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Default organic spinach at center of outbreak

Organic doesn't mean "healthier," "more nutritious," or "safer." The
latest food-borne scare involves organic produce -- just as the Odwalla
incident several years ago did. Organic only means free of SYNTHETIC
pesticides. In the US, there is no oversight of how much pesticide is
used on organic crops, nor is there testing for any residue on organic
produce (conventional foods, though, play by a tougher set of
safety rules).

===============
WASHINGTON - A California natural-foods company was linked Friday to a
nationwide E. coli outbreak involving packaged spinach that has killed
one person and sickened nearly 100 others. Supermarkets across the
country pulled spinach from shelves, and consumers tossed out the leafy
green.

Food and Drug Administration (FDA) officials said they had received
reports of illness in 19 states...

The outbreak was traced to Natural Selection Foods, based in San Juan
Bautista, Calif., and the company has voluntarily recalled products
containing spinach. The company, which bills itself as the largest
grower and shipper of organic produce in North America, also operates
under the name Earthbound Farm and packages spinach for more than 30
companies.

FDA officials stressed that the bacteria had not been isolated in
products sold by Natural Selection Foods but that the link was
established by patient accounts of what they had eaten before becoming
ill...
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...spinach16.html
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Default organic spinach at center of outbreak

It will probably turn out to have been an unhygienic contamination by
infected cow manure used as a fertilizer. There have been E.coli
outbreaks also in the past where sprouts were grown with infected rinse
water. They absorbed the bacteria, so washing well didn't matter.

I do hope Chucky Goat-Licker isn't trying to use the above E.coli post
as some sort of statement about vegetables being dangerous.
Hygiene-related food illnesses come in both flavours, veg and meat.
Cow dung since (I think) the 70s has been extra dangerous when exposed
to food (veg or meat) since the 0157 variety of E.coli became more
widespread.

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Default organic spinach at center of outbreak

I understand they are testing the groundwater used to irrigate the
spinach for the bad E. coli. If the fields in question are next to
Natural Selection Farms at 1721 San Juan Highway north of San Juan
Bautista, then they need to test both the spinach and the groundwater
for perchlorate as well. There is an undefined perchlorate plume in the
San Benito River wash that runs through there. The origin is an old
Teledyne explosive bolt/airbag factory next to the Hollister sewage
treatment plant. The groundwater next to the sewage treatment plant had
800 ppb perchlorate -- the Massachusetts drinking water standard is 2
ppb, the California standard is 6 ppb. In addition, the west coast
distributor for perchlorate-tainted Chilean nitrate fertilizer is just
up the road in Gilroy.

LLL

http://www.perchlorate.org

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Default organic spinach at center of outbreak


"Scented Nectar" > wrote
> It will probably turn out to have been an unhygienic contamination by
> infected cow manure used as a fertilizer.


Never miss an opportunity to cast blame on the meat industry, let others
worry about messy details like proof.


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Default organic spinach at center of outbreak


Dutch wrote:
> "Scented Nectar" > wrote
> > It will probably turn out to have been an unhygienic contamination by
> > infected cow manure used as a fertilizer.

>
> Never miss an opportunity to cast blame on the meat industry, let others
> worry about messy details like proof.


E.coli 0157 is found almost exclusively in farmed cows. It's obvious
that it had to get to the spinach by some means of contamination. If
not absolute proof, the finding that it's 0157 is certainly a strong
indicator that there's a cow connection. If that looks bad on the meat
industry, tough.



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Default organic spinach at center of outbreak


"Scented Nectar" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Dutch wrote:
>> "Scented Nectar" > wrote
>> > It will probably turn out to have been an unhygienic contamination by
>> > infected cow manure used as a fertilizer.

>>
>> Never miss an opportunity to cast blame on the meat industry, let others
>> worry about messy details like proof.

>
> E.coli 0157 is found almost exclusively in farmed cows. It's obvious
> that it had to get to the spinach by some means of contamination. If
> not absolute proof, the finding that it's 0157 is certainly a strong
> indicator that there's a cow connection. If that looks bad on the meat
> industry, tough.


I had not heard that the infection was this particular variety of e.coli.


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Default organic spinach at center of outbreak

Scented Nectar wrote:
> Dutch wrote:
> > "Scented Nectar" > wrote
> > > It will probably turn out to have been an unhygienic contamination by
> > > infected cow manure used as a fertilizer.

> >
> > Never miss an opportunity to cast blame on the meat industry, let others
> > worry about messy details like proof.

>
> E.coli 0157 is found almost exclusively in farmed cows. It's obvious
> that it had to get to the spinach by some means of contamination. If
> not absolute proof, the finding that it's 0157 is certainly a strong
> indicator that there's a cow connection. If that looks bad on the meat
> industry, tough.


There was recently a non-0157 E.coli on lettuce in Texas. From what
I've read, they haven't stated what the source of the contamination
was. You might want to research it, maybe it had no animal origins,
and therefore won't give meat a bad name like the 0157 ones do.

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Default organic spinach at center of outbreak


Dutch wrote:
> "Scented Nectar" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > Dutch wrote:
> >> "Scented Nectar" > wrote
> >> > It will probably turn out to have been an unhygienic contamination by
> >> > infected cow manure used as a fertilizer.
> >>
> >> Never miss an opportunity to cast blame on the meat industry, let others
> >> worry about messy details like proof.

> >
> > E.coli 0157 is found almost exclusively in farmed cows. It's obvious
> > that it had to get to the spinach by some means of contamination. If
> > not absolute proof, the finding that it's 0157 is certainly a strong
> > indicator that there's a cow connection. If that looks bad on the meat
> > industry, tough.

>
> I had not heard that the infection was this particular variety of e.coli.


According to ProMed:


E. COLI O157, SPINACH - USA (MULTISTATE):ALERT
************************************************
A ProMED-mail post
<http://www.promedmail.org>
ProMED-mail is a program of the
International Society for Infectious Diseases
<http://www.isid.org>

[1]
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006
From: ProMED-mail >
Source: New York Times [edited]
<http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/15/us/15spinach.html?ex=1158984000&en=547686c1bb34d27d&e i=5070&emc=eta1>


Consumers should avoid eating fresh bagged spinach after an outbreak
of _E. coli_ in 8 states killed 1 person and sickened at least 49,
federal health officials announced Thu night, 14 Sep 2006. The
outbreak involves a virulent strain of _E. coli_ known as O157:H7,
which produces a toxin that can lead to bloody diarrhea, kidney
failure and, in rare cases, death.

State and federal health officials have used genetic screening tools
to confirm that all 50 people sickened by the disease suffered from
the same bacteria, said Dr. David Acheson of the Center for Food
Safety and Applied Nutrition at the FDA. But health officials still
have no idea which food manufacturer may be to blame. The 1st case
was reported on 23 Aug 2006 and the most recent on 3 Sep, Dr. Acheson
said. "It's increasing by the day," Dr. Acheson said. "We may be at
the peak, we may not. We're giving preliminary data here."

Dr. Acheson said the FDA became aware of a possible outbreak on Wed,
13 Sep 2006. But delays are common as information is gathered and
compared, he said. "It takes quite some time for someone to be
exposed, get sick, get sick enough to see the doctor, have it
examined, have a sample sent to a lab, have it confirmed positive and
have it be put in the public health system," Dr. Acheson said.

Dr. Acheson described the outbreak as "significant." It is broadly
distributed across the country. Twenty cases -- including the only
confirmed death -- occurred in Wisconsin. There were 11 cases in
Utah, 5 in Oregon, 4 in Indiana, 3 each in Idaho and Michigan, 2 in
New Mexico and 1 in Connecticut, he said. Most of those affected have
been women. Although this strain of _E. coli_ commonly affects
children, many patients have been older than 20, Dr. Acheson said.

Health officials are by no means certain that bagged spinach is the
culprit. When patients have a confirmed case of the disease, health
officials ask the victims many questions about what they ate over the
previous weeks. Bagged fresh spinach is the only food that patients
so far have had in common, Dr. Acheson said. Asked if consumers
should also avoid bagged salads, Dr. Acheson answered somewhat
tentatively, saying, "At this point, there is nothing to implicate
bagged salad."

The CDC estimates that the O157:H7 strain causes 73 000 infections
and 61 deaths a year in the USA. The bacteria can live in cows'
intestines without making the animals sick, and most infections in
people come from eating undercooked hamburgers (cooking to at least
160 degrees Fahrenheit destroys the bacteria and the toxin they
produce). In 2002, 19 million pounds of raw beef were recalled
because of O157:H7 contamination.

In a notorious outbreak in 1993, 4 children died from the infection
after eating contaminated Jack in the Box hamburgers. Raw milk and
unpasteurized cheese can also spread the bacteria. Outbreaks have
been linked to petting zoos where children touched farm animals that
carried the bacteria.

Produce can also become contaminated by animal wastes or unsanitary
water, and outbreaks have been caused by sprouts, lettuce, and
unpasteurized fruit juice or cider. In 1996, 1 child died and 66
others became ill after drinking unpasteurized Odwalla apple juice.

Thorough washing should make it safe to eat most produce raw, except
for alfalfa sprouts.

But Dr. Acheson advised consumers to avoid bagged spinach altogether,
although he noted that thorough cooking killed the bacteria.

[Byline: Gardiner Harris]

--
ProMED-mail
>

[The investigation will continue to better elucidate the source of
this outbreak. It is likely that the reason that the cases have been
in adult women relates to the fact that, whatever the vehicle is, it
is ingested more by this cohort than by children. Spinach would fit
that profile. ProMED thanks Brent Barrett & Carla Rosenfield for
submitting similar reports. - Mod.LL/JW]

******
[2]
Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2006
From: ProMED-mail >
Source: FDA.gov [edited]
<http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2006/NEW01450.html>


The FDA is issuing an alert to consumers about an outbreak of _E.
coli_ O157:H7 in multiple states that may be associated with the
consumption of produce. To date, preliminary epidemiological evidence
suggests that bagged fresh spinach may be a possible cause of this
outbreak.

Based on the current information, FDA advises that consumers not eat
bagged fresh spinach at this time. Individuals who believe they may
have experienced symptoms of illness after consuming bagged spinach
are urged to contact their health care provider.

"Given the severity of this illness and the seriousness of the
outbreak, FDA believes that a warning to consumers is needed. We are
working closely with the CDC and state and local agencies to
determine the cause and scope of the problem," said Dr. Robert
Brackett, Director of FDA's Center for Food Safety and Applied
Nutrition (CFSAN).

_E. coli_ O157:H7 causes diarrhea, often with bloody stools. Although
most healthy adults can recover completely within a week, some people
can develop a form of kidney failure called Hemolytic Uremic Syndrome
(HUS). HUS is most likely to occur in young children and the elderly.
The condition can lead to serious kidney damage and even death.

To date, 50 cases of illness have been reported to the CDC, including
8 cases of HUS and 1 death. At this time, the investigation is
ongoing and states that have reported illnesses to date include:
Connecticut, Idaho, Indiana, Michigan, New Mexico, Oregon, Utah and
Wisconsin.

FDA will keep consumers informed of the investigation as more
information becomes available.

--
ProMED-mail
>

[see also:
E. coli VTEC non-O157, lettuce - USA (UT) 20060904.2521
2003
----
E. coli O157, salad - USA (CA) (02) 20031010.2552
E. coli O157, salad - USA (CA) 20031009.2542
2002
----
E. coli O157, lettuce: alert (03) 20020803.4934
E. coli O157, lettuce - USA: alert 20020730.4893]
............................mpp/lm/ll/pg/jw



E. COLI O157, SPINACH - USA (MULTISTATE)(02)
********************************************
A ProMED-mail post
<http://www.promedmail.org>
ProMED-mail is a program of the
International Society for Infectious Diseases
<http://www.isid.org>

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006
From: ProMED-mail >
Source: New York Newsday [edited]
<http://www.newsday.com/news/politics/wire/sns-ap-tainted-spinach,0,1050220.story?coll=sns-ap-world-headlines>


Federal health officials worked Fri, 15 Sep 2006, to find the source
of a multistate _E. coli_ outbreak and warned consumers that even
washing the suspect spinach won't kill the sometimes-deadly bacteria.
One person died and dozens of others were sickened in the 10-state
outbreak, linked by Food and Drug Administration officials to bagged
spinach.

The FDA warned people not to eat bagged spinach and said washing it
wouldn't solve the problem because the bacteria are too tightly
attached. "If you wash it, it is not going to get rid of it," said
Robert Brackett, director of the FDA's Center for Food Safety and
Nutrition.

The original outbreak was reported Thu,14 Sep 2006, in 8 states.
Today, Ohio and Kentucky brought the tally to 10, as additional
reports trickled in to state and federal health officials. Ohio
health officials reported 7 cases, while Kentucky officials knew of a
single case involving a 17-year-old girl being treated in neighboring
Tennessee.

Meanwhile, supermarkets around the country began pulling packaged
spinach from store shelves. "We pulled everything that we have
spinach in," said Dan Brettelle, manager of a Piggly Wiggly store in
Columbia, SC.

Officials believes the spinach may have been grown in California, and
federal and state health officials were there trying to pinpoint the
source of the contamination. Ten states were reporting a total of at
least 58 cases of _E. coli_, according to the latest tally Friday.

The death occurred in Wisconsin, where 20 people were reported ill,
11 of them in Milwaukee. The outbreak has sickened others -- 10 of
them seriously -- in Connecticut, Idaho, Indiana, Kentucky, Michigan,
New Mexico, Ohio, Oregon and Utah. In California and Washington,
health officials were investigating a single case in each of those 2
states.

[Byline: Andrew Bridges]

--
ProMED-mail
>

[see also:
E. coli O157, spinach - USA (multistate): alert 20060915.2608
E. coli VTEC non-O157, lettuce - USA (UT) 20060904.2521
2003
----
E. coli O157, salad - USA (CA) (02) 20031010.2552
E. coli O157, salad - USA (CA) 20031009.2542
2002
----
E. coli O157, lettuce: alert (03) 20020803.4934
E. coli O157, lettuce - USA: alert 20020730.4893]
..........................ll/pg/jw


*################################################# #########*
************************************************** **********
ProMED-mail makes every effort to verify the reports that
are posted, but the accuracy and completeness of the
information, and of any statements or opinions based
thereon, are not guaranteed. The reader assumes all risks in
using information posted or archived by ProMED-mail. ISID
and its associated service providers shall not be held
responsible for errors or omissions or held liable for any
damages incurred as a result of use or reliance upon posted
or archived material.
************************************************** **********
Become a ProMED-mail Premium Subscriber at
<http://www.isid.org/ProMEDMail_Premium.shtml>
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Default organic spinach at center of outbreak

"chico chupacabra" > wrote in message ...

> Organic doesn't mean "healthier," "more nutritious,"


'Mineral content: This may be the most important nutritional difference
between organic and regular produce since heavy use of fertilizer inhibits
absorption of some minerals, which are likely to be at lower levels to
begin with in soils that have been abused. This may be caused in part
by the lack of beneficial mycorrhizae fungi on the roots since high levels
of fertilizer tend to kill them. Standard diets tend to be low in various
minerals, resulting in a variety of problems including osteoporosis.
http://math.ucsd.edu/~ebender/Health...s/organic.html

'The emphasis of organic agriculture on feeding soils is the primary
step in achieving products of high nutritional content. An
understanding of nutritional balance, physical and biophysical soil
composition underpins a successful organic farming system. '
http://www.rirdc.gov.au/pub/org5yr3.htm

'More research confirms organic food is better for you
RESEARCH PAPER: ARCHIVED

The Soil Association Organic Farming, Food Quality and Human
Health report showed that the nutritional content of organic was
higher than non-organic foods. New US research shows by how
much.

"While my review looked at the entire picture of nutritional food
quality" says Shane Heaton, author of the Soil Association food
quality report, "this research, by nutritionist Virginia Worthington,
has looked specifically at the comparative vitamin and mineral
contents, reviewing a similar collection of scientific studies.

"Her research confirms our findings that, on average, organic
produce contains significantly higher levels of vitamin C, iron,
magnesium and phosphorus, and how seemingly small
differences in nutrients can mean the difference between getting
the recommended daily allowance - or failing to."

All 21 minerals compared were higher in organic produce.
...'
http://www.soilassociation.org/sa/sa...s10122001.html

'According to the USDA, the calcium content of an apple has
declined from 13.5 mg in 1914 to 7 mg in 1992. The iron content
has declined from 4.6 mg in 1914 to 0.18 mg in 1992.
...
A study published in the Journal of Applied Nutrition, Vol. 45, #1,
1993 compared the nutrient content of supermarket food versus
organically grown food from food stores in the Chicago area. The
organic produce averaged twice the mineral content of the
supermarket food.
http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/or...griculture.htm

'Organic oats have much higher levels of essential nutrients than conventional
...
As the chart below shows, preliminary nutritional analysis of oat
plants from The Rodale Institute's Farming Systems Trial found
that the organic plants had increases of up to 74 percent in nutrient
content over conventionally grown plants, suggesting an answer to
the perennial question, "Is organic better?"
http://www.newfarm.org/columns/jeff_moyer/1003.shtml

'chemical isolation combined with nuclear magnetic resonance
(NMR) spectroscopy revealed that the organically-grown oranges
contained 30% more vitamin C than the conventionally-grown fruits
- even though they were only about half the size. '
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0603071017.htm

'While similar controlled studies in humans are difficult, clinical
experience and recorded observations have suggested similar
benefits in human reproductive health (Foresight), recovery from
illness (Plaskett 1999) and general health (Daldy 1940) from
the consumption of organically produced food.
...
http://www.organic.aber.ac.uk/librar...520quality.pdf

'Organic food IS more nutritious, especially if fresh, and eating
it is vital to good health; let those who claim otherwise try to
prove their case! I still see articles in reputable magazines stating
that there is no nutritional difference between organic produce
and regular supermarket food. I've even repeatedly received this
erroneous information from Agricultural Extension offices and
Professors of Agriculture at "reputable" State Universities...
although one Professor, probably safely tenured, told me in
hushed tones that "of course, most of our funding comes from
chemical companies."
http://www.living-foods.com/articles...utritious.html

> or "safer."
>
> The
> latest food-borne scare involves organic produce -- just as the Odwalla
> incident several years ago did.


'The outbreak involves a virulent strain of E. coli known as 0157:H7,
which produces a toxin that can lead to bloody diarrhea, kidney
failure and, in rare cases, death.

State and federal health officials have used genetic screening tools to
confirm that all 50 people sickened by the disease suffered from the
same bacteria, said Dr. David Acheson of the Center for Food Safety
and Applied Nutrition at the F.D.A.
....
E. coli 0157:H7 is a dangerous strain of a type of bacteria that live in
the intestines of humans and other animals. There are hundreds of
E. coli strains, most of them harmless, but 0157:H7 makes a toxin that
can cause severe illness - bloody diarrhea, anemia and, in 2 percent
to 7 percent of cases, kidney failure. Children under 5 and the elderly
are the most likely to become gravely ill.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that the
0157:H7 strain causes 73,000 infections and 61 deaths a year in the
United States.

The bacteria can live in cows' intestines without making the animals
sick, and most infections in people come from eating undercooked
hamburgers (cooking to at least 160 degrees Fahrenheit destroys the
bacteria and the toxin they produce). In 2002, 19 million pounds of
raw beef were recalled because of 0157:H7 contamination.

In a notorious outbreak in 1993, four children died from the infection
after eating contaminated Jack in the Box hamburgers. Raw milk and
unpasteurized cheese can also spread the bacteria. Outbreaks have
been linked to petting zoos where children touched farm animals that
carried the bacteria.

Produce can also become contaminated by animal wastes or
unsanitary water, and outbreaks have been caused by sprouts, lettuce
and unpasteurized fruit juice or cider. In 1996, one child died and
66 others became ill after drinking unpasteurized Odwalla apple juice.
Thorough washing should make it safe to eat most produce raw,
except for alfalfa sprouts.
...
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/15/us...=5070&emc=eta1

> Organic only means free of SYNTHETIC
> pesticides. In the US, there is no oversight of how much pesticide is
> used on organic crops, nor is there testing for any residue on organic
> produce (conventional foods, though, play by a tougher set of
> safety rules).


'Why are organic pesticides preferred by some gardeners?
They breakdown rapidly in the environment after application,
they act to prevent further insect feeding and many have a
low toxicity to people and animals.'
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/new...0/aug0007.html

'Why are there pesticide residues at all on organic produce? Some
of it is due to factors beyond the control of the organic farmer, such
as pesticide drift from adjacent fields or contamination of soil or
irrigation water. For example, when the researchers excluded residues
of persistent, long-banned organochlorine insecticides such as DDT
from their analysis of the USDA data, the fraction of organic samples
with residues dropped from 23% to 13%. Mislabeling and occasional
fraud could also explain why some organic samples tested positive
for residues.'
http://www.cce.cornell.edu/food/fsar...pesticide.html

> ===============
> WASHINGTON - A California natural-foods company was linked Friday to a
> nationwide E. coli outbreak involving packaged spinach that has killed
> one person and sickened nearly 100 others. Supermarkets across the
> country pulled spinach from shelves, and consumers tossed out the leafy
> green.
>
> Food and Drug Administration (FDA) officials said they had received
> reports of illness in 19 states...
>
> The outbreak was traced to Natural Selection Foods, based in San Juan
> Bautista, Calif., and the company has voluntarily recalled products
> containing spinach. The company, which bills itself as the largest
> grower and shipper of organic produce in North America, also operates
> under the name Earthbound Farm and packages spinach for more than 30
> companies.
>
> FDA officials stressed that the bacteria had not been isolated in
> products sold by Natural Selection Foods but that the link was
> established by patient accounts of what they had eaten before becoming
> ill...
> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...spinach16.html



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Default organic spinach at center of outbreak

Perchlorate site immediately up the San Benito River wash from Natural
Selections spinach:

http://www.regenesis.com/library/Cas...er.CA.Case.pdf

Don't trust the CDC/feds to test for perchlorate, as their boss Mike
Leavitt is from the sole perchlorate-manufacturing town in the US,
Cedar City UT.

LLL

http://www.perchlorate.org



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Default organic spinach at center of outbreak


"Scented Nectar" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Scented Nectar wrote:
>> Dutch wrote:
>> > "Scented Nectar" > wrote
>> > > It will probably turn out to have been an unhygienic contamination by
>> > > infected cow manure used as a fertilizer.
>> >
>> > Never miss an opportunity to cast blame on the meat industry, let
>> > others
>> > worry about messy details like proof.

>>
>> E.coli 0157 is found almost exclusively in farmed cows. It's obvious
>> that it had to get to the spinach by some means of contamination. If
>> not absolute proof, the finding that it's 0157 is certainly a strong
>> indicator that there's a cow connection. If that looks bad on the meat
>> industry, tough.

>
> There was recently a non-0157 E.coli on lettuce in Texas. From what
> I've read, they haven't stated what the source of the contamination
> was. You might want to research it, maybe it had no animal origins,


A very common source of e-coli contamination is human waste, and there was
apparently a sewage treatment plant in connection to the recent outbreak in
spinach. So much for your eagerness to rush to judgment.

> and therefore won't give meat a bad name like the 0157 ones do.


It doesn't give meat a bad name any more than human excrement contamination
gives humans a bad name, it gives a bad name to those charged with the
protection of Health and Safety. Again in typical fundy fashion you show
that you are quick to assign blame to prop up your agenda of demonization.


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Default organic spinach at center of outbreak


"Scented Nectar" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Dutch wrote:
>> "Scented Nectar" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> >
>> > Dutch wrote:
>> >> "Scented Nectar" > wrote
>> >> > It will probably turn out to have been an unhygienic contamination
>> >> > by
>> >> > infected cow manure used as a fertilizer.
>> >>
>> >> Never miss an opportunity to cast blame on the meat industry, let
>> >> others
>> >> worry about messy details like proof.
>> >
>> > E.coli 0157 is found almost exclusively in farmed cows. It's obvious
>> > that it had to get to the spinach by some means of contamination. If
>> > not absolute proof, the finding that it's 0157 is certainly a strong
>> > indicator that there's a cow connection. If that looks bad on the meat
>> > industry, tough.

>>
>> I had not heard that the infection was this particular variety of e.coli.

>
> According to ProMed:
>
>
> E. COLI O157, SPINACH - USA (MULTISTATE):ALERT
> ************************************************


It looks worse on the spinach industry than it does on the meat industry.



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Default organic spinach at center of outbreak

Dutch wrote:
> "Scented Nectar" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Scented Nectar wrote:
> >> Dutch wrote:
> >> > "Scented Nectar" > wrote
> >> > > It will probably turn out to have been an unhygienic contamination by
> >> > > infected cow manure used as a fertilizer.
> >> >
> >> > Never miss an opportunity to cast blame on the meat industry, let
> >> > others
> >> > worry about messy details like proof.
> >>
> >> E.coli 0157 is found almost exclusively in farmed cows. It's obvious
> >> that it had to get to the spinach by some means of contamination. If
> >> not absolute proof, the finding that it's 0157 is certainly a strong
> >> indicator that there's a cow connection. If that looks bad on the meat
> >> industry, tough.

> >
> > There was recently a non-0157 E.coli on lettuce in Texas. From what
> > I've read, they haven't stated what the source of the contamination
> > was. You might want to research it, maybe it had no animal origins,

>
> A very common source of e-coli contamination is human waste, and there was
> apparently a sewage treatment plant in connection to the recent outbreak in
> spinach. So much for your eagerness to rush to judgment.
>
> > and therefore won't give meat a bad name like the 0157 ones do.

>
> It doesn't give meat a bad name any more than human excrement contamination
> gives humans a bad name, it gives a bad name to those charged with the
> protection of Health and Safety. Again in typical fundy fashion you show
> that you are quick to assign blame to prop up your agenda of demonization.


Tell it to Cheeko. He started the demonization game. The
contamination of human waste with 0157 starts with an infected human,
or possibly the wash up water from someone's meat preparation going
down the drain. 0157 is not one of the E.coli types that harmlessly
lives in humans as it does cows.

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Scented Nectar wrote:
> Tell it to Cheeko. He started the demonization game. The
> contamination of human waste with 0157 starts with an infected human,
> or possibly the wash up water from someone's meat preparation going
> down the drain. 0157 is not one of the E.coli types that harmlessly
> lives in humans as it does cows.


A correction is needed here. Where I refer to 0157, I mean O157:H7
more specifically.

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Scented Nectar wrote:

>
> Dutch wrote:
> > "Scented Nectar" > wrote
> > > It will probably turn out to have been an unhygienic contamination
> > > by infected cow manure used as a fertilizer.

> >
> > Never miss an opportunity to cast blame on the meat industry, let
> > others worry about messy details like proof.

>
> E.coli 0157 is found almost exclusively in farmed cows.


Infections, though, have been linked to everything from produce to
petting zoos.

> It's obvious
> that it had to get to the spinach by some means of contamination.


Or fertilization. Don't forget how dependent monocultured crops are on
inputs like manure, bonemeal, bloodmeal, fish emulsion, and so on. Your
vegetarian diet is NOT free of animal inputs.

> If
> not absolute proof, the finding that it's 0157 is certainly a strong
> indicator that there's a cow connection. If that looks bad on the
> meat industry, tough.


No, it looks bad on the organic industry. They've had a free ride with
exemptions from safety testing and from truth in labeling. You can't pin
the use of manure on organic crops on the "meat industry" -- what else
can organic farmers use on their monocultured crops?
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Scented Nectar wrote:

> Scented Nectar wrote:
> > Dutch wrote:
> > > "Scented Nectar" > wrote
> > > > It will probably turn out to have been an unhygienic
> > > > contamination by infected cow manure used as a fertilizer.
> > >
> > > Never miss an opportunity to cast blame on the meat industry, let
> > > others worry about messy details like proof.

> >
> > E.coli 0157 is found almost exclusively in farmed cows. It's
> > obvious that it had to get to the spinach by some means of
> > contamination. If not absolute proof, the finding that it's 0157 is
> > certainly a strong indicator that there's a cow connection. If that
> > looks bad on the meat industry, tough.

>
> There was recently a non-0157 E.coli on lettuce in Texas.


Not quite accurate. There may have been illnesses in Texas, but we don't
have much of a lettuce crop due to the heat.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...n/4179182.html

> From what
> I've read, they haven't stated what the source of the contamination
> was. You might want to research it, maybe it had no animal origins,
> and therefore won't give meat a bad name like the 0157 ones do.


It's your mindless preference for organic that's to blame. "Natural"
fertilizers carry risks. Synthetic ones don't.
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pearl wrote:

> "chico chupacabra" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Organic doesn't mean "healthier," "more nutritious,"

>
> 'Mineral content:


Is there any evidence for greater nutritional value of organic foods
compared to conventional foods?

Although several reviews have indicated some consistent differences in
favour of organic versus conventional produce, this is difficult to
interpret because some of these studies may not have been conducted in a
truly scientific manner. Even so, the best of these studies show
consistency in higher vitamin C, (and perhaps iron and magnesium), in
organic food and consistently less unwanted and potentially toxic
nitrates. A simple reason has been postulated for some of the
differences observed, particularly for minerals ? organic produce may
have lower water content, so minerals (and some other nutrients) may be
more concentrated in organic than conventional produce.

In recent years this analysis has been extended to include other food
components such as antioxidants ? potentially important substances in
human nutrition ? in addition to vitamins and minerals. Levels of
antioxidants and some other ?health-related food components have
generally been reported to be higher in organic foods. This may be
because these natural chemicals are produced to protect the plant
against insect pests, and organic crops have less pesticide protection.
Another theory is that the faster growth in artificially fertilised
crops causes the plant to concentrate resources for growth rather than
production of these antioxidants.

In any case, more sophisticated analyses of the nutritional quality of
conventional versus organic foods is required ? in animal foods as well
as plant foods ? before a more definitive answer is available.

While the emerging information so far does suggest higher levels of some
nutritional components in organic food, the other question is: ?does
this have advantages for human health?? Many nutritionists say that a
well-formulated diet, organic or not, is all that is required for
sufficient intake of health-giving nutrients. Supporters of organic food
argue that with consistent consumption, even small advantages could be
significant over time. This can only be answered by appropriately
controlled scientific studies in human populations. This would be
difficult to accomplish.

> > or "safer."
> >
> > The
> > latest food-borne scare involves organic produce -- just as the
> > Odwalla incident several years ago did.

>
> 'The outbreak involves a virulent strain of E. coli known as 0157:H7,
> which produces a toxin that can lead to bloody diarrhea, kidney
> failure and, in rare cases, death.


Yes, and that's why organic produce should be tested for safety reasons.
Instead, the organic industry have hired high-powered lobbyists to
protect them from testing (conventional foods must undergo safety
tests) and to exempt them from truth-in-labeling laws.

> > Organic only means free of SYNTHETIC
> > pesticides. In the US, there is no oversight of how much pesticide
> > is used on organic crops, nor is there testing for any residue on
> > organic produce (conventional foods, though, play by a tougher set
> > of safety rules).

>
> 'Why are organic pesticides preferred by some gardeners?


Because of ignorance about the differences between organic and
conventional.

> 'Why are there pesticide residues at all on organic produce?


1. Because organic doesn't mean "pesticide-free" -- it only means free
of SYNTHETIC pesticides and fertilizers.
2. Because unscrupulous farmers often lie to get premium prices for
"organic" produce (just like horsetraders who tell buyers that the
horses have been recently ridden).
a. organic certification isn't based on actual product testing.
b. it's a farmer's word against anyone else's because of (a).

> > ===============
> > WASHINGTON - A California natural-foods company was linked Friday to
> > a nationwide E. coli outbreak involving packaged spinach that has
> > killed one person and sickened nearly 100 others. Supermarkets
> > across the country pulled spinach from shelves, and consumers tossed
> > out the leafy green.
> >
> > Food and Drug Administration (FDA) officials said they had received
> > reports of illness in 19 states...
> >
> > The outbreak was traced to Natural Selection Foods, based in San
> > Juan Bautista, Calif., and the company has voluntarily recalled
> > products containing spinach. The company, which bills itself as the
> > largest grower and shipper of organic produce in North America, also
> > operates under the name Earthbound Farm and packages spinach for
> > more than 30 companies.
> >
> > FDA officials stressed that the bacteria had not been isolated in
> > products sold by Natural Selection Foods but that the link was
> > established by patient accounts of what they had eaten before
> > becoming ill...
> > http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...spinach16.html

>
>

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Default organic spinach at center of outbreak


chico chupacabra wrote:
> > There was recently a non-0157 E.coli on lettuce in Texas.

>
> Not quite accurate. There may have been illnesses in Texas, but we don't
> have much of a lettuce crop due to the heat.


My mistake, the recent outbreak was in Utah, and the report made
reference to a 1999 Texas incident. Here's the promed release on it:

E. COLI VTEC NON-O157, LETTUCE - USA (UTAH)(02):BACKGROUND
************************************************** **
A ProMED-mail post
<http://www.promedmail.org>
ProMED-mail is a program of the
International Society for Infectious Diseases
<http://www.isid.org>

[1]
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006
From: Steve Berger >
Source: GideonOnline [edited]
<http://www.GideonOnline.com>


Regarding the recent outbreak of non-O157 VTEC _E. coli_ infection
from lettuce, the following data on outbreaks of _E. coli_ non-O157
infection are abstracted from Gideon [primary references available on
request]:

1975 - An outbreak (2200 or more cases) of _E. coli_ O6:K15:H16
infection at Crater Lake National Park was attributed to contaminated
drinking water.

1983 - Outbreaks of gastrointestinal illness associated with eating
imported French Brie cheese occurred in the District of Columbia,
with subsequent cases in Colorado, Georgia, Illinois, and Wisconsin.
The responsible organism in this case was a strain of _E. coli_
serotype O27:H20 which produced a heat-stable toxin.

1998 - An outbreak (3300 estimated cases) of _E. coli_ O6:H16
infection was caused by delicatessen foods supplied by a caterer.

1999 - An outbreak (11 cases, 3 HUS) of _E. coli_ O121 infection was
associated with a lake in Connecticut.

1999 - An outbreak (58 cases; 2 HUS) of _E. coli_ O111:H8 infection
at a cheerleading camp in Texas was ascribed to contaminated ice and
salads. This is the first reported community outbreak attributable
to this strain for the USA.

2004 - An outbreak (111 cases) of ETEC infection caused by 3
serotypes of _E. coli_ was reported among employees of a company in
Illinois.

2006 (publication year) - An outbreak (36 cases) of E. coli O169:H41
infection among employees of a company was ascribed to contaminated
cole slaw.

--
Dr. Steve Berger
>

[Not all these outbreaks are VTEC strains. ProMED thanks Dr. Berger
for his continued contributions. - Mod.LL]

******
[2]
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2006
From: Karl Bettelheim >


I would like to draw your attention to the table I have put together,
which lists the sources of nearly 4000 reported non-O157 VTEC from
around the world including 10 of O121:H19, which were reported from
USA, Canada, Hong Kong, Denmark, Germany and Japan:
<http://www.microbionet.com.au/vtectable.htm>

--
Dr. Karl A. Bettelheim
>

[ProMED thanks Dr. Karl Bettelheim for his contribution. - Mod.LL]

[see also:
E. coli VTEC non-O157, lettuce - USA (UT) 20060904.2521
E. coli VTEC non-O157 - Norway (03) 20060416.1133
E. coli VTEC non-O157 - Norway 20060329.0947
E. coli VTEC non-O157, minced beef - Norway 20060304.0680
2003
----
E. coli, VTEC non-O157 - UK (Scotland): correction 20030828.2166
E. coli, VTEC non-O157 - UK (Scotland) 20030825.2144
2002
----
E. coli O157, sorbitol fermenting - UK (Scotland) 20021101.5685
2001
----
E. coli O26 - South Korea 20010509.0896
1999
----
E. coli O111, diarrhea - USA (Texas) 19990707.1134
1997
----
E. coli, non-0157 - Belgium 19970610.1215]
................................ll/pg/lm

*################################################# #########*
************************************************** **********
ProMED-mail makes every effort to verify the reports that
are posted, but the accuracy and completeness of the
information, and of any statements or opinions based
thereon, are not guaranteed. The reader assumes all risks in
using information posted or archived by ProMED-mail. ISID
and its associated service providers shall not be held
responsible for errors or omissions or held liable for any
damages incurred as a result of use or reliance upon posted
or archived material.
************************************************** **********
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<http://www.isid.org/ProMEDMail_Premium.shtml>
************************************************** **********
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Send all items for posting to:
(NOT to an individual moderator). If you do not give your
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> It's your mindless preference for organic that's to blame. "Natural"
> fertilizers carry risks. Synthetic ones don't.


Organic is usually more nutritious, and in some ways more
environmentally friendly, if care is taken to avoid products that are
harmful even though organic. But organic doesn't matter in this case,
as both organic and conventional ways use (possibly contaminated)
irrigation water, and cow manure as fertilizer. All produce need
thorough washing, although that only won't guarantee anything, just
lowers the risks.

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Default organic spinach at center of outbreak

Scented Nectar wrote:

> Dutch wrote:
> > "Scented Nectar" > wrote in message
> > ups.com...
> > > Scented Nectar wrote:
> > >> Dutch wrote:
> > >> > "Scented Nectar" > wrote
> > >> > > It will probably turn out to have been an unhygienic
> > >contamination by > > > infected cow manure used as a fertilizer.
> > >> >
> > >> > Never miss an opportunity to cast blame on the meat industry,
> > >let > > others
> > >> > worry about messy details like proof.
> > >>
> > >> E.coli 0157 is found almost exclusively in farmed cows. It's
> > >obvious > that it had to get to the spinach by some means of
> > >contamination. If > not absolute proof, the finding that it's 0157
> > >is certainly a strong > indicator that there's a cow connection.
> > >If that looks bad on the meat > industry, tough.
> > >
> > > There was recently a non-0157 E.coli on lettuce in Texas. From
> > > what I've read, they haven't stated what the source of the
> > > contamination was. You might want to research it, maybe it had no
> > > animal origins,

> >
> > A very common source of e-coli contamination is human waste, and
> > there was apparently a sewage treatment plant in connection to the
> > recent outbreak in spinach. So much for your eagerness to rush to
> > judgment.
> >
> > > and therefore won't give meat a bad name like the 0157 ones do.

> >
> > It doesn't give meat a bad name any more than human excrement
> > contamination gives humans a bad name, it gives a bad name to those
> > charged with the protection of Health and Safety. Again in typical
> > fundy fashion you show that you are quick to assign blame to prop up
> > your agenda of demonization.

>
> Tell it to chico. He started the demonization game.


No, you thin-skinned slut, I pointed out two things:
1. This involves organic produce, and
2. Organic produce plays by a different set of rules.

With respect to the second point, organic produce isn't tested, nor are
its inputs -- like manure used for fertilizer -- because of the mistaken
belief that "organic = better."

> The
> contamination of human waste with 0157 starts with an infected human,
> or possibly the wash up water from someone's meat preparation going
> down the drain. 0157 is not one of the E.coli types that harmlessly
> lives in humans as it does cows.


Or on organic produce, which is why it should be tested like any other
food.


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cheeko wrote:
> Scented Nectar wrote:
>
> >
> > Dutch wrote:
> > > "Scented Nectar" > wrote
> > > > It will probably turn out to have been an unhygienic contamination
> > > > by infected cow manure used as a fertilizer.
> > >
> > > Never miss an opportunity to cast blame on the meat industry, let
> > > others worry about messy details like proof.

> >
> > E.coli 0157 is found almost exclusively in farmed cows.

>
> Infections, though, have been linked to everything from produce to
> petting zoos.


Yeah, what's your point? It's a hygiene problem in every instance. I
don't really care about the fact that it originates in cows as opposed
to originating in the produce it ends up on, that's not the issue.
Hygiene and contamination prevention are the issues. E.coli affects
both vegetarians and meat-eaters. Both would benefit from better food
hygiene.

> > It's obvious
> > that it had to get to the spinach by some means of contamination.

>
> Or fertilization. Don't forget how dependent monocultured crops are on
> inputs like manure, bonemeal, bloodmeal, fish emulsion, and so on. Your
> vegetarian diet is NOT free of animal inputs.


As someone with a botany hobby, I know full well that good organic soil
often has animal matter. I'm not claiming otherwise.

> > If
> > not absolute proof, the finding that it's 0157 is certainly a strong
> > indicator that there's a cow connection. If that looks bad on the
> > meat industry, tough.

>
> No, it looks bad on the organic industry. They've had a free ride with
> exemptions from safety testing and from truth in labeling. You can't pin
> the use of manure on organic crops on the "meat industry" -- what else
> can organic farmers use on their monocultured crops?


There are better hygiene practices that could be followed, but
producers would probably find it too expensive. Monitoring of
irrigation water, ensuring manured soil base has a non-manured covering
of a couple inches, things like that would help.

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chico chupacabra wrote:

> No, it looks bad on the organic industry. They've had a free ride with
> exemptions from safety testing and from truth in labeling.


The organic industry should have no special exemptions. However, if
organics have to label their agricultural chemicals, so should
conventional producers.

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chico and the goat wrote:
> Scented Nectar wrote:
>
> > Dutch wrote:
> > > "Scented Nectar" > wrote in message
> > > ups.com...
> > > > Scented Nectar wrote:
> > > >> Dutch wrote:
> > > >> > "Scented Nectar" > wrote
> > > >> > > It will probably turn out to have been an unhygienic
> > > >contamination by > > > infected cow manure used as a fertilizer.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Never miss an opportunity to cast blame on the meat industry,
> > > >let > > others
> > > >> > worry about messy details like proof.
> > > >>
> > > >> E.coli 0157 is found almost exclusively in farmed cows. It's
> > > >obvious > that it had to get to the spinach by some means of
> > > >contamination. If > not absolute proof, the finding that it's 0157
> > > >is certainly a strong > indicator that there's a cow connection.
> > > >If that looks bad on the meat > industry, tough.
> > > >
> > > > There was recently a non-0157 E.coli on lettuce in Texas. From
> > > > what I've read, they haven't stated what the source of the
> > > > contamination was. You might want to research it, maybe it had no
> > > > animal origins,
> > >
> > > A very common source of e-coli contamination is human waste, and
> > > there was apparently a sewage treatment plant in connection to the
> > > recent outbreak in spinach. So much for your eagerness to rush to
> > > judgment.
> > >
> > > > and therefore won't give meat a bad name like the 0157 ones do.
> > >
> > > It doesn't give meat a bad name any more than human excrement
> > > contamination gives humans a bad name, it gives a bad name to those
> > > charged with the protection of Health and Safety. Again in typical
> > > fundy fashion you show that you are quick to assign blame to prop up
> > > your agenda of demonization.

> >
> > Tell it to chico. He started the demonization game.

>
> No, you thin-skinned slut, I pointed out two things:


You're not getting enough sex these days, are you. Stop fantasizing
about me being slutty.

> 1. This involves organic produce, and


I don't remember reading that they've narrowed it down to organic only.
Do you have a reference?

> 2. Organic produce plays by a different set of rules.


It shouldn't.

> With respect to the second point, organic produce isn't tested, nor are
> its inputs -- like manure used for fertilizer -- because of the mistaken
> belief that "organic = better."


Both organic and conventional use manure. Both should follow any
necessary testing.

> > The
> > contamination of human waste with 0157 starts with an infected human,
> > or possibly the wash up water from someone's meat preparation going
> > down the drain. 0157 is not one of the E.coli types that harmlessly
> > lives in humans as it does cows.

>
> Or on organic produce, which is why it should be tested like any other
> food.


What conventional growers currently test their manure? If organic
should, then conventional should too.

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Scented Nectar wrote:
> I don't remember reading that they've narrowed it down to organic only.
> Do you have a reference?


I retract that. Your original post makes that claim.

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Scented Nectar wrote:

> cheeko wrote:
> > Scented Nectar wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Dutch wrote:
> > > > "Scented Nectar" > wrote
> > > > > It will probably turn out to have been an unhygienic
> > > > > contamination by infected cow manure used as a fertilizer.
> > > >
> > > > Never miss an opportunity to cast blame on the meat industry,
> > > > let others worry about messy details like proof.
> > >
> > > E.coli 0157 is found almost exclusively in farmed cows.

> >
> > Infections, though, have been linked to everything from produce to
> > petting zoos.

>
> Yeah, what's your point? It's a hygiene problem in every instance. I
> don't really care about the fact that it originates in cows as opposed
> to originating in the produce it ends up on, that's not the issue.
> Hygiene and contamination prevention are the issues. E.coli affects
> both vegetarians and meat-eaters. Both would benefit from better food
> hygiene.


That was the whole point behind posting what I did:
Organic doesn't mean "healthier," "more nutritious," or "safer." The
latest food-borne scare involves organic produce -- just as the Odwalla
incident several years ago did. Organic only means free of SYNTHETIC
pesticides. In the US, there is no oversight of how much pesticide is
used on organic crops, nor is there testing for any residue on organic
produce (conventional foods, though, play by a tougher set of
safety rules).

> > > It's obvious
> > > that it had to get to the spinach by some means of contamination.

> >
> > Or fertilization. Don't forget how dependent monocultured crops are
> > on inputs like manure, bonemeal, bloodmeal, fish emulsion, and so
> > on. Your vegetarian diet is NOT free of animal inputs.

>
> As someone with a botany hobby


Smoking pot isn't "botany."

> I know full well that good organic
> soil often has animal matter. I'm not claiming otherwise.


Googling "scented nectar veganic..." Heh.

> > > If
> > > not absolute proof, the finding that it's 0157 is certainly a
> > > strong indicator that there's a cow connection. If that looks bad
> > > on the meat industry, tough.

> >
> > No, it looks bad on the organic industry. They've had a free ride
> > with exemptions from safety testing and from truth in labeling. You
> > can't pin the use of manure on organic crops on the "meat industry"
> > -- what else can organic farmers use on their monocultured crops?

>
> There are better hygiene practices that could be followed,


How about a little testing to see just how safe foods are?

> but producers would probably find it too expensive.


Organic producers can afford it. After all, you're paying premium prices
for their overrated products.

> Monitoring of
> irrigation water, ensuring manured soil base has a non-manured
> covering of a couple inches, things like that would help.


So would testing and product labeling that would bring organics to the
same standards in those areas as conventional produce.


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Default organic spinach at center of outbreak

Scented Nectar wrote:

> chico and the goat wrote:
> > Scented Nectar wrote:
> >
> > > Dutch wrote:
> > > > "Scented Nectar" > wrote in message
> > > > ups.com...
> > > > > Scented Nectar wrote:
> > > > >> Dutch wrote:
> > > > >> > "Scented Nectar" > wrote
> > > > >> > > It will probably turn out to have been an unhygienic
> > > > >contamination by > > > infected cow manure used as a
> > > > >fertilizer. > >
> > > > >> > Never miss an opportunity to cast blame on the meat
> > > > >industry, let > > others
> > > > >> > worry about messy details like proof.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> E.coli 0157 is found almost exclusively in farmed cows. It's
> > > > >obvious > that it had to get to the spinach by some means of
> > > > >contamination. If > not absolute proof, the finding that it's
> > > > >0157 is certainly a strong > indicator that there's a cow
> > > > >connection. If that looks bad on the meat > industry, tough.
> > > > >
> > > > > There was recently a non-0157 E.coli on lettuce in Texas.
> > > > > From what I've read, they haven't stated what the source of
> > > > > the contamination was. You might want to research it, maybe
> > > > > it had no animal origins,
> > > >
> > > > A very common source of e-coli contamination is human waste, and
> > > > there was apparently a sewage treatment plant in connection to
> > > > the recent outbreak in spinach. So much for your eagerness to
> > > > rush to judgment.
> > > >
> > > > > and therefore won't give meat a bad name like the 0157 ones
> > > > > do.
> > > >
> > > > It doesn't give meat a bad name any more than human excrement
> > > > contamination gives humans a bad name, it gives a bad name to
> > > > those charged with the protection of Health and Safety. Again in
> > > > typical fundy fashion you show that you are quick to assign
> > > > blame to prop up your agenda of demonization.
> > >
> > > Tell it to chico. He started the demonization game.

> >
> > No, you thin-skinned slut, I pointed out two things:

>
> You're not getting enough sex these days, are you. Stop fantasizing
> about me being slutty.
>
> > 1. This involves organic produce, and

>
> I don't remember reading that they've narrowed it down to organic
> only.
> Do you have a reference?


Read the article:
WASHINGTON - A California NATURAL-FOODS company was linked Friday to a
nationwide E. coli outbreak involving packaged spinach that has killed
one person and sickened nearly 100 others. Supermarkets across the
country pulled spinach from shelves, and consumers tossed out the leafy
green.

Food and Drug Administration (FDA) officials said they had received
reports of illness in 19 states...

The outbreak was traced to Natural Selection Foods, based in San Juan
Bautista, Calif., and the company has voluntarily recalled products
containing spinach. The company, which bills itself as the largest
grower and shipper of *ORGANIC PRODUCE* in North America, also operates
under the name Earthbound Farm and packages spinach for more than 30
companies.

FDA officials stressed that the bacteria had not been isolated in
products sold by Natural Selection Foods but that the link was
established by patient accounts of what they had eaten before becoming
ill...
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...spinach16.html

BTW, they might want to change the name from the Darwinian "Natural
Selection Foods" to something a little less risky-sounding.

> > 2. Organic produce plays by a different set of rules.

>
> It shouldn't.


It does. The organic industry has some very good lobbyists who've kept
them on an uneven playing field.

> > With respect to the second point, organic produce isn't tested, nor
> > are its inputs -- like manure used for fertilizer -- because of the
> > mistaken belief that "organic = better."

>
> Both organic and conventional use manure. Both should follow any
> necessary testing.


Organic is exempted because of the mistaken belief that "natural is
safer." It often isn't.

> > > The
> > > contamination of human waste with 0157 starts with an infected
> > > human, or possibly the wash up water from someone's meat
> > > preparation going down the drain. 0157 is not one of the E.coli
> > > types that harmlessly lives in humans as it does cows.

> >
> > Or on organic produce, which is why it should be tested like any
> > other food.

>
> What conventional growers currently test their manure? If organic
> should, then conventional should too.


All synthetic pesticides and fertilizers are tested and regulated and
foods grown with them are tested again for residues. Organic foods are
totally unregulated: no testing of "natural" pesticides (even though
many of them are EPA-classified as carcinogens) for safety or for
residues, no regulations about application or use, etc.
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cheeky wrote:
> Scented Nectar wrote:
> > Yeah, what's your point? It's a hygiene problem in every instance. I
> > don't really care about the fact that it originates in cows as opposed
> > to originating in the produce it ends up on, that's not the issue.
> > Hygiene and contamination prevention are the issues. E.coli affects
> > both vegetarians and meat-eaters. Both would benefit from better food
> > hygiene.

>
> That was the whole point behind posting what I did:
> Organic doesn't mean "healthier," "more nutritious," or "safer." The
> latest food-borne scare involves organic produce -- just as the Odwalla
> incident several years ago did. Organic only means free of SYNTHETIC
> pesticides. In the US, there is no oversight of how much pesticide is
> used on organic crops, nor is there testing for any residue on organic
> produce (conventional foods, though, play by a tougher set of
> safety rules).


They should both play by the same rules, except for the obvious
stricter rule that organics have to follow of only using organic
methods.

> > As someone with a botany hobby

>
> Smoking pot isn't "botany."


You never listen. Anyone who knows me online or in real life knows that
I'm very interested in fragrant and culinary plants.

> > I know full well that good organic
> > soil often has animal matter. I'm not claiming otherwise.

>
> Googling "scented nectar veganic..." Heh.


Did you not see where I wrote 'often'? Do you not agree that often
organic means they use manure? Yes there are good veganic soils out
there, but I'm sure they are infrequent.

> > There are better hygiene practices that could be followed,

>
> How about a little testing to see just how safe foods are?


Testing is one element of food hygiene.

> > Monitoring of
> > irrigation water, ensuring manured soil base has a non-manured
> > covering of a couple inches, things like that would help.

>
> So would testing and product labeling that would bring organics to the
> same standards in those areas as conventional produce.


I don't see any labels on conventional produce. If you think it's
needed for organics, then it's only logical to conclude it's needed for
conventionals too.

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Scented Nectar wrote:

<....>
> > Googling "scented nectar veganic..." Heh.

>
> Did you not see where I wrote 'often'? Do you not agree that often
> organic means they use manure? Yes there are good veganic soils out
> there


Where? "Veganic" is ****ing fantasy, not reality.

> but I'm sure they are infrequent.


Try "non-existent." Soil without input from animals is lifeless sand.

> > > There are better hygiene practices that could be followed,

> >
> > How about a little testing to see just how safe foods are?

>
> Testing is one element of food hygiene.


A very important one on which organic foods get a free pass.
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chico chupacabra added a link to a source:

<...>
> Is there any evidence for greater nutritional value of organic foods
> compared to conventional foods?
>
> Although several reviews have indicated some consistent differences in
> favour of organic versus conventional produce, this is difficult to
> interpret because some of these studies may not have been conducted in
> a truly scientific manner. Even so, the best of these studies show
> consistency in higher vitamin C, (and perhaps iron and magnesium), in
> organic food and consistently less unwanted and potentially toxic
> nitrates. A simple reason has been postulated for some of the
> differences observed, particularly for minerals ? organic produce may
> have lower water content, so minerals (and some other nutrients) may
> be more concentrated in organic than conventional produce.
>
> In recent years this analysis has been extended to include other food
> components such as antioxidants ? potentially important substances in
> human nutrition ? in addition to vitamins and minerals. Levels of
> antioxidants and some other ?health-related food components have
> generally been reported to be higher in organic foods. This may be
> because these natural chemicals are produced to protect the plant
> against insect pests, and organic crops have less pesticide
> protection. Another theory is that the faster growth in artificially
> fertilised crops causes the plant to concentrate resources for growth
> rather than production of these antioxidants.
>
> In any case, more sophisticated analyses of the nutritional quality of
> conventional versus organic foods is required ? in animal foods as
> well as plant foods ? before a more definitive answer is available.
>
> While the emerging information so far does suggest higher levels of
> some nutritional components in organic food, the other question is:
> ?does this have advantages for human health?? Many nutritionists say
> that a well-formulated diet, organic or not, is all that is required
> for sufficient intake of health-giving nutrients. Supporters of
> organic food argue that with consistent consumption, even small
> advantages could be significant over time. This can only be answered
> by appropriately controlled scientific studies in human populations.
> This would be difficult to accomplish.


Oops:
http://www.nutritionaustralia.org/Fo..._Foods_faq.asp

<...>
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"More research is needed [to see if organic claims are true]...
Nutritionally, you will be just as well off [choosing conventional
foods]."
http://tinyurl.com/r2o7b


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>
> Right now, the e coli issue is a little more important because it's
> acutely lethal for human beings, dope. Possible thyroid problems
> resulting from over-exposure of perchlorates would take a very long
> time to develop and are reversible. The effects of e coli, particularly
> among the elderly and the young and those who are immuno-compromised,
> aren't so easily reversed -- especially when they die.
>
> <...>


Actually, my argument has nothing to do with blocking iodide uptake
into the thyroid. If you take very high doses of any large, chaotropic,
anti-coagulative anion salt -- iodide itself or something like bromide
-- it looks like it interfers with the proper functioning of defensins,
the first line of defense of the immune system. Examples in the medical
literature would be of rapid infections through the skin called
iododerma and bromoderma.

Folks who took perchlorate in large doses when it was used as a
medicine to prevent thyroid storm in Graves disease patients during the
late 50s - early 60s also suffered from skin rashes and stomach aches,
just like folks who take high doses of iodide or bromide. If those
stomach aches were due to surges in the helicobacter pylori population
in the gut (Chile, where perchlorate intake in the diet is probably
highest, traditionally has also has amongst the highest stomach cancer
rates in the world) then the perchlorate was having an
immunosuppressive effect.

There is a perchlorate site (Whittaker Ordnance) next to the Hollister
municipal sewage treatment plant along the San Benito River wash that
runs through the San Juan Bautista valley where much of the spinach is
grown. This raises the question of what happens when you consume a shot
of fecal material chased by something that transiently disarms your
defensins -- probable answer: your immune system has a very bad day.

First you would have to determine if the spinach contains abnormally
high levels of perchlorate; then you would have to find slugs of
groundwater containing 100 to 10,000 ppb perchlorate in the San Benito
River wash used to irrigate spinach fields, where in turn the
perchlorate would be magnified by several orders of magnitude through
evapotranspiration in the spinach leaf. To the best of my knowledge no
perchlorate has been detected very far from the four known ClO4-
utilizing industrial sites in the area, but then again, I don't know
that anybody has looked for it. If there is a recurrent problem of
illness from spinach from this particular region, then
perchlorate-suppressed immune systems as a co-factor is something the
health authorities need to empirically rule out.

LLL
http://www.perchlorate.org

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Scented Nectar wrote:
> cheeky wrote:
> > Scented Nectar wrote:
> > > Yeah, what's your point? It's a hygiene problem in every instance. I
> > > don't really care about the fact that it originates in cows as opposed
> > > to originating in the produce it ends up on, that's not the issue.
> > > Hygiene and contamination prevention are the issues. E.coli affects
> > > both vegetarians and meat-eaters. Both would benefit from better food
> > > hygiene.

> >
> > That was the whole point behind posting what I did:
> > Organic doesn't mean "healthier," "more nutritious," or "safer." The
> > latest food-borne scare involves organic produce -- just as the Odwalla
> > incident several years ago did. Organic only means free of SYNTHETIC
> > pesticides. In the US, there is no oversight of how much pesticide is
> > used on organic crops, nor is there testing for any residue on organic
> > produce (conventional foods, though, play by a tougher set of
> > safety rules).

>
> They should both play by the same rules, except for the obvious
> stricter rule that organics have to follow of only using organic
> methods.
>
> > > As someone with a botany hobby

> >
> > Smoking pot isn't "botany."

>
> You never listen. Anyone who knows me online or in real life knows that
> I'm very interested in fragrant and culinary plants.
>
> > > I know full well that good organic
> > > soil often has animal matter. I'm not claiming otherwise.

> >
> > Googling "scented nectar veganic..." Heh.

>
> Did you not see where I wrote 'often'? Do you not agree that often
> organic means they use manure? Yes there are good veganic soils out
> there, but I'm sure they are infrequent.
>
> > > There are better hygiene practices that could be followed,

> >
> > How about a little testing to see just how safe foods are?

>
> Testing is one element of food hygiene.
>
> > > Monitoring of
> > > irrigation water, ensuring manured soil base has a non-manured
> > > covering of a couple inches, things like that would help.

> >
> > So would testing and product labeling that would bring organics to the
> > same standards in those areas as conventional produce.

>
> I don't see any labels on conventional produce. If you think it's
> needed for organics, then it's only logical to conclude it's needed for
> conventionals too.




The city of El Paso, Texas is using more and more of available water
and releasing treated sewage water to farmers for irrigation.

Apparently the city requires more water and are going to recirc the
treated sewer water into the mains for reconsumption by the city.

Apart from there being a water war starting to heat up, it's obvious
that the water being sent to the farmers could have significant levels
of E.coli.

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girlyman ron homo-ton wrote:

>
> Scented Nectar wrote:
> > chico wrote:
> > > Scented Nectar wrote:
> > > > Yeah, what's your point? It's a hygiene problem in every
> > > > instance. I don't really care about the fact that it originates
> > > > in cows as opposed to originating in the produce it ends up on,
> > > > that's not the issue. Hygiene and contamination prevention are
> > > > the issues. E.coli affects both vegetarians and meat-eaters.
> > > > Both would benefit from better food hygiene.
> > >
> > > That was the whole point behind posting what I did:
> > > Organic doesn't mean "healthier," "more nutritious," or "safer."
> > > The latest food-borne scare involves organic produce -- just as
> > > the Odwalla incident several years ago did. Organic only means
> > > free of SYNTHETIC pesticides. In the US, there is no oversight of
> > > how much pesticide is used on organic crops, nor is there testing
> > > for any residue on organic produce (conventional foods, though,
> > > play by a tougher set of safety rules).

> >
> > They should both play by the same rules, except for the obvious
> > stricter rule that organics have to follow of only using organic
> > methods.
> >
> > > > As someone with a botany hobby
> > >
> > > Smoking pot isn't "botany."

> >
> > You never listen. Anyone who knows me online or in real life knows
> > that I'm very interested in fragrant and culinary plants.
> >
> > > > I know full well that good organic
> > > > soil often has animal matter. I'm not claiming otherwise.
> > >
> > > Googling "scented nectar veganic..." Heh.

> >
> > Did you not see where I wrote 'often'? Do you not agree that often
> > organic means they use manure? Yes there are good veganic soils out
> > there, but I'm sure they are infrequent.
> >
> > > > There are better hygiene practices that could be followed,
> > >
> > > How about a little testing to see just how safe foods are?

> >
> > Testing is one element of food hygiene.
> >
> > > > Monitoring of
> > > > irrigation water, ensuring manured soil base has a non-manured
> > > > covering of a couple inches, things like that would help.
> > >
> > > So would testing and product labeling that would bring organics to
> > > the same standards in those areas as conventional produce.

> >
> > I don't see any labels on conventional produce. If you think it's
> > needed for organics, then it's only logical to conclude it's needed
> > for conventionals too.

>
> The city of El Paso, Texas is using more and more of available water
> and releasing treated sewage water to farmers for irrigation.


WTF are you rambling about, sissy? El Paso, like other cities in the
Southwest, has a limited water supply that's insufficient for its
growing population. Many cities in the SW reclaim/recycle water for
their fresh water supply using a variety of methods. Many cities -- El
Paso has been on the cutting edge of this (Austin has also been selling
"Dillo Dirt" for years) -- compost the solids for use in a variety of
crops; the compost is acceptable for use on both ornamental
and food crops. Reclaimed water can be diverted to uses that don't
require extensive treatment (irrigation, manufacturing, etc.) or for the
municipal supply.

El Paso:
http://www.epwu.org/reclaimed_water/r_water.html

Albuquerque:
http://www.abcwua.org/wastewater/plant.html

Austin:
http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/water/dillo.htm

> Apparently the city requires more water and are going to recirc the
> treated sewer water into the mains for reconsumption by the city.


You apparently didn't comprehend whatever it was you read.

> Apart from there being a water war starting to heat up,


STARTING? It's been going for over sixty years, dumb ass.

> it's obvious
> that the water being sent to the farmers could have significant levels
> of E.coli.


No, it's not "obvious" because water diverted for irrigation is treated.
The bigger danger for E coli is run off from ranching operations -- but,
wrt the spinach outbreak, the California farms are about 1500 miles
away. Dipshit.
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chico chupacabra wrote:
>
> > 'Why are there pesticide residues at all on organic produce?

>
> 1. Because organic doesn't mean "pesticide-free" -- it only means free
> of SYNTHETIC pesticides and fertilizers.
> 2. Because unscrupulous farmers often lie to get premium prices for
> "organic" produce (just like horsetraders who tell buyers that the
> horses have been recently ridden).
> a. organic certification isn't based on actual product testing.
> b. it's a farmer's word against anyone else's because of (a).
>


Because with all the pesticides sprayed around, it is everywhere!

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chico chupacabra wrote:
> girlyman ron homo-ton wrote:
>
> >
> > Scented Nectar wrote:
> > > chico wrote:
> > > > Scented Nectar wrote:
> > > > > Yeah, what's your point? It's a hygiene problem in every
> > > > > instance. I don't really care about the fact that it originates
> > > > > in cows as opposed to originating in the produce it ends up on,
> > > > > that's not the issue. Hygiene and contamination prevention are
> > > > > the issues. E.coli affects both vegetarians and meat-eaters.
> > > > > Both would benefit from better food hygiene.
> > > >
> > > > That was the whole point behind posting what I did:
> > > > Organic doesn't mean "healthier," "more nutritious," or "safer."
> > > > The latest food-borne scare involves organic produce -- just as
> > > > the Odwalla incident several years ago did. Organic only means
> > > > free of SYNTHETIC pesticides. In the US, there is no oversight of
> > > > how much pesticide is used on organic crops, nor is there testing
> > > > for any residue on organic produce (conventional foods, though,
> > > > play by a tougher set of safety rules).
> > >
> > > They should both play by the same rules, except for the obvious
> > > stricter rule that organics have to follow of only using organic
> > > methods.
> > >
> > > > > As someone with a botany hobby
> > > >
> > > > Smoking pot isn't "botany."
> > >
> > > You never listen. Anyone who knows me online or in real life knows
> > > that I'm very interested in fragrant and culinary plants.
> > >
> > > > > I know full well that good organic
> > > > > soil often has animal matter. I'm not claiming otherwise.
> > > >
> > > > Googling "scented nectar veganic..." Heh.
> > >
> > > Did you not see where I wrote 'often'? Do you not agree that often
> > > organic means they use manure? Yes there are good veganic soils out
> > > there, but I'm sure they are infrequent.
> > >
> > > > > There are better hygiene practices that could be followed,
> > > >
> > > > How about a little testing to see just how safe foods are?
> > >
> > > Testing is one element of food hygiene.
> > >
> > > > > Monitoring of
> > > > > irrigation water, ensuring manured soil base has a non-manured
> > > > > covering of a couple inches, things like that would help.
> > > >
> > > > So would testing and product labeling that would bring organics to
> > > > the same standards in those areas as conventional produce.
> > >
> > > I don't see any labels on conventional produce. If you think it's
> > > needed for organics, then it's only logical to conclude it's needed
> > > for conventionals too.

> >
> > The city of El Paso, Texas is using more and more of available water
> > and releasing treated sewage water to farmers for irrigation.

>
> WTF are you rambling about, sissy? El Paso, like other cities in the
> Southwest, has a limited water supply that's insufficient for its
> growing population. Many cities in the SW reclaim/recycle water for
> their fresh water supply using a variety of methods. Many cities -- El
> Paso has been on the cutting edge of this (Austin has also been selling
> "Dillo Dirt" for years) -- compost the solids for use in a variety of
> crops; the compost is acceptable for use on both ornamental
> and food crops. Reclaimed water can be diverted to uses that don't
> require extensive treatment (irrigation, manufacturing, etc.) or for the
> municipal supply.
>
> El Paso:
> http://www.epwu.org/reclaimed_water/r_water.html
>
> Albuquerque:
> http://www.abcwua.org/wastewater/plant.html
>
> Austin:
> http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/water/dillo.htm
>
> > Apparently the city requires more water and are going to recirc the
> > treated sewer water into the mains for reconsumption by the city.

>
> You apparently didn't comprehend whatever it was you read.
>
> > Apart from there being a water war starting to heat up,

>
> STARTING? It's been going for over sixty years, dumb ass.
>
> > it's obvious
> > that the water being sent to the farmers could have significant levels
> > of E.coli.

>
> No, it's not "obvious" because water diverted for irrigation is treated.
> The bigger danger for E coli is run off from ranching operations -- but,
> wrt the spinach outbreak, the California farms are about 1500 miles
> away. Dipshit.



You dippy dork! You NEVER read what I posted.

The farmers are going to have LESS water because El Paso is going to
recycle the water for their drinking and washing that they would
normally send to the farmers.

Can you do the math? The farmers will have LESS water.

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> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> chico chupacabra wrote:
>> wrote:
>>
>> > I understand they are testing the groundwater

>>
>> They're testing a whole lot of stuff right now to pinpoint the problem.
>>
>> > used to irrigate the
>> > spinach for the bad E. coli. If the fields in question are next to
>> > Natural Selection Farms at 1721 San Juan Highway north of San Juan
>> > Bautista, then they need to test both the spinach and the groundwater
>> > for perchlorate as well.

>>
>> Right now, the e coli issue is a little more important because it's
>> acutely lethal for human beings, dope. Possible thyroid problems
>> resulting from over-exposure of perchlorates would take a very long
>> time to develop and are reversible. The effects of e coli, particularly
>> among the elderly and the young and those who are immuno-compromised,
>> aren't so easily reversed -- especially when they die.
>>

>
> Escherichia Coli bacteria are actually necessary for us to live - not
> "acutely lethal for human beings" - that would a -lack- of E. Coli.
>
> The strain you are worried about kills far more people through beef
> contamination.
>
>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli_O157:H7
>
> I for one went out and brought some organic spinach right after I heard
> the news, and ate it right out of the bag. Tasty!

==========================

Looks like, despite your best efforts, you unfortunately didn't get one of
the bags of spinach specially seasoned with the delicious E. coli O157:H7
strain that were out there (or else you didn't eat enough of it)..... O
well, better luck next time! :-)

(Note: I've just read that sometimes the incubation period can be as long as
8 days, so don't give up hope yet!)




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frant wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > chico chupacabra wrote:
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > I understand they are testing the groundwater
> >>
> >> They're testing a whole lot of stuff right now to pinpoint the problem.
> >>
> >> > used to irrigate the
> >> > spinach for the bad E. coli. If the fields in question are next to
> >> > Natural Selection Farms at 1721 San Juan Highway north of San Juan
> >> > Bautista, then they need to test both the spinach and the groundwater
> >> > for perchlorate as well.
> >>
> >> Right now, the e coli issue is a little more important because it's
> >> acutely lethal for human beings, dope. Possible thyroid problems
> >> resulting from over-exposure of perchlorates would take a very long
> >> time to develop and are reversible. The effects of e coli, particularly
> >> among the elderly and the young and those who are immuno-compromised,
> >> aren't so easily reversed -- especially when they die.
> >>

> >
> > Escherichia Coli bacteria are actually necessary for us to live - not
> > "acutely lethal for human beings" - that would a -lack- of E. Coli.
> >
> > The strain you are worried about kills far more people through beef
> > contamination.
> >
> >
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli_O157:H7
> >
> > I for one went out and brought some organic spinach right after I heard
> > the news, and ate it right out of the bag. Tasty!

> ==========================
>
> Looks like, despite your best efforts, you unfortunately didn't get one of
> the bags of spinach specially seasoned with the delicious E. coli O157:H7
> strain that were out there (or else you didn't eat enough of it)..... O
> well, better luck next time! :-)
>
> (Note: I've just read that sometimes the incubation period can be as long as
> 8 days, so don't give up hope yet!)



Thanks for your encouragement

OMG! One person died! Run for the hills!

In related news, auto manufacturers have recently recalled all vehicles
with four wheels. One person was killed in a collision earlier this
year. All autos are being collected and compacted, and just to make
sure the Chinese are going to kill all their chickens and England is
slaughtering thousands of livestock to unspecified deities.

  #40 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to alt.animals.ethics.vegetarian,alt.food.vegan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 353
Default organic spinach at center of outbreak

wrote:

>
> frant wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> > ups.com...
> > >
> > > chico chupacabra wrote:
> > >>
wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > I understand they are testing the groundwater
> > >>
> > >> They're testing a whole lot of stuff right now to pinpoint the
> > >> problem.
> > >>
> > >> > used to irrigate the
> > >> > spinach for the bad E. coli. If the fields in question are
> > >> > next to Natural Selection Farms at 1721 San Juan Highway north
> > >> > of San Juan Bautista, then they need to test both the spinach
> > >> > and the groundwater for perchlorate as well.
> > >>
> > >> Right now, the e coli issue is a little more important because
> > >> it's acutely lethal for human beings, dope. Possible thyroid
> > >> problems resulting from over-exposure of perchlorates would take
> > >> a very long time to develop and are reversible. The effects of e
> > >> coli, particularly among the elderly and the young and those who
> > >> are immuno-compromised, aren't so easily reversed -- especially
> > >> when they die.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Escherichia Coli bacteria are actually necessary for us to live -
> > > not "acutely lethal for human beings" - that would a -lack- of E.
> > > Coli.
> > >
> > > The strain you are worried about kills far more people through
> > > beef contamination.


I know it's not like you to pay attention to silly things like
"details," you irrationally contrarian shithead. Let the facts get in
your way for once: through consumption of *GROUND* beef. There are no
widespread outbreaks of E coli infection linked to steaks, ribs,
roasts, or any other whole cut of beef.

> > >
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli_O157:H7
> > >
> > > I for one went out and brought some organic spinach right after I
> > > heard the news, and ate it right out of the bag. Tasty!

> > ==========================
> >
> > Looks like, despite your best efforts, you unfortunately didn't get
> > one of the bags of spinach specially seasoned with the delicious E.
> > coli O157:H7 strain that were out there (or else you didn't eat
> > enough of it)..... O well, better luck next time! :-)
> >
> > (Note: I've just read that sometimes the incubation period can be
> > as long as 8 days, so don't give up hope yet!)

>
>
> Thanks for your encouragement
>
> OMG! One person died! Run for the hills!


Never mind your lack of respect for the dead, have you bothered
counting up how many people have been hospitalized with renal failure,
convulsions, etc.? Or how many people now need kidney transplants,
multiple blood transfusions, etc., who were perfectly healthy
individuals before eating tainted produce? Try sixty-six total at last
count, twenty of whom have hemolytic-uremic syndrome (HUS) -- which is
often accompanied by acute respiratory failure as well -- and require
intensive medical care.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...b7wRk&refer=us
http://apnews.excite.com/article/200...D8K8J4GG1.html
http://www.emedicine.com/EMERG/topic238.htm

You ignorant ****.
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