I have been an exclusive green tea drinker, but because of comments on in
this group, and a chance encounter with Rishi Pu-er at a local store, I
bought some pu-er. I know it is probably not as good as a tael purchased on
eBay and drop-shipped from China, but I am a neophyte. In the flyer
accompany the tea (which was loose, and dark grey, sort of like pi lo in
shape (sorry, don't drink black/red so can only compare to green)), it
stated,

"Pu-erh is widely consumed throughout Asia and Europe for its time-tested
health and slimming properties." It continues describing studies that pu,
"reduces cholesterol, cleanses the bloodstream, assists with slimming and
works to detoxify the body of impurities from a heavy meat diet. . . [it] is
also known to relieve hangovers and constipation."

Hmm . . . I bought it to try (not so bad, but I don't have anything to
compare it to. It is definitely not like greens. Earthy, which was nice).
I did not buy it for slimming, cleansing, detoxing, etc. <<I noticed the
taste was described as like camphor and like "banana leaves." Never tried
banana leaves, nor have any idea what they would taste like.>>

My question, is this just marketing hype? I usually get my greens thru
Upton and Adagio, but Rishi has a Jade Cloud green that isn't bad. It
didn't seem like Rishi is the type to market to health food holistic types.
I was wondering about the "slimming" aspect also. No, I'm not going on a
diet, but what is that about?

Thanks
L

Everyone makes these claims about the pu. The French consume it
because of the perceived slimming properties. Yeah like they have a
weight problem. Any tea can be marketed as slimming because it acts as
a diuretic. The Chinese drink it more as a medicinal herb than tea.
As with all marketing hype there is a little bit of truth. You can
find Asian 'scientific' studies that back them up. I can vouch for the
claim it soothes the stomach after a heavy meal. So much so I drink it
after every evening meal. Another claim you hear is 'quenches thirst'.
The other night I ate a hunk of pickled Chinese cabbage. After the
last bite I realized it probably wasn't a good idea. A couple of hours
later my stomach is on fire and I'm sucking water from a hose. I brew
a strong cup of the cooked pu and the bad sensation was almost
immediately snuffed. I wouldn't recommend trying this yourself. I
don't think any OTC gastro salve would have worked. You'll be more
healthy if you find a tea you like drinking more and not less because
you think it is a medicine. If you like the holistic approach then
drink all the processed tea types because they each have something to
offer, supposedly.

Jim

Lara Burton wrote:
> I have been an exclusive green tea drinker, but because of comments on in
> this group, and a chance encounter with Rishi Pu-er at a local store, I
> bought some pu-er. I know it is probably not as good as a tael purchased on
> eBay and drop-shipped from China, but I am a neophyte. In the flyer
> accompany the tea (which was loose, and dark grey, sort of like pi lo in
> shape (sorry, don't drink black/red so can only compare to green)), it
> stated,
>
> "Pu-erh is widely consumed throughout Asia and Europe for its time-tested
> health and slimming properties." It continues describing studies that pu,
> "reduces cholesterol, cleanses the bloodstream, assists with slimming and
> works to detoxify the body of impurities from a heavy meat diet. . . [it] is
> also known to relieve hangovers and constipation."
>
> Hmm . . . I bought it to try (not so bad, but I don't have anything to
> compare it to. It is definitely not like greens. Earthy, which was nice).
> I did not buy it for slimming, cleansing, detoxing, etc. <<I noticed the
> taste was described as like camphor and like "banana leaves." Never tried
> banana leaves, nor have any idea what they would taste like.>>
>
> My question, is this just marketing hype? I usually get my greens thru
> Upton and Adagio, but Rishi has a Jade Cloud green that isn't bad. It
> didn't seem like Rishi is the type to market to health food holistic types.
> I was wondering about the "slimming" aspect also. No, I'm not going on a
> diet, but what is that about?
>
> Thanks
> L

> My question, is this just marketing hype? I usually get my greens thru
> Upton and Adagio, but Rishi has a Jade Cloud green that isn't bad. It
> didn't seem like Rishi is the type to market to health food holistic types.
> I was wondering about the "slimming" aspect also. No, I'm not going on a
> diet, but what is that about?

Hi Lara,

Look at http://www.pu-erh.net/medicinalclaims.html where I have listed
most of the relevant sites that I could find on the subject. I dont
think there is really any conclusive evidence but there does seem to be
a smoking gun.

As for the slimming claims I do not put much faith in them. Anyone who
has met me in person would question those claims as well. I am a very
large man, both tall and wide, and drinking puerh does not appeared to
have changed that at all, and I do drink a tremendous amount of puerh.

Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net

Thank-you Mike and Jim for your responses.

I checked out your website, Mike. Nice information. Thank-you.

I've been drinking green for years because I like it. I've largely ignored
all the new fad info I've seen popping up about it. I am amused by all the
new "green tea" drinks popping up on shelves. I view them mostly marketing
gimmicks to sell overly sweet sodas and juices.

I have enjoyed the Rishi pu-er I recently purchased. Now, one more
question, I would like to find a nice green pu-er that is reasonably priced
for everyday consumption. I am not a pu connoisseur yet, but I am intrigued
by that earthy flavor and would like to try more.

Any suggestions? I looked around on my own and was a little overwhelmed. I
would appreciate any help.

Thank-you again
L

"Mike Petro" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>> My question, is this just marketing hype? I usually get my greens thru
>> Upton and Adagio, but Rishi has a Jade Cloud green that isn't bad. It
>> didn't seem like Rishi is the type to market to health food holistic
>> types.
>> I was wondering about the "slimming" aspect also. No, I'm not going on a
>> diet, but what is that about?
>
> Hi Lara,
>
> Look at http://www.pu-erh.net/medicinalclaims.html where I have listed
> most of the relevant sites that I could find on the subject. I dont
> think there is really any conclusive evidence but there does seem to be
> a smoking gun.
>
> As for the slimming claims I do not put much faith in them. Anyone who
> has met me in person would question those claims as well. I am a very
> large man, both tall and wide, and drinking puerh does not appeared to
> have changed that at all, and I do drink a tremendous amount of puerh.
>
> Mike
> http://www.pu-erh.net
>

"Mike Petro" > wrote in
oups.com:

> Look at http://www.pu-erh.net/medicinalclaims.html where I have listed
> most of the relevant sites that I could find on the subject. I dont
> think there is really any conclusive evidence but there does seem to be
> a smoking gun.
>
> As for the slimming claims I do not put much faith in them. Anyone who
> has met me in person would question those claims as well. I am a very
> large man, both tall and wide, and drinking puerh does not appeared to
> have changed that at all, and I do drink a tremendous amount of puerh.
>
> Mike
> http://www.pu-erh.net

Thanks for the medical claims page, Mike. I have found that since
starting to drink strong pu-erh most mornings, I'm becoming less wide.
(Honesty forces me to add that my current diet consits of two modest
low-carb meals a day, plus a lot of walking.) I think the pu-erh helps,
though. But people's bodies are biochemically so complex that they can
react differently to the same food, so that the old proverb "One man's
meat..." is true both figuratively and litterally.

Ozzy

If you have access to a Chinatown you could start there. Nothing much
over a penny/gram for cooked or uncooked puerh. What is really common
in Chinatown is http://i17.ebayimg.com/02/i/03/3b/7f/40_1_b.JPG which
is a 100g/green/Tuocha. So doing the math in my Chinatown this goes
for a buck. The 100g/black/Tuocha you normally find is
http://i23.ebayimg.com/02/i/03/3c/09/21_1_b.JPG. For some reason you'd
pay a $1.50 in my Chinatown. The word Tuocha loosely means 'bird nest'
or for us ex southerners a half hollowed cantelope. There are other
Tuochas on the websites but these two should be the cheapest
comparatively. The smallest tuocha I've seen is 5g and the largest
250g but 100g typical. I think the Rishi you described is cooked. The
terms sheng,uncooked,unripe,fresh are used to describe the green puerh
and shu,cooked,ripe to describe the black puerh. It is overwhelming
but shop around and watch your pocketbook because you don't have to
spend much money to get started. When you move to the beengs or cakes
which are usually 340g+ then you pay more because you get more and more
in demand so start with the tuochas first.

Jim

Lara Burton wrote:
> Thank-you Mike and Jim for your responses.
>
> I checked out your website, Mike. Nice information. Thank-you.
>
> I've been drinking green for years because I like it. I've largely ignored
> all the new fad info I've seen popping up about it. I am amused by all the
> new "green tea" drinks popping up on shelves. I view them mostly marketing
> gimmicks to sell overly sweet sodas and juices.
>
> I have enjoyed the Rishi pu-er I recently purchased. Now, one more
> question, I would like to find a nice green pu-er that is reasonably priced
> for everyday consumption. I am not a pu connoisseur yet, but I am intrigued
> by that earthy flavor and would like to try more.
>
> Any suggestions? I looked around on my own and was a little overwhelmed. I
> would appreciate any help.
>
> Thank-you again
> L

Lara Burton wrote:
> I've been drinking green for years because I like it. I've
> largely ignored all the new fad info I've seen popping up about
> it. I am amused by all the new "green tea" drinks popping up
> on shelves. I view them mostly marketing gimmicks to sell
> overly sweet sodas and juices.

Now, I'm as pure a green tea purist as they come. But that Lipton
sweetened green tea that's out there now, it's not bad. Provided
you drink it the right way and in the proper frame of mind. First
off, don't think of this as tea. It's tea-based. And second,
under no circumstances drink this stuff straight -- it's far too
sweet for that. But cut it with about an equal amount of seltzer
water (club soda is too sharp) and a lot of ice, and you get a
very refreshing and thirst-quenching summer drink. A pleasant
alternative to all the neon-colored beverages found in typical
groceries.

--crymad

You have a point. But I avoid all those drinks. Yuck.

My son ordered a Green Tea Frappacino at Barnes & Noble. Ever try one of
those? Tasted like . . . a vanilla milk shake with lingering notes of
grass clippings.

L


"crymad" > wrote in message
...

> Now, I'm as pure a green tea purist as they come. But that Lipton
> sweetened green tea that's out there now, it's not bad. Provided
> you drink it the right way and in the proper frame of mind. First
> off, don't think of this as tea. It's tea-based. And second,
> under no circumstances drink this stuff straight -- it's far too
> sweet for that. But cut it with about an equal amount of seltzer
> water (club soda is too sharp) and a lot of ice, and you get a
> very refreshing and thirst-quenching summer drink. A pleasant
> alternative to all the neon-colored beverages found in typical
> groceries.
>
> --crymad

alas, no Chinatown. There is a Southeast Asian Market in the closest big
city. Next time I'm up there, I'll check. However, I was disappointed in
their green selection.

Thank-you for the information, though. I will start online and work my way
through the pu's. I just didn't want to get something low-priced but
low-quality to start that would scare me back to greens exclusively.

L

"Space Cowboy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> If you have access to a Chinatown you could start there. Nothing much
> over a penny/gram for cooked or uncooked puerh. What is really common
> in Chinatown is http://i17.ebayimg.com/02/i/03/3b/7f/40_1_b.JPG which
> is a 100g/green/Tuocha. So doing the math in my Chinatown this goes
> for a buck. The 100g/black/Tuocha you normally find is
> http://i23.ebayimg.com/02/i/03/3c/09/21_1_b.JPG. For some reason you'd
> pay a $1.50 in my Chinatown. The word Tuocha loosely means 'bird nest'
> or for us ex southerners a half hollowed cantelope. There are other
> Tuochas on the websites but these two should be the cheapest
> comparatively. The smallest tuocha I've seen is 5g and the largest
> 250g but 100g typical. I think the Rishi you described is cooked. The
> terms sheng,uncooked,unripe,fresh are used to describe the green puerh
> and shu,cooked,ripe to describe the black puerh. It is overwhelming
> but shop around and watch your pocketbook because you don't have to
> spend much money to get started. When you move to the beengs or cakes
> which are usually 340g+ then you pay more because you get more and more
> in demand so start with the tuochas first.
>
> Jim
>
> Lara Burton wrote:
>> Thank-you Mike and Jim for your responses.
>>
>> I checked out your website, Mike. Nice information. Thank-you.
>>
>> I've been drinking green for years because I like it. I've largely
>> ignored
>> all the new fad info I've seen popping up about it. I am amused by all
>> the
>> new "green tea" drinks popping up on shelves. I view them mostly
>> marketing
>> gimmicks to sell overly sweet sodas and juices.
>>
>> I have enjoyed the Rishi pu-er I recently purchased. Now, one more
>> question, I would like to find a nice green pu-er that is reasonably
>> priced
>> for everyday consumption. I am not a pu connoisseur yet, but I am
>> intrigued
>> by that earthy flavor and would like to try more.
>>
>> Any suggestions? I looked around on my own and was a little overwhelmed.
>> I
>> would appreciate any help.
>>
>> Thank-you again
>> L
>

"Lara Burton" > wrote:

> You have a point. But I avoid all those drinks. Yuck.
> My son ordered a Green Tea Frappacino at Barnes & Noble. Ever try one of those? Tasted like . . . a vanilla milk
> shake with lingering notes of grass clippings.
>
> "crymad" > wrote:
>>
>> Now, I'm as pure a green tea purist as they come. But that Lipton
>> sweetened green tea that's out there now, it's not bad. [snip]

Has anyone else tried the iced green tea at Panera Bread? They mix
in a little passion fruit and papaya juice. I like it so much I ask for it
with no ice, so the cup holds a lot more of the tea. Good stuff.


--
Randy
(To reply by e-mail, remove DeLeTe and SPAMFREE from my address)

I was checking around on Ebay China yesterday and the 97 vintage ripe
is 990y and the 92 vintage green is 1590y. Your blemishes may vary.
Maybe my circa mid eighties ripe is worth something after all and my
Millenium green just biding it's time. Maybe I should stick those 30
year old tins of Poo Nee in the safe.

Jim

Lara Burton wrote:
> alas, no Chinatown. There is a Southeast Asian Market in the closest big
> city. Next time I'm up there, I'll check. However, I was disappointed in
> their green selection.
>
> Thank-you for the information, though. I will start online and work my way
> through the pu's. I just didn't want to get something low-priced but
> low-quality to start that would scare me back to greens exclusively.
>
> L
>
> "Space Cowboy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > If you have access to a Chinatown you could start there. Nothing much
> > over a penny/gram for cooked or uncooked puerh. What is really common
> > in Chinatown is http://i17.ebayimg.com/02/i/03/3b/7f/40_1_b.JPG which
> > is a 100g/green/Tuocha. So doing the math in my Chinatown this goes
> > for a buck. The 100g/black/Tuocha you normally find is
> > http://i23.ebayimg.com/02/i/03/3c/09/21_1_b.JPG. For some reason you'd
> > pay a $1.50 in my Chinatown. The word Tuocha loosely means 'bird nest'
> > or for us ex southerners a half hollowed cantelope. There are other
> > Tuochas on the websites but these two should be the cheapest
> > comparatively. The smallest tuocha I've seen is 5g and the largest
> > 250g but 100g typical. I think the Rishi you described is cooked. The
> > terms sheng,uncooked,unripe,fresh are used to describe the green puerh
> > and shu,cooked,ripe to describe the black puerh. It is overwhelming
> > but shop around and watch your pocketbook because you don't have to
> > spend much money to get started. When you move to the beengs or cakes
> > which are usually 340g+ then you pay more because you get more and more
> > in demand so start with the tuochas first.
> >
> > Jim

You can, if the pu'er are authentically from the right factory to begin
with.

There are so many "copies" of the originals that some reputable vendors are
selling them online without even realising it.

eBay is one of the best and worst place to find good pu'ers; you are taking
a real gamble, and the stakes are higher if you are going for the expensive
80s and early 90s collectibles.

Besides factories and make, the quality of the ageing also plays a great
part in determining if your Poo Nee is going to worth a lot more or just a
poo's worth.

Danny

"Space Cowboy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I was checking around on Ebay China yesterday and the 97 vintage ripe
> is 990y and the 92 vintage green is 1590y. Your blemishes may vary.
> Maybe my circa mid eighties ripe is worth something after all and my
> Millenium green just biding it's time. Maybe I should stick those 30
> year old tins of Poo Nee in the safe.
>
> Jim
>
> Lara Burton wrote:
>> alas, no Chinatown. There is a Southeast Asian Market in the closest big
>> city. Next time I'm up there, I'll check. However, I was disappointed
>> in
>> their green selection.
>>
>> Thank-you for the information, though. I will start online and work my
>> way
>> through the pu's. I just didn't want to get something low-priced but
>> low-quality to start that would scare me back to greens exclusively.
>>
>> L
>>
>> "Space Cowboy" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>> > If you have access to a Chinatown you could start there. Nothing much
>> > over a penny/gram for cooked or uncooked puerh. What is really common
>> > in Chinatown is http://i17.ebayimg.com/02/i/03/3b/7f/40_1_b.JPG which
>> > is a 100g/green/Tuocha. So doing the math in my Chinatown this goes
>> > for a buck. The 100g/black/Tuocha you normally find is
>> > http://i23.ebayimg.com/02/i/03/3c/09/21_1_b.JPG. For some reason you'd
>> > pay a $1.50 in my Chinatown. The word Tuocha loosely means 'bird nest'
>> > or for us ex southerners a half hollowed cantelope. There are other
>> > Tuochas on the websites but these two should be the cheapest
>> > comparatively. The smallest tuocha I've seen is 5g and the largest
>> > 250g but 100g typical. I think the Rishi you described is cooked. The
>> > terms sheng,uncooked,unripe,fresh are used to describe the green puerh
>> > and shu,cooked,ripe to describe the black puerh. It is overwhelming
>> > but shop around and watch your pocketbook because you don't have to
>> > spend much money to get started. When you move to the beengs or cakes
>> > which are usually 340g+ then you pay more because you get more and more
>> > in demand so start with the tuochas first.
>> >
>> > Jim
>

> "Space Cowboy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> If you have access to a Chinatown you could start there. Nothing much
>> over a penny/gram for cooked or uncooked puerh. What is really common
>> in Chinatown is http://i17.ebayimg.com/02/i/03/3b/7f/40_1_b.JPG which
>> is a 100g/green/Tuocha. So doing the math in my Chinatown this goes
>> for a buck. The 100g/black/Tuocha you normally find is
>> http://i23.ebayimg.com/02/i/03/3c/09/21_1_b.JPG. For some reason you'd
>> pay a $1.50 in my Chinatown.

Lara, the teas Jim described above would be different from the Rishi ones,
because the ones that you have ould be from southside of Yunnan, while the
ones (tuochas) mentioned by Jim are from the Upper central regin of Yunnan.
They used different plant varietal and processing method, but it is worth
the try. The French began their more concrete lab explorations on pu'er on
these tuochas from the Xia Guan region in the state of Dali, back in 60s and
70s. Most of the health claims that we are told about are results of those
findings as well as later works.

They are mass produced and machine pressed, and the price range for these
tuochas are relatively cheaper than other pu'er teas.

If you are buying from a Chinatown visit, or getting it off eBay, there's a
signature on the tuocha that tells you if it is the real thing or fake.
Look for a 'G' imprint on the cake, it shouldn'tbe too difficult to locate.
There have been several explanations to the name of the tea, but it doesn't
mean 'bird nest' as Jim mentioned. The two better known ones a TUO comes
from the name of the Tuo River, where the people used it as a transportation
means in the early days to tranport this tea; and TUO as in a bowl-shaped
bent in the river where the boats take shelter. Some of the early writing
for the character TUO was different from the present one, and some took to
infer that it meant MOUND, as the shape of the tea also suggests.

Danny

samarkand wrote:
> If you are buying from a Chinatown visit, or getting it off eBay, there's a
> signature on the tuocha that tells you if it is the real thing or fake.
> Look for a 'G' imprint on the cake, it shouldn'tbe too difficult to locate.

Good point about the "G" Danny. However, the "G" mark is only used for
xia guan "te ji" tuo cha (first production year is 2003) and "jia ji"
tuo cha (after 1995, fully used in 1996). So there left some time line
for some vendors to use lower grade of tuo cha from Xia Guan Tea
Factory like the "Yi Ji" as being prior 1995-1996 "Jia Ji" tuo cha. Or
the worse thing, to use a non xia guan tuo cha and sell it as a prior
1995-1996 "Jia Ji" tuo cha.

So besides the package and some of the particular marks, the best thing
is get to know the character of the products that you want to purchase.
;-)

Jing

www.jingteashop.com

Ha! Thanks for bringing that up...I was assuing of course, that the one on
eBay as pictured by Jim is the Jia Ji tuo of course...and not replaced.

:")

Danny

"SEb" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> samarkand wrote:
>> If you are buying from a Chinatown visit, or getting it off eBay, there's
>> a
>> signature on the tuocha that tells you if it is the real thing or fake.
>> Look for a 'G' imprint on the cake, it shouldn'tbe too difficult to
>> locate.
>
> Good point about the "G" Danny. However, the "G" mark is only used for
> xia guan "te ji" tuo cha (first production year is 2003) and "jia ji"
> tuo cha (after 1995, fully used in 1996). So there left some time line
> for some vendors to use lower grade of tuo cha from Xia Guan Tea
> Factory like the "Yi Ji" as being prior 1995-1996 "Jia Ji" tuo cha. Or
> the worse thing, to use a non xia guan tuo cha and sell it as a prior
> 1995-1996 "Jia Ji" tuo cha.
>
> So besides the package and some of the particular marks, the best thing
> is get to know the character of the products that you want to purchase.
> ;-)
>
> Jing
>
> www.jingteashop.com
>

>> Good point about the "G" Danny. However, the "G" mark is only used for
>> xia guan "te ji" tuo cha (first production year is 2003) and "jia ji"
>> tuo cha (after 1995, fully used in 1996).

Oh just remembered - that includes the Jin Si (Golden Thread) Tuocha as well
(2003/4)...which has the G imprint...

>> So besides the package and some of the particular marks, the best thing
>> is get to know the character of the products that you want to purchase.
>> ;-)

....that is, if you are particular over what you are purchasing, or intending
them as investment. On the whole, the general advice is this : as long as
you enjoy the tea, just follow your heart and nose...there are times when
one gets too overwhelmed with the information chasing after vintages that
one misses the essence - which is to enjoy the tea, and then loses the
desire all together because one is afraid that one might get a fake instead
of an original. For investment, one must really know the history behind the
product...how about a master class, Jing, on the what, how, and when on
collectible pu'ers?

:")

Danny

These are the first examples of what has been available in my Chinatown
forever being sold at 'aged' prices. The aging I've seen so far is
verified by the wrapper no longer produced or with distinctive
blemishes only verified by factory records. There is no mention of
taste. However all arguments are reduced too it is most probably a
fake or not properly cared for even if aged. There might be a
collector's market but the current prices are strictly speculation.
I'll hang on to my mid eighties ripe tuocha, 30+ year old Poo in the
original tins, and a stack of Millenium green tuocha with factory run
information stamped on bottom of box with the date along with the other
teas from over the decades because I never throw anything away which
makes me a hoarder and not a collector of beanie babies. I am a
serious collector in another genre and fortunately some things can't be
faked. Or if you're in one where it is common make sure nobody can
tell the difference if you're the seller.

Jim

samarkand wrote:
> You can, if the pu'er are authentically from the right factory to begin
> with.
>
> There are so many "copies" of the originals that some reputable vendors are
> selling them online without even realising it.
>
> eBay is one of the best and worst place to find good pu'ers; you are taking
> a real gamble, and the stakes are higher if you are going for the expensive
> 80s and early 90s collectibles.
>
> Besides factories and make, the quality of the ageing also plays a great
> part in determining if your Poo Nee is going to worth a lot more or just a
> poo's worth.
>
> Danny
>
> "Space Cowboy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >I was checking around on Ebay China yesterday and the 97 vintage ripe
> > is 990y and the 92 vintage green is 1590y. Your blemishes may vary.
> > Maybe my circa mid eighties ripe is worth something after all and my
> > Millenium green just biding it's time. Maybe I should stick those 30
> > year old tins of Poo Nee in the safe.
> >
> > Jim
....blah blah blah...
>> > What is really common
>> > in Chinatown is http://i17.ebayimg.com/02/i/03/3b/7f/40_1_b.JPG which
>> > is a 100g/green/Tuocha. So doing the math in my Chinatown this goes
>> > for a buck. The 100g/black/Tuocha you normally find is
>> > http://i23.ebayimg.com/02/i/03/3c/09/21_1_b.JPG. For some reason you'd
>> > pay a $1.50 in my Chinatown.

>So besides the package and some of the particular marks, the best thing
>is get to know the character of the products that you want to purchase.
>;-)
>
>Jing
>www.jingteashop.com


You are quite correct Jing but it is also easy for you, Seb, and Danny
to say this because all you have to do is walk down to the market and
select from hundreds of puerhs from dozens of vendors. It is MUCH more
difficult for the Western consumer.

The real problem for the American consumer is identifying a
trustworthy vendor. Over 8 out of 10 Western Tea vendors don't know
enough about puerh to make good buying decisions and they in turn pass
on their bad purchases to their unsuspecting customers. Most people in
the US are forced to deal with a paltry selection at their local
Chinatown or Asian supermarket, or else buy online. If you buy online
you cannot touch, smell, or taste the tea before you buy. You are
pretty much at the mercy of the vendor. Is the vendor honest? Does the
vendor know enough to not only know real from fake but also good from
bad, dry storage from wet storage, wild from cultivated, etc.

So I ask, how does the Western consumer get to know the character of
different puerhs? If they are lucky enough to hook up with a
trustworthy vendor then they stand a chance, otherwise they pretty
much will NEVER get to know the character until they invest a lot of
money and time and get ripped off a lot. The average consumer will
give up first, for this reason I think puerh, other than commodity
loose black, is a long way from being widely accepted in this country.

I have gotten to the point where I will seldom buy Menghai or Xia Guan
online anymore because 1) there are so many fakes and it is difficult
to weed them out by just looking at a picture on a website especially
if the vendor is trying to hide it, 2) both of these factories have
raised their prices so high that they just arent worth pursuing any
more considering the risk of getting a forgery.

Quite frankly when someone new to puerh asks I seldom recommend
Menghai or Xia Guan simply because it opens up a can of worms trying
to ensure they know enough to get the real thing. I generally
recommend some of the smaller factories that are a quarter of the
price and are not big enough for anyone to try to forge them yet. I
also recommend that they buy from one of the vendors located in China
as their odds of getting good tea are much better that way. Stay away
from Menghai and Xia Guan, particularly on Ebay, unless you know the
vendor very well.

NEVER buy aged tea online unless you have a long standing relationship
with the vendor and know that they are knowledgable enough to not get
ripped off themselves. There are only a few online vendors I would
recommend for aged tea and they are, in no particular order:
Jing Teashop
Teahub
Teaspring
Grandtea
Sunsing
I have personaly obtained authentic aged puerh from all of these
vendors. REMEMBER that any aged tea will be very expensive. Dont
expect to get 20 year old Bingcha for $50, they are ether not that
old, or they have been stored poorly, or they are garbage tea to begin
with. Aged puerh is so hot in China and Taiwan right now that it is
also very much a case of "what the market will bear". Without
exception any time I have been presented with an opportunity that
sounded too good to be true, IT WAS. There is no such thing as good
authentic CHEAP aged puerh.


Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
"In this work, when it shall be found that much is omitted, let it not be forgotten that much likewise is performed."
Samuel Johnson, 1775, upon finishing his dictionary.

>So besides the package and some of the particular marks, the best thing
>is get to know the character of the products that you want to purchase.
>;-)
>
>Jing
>www.jingteashop.com


You are quite correct Jing but it is also easy for you, Seb, and Danny
to say this because all you have to do is walk down to the market and
select from hundreds of puerhs from dozens of vendors. It is MUCH more
difficult for the Western consumer.

The real problem for the American consumer is identifying a
trustworthy vendor. Over 8 out of 10 Western Tea vendors don't know
enough about puerh to make good buying decisions and they in turn pass
on their bad purchases to their unsuspecting customers. Most people in
the US are forced to deal with a paltry selection at their local
Chinatown or Asian supermarket, or else buy online. If you buy online
you cannot touch, smell, or taste the tea before you buy. You are
pretty much at the mercy of the vendor. Is the vendor honest? Does the
vendor know enough to not only know real from fake but also good from
bad, dry storage from wet storage, wild from cultivated, etc.

So I ask, how does the Western consumer get to know the character of
different puerhs? If they are lucky enough to hook up with a
trustworthy vendor then they stand a chance, otherwise they pretty
much will NEVER get to know the character until they invest a lot of
money and time and get ripped off a lot. The average consumer will
give up first, for this reason I think puerh, other than commodity
loose black, is a long way from being widely accepted in this country.

I have gotten to the point where I will seldom buy Menghai or Xia Guan
online anymore because 1) there are so many fakes and it is difficult
to weed them out by just looking at a picture on a website especially
if the vendor is trying to hide it, 2) both of these factories have
raised their prices so high that they just arent worth pursuing any
more considering the risk of getting a forgery.

Quite frankly when someone new to puerh asks I seldom recommend
Menghai or Xia Guan simply because it opens up a can of worms trying
to ensure they know enough to get the real thing. I generally
recommend some of the smaller factories that are a quarter of the
price and are not big enough for anyone to try to forge them yet. I
also recommend that they buy from one of the vendors located in China
as their odds of getting good tea are much better that way. Stay away
from Menghai and Xia Guan, particularly on Ebay, unless you know the
vendor very well.

NEVER buy aged tea online unless you have a long standing relationship
with the vendor and know that they are knowledgable enough to not get
ripped off themselves. There are only a few online vendors I would
recommend for aged tea and they are, in no particular order:
Jing Teashop
Teahub
Teaspring
Grandtea
Sunsing
I have personaly obtained authentic aged puerh from all of these
vendors. REMEMBER that any aged tea will be very expensive. Dont
expect to get 20 year old Bingcha for $50, they are ether not that
old, or they have been stored poorly, or they are garbage tea to begin
with. Aged puerh is so hot in China and Taiwan right now that it is
also very much a case of "what the market will bear". Without
exception any time I have been presented with an opportunity that
sounded too good to be true, IT WAS. There is no such thing as good
authentic CHEAP aged puerh.


Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
"In this work, when it shall be found that much is omitted, let it not be forgotten that much likewise is performed."
Samuel Johnson, 1775, upon finishing his dictionary.

Thank-you all for suggestions, (some of which I don't follow because I am
such a Pu-er novice) However, I decided against eBay until I have a good
feel for what I like. I wanted some new greens (lu an guapian, tai ping hou
kui, meng ding huang ya) and I added two pu-ers (picked mostly because of $
and small size):

Xiaguan Green Tuo Cha
YunnanTuo Cha

It will be fun to try these.

Thanks again for help.

L

"samarkand" > wrote in message
...
>>> Good point about the "G" Danny. However, the "G" mark is only used for
>>> xia guan "te ji" tuo cha (first production year is 2003) and "jia ji"
>>> tuo cha (after 1995, fully used in 1996).
>
> Oh just remembered - that includes the Jin Si (Golden Thread) Tuocha as
> well (2003/4)...which has the G imprint...
>
>>> So besides the package and some of the particular marks, the best thing
>>> is get to know the character of the products that you want to purchase.
>>> ;-)
>
> ...that is, if you are particular over what you are purchasing, or
> intending them as investment. On the whole, the general advice is this :
> as long as you enjoy the tea, just follow your heart and nose...there are
> times when one gets too overwhelmed with the information chasing after
> vintages that one misses the essence - which is to enjoy the tea, and then
> loses the desire all together because one is afraid that one might get a
> fake instead of an original. For investment, one must really know the
> history behind the product...how about a master class, Jing, on the what,
> how, and when on collectible pu'ers?
>
> :")
>
> Danny
>

>>> So besides the package and some of the particular marks, the best thing
>>> is get to know the character of the products that you want to purchase.
>>> ;-)
>
>...that is, if you are particular over what you are purchasing, or intending
>them as investment. On the whole, the general advice is this : as long as
>you enjoy the tea, just follow your heart and nose...there are times when
>one gets too overwhelmed with the information chasing after vintages that
>one misses the essence - which is to enjoy the tea, and then loses the
>desire all together because one is afraid that one might get a fake instead
>of an original.

Ah Danny I think you have touched on something that some of the more
seasoned puerh drinkers have forgotten. The average person just wants
good tea, they don't give a damn about which batch from what year from
what factory sanctioned by which Tea Master. It can be very daunting
for the newcomer to puerh to have to decipher all of this collector
mumbo-jumbo, they just want to drink some good puerh. My advise is to
latch onto to someone who already drinks puerh and let them guide you
through the different styles. As Danny says, let your nose and tongue
be your guide. Leave the collector mumbo jumbo to us obsessive
compulsive types.

>For investment, one must really know the history behind the
>product...how about a master class, Jing, on the what, how, and when on
>collectible pu'ers?

Yes, I would love to see this. Another idea that might be ready for
prime time would be to translate some of the better texts into
English. Or author a book in English. I would belly up to the table
with my cash immediately.


Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
"In this work, when it shall be found that much is omitted, let it not be forgotten that much likewise is performed."
Samuel Johnson, 1775, upon finishing his dictionary.

"Mike Petro" > wrote in message
news

> I have gotten to the point where I will seldom buy Menghai or Xia Guan
> online anymore because 1) there are so many fakes and it is difficult
> to weed them out by just looking at a picture on a website especially
> if the vendor is trying to hide it, 2) both of these factories have
> raised their prices so high that they just arent worth pursuing any
> more considering the risk of getting a forgery.

....and:

> Stay away
> from Menghai and Xia Guan, particularly on Ebay, unless you know the
> vendor very well.

What about Michael from mandjs.com - is he trustworthy enough? I have gotten
some Menghai cakes and Xia Guan tuochas from him. I do no think that his
prices are particularly high (what might somewhat contradict your first
warning), and I (a puerh newbie) find the quality to be quite high.

Gyorgy

> I do no think that his prices are particularly high (what might somewhat
> contradict your first warning),

....I mean, your _second_ warning.

Gyorgy

On Thu, 11 Aug 2005 21:06:46 +0200, "Gyorgy Sajo" >
wrote:

>
>"Mike Petro" > wrote in message
>news >
>
>> I have gotten to the point where I will seldom buy Menghai or Xia Guan
>> online anymore because 1) there are so many fakes and it is difficult
>> to weed them out by just looking at a picture on a website especially
>> if the vendor is trying to hide it, 2) both of these factories have
>> raised their prices so high that they just arent worth pursuing any
>> more considering the risk of getting a forgery.
>
>...and:
>
>> Stay away
>> from Menghai and Xia Guan, particularly on Ebay, unless you know the
>> vendor very well.
>
>What about Michael from mandjs.com - is he trustworthy enough? I have gotten
>some Menghai cakes and Xia Guan tuochas from him. I do no think that his
>prices are particularly high (what might somewhat contradict your first
>warning), and I (a puerh newbie) find the quality to be quite high.

MandJs would not be my first choice as they are higher priced than
some of the other Chinese sources when you add shipping into the
equation. The young teas I have gotten from them have been authentic
but I have had a bad experience with some aged tea from them. My
recommendation would be for you to check out www.jingteashop.com or
www.teaspring.com and compare their prices to MandJ and be sure to
include shipping in the total cost calculation. These 2 sites are good
for newbies as they are honest and sell only authentic teas. There are
cheaper sites but I would only recommend them to seasoned puerhites as
you have to be careful because if you dont know your tea you might
wind up with the fake stuff.

What I was talking about in warning #2 was that the factories
themselves have raised the wholesale price of their teas to
ridiculously high levels. You will start to see this affect retail
pricing as the vendors deplete their stock and go to buy more at the
wholesale level. Consequently, since these teas are commanding such a
high price the number of forgeries has also increased.

Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
"In this work, when it shall be found that much is omitted, let it not be forgotten that much likewise is performed."
Samuel Johnson, 1775, upon finishing his dictionary.

> Oh just remembered - that includes the Jin Si (Golden Thread) Tuocha as well
> (2003/4)...which has the G imprint...

Oups...thank you Danny! Jin Si tuo cha from 2004 as well ;-)

[Mike]
You are quite correct Jing but it is also easy for you, Seb, and Danny
to say this because all you have to do is walk down to the market and
select from hundreds of puerhs from dozens of vendors. It is MUCH more
difficult for the Western consumer.

[Jing]
I agree that we do have more chance and easier access to the tea and
tea source. However, we have a lot more fakes to confuse us since we
have a bigger market and also the goods are more frequently changing.
If we don't stick to the basic and keep on updating with people who
have the knowledge, we will get lost easier as well. Sure, we are
lucky compare to people in the West but see it this way when someone
comes on google (or other forums where we are) and question about pu
erh, we are here among with others and we do share all we learn for
free. So, sources are available for people in the west somehow. I
won't hold back any info that I know and we will dig for what I don't
know as far as I can and we share the result.

[Mike]
The real problem for the American consumer is identifying a trustworthy
vendor... [ snip]

[Jing]
A trustworthy vendor is really important to start the pu erh journey
for newcomers. However, this is not only true for puerh. We are facing
the same condition with most of other teas. Some vendors are selling a
Mao Xie as a Tie Guan Yin, or a simply Jian Cha as the green tea king
Tai Ping Hou Kui...How someone can tell the difference between the two
if he hasn't tried the real thing, hence the purpose of knowing the
character of a tea. Without knowing the character of a particular tea
one would be paying for something that it isn't what it should be.

[Mike]
I have gotten to the point where I will seldom buy Menghai or Xia Guan
online anymore because 1) there are so many fakes and it is difficult
to weed them out by just looking at a picture on a website especially
if the vendor is trying to hide it, 2) both of these factories have
raised their prices so high that they just arent worth pursuing any
more considering the risk of getting a forgery.

[Jing]
Same for other puerh teas. No doubt there is tons of fake Menghai or
Xia Guan puerh out there. But, some pu erh wrapped with lovely and
attractive wrappers produced from small and new factories (or using
brand under old famous factories) claims to be from Yiwu or others
famous places. If you don't know what the character of a Yiwu, Ban
Zhang, or Si Mao tea is, you might end up buying some puerh teas that
is compressed with Lin Cang, Mengku, Jing Hong area tea, or even tea
leaves from Sichuan or Guizhou provinces. And honestly, if you are
paying for this type of mass produced tea but advertised as a limited
produced Yiwu tea or a "thousand old wild tea tree", it is way too
expensive for what the products really is. Personally, there is nothing
more than a forgery with this type of products as well as the fakes of
the Menghai or Xia Guan tea factory.

[Mike]
Quite frankly when someone new to puerh asks I seldom recommend Menghai
or Xia Guan simply because it opens up a can of worms trying to ensure
they know enough to get the real thing.

[Jing]
Let's look at it this way, why so many people try to fake Menghai and
Xia Guan teas? There must be a reason. Due to their long history and
rich experience in producing puerh tea that started in 40's, due to
the fact that they have fixed tea sources/providers, large tea
farms/mountains that provide them tea leaves, they are able to produce
tea at a certain standard of quality with its particular character.

[Mike]
I generally recommend some of the smaller factories that are a quarter
of the price and are not big enough for anyone to try to forge them
yet. I also recommend that they buy from one of the vendors located in
China as their odds of getting good tea are much better that way. Stay
away
from Menghai and Xia Guan, particularly on Ebay, unless you know the
vendor very well.

[Jing]
However, I am not saying that only Menghai and Xia Guan tea factory
produce good tea but not others. There is a couple of young factories
are trying to give good products. But compares to a lot of the new and
small factories with limited compressing skill and technique, which
even doesn't have their own piece of land to plant tea trees, which
has to gather small quantity of tea leaves from plenty of different
areas, the quality of each production won't be even. To get a good
piece of tea from these factories really depends on your luck,
especially when you buy them from internet since you can't touch,
smell, or taste them.

So, if you are sure the vendor that you are dealing with is trustworthy
enough, personally, I would recommend going for some Menghai or Xia
Guan teas even if their price is higher. But, at least you get what you
paid for and you are sure you will get the same quality one if you want
to buy some more later. I won't say to someone new to pu erh to start
with some new fashion "puerh" such as silver needle puerh for
example. The reason why, is that over 90% of this type of puerh use
leaves that are from different tea tree race from Sichuan, Guizhou
province instead from Yunnan. In most of the case, you are not paying
for what it should be. Second, the reason why you like or want to try
puerh, besides the fact of the health benefit, it is because its taste
is like no other tea, it is puerh, just different.

Jing
www.jingteashop.com

[Danny]
For investment, one must really know the history behind the
product...how about a master class, Jing, on the what, how, and when on

collectible pu'ers?

[Jing]
euh...history...long, isn't it? Danny, maybe you can pull out something
to start and we fill up what we know into it? Let's build up the
puzzle! Should be fun... ;-)

Jing
www.jingteashop.com

Jing, I think you are missing my point. You are recommending that we
as consumers learn the character of the tea so we can make good buying
decisions. Your advice is great for someone in the East, but it is
very difficult for someone in the West. I agree that it is the "ideal"
thing to do, but for the reality is that for most of us in the Western
world it almost impossible to do UNTIL we find a trustworthy vendor.

YOU can go to market and taste 10 different teas BEFORE you buy a
single one, YOU can then pass on the ones that don't taste right, YOU
can present a tea to a Tea Master for his opinion. WE must take a
chance based on a grainy photograph and a 3 sentence description on
some website. It may be good tea or it might be garbage, we wont know
for sure until AFTER we have paid our money and it is delivered a
couple of weeks later EVEN if we have some prior knowledge of the
character we are looking for. Someone is the East can learn more about
tea character in one year than us Westerners can learn in a lifetime.

Put it this way, would you buy Gold or Silver or Diamonds over the
Internet? I bet you would only do it if you REALLY knew the vendor
well. It is the same for us with tea, and tea can be almost as
expensive. It is ONLY after WE develop a relationship with a
trustworthy vendor that we can begin to understand the character of
the tea and trust that we will get is truly what is being advertised.
Until then we must take our chances which means spending lots of money
and buying lots of overpriced garbage tea. For example I know what an
aged Yellow label should taste like, that doesn't mean I can get it
even if I pay handsomely. I have to trust someone like you or Daniel
or Linda, and it costs a lot of money to learn who you can trust and
who you cannot. If I buy a 70s yellow label off of any old vendor I
see on Ebay I will almost certainly get ripped off, but until I have
tasted an authentic one how do I even know what I am supposed to be
looking for. I see newbies buying artificially aged 12yo teas thinking
they are great and I know for a fact they are not authentic. Yet the
newbie thinks they are great because they do taste good to him and he
doesn't know what a real 12yo should taste like. So now the newbie
thinks this fake tea is what he should compare other teas to and he
would probably never know a real 12yo if it bit him on the tush.

I know you and Seb sell authentic tea, including old tea, but that is
only after years of buying puerh elsewhere, and then developing a
relationship with you guys. If you were the first vendor I went to
how would I even know that you are selling the real thing. You said
you openly share information, I know this to be true, however how does
a NEWBIE know that you are more accurate than the guy on ebay selling
whatever he can get his hands on and advertising it as being whatever
he was told it was? The truth is that he wont! There is so much
misinformation out there that it boggles the mind.

There is a real need for English language books so that someone who
was willing to do the research would have a resource other than
someone who is trying to make a living off of selling the stuff.
Virtually every current source of information has a vested interest in
trying to sell you something. Hence it is difficult to know who to
believe and who not to. The poor newbie has to trust his instinct, and
maybe the advise of some others who have already tread that road,
before they can really know which vendor to trust. Only then can they
begin to learn the character of the different teas.

The price of admission to learn the character of different puerhs is
still quite high, and even then simply knowing the character is not
enough.....

Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
"In this work, when it shall be found that much is omitted, let it not be forgotten that much likewise is performed."
Samuel Johnson, 1775, upon finishing his dictionary.

"SEb" > writes:

> [...]
> A trustworthy vendor is really important to start the pu erh journey
> for newcomers. However, this is not only true for puerh. We are facing
> the same condition with most of other teas. Some vendors are selling a
> Mao Xie as a Tie Guan Yin,

Strange. In my experience (exclusively in the West) Mao Xie is much
harder to find than TGY. Of course, if much of the TGY isn't real
TGY, then ... what?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

"SEb" > writes:

> [Danny]
> For investment, one must really know the history behind the
> product...how about a master class, Jing, on the what, how, and when on
>
> collectible pu'ers?
>
> [Jing]
> euh...history...long, isn't it? Danny, maybe you can pull out something
> to start and we fill up what we know into it? Let's build up the
> puzzle! Should be fun... ;-)

Not that I've asked him, but I'm *sure* Mike would be happy to publish
the result on his site.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

"Mike Petro" > wrote in message
...

> MandJs would not be my first choice as they are higher priced than
> some of the other Chinese sources when you add shipping into the
> equation. The young teas I have gotten from them have been authentic
> but I have had a bad experience with some aged tea from them. My
> recommendation would be for you to check out www.jingteashop.com or
> www.teaspring.com and compare their prices to MandJ and be sure to
> include shipping in the total cost calculation. These 2 sites are good
> for newbies as they are honest and sell only authentic teas.

Mike,

Thank you very much. I will check out these sites.

Gyorgy

Lewis Perin wrote:
> Strange. In my experience (exclusively in the West) Mao Xie is much
> harder to find than TGY. Of course, if much of the TGY isn't real
> TGY, then ... what?


If you don't know the specific name of this tea (mao xie), it will
mainly sold under the name "Anxi se zhong (includes mao xie, ben shan,
mei zhan etc.)"
The Mao Xie and Ben Shan is easily advertised as Tie Guan Yin over here
as well to tea drinkers (some buyers as well) that can't really tell
the difference. Or another way, some sellers mixed the Mao Xie or/and
Ben Shan with Tie Guan Yin to allow to increase the floral fragrance of
the Tie Guan Yin, therefore, the cost of tea is also much cheaper.
So, if much of the TGY isn't real TGY, then...you are not paying for
what it should be if you buy it.

Jing
www.jingteashop.com

In article .com>,
"SEb" > wrote:

> If you don't know the specific name of this tea (mao xie), it will
> mainly sold under the name "Anxi se zhong

At a local tea shop, I sometimes buy an oolong
which they call simply "Anxi Oolong".

Any ideas what this might be?..............p*

Mike, I understand that it is harder for western people to learn puerh
teas over the Internet without being able to sample the tea and not
having resources in hands. Even though there are people sharing
information on forum it is still a hard task. Buying, without knowing
any basic of the thing is risky, for anything. Finding honest vendors
(or even vendor that knows what they are selling) can be hard.
Nonetheless, it is possible for people who use the Internet and forum
like Rec.food. They can meet other pu erh drinkers or pu erh fans that
can tell them where to go to find the "real" pu erh.

But, let's take the case of someone coming to google saying something
like "I have decided to give a try to pu erh, anybody have
suggestions?" And let's also try to forget about the fakes for the
Menghai and Xia Guan away since there are trustworthy vendors as you
mentioned.

Now what is the best choice for someone like this person, pay more to
get some pu erh from reputable factories who have skills and experience
and try to respect the tradition as much as they can. Or, pay less to
buy some teas that are simply advertising under the famous flame such
as "wild, ancient, yiwu..." and in most of the case are not?

What would be the better choice for a newbie that wants to give a try
to puerh tea?

Jing
www.jingteashop.com

On 14 Aug 2005 07:49:49 -0700, "SEb" >
wrote:

>Mike, I understand that it is harder for western people to learn puerh
>teas over the Internet without being able to sample the tea and not
>having resources in hands. Even though there are people sharing
>information on forum it is still a hard task. Buying, without knowing
>any basic of the thing is risky, for anything. Finding honest vendors
>(or even vendor that knows what they are selling) can be hard.
>Nonetheless, it is possible for people who use the Internet and forum
>like Rec.food. They can meet other pu erh drinkers or pu erh fans that
>can tell them where to go to find the "real" pu erh.
>
>But, let's take the case of someone coming to google saying something
>like "I have decided to give a try to pu erh, anybody have
>suggestions?" And let's also try to forget about the fakes for the
>Menghai and Xia Guan away since there are trustworthy vendors as you
>mentioned.
>
>Now what is the best choice for someone like this person, pay more to
>get some pu erh from reputable factories who have skills and experience
>and try to respect the tradition as much as they can. Or, pay less to
>buy some teas that are simply advertising under the famous flame such
>as "wild, ancient, yiwu..." and in most of the case are not?
>
>What would be the better choice for a newbie that wants to give a try
>to puerh tea?
>
>Jing
>www.jingteashop.com


Jing, I still disagree.

All of those assumptions above only work IF the newbie finds an honest
AND knowledgeable vendor, which are somewhat rare to begin with, but
for conversation sake lets assume they did find one. An honest AND
knowledgeable vendor will weed out the fake wild, ancient, yiwu, just
as easily as they will weed out the fake Menghai. That same honest
vendor can easily recommend less expensive yet authentic puerh than
Menghai. This knowledge, and expectation of good advice, is part of
why the newbie selects that particular vendor, otherwise they might as
well just take their chances on eBay.

I would have agreed with you about Menghai 2-3 years ago when Menghai
was only a little more expensive that the others, but Menghai, and Xia
Guan have become the most expensive young puerh on the market. If the
newbie has a knowledgeable vendor they can find many other very good
puerhs that are less than half of the price of Manghai. For example
Six Famous Mountain, or Haiwan, or Dadugang are all much less
expensive than Menghai. There are many good and authentic teas among
them.

Assuming the newbie has found such a vendor then I would still
recommend one of the lessor known, but authentic, factories rather
than buying the most expensive stuff. You never know, many people do
not even like puerh after trying it so why buy the most expensive
stuff straight off. I do NOT think the best choice is the top of the
line most expensive factory until they decide that they really like
the genre and want to explore the better varieties.

Would you recommend the most expensive French vineyard to someone who
has never drank wine? Wouldn't it be better to offer a much less
expensive but still high quality wine until they start to develop an
appreciation for wine? After all some people would prefer beer.

Menghai will continue to raise their prices as long as there is a
demand for their tea. I, for one, will speak my protest with my wallet
and buy 3 cakes of 6FTM instead of one cake of Menghai.

Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
"In this work, when it shall be found that much is omitted, let it not be forgotten that much likewise is performed."
Samuel Johnson, 1775, upon finishing his dictionary.

There is enough choice in the Western markets for the beginner to get
started. There is nothing wrong with the cheap stuff in Chinatown or
the Net. Even the 'expensive' $30 300g beengs are ballpark for gourmet
tea shoppe prices $10/100g. I think the only learning curve to sort
the nomenclature and styles. The taste takes care of itself. It's
your tastebuds. You can buy different Darjeelings from different
estate and they taste almost the same but not quite. So how much time
and money are you going to spend just too differentiate? I think the
expensive aged most likely fake argument is for the collectors but I
think the plethora of affordable recent versions is even more apropos
for the beginner. If you want choice learn some Chinese and buy from
TaoBao or Ebay China. If I was going to recommend tea to a novice the
pu would be the last suggestion.

Jim

SEb wrote:
> Mike, I understand that it is harder for western people to learn puerh
> teas over the Internet without being able to sample the tea and not
> having resources in hands. Even though there are people sharing
> information on forum it is still a hard task. Buying, without knowing
> any basic of the thing is risky, for anything. Finding honest vendors
> (or even vendor that knows what they are selling) can be hard.
> Nonetheless, it is possible for people who use the Internet and forum
> like Rec.food. They can meet other pu erh drinkers or pu erh fans that
> can tell them where to go to find the "real" pu erh.
>
> But, let's take the case of someone coming to google saying something
> like "I have decided to give a try to pu erh, anybody have
> suggestions?" And let's also try to forget about the fakes for the
> Menghai and Xia Guan away since there are trustworthy vendors as you
> mentioned.
>
> Now what is the best choice for someone like this person, pay more to
> get some pu erh from reputable factories who have skills and experience
> and try to respect the tradition as much as they can. Or, pay less to
> buy some teas that are simply advertising under the famous flame such
> as "wild, ancient, yiwu..." and in most of the case are not?
>
> What would be the better choice for a newbie that wants to give a try
> to puerh tea?
>
> Jing
> www.jingteashop.com

Mike,

> All of those assumptions above only work IF the newbie finds an honest
> AND knowledgeable vendor, which are somewhat rare to begin with, but
> for conversation sake lets assume they did find one. An honest AND
> knowledgeable vendor will weed out the fake wild, ancient, yiwu, just
> as easily as they will weed out the fake Menghai. That same honest
> vendor can easily recommend less expensive yet authentic puerh than
> Menghai. This knowledge, and expectation of good advice, is part of
> why the newbie selects that particular vendor, otherwise they might as
> well just take their chances on eBay.

I agree, all those assumptions only work IF there are honest AND
knowledgeable vendors. However, we know they exist, then for those
newbies who want to try there first puerh from these two factories,
which is considered the best, they have some places to go to get their
teas or get advice of other factories besides these two.

My point for the factories/products is more on the "educational" side
for tea drinkers, especially for newbies. As giving an advice, is
better to give a best sample of the topic that you are talking about,
so for the people who first get to know this thing can get a clear
idea. If just to start and get the first impression of the puerh tea,
why not spend a bit more but be sure about what you are getting?

Maybe later on, after having a better idea of what the hell is puerh
tea, having more experience, then can go for some other factories and
try to test your taste of puerh? But without any proper example, nobody
can tell anything about what they don't really know.

Of course, like what you said there are some other factories that are
reputed besides the Xia Guan and Meng Hai tea factories. But you cannot
agree with that they are the best to be the very first sampling for
newbies. That is why I recommend them first as "educational" purchase.

Like for anything, there are some people who put budget first before
choices and I respect that, so if they find the tea from those two
factories too expensive even they like them, I tell them to look for
factory like feng qing, ling cang, nan jian or newer factories like
xing hai or Haiwan, which I was already suggesting a year ago. But with
most of the other new factories (which i already explained why), I have
to say, Mike, unless the newbies have tried as much as different puerh
like experienced puerh drinkers, they will never pick out which are the
good products among all these charming wrappers and beautiful
definitions.


> I would have agreed with you about Menghai 2-3 years ago when Menghai
> was only a little more expensive that the others, but Menghai, and Xia
> Guan have become the most expensive young puerh on the market. If the
> newbie has a knowledgeable vendor they can find many other very good
> puerhs that are less than half of the price of Manghai. For example
> Six Famous Mountain, or Haiwan, or Dadugang are all much less
> expensive than Menghai. There are many good and authentic teas among
> them.

I agree, these two factories have came through a "crazy" rising period.
However, the "good news" is the price is quite stable for now according
to the first hand dealers that we know. Price is high for their
products but it is also because their products are better. It is like
evrything, pay more for the better.

However, for now, a lot of new factories which have gained their name
during the "pricing issue" with the MH and XG tea factory have also
raised their prices right after that as well. And from some of the
pricing researching, some of the products of the Dadugang or the 6FM
are selling even more expensive than the products of the MH and XG tea
factory. So I think the price rising is not only with the two major
factories but they just started the game first because of the demand.


> Assuming the newbie has found such a vendor then I would still
> recommend one of the lessor known, but authentic, factories rather
> than buying the most expensive stuff. You never know, many people do
> not even like puerh after trying it so why buy the most expensive
> stuff straight off. I do NOT think the best choice is the top of the
> line most expensive factory until they decide that they really like
> the genre and want to explore the better varieties.

For me, authentic has two definition, one is the products are really
produced from THE factory. Second is the products are really what they
are claimed. Miss any of these two and the tea is not authentic
anymore. But we all know, the real authentic will always cost you more.
Like what we say in Chinese: good thing is never cheap.

Anyway, you can still go and hunt for any puerh that attrats you
according to the eye, it is a choice and it is fun. However, if you
didn't like the puerh tea and the worse thing is, unluckily, you bought
a piece of MH or XG tea with higher price for you tasting...Well, what
I can say? You still had a chance to taste the best tea of the puerh
catagory. And you will have a better reason to annouce that: well, this
tea is really crap even though i got the best one... ;"p

Jing
www.jingteashop.com

Hey SEb,

>> All of those assumptions above only work IF the newbie finds an honest
>> AND knowledgeable vendor, which are somewhat rare to begin with, but
>> for conversation sake lets assume they did find one. An honest AND
>> knowledgeable vendor will weed out the fake wild, ancient, yiwu, just
>> as easily as they will weed out the fake Menghai. That same honest
>> vendor can easily recommend less expensive yet authentic puerh than
>> Menghai. This knowledge, and expectation of good advice, is part of
>> why the newbie selects that particular vendor, otherwise they might as
>> well just take their chances on eBay.
>
>I agree, all those assumptions only work IF there are honest AND
>knowledgeable vendors. However, we know they exist, then for those
>newbies who want to try there first puerh from these two factories,
>which is considered the best, they have some places to go to get their
>teas or get advice of other factories besides these two.

Just because "we" (you and I) know that honest vendors exist does not
mean that the newbie will know. I was a newbie once and I got EXTREMELY
frustrated trying to find a knowledgeable and honest vendor, I wasted a
lot of money on garbage puerh and I am not a fool. That frustration was
what prompted me to start my website so that I could share what I
learned with others. Even if a newbie comes into this newsgroup, and
most newbies will not even know about RFDT unless they are fairly
computer savvy, how do they know who to listen to? I may have some
credibility with the old timers but a newbie wont know me from Ronald
McDonald until they happen to visit my website. If they listen to
Space(d) Cowboy they will wind up in Chinatown or TaoBao, if they
listen to others they might wind up at Upton or Rishi or Hou De or
eBay. How do they know who to listen too? Some of the vendors who gave
me less than fair deals have participated in this very group so if the
newbie is a cautious consumer they will not trust what the vendors say
either, at least not until they gain some experience. So it is not so
easy for the newbie to know who to listen to even if they do make it to
this newsgroup.


>My point for the factories/products is more on the "educational" side
>for tea drinkers, especially for newbies. As giving an advice, is
>better to give a best sample of the topic that you are talking about,
>so for the people who first get to know this thing can get a clear
>idea. If just to start and get the first impression of the puerh tea,
>why not spend a bit more but be sure about what you are getting?

I respect you opinion but I have a different opinion. I would not
recommend someone's first wine to be the best wine on the market, same
with puerh, especially considering the widespread forgery issue. I am a
frugal person and I would steer them towards something less expensive
but almost as good, then if they liked it I would introduce them to the
rest of the genre.

>Maybe later on, after having a better idea of what the hell is puerh
>tea, having more experience, then can go for some other factories and
>try to test your taste of puerh? But without any proper example, nobody
>can tell anything about what they don't really know.

Now that's when I might recommend the Menghai. Once they "know" that
they like puerh in general is when I would introduce them to the more
expensive stuff.

>Of course, like what you said there are some other factories that are
>reputed besides the Xia Guan and Meng Hai tea factories. But you cannot
>agree with that they are the best to be the very first sampling for
>newbies. That is why I recommend them first as "educational" purchase.

I disagree, there are many puerhs that are almost as good or even
better as Menghai. For example the Haiwan or one of the 6FTM cakes on
your site would be an excellent place to start tasting raw puerh. They
are definitely good enough puerh for someone to decide if the like
puerh or not and they are 30-50% less expensive than the current
Menghai stuff.


>Like for anything, there are some people who put budget first before
>choices and I respect that, so if they find the tea from those two
>factories too expensive even they like them, I tell them to look for
>factory like feng qing, ling cang, nan jian or newer factories like
>xing hai or Haiwan, which I was already suggesting a year ago. But with
>most of the other new factories (which i already explained why), I have
>to say, Mike, unless the newbies have tried as much as different puerh
>like experienced puerh drinkers, they will never pick out which are the
>good products among all these charming wrappers and beautiful
>definitions.

Now this is along the lines of what I am trying to say. I am not
recommending just "ANY" new factory but I do feel that a responsible
vendor could easily recommend something from a smaller factory that is
good and authentic.


>> I would have agreed with you about Menghai 2-3 years ago when Menghai
>> was only a little more expensive that the others, but Menghai, and Xia
>> Guan have become the most expensive young puerh on the market. If the
>> newbie has a knowledgeable vendor they can find many other very good
>> puerhs that are less than half of the price of Manghai. For example
>> Six Famous Mountain, or Haiwan, or Dadugang are all much less
>> expensive than Menghai. There are many good and authentic teas among
>> them.
>
>I agree, these two factories have came through a "crazy" rising period.
>However, the "good news" is the price is quite stable for now according
>to the first hand dealers that we know. Price is high for their
>products but it is also because their products are better. It is like
>evrything, pay more for the better.

Menghai started raising their prices when speculation about being
acquired by Bowin corporation started back in 2004. The collectors
started snatching up Mengahi teas speculating that they would rise in
value because of the change in ownership of the factory. The factory
saw the demand and seized the opportunity to raise their prices.
Menghai prices were always a "little" higher than other factories but
not by much. They more than doubled their prices in a years time yet
their expenses did not double. Where I come form they call that
"gouging". It is like the gas Station in my town that raised their
price of gas by a dollar a gallon when the attack on 9/11 happened.
Their wholesale prices didn't go up, every other Gas Station stayed
the same price. This station was just being greedy, I have never gone
back to that Gas Station since. In my opinion Menghai got greedy and I
show my disapproval by buying my young tea from other factories.

>However, for now, a lot of new factories which have gained their name
>during the "pricing issue" with the MH and XG tea factory have also
>raised their prices right after that as well. And from some of the
>pricing researching, some of the products of the Dadugang or the 6FM
>are selling even more expensive than the products of the MH and XG tea
>factory. So I think the price rising is not only with the two major
>factories but they just started the game first because of the demand.

Yes, Menghai started the price hike, and just like the Airlines or the
Gas Stations, once one factory went up the others did too. Notably 6FTM
has dramatically risen in price in the last 2 years. Many of their
cakes are simply just too expensive to consider if you intend to drink
them. They are slick marketers and try to make a product that attracts
collectors by only making limited numbers of them. For example this new
1780th Anniversary of Kong Ming box set with 2 bings, 2 tuos, and 1
brick is way too expensive to ever drink, it is only for the collectors
and speculators. Too rich for my blood!

>For me, authentic has two definition, one is the products are really
>produced from THE factory. Second is the products are really what they
>are claimed. Miss any of these two and the tea is not authentic
>anymore. But we all know, the real authentic will always cost you more.
>Like what we say in Chinese: good thing is never cheap.

You are quite right. There is a lot of misleading and false advertising
by some of the puerh factories; this is in addition to the outright
forgeries. In the USA they do sell forgeries and lie sometimes but the
vendors are punished when they get caught. They could be sued and fined
and even put in Jail for telling these lies and selling these
forgeries. Unfortunately China has not started to enforce "truth in
advertising" laws yet. Consequently they loose credibility in the eyes
of the Western World since we know we must question the authenticity of
everything.

I have also found that the authentic goods do not necessarily cost more
since the forgeries are often sold at the same price as the authentic
teas. Now you might get a different price in the markets but they will
often try to sell a laowai fake tea at a full price, especially in the
Tourist areas.

Seb, or Jing, (I am not sure who is really driving this thread?) I know
you guys really like Menghai and Xia Guan a lot but they are NOT the
only game in town. They are indeed very reputable but they have cashed
in on that reputation to the point where I think they are now often
overpriced. There are other choices that now make a lot of sense when
you consider quality AND price-point.

Cheers,

Mike

Space Cowboy > wrote:

> The French consume it because of the perceived
> slimming properties. Yeah like they have a weight
> problem.

"But You don't have dandruff"!
"Exactly!"