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Vegan (alt.food.vegan) This newsgroup exists to share ideas and issues of concern among vegans. We are always happy to share our recipes- perhaps especially with omnivores who are simply curious- or even better, accomodating a vegan guest for a meal! |
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Eating animal products (was: Satan as a Composite Entity/Being?)
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Posted to alt.satanism, misc.rural, alt.food.vegan, alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
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Eating animal products (was: Satan as a CompositeEntity/Being?)
On Jan 28, 10:33*am, dh@. wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:36:05 -0800 (PST), wrote: > >Showing what goes on in > >the meat industry would never make it on television. *How different is > >it really? *It's too close to home. *It would make us 'the bad guys', > >but we are. *We just don't want to know it. > > * · Because there are so many different situations > involved in the raising of meat animals, it is completely > unfair to the animals to think of them all in the same > way, as "ARAs" appear to do. To think that all of it is > cruel, and to think of all animals which are raised for > the production of food in the same way, oversimplifies > and distorts one's interpretation of the way things > really are. Just as it would to think that there is no > cruelty or abuse at all. > > * * Beef cattle spend nearly their entire lives outside > grazing, which is not a bad way to live. Veal are > confined to such a degree that they appear to have > terrible lives, so there's no reason to think of both > groups of animals in the same way. > * * Chickens raised as fryers and broilers, and egg > producers who are in a cage free environment--as well as > the birds who parent all of them, and the birds who parent > battery hens--are raised in houses, but not in cages. The > lives of those birds are not bad. Battery hens are confined > to cages, and have what appear to be terrible lives, so > there is no reason to think of battery hens and the other > groups in the same way. · david "death" harrison david devil harrison david horrible harrison david hell harrison is the boss with the bad sauce is the lice with the spice is the disease if-you-please is the slime of the time is the unchanged tampon is the unsplendid splinter david "death" harrison |
Posted to alt.satanism, misc.rural, alt.food.vegan, alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
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Eating animal products (was: Satan as a CompositeEntity/Being?)
On Jan 29, 4:56 pm, "Ronald 'More-More' Moshki"
> wrote: > [crap] Shut the **** up, you impotent queer. You don't know ****-all about boxing, either. |
Posted to alt.satanism, misc.rural, alt.food.vegan, alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
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Eating animal products (was: Satan as a CompositeEntity/Being?)
On Jan 28, 9:33 am, dh@. wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:36:05 -0800 (PST), wrote: > >Showing what goes on in > >the meat industry would never make it on television. How different is > >it really? It's too close to home. It would make us 'the bad guys', > >but we are. We just don't want to know it. > > · Because there are so many different situations > involved in the raising of meat animals, it is completely > unfair to the animals to think of them all in the same > way, as "ARAs" appear to do. To think that all of it is > cruel, and to think of all animals which are raised for > the production of food in the same way, oversimplifies > and distorts one's interpretation of the way things > really are. Just as it would to think that there is no > cruelty or abuse at all. > > Beef cattle spend nearly their entire lives outside > grazing, which is not a bad way to live. Veal are > confined to such a degree that they appear to have > terrible lives, so there's no reason to think of both > groups of animals in the same way. > Chickens raised as fryers and broilers, and egg > producers who are in a cage free environment--as well as > the birds who parent all of them, and the birds who parent > battery hens--are raised in houses, but not in cages. The > lives of those birds are not bad. Battery hens are confined > to cages, and have what appear to be terrible lives, so > there is no reason to think of battery hens and the other > groups in the same way. · Hey, I agree with you in some of your points, that there're significant differences between different productions. However, how do we determine who of them have a better live or a worst live. According to who or what the animals have or not have a pleasant life. I believe that there's no "perfect" production system where animals don't have any stress at all. But I also believe that we tend to "humanize" animals needs. For example, if we talk about space and we compare two different reproductive herds of sows where one is hosed in big pens, with other sows and plenty space to move; and the other herd is housed in individual crates, lined up all through the barn, and with huge move limitations, it would be easy to think that the second group is having a horrible live experience. But it is right here when we are humanizing their needs by thinking in that way, because if we measure the levels of cortisol in the sows of both groups (knowing that cortisol is the major substance released by the pigs in stress situations) we can see no difference in the level of stress between both groups. Even if their stressors are different, they actually live in the same level of stress. So, what or who can tell us which group has the better live? |
Posted to alt.satanism, misc.rural, alt.food.vegan, alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
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Eating animal products (was: Satan as a CompositeEntity/Being?)
On Jan 28, 9:33 am, dh@. wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:36:05 -0800 (PST), wrote: > >Showing what goes on in > >the meat industry would never make it on television. How different is > >it really? It's too close to home. It would make us 'the bad guys', > >but we are. We just don't want to know it. > > · Because there are so many different situations > involved in the raising of meat animals, it is completely > unfair to the animals to think of them all in the same > way, as "ARAs" appear to do. To think that all of it is > cruel, and to think of all animals which are raised for > the production of food in the same way, oversimplifies > and distorts one's interpretation of the way things > really are. Just as it would to think that there is no > cruelty or abuse at all. > > Beef cattle spend nearly their entire lives outside > grazing, which is not a bad way to live. Veal are > confined to such a degree that they appear to have > terrible lives, so there's no reason to think of both > groups of animals in the same way. > Chickens raised as fryers and broilers, and egg > producers who are in a cage free environment--as well as > the birds who parent all of them, and the birds who parent > battery hens--are raised in houses, but not in cages. The > lives of those birds are not bad. Battery hens are confined > to cages, and have what appear to be terrible lives, so > there is no reason to think of battery hens and the other > groups in the same way. · Hey, I agree with you in some of your points, that there're significant differences between different productions. However, how do we determine who of them have a better live or a worst live. According to who or what the animals have or not have a pleasant life. I believe that there's no "perfect" production system where animals don't have any stress at all. But I also believe that we tend to "humanize" animals needs. For example, if we talk about space and we compare two different reproductive herds of sows where one is hosed in big pens, with other sows and plenty space to move; and the other herd is housed in individual crates, lined up all through the barn, and with huge move limitations, it would be easy to think that the second group is having a horrible live experience. But it is right here when we are humanizing their needs by thinking in that way, because if we measure the levels of cortisol in the sows of both groups (knowing that cortisol is the major substance released by the pigs in stress situations) we can see no difference in the level of stress between both groups. Even if their stressors are different, they actually live in the same level of stress. So, what or who can tell us which group has the better live? |
Posted to alt.satanism,misc.rural,alt.food.vegan,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian
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Eating animal products (was: Satan as a Composite Entity/Being?)
> wrote in message ...
On Jan 28, 9:33 am, dh@. wrote: > On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:36:05 -0800 (PST), wrote: > >Showing what goes on in > >the meat industry would never make it on television. How different is > >it really? It's too close to home. It would make us 'the bad guys', > >but we are. We just don't want to know it. > > · Because there are so many different situations > involved in the raising of meat animals, it is completely > unfair to the animals to think of them all in the same > way, as "ARAs" appear to do. To think that all of it is > cruel, and to think of all animals which are raised for > the production of food in the same way, oversimplifies > and distorts one's interpretation of the way things > really are. Just as it would to think that there is no > cruelty or abuse at all. > > Beef cattle spend nearly their entire lives outside > grazing, which is not a bad way to live. Veal are > confined to such a degree that they appear to have > terrible lives, so there's no reason to think of both > groups of animals in the same way. > Chickens raised as fryers and broilers, and egg > producers who are in a cage free environment--as well as > the birds who parent all of them, and the birds who parent > battery hens--are raised in houses, but not in cages. The > lives of those birds are not bad. Battery hens are confined > to cages, and have what appear to be terrible lives, so > there is no reason to think of battery hens and the other > groups in the same way. · > >Hey, I agree with you in some of your points, that there're >significant differences between different productions. However, how do >we determine who of them have a better live or a worst live. According >to who or what the animals have or not have a pleasant life. I >believe that there's no "perfect" production system where animals >don't have any stress at all. But I also believe that we tend to >"humanize" animals needs. For example, if we talk about space and we >compare two different reproductive herds of sows where one is hosed in >big pens, with other sows and plenty space to move; and the other herd >is housed in individual crates, lined up all through the barn, and >with huge move limitations, it would be easy to think that the second >group is having a horrible live experience. But it is right here when >we are humanizing their needs by thinking in that way, because if we >measure the levels of cortisol in the sows of both groups (knowing >that cortisol is the major substance released by the pigs in stress >situations) we can see no difference in the level of stress between >both groups. Even if their stressors are different, they actually live >in the same level of stress. So, what or who can tell us which group >has the better live? 'Abstract American Journal of Veterinary Research September 2005, Vol. 66, No. 9, Pages 1630-1638 doi: 10.2460/ajvr.2005.66.1630 Evaluation of well-being, productivity, and longevity of pregnant sows housed in groups in pens with an electronic sow feeder or separately in gestation stalls Leena Anil , BVSc, PhD Sukumarannair S. Anil , MVSc, PhD John Deen , DVM, PhD Samuel K. Baidoo , PhD Jonathan E. Wheaton , PhD Department of Veterinary Population Medicine, University of Minnesota, Saint Paul, MN 55108. (Anil, Anil, Deen); Southern Research and Outreach Center, University of Minnesota, Waseca, MN 56093. (Baidoo); College of Veterinary Medicine, and the Department of Animal Science, College of Agriculture, University of Minnesota, Saint Paul, MN 55108. (Wheaton) Objective-To compare well-being, performance, and longevity of gestating sows housed in stalls or in pens with an electronic sow feeder (ESF). Animals-382 pregnant sows of parities 1 through 6. Procedure-Sows were housed in separate stalls (n = 176) or group pens (206) with an ESF. Well-being of sows was assessed at various time points in terms of injuries, salivary cortisol concentration, and behavior in a novel arena or to a novel object. Farrowing performance and longevity of sows were also assessed. Results-Total injury scores (TIS) of sows in pens were significantly higher at initial introduction and mixing. In stall-housed sows, TIS was significantly higher during late gestation. The TIS and cortisol concentration were significantly lower in stall-housed sows, compared with values for sows in pens. As parity increased, the likelihood of higher median TIS decreased significantly in pen-housed sows and increased significantly in stall-housed sows. The TIS of sows in pens was negatively correlated with body weight and backfat thickness, whereas these correlations were positive in stall-housed sows. Farrowing performance and results for novel arena or objects did not differ. Proportion of sows removed was significantly higher for pens than for stalls; lameness was the major reason for removal for both systems. Conclusions and Clinical Relevance-Stalls impose space restrictions for larger sows, resulting in injuries during late gestation. Interventions are needed to minimize aggression during initial introduction and mixing and at the ESF in pens to reduce severe injuries or lameness of gestating sows. (Am J Vet Res 2005;66:1630-1638) http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs...r.2005.66.1630 'Scientists and Experts on Gestation Crates and Sow Welfare Abstract In a letter to the editor published in the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, Dr. Brenda K. Forsythe summed up the question of the use of gestation crates and its impact on the health and welfare of sows. She wrote: "The premise is that housing intelligent, sentient beings for months in a space too small to turn around in constitutes cruelty, and I would have to agree. Most veterinarians decry the warehousing of small animals in puppy mill operations, so tell me how is the extreme confinement of other sentient animals any more acceptable to the veterinary community? There is an abundance of scientific literature demonstrating the adverse effects of gestation crate confinement on porcine well- being. Crated pigs develop a significant chronic stress response manifested by increased cortisol concentrations, compared with gilts housed in turnaround stalls. The well-being of stall-housed sows is compromised, compared with group-housed sows, on several indicators of welfare including behavioral stereotypes, aggression, and body weight."(1) Compiled below are statements by leading welfare scientists and experts who confirm that confining pregnant sows in gestation crates causes significant welfare problems. Dr. Bernard E. Rollin "Having visited, and extensively studied, examples of all contemporary systems utilized in confinement agriculture - be it poultry, veal, cattle, or swine - I can unhesitatingly affirm that sow stalls, or gestation crates, are the most egregious example of the application of industrial methods to animal production. While all of these systems are violative of animals' physical and psychological nature - what I call telos, following Aristotle - when one vectors into one's reckoning porcine intelligence, behavioral complexity under natural conditions, and severity of truncation of natural behaviors in these stalls, including even simple postural adjustment, gestation crates come to the forefront as the worst of a bad lot. I have personally witnessed ordinary people's response to their first experience of these crates, and have seen eminent academics emerge from a sow barn unabashedly in tears. I have also seen an open pen system for sows literally side by side with a stall system, and watched the extraordinary differences in the behavior of the sows. While those animals in the stalls exhibited fear, skittishness, a reluctance to approach humans, and what can only be called a mad facial expression, those in the open pens were friendly, inquisitive, and exploratory (even to the extent of one sow starting to eat my necktie while I was still wearing it)."(2) Scientific Veterinary Committee of the European Commission "When sows are put into a very small pen, they indicate by their behavioural responses that they find the confinement aversive. If given the opportunity, they leave the confined space and they usually resist attempts to make them return to that place."(3) "Stereotypies such as bar-biting, sham-chewing, drinker-pressing, head-weaving, repeated patterns of nosing in a trough and tongue- rolling have been reported by many authors as occurring in many sows confined in stalls or tethers."(4) "Stereotypies are a characteristic behaviour of sows confined in a small space, typically in stalls or tethers, with little complexity in their environment and little possibility for the sow to regulate her interactions with all aspects of her environment."(5) "Farmers often comment that their stall-housed or tethered sows are lying for much of the day. Since the extent of the inactivity and unresponsiveness indicates abnormal behaviour, the sows may well be depressed in the clinical sense and poor welfare is indicated. Some sows show this abnormal behaviour as an alternative to stereotypies and there are brain correlates of both of these types of abnormal behaviour."(6) "Another consequence of lack of exercise in stall-housed and tethered sows is that they use their cardiovascular system less. This is significant in the situation where many pigs which die during transport are diagnosed as having cardiovascular problems."(7) "Recommendation: Since overall welfare appears to be better when sows are not confined throughout gestation, sows should preferably be kept in groups."(8) Sows in groups "have more exercise, more control over their environment, more opportunity for normal social interactions and better potential for the provision of opportunities to root or manipulate materials....As a consequence, group housed sows show less abnormality of bone and muscle development, much less abnormal behaviour, less likelihood of extreme physiological responses, less of the urinary tract infections associated with inactivity, and better cardiovascular fitness."(9) American Veterinary Medical Association Task Force on the Housing of Pregnant Sows ...................' http://www.hsus.org/farm/resources/r...on_crates.html |
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Eating animal products (was: Satan as a Composite Entity/Being?)
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Eating animal products
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