Seems that some authorities recommend rather hotter water for white than for
green tea, despite similarities in their processing. I've been drinking a
lot of silver buds/needles/tips Pu-er lately, and it does seem to take well
to very hot water. And I brew uncooked Pu-er with much cooler water to avoid
a cooked-vegetable taste.

It occurred to me that perhaps the real difference is that whatever gives
that vegetal taste may be absent in white teas, which therefore can tolerate
higher temperatures. A subtle distinction, perhaps, but interesting in its
implications.

Any thoughts?

-DM

Dog Ma wrote:

> Seems that some authorities recommend rather hotter water for white than
> for
> green tea, despite similarities in their processing. I've been drinking a
> lot of silver buds/needles/tips Pu-er lately, and it does seem to take
> well
> to very hot water. And I brew uncooked Pu-er with much cooler water to
> avoid
> a cooked-vegetable taste.
>
> It occurred to me that perhaps the real difference is that whatever gives
> that vegetal taste may be absent in white teas, which therefore can
> tolerate
> higher temperatures. A subtle distinction, perhaps, but interesting in its
> implications.
>
> Any thoughts?

I do prefer cooler water (65-70 C) to white teas, because in my experience
boiling water (which I have tried because of the recommendation of some
authorities, too) kills the subtler nuances in these teas.

I do also use cooler water to uncooked puerhs, but for avoiding the
astringency. Even when I have used boiling water, I have never experienced
any "cooked-vegetable" taste.

Just my 2 cents.

Gyorgy

Gyorgy 9/14/05


> Dog Ma wrote:
>
>> Seems that some authorities recommend rather hotter water for white than
>> for green tea, despite similarities in their processing. I've been drinking a
>> lot of silver buds/needles/tips Pu-er lately, and it does seem to take
>> well to very hot water. And I brew uncooked Pu-er with much cooler water to
>> avoid a cooked-vegetable taste.
>>
>> It occurred to me that perhaps the real difference is that whatever gives
>> that vegetal taste may be absent in white teas, which therefore can
>> tolerate higher temperatures. A subtle distinction, perhaps, but interesting
in its implications.
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>
> I do prefer cooler water (65-70 C) to white teas, because in my experience
> boiling water (which I have tried because of the recommendation of some
> authorities, too) kills the subtler nuances in these teas.

Yes, I completely agree with Gyorgy, and have had the same basic experience.
Nonetheless, if you use really hot water to brew your silver needles (white
tea buds), and you perceive little or no difference between that and the
results of a cooler brew, your tea is probably sans subtler nuances, and
thus the question is academic.
>
> I do also use cooler water to uncooked puerhs, but for avoiding the
> astringency. Even when I have used boiling water, I have never experienced
> any "cooked-vegetable" taste.

What I do experience when using water too hot for a young green Pu'erh is a
harshness and emphasis on the cigar ash thing. The fruits, meadows, musty
flowers, and other nice attributes of such a tea reveal at the lower
temperatures. That's my experience anyway.
>
> Just my 2 cents.

And worth every penny.

Michael

"samarkand" > writes:

> White Tea and Pu'er silver tips are processed differently.

Meaning, white tea might be more oxidized but even new Puerh buds
would be somewhat microbially fermented?

> If you have Bai Mudan and Silver Needles, the suggestion is usually with
> hotter water, while cooler water for the rest.

Is your reason for this that buds require hotter temperatures?

Recently I've been getting the best results for bud-only whites and
Puerhs with fairly hot (170-180F) water. I know Michael says there
are nuances in a really good Yinzhen that hot water destroys, but
maybe I haven't had access to a white tea that good for a while.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Lewis 9/14/05

> "samarkand" > writes:
>
>> White Tea and Pu'er silver tips are processed differently.
>
> Meaning, white tea might be more oxidized but even new Puerh buds
> would be somewhat microbially fermented?
>
>> If you have Bai Mudan and Silver Needles, the suggestion is usually with
>> hotter water, while cooler water for the rest.
>
> Is your reason for this that buds require hotter temperatures?
>
> Recently I've been getting the best results for bud-only whites and
> Puerhs with fairly hot (170-180F) water. I know Michael says there
> are nuances in a really good Yinzhen that hot water destroys, but
> maybe I haven't had access to a white tea that good for a while.
>
> /Lew


Lew,

I'm thinking of our sojourns to IPOT more than anything else. I know the
Yin Zhen was not your/our favorite, but the nuances were clearly there. MHO.

Michael

Michael Plant > writes:

> Lewis 9/14/05
>
> > [...]
> >
> > Recently I've been getting the best results for bud-only whites and
> > Puerhs with fairly hot (170-180F) water. I know Michael says there
> > are nuances in a really good Yinzhen that hot water destroys, but
> > maybe I haven't had access to a white tea that good for a while.
>
> I'm thinking of our sojourns to IPOT more than anything else. I
> know the Yin Zhen was not your/our favorite, but the nuances were
> clearly there. MHO.

Honestly, I can't remember that. I've only started to love white tea
in the last year or so, so maybe I was just too insensitive a clod to
appreciate their Yinzhen at the time.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Lewis 9/14/05

> Michael Plant > writes:
>
>> Lewis 9/14/05
>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Recently I've been getting the best results for bud-only whites and
>>> Puerhs with fairly hot (170-180F) water. I know Michael says there
>>> are nuances in a really good Yinzhen that hot water destroys, but
>>> maybe I haven't had access to a white tea that good for a while.
>>
>> I'm thinking of our sojourns to IPOT more than anything else. I
>> know the Yin Zhen was not your/our favorite, but the nuances were
>> clearly there. MHO.
>
> Honestly, I can't remember that. I've only started to love white tea
> in the last year or so, so maybe I was just too insensitive a clod to
> appreciate their Yinzhen at the time.
>
> /Lew


Had perhaps more to do with the fact that it was the first offering among
many, and was easily forgotten therefore. BTW, it turned out to be Thompson,
not Sullivan. Sullivan sports three Tibet shops in a row. It was the same
shop I remembered from over 30 years ago.

Those of you who aren't following, don't try. This is all in code.

Michael

Michael Plant wrote:

> What I do experience when using water too hot for a young green Pu'erh is
> a
> harshness and emphasis on the cigar ash thing.

True, I have completely forgotten that last thing. When I tried my first
green puerhs, I found them all being too smoky for my taste, and I was
almost going to quit the whole experiment. Fortunately I have read Mike's
posts about the lower temperatures, and now I can taste a wealth of nuances,
flowers and fruits in my young puerhs.

[samarkand]
> White Tea and Pu'er silver tips are processed differently.
>
> If you have Bai Mudan and Silver Needles, the suggestion is usually with
> hotter water, while cooler water for the rest.

Sorry, posted after single-mindedly drinking Puer for a month or two. And
haven't had a decent "regular" white tea for a long time. It was to Silver
Needles Puer that I referred.

Within that, I might have been more clear. I prefer silver needles brewed at
very moderate temperatures. Today at work, for example, I had five steeps of
101Tea organic Silver Needles starting at 100F (barely warm) and ending at
120F. All were excellent. Any hotter and the (to me) light citrus notes
disappear. But it's still pretty good (though entirely different) brewed in
boiling water. Anything greener and that young, by comparison, tastes to me
like overcooked spinach. So I'm speculating that silver needles can tolerate
hot water because whatever turns into the cooked-spinach taste is absent.

That's probably no clearer, but what the heck.

-DM

Gyorgy 9/14/05


> Michael Plant wrote:
>
>> What I do experience when using water too hot for a young green Pu'erh is
>> a
>> harshness and emphasis on the cigar ash thing.
>
> True, I have completely forgotten that last thing. When I tried my first
> green puerhs, I found them all being too smoky for my taste, and I was
> almost going to quit the whole experiment. Fortunately I have read Mike's
> posts about the lower temperatures, and now I can taste a wealth of nuances,
> flowers and fruits in my young puerhs.

Ah, happy news. Mike's posts certainly are a gold mine of good information.
Cut to his site and see the rest of the story.

Michael
>
>

Dog Ma /14/05
reply w/o spam

> [samarkand]
>> White Tea and Pu'er silver tips are processed differently.
>>
>> If you have Bai Mudan and Silver Needles, the suggestion is usually with
>> hotter water, while cooler water for the rest.
>
> Sorry, posted after single-mindedly drinking Puer for a month or two. And
> haven't had a decent "regular" white tea for a long time. It was to Silver
> Needles Puer that I referred.
>
> Within that, I might have been more clear. I prefer silver needles brewed at
> very moderate temperatures. Today at work, for example, I had five steeps of
> 101Tea organic Silver Needles starting at 100F (barely warm) and ending at
> 120F. All were excellent. Any hotter and the (to me) light citrus notes
> disappear. But it's still pretty good (though entirely different) brewed in
> boiling water. Anything greener and that young, by comparison, tastes to me
> like overcooked spinach. So I'm speculating that silver needles can tolerate
> hot water because whatever turns into the cooked-spinach taste is absent.
>
> That's probably no clearer, but what the heck.
>
> -DM
>
>
Dog,

Actually, quite clear. A true white tea you like at a super-low temp. I have
heard it said that if the tea changes the water so slightly that only the
aftertaste suggests that the tea was there, it's a well prepared white of
good quality. I've had it served from that perspective -- in that way -- and
it is nice, although not the brew for when you're busy. Gotta pay attention.
Single mindedness (which isn't easy when you're double headed), you know.

Michael

"Dog Ma 1" (reply w/o spam)> writes:

> [samarkand]
> > White Tea and Pu'er silver tips are processed differently.
> >
> > If you have Bai Mudan and Silver Needles, the suggestion is usually with
> > hotter water, while cooler water for the rest.
>
> Sorry, posted after single-mindedly drinking Puer for a month or two. And
> haven't had a decent "regular" white tea for a long time. It was to Silver
> Needles Puer that I referred.
>
> Within that, I might have been more clear. I prefer silver needles brewed at
> very moderate temperatures. Today at work, for example, I had five steeps of
> 101Tea organic Silver Needles starting at 100F (barely warm) and ending at
> 120F. All were excellent. Any hotter and the (to me) light citrus notes
> disappear.

Wow. How much time do you give it at 100 quaint degrees?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

[Lewis Perin]
> > I prefer silver needles brewed at
> > very moderate temperatures. Today at work, for example, I had five
steeps of
> > 101Tea organic Silver Needles starting at 100F (barely warm) and ending
at
> > 120F. All were excellent. Any hotter and the (to me) light citrus notes
> > disappear.
>
> Wow. How much time do you give it at 100 quaint degrees?

About six minutes, probably 3g of tea in 4 oz water. Fifth steep was about a
minute, and was very good but definitely starting to lose the delicate high
notes. I left the wet leaves in the pot overnight, and the next morning, it
all smelled wonderful - all the floral/fruit notes back again. I'd have
brewed it up a few more times, but was hot to try some ITC WuYi. Latter
turned out to be very over-roasted by my standards, though a second steep
was a lot better balanced.

-DM