Tea (rec.drink.tea) Discussion relating to tea, the world's second most consumed beverage (after water), made by infusing or boiling the leaves of the tea plant (C. sinensis or close relatives) in water.

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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
Lewis Perin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

In researching information for Babelcarp's database, I often run Web
searches using Chinese characters. Typically you find vastly more
hits (mainly mainland Chinese sites) this way than if you use the
Pinyin name for a tea.

I've noticed often that a lot of hits will come from Japanese web
sites. This isn't too surprising when you think about it: Japanese is
written using (among other things) Chinese characters; why shouldn't
Japanese people be interested in Chinese tea; and for those Japanese
people who are interested in Chinese tea, why shouldn't they use
Chinese characters to refer to them?[1]

One thing, though, puzzles me about these Japanese sites for Chinese
teas: some of the teas they list can only be found on Japanese sites.
If a tea really is Chinese, why wouldn't it be retrievable on some
Chinese site? Here's an example. (This won't work, of course, if
your Web browser has no access to Chinese characters.) On the site

http://chinese-tea.info/03g/shurui.html

scroll down to the Jiangxi teas, where you'll find a tea whose Pinyin
name (in the right-hand column) is zhou da tie cha. Search for it
using the Chinese characters in the left-hand column. The results
will be exclusively Japanese sites.

Anyone know what's going on here? Kuri?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin / http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
[1]Actually, I just thought of a reason why Japanese people wouldn't
want to use Chinese characters: because, when using them in a Japanese
context, the phonemes they correspond to wouldn't be the same as in
Chinese.
  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
Space Cowboy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

The charset=shift_jis of the webpage indicates Japanese. All 2
character pairs are used for Japanese font sets. The characters you
see are from the Japanese fonts and not Chinese. That character may
very well exist in the Chinese font set and vice versa but the charset
setting on the HTML page tells where to look. Basically non Roman
languages take two characters for representation and a corresponding
font set. For example the Cha character in Japanese JIS is 3567 and
simplified Chinese GB 1872. The Glyph representation from both will
look the same and the same argument for "zhou da tie cha" in Japanese
JIS and Chinese GB where the Glyphs look the same but not the pairs.
Google will find computer strings anywhere which in your case just
happens to be on web pages with charset indicating JIS. It looks like
to me you did a post with Linux which comes with default international
language support. In Windows you optionally load the Unicode font set
called CJK for Chinese, Japanese, Korean which is the international
standard to replace national language sets like JIS and GB.

Jim

Lewis Perin wrote:
> In researching information for Babelcarp's database, I often run Web
> searches using Chinese characters. Typically you find vastly more
> hits (mainly mainland Chinese sites) this way than if you use the
> Pinyin name for a tea.
>
> I've noticed often that a lot of hits will come from Japanese web
> sites. This isn't too surprising when you think about it: Japanese is
> written using (among other things) Chinese characters; why shouldn't
> Japanese people be interested in Chinese tea; and for those Japanese
> people who are interested in Chinese tea, why shouldn't they use
> Chinese characters to refer to them?[1]
>
> One thing, though, puzzles me about these Japanese sites for Chinese
> teas: some of the teas they list can only be found on Japanese sites.
> If a tea really is Chinese, why wouldn't it be retrievable on some
> Chinese site? Here's an example. (This won't work, of course, if
> your Web browser has no access to Chinese characters.) On the site
>
> http://chinese-tea.info/03g/shurui.html
>
> scroll down to the Jiangxi teas, where you'll find a tea whose Pinyin
> name (in the right-hand column) is zhou da tie cha. Search for it
> using the Chinese characters in the left-hand column. The results
> will be exclusively Japanese sites.
>
> Anyone know what's going on here? Kuri?
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin / http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
> [1]Actually, I just thought of a reason why Japanese people wouldn't
> want to use Chinese characters: because, when using them in a Japanese
> context, the phonemes they correspond to wouldn't be the same as in
> Chinese.


  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Lewis Perin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

Warning: nerdy details abound here!

"Space Cowboy" > writes:
>
> Lewis Perin wrote:
>> [...why are there Chinese tea names that appear only in Japanese sites...]

>
> The charset=shift_jis of the webpage indicates Japanese. All 2
> character pairs are used for Japanese font sets. The characters you
> see are from the Japanese fonts and not Chinese. That character may
> very well exist in the Chinese font set and vice versa but the charset
> setting on the HTML page tells where to look. Basically non Roman
> languages take two characters for representation and a corresponding
> font set. For example the Cha character in Japanese JIS is 3567 and
> simplified Chinese GB 1872.


Yes, but it's still the same Unicode code point (33590, or 8336 in
hex), which is why you get both .cn and .jp web sites if you Google
for it.

> The Glyph representation from both will look the same and the same
> argument for "zhou da tie cha" in Japanese JIS and Chinese GB where
> the Glyphs look the same but not the pairs.


But Google, smart though it is, can't see the glyph; it can only see
the codepoint in whatever encoding is there. I've run these through
the Unihan database, and they're the Chinese codepoints that
correspond to the Pinyin on the same line of the page.

> Google will find computer strings anywhere which in your case just
> happens to be on web pages with charset indicating JIS. It looks
> like to me you did a post with Linux which comes with default
> international language support.


BSD, actually, but I didn't post anything that wasn't ASCII.

> In Windows you optionally load the Unicode font set called
> CJK for Chinese, Japanese, Korean which is the international
> standard to replace national language sets like JIS and GB.


Right, I use that a lot.

Thanks, Jim, for trying, but I don't see how this explains the phenomenon.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
kuri
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites


"Lewis Perin" > wrote in message
news
> In researching information for Babelcarp's database, I often run Web
> searches using Chinese characters. Typically you find vastly more
> hits (mainly mainland Chinese sites) this way than if you use the
> Pinyin name for a tea.
>
> I've noticed often that a lot of hits will come from Japanese web
> sites. This isn't too surprising when you think about it: Japanese is
> written using (among other things) Chinese characters; why shouldn't
> Japanese people be interested in Chinese tea; and for those Japanese
> people who are interested in Chinese tea, why shouldn't they use
> Chinese characters to refer to them?[1]
>
> One thing, though, puzzles me about these Japanese sites for Chinese
> teas: some of the teas they list can only be found on Japanese sites.
> If a tea really is Chinese, why wouldn't it be retrievable on some
> Chinese site? Here's an example. (This won't work, of course, if
> your Web browser has no access to Chinese characters.) On the site
>
> http://chinese-tea.info/03g/shurui.html
>
> scroll down to the Jiangxi teas, where you'll find a tea whose Pinyin
> name (in the right-hand column) is zhou da tie cha. Search for it
> using the Chinese characters in the left-hand column. The results
> will be exclusively Japanese sites.
>
> Anyone know what's going on here? Kuri?
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin / http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
> [1]Actually, I just thought of a reason why Japanese people wouldn't
> want to use Chinese characters: because, when using them in a Japanese
> context, the phonemes they correspond to wouldn't be the same as in
> Chinese.

  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
kuri
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites


"Lewis Perin" > wrote in message

>and for those Japanese
> people who are interested in Chinese tea, why shouldn't they use
> Chinese characters to refer to them?[1]


They have no other characters anyway. That'd be too bad to get rid of the
meaning and keep only a phonetic reading.

> [1]Actually, I just thought of a reason why Japanese people wouldn't
> want to use Chinese characters: because, when using them in a Japanese
> context, the phonemes they correspond to wouldn't be the same as in
> Chinese.


Isn't that the same for the different Chinese dialects ?

On the first column, they give the kanji name (for Japan) of that tea. In
the second, they give the Japanese reading that are supposed to use (real
tea fans tend to know the pin yin actually used in China better than the
Japanese reading).
There is the possibility that some of the characters used in the first
column are only for the Japanese naming of that tea. One possibility is that
the Chinese original uses a more simplified or more complicated, and that
character is not of the list of kanji (characters used in Japan), so they
replace. Another is that they translated the Chinese meaning (here that
would be the *rolled* thing) into Japanese, with different characters.

> One thing, though, puzzles me about these Japanese sites for Chinese
> teas: some of the teas they list can only be found on Japanese sites.
> If a tea really is Chinese, why wouldn't it be retrievable on some
> Chinese site?


I have seen that many times. They obviously change certain names. And they
don't tell which...at the end the Japanese themselves believe that was the
original Chinese.
I suspect the pin yin of that list has been added later, using the automatic
character change of the computer.

Also, Chinese sites about tea tend to be more basic, give very little
information. Most of them are only made to sell tea. Probably fewer idle
amateurs have access to internet, compared with Japan.
In Japanese, there are many more pages that aim at sharing some knowledge,
then the on-line shop copy from them.... And you know what it's like on
internet. The first guy may have mispelled the name of a tea, 1000 others
copy the mistake and a new tea is invented. In this case, nobody says he/she
has had the tea you've picked.
All these Japanese sites are not selling that tea. They are listing all the
green teas they have ever heard about.

Kuri



  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
niisonge
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites


kuri wrote:
> There is the possibility that some of the characters used in the first
> column are only for the Japanese naming of that tea. One possibility is that
> the Chinese original uses a more simplified or more complicated, and that
> character is not of the list of kanji (characters used in Japan), so they
> replace. Another is that they translated the Chinese meaning (here that
> would be the *rolled* thing) into Japanese, with different characters.



These lists of teas are given in Kanji (Japanese character set); but
Kanji uses a lot of simplified characters, which is the same simplied
form of Chinese used in the PRC. It is perfectly fine Chinese, and
perfectly understandable. No switching of Chinese characters to muddle
the meaning. But the encoding is: charset=shift_jis. So it's in
Japanese encoding. Still, if you input these characters using
simplified Chinese IME, you can find them.


> > One thing, though, puzzles me about these Japanese sites for Chinese
> > teas: some of the teas they list can only be found on Japanese sites.
> > If a tea really is Chinese, why wouldn't it be retrievable on some
> > Chinese site?


I just did a search in Chinese for that Zhou Da Tie Cha, and I found
199 matches. All are Chinese sources. Here is one example:

http://www.china-tea.org/Html/200511593644-1.html


> I suspect the pin yin of that list has been added later, using the automatic
> character change of the computer.


The pinyin transliteration for these teas is mostly correct. But some
of the teas do have mistakes in Pinyin.

> Also, Chinese sites about tea tend to be more basic, give very little
> information. Most of them are only made to sell tea.



That's not really true. There are many many Chinese websites devoted to
tea, to information about tea. Not all are tea vendor websites. In
fact, most of the Chinese tea websites I visit don't sell tea at all. A
lot of Chinese tea websites have very detailed information - and many
many subjects. However, a lot of other tea websites just have garbage
information too. And many tea websites do copy the texts from the other
websites. So what you get is many sites that contain the exact same
information.

I don't really know why you are getting only Japanese websites. Maybe
your CJK IME is not set to Chinese.

  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
kuri
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites


"niisonge" > wrote in message

> These lists of teas are given in Kanji (Japanese character set); but
> Kanji uses a lot of simplified characters, which is the same simplied
> form of Chinese used in the PRC.


The *tie* (tetsu) used in Japanese is not the same *tie* used in the link
you give. It's a different simplification. That could be enough to restrict
the search to Japanese language pages.

> I just did a search in Chinese for that Zhou Da Tie Cha, and I found
> 199 matches. All are Chinese sources.


> http://www.china-tea.org/Html/200511593644-1.html


I've pasted the Chinese writing from this page and I got zero hit with
google. I have not restricted the search to any language (in theory, my
preferences on the browser are French +English+Japanese+Chinese+Chinese).
I need to do a search restricted to simplified Chinese to get something (I
got 1000 matches).

> That's not really true. There are many many Chinese websites devoted to
> tea, to information about tea.


It seems I don't get all the hits. Whatever I search about tea, I get
something 10 000 hits in Japanese and only 1000 in Chinese. Maybe my browser
is not impartial. Well surely it isn't...

> I don't really know why you are getting only Japanese websites. Maybe
> your CJK IME is not set to Chinese.


We didn't use IME in this story. Just copy and paste.

Kuri

  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
niisonge
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

> The *tie* (tetsu) used in Japanese is not the same *tie* used in the link
> you give. It's a different simplification. That could be enough to restrict
> the search to Japanese language pages.


In my browser, both characters show as exactly the same character. Must
be just a configuration problem on your computer. There is a
traditional Chinese form of the "tie" character. But Japanese don't use
that one.

> I've pasted the Chinese writing from this page and I got zero hit with
> google. I have not restricted the search to any language (in theory, my
> preferences on the browser are French +English+Japanese+Chinese+Chinese).
> I need to do a search restricted to simplified Chinese to get something (I
> got 1000 matches).


Google sucks. Forget about google. Why not use a Chinese search engine?
Try Baidu:

http://www.baidu.com

> We didn't use IME in this story. Just copy and paste.

Try downloading NJ Star Communicator:

http://www.njstar.com

You can then input Chinese into your browser. Copy paste just doesn't
work very well, in my experience.

  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
niisonge
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

By the way, if you use Baidu, you should get about 525 search results.

  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
kuri
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites ( UTF8)


"niisonge" > wrote in message

> In my browser, both characters show as exactly the same character.
>Must
> be just a configuration problem on your computer.


There would be a problem if I saw both the same. That I confuse Chinese and
Japanese is one thing, but I hope that my computer is more clever than I.

>There is a
> traditional Chinese form of the "tie" character. But Japanese don't use
> that one.


I don't know what *you* see. (my post is in Unicode UTF 8)
I get :

周打鉄茶  in Japanese
周打铁茶 in Chinese (simplified)

Baidu also finds pages in Japanese if you enter the first line.

>Why not use a Chinese search engine?


Because of my level in Chinese... Maybe next year.

> You can then input Chinese into your browser.


Most times, I can't, but that's not a question of IME. I don't know when
the Chinese character should be different from the Japanese one + I don't
know the pin yin.
Well, there are dictionnaries for that. I should get one. Also, I have a
textbook that lists all the different characters between Japanese and
Chinese, I should study...

Kuri



  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Space Cowboy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

Lewis Perin wrote:
> Warning: nerdy details abound here!
>
> "Space Cowboy" > writes:
> >
> > Lewis Perin wrote:
> >> [...why are there Chinese tea names that appear only in Japanese sites...]

> >
> > The charset=shift_jis of the webpage indicates Japanese. All 2
> > character pairs are used for Japanese font sets. The characters you
> > see are from the Japanese fonts and not Chinese. That character may
> > very well exist in the Chinese font set and vice versa but the charset
> > setting on the HTML page tells where to look. Basically non Roman
> > languages take two characters for representation and a corresponding
> > font set. For example the Cha character in Japanese JIS is 3567 and
> > simplified Chinese GB 1872.

>
> Yes, but it's still the same Unicode code point (33590, or 8336 in
> hex), which is why you get both .cn and .jp web sites if you Google
> for it.


Only if the Chinese or Japanese websites uses Unicode codepoints such
as 8336. There are plenty of Chinese and Japanese sites that use
charset=UTF-8. I'm not sure of the particulars but you can also mix
language sets on a webpage. I use Unicode strings for Google searches.
I could get additional hits if I used JIS or GB strings but I only
track Unicode. On TaoBao I have to use GB strings. Ebay China uses
Unicode. Babelfish doesn't accept Unicode strings.

> > The Glyph representation from both will look the same and the same
> > argument for "zhou da tie cha" in Japanese JIS and Chinese GB where
> > the Glyphs look the same but not the pairs.

>
> But Google, smart though it is, can't see the glyph; it can only see
> the codepoint in whatever encoding is there. I've run these through
> the Unihan database, and they're the Chinese codepoints that
> correspond to the Pinyin on the same line of the page.


The codepoints are Japanese and not Unihan which only accepts Unicode
codepoints. You didn't run any Japanese codepoints from "zhou da tie
cha" and get a valid hit on Unihan. At the minimum you would need
Japanese JIS to Unicode codepoints. If anyone knows of a routine or
website to do this let me know. You also don't plug in strings to
Unihan just the 4 bit hex characters (0-9A-F) which represent each pair
of ascii characters for a total of 16 bits.

> > Google will find computer strings anywhere which in your case just
> > happens to be on web pages with charset indicating JIS. It looks
> > like to me you did a post with Linux which comes with default
> > international language support.

>
> BSD, actually, but I didn't post anything that wasn't ASCII.


I don't have JIS or GB or BIG5 loaded on this computer. The webpage
you mentioned looks like gibberish. I also don't have Unicode loaded
on this computer. Fortunately I can tell Unicode characters because
MSIE indicates a "empty square". If I want to see the Glyph I insert
the Unicode string into a routine which gives the character pair
codepoints which I then use in Unihan. This is the main reason I use
Unicode. I previously posted a Zhongwen backdoor procedure using
Unicode codepoints. I don't know of any Japanese or Chinese sites that
let me do the same thing with their corresponding character pairs to
see a Glyph representation.

> > In Windows you optionally load the Unicode font set called
> > CJK for Chinese, Japanese, Korean which is the international
> > standard to replace national language sets like JIS and GB.

>
> Right, I use that a lot.
>
> Thanks, Jim, for trying, but I don't see how this explains the phenomenon.


It's simple. The codepoints from any charset are different. I think
you understand the character pairs that make up each non Roman language
or the Unicode standard for all languages. Maybe there are some
overlapping codepoints between JIS or GB or BIG5 meaning the same Glyph
character but I haven't found that true for Unicode at least for tea
terms. When you use cut and paste in Windows you keep intact the ascii
character pairs for whatever language.

> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
>
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html


Jim

  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
Lewis Perin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

> "Lewis Perin" > wrote in message
>
> >and for those Japanese
> > people who are interested in Chinese tea, why shouldn't they use
> > Chinese characters to refer to them?[1]

>
> They have no other characters anyway. That'd be too bad to get rid of the
> meaning and keep only a phonetic reading.
>
> > [1]Actually, I just thought of a reason why Japanese people wouldn't
> > want to use Chinese characters: because, when using them in a Japanese
> > context, the phonemes they correspond to wouldn't be the same as in
> > Chinese.

>
> Isn't that the same for the different Chinese dialects ?


That's a good point. I suppose it applies for teas that aren't well
known enough to have recognized names in one's own dialect.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Lewis Perin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

"niisonge" > writes:

> [...]
>
> > > One thing, though, puzzles me about these Japanese sites for Chinese
> > > teas: some of the teas they list can only be found on Japanese sites.
> > > If a tea really is Chinese, why wouldn't it be retrievable on some
> > > Chinese site?

>
> I just did a search in Chinese for that Zhou Da Tie Cha, and I found
> 199 matches. All are Chinese sources. Here is one example:
>
> http://www.china-tea.org/Html/200511593644-1.html


Thanks for finding this. That site's Tie character is different from
the Japanese site's character, despite their being rendered with the
same glyph. The Chinese site's character's Unicode codepoint is
38081, while the Japanese site's is 37444. When I search using the
four characters I get 776 sites from Google.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
Lewis Perin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

"niisonge" > writes:

> [...]
>
> > I've pasted the Chinese writing from this page and I got zero hit with
> > google. I have not restricted the search to any language (in theory, my
> > preferences on the browser are French +English+Japanese+Chinese+Chinese).
> > I need to do a search restricted to simplified Chinese to get something (I
> > got 1000 matches).

>
> Google sucks. Forget about google. Why not use a Chinese search engine?
> Try Baidu:
>
> http://www.baidu.com


Thanks for the pointer. From where I browse, though, Google wins: 776
hits versus 497.

> > We didn't use IME in this story. Just copy and paste.

> Try downloading NJ Star Communicator:
>
> http://www.njstar.com
>
> You can then input Chinese into your browser. Copy paste just doesn't
> work very well, in my experience.


Are you sure you don't mean what that site calls Asian Explorer? The
other products on the site all seem to have only *trial* versions
available for free.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Lewis Perin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

"Space Cowboy" > writes:

> Lewis Perin wrote:
> > Warning: nerdy details abound here!
> >
> > "Space Cowboy" > writes:
> > >
> > > Lewis Perin wrote:
> > >> [...why are there Chinese tea names that appear only in Japanese sites...]
> > >
> > > The charset=shift_jis of the webpage indicates Japanese. All 2
> > > character pairs are used for Japanese font sets. The characters you
> > > see are from the Japanese fonts and not Chinese. That character may
> > > very well exist in the Chinese font set and vice versa but the charset
> > > setting on the HTML page tells where to look. Basically non Roman
> > > languages take two characters for representation and a corresponding
> > > font set. For example the Cha character in Japanese JIS is 3567 and
> > > simplified Chinese GB 1872.

> >
> > Yes, but it's still the same Unicode code point (33590, or 8336 in
> > hex), which is why you get both .cn and .jp web sites if you Google
> > for it.

>
> Only if the Chinese or Japanese websites uses Unicode codepoints such
> as 8336. There are plenty of Chinese and Japanese sites that use
> charset=UTF-8.


But UTF-8 *is* Unicode. More pedantically, it's an encoding of
Unicode. The codepoints exist at the abstract level of Unicode; the
encodings, like UTF-8, mediate between that level and what you see in
your browser. See

http://www.unicode.org/standard/principles.html

for an explanation.

> I'm not sure of the particulars but you can also mix language sets
> on a webpage. I use Unicode strings for Google searches. I could
> get additional hits if I used JIS or GB strings but I only track
> Unicode. On TaoBao I have to use GB strings. Ebay China uses
> Unicode.


JIS, GB, and Big5 are all parts of Unicode.

> Babelfish doesn't accept Unicode strings.


Do you mean Babelfish or Babelcar? If it's the latter, and you want
to try the alpha version that searches on Chinese characters, email me.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html


  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
niisonge
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

You can download Asian Explorer if you want, but basically, it's just a
cheaper version of Internet Explorer, just enhanced for Asian character
sets. The copy/paste function is the most useful part of it.

But what I'm referring to is NJ Star Communicator - it's a CJK IME. The
trial version is fully functional. It's supposedly only a 30 day trial.
But it's still fully functional way beyond the trial date.

If you use NJ Star Communicator, it will automatically display the
characters on the web page in whatever character format you set the
software to load - GB, Big5, EUC, etc. So for me, traditional Chinese
web pages (doesn't matter if encoded in Big5 or unicode or utf-8) all
get loaded into simplified Chinese. If I want to change to traditional
Chinese, then I change language settings.

And inputting characters into a web search using say, GB will also
yield results in Big5, EUC, Chinese UTF simplified, Chinese UTF
traditional, Japanese Shift-JIS, Japanese UTF8, etc. So all of this
encoding stuff is really a moot point if you use a CJK IME.

If you know the Pinyin, you can find the character easily. If you are
unsure of the Pinyin, you can also switch to English to Chinese input.

  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
niisonge
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites ( UTF8)

don't know what *you* see. (my post is in Unicode UTF 8)
I get :

周打鉄茶  in Japanese
周打铁茶 in Chinese (simplified)

I see what you mean there. Changing my settings to Japanese UTF 8 shows
2 different characters. The Japanese "tie" is the simplified character.
And the Chinese "tie" is the traditional character. Switching to
Chinese UTF Traditional also shows the last character as Chinese
traditional. Switching to Chinese UTF Simplified shows both "tie"
characters as Chinese simplified text.

I think if you want to search Chinese PRC websites, you better switch
to Chinese Simplified. I learned that years ago. So I never have any
problems. Of course, it meant I had to learn Chinese simplified
characters along the way.

  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
Space Cowboy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

Lewis Perin wrote:
> "Space Cowboy" > writes:
>
> > Lewis Perin wrote:
> > > Warning: nerdy details abound here!
> > >
> > > "Space Cowboy" > writes:
> > > >
> > > > Lewis Perin wrote:
> > > >> [...why are there Chinese tea names that appear only in Japanese sites...]
> > > >
> > > > The charset=shift_jis of the webpage indicates Japanese. All 2
> > > > character pairs are used for Japanese font sets. The characters you
> > > > see are from the Japanese fonts and not Chinese. That character may
> > > > very well exist in the Chinese font set and vice versa but the charset
> > > > setting on the HTML page tells where to look. Basically non Roman
> > > > languages take two characters for representation and a corresponding
> > > > font set. For example the Cha character in Japanese JIS is 3567 and
> > > > simplified Chinese GB 1872.
> > >
> > > Yes, but it's still the same Unicode code point (33590, or 8336 in
> > > hex), which is why you get both .cn and .jp web sites if you Google
> > > for it.

> >
> > Only if the Chinese or Japanese websites uses Unicode codepoints such
> > as 8336. There are plenty of Chinese and Japanese sites that use
> > charset=UTF-8.

>
> But UTF-8 *is* Unicode. More pedantically, it's an encoding of
> Unicode. The codepoints exist at the abstract level of Unicode; the
> encodings, like UTF-8, mediate between that level and what you see in
> your browser. See
>
> http://www.unicode.org/standard/principles.html
>
> for an explanation.


Agreed UTF-8 is Unicode. Anytime you use the codepoint 8336 it means
tea only if you find websites with charset=UTF-8. As I said before the
tea codepoint for GB2312 is 1872, BIG5 AFF9, JIS 3567. So if the
webpage said charset=JIS you would use 3567 to find the glyph meaning
tea which is the reason you would only see Japanese websites. You
won't see the Japanese websites using charset=UTF-8 or if you did there
is a Unicode glyph for 3567 but not for tea. If I come across a
webpage that says charset=UTF-8 and want to see the glyphs in my
browser I load the MS Unicode CJK codeset. GB2312, BIG5, JIS have
their codepoints and glyphs. Any specific codepoint only has meaning
if you know what charset it uses to look up the glyph. As an aside
I've been checking the Chinese webpages mentioned in this thread by you
and the html says charset=GB2312. You indicate you derived a Unicode
codepoint which I assume came from the webpage contents. I don't see
how. That is only valid if charset=UTF-8.

> > I'm not sure of the particulars but you can also mix language sets
> > on a webpage. I use Unicode strings for Google searches. I could
> > get additional hits if I used JIS or GB strings but I only track
> > Unicode. On TaoBao I have to use GB strings. Ebay China uses
> > Unicode.

>
> JIS, GB, and Big5 are all parts of Unicode.


In what sense? They use different codepoints for language glyphs. You
couldn't tell what codepoint produced the tea glyph if it exist in any
of the language packs. Every scriptable language on Earth is part of
Unicode or that is the intent. There are language sets that only exist
in Unicode because the computer linguists know of some some isolated
language group that hasn't seen a computer but they could communicate
with each other in Unicode when the Internet arrives.

> > Babelfish doesn't accept Unicode strings.

>
> Do you mean Babelfish or Babelcar? If it's the latter, and you want
> to try the alpha version that searches on Chinese characters, email me.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
>
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html


It's AltaVista Babelfish. I would expect at the minimum to use Unicode
strings to search your site. I'm not talking about the derived hex
codepoints. As I said before there is a mapping of the normaly used
codepoints used in the CJK language packs to Unicode. If you could
find the routine, if it exists, then internally you store Unicode while
accepting any external language pack characters in CJK or the default
Unicode. It would be just as easy to display back in the language
packs codepoints.

Jim

PS: One doesn't care about different codepoints in language packs if
you see the expected glyph. It is important because some Japanese
website might be talking about Chinese teas using charset=JIS
codepoints.

  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
Space Cowboy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

I can't believe NJSC will never expire. I have an old computer I load
trial dated software. I just reset the Date if I want to use the
software. Some of the products know about this so put in a semaphore
entry in the Registry. You simply keep track of before and after
software changes to the Registry on the date of load versus the date of
expiration. Or there is some mysterious hidden file entry you need to
find. I'd love to find any routine than allows me to go from CJK
languages packs to Unicode.

Jim

niisonge wrote:
> You can download Asian Explorer if you want, but basically, it's just a
> cheaper version of Internet Explorer, just enhanced for Asian character
> sets. The copy/paste function is the most useful part of it.
>
> But what I'm referring to is NJ Star Communicator - it's a CJK IME. The
> trial version is fully functional. It's supposedly only a 30 day trial.
> But it's still fully functional way beyond the trial date.
>
> If you use NJ Star Communicator, it will automatically display the
> characters on the web page in whatever character format you set the
> software to load - GB, Big5, EUC, etc. So for me, traditional Chinese
> web pages (doesn't matter if encoded in Big5 or unicode or utf-8) all
> get loaded into simplified Chinese. If I want to change to traditional
> Chinese, then I change language settings.
>
> And inputting characters into a web search using say, GB will also
> yield results in Big5, EUC, Chinese UTF simplified, Chinese UTF
> traditional, Japanese Shift-JIS, Japanese UTF8, etc. So all of this
> encoding stuff is really a moot point if you use a CJK IME.
>
> If you know the Pinyin, you can find the character easily. If you are
> unsure of the Pinyin, you can also switch to English to Chinese input.


  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mydnight
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

>Also, Chinese sites about tea tend to be more basic, give very little
>information. Most of them are only made to sell tea. Probably fewer idle
>amateurs have access to internet, compared with Japan.


Na, everyone and their grandmother spends time on the net in China now.
Some people are failing out of school because of QQ, a Chinese chat
program (they stole the code from ICQ). Anyway, it's the Chinese
business style to give as little information about their products as
possible to confuse the consumer. You can not imagine how many "ten
fu" tea shop copies there are around here...



  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
Lewis Perin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

"Space Cowboy" > writes:

> I can't believe NJSC will never expire. I have an old computer I load
> trial dated software. I just reset the Date if I want to use the
> software. Some of the products know about this so put in a semaphore
> entry in the Registry. You simply keep track of before and after
> software changes to the Registry on the date of load versus the date of
> expiration. Or there is some mysterious hidden file entry you need to
> find. I'd love to find any routine than allows me to go from CJK
> languages packs to Unicode.


I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. Do you mean pasting a CJK
character into something that would pull up the appropriate Unihan page?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
Lewis Perin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

"Space Cowboy" > writes:

> Lewis Perin wrote:
> > [...Unicode is Unicode...]

>
> Agreed UTF-8 is Unicode. Anytime you use the codepoint 8336 it means
> tea only if you find websites with charset=UTF-8.


I just Googled for the Chinese character for tea, limiting it to *.jp
sites. The first one that came up (http://www.chanoaji.jp/) has
nothing about UTF-8 in its source, but does have

<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html;charset=Shift_JIS">

> As I said before the tea codepoint for GB2312 is 1872, BIG5 AFF9,
> JIS 3567. So if the webpage said charset=JIS you would use 3567 to
> find the glyph meaning tea which is the reason you would only see
> Japanese websites. You won't see the Japanese websites using
> charset=UTF-8 or if you did there is a Unicode glyph for 3567 but
> not for tea.


Then why is it that, when I copy the tea character from that Japanese
page into Google and search again, the search term is identical? (By
the way, the search term is URL-encoded UTF-8: %E8%8C%B6

> If I come across a webpage that says charset=UTF-8 and want to see
> the glyphs in my browser I load the MS Unicode CJK codeset. GB2312,
> BIG5, JIS have their codepoints and glyphs. Any specific codepoint
> only has meaning if you know what charset it uses to look up the
> glyph. As an aside I've been checking the Chinese webpages
> mentioned in this thread by you and the html says charset=GB2312.
> You indicate you derived a Unicode codepoint which I assume came
> from the webpage contents. I don't see how. That is only valid if
> charset=UTF-8.


I don't have access to Google's source code, but it seems clear to me
that they're not confused by the Big5 vs. GB vs. JIS. They're
probably converting everything to Unicode codepoints before indexing.
>
> > > I'm not sure of the particulars but you can also mix language sets
> > > on a webpage. I use Unicode strings for Google searches. I could
> > > get additional hits if I used JIS or GB strings but I only track
> > > Unicode. On TaoBao I have to use GB strings. Ebay China uses
> > > Unicode.

> >
> > JIS, GB, and Big5 are all parts of Unicode.

>
> In what sense? They use different codepoints for language glyphs.


They use different codepoints for *some* glyphs - but mostly they use
the same codepoints for glyphs they share. The fact that e.g. GB
enumerates the Cha character differently than JIS doesn't affect the
fact that they both use the same Unicode codepoint.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
Space Cowboy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

Something like that. CJK GB,BIG5,JIS,KS national characters to
Unicode. I can go from Unicode to CJK national characters.
Zhongwen,Mandarintools,Babelfish require Unicode. If I know the
Unicode I can use Unihan to look at a graphical representation of the
character without loading charasets including Unicode for MS. I still
don't know how you are getting GB2312 webpages to show you Unicodes.
NJ Star Communicator apparently can do that but it would be overkill
for my limited use.

Jim

Lewis Perin wrote:
> "Space Cowboy" > writes:
>
> > I'd love to find any routine than allows me to go from CJK
> > languages packs to Unicode.

>
> I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. Do you mean pasting a CJK
> character into something that would pull up the appropriate Unihan page?
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
>
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html


  #24 (permalink)   Report Post  
Lewis Perin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

"Space Cowboy" > writes:

>
> Lewis Perin wrote:
> > "Space Cowboy" > writes:
> >
> > > I'd love to find any routine than allows me to go from CJK
> > > languages packs to Unicode.

> >
> > I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. Do you mean pasting a CJK
> > character into something that would pull up the appropriate Unihan page?
> >

> Something like that.


Try this:

www.panix.com/~perin/getunihan.html

You need Javascript, but I promise it won't do anything evil.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
  #25 (permalink)   Report Post  
Space Cowboy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

At this point I think we are talking past each other. For example I
want to take the GB codepoint 1872 and translate it into Unicode
codepoint 8336. Agreed the different codepoints for tea in the CJK
language packs will point to 8336 which is UTF-16 representation
consistent with the language pairs for non Roman language packs. I
know Google will take my Unicode strings and return matches it finds in
websites coded in charset other than UTF. At that point I can't cut
and paste any characters from those webpages into
Babelfish,MandarinTools,Zhongwen because they're not Unicode. From
what I understand NJ Star Communicator for example will flip
charset=GB2312 and charset=UTF-8. If I find anything pertinent on
language pack codepoints to Unicode codepoints I'll report back. I can
go from Unicode codepoints to language packs codepoints.

Jim

Lewis Perin wrote:
> > As I said before the tea codepoint for GB2312 is 1872, BIG5 AFF9,
> > JIS 3567. So if the webpage said charset=JIS you would use 3567 to
> > find the glyph meaning tea which is the reason you would only see
> > Japanese websites. You won't see the Japanese websites using
> > charset=UTF-8 or if you did there is a Unicode glyph for 3567 but
> > not for tea.

>
> Then why is it that, when I copy the tea character from that Japanese
> page into Google and search again, the search term is identical? (By
> the way, the search term is URL-encoded UTF-8: %E8%8C%B6
>
> > If I come across a webpage that says charset=UTF-8 and want to see
> > the glyphs in my browser I load the MS Unicode CJK codeset. GB2312,
> > BIG5, JIS have their codepoints and glyphs. Any specific codepoint
> > only has meaning if you know what charset it uses to look up the
> > glyph. As an aside I've been checking the Chinese webpages
> > mentioned in this thread by you and the html says charset=GB2312.
> > You indicate you derived a Unicode codepoint which I assume came
> > from the webpage contents. I don't see how. That is only valid if
> > charset=UTF-8.

>
> I don't have access to Google's source code, but it seems clear to me
> that they're not confused by the Big5 vs. GB vs. JIS. They're
> probably converting everything to Unicode codepoints before indexing.
> >
> > > > I'm not sure of the particulars but you can also mix language sets
> > > > on a webpage. I use Unicode strings for Google searches. I could
> > > > get additional hits if I used JIS or GB strings but I only track
> > > > Unicode. On TaoBao I have to use GB strings. Ebay China uses
> > > > Unicode.
> > >
> > > JIS, GB, and Big5 are all parts of Unicode.

> >
> > In what sense? They use different codepoints for language glyphs.

>
> They use different codepoints for *some* glyphs - but mostly they use
> the same codepoints for glyphs they share. The fact that e.g. GB
> enumerates the Cha character differently than JIS doesn't affect the
> fact that they both use the same Unicode codepoint.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
>
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html




  #26 (permalink)   Report Post  
Space Cowboy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

I have a routine that does the same thing offline. It takes Unicode
strings, determines their hex value, and calls Unihan. I was hoping it
would take CJK language pack strings for example paste in the GB or JIS
codepoint character for tea. There has to be an easy way of going from
language packs codepoints to Unicode codepoints.

Jim

Lewis Perin wrote:
> "Space Cowboy" > writes:
>
> >
> > Lewis Perin wrote:
> > > "Space Cowboy" > writes:
> > >
> > > > I'd love to find any routine than allows me to go from CJK
> > > > languages packs to Unicode.
> > >
> > > I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. Do you mean pasting a CJK
> > > character into something that would pull up the appropriate Unihan page?
> > >

> > Something like that.

>
> Try this:
>
> www.panix.com/~perin/getunihan.html
>
> You need Javascript, but I promise it won't do anything evil.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
>
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html


  #27 (permalink)   Report Post  
Lewis Perin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

"Space Cowboy" > writes:
>
> Lewis Perin wrote:
> > "Space Cowboy" > writes:
> >
> > >
> > > Lewis Perin wrote:
> > > > "Space Cowboy" > writes:
> > > >
> > > > > I'd love to find any routine than allows me to go from CJK
> > > > > languages packs to Unicode.
> > > >
> > > > I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. Do you mean pasting
> > > > a CJK character into something that would pull up the
> > > > appropriate Unihan page?
> > > >
> > > Something like that.

> >
> > Try this:
> >
> > www.panix.com/~perin/getunihan.html
> >
> > You need Javascript, but I promise it won't do anything evil.
> >

> I have a routine that does the same thing offline. It takes Unicode
> strings, determines their hex value, and calls Unihan. I was hoping it
> would take CJK language pack strings for example paste in the GB or JIS
> codepoint character for tea. There has to be an easy way of going from
> language packs codepoints to Unicode codepoints.


Sorry, I really don't know what you mean by a "CJK language pack
string". The page I cited lets you paste a CJK character from a
Chinese website and get back the corresponding Unihan page.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
  #28 (permalink)   Report Post  
niisonge
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

Just download NJ Star Communicator, and you can convert into any of 21
options. It's simple. And easy to use. But beware, some characters
don't convert properly. It's a machine conversion. And it doesn't
replace human conversion. For example, this software in GB mode only
supports about 7 000 characters - or something like that. But in Big5
mode, it supports 15 000 characters. So there are going to be many
characters, that don't get converted, or are converted into another
character, rendering the meaning of the text useless.

And 15 000 is not a lot of characters. For common, every day Chinese
language, it's fine. But for some scholarly or artistic work, I often
can't find the character I am looking for in my software - because it's
not in there. When it comes to Chinese, computers are still way behind,
and woefully inadequate. But somehow, we still get by. Amazing isn't
it? Chinese fonts are another big beef of mine. But anyway, save that
for later.

  #29 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

On 23 Oct 2005 11:39:48 -0400, Lewis Perin > wrote:

>In researching information for Babelcarp's database, I often run Web
>searches using Chinese characters. Typically you find vastly more
>hits (mainly mainland Chinese sites) this way than if you use the
>Pinyin name for a tea.
>
>I've noticed often that a lot of hits will come from Japanese web
>sites. This isn't too surprising when you think about it: Japanese is
>written using (among other things) Chinese characters; why shouldn't
>Japanese people be interested in Chinese tea; and for those Japanese
>people who are interested in Chinese tea, why shouldn't they use
>Chinese characters to refer to them?[1]
>
>One thing, though, puzzles me about these Japanese sites for Chinese
>teas: some of the teas they list can only be found on Japanese sites.
>If a tea really is Chinese, why wouldn't it be retrievable on some
>Chinese site? Here's an example. (This won't work, of course, if
>your Web browser has no access to Chinese characters.) On the site
>
> http://chinese-tea.info/03g/shurui.html
>
>scroll down to the Jiangxi teas, where you'll find a tea whose Pinyin
>name (in the right-hand column) is zhou da tie cha. Search for it
>using the Chinese characters in the left-hand column. The results
>will be exclusively Japanese sites.
>
>Anyone know what's going on here? Kuri?
>
>/Lew
>---
>Lew Perin / http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
>[1]Actually, I just thought of a reason why Japanese people wouldn't
>want to use Chinese characters: because, when using them in a Japanese
>context, the phonemes they correspond to wouldn't be the same as in
>Chinese.



sort of like searching for references to french fries on a french web
site?
  #30 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to rec.food.drink.tea
Space Cowboy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

Here is an interesting site for GB2312 to UNICODE conversion
http://www.herongyang.com/gb2312/ I found yesterday. As I previously
suspected it is a mapping and not a mathematical routine even though
the table was generated by a Java program with a bunch of but-ifs. I
didn't see anything right off the bat that would prevent Javascript
from doing the same thing mathematically as Java. The table says B2E8
is the GB value for the Unicode value 8336 and not 1872 as mentioned in
Unihan. I can tell I'm going to have some fun. Also if I had DOTNET
loaded then there is a simple routine to indicate the language pack
such as GB2312 and give the corresponding Unicode value. The
charCodeAt routine in Javascript is just a Unicode character to Unicode
hex representation. The two byte hexview of a Unicode character is not
the same as the result of the charCodeAt conversion. Some things are
flipped around in the way the Unicode char is stored on disk. In a
file the Unicode tea character is stored as 36383. Notepad will store
the Unicode tea character as four bytes with the first two characters
high order FFFE.

Jim

Lewis Perin wrote:
> "Space Cowboy" > writes:
> >
> > Lewis Perin wrote:
> > > Try this:
> > >
> > > www.panix.com/~perin/getunihan.html
> > >
> > > You need Javascript, but I promise it won't do anything evil.
> > >

> > I have a routine that does the same thing offline. It takes Unicode
> > strings, determines their hex value, and calls Unihan. I was hoping it
> > would take CJK language pack strings for example paste in the GB or JIS
> > codepoint character for tea. There has to be an easy way of going from
> > language packs codepoints to Unicode codepoints.

>
> Sorry, I really don't know what you mean by a "CJK language pack
> string". The page I cited lets you paste a CJK character from a
> Chinese website and get back the corresponding Unihan page.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
>
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html




  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to rec.food.drink.tea
Space Cowboy
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

You said before it really doesn't expire. What do you mean by that?
Most of the time you'll lose some functions such as printing or limited
file size. If I stay with Unicode I am fine for tea terms but
occasionally I would like using native language packs.

Thanks,
Jim

niisonge wrote:
> Just download NJ Star Communicator, and you can convert into any of 21
> options. It's simple. And easy to use. But beware, some characters
> don't convert properly. It's a machine conversion. And it doesn't
> replace human conversion. For example, this software in GB mode only
> supports about 7 000 characters - or something like that. But in Big5
> mode, it supports 15 000 characters. So there are going to be many
> characters, that don't get converted, or are converted into another
> character, rendering the meaning of the text useless.
>
> And 15 000 is not a lot of characters. For common, every day Chinese
> language, it's fine. But for some scholarly or artistic work, I often
> can't find the character I am looking for in my software - because it's
> not in there. When it comes to Chinese, computers are still way behind,
> and woefully inadequate. But somehow, we still get by. Amazing isn't
> it? Chinese fonts are another big beef of mine. But anyway, save that
> for later.


  #32 (permalink)   Report Post  
Posted to rec.food.drink.tea
niisonge
 
Posts: n/a
Default Japanese Chinese tea web sites

Space Cowboy wrote:
> You said before it really doesn't expire. What do you mean by that?
> Most of the time you'll lose some functions such as printing or limited
> file size. If I stay with Unicode I am fine for tea terms but
> occasionally I would like using native language packs.



What I mean by doesn't expire, is that for the first 30 days, you can
use the software fine. After 30 days, you get a splash screen that
reminds you to buy the software. It counts down 1 second for however
many days you use it beyond the 30 days. Then, after 50 days, the
screen kind of stays there permanently. But it's movable. So you can
move it right off the desktop, out of your way. Then, you can still use
the software without being bothered by that screen. Just don't click "I
agree" after the 50 day period.

Some other weird things happen too, but the software is still fully
functional.

The only thing the donwload version doesn't include are Chinese fonts.
But that doesn't matter if you donwnload the Asian Languages pack for
MS Office. You can use the MS Office fonts instead - like Simsun,
Mingliu, etc. But they're not very good fonts - just basic ones.

I have used this software for over a year without problems. It has a
lot of features that Asiansuite doesn't have.

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