Hello all,

OK - to start, this is not a flame thread - I'm hoping its a real discussion
about WHY people choose to be vegan. I'm not a vegan, but am in the food
industry starting out as a chef.

So, I'll start with the bits and pieces of what I have heard over the years:

"Meat is a corrupt industry! Why take part in it?". Can someone please tell
me what exactly is corrupt about it?

"You cant kill another animal - Animals have rights!" OK, I can see the
argument from the viewpoint as if I were the animal. However, if I went
camping, and encounted a hungry bear, I'm sure Mr Bear would NOT consider my
'rights' to not be eaten. Please expand on this for me.

"Vegetables don't have a central nervous system, therefore cannot be aware
of what is happening to them." I can think of something like goldfish,
which have only the most basic of reactive brain funtion (eat, swim, avoid
objects, poop) and its doubtfull they have any real concept of what is going
on around them. Would they then be OK to eat, depending on the "stupid
factor"?

Last question: Is it OK for vegans to kill? I mean things like flies and
cockroaches, etc. Just cuious.

Again, this is not intended to be a flame message - its some real questions
I have.

Thanks!

<dh@.> wrote in message ...
> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:39:39 GMT, "ArmisBrooks" > wrote:
>
> >Hello all,
> >
> >OK - to start, this is not a flame thread - I'm hoping its a real
discussion
> >about WHY people choose to be vegan. I'm not a vegan, but am in the food
> >industry starting out as a chef.

Well there we are then. As if a chef is going to be tolerant to Veganism and
be prepared to discuss diet rationally? My arse!

Bleedin troll again!

On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:39:39 GMT, "ArmisBrooks" > wrote:

>Hello all,
>
>OK - to start, this is not a flame thread - I'm hoping its a real discussion
>about WHY people choose to be vegan. I'm not a vegan, but am in the food
>industry starting out as a chef.
>
>So, I'll start with the bits and pieces of what I have heard over the years:
>
>"Meat is a corrupt industry! Why take part in it?". Can someone please tell
>me what exactly is corrupt about it?

· Since the animals we raise for food would not be alive
if we didn't raise them for that purpose, it's a distortion of
reality not to take that fact into consideration whenever
we think about the fact that the animals are going to be
killed. The animals are not being cheated out of any part
of their life by being raised for food, but instead they are
experiencing whatever life they get as a result of it. ·

· Because there are so many different situations
involved in the raising of meat animals, it is completely
unfair to the animals to think of them all in the same
way, as "ARAs" appear to do. To think that all of it is
cruel, and to think of all animals which are raised for
the production of food in the same way, oversimplifies
and distorts one's interpretation of the way things
really are. Just as it would to think that there is no
cruelty or abuse at all.

Beef cattle spend nearly their entire lives outside
grazing, which is not a bad way to live. Veal are
confined to such a degree that they appear to have
terrible lives, so there's no reason to think of both
groups of animals in the same way. Chickens raised as
fryers and broilers, and egg producers who are in a cage
free environment--as well as the birds who parent all of
them, and the birds who parent battery hens--are raised
in houses, but not in cages. The lives of those birds are
not bad. Battery hens are confined to cages, and have what
appear to be terrible lives, so there is no reason to think
of battery hens and the other groups in the same way. ·

>"You cant kill another animal - Animals have rights!" OK, I can see the
>argument from the viewpoint as if I were the animal. However, if I went
>camping, and encounted a hungry bear, I'm sure Mr Bear would NOT consider my
>'rights' to not be eaten. Please expand on this for me.

Rights are invented by humans, and are only of any value
if the invention is observed and respected by others. Since no
animals can be taught the concept of rights they could never
learn to respect the invented rights of others, so the concept
of rights for animals could never actually work. The "best"
that could happen would be to restrict what humans are legally
allowed to do, while all other animals would still be allowed to
do whatever they want to each other.

One question you might try finding the answer to from
these "aras" is: Which rights for which animals? Since "aras"
happily contribute to the same wildlife deaths that everyone
else does it doesn't seem likely they want provide much in
the way of rights for them. And since "ar" would *eliminate*
domestic animals it necessarily could *not!* provide rights
for them. So...???

>"Vegetables don't have a central nervous system, therefore cannot be aware
>of what is happening to them." I can think of something like goldfish,
>which have only the most basic of reactive brain funtion (eat, swim, avoid
>objects, poop) and its doubtfull they have any real concept of what is going
>on around them. Would they then be OK to eat, depending on the "stupid
>factor"?

Fish can see, they can hear, they can smell and they can
taste. Since they can experience those senses it seems
very ignorant for anyone to conclude that they can't feel
as well. It seems even more ingnorant to conclude that
something they cannot feel is pain. It sux, but we need to
just accept the fact that they can feel pain, and that a lot
of suffering is involved with fish.

>Last question: Is it OK for vegans to kill? I mean things like flies and
>cockroaches, etc. Just cuious.

· Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of
buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.
What they try to avoid are products which provide life
(and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
to avoid the following in order to be successful:

Tires, Paper, Upholstery, Floor waxes, Glass, Water
Filters, Rubber, Fertilizer, Antifreeze, Ceramics, Insecticides,
Insulation, Linoleum, Plastic, Textiles, Blood factors, Collagen,
Heparin, Insulin, Solvents, Biodegradable Detergents, Herbicides,
Gelatin Capsules, Adhesive Tape, Laminated Wood Products,
Plywood, Paneling, Wallpaper and Wallpaper Paste, Cellophane
Wrap and Tape, Abrasives, Steel Ball Bearings

The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
slaughters, and the animals live and die as a result of it
as animals do in other habitats. They also depend on it for
their lives as animals do in other habitats. If people consume
animal products from animals they think are raised in decent
ways, they will be promoting life for more such animals in the
future. People who want to contribute to decent lives for
livestock with their lifestyle must do it by being conscientious
consumers of animal products, because they can not do it by
being vegan.

From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is
likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings
derived from grass raised animals. Grass raised animal products
contribute to fewer wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and
better lives for livestock than soy or rice products. ·

>Again, this is not intended to be a flame message - its some real questions
>I have.
>
>Thanks!
>

"nemo" > wrote in message
.uk...
>
> <dh@.> wrote in message
> ...
>> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:39:39 GMT, "ArmisBrooks"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >Hello all,
>> >
>> >OK - to start, this is not a flame thread - I'm hoping its a
>> >real
> discussion
>> >about WHY people choose to be vegan. I'm not a vegan, but am
>> >in the food
>> >industry starting out as a chef.
>
> Well there we are then. As if a chef is going to be tolerant to
> Veganism and
> be prepared to discuss diet rationally? My arse!
>
> Bleedin troll again!
> =======================
ROTFLMAO Unlike you of course that NEVER has anything of
substance to add to a discussion. Oh, wait, that would require
you to think, and your diet has killed all the remaining
braincells you should have had. Come on back little-one when you
can play with the big dogs.




cue the ignorance, again.....



>

No, dear Nemo... Not trolling.. Looking for answers to understand the logic
& drive.

What? you've never heard of a Vegan Chef? As a chef, its my job to
understand all diets - It only helps me understand more to get what drives a
vegan to be a vegan.

Am a looking to see if vegans are nuts? Maybe. I'm pretty judgemental. I'll
admit it. But i'm goiong to ask the questions anyway for those who choose
to answer.

Please - Anti-vegans - don't bother posting on this thread - I notice its
the same cut & paste B.S. that are in other threads. Ive already read it,
understand your postion, and have moved on. What you have to say is not
germain to WHY people choose to be vegan.

Chris

"nemo" > wrote in message
.uk...
>
> <dh@.> wrote in message ...
>> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:39:39 GMT, "ArmisBrooks" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Hello all,
>> >
>> >OK - to start, this is not a flame thread - I'm hoping its a real
> discussion
>> >about WHY people choose to be vegan. I'm not a vegan, but am in the
>> >food
>> >industry starting out as a chef.
>
> Well there we are then. As if a chef is going to be tolerant to Veganism
> and
> be prepared to discuss diet rationally? My arse!
>
> Bleedin troll again!
>
>

No, dear Nemo... Not trolling.. Looking for answers to understand the logic
& drive.

What? you've never heard of a Vegan Chef? As a chef, its my job to
understand all diets - It only helps me understand more to get what drives a
vegan to be a vegan.

Am a looking to see if vegans are nuts? Maybe. I'm pretty judgemental. I'll
admit it. But i'm goiong to ask the questions anyway for those who choose
to answer.

Please - Anti-vegans - don't bother posting on this thread - I notice its
the same cut & paste B.S. that are in other threads. Ive already read it,
understand your postion, and have moved on. What you have to say is not
germain to WHY people choose to be vegan.

Chris

"nemo" > wrote in message
.uk...
>
> <dh@.> wrote in message ...
>> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 14:39:39 GMT, "ArmisBrooks" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Hello all,
>> >
>> >OK - to start, this is not a flame thread - I'm hoping its a real
> discussion
>> >about WHY people choose to be vegan. I'm not a vegan, but am in the
>> >food
>> >industry starting out as a chef.
>
> Well there we are then. As if a chef is going to be tolerant to Veganism
> and
> be prepared to discuss diet rationally? My arse!
>
> Bleedin troll again!
>
>