Tea (rec.drink.tea) Discussion relating to tea, the world's second most consumed beverage (after water), made by infusing or boiling the leaves of the tea plant (C. sinensis or close relatives) in water.

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  #41 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Petro
 
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>Mike,
>
>With due respect to you and others, Jim does have legal rights regarding the
>use of the words "Rosetta Stone" on usenet in a tea context based in part on
>his first use of the term in this regard. You guys misunderstand most of
>what he writes because you do not read between the lines. A bit of tolerance
>in his direction would be appeciated by what has become the silent majority
>here for which I hopefully speak. Hope this helps.
>
>Michael



Hehehe, yes, the VERY silent majority.......

Actually its like shooting fish in a barrel isn't it. Besides in the
court of public opinion it is clear who has won this case. My motives
and character have spoken for themselves, while he sticks his foot in
mouth every time he attacks. I steadfastly refuse to allow him to run
me off like he did all the others and somebody really does need to
stand up to the bully/troll.

BTW, if he has Legal Rights to the Rosetta Stone metaphor then I stand
humbly corrected and will forever bow before his presence..... NOT!

Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
"In this work, when it shall be found that much is omitted, let it not be forgotten that much likewise is performed."
Samuel Johnson, 1775, upon finishing his dictionary.
  #42 (permalink)   Report Post  
Space Cowboy
 
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Every time you talk about a Rosetta timeline you keep adding more
contraditions. You've mentioned three so far public domain, awol, and
serendipity. Now your making up another excuse I'll call anachronism.
The first time we had a run in is when you wanted us to critique your
website. I told you this is the Usenet and not the WWW. (You still
haven't explained why you don't think that matters besides simply
postings URLs to drum up traffic for your website. If you need to find
something on the Internet you use Google. You don't need to litter
Usenet with links. Those days are long gone). I could go back and
find you responding to my posts directly or indirectly prior to you
requesting feedback on your site. I haven't checked that perse but I
remember I could almost see the expression on your face when I told you
to take your commercial website and get lost. It was like your mom
sitting you in the corner. It wasn't a stranger asking you to go for a
ride. Only then you started to hide behind Plonking and Killfiles
which you selectively choose to invoke. (For the rest of you who claim
I'm in your killfile let's see you back it up by not continously saying
I'm in your killfile). I hope people are paying attention to your
argument about commercial sites being allowed. Why don't you be honest
with us and make that argument about your running infomercial. If you
want to publish information using video rerouting to defeat copyright
protect you'll need my permission. But that hasn't stopped you before.
I preempted any EtTu charges by declaring Ebay a flea market in a
previous post. I'm sure I can find more websites that sell puerh with
Google than you list. You're probably using Google to come up with a
partial list without giving credit. Previously you mentioned they
had some stamp of approval and now you're making it sound like
potpourri. You still avoid the messy questions I've raised about
vendors who overcharge and misrepresent puerh. I'm the only one
exposing fraud not you. Your likewise claims are empty sales rhetoric.
I'd probably find a lot more under your recommended commercial links
probably by the same people you claim have approved your site. I only
hoard tea. You're the tea pimp looking for johns and janes. To bring
others uptodate I've killfiled this website. I don't make empty
threats. You have a HOSTS file on Unix and Windows. You simply enter
the dummy address of 127.0.0.1 for the website. I just visited it once
to make sure I was being plagiarize through a direct link provided by
the webmaster which was obvious my the link name. The website was a
commercial business was from day one. It by a legal definition is an
infomercial where you trust someone to represent a product. No
explicit claims can be made only anecdotal presentation. So if I buy
the product and it doesn't work I can't sue you for fraud. You don't
have to be that blind to know when you're in a room with an elephant.
Anything else I know about the site is said here by others in
particular by the webmaster. This guy will also link IP addresses of
his web traffic to the IP addresses of newsgroup posters claiming
popularity then go looking for your other posts in other groups. I
live by the Las Vegas motto. He also seems to fixated on where you buy
your puer. This guy simply doesn't respect your privacy. When you get
your ass in trouble you want the meaniest, nastiest, and if deep
pockets smartest lawyers like Cockran and Mesereau you can find. In
our metro area you'll need one to sue the state so you can sell your
house which lies in a proposed correidor for state highway development.
No eminent domain just an idea in the planning stage being tossed
around by state agencies probably ten years to the first use of eminent
domain if ever. You'll need one to sue the water district over
existing water rights to replace an existing well. They claim when
your well dries up so does your water rights. They illegally sold your
water rights to a big developer so he could put in a subdivision using
underground water. The next time you're on trial make sure your lawyer
selects jurors who have an antimedia bias. That advice was free. I've
explained my style of posting in the past. I think it interesting you
consider it coy. Sometimes I like to frame it as a murder mystery.
You know the ending but the story is interesting.

Jim

Mike Petro wrote:
> Space Cowboy wrote:
> > I just brought the new guy up to speed so your accusation of
> > intolerance is in context. I first used the term Rosetta stone here
> > while you were an active poster. You change that story every time.

>
> As I said Jim, lame, and rather trollish even. I say Troll because you
> argue anything I have to say, right/left, black/white, even if I said
> the the sun was shining you would argue it. I havent changed my stance
> a bit, you simply change the way you twist the facts.
>
> BTW, just because I was an active poster does NOT mean that I read your
> post, I have been known to ignore and otherwise killfile many of your
> posts due to your high S/N ratio and Ad Hominem attacks.
>
>
> > You're worse than Sasha fishing in other
> > groups for what people said but I stand by that statement because the
> > Supreme Court said I could do it for personal use and not because some
> > vendor tried to keep honest people honest.

>
> So its okay for you to publicly teach people how to defeat copy
> protection but its not ok for me to use the word "Rosetta"? Bit of a
> double standard if you ask me. Your just peeved because you got caught.
>
> > You say public service I
> > say infomercial with commercial links otherwise why not more links that
> > sells puerh?

>
> Umm Jim, to my knowledge, I have the most complete list of vendors who
> sell puerh that exisits in the English language. Show me a more
> complete list and I will stand corrected but I think you are talking
> out of your tail again.
>
> > If you impose the criteria you're selling something. The
> > Charter taken as a whole prohibits commercial posting.

>
> Show me where Jim, in what twisted logic do you get that from, please
> tell me. I quoted the actual charter and I dont see it in there
> anywhere! Since I am not commercial your statement is groundless
> anyway.
>
>
> > We have a
> > hypocrite that accused TeaTalk of using the newsgroup for commercial
> > gain.

>
> Once again you twist the facts, I got on their case for portraying that
> this group was their own property, it was misleading at best. I dont
> care if they linked to it, just portray it for what it is, they tried
> to portray it as being theirs.
>
> If you want to talk about being a hypocrite how about the fact that you
> are now doing the EXACT same thing you criticized me for doing last
> year when you said I should never buy tea off of ebay or the internet.
> Look where you are buying your tea now!
>
> <idiotic drivel sniped>
>
> > I even changed puer sellers on Ebay. Now you can take a guess
> > and blabbermouth who you think that is. You're batting 50/50.

>
> Thats my point, I share information with others, you horde it..... If
> you were truly intersted in contributing to the group you wouldnt be so
> damn coy about everything.
>
> Mike
> www.pu-erh.net


  #43 (permalink)   Report Post  
Space Cowboy
 
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Thanks. I can handle this guy with one arm tied behind my back. I'm
bringing his newly recruited dodgeball refugees up to speed. Where I
come from that is considered a joke and not intolerance. If I rant
about someone you can consider that a compliment that I even take the
time. No wonder Dennis Miller bombed on CNBC. I didn't like his
politics but I liked his rants and the scretching "one more thing".
I'm more concerned about Ellie ending up in research laboratory.

Jim

Michael Plant wrote:
....I delete me...
....I waste him...

> Space 9/7/05
>
> With due respect to you and others, Jim does have legal rights regarding the
> use of the words "Rosetta Stone" on usenet in a tea context based in part on
> his first use of the term in this regard. You guys misunderstand most of
> what he writes because you do not read between the lines. A bit of tolerance
> in his direction would be appeciated by what has become the silent majority
> here for which I hopefully speak. Hope this helps.
>
> Michael


  #44 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Petro
 
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Spaced Out Cowboy wrote:
>Every time you talk bout a Rosetta timeline you keep adding more

contraditions....

<the rest of the twisted, libelous, ravings of a Troll have been
sniped>

The only contradictions are in your own perverse sense of the truth Jim
!

Mike

  #45 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Petro
 
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Space Cowboy wrote:

> If I rant
> about someone you can consider that a compliment that I even take the
> time.


Please! NO more compliments......

Mike



  #46 (permalink)   Report Post  
Nico
 
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>Mike,

>With due respect to you and others, Jim does have legal rights regarding the
>use of the words "Rosetta Stone" on usenet in a tea context based in part on
>his first use of the term in this regard. You guys misunderstand most of
>what he writes because you do not read between the lines. A bit of tolerance
>in his direction would be appeciated by what has become the silent majority
>here for which I hopefully speak. Hope this helps.


>Michael


What I, for one, object to is much more the style than than the
substance of Jim's post. Also, where his ire only directed at Mike I'd
be much more inclined to stay out of it. But Jim has directed attacks
against me for no good reason, and I therefor have reason to believe
that he has and will direct attacks against other people.

If Jim has a just complaint against Mike, than he certainly has the
right to voice it. But, first of all, this is not the place to do it,
and, second, I and others are not able to discern what he's talking
about. Now, I'm sure there is something there to be understood, but I
don't think it's my obligation to decrypt barely coherent prose. If you
want to be understood, you should express yourself clearly. It is not
cool to be incoherent, however much postmodern culture might suggest it
is.

I want to be fair, I really do. But Jim has engaged to rather low ad
hominem attacks against me and others, and being tolerant does not mean
being passive. I have refrained from such ad hominem attacks, but I
will not stand by as people are bullied.

Once again, if Jim has a case, he and Mike can work it out on their
own. I don't see any need to use this space as a platform for it. If
his mission is to garner sympathy, then he is doing a poor job indeed.

If Jim or someone else would indulge my curiousity, I would like to
know what gives Jim the right on the use of this term. I have to claim
ignorance on these matters, but it seems to me simply using a term does
not give you legal rights over it. But I'll suspend my judgement.

What I would like it a touch more lucidity and civility.

The real point, however, is that Jim is going WAY beyond his complaint
with Mike.

And again, writing cryptically to sound intelligent is at best
incredibly clicheed and at worst an attempt to conceal ones
intellectual mediocrity. It may have been interesting circa 1900. But
it is never justified when you actually want to make a point.

As always, I invite critical responces.

Nico

  #47 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Petro
 
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> And again, writing cryptically to sound intelligent is at best
> incredibly clicheed and at worst an attempt to conceal ones
> intellectual mediocrity.


Its an old legal trick, if you cant dazzle them with your brilliance,
then baffle them with your BS.

Mike

  #48 (permalink)   Report Post  
Nico
 
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>I told you this is the Usenet and not the WWW.

Can someone actually explain why this entails that no one can link to
other sites? Jim, you present this as if it stood for itself. Look, I
read the charter, and it simply does not ban commercial posting
outright. The only thing it says is this:

>This newsgroup should NOT be used for advertising herbal
>tea products


I think the idea here is that the topic of RFDT should stick to tea
proper, aka "camelia sinensis and its close relatives".

And again, who are you to decide who has a right to post what? I want
an explicit answer to that.

If I and so many others are out of line in linking to sites, then I
challenge everyone who thinks so to tell me with some kind of evidence.
So far, all I've seen is Jim's pseudo-argument. I will continue
bringing up this point so long as Jim uses this point as a pretext to
bully people and no one can elucidate the point.

Nico

  #49 (permalink)   Report Post  
Marlene Wood
 
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.. A bit of tolerance
>>in his direction would be appeciated by what has become the silent
>>majority
>>here for which I hopefully speak. Hope this helps.
>>
>>Michael

>
>
> Hehehe, yes, the VERY silent majority.......
>

This member of the silent whatever is very solidly on Mike's side, but would
like to see Mike just plain ignore Jim. It's like arguing with a brick wall
Mike.
Marlene


  #50 (permalink)   Report Post  
Marlene Wood
 
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> Every time you talk about a Rosetta timeline you keep adding more
> contraditions. You've mentioned three so far public domain, awol, and
> serendipity.


Jim, who says it can't be all three? Frankly I belive it IS public domain,
he didn't know you had used it 'first', and he did come up with the idea to
use that term independantly of you because of the first two reasons.




  #51 (permalink)   Report Post  
Nico
 
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>This member of the silent whatever is very solidly on Mike's side, but would
>like to see Mike just plain ignore Jim. It's like arguing with a brick wall
>Mike.
>Marlene


Having just now done some searching into the recent history of this
debate, I'm now inclined to agree with you.

Mike, I don't think you have to worry about this guy discrediting you.
It it patently obivious to me that Jim is being irrational, and I'm
beginning to realize that MANY other people have made this observation.
As far as I can tell, Jim's two big accusations against you, your
posted URLs and your use of the Rosetta name, seem completely
unfounded, and most people who bother to say anything seem to agree.

Unless anyone can actually offer new evidence in this matter,
specifically toward the above accusations, I, for one, would like to
see this topic dropped.

Nico

  #52 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Petro
 
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Nico wrote:
> >This member of the silent whatever is very solidly on Mike's side, but would
> >like to see Mike just plain ignore Jim. It's like arguing with a brick wall
> >Mike.
> >Marlene

>
> Having just now done some searching into the recent history of this
> debate, I'm now inclined to agree with you.
>
> Mike, I don't think you have to worry about this guy discrediting you.
> It it patently obivious to me that Jim is being irrational, and I'm
> beginning to realize that MANY other people have made this observation.
> As far as I can tell, Jim's two big accusations against you, your
> posted URLs and your use of the Rosetta name, seem completely
> unfounded, and most people who bother to say anything seem to agree.
>
> Unless anyone can actually offer new evidence in this matter,
> specifically toward the above accusations, I, for one, would like to
> see this topic dropped.
>
> Nico


You are both right of course, and intellectually I fully agree. I guess
it is just instinct, or pride, or whatever, but it is really hard not
defend to one's self when attacked, I have never been the type to
just stand there and take abuse. I guess I need to try harder.

Mike

  #53 (permalink)   Report Post  
Derek
 
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On 8 Sep 2005 08:17:22 -0700, Nico wrote:

> If Jim or someone else would indulge my curiousity, I would like to
> know what gives Jim the right on the use of this term. I have to claim
> ignorance on these matters, but it seems to me simply using a term does
> not give you legal rights over it. But I'll suspend my judgement.


It's a long story. On March 13, 2004, Mike posted an announcement to
this group that he'd put together a "Puerh Rosetta Page" on his web
site. Jim's first response, 2 days later, was the following (in its
entirety):

> The term rosetta was first used by me several months ago to identify
> the process I used to translate between Chinese and English tea terms.
> Please remove any inferences from your pathetic plagiarising website
> using any of my copyright ideas expressed in this group.


He later claimed to have used the phrase years earlier (1999), in an
attempt to establish a claim to antecedence, as a description of his
"cheat sheet." Except his only evidence in Google's USENET archive was
a reference to a "cheat sheet" and not a "rosetta page". He followed
this with a lot of double talk about how using the phrase years later
would still apply to his previous use.

When it was pointed out that you can't copyright an idea or a phrase,
even in a title, Jim tried a different tactic. On March 18, 2004, he
attempted to use Fox News Corp's law suit against Al Franken over the
phrase "Fair and Balanced" as support for his claim.

On May 19, 2004, he posted the following (in its entirety):

> No the court ruled on a claim of copyright infringement by Fox for the
> phrase "Fair and Balanced". The court ruled at the minimum it needed
> a qualifier so "The Rosetta Stone Fair and Balance" would pass the
> test.


The problem here for Jim's argument, is twofold. First, in spite of
misrepresentation through a number of sources, the Fox News suit
against Al Franken was a TRADEMARK infringement suit, not copyright.

Second - Fox not only failed to prove trademark infringement in a
preliminary hearing (subsequently dropping the case), but also brought
forth legal scrutiny that it might not even be a valid trademark to
begin with.

--
Derek

"Men are equal; it is not birth but virtue that makes the difference."
-- Voltaire
  #54 (permalink)   Report Post  
Derek
 
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On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 09:49:00 GMT, Michael Plant wrote:

> Space 9/7/05
>
>
>> I just brought the new guy up to speed so your accusation of
>> intolerance is in context. I first used the term Rosetta stone here
>> while you were an active poster. You change that story every time.
>> First it was public domain not copyright, then you couldn't have known
>> , and last serendipity. You're worse than Sasha fishing in other
>> groups for what people said but I stand by that statement because the
>> Supreme Court said I could do it for personal use and not because some
>> vendor tried to keep honest people honest. You say public service I
>> say infomercial with commercial links otherwise why not more links that
>> sells puerh? If you impose the criteria you're selling something. The
>> Charter taken as a whole prohibits commercial posting. We have a
>> hypocrite that accused TeaTalk of using the newsgroup for commercial
>> gain. This is a discussion group and if you can't say it here then
>> you're a special interest looking for traffic. 99% of what you say is
>> regurgitation so load up your site with hypertext anchors and provide
>> those for people who pay for bandwidth on newsgroup servers. Remember
>> this is Usenet and not WWW. I wouldn't want anybody chosen last for a
>> dodgeball team sticking up for me. The people most concered about God
>> are the sinners. If I don't care where you buy tea, then you don't
>> care where I do. All I can say if you recommend a site it is off my
>> list. I even changed puer sellers on Ebay. Now you can take a guess
>> and blabbermouth who you think that is. You're batting 50/50.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> Mike Petro wrote:
>>> Space Cowboy wrote:
>>>> You're the guy who steals my ideas from this group and uses it on your
>>>> website under the guise of public domain.
>>>
>>> Jim, that old song is getting lame.

>> ...
>>

>
>
> Mike,
>
> With due respect to you and others, Jim does have legal rights regarding the
> use of the words "Rosetta Stone" on usenet in a tea context based in part on
> his first use of the term in this regard. You guys misunderstand most of
> what he writes because you do not read between the lines. A bit of tolerance
> in his direction would be appeciated by what has become the silent majority
> here for which I hopefully speak. Hope this helps.
>
> Michael


With all due resect, Michael, this is questionable. In fact, over the
last couple of years, individuals claiming to have legal expertise
have fallen on BOTH sides of the issue.

--
Derek

Sons don't take notes on teh lessons their fathers teach.
  #55 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Petro
 
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>> If Jim or someone else would indulge my curiousity, I would like to
>> know what gives Jim the right on the use of this term. I have to claim
>> ignorance on these matters, but it seems to me simply using a term does
>> not give you legal rights over it. But I'll suspend my judgement.

>
>It's a long story. On March 13, 2004, Mike posted an announcement to
>this group that he'd put together a "Puerh Rosetta Page" on his web
>site. Jim's first response, 2 days later, was the following (in its
>entirety):



Just for the record I offered, on more than one occasion, to change
the Rosetta Page name if he would just shut up and leave me alone. He
chose to ignore every offer, obviously he just wants an excuse to
bellyache regardless.

Life goes on........
Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
"In this work, when it shall be found that much is omitted, let it not be forgotten that much likewise is performed."
Samuel Johnson, 1775, upon finishing his dictionary.


  #56 (permalink)   Report Post  
Nico
 
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(responding to Derek's post from 9-8-05 7:41)

Thanks, Derek. If your description is accurate, than I would say Jim's
complaint is a stretch, to put it mildly. Was Jim selling this "cheat
sheet?". I'm far from being a legal expert, but if you decide to use a
term (a very common one at that) in your website, and then someone else
decides to use that term, wittingly or not, you don't have a case. If
Jim's site is commercial, then I might see the point. But If it's a
trademark issue, I'm pretty sure those need to be registered. Plus, Fox
did indeed loose said case.

At any rate, if Jim really does have a point (which I doubt) he does
not serve his cause by posting paragraph upon paragragh of incoherent,
irate blather, nor by attacking anyone who has different tastes or
opinions than him. I have to say I find that sort of postering not so
much offensive as exceptionally pathetic, regardless of the legal
soundness, or lack thereof, of his claims.

Nico

  #58 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Petro
 
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On 8 Sep 2005 20:17:19 -0700, "Nico" > wrote:

>(responding to Derek's post from 9-8-05 7:41)
>
>Thanks, Derek. If your description is accurate, than I would say Jim's
>complaint is a stretch, to put it mildly. Was Jim selling this "cheat
>sheet?". I'm far from being a legal expert, but if you decide to use a
>term (a very common one at that) in your website, and then someone else
>decides to use that term, wittingly or not, you don't have a case. If
>Jim's site is commercial, then I might see the point. But If it's a
>trademark issue, I'm pretty sure those need to be registered. Plus, Fox
>did indeed loose said case.


Jim doesn't have a site, his only contributions are his posts to this
group. I don't believe the Rosetta moniker is the real issue, it is
just the only quasi-tangible, albeit still irrational, thing he can
hang his hat on to justify his vendetta against me. I offered to
retract it if he would commit to leaving me alone, he ignored the
multiple offers.

Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
"In this work, when it shall be found that much is omitted, let it not be forgotten that much likewise is performed."
Samuel Johnson, 1775, upon finishing his dictionary.
  #59 (permalink)   Report Post  
Space Cowboy
 
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You don't need anyone's permission to do the right thing. Your offer
is conditional. You never explained the changes. I'm not biting till
there is a concrete offer on the table.

Jim

Mike Petro wrote:
> Just for the record I offered, on more than one occasion, to change
> the Rosetta Page name if he would just shut up and leave me alone. He
> chose to ignore every offer, obviously he just wants an excuse to
> bellyache regardless.
>
> Life goes on........
> Mike Petro


  #60 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Petro
 
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Let's make this absolutely clear, I concede NOTHING. I, and EVERYONE
else who has spoken up on this subject, still believe you are dead
wrong. I am simply willing to make a silly "concession" to get you to
shut the hell up. I will remove the word "Rosetta" from my translation
page if you cease and desist all attacks aimed at me. Personally I
don't believe you can do it.

Given your predisposition to twisting my words, that's all I am
willing to say.

Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net/rosetta.html


Space Cowboy wrote:
> You don't need anyone's permission to do the right thing. Your offer
> is conditional. You never explained the changes. I'm not biting till
> there is a concrete offer on the table.
>
> Jim
>
> Mike Petro wrote:
> > Just for the record I offered, on more than one occasion, to change
> > the Rosetta Page name if he would just shut up and leave me alone. He
> > chose to ignore every offer, obviously he just wants an excuse to
> > bellyache regardless.
> >
> > Life goes on........
> > Mike Petro




  #61 (permalink)   Report Post  
Derek
 
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On 9 Sep 2005 09:03:41 -0700, Space Cowboy wrote:

> You don't need anyone's permission to do the right thing. Your offer
> is conditional. You never explained the changes. I'm not biting till
> there is a concrete offer on the table.


What's so abstract about "I disagree with you, but I'm willing to make
the changes you want if you'll agree to leave me alone"?

Or is it only "concrete" if he admits that he's wrong?

--
Derek

"People ask for criticism, but they only want praise." -- W. Somerset
Maugham
  #62 (permalink)   Report Post  
Derek
 
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On 8 Sep 2005 20:17:19 -0700, Nico wrote:

> (responding to Derek's post from 9-8-05 7:41)
>
> Thanks, Derek. If your description is accurate, than I would say Jim's
> complaint is a stretch, to put it mildly. Was Jim selling this "cheat
> sheet?". I'm far from being a legal expert, but if you decide to use a
> term (a very common one at that) in your website, and then someone else
> decides to use that term, wittingly or not, you don't have a case. If
> Jim's site is commercial, then I might see the point. But If it's a
> trademark issue, I'm pretty sure those need to be registered. Plus, Fox
> did indeed loose said case.


The record is available on Google.

"The Puerh Rosetta Page" thread that started it all:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?X600135CB

"Puerh Aging" thread, in which Jim continued his attacks on Mike:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?H210215CB

"Tea Talk service has been shut down" thread, in which I unfortunately
poked the hornets' nest, and which contains more of the same:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?W120125CB


The longer this goes on, the more it looks like what REALLY ticked of
Jim is the belief that Mike stole his idea. But since you can't
protect an idea outside of patenting it, he's tried to claim
copyright.

--
Derek

"Democracy becomes a government of bullies tempered by editors." --
Ralph Waldo Emerson
  #63 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Petro
 
Posts: n/a
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Derek wrote:
> The longer this goes on, the more it looks like what REALLY ticked of
> Jim is the belief that Mike stole his idea. But since you can't
> protect an idea outside of patenting it, he's tried to claim
> copyright.

Hmm, interesting observation, you may be right.

Although I would argue that creating a printable sheet of translation
terms specifically customized to the Puerh genre is not the same "idea"
as someone reading a Tin at a supermarket. I think many of us have read
similar tins at the local ethnic stores, it is hardly a new concept.

At work I deal with foreign language translation cheat sheets all of
the time. Most published translation books don't cover technical
terms, try looking up the French/German/Italian translation of a
"spectrophotometer" or a "magnahelic", you wont find it in the
standard Larousse book. So a lot of us engineering types keep cheat
sheets of the technical terms used in our industry, they actually
become good barter material as we trade them back and forth. I have a
notebook full of them in various languages. My puerh cheat sheet was
hardly an original idea, it was inspired by these notes I use at work.
It started as a MS Word document full of notes and pictures meant for
my own personal use, after answering several emails about interpreting
puerh wrappers from people who visited my website I decided to enhance
and publish my notes. The name came naturally due to my familiarity of
various translation sites and packages, it is after quite common.

Besides, all of this "Intellectual Property" mumbo jumbo aside, why
should anyone care that I offered help to the tea community at large.
Am I taking money out of anyone's pocket? Am I hurting anyone? Am I
defaming anyone? If I wasn't so damn stubborn I would just give up
and go away like all his other victims did, it really isn't worth all
of this grief when I don't even profit from it, well, except for some
good friendships along the way.

Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net/rosetta.html

  #64 (permalink)   Report Post  
Steve Hay
 
Posts: n/a
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Mike Petro wrote:
> Let's make this absolutely clear, I concede NOTHING. I, and EVERYONE
> else who has spoken up on this subject, still believe you are dead
> wrong. I am simply willing to make a silly "concession" to get you to
> shut the hell up. I will remove the word "Rosetta" from my translation
> page if you cease and desist all attacks aimed at me. Personally I
> don't believe you can do it.


I believe he is dead wrong. However, the fact that he used this
metaphor appears to be true. He used it in 2003 and early 2004, but
does copywriting a metaphor even make any sense?

Anyways, below are the posts to which I'm referring.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...en&filter= 0&

Space Cowboy Jul 7 2003, 5:28 pm show options
Newsgroups: rec.food.drink.tea
From: "Space Cowboy" >
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 15:24:49 -0600
Local: Mon, Jul 7 2003 5:24 pm
Subject: Ahmand Tea in UK and in Russia

On one box? I used the English+language as a Rosetta stone. It helped
me understand the Chinese character terminology for tea. The Arabic and
Sanskrit are a much tougher nut to crack even with the English
equivalent. I'm not finding that much English+Russian.

Space Cowboy Feb 20 2004, 11:48 am show options
Newsgroups: rec.food.drink.tea
From: (Space Cowboy)
Date: 20 Feb 2004 07:48:54 -0800
Local: Fri, Feb 20 2004 11:48 am
Subject: Poo Poo Puerh

I worked at a canning factory every summer doing college. The stories
I could tell. I still don't eat canned vegetables. I'm going to
insist my agricultural service update it assay profile for insect
excretia. How do you know the websites aren't substituting snail
sludge. My stomach trumps my palette. I only recommend taking a blow
torch to the kettle. It wasn't always the case. If the elephant is
still under the BigTop and since I found my contacts I did some more
research and made a call. The Formosa oolong is called Bai Hai. My
source said he got a call from Georgia once and the lady came back
from Taiwan and wanted some BooHoo. This in response to my question
why almost everybody seems to call it BaiHao. The real problem with
transliteration nobody in Chinatown understands what you mean and we
use it to confuse ourselves. I made a note to add the characters for
BaiHao and BaiHai to my cheat sheet. The only way this works is find
the rosetta can of tea in the store with Chinese and English and see
what is inside. Or since I recently got my phone's company version of
broadband high speed dsl I can go surfing for those UTF-8 webpages in
Chinese. If it's 5 miles to the phone switch I'm sitting at mile
marker 7 and not getting what I pay for with the babybell disclaimer
your results will vary. Anyway better than 14.4. It's been too long
since I've been to Chinatown. You'll get more hits on Lin Yun BaiHao.
The rats are scurrying for cover since the Asian bird flu outbreak.

Space Cowboy Feb 23 2004, 12:48 pm show options
Newsgroups: rec.food.drink.tea
From: (Space Cowboy)
Date: 23 Feb 2004 08:48:02 -0800
Local: Mon, Feb 23 2004 12:48 pm
Subject: Bai Hao Oolong. [UTF 8]

I woke up this morning expecting to do battle and came across a post
discussing tea. All I can say to Kuri is thanks very much. This is a
rosetta stone post resolving the use of BaiHao and a Chinese character
is a thousand words. When I first saw the post with Google all I saw
were boxes for unknown characters. You have to use View: Original
Format for UTF-8. Only the second character from the left for Taiwan
bai hao wu long cha didn't seem to translate (box). I'm not going to
quibble but All the Tea in China by Chow and Kramer use the characters
for "white hair" to describe Yinzhen Bai Hao. I'll use the marketing
name Silver Needles and Oriental Beauty so not to confuse myself. My
Japan reference is in my metro area you can immerse yourself in
Russian, Chinese, Vietnamese, Arabic, Spanish languages without
leaving the US. Any travel required is just an exercise in geography.
In fact we have the only University outside of Japan where all
subjects are in Japanese. The students come here to immerse
themselves in our culture and language.

Space Cowboy Mar 9 2004, 11:37 am show options
Newsgroups: rec.food.drink.tea
From: (Space Cowboy)
Date: 9 Mar 2004 07:37:11 -0800
Local: Tues, Mar 9 2004 11:37 am
Subject: Where do you generally buy your tea?

The aisles I mention are my own metro area. I gave the example of
finding commercial Chinese teas in Oakland versus SF because a poster
in this thread and several others over the years who say you can't
even find Chinese brand teas in VCBC. So is it simply they're not
looking in the right place? Even at that Oakland doesn't have a great
selection. So my favorites in Chinatown any generic Fujian
oolong(Black Dragon), Wuji(oolong birthplace), Silver Needles(rarely),
Foojoy. Plug in Foojoy tea into the Google search engine and you'll
get other commonly available Chinese commercial teas with rosetta
stone labeling of Chinese characters. The website for Mark T. Wendell
should sort to the top which carries top of the line Foojoy in the
tins which I can find locally. Over the years everytime there is a
Chinese commercial tea thread someone asks where is the good stuff
only to discover they like Indian and Ceylon teas well duh. If you
like lichee then any off the shelve brand will do the same for
gunpowder. If you don't like Jasmine try Lotus. Learn some lettering
and look in the loose herbal section for kilo bags. I stay away from
any HongKong export.
  #65 (permalink)   Report Post  
Derek
 
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Default

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 01:12:37 GMT, Steve Hay wrote:

> Mike Petro wrote:
>> Let's make this absolutely clear, I concede NOTHING. I, and EVERYONE
>> else who has spoken up on this subject, still believe you are dead
>> wrong. I am simply willing to make a silly "concession" to get you to
>> shut the hell up. I will remove the word "Rosetta" from my translation
>> page if you cease and desist all attacks aimed at me. Personally I
>> don't believe you can do it.

>
> I believe he is dead wrong. However, the fact that he used this
> metaphor appears to be true. He used it in 2003 and early 2004, but
> does copywriting a metaphor even make any sense?


[snip]

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that he was NOT the first
person to use the term in this newsgroup. But we're also not accepting
his assertion that this newsgroup is the only place from which Mike or
anyone else could possibly have gleaned the idea.

I know that I've already acknowledged this fact previously, and I
don't think Mike would disagree.

--
Derek

"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing
your temper or your self confidence." -- Robert Frost


  #66 (permalink)   Report Post  
Space Cowboy
 
Posts: n/a
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I'm still thinking about it ... I'll let you know Monday.

Jim

Mike Petro wrote:
> Let's make this absolutely clear, I concede NOTHING. I, and EVERYONE
> else who has spoken up on this subject, still believe you are dead
> wrong. I am simply willing to make a silly "concession" to get you to
> shut the hell up. I will remove the word "Rosetta" from my translation
> page if you cease and desist all attacks aimed at me. Personally I
> don't believe you can do it.
>
> Given your predisposition to twisting my words, that's all I am
> willing to say.
>
> Mike
> http://www.pu-erh.net/rosetta.html


  #67 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Petro
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 01:12:37 GMT, Steve Hay
> wrote:

>Mike Petro wrote:
>> Let's make this absolutely clear, I concede NOTHING. I, and EVERYONE
>> else who has spoken up on this subject, still believe you are dead
>> wrong. I am simply willing to make a silly "concession" to get you to
>> shut the hell up. I will remove the word "Rosetta" from my translation
>> page if you cease and desist all attacks aimed at me. Personally I
>> don't believe you can do it.

>
>I believe he is dead wrong. However, the fact that he used this
>metaphor appears to be true. He used it in 2003 and early 2004, but
>does copywriting a metaphor even make any sense?


I do not dispute that he published his use of a very common metaphor
before I published mine. So what! About 50,000 people published their
variation of the same metaphor before he did
(http://tinyurl.com/9hhfc). Somewhere in this old thread it was even
documented that someone else even used the term specifically regarding
tea long before he did. If it can be said that I am plagiarizing the
term then so is he. Either way, so what, its a common metaphor!

Here is an interesting quote about metaphors:
"Metaphor is often used as a teaching tool, or to convey difficult
concepts. It is found throughout languages and is considered by many
to be essential to language. Since metaphor allows for the
substitution of ideas across differing areas of study, it is
considered by some to be an interdisciplinary Rosetta Stone."

Now why exactly cant I use the term?

Just because he published the term before I did doesn't mean I got any
of my ideas from him and it doesn't mean I even read his post. My idea
is actually rather different and was arrived at independently, it was
a natural feature to add to a website devoted to puerh. Researching
and creating a genre specific translation sheet is a lot different
than reading a tin in a supermarket. I actually put work and effort
into my solution and shared it with the world, what did he do besides
pick up a can from a shelf and log the fact.

The Rosetta thing is just another excuse to attack me, he started
attacking me long before I published the Rosetta page on 3/13/2004.
Just look at these:
http://tinyurl.com/buyxs
http://tinyurl.com/ctd79
http://tinyurl.com/9qo65
http://tinyurl.com/8korn
http://tinyurl.com/95wl3

All of this was prior to the creation of my Rosetta Page. Now what
specifics have you seen him quote INCLUDING references? He doesn't
because if he quotes accurately he cant twist my words around.

Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
"In this work, when it shall be found that much is omitted, let it not be forgotten that much likewise is performed."
Samuel Johnson, 1775, upon finishing his dictionary.
  #68 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Petro
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I really don't care if you take the offer or not. I have already won
in the court of public opinion. It would just be nice to get back to
tea again without having to listen to all you BS.

Cheers,

Mike




On 10 Sep 2005 06:09:28 -0700, "Space Cowboy" >
wrote:

>I'm still thinking about it ... I'll let you know Monday.
>
>Jim
>
>Mike Petro wrote:
>> Let's make this absolutely clear, I concede NOTHING. I, and EVERYONE
>> else who has spoken up on this subject, still believe you are dead
>> wrong. I am simply willing to make a silly "concession" to get you to
>> shut the hell up. I will remove the word "Rosetta" from my translation
>> page if you cease and desist all attacks aimed at me. Personally I
>> don't believe you can do it.
>>
>> Given your predisposition to twisting my words, that's all I am
>> willing to say.
>>
>> Mike
>> http://www.pu-erh.net/rosetta.html

Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
"In this work, when it shall be found that much is omitted, let it not be forgotten that much likewise is performed."
Samuel Johnson, 1775, upon finishing his dictionary.
  #69 (permalink)   Report Post  
Steve Hay
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Mike Petro wrote:
>>>Let's make this absolutely clear, I concede NOTHING. I, and EVERYONE
>>>else who has spoken up on this subject, still believe you are dead
>>>wrong. I am simply willing to make a silly "concession" to get you to
>>>shut the hell up. I will remove the word "Rosetta" from my translation
>>>page if you cease and desist all attacks aimed at me. Personally I
>>>don't believe you can do it.

>>
>>I believe he is dead wrong. However, the fact that he used this
>>metaphor appears to be true. He used it in 2003 and early 2004, but
>>does copywriting a metaphor even make any sense?

>
>
> I do not dispute that he published his use of a very common metaphor
> before I published mine. So what! About 50,000 people published their
> variation of the same metaphor before he did
> (http://tinyurl.com/9hhfc). Somewhere in this old thread it was even
> documented that someone else even used the term specifically regarding
> tea long before he did. If it can be said that I am plagiarizing the
> term then so is he. Either way, so what, its a common metaphor!


I absolutely agree. However, in this age of commercialism taking over
society, it would not surprise me if precedent was set for copywriting
methaphors. I'm not sure many people anymore care about the
expressivity of modern language. Your pu-erh picture-word-list is
double-plus-good, I must say.

Well, so anyways, I was in California a few months ago and discovered a
Ten-Ren store. I found an opportunity to buy tea from a place (in
person) that was likely not very commercial (it was right between an
Asian Grocer and an authentic chinese food restaurant (which was
exceptionally good)). So, I walked in and bought some mid-grade Pu-Erh.
It was kind of strange. They had, I believe, four grade of it in
large tubs, one each more expensive than the last (but still not too
expensive). I bought a bit of the one that was one up from the bottom
grade, which was called "OP-20" (not very descriptive).

I'd have to say the whole experience wasn't that special, because I
really had no way of knowing what I was buying other than that it was
Pu-Erh.

The tea isn't bad though. I've had better Pu-Erhs that I've purchased
online.

Steve
  #70 (permalink)   Report Post  
Derek
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 10:37:46 -0400, Mike Petro wrote:

> The Rosetta thing is just another excuse to attack me, he started
> attacking me long before I published the Rosetta page on 3/13/2004.
> Just look at these:
> http://tinyurl.com/buyxs


I'd forgotten about Jim attacking you because you dared to include an
active URL in a message to the group and how the mistyping of the URL
(using backslashes instead of just slashes) let the link slip past his
virus protection.

The tangential attempt to connect your link to the FCC Communication
Decency Act was also a treat.
--
Derek

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
But it rocks absolutely, too.


  #71 (permalink)   Report Post  
Derek
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 10:44:13 -0400, Mike Petro wrote:

> I really don't care if you take the offer or not. I have already won
> in the court of public opinion. It would just be nice to get back to
> tea again without having to listen to all you BS.


I think you should withdraw the offer. If he's got to "think about
it," then he's likely not serious. You're willing to give him what he
says he wants and he has to think about whether or not he's willing to
leave you alone?

Sounds to me like he's more interested in toying with you than in
resolving the issue.

--
Derek

'On the whole human beings want to be good, but not too good, and not
quite all the time." -- George Orwell
  #72 (permalink)   Report Post  
pilo_
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article >, Derek > wrote:

> I think you should withdraw the offer. If he's got to "think about
> it," then he's likely not serious. You're willing to give him what he
> says he wants and he has to think about whether or not he's willing to
> leave you alone?


I think you should all avail yourselves of the most
simple and elegant solution of all: kill file his old
angry ass. Then you only have to see his blather
tangentially, when it pops up as quoted text.

Even that can get annoying, but it's periodic at worst.
  #73 (permalink)   Report Post  
Grasshopper
 
Posts: n/a
Default

For the last year or so, through a constant surveillance of tea
discussion sites, I have enjoyed learning facts and opinions regarding
tea in its numerous iterations. Further, I have taken delight in a
lively correspondence that has sprung up with several other tea
infusiasts who haunt the same posting sites.

At some boards I have hidden in the weeds, watching and studying,
analyzing and classifying. At others I have, from time to time, opined
a conjecture or narrated a tea experience. At this site, I have lurked
for the most part, but nevertheless the discussions here have played a
wonderful role in my trek.

I have realized I would not know one-tenth so much as I know about tea
were it not for the resources available to me on the www. The sites
have, in many ways, served as fantastic ROSETTA STONES in my filtering
and making of meaning from what would otherwise be still a rather
nebulous subject-not that I am anything near an expert now. Far from
it!

I have also realized that the making of meaning, the connecting of
symbols with thought, creates ROSETTA STONE moments throughout our
lives. Great teachers have been, in my experience, ROSETTA STONES.
Even naturalistic observations can be ROSETTA STONES moments. I
noticed how a tree cast a sprinkler shadow in my yard, and I realized
at last how one mountain, Mt. Rainier, creates a rain shadow and a
desert. That was a ROSETTA STONE moment.

The horrible experience of those poor people in Mississippi and
Louisiana helped me, as I watched their awful tragedy unfold,
understand better the nature of humanity as a whole. That was a sad
ROSETTA STONE moment.

I would like to develop a blend of tea that I shall name ROSETTA STONE.
In fact, I might go over the top and call it Imperial ROSETTA STONE
Blend.

I shall, from time to time, search the Internet to determine whether
anyone has used the terms similar to my using them above after I post
these sentences here at this site. If any person does such a thing,
then I am entitled, by previous practice of another poster here, to
harp and burble and insult and attack and whine and defame, and far,
far, worse, to do so in language which, after careful study by readers,
makes no sense because it lacks any semblance of coherency.

Perhaps I will not carry on in such a fashion, because to do so would
mean more than simply that I have big ROSETTA STONEs. They would see
in me a microcosm of a world of sorry people in a dark, sad state: I
would have labeled myself a crank and an obsessive, one who lashes out
at the world, one who attacks what others build through great effort
and for charitable reasons, but will not himself build anything at all.

All the best,
~grasshopper

  #74 (permalink)   Report Post  
Nico
 
Posts: n/a
Default

>I think you should all avail yourselves of the most
>simple and elegant solution of all: kill file his old
>angry ass. Then you only have to see his blather
>tangentially, when it pops up as quoted text.


I'm inclined to agree with you, but the problem is that Jim seems to
revel in bullying people off of this forum, which we all lose from, and
that won't change until it becomes very clear that the majority of
people people find this unacceptable. I've dealt with bullies for a
long time, and I know that they thrive on other's passivity. So you,
and preferably many others, have to tell them that what they're doing
is pathetic and no one is impressed.

I think we all lose out from the environment that Jim has fostered in
this forum just as much as we gain from having helpful folks like Mike
around. And as long as I make use of this forum I will do what I can to
make it a better place. For the moment, that involves holding BSers
accountable for their BS. I hope I have been effective in this to some
degree.

  #75 (permalink)   Report Post  
Nico
 
Posts: n/a
Default

>On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 10:44:13 -0400, Mike Petro wrote:
>> I really don't care if you take the offer or not. I have already won
>> in the court of public opinion. It would just be nice to get back to
>> tea again without having to listen to all you BS.


>I think you should withdraw the offer. If he's got to "think about
>it," then he's likely not serious. You're willing to give him what he
>says he wants and he has to think about whether or not he's willing to
>leave you alone?


>Sounds to me like he's more interested in toying with you than in
>resolving the issue.



I agree. I don't think it makes sense to appease irrational bullies,
because they'll almost certainly do it again.

I would really like to have something cleared up. Does anyone else
think that it's innappropriate to post URLs? There certainly isn't
anything in the charter.

As I see it, the WWW exists and is the primary location of a lot of
information. It just doesn't make sense to me that this forum, simply
because it's in another realm, should be isolated from such a wealth of
information. I have yet to see anyone but Jim voice this complaint.

I realize that in any media format there tend to be insiders who expect
a code of behavior that new people don't understand. So if, somehow, I
am out of touch here than I'd love to know about it. But, being that
many clearly knowledgable folk have yet to agree with Jim on this
matter, I assume it's just an excuse to bully people.

Nico



  #76 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Petro
 
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On 10 Sep 2005 19:39:34 -0700, "Nico" >
wrote:

>I would really like to have something cleared up. Does anyone else
>think that it's innappropriate to post URLs? There certainly isn't
>anything in the charter.
>
>As I see it, the WWW exists and is the primary location of a lot of
>information. It just doesn't make sense to me that this forum, simply
>because it's in another realm, should be isolated from such a wealth of
>information. I have yet to see anyone but Jim voice this complaint.
>
>I realize that in any media format there tend to be insiders who expect
>a code of behavior that new people don't understand. So if, somehow, I
>am out of touch here than I'd love to know about it. But, being that
>many clearly knowledgable folk have yet to agree with Jim on this
>matter, I assume it's just an excuse to bully people.
>
>Nico



Your assumption is correct.

Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
"In this work, when it shall be found that much is omitted, let it not be forgotten that much likewise is performed."
Samuel Johnson, 1775, upon finishing his dictionary.
  #77 (permalink)   Report Post  
Lorraine
 
Posts: n/a
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> I would really like to have something cleared up. Does anyone else
> think that it's innappropriate to post URLs?


NO. I rely on it.
  #78 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dog Ma 1
 
Posts: n/a
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Space Cowboy wrote:
>There is no such thing as mediocre tea. It all
> depends on your tastebuds.


Intriguing proposition. Though a big fan of Stilton, durian and pickled
herring, I recognize these as acquired tastes. (Still trying to find an
importer for surstromming.) My impression is that nearly everyone is born
with a predisposition against stale/decayed odors. So while there is a huge
range of tea styles, to me stale tea will taste mediocre (at best) to anyone
who's had the fresh stuff.

On the other hand, I live in a country where some people prefer Tang to
fresh-squeezed orange juice, sow ho knows.

-DM


  #79 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Plant
 
Posts: n/a
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/11/05


>
>
>> I would really like to have something cleared up. Does anyone else
>> think that it's innappropriate to post URLs?

>
> NO. I rely on it.


I only object when the poster is the vendor and tries to hide the fact by
pretending to be a tea drinker who "discovered" the site, or some such.
Otherwise, I encourage vendors to put their site URL as part of their
signature for easy access, if so desired.

Michael

  #80 (permalink)   Report Post  
Space Cowboy
 
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When somebody gives me a take it or leave it ultimatum I always walk
away. It means there is nothing on the table. I didn't do that in
this case and gave it some more thought over the weekend even while the
taunts from you and the peanut gallery continued. In this case you
want me to 'shut the hell up' while you make a 'concession' denying any
culpability. Okay I can live with that if your changes are done in
good faith literally and figuratively. But before I accept I also want
you too include a message board on your website. That should also be a
'concession' because it is SOP for the WWW. I still reserve the right
to raise issues not pertaining to your website directly or indirectly.
I will do that in good faith so we can still agree to disagree.

Jim

Mike Petro wrote:
> I really don't care if you take the offer or not. I have already won
> in the court of public opinion. It would just be nice to get back to
> tea again without having to listen to all you BS.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mike
>
>
> On 10 Sep 2005 06:09:28 -0700, "Space Cowboy" >
> wrote:
>
> >I'm still thinking about it ... I'll let you know Monday.
> >
> >Jim
> >
> >Mike Petro wrote:
> >> Let's make this absolutely clear, I concede NOTHING. I, and EVERYONE
> >> else who has spoken up on this subject, still believe you are dead
> >> wrong. I am simply willing to make a silly "concession" to get you to
> >> shut the hell up. I will remove the word "Rosetta" from my translation
> >> page if you cease and desist all attacks aimed at me. Personally I
> >> don't believe you can do it.
> >>
> >> Given your predisposition to twisting my words, that's all I am
> >> willing to say.
> >>
> >> Mike


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