Vegan (alt.food.vegan) This newsgroup exists to share ideas and issues of concern among vegans. We are always happy to share our recipes- perhaps especially with omnivores who are simply curious- or even better, accomodating a vegan guest for a meal!

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1141 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 28-04-2012, 04:00 AM posted to talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,misc.rural,uk.politics.animals
external usenet poster
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,025
Default ANIMAL RIGHTS BILL 1 - Tom Regan speaks.

"Rupert" wrote in message
...
On Apr 27, 8:06 pm, "Dutch" wrote:
"Rupert" wrote

Yes, there is, based on observation of primates like Koko the
gorilla
who have been taught sign language,


Does not demonstrate that anything "matters to her."


Of course things matter to Koko,


They don't. She has no awareness that there is a world, that she will
some day no longer be in it.


She does understand the concept of death,


On what do you base this?


She has discussions about it with her caregivers.


They don't know what she is thinking, if anything.

and she is aware of various
aspects of the world just as you and I are


No, not like that, human awareness is not like non-human awareness. I
was
going to elaborate but I shouldn't have to


I didn't say that her awareness was similar to ours in every respect.
I said it was a property we had in common, which is true.


So what? Fruit flies are aware of various aspects of the world too.

Also, her
awareness of the world is quite similar to what Ball's son's awareness
of the world was at the age of two.


So you repeat the AMC again and again, but that doesn't make it a valid
argument.

and just as your son was
when he was two years old.


His son possessed the capability to become a PhD in mathematics or a
great
philosopher or musician, the ape is permanently two years old.


I think Ball's son is retarded, isn't he?

Koko is learning the letters of the alphabet, she is not "permanently
two years old". She has less potential for cognitive development than
Ball's son, even if I am correct that Ball's son is retarded. So what?


Cognitively impaired humans may still possess the capability of higher
cognition, so we err on the safe side.


She has similar linguistic and cognitive
abilities to your son at the age of two. It is extremely obvious that
things matter to her, and that she is aware of the world. She also has
some understanding of the concept of death, although she becomes
fidgety and uncomfortable when asked to discuss her own death. It is
not clear to what extent she is aware of her own mortality.


All unsupported supposition.


No.

Yes, the interpretations of her trainers have been discredited by other
researchers. She mimics them.



  #1142 (permalink)   Report Post  
Old 04-05-2012, 06:10 PM posted to talk.politics.animals,alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan,misc.rural,uk.politics.animals
external usenet poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,380
Default ANIMAL RIGHTS BILL 1 - Tom Regan speaks.

On Apr 28, 1:00*pm, "Dutch" wrote:
"Rupert" wrote in message

...









On Apr 27, 8:06 pm, "Dutch" wrote:
"Rupert" wrote


Yes, there is, based on observation of primates like Koko the
gorilla
who have been taught sign language,


Does not demonstrate that anything "matters to her."


Of course things matter to Koko,


They don't. *She has no awareness that there is a world, that she will
some day no longer be in it.


She does understand the concept of death,


On what do you base this?


She has discussions about it with her caregivers.


They don't know what she is thinking, if anything.


How do you know?

and she is aware of various
aspects of the world just as you and I are


No, not like that, human awareness is not like non-human awareness. I
was
going to elaborate but I shouldn't have to


I didn't say that her awareness was similar to ours in every respect.
I said it was a property we had in common, which is true.


So what? Fruit flies are aware of various aspects of the world too.


Ball claimed that animals are not aware of the world, which is obvious
rubbish. You may think it is a trivial point, if so take up the matter
with Ball who brought up the subject.

Also, her
awareness of the world is quite similar to what Ball's son's awareness
of the world was at the age of two.


So you repeat the AMC again and again, but that doesn't make it a valid
argument.


I didn't repeat the AMC, I made a correct assertion. If Ball wants to
claim that Koko is not aware of the world then he should also claim
that his son was not aware of the world at the age of two.



and just as your son was
when he was two years old.


His son possessed the capability to become a PhD in mathematics or a
great
philosopher or musician, the ape is permanently two years old.


I think Ball's son is retarded, isn't he?


Koko is learning the letters of the alphabet, she is not "permanently
two years old". She has less potential for cognitive development than
Ball's son, even if I am correct that Ball's son is retarded. So what?


Cognitively impaired humans may still possess the capability of higher
cognition, so we err on the safe side.


What's "higher cognition" exactly?

She has similar linguistic and cognitive
abilities to your son at the age of two. It is extremely obvious that
things matter to her, and that she is aware of the world. She also has
some understanding of the concept of death, although she becomes
fidgety and uncomfortable when asked to discuss her own death. It is
not clear to what extent she is aware of her own mortality.


All unsupported supposition.


No.


Yes, the interpretations of her trainers have been discredited by other
researchers. She mimics them.


Which other researchers?


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Fried food heart risk 'a myth' (as long as you use olive oil or sunflower oil)" Christopher M.[_3_] General Cooking 34 07-02-2012 05:31 PM
The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate Fred C. Dobbs[_2_] Vegan 47 24-05-2010 03:22 PM
The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate Rudy Canoza[_4_] Vegan 448 23-03-2008 07:06 AM
+ Asian Food Experts: Source for "Silver Needle" or "Rat Tail" Noodles? + Chris General Cooking 1 29-12-2006 07:13 PM
The myth of food production "efficiency" in the "ar" debate Jonathan Ball Vegan 76 28-02-2004 10:16 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:09 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2019 FoodBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Food and drink"

 

Copyright © 2017