thing living
locally. Try to review your "archaeological data" in an
honest way.


> so the burden of proof is squarely on you.
Let's see you refute ANYthing I say; notice, I provide
copious citations; you provide NONE.

>>> As regards the human history, cracked and burnt
>>> animal bones are found everywhere in archaeological
>>> digs, from the earliest human sites on.
And where is the evidence of human raw fooders?
Or are you denying that humans ate exclusively RAW plants
BEFORE COOKING was discovered accidentally.
Are you as uneducated as you appear, or is this some sort
of juvenile joke?

>> You are apparently unaware that early humans, pre-tool
>> and fire ate a totally RAW diet of fruits and leaves,
>> as modern chimps do. Thus, they left NO long-term
>> remains, such as those always left by recent
>> flesh-eating tribes. Thus, raw-eating humans existed,
>> and were eating millions of years before fire and tools
>> were developed. Try to get your baby archeology
>> correct before you embarrass yourself like this
>> repeatedly. Thanks for the laugh.
>
> Any evidence for this assertion? No?
Humans eating a totally raw, natural diet would leave NO
evidence of their diet, just as chimps and other apes leave
no permanent record.
NO TOOLS, NO FIRE, NO PERMANENT EVIDENCE; get it?

> ... which no evidence whatsoever to back any of your
> claims up.
LIER! The are are well over 700 scientific citations on my
site that support everything I say. YOU have NONE!

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olduvai_Gorge ). Start with
> this article:
Irrelevant; any post-tool, post-fire physical evidence is
NOT related to natural human diet.

> Systematic Butchery by Plio/Pleistocene Hominids at
Do you deny that tools/fire are relatively RECENT
inventions that did not exist in the great majority of human
existence on this planet?

> Cut marks on small mammals ...
TOOLS, you moron.

> BTW, we ARE learning how to distinguish human toothmarks
> on gnawed bones, ...
Do you have any instincts to kill and eat RAW your animal
prey; why is there no instinct?

> http://www.dissertations.wsu.edu/The...ndt_050404.pdf
>
>
>
>
Hmmm, anthro-apologist.
http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html#a

> When, in your opinion, did the meat-eating culture you
> were talking about start?
No idea, but it is absolutely certain that human evolved on
a totally raw diet for the great majority of time on this
planet. I.e., COOKING is a relatively new fad, and confined
to the sickest species on the planet. No other animal
species manifest "degenerative diseases".

> Again, since you claimed that flu is natural detoxing,
> could you explain the 22 million dead I referred to
> above?
Filthy environment, sewage running in the streets, rotting
meats, ...


> I'm aware of it, but since it has come under severe
> criticism for what looks like severely flawed research
Point out these flaws, and reference Campbell's addressing
of same.

> I don't think it would be worth my while.
Too challenging to your culturally-conditioned belief
system. NO intellectual integrity.

You are simply being dishonest and willfully ignorant of
facts that challenge your ego, Try objectivity.

Laurie

--
Scientifically-credible info on plant-based human diets:
http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html
news:alt.food.vegan.science

On 11 Jun, 15:36, Laurie > wrote:
> Dragonblaze wrote:
> > On 9 Jun, 17:14, Laurie > wrote:
> >> Dragonblaze wrote:
>
> * > I'm not evading anything, ...
> * * * * You are avoiding the question: "do you kill, dismember, and
> eat raw your animal prey as all natural 'omnivores' do,
> with your natural physiology? *No guns, no knives, no fire.
> * If not, why not?"
> * * * * Evading issues is simply dishonest. *Answer the questions.
>
> > ... *raise my own animals or hunt for my food.
>
> * * * * NO, BUT you COULD be loyal to your carnivorous "nature" by
> consuming say, a *mouse, raw. *Just to support your "point"
> about your false claim as to being an omnivore.
> * * * * Start with a live mouse from a pet shop, and then work your
> way through the stray dogs and cats in your neighborhood.

Stop being more stupid than you really have to, please - if you can.
In fact, as I did inform you earlier, I like raw beef, and consume it
quite often. And that was mentioned in response to another of your
"scientifically backed facts" (not that I've seen you post one yet)
where you claimed meat has no flavour of its own.

You prove it SO true that we are what we eat - and I'd rather be an
animal than a vegetable like you.

> > What ugly reality you might be talking about?
>
> * * * * The ugly and false reality of humans being an 'omnivore'.

We've been that even before we became homo sapiens. Evidence for my
claim will be presented later on.

> > After all, the vegetables you much on were alive once.
>
> * * * * The issue is not a "food" being "alive once", it is the
> biochemistry involved. *You have quite a talent for
> obfuscating and avoiding the critical issues with
> nonsensical trivia.
>
> * * * * TCCampbell; The China Studyhttp://tinyurl.com/2v689m
>
> * * *videohttp://tinyurl.com/6lcda6

[bullcrap unbacked claims snipped]

Oh, that debunked nonsense again. Stop boring me with bogus "research"
and bring on some peer-reviewed publications - if you actually manage
to find one.

What your faith-based holy book claims is neither convincing nor
interesting.

[snip].

> > State the "Laws of Biochemistry" - whatever they might
> > be.

[clueless ranting snipped]

> * * * * Please do not lie about science.

You would not know science if it bit you in the rear, judging from the
nonsense you spout.

And now state the bleeding laws of of biochemistry - or whatever you
might imagine them to be.

> > What did you find so difficult about my statement?
>
> * * * * It certainly is NOT "difficult", just irrelevant and foolish.
>
> > If you are doubting we have been omnivores throughout
> > human existence,
>
> * * * * Our physiology and anatomy are that of a frugivorous ape.
> Read a book!

Have done so. Several, and not just one pathetic crackpot propaganda
one such as the one you peddle.

Mind explaining the thinness of the human tooth enamel when compared
to herbivores?

> http://www.gate.net/%7Erwms/primegen...ttdd.html#meat
>
> ? I will refer you to prehistoric> archaeological sites with all the charred and cracked
> > animal bones, or the prehistoric cave paintings and/or
> > rock carvings with depictions of hunting scenes or game
> > animals.
>
> * * * * Irrelevant; clearly pre-fire, pre-tool humans were
> frugivorous apes, so they left NO evidence of their totally
> raw, plant-based diet, just like modern chimps leave no
> evidence of their diet -- compost, ya know!

EVER heard of isotope analysis? I thought not...

> * * * * You seem to have a great difficulty understanding the
> profound difference between the verbs: to DO, as in
> culturally-conditioned behavior, and to BE, as in genetic
> code and its biochemistry.
> * * * * Humans are CULTURAL omnivores, quite certainly NOT NATURAL
> omnivores.
> * * * * Could you really not grasp this concept on your own? *Any
> "education"???

Says you. I'm still waiting for ANY evidence for your claims, which
seems to be curiously lacking... As if it just was not available....

All the hysterical ranting you do will not change one iota the fact
that you either cannot or for some reason are unwilling to present ANY
valid evidence to back your claims.

> > Start with the Lascaux cave - and I can easily post
> > references to even older sites than that.
>
> * * * * Culture, not Nature; try to comprehend the profound DIFFERENCE.
>
> > Take your own advice - and try explaining how "natural
> > detoxing" managed to kill 22 million people in the
> > Spanish Flu epidemic of 1919-1920.
>
> * * * * Filthy living conditions, sewage running through the city
> streets, unrefrigerated meat, putrefying dairy, ... are you
> simply IGNORING the important environmental factors involved
> to support a false belief?

Who's avoiding now, eh? You claimed flu-like symptoms are really
"natural detox" - don't remember you saying anything about
environment.

Besides, USA of the 1919 does NOT, repeat NOT qualify - and neither
does England. You're describing conditions that were gone from the
major urban areas of the industrial world by 1919, so try again.

And why just then and not, say 1859, when at least some of those
conditions were still present, and people had flu epidemics, just not
from such a virulent strain?

YOU are ignoring what the environment of 1919-20 really was in let's
say New York, which had 33,000 dead from it. Go do some research about
just how much sewage they had on the streets...

> >> I have no need to evade the issue, which is that human
> >> *biochemistry has NOT changed, as you fallaciously
> >> imply.
> > YOU'RE the one who's claiming that, since you imply that
> > somehow we are now unable to consume animal products.
>
> * * * * The epidemiology is unchallenged, read The China Study.
> * * * * Humans can NOT consume dead, rotting, animal corpses AND be
> healthy. *Do you confuse "consume animal products" and being
> healthy??

I'm not interested in some faith-based bogus "study". Humans seem to
be bloody healthy on animal-based diets, and thrive on it. Thing is,
dearie, we spread all over the globe happily munching animal diet on
the way. I guess you are really clueless as regards natural selection
and what the consquences would be if your unbacked claims really were
true.

> > Show me ONE culture/nation/tribe/whatever that can be
> > shown to have been pre-industrial vegans. I will not hold
> > *my breath while waiting, for obvious reasons.
>
> * * * * ALL pre-tool, pre-fire societies were exactly that:
> raw, plant-based diets. *For the same reason you do NOT
> practice natural omnivorism. *Even a two-year old knows this,
> why can't you get this simple fact.
> * * * * I know, your culturally-conditioned ego shields you from
> the truth.

So you cannot name a single one. Not surprised, since there ARE none
found yet.

You base your claims solely on your bias and faith, even when it is a
known fact that even other primates supplement their diet with meat or
fish - the macaques were in the news only yesterday for that reason.

Your faith shields you from reality, just like any other faith-head.

And your faith about the pre-tool, pre-fire vegans is about to be
challenged later. Try and keep up with research, will you?

> > to explain how and why your alleged vegans switched to a
> > diet including animal ingredients.
>
> * * * * Well known!
> * * * * The foolish migration out of the Tropics into cold areas
> that produced NO plant foods (fruits) during winter, and
> the availability to eat animals, the only thing living
> locally. *Try to review your "archaeological data" in an
> honest way.

Chimps still live in the tropics, as do the macaques, and both eat
either meat or fish. Nice try, but wrong, as usual.

> > so the burden *of proof is squarely on you.
>
> * * * * Let's see you refute ANYthing I say; notice, I provide
> copious citations; you provide NONE.

You're the one making the claim, so you prove it. I

have YET to see any valid evidence from you. Try something that is
actually peer-reviewed, since you seem to have SUCH a respect for
science - if you happen to know what peer-reviewed is.

> >>> As regards the human history, cracked and burnt
> >>> animal bones are found everywhere in archaeological
> >>> digs, from the earliest human sites on.
>
> * * * * And where is the evidence of human *raw fooders?
> * * * * Or are you denying that humans ate exclusively RAW plants
> BEFORE COOKING was discovered accidentally.
> * * * * Are you as uneducated as you appear, or is this some sort
> of juvenile joke?

LOL - look who's talking!

Of course I'm denying it, based on what I know about primate behaviour
- and something else I will present later.. Chimps - and they are very
close genetic relatives to homo sapiens - supplement their diet with
animals. What makes you think that our ancestors did not do the same,
or scavenge? Scavenging freshly-killed carcasses would not be carrion
eating, and well within human tolerance.

But of course you will ignore this fact, or twist it out of all
recognition to deny reality - just like any fundie creationist would
do.

> > ... *which no evidence whatsoever to back any of your
> > claims up.
>
> * * * * LIER! *The are are well over 700 scientific citations on my
> site that support everything I say. *YOU have NONE!

That is actually spelled 'liar.' Stop being so hysterical.

Let's see them then - some peer-reviewed would be nice, if you manage
to find any. All I've seen so far are either from encyclopedias - and
had you ever attended university, you would have been told in your
freshman year that they are not a scientific source - or from
uncredited sources.

> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olduvai_Gorge). Start with
> > this article:
>
> * * * * Irrelevant; any post-tool, post-fire physical evidence is
> NOT related to natural human diet.

Okay....

Isotopic Evidence for the Diet of an Early Hominid, Australopithecus
africanus
Matt Sponheimer, Julia A. Lee-Thorp

"Current consensus holds that the 3-million-year-old hominid
Australopithecus africanus subsisted on fruits and leaves, much as the
modern chimpanzee does. Stable carbon isotope analysis of A. africanus
from Makapansgat Limeworks, South Africa, demonstrates that this early
hominid ate not only fruits and leaves but also large quantities of
carbon-13-enriched foods such as grasses and sedges OR ANIMALS THAT
ATE THESE PLANTS, OR BOTH [emphasis mine]. The results suggest that
early hominids regularly exploited relatively open environments such
as woodlands or grasslands for food. They may also suggest that
hominids consumed high-quality animal foods before the development of
stone tools and the origin of the genus Homo."

M. Sponheimer, Department of Anthropology, Rutgers University, New
Brunswick NJ 08901-1414, USA, and Department of Archaeology,
University of Cape Town, Private Bag, Rondebosch 7701, Republic of
South Africa. J. A. Lee-Thorp, Department of Archaeology, University
of Cape Town, Private Bag, Rondebosch 7701, Republic of South Africa.
"

Dental Evidence for the Diet of Australopithecus

R F Kay *

"Gracile Australopithecus,. being carnivorous in part, had less need
for large grinding teeth."

Annual Review of Anthropology
Vol. 14: 315-341 (Volume publication date October 1985)

[snip]

> > When, in your opinion, did the meat-eating culture you
> > were talking about start?
>
> * * * * No idea, but it is absolutely certain that human evolved on
> a totally raw diet for the great majority of time on this
> planet. *I.e., COOKING is a relatively new fad, and confined
> to the sickest species on the planet. *No other animal
> species manifest "degenerative diseases".

Looks like pre-tool, pre-fire homininds ate meat - judging from the
isotope analysis of their fossilised teeth. What else can I debunk for
you today?

Most of the wild animals die too young to manifest any such diseases.
You can, however, see them in family pets, which have much longer
lifespans than wild animals. The same fallacy has been employed by
food faddists before you, but it is simply not true. They tended to
cite India, which is largely vegetarian, as relatively free from such
diseases - but when you see what the life expectancy and the average
age of death was, the real reason becomes apparent.

We also do quite a few "unnatural" other things, like build houses,
wear clothes or use computers. Do you make a nest in the trees each
night, as that would be "natural" for your vegan species?

[snip]

> * > I'm aware of it, but since it has come under severe> criticism for what looks like severely flawed research
>
> * * * * Point out these flaws, and reference Campbell's addressing
> of same.

Campbell has a really weird idea about the Chinese diet, as anyone
who's ever been there can tell you. Far from being vegan, the average
Chinese diet is full of animal ingredients, pork and seafood being
especial favourites.

As for the rest, someone else has already done a critique of
Campbell's little exercise of faith so here it is:

http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/China-Study.html

That is clearly an unwarranted assumption. When he says "very likely"
that means he has NOT actually researched the issue, but is guessing
instead.

I have also noticed how China Study has failed to make any impact on
the scientific community. I have yet to see it cited in any serious
scientific journal. In fact, China Study has basically been completely
abandoned by the scientific community because it contained data
gathering error, inadequate statistical review, and outright falsehood
and it isn't peer reviewed That you imagine it to be scientific, is no
problem of mine, of course.

> > I don't think it would be worth my while.
>
> * * * * Too challenging to your culturally-conditioned belief
> system. *NO intellectual integrity.

I also am not interested in Flat-Earth arguments, geocentricity, ID
and other such nonsense for exactly the same reasons I'm not
interested in China Study.

> * * * * You are simply being dishonest and willfully ignorant of
> facts that challenge your ego, *Try objectivity.

Says a committed faith-head. Such irony....

> Scientifically-credible info on plant-based human diets:http://ecologos.org/ttdd.html
> news:alt.food.vegan.science

Were I you, I'd change that .sig before the Trades Description Act
catches up with you.

Dragonblaze