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Default food for thought: organics and food safety

psycho bitch Lesley fantasized:

> I'll repeat - veganic farming


Is the flawed pseudo-intellectual product of urban vegans who object to
Nature. You won't find "veganic" grains or legumes, much less "veganic"
produce, at the supermarket. Leave it to someone who believes in "inner
earth beings" to promote clueless urbanite pipedreams.

BTW, is your horse trading compatible with "veganic" principles?
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wrote:

<...>
> > Ask yourself, which would I choose: Side effects, or
> > no side effects? It's a very simple answer. Isn't it?

>
> Not always. Sometimes


Just "sometimes"?

> isolating the compounds that you are interested
> in can eliminate side effects. You probably want ethanol, rather than
> a mix including methanol, for example.


<...>

<snip Lesley's horseshit from a pseudoscience website>

> I think part of the problem is that it's difficult to be precise with
> dosages - because each plant has varying concentrations of the "active
> ingredients". However, that same problem stays a problem even with
> precisely measured pure compounds, because the patients also vary in
> the effects.


Not so much that standardized doses can't be computed. It's not like
every patient is prescribed the same dose to be taken the same number of
times per day.

> Nice computer-labelled plastic pillboxes look very
> precise, but aren't necessarily.


A lot more so than you suggest, but what else is new.

> Surely off topic here but that's OK.
>
> Part of the problem is simply education. Some people don't even know
> of the medicinal properties of garlic,


Can you cite any double blind studies, preferably written and available
in English, which demonstrate "medicinal properties" of garlic?

> and they aren't going to learn
> by watching pharmaceutical ads on TV, and a healthcare culture that
> insists - never think for yourself.


According to whom?

> Consult your healthcare professional.


Wise counsel considering how much harder it is to undo the damage you
can cause yourself from quackery -- e.g., eating more garlic or getting
foot massages for something a little more serious than either "folk
remedy" is acceptable therapy -- compared to messing up your taxes.

> Another problem is this vestige of the monarchy system
> that we still have hanging around, known as "intellectual property
> law".


What's wrong with copyrights, patents, and other forms of protecting
one's work?
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chico chupacabra answers his own questions:

<...>
> > Part of the problem is simply education. Some people don't even
> > know of the medicinal properties of garlic,

>
> Can you cite any double blind studies, preferably written and
> available in English, which demonstrate "medicinal properties" of
> garlic?


How effective is garlic?
Research on medicinal uses of allicin in
fresh garlic indicate it can lower blood pressure
and cholesterol. Ajoene may be useful in
slowing blood clotting. In this way, garlic
protects against heart disease and stroke. These
results do not apply to garlic supplements,
however. Studies also show that fresh garlic, in
large quantities, can lower cholesterol levels.
Because garlic thins the blood, it may lower
blood pressure.
Other findings suggest that high levels of
garlic may prevent development of cancer by
stimulating the immune system and hindering
growth of cancer cells. Labora-
tory studies show that garlic can
inhibit bacteria growth and may
fight infection. However, those
results are unproven in humans.
http://tinyurl.com/zb3qt

Not much, eh. Just as I suspected.
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"chico chupacabra" > wrote in message ...
> chico chupacabra answers his own questions:
>
> <...>
> > > Part of the problem is simply education. Some people don't even
> > > know of the medicinal properties of garlic,

> >
> > Can you cite any double blind studies, preferably written and
> > available in English, which demonstrate "medicinal properties" of
> > garlic?

>
> How effective is garlic?
> Research on medicinal uses of allicin in
> fresh garlic indicate it can lower blood pressure
> and cholesterol. Ajoene may be useful in
> slowing blood clotting. In this way, garlic
> protects against heart disease and stroke. These
> results do not apply to garlic supplements,
> however. Studies also show that fresh garlic, in
> large quantities, can lower cholesterol levels.
> Because garlic thins the blood, it may lower
> blood pressure.
> Other findings suggest that high levels of
> garlic may prevent development of cancer by
> stimulating the immune system and hindering
> growth of cancer cells. Labora-
> tory studies show that garlic can
> inhibit bacteria growth and may
> fight infection. However, those
> results are unproven in humans.
> http://tinyurl.com/zb3qt
>
> Not much, eh. Just as I suspected.


Not much! If it was a drug, you'd be SINGING its praises!

How did you 'miss' this??? :

Protection against Helicobacter pylori and Other Bacterial
Infections by Garlic1
Gowsala P. Sivam
Bastyr University, Research Institute, Kenmore, WA 98028

ABSTRACT
Louis Pasteur was the first to describe the antibacterial effect of
onion and garlic juices. Historically, garlic has been used worldwide
to fight bacterial infections. Allium vegetables, particularly garlic
(Allium sativum L.) exhibit a broad antibiotic spectrum against both
gram-positive and gram-negative bacteria. Noteworthy results
published include the following: 1) raw juice of garlic was found to
be effective against many common pathogenic bacteria-intestinal
bacteria, which are responsible for diarrhea in humans and animals;
2) garlic is effective even against those strains that have become
resistant to antibiotics; 3) the combination of garlic with antibiotics
leads to partial or total synergism; 4) complete lack of resistance
has been observed repeatedly; 5) even toxin production by
microorganisms is prevented by garlic. Helicobacter pylori (H. pylori)
is a bacterium implicated in the etiology of stomach cancer and ulcers.
The incidence of stomach cancer is lower in populations with a high
intake of allium vegetables. We have demonstrated in vitro that H. pylori
is susceptible to garlic extract at a fairly moderate concentration.
Even some antibiotic-resistant H. pylori strains are susceptible to garlic.
Clinical trials are necessary to explore the possibility of using garlic as
a low-cost remedy for eradicating H. pylori.

KEY WORDS: . garlic . Allium . antibacterial activity . Helicobacter pylori
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/...ct/131/3/1106S

'In ancient times, garlic was used for the treatment of cancer of the
uterus (Hartwell, 1960; Essman, 1984; Doetsch, 1989; Konvicka, 1983).
Numerous reports, including several important epidemiological studies,
have entered the scientific literature ever since, asserting that garlic has
a favourable effect of various forms of cancer. The following provides
an overview of the current research and points of view concerning this
very interesting special area of medicine.
...
A very important epidemiological (prospective cohort) study for
Americans has recently been published in which the intake of 127 foods
(including 44 vegetables and fruits) was determined in 41,387 women
(ages 55-69) followed by a five-year monitoring of colon cancer
incidence (Steinmetz et al., 1994). The most striking result of this "Iowa
Women's Health Study" was the finding that garlic was the only food
which showed a statistically significant association with decreased
colon cancer risk. For cancers anywhere in the colon, the modest
consumption of one or more servings of garlic (fresh or powdered)
per week resulted in a 35% lower risk, while a 50% lower risk was found
for cancer of the distal colon. Although this study of 127 foods did not
include onions, several other epidemiological studies have shown that
onions and other Allium species are usually associated with decreased
gastrointestinal cancer risk. Although the results have been less
consistent than with garlic (Steinmetz & Potter, 1991, 1993; Haenszel et al.,
1972; You et al., 1989; Cook-Mozaffari et al., 1979; Tajima & Tominaga,
1985; Shu et al., 1993; Tuyns et al., 1992; Graham et al., 1994; Levi et al.,
1993a, 1993b)
......'
http://www.garlic.mistral.co.uk/cancer.htm




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wide-eyed true-believer Lesley wrote:

> > <...>
> > > > Part of the problem is simply education. Some people don't even
> > > > know of the medicinal properties of garlic,
> > >
> > > Can you cite any double blind studies, preferably written and
> > > available in English, which demonstrate "medicinal properties" of
> > > garlic?

> >
> > How effective is garlic?
> > Research on medicinal uses of allicin in
> > fresh garlic indicate it can lower blood pressure
> > and cholesterol. Ajoene may be useful in
> > slowing blood clotting. In this way, garlic
> > protects against heart disease and stroke. These
> > results do not apply to garlic supplements,
> > however. Studies also show that fresh garlic, in
> > large quantities, can lower cholesterol levels.
> > Because garlic thins the blood, it may lower
> > blood pressure.
> > Other findings suggest that high levels of
> > garlic may prevent development of cancer by
> > stimulating the immune system and hindering
> > growth of cancer cells. Labora-
> > tory studies show that garlic can
> > inhibit bacteria growth and may
> > fight infection. However, those
> > results are unproven in humans.
> > http://tinyurl.com/zb3qt
> >
> > Not much, eh. Just as I suspected.

>
> Not much!


Correct, not much:

Thirty-seven randomized trials, all but one in adults, consistently
showed that compared with placebo, various garlic preparations led to
*SMALL*, statistically significant reductions in total cholesterol at 1
month (range of average pooled reductions 1.2 to 17.3 milligrams per
deciliter [mg/dL]) and 3 months (range of average pooled reductions 12.4
to 25.4 mg/dL)...Eight placebo-controlled trials reported total
cholesterol outcomes at 6 months; pooled analyses showed NO SIGNIFICANT
REDUCTIONS of total cholesterol with garlic compared with placebo. It is
not clear if statistically significant positive short-term effects?but
negative longer term effects?are due to: systematic differences in
studies that have longer or shorter followup durations; fewer longer
term studies; or time-dependent effects of garlic....

Twenty-seven small, randomized, placebo-controlled trials, all but one
in adults and of short duration, reported MIXED BUT NEVER LARGE effects
of various garlic preparations on blood pressure outcomes. Most studies
did not find significant differences between persons randomized to
garlic compared with those randomized to placebo....

Twelve small, randomized trials, all in adults, suggested that various
garlic preparations had NO CLINICALLY SIGNIFICANT EFFECT on
glucose in persons with or without diabetes. Two small short trials,
both in adults, reported NO STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT EFFECTS of
garlic compared with placebo on serum insulin or C peptide levels.

Ten small, randomized trials, all but one in adults and of short
duration, showed promising effects of various garlic preparations on
platelet aggregation and mixed effects on plasma viscosity and
fibrinolytic activity. Because the trials had only 409 participants,
short followup periods, unclear randomization processes, no
intention-to-treat analyses, missing data, and variability in techniques
used to assess outcomes, NO FIRM CONCLUSIONS CAN BE DRAWN.

There were INSUFFICIENT DATA to confirm or refute effects of garlic on
clinical outcomes such as myocardial infarction and claudication. One
3-year randomized trial with 492 participants found NO STATISTICALLY
SIGNIFICANT DECREASES in numbers of myocardial infarctions and deaths
when placebo was compared with 6 to 10 grams of garlic ether extract....

SCANT DATA, primarily from case-control studies, suggest, but DO NOT
PROVE, dietary garlic consumption is associated with decreased odds of
laryngeal, gastric, colorectal, and endometrial cancer and adenomatous
colorectal polyps. Single case-control studies suggest, but DO NOT
PROVE, dietary garlic consumption is NOT associated with breast
or prostate cancer....

ADVERSE EFFECTS of oral ingestion of garlic are "smelly" breath and body
odor. Other possible, but not proven, adverse effects include
flatulence, esophageal and abdominal PAIN, small intestinal OBSTRUCTION,
contact DERMATITIS, RHINITIS, ASTHMA, BLEEDING, and MYOCARDIAL
INFARCTION.

Conclusions

There are insufficient data to draw conclusions regarding garlic's
effects on clinical cardiovascular outcomes such as claudication and
myocardial infarction. Garlic preparations may have small, positive,
short-term effects on lipids; whether effects are sustainable beyond 3
months is unclear. Consistent reductions in blood pressure with garlic
were not found, and no effects on glucose or insulin sensitivity were
found. Some promising effects on antithrombotic activity were reported,
but few data are available for definitive conclusion.

Using "any" garlic supplement for less than 3 to 5 years was not
associated with decreased risks of breast, lung, gastric, colon, or
rectal cancer. Some case-control studies suggest that high dietary
garlic consumption may be associated with decreased risks of laryngeal,
gastric, colorectal, and endometrial cancers, and adenomatous colorectal
polyps.

Multiple adverse effects, including smelly breath and body odor,
dermatitis, bleeding, abdominal symptoms, and flatulence, have been
reported. Whether adverse effects occur more commonly with certain
preparations than others was not established. Furthermore, the causality
of the adverse effects was not clear, except for breath and body odor,
and the expected frequency of adverse effects was not determined.

http://www.ahrq.gov/clinic/epcsums/garlicsum.htm


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wide-eyed true believer Lesley wrote:

> Not much! If it was a drug, you'd be SINGING its praises!


If it were a drug, you'd have to be a lot more careful about your
crazy and unfounded claims:

Garlic is frequently touted as a remedy for high blood pressure, blood
sugar imbalances, and arterial plaque. Some advocates even claim that
garlic can prevent or cure cancer. But according to the National Center
for Complimentary and Alternative Medicine, although garlic may have
some health benefits, its reputation as a miracle remedy is not
supported by available research.
http://www.faqs.org/nutrition/Pre-Sma/Quackery.html

However, the epidemiologic data do have some limitations, which decrease
the strength of the evidence currently available. For example,
consumption is often reported as frequency instead of amount consumed,
and the consumption categories differ widely among studies. In addition,
the meta-analysis (120) indicated that the apparent protective effect
found between Allium vegetable consumption and cancers of the stomach
and colon may have been overestimated, suggesting a possible publication
bias. Lack of adjustment in the statistical analyses also limits the
strength of the conclusion. For example, the data for stomach cancer
were generally not adjusted for fruit and vegetable consumption, which
are known to be protective and could therefore be a confounder in the
analysis. Clinical trials are not currently available, but they could be
useful for assessing the ability of garlic and other Allium vegetables
to prevent cancer or preneoplastic lesions. There are difficulties in
standardizing the real intake of Allium vegetables, and in estimating
the composition in organosulfur compounds and other chemicals. In
addition, these trials cannot use cancer as the end point and should
therefore rely on surrogate intermediate biomarkers (121). Such end
points are not fully validated, and further research is needed to
develop and validate suitable biomarkers.
http://www.ehponline.org/members/200...-full.html#con
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foot-rubbing wacko Lesley wrote:

> Not much! If it was a drug, you'd be SINGING its praises!


No, but I'm not surprised you a

Numerous controlled trials have examined the effects of oral garlic on
serum lipids. Most studies have been small (<100 subjects), with poorly
described design and results, and most have reported non-significant
modest benefits... Small reductions in low-density lipoprotein (LDL) (by
<10mg/dL) and triglycerides (by <20mg/dL) may also occur in the
short-term, although results have been variable. High-density
lipoprotein (HDL) levels are not significantly affected. Long-term
effects on lipids or cardiovascular morbidity and mortality remain
unknown.

Small reductions in blood pressure (<10mmHg), inhibition of platelet
aggregation, and enhancement of fibrinolytic activity have been
reported, and may exert effects on cardiovascular outcomes, although
evidence is preliminary in these areas.

Numerous case-control/population-based studies suggest that regular
consumption of garlic (particularly unprocessed garlic) may reduce the
risk of developing several types of cancer, including gastric and
colorectal malignancies. However, prospective controlled trials are
lacking.

Multiple cases of bleeding have been associated with garlic use, and
caution is warranted in patients at risk of bleeding or prior to some
surgical/dental procedures. Garlic does not appear to significantly
affect blood glucose levels.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/d...nt-garlic.html

Check out the scorecard on the above link. One B, a couple Ds, the rest
Cs. Ho hum.
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"chico chupacabra" > wrote in message ...

> pearl wrote:
>
> > > <...>
> > > > > Part of the problem is simply education. Some people don't even
> > > > > know of the medicinal properties of garlic,
> > > >
> > > > Can you cite any double blind studies, preferably written and
> > > > available in English, which demonstrate "medicinal properties" of
> > > > garlic?
> > >
> > > How effective is garlic?
> > > Research on medicinal uses of allicin in
> > > fresh garlic indicate it can lower blood pressure
> > > and cholesterol. Ajoene may be useful in
> > > slowing blood clotting. In this way, garlic
> > > protects against heart disease and stroke. These
> > > results do not apply to garlic supplements,
> > > however. Studies also show that fresh garlic, in
> > > large quantities, can lower cholesterol levels.
> > > Because garlic thins the blood, it may lower
> > > blood pressure.
> > > Other findings suggest that high levels of
> > > garlic may prevent development of cancer by
> > > stimulating the immune system and hindering
> > > growth of cancer cells. Labora-
> > > tory studies show that garlic can
> > > inhibit bacteria growth and may
> > > fight infection. However, those
> > > results are unproven in humans.
> > > http://tinyurl.com/zb3qt
> > >
> > > Not much, eh. Just as I suspected.

> >
> > Not much! If it was a drug, you'd be SINGING its praises!

>
> Correct,


So, I see you've moved the goalposts. You also omitted the section
on limitations from your post. In reference to what was considered:

'Limitations
Notable limitations in summarizing findings from garlic research
include the substantial variability in types of garlic and garlic
preparations that have been studied and an inadequate definition
of the active, biologically available constituents in the various
preparations. In addition, many trials that evaluated the effects of
garlic on cardiovascular-related endpoints are limited by short
durations; inadequate randomization and blinding procedures;
lack of clear specification of contents of garlic preparations-
including their constituents and dissolution properties; lack of
intention-to-treat analyses; and incomplete reporting of data.
The meta-analysis we performed is limited by some missing data
at different time points and by the need to impute variability data
from some trials.
http://www.ahrq.gov/clinic/epcsums/garlicsum.htm

Too busy messing about with animals, 'disease' and chemicals, innit.

Treatment with garlic can't, and isn't meant to replace a healthy diet.
It has its place as an aid in treatment, and as part of a healthy diet.

Nutrition in Clinical Care
Volume 3 Page 145 - June 2000
doi:10.1046/j.1523-5408.2000.00043.xVolume 3 Issue 3 Garlic and
Cardiovascular Disease
Michelle H. Loy Richard S. Rivlin, MD Nutr Clin Care. 2000;3:145-152

Abstract
The goal of this review is to evaluate the current status of knowledge
concerning cardiovascular effects of allium derivatives from garlic and
to identify potential areas of future research. To date, the cardiovascular
actions most studied include lipoprotein metabolism, hypertension,
thrombosis, and antioxidant capacity. There are also some preliminary
findings suggesting that garlic may lower elevated serum levels of
homocysteine. Epidemiological, clinical, and laboratory studies have
reported that garlic contains many biologically and pharmacologically
active compounds. The majority of studies show that garlic lowers
total serum cholesterol and LDL-cholesterol; inhibition of HMG-CoA
reductase or squalene epoxidase appears to be the major mechanism.
Lowering of blood pressure likely results from inhibition of angiotensin-
converting enzyme activity. Antithrombosis effects may be related to
inhibition of adenosine deaminase. Antioxidant effects may be related
to the inhibition of lipoxygenase. The published studies in their aggregate
suggest that appropriate usage of allium derivatives from garlic may
potentially play a role in the maintenance of optimal cardiac function.
Further research is needed to examine the structure-function relationships
of the various allium derivatives of garlic, the amounts in foods and
supplements required for efficacy, and the possible effects of combining
garlic with other nutrients and medications. The mechanisms of action of
allium derivatives on various aspects of cardiac function require further
clarification.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/lin...8.2000.00043.x




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chico chupacabra wrote:
> wrote:
>
> <...>
>
>
> > Surely off topic here but that's OK.
> >
> > Part of the problem is simply education. Some people don't even know
> > of the medicinal properties of garlic,

>
> Can you cite any double blind studies, preferably written and available
> in English, which demonstrate "medicinal properties" of garlic?
>


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

might be a good place to start.

Some quotes to inspire your googling:

GARLIC EXTRACT (from 66 mg fresh garlic) were found to be effective
antibiotic agents against many bacteria, including Staphylococcus
aureus, Escherichia coli, salmonella enteritidis, Klebsiella
pneumoniae, and mycobacteria.45,46,47 These studies compared the
antimicrobial effects of garlic with those of commonly used
antibiotics, including penicillin, streptomycin, chloramphenicol,
erythromycin, and tetracyclines. These studies demonstrated garlic's
efficacy in inhibiting the growth of some bacteria that had become
resistant to one or more of the antibiotics.

Garlic possesses important immune-enhancing and anticancer properties.
Human studies show that garlic inhibits the formation of nitrosamines
which are powerful cancer-causing compounds formed during digestion.48

Garlic has demonstrated significant antifungal activity against a wide
range of fungi. Garlic is especially active against C. albicans, being
more potent than Nystatin and six other reputed antifungal agents.49

Garlic's antiviral effects have been well studied. In vitro, fresh
garlic killed herpes simplex types 1 and 2, para-influenza virus type
3, vesicular stomatitis virus, and human rhinovirus type 2. Fresh
garlic extract was virucidal against all viruses tested but the
virucidal activity of commercial products depended how they were
prepared. Those products producing the highest level of allicin and
other thio-sulfinates, such as found in Factor Twelve: Opti-cillin, had
the best virucidal activity.50

(from http://www.doctorsexercise.com/produ...n/factor12.htm)

> > Another problem is this vestige of the monarchy system
> > that we still have hanging around, known as "intellectual property
> > law".

>
> What's wrong with copyrights, patents, and other forms of protecting
> one's work?
>


What's wrong is that free market forces are effectively eliminated.
I'm not against all kinds of communism/socialism, but I generally argue
in favor of free markets.

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frant wrote:
> "pearl" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "frant" > wrote in message ...
> >> "pearl" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > > wrote in message
> >> > oups.com...
> >> >>
> >> >> chico chupacabra wrote:
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > > I for one went out and brought some organic spinach right after I
> >> >> > > heard the news, and ate it right out of the bag. Tasty!
> >> >
> >> > And safe!
> >> ===========================
> >>
> >> I think that should be a sad face, not a happy face, Pearl. :-(

> >
> > Sad that anyone's sick, but happy that it's not organic and that shevek's
> > safe.
> >
> >> The reason Shevek bought the organic spinach and ate it raw (right after
> >> hearing the news) was because Shevek thought it was (or likely was) the
> >> organic spinach that was contaminated with the E. coli O157:H7 strain.

> >
> > Don't be silly. Shevek was just taking the goat-sucker for a stroll.

> ===================================
>
> I'm not so sure about that.... In responding to my earlier message, Shevek
> posted a fictional "in related news" story whose purpose was to suggest that
> the FDA E. coli O157:H7 contaminated spinach warning / recall was a big
> overblown waste of time. Additionally, Shevek sarcastically stated "OMG!
> One person died! Run for the hills!". Those, in conjunction with the
> statements "I for one went out and brought some organic spinach right after
> I heard the news, and ate it right out of the bag. Tasty!" lead me to
> believe that Shevek thinks the spinach E. coli O157:H7 outbreak is more a
> reason to go out and buy and eat the potentially contaminated spinach,
> rather than avoid it. But that's just my impression....


I appreciate your curiosity Frant. I think you are basically right.

So, why did the news make me want to go get some org. spinach of my
own?

Perhaps it is like the stories of heroin users, inspired by others
overdoses to find some from the same batch.. the really good stuff.

Perhaps it is my general rebellion against microbe-phobia. I certainly
acknowledge the huge progress made in keeping our sewage out of the
streets and the rats out of out of our cupboards. However, I feel it
is important to maintain healthy and evolving stomach flora and fauna.
I almost always drink the local water - at least some. Garbaging is
not only a great way to get food but to maintain a strong stomach
ecosystem. I'm willing to bet I've been exposed to O157:H7.

Perhaps it is my love of natural foods, that can maintain life. Sure,
a pasteurized and homogenized and preserved cooked spinach wouldn't
harbor O157:H7.. but I'm willing to take that risk for live food. The
news said the spinach had life in it, and maybe I was attracted by
that.

Or perhaps I'm just an anti-social goat-sucker walking neurotic with a
death-wish.

Cheers -



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pearl wrote:
> "chico chupacabra" > wrote in message ...
>
> > pearl wrote:
> >
> > > > <...>


Thanks Pearl & Chico -

I was unaware of these claims of cardiovascular or
cholesterol-modifying effects of garlic.

To you health - shevek

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