Hi all,

I would like to know if is true that white tea has more antioxidants on
average than green tea.
Which white teas would you recommend as the healthiest?
Thanks

Bruno

The assumption the less processing of tea the more nutrients is
retained. I don't see anything in oxidation that chemically would
alter the antioxidants. It could be a fully oxidized black tea might
produce a 'sap' that is left behind in processing but I see no evidence
of that. I think the amount of antioxidents is determined by
environmental conditions and not processing. So a tea from India might
be different in antioxidants than somewhere else. White tea is simply
dried fast. When mentioned as such it is a style from China. Recently
other tea producing areas are producing their versions such as
Darjeeling. If you want more antioxidants drink more tea. A strong
cup of breakfast tea will eliminate any free radicals. Buy yourself a
box of cheap ShouMei(SowMee) leaf from Chinatown and don't be afraid of
clogging your teapot. You'll need that much for any taste. The
Yinzhen bud is more expensive with stronger taste and is too sexy for
pots that aren't glass. BaiMudan is both bud and leaf and all things
being equal save your money and stay with the leaf or bud. You might
think of Yinzhen as first flush, BaiMudan second flush, and SowMee the
left overs.

Jim

Bruno Panetta wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I would like to know if is true that white tea has more antioxidants on
> average than green tea.
> Which white teas would you recommend as the healthiest?
> Thanks
>
> Bruno

Bruno Panetta > wrote:
>
>I would like to know if is true that white tea has more antioxidants on
>average than green tea.

I don't know, but can't you titrate it with a reducing indicator and see?
Nothing like measuring it for yourself under your own conditions.

>Which white teas would you recommend as the healthiest?

I don't really like white teas.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> I don't really like white teas.

I share that feeling Scott. I must say I've had anything from a Pai Mu
Dan to Silver Needles, and wouldn't rate any of those amongst my 5 top
favourites. True, a good silver needle can be highly rewarding, but IMO
a good Oolong for the same price is better value. White tea is too
often too mild to offer as an exciting experience as, say, an Oolong or
a Pu Erh.

I've been thinking lately that White teas are way overrated in the
West. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe they make such a
fuss of them in China. Certainly not of Pai Mu Dan, which is way
overpriced in the West, whereas in China it is considered no more than
medium grade tea.

Aloninna
Tel Aviv, Israel
www.ocha.co.il

"Space Cowboy" > writes:

> The assumption the less processing of tea the more nutrients is
> retained. I don't see anything in oxidation that chemically would
> alter the antioxidants. It could be a fully oxidized black tea might
> produce a 'sap' that is left behind in processing but I see no evidence
> of that. I think the amount of antioxidents is determined by
> environmental conditions and not processing. So a tea from India might
> be different in antioxidants than somewhere else. White tea is simply
> dried fast.

Uh, make that "slowly". Were you thinking of green tea?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

I ordered a White Darjeeling that I really enjoyed, never liked the Chinese
whites as much.

But, I've read some places that white teas are the "least processed" but
other that they are semi-fermented like oolongs. Does anyone know? Are
they more like greens or more like oolongs?

Thanks
L

"Lara Burton" > writes:

> I ordered a White Darjeeling that I really enjoyed, never liked the Chinese
> whites as much.
>
> But, I've read some places that white teas are the "least processed" but
> other that they are semi-fermented like oolongs. Does anyone know? Are
> they more like greens or more like oolongs?

Is the color green more like blue or yellow?

White teas are dried slowly, often sun-dried, rather than being
subjected to high heat like greens, so some enzymatic oxidation
occurs. But, unlike oolongs, they aren't kneaded or bruised before
the enzymes get denatured by heating. I would guess that white teas
as a class are less oxidized than anything being sold as an oolong,
but I don't have numbers to back this up.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Scientific data is still in the process of being compiled. A variety
of green, black, and white is probably the healthiest. Avoid sugar.
Toci

On 29 Jul 2005 10:01:39 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Bruno Panetta > wrote:
>>
>>I would like to know if is true that white tea has more antioxidants on
>>average than green tea.
>
> I don't know, but can't you titrate it with a reducing indicator and see?
> Nothing like measuring it for yourself under your own conditions.

Heh. I would do that, but the last thing I tried to titrate took out
the shed in the back yard, as well as my chromatograph.

>>Which white teas would you recommend as the healthiest?
>
> I don't really like white teas.

To everyone, their own.

--
Derek

"Indeed, history is nothing more than a tableau of crimes and
misfortunes." -- Voltaire

"Space Cowboy" > wrote in message
> The assumption the less processing of tea the more nutrients is
> retained. I don't see anything in oxidation that chemically would
> alter the antioxidants. It could be a fully oxidized black tea might
> produce a 'sap' that is left behind in processing but I see no evidence
> of that. I think the amount of antioxidents is determined by
> environmental conditions and not processing.

It's a combination of various factors, Jim.

Environmental conditions and varietal contribute to the 'inherited'
antioxidants in the tea, while processing changes that content - by
increasing certain chemicals and decreasing certain chemicals.

Scientists have concluded that the most effective antioxidant found in tea
is the epigallocatechin gallate (EGCg) a catechin found in polyphenols.
Following is the list of varietals I have extracted for your comparison,
note that they are based on unprocessed fresh leaves.

White Tea varietal: Fuyun no. 7 : L-EGCg (mg/g) : 135.05

Oolong varietal: Daye Wulong : L-EGCg (mg/g) : 97.67

Red (Black) tea varietal: Yunnan Daye varietal: L-EGCg (mg/g) : 112.16
Red (Black) tea varietal: Kenya varietal: L-EGCg (mg/g) : 100.63

I believe that tea generally is a healthy drink, so if you are drinking tea
for health reasons, drink a wide variety of teas, as each tea besides the
wonderful cariety in flavours, also have different properties that will
contribute to the well being on a whole.

If you are seriously going only for the 'healthiest' tea, then I would
recommend rooibos, which we are told, has the highest level of antioxidant,
and virtually no caffeine.

Danny

I don't see oxidation chemically changing very much in tea except the
taste via 'easier' leaching. I suspect the nature of the processing
leaves some desired residue on the factory floor through
cutting,serating,rolling. My local tea shoppe owner says the most
desired tea by workers collects on the ventilation filters(fines de la
creme but he used another term which I forgot). If you follow the
logic the tannic taste is more prominent in black teas than green so
more polyphenols more catechin. The other claim you see for white tea
besides high antioxidents is low caffeine(theine). So all the evidence
points more to environment/varietal than oxidation. White tea from
China is a specific varietal from Fujian besides type of processing. I
drink tea for the taste and if it keeps me alive another day for
another cup it didn't cost me anything. I think the tea industry
should promote the seemingly infinite variety in tea taste rather than
a health drink.

Jim

samarkand wrote:
> "Space Cowboy" > wrote in message
> > The assumption the less processing of tea the more nutrients is
> > retained. I don't see anything in oxidation that chemically would
> > alter the antioxidants. It could be a fully oxidized black tea might
> > produce a 'sap' that is left behind in processing but I see no evidence
> > of that. I think the amount of antioxidents is determined by
> > environmental conditions and not processing.
>
> It's a combination of various factors, Jim.
>
> Environmental conditions and varietal contribute to the 'inherited'
> antioxidants in the tea, while processing changes that content - by
> increasing certain chemicals and decreasing certain chemicals.
>
> Scientists have concluded that the most effective antioxidant found in tea
> is the epigallocatechin gallate (EGCg) a catechin found in polyphenols.
> Following is the list of varietals I have extracted for your comparison,
> note that they are based on unprocessed fresh leaves.
>
> White Tea varietal: Fuyun no. 7 : L-EGCg (mg/g) : 135.05
>
> Oolong varietal: Daye Wulong : L-EGCg (mg/g) : 97.67
>
> Red (Black) tea varietal: Yunnan Daye varietal: L-EGCg (mg/g) : 112.16
> Red (Black) tea varietal: Kenya varietal: L-EGCg (mg/g) : 100.63
>
> I believe that tea generally is a healthy drink, so if you are drinking tea
> for health reasons, drink a wide variety of teas, as each tea besides the
> wonderful cariety in flavours, also have different properties that will
> contribute to the well being on a whole.
>
> If you are seriously going only for the 'healthiest' tea, then I would
> recommend rooibos, which we are told, has the highest level of antioxidant,
> and virtually no caffeine.
>
> Danny

Yinzhen White tea bud is picked early in morning wet with dew. It is
intially dried in the morning with much manual tossing then rolled by
hand when pliable and finally dried in the afternoon sun. This is
known as fast drying. Yellow tea is the same process but dried in the
afternoon shade and overnight with less tossing and more bruising.
This is known as slow drying. An industrial mechanical drying process
using 40c known as baking is also used. Green tea is allowed to wither
a full 24 hours before processing.

A little article on Ceylon White tea:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3686290.stm

Notice the type of jar which is becoming typical at least for Chinese
commerical teas along with the nitrogen packs.

Jim

Lewis Perin wrote:
> "Space Cowboy" > writes:
>
> > The assumption the less processing of tea the more nutrients is
> > retained. I don't see anything in oxidation that chemically would
> > alter the antioxidants. It could be a fully oxidized black tea might
> > produce a 'sap' that is left behind in processing but I see no evidence
> > of that. I think the amount of antioxidents is determined by
> > environmental conditions and not processing. So a tea from India might
> > be different in antioxidants than somewhere else. White tea is simply
> > dried fast.
>
> Uh, make that "slowly". Were you thinking of green tea?
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
> http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Yin Zhen White Tea (bai hao yin zhen) is mainly harvested from the
fujian province (there are white tea trees planting in Guangxi and
Guizhou as well, but the tea taste is not the same as the original one
from fujian). The white tea from the fujian province is considered to
be the best.

The processing of the Bai Hao Yin Zhen is classified into: picking -
withering - baking - cleaning - re baking. The processing change
according to the producing area.

Fuding county: place the freshing tea in thin layer and get dried under
the sun. Dried in the sun for one day till the tea is around 80 ~90%
dried. Turn to the baking step with using temperature at 30 ~40 degree
C.

Zheng He county: for the withering step, there are 2 differents way but
the baking step is similar as the one from Fuding county.
- way 1: place the fresh tea in thin layer and withering in a fresh,
shaded with weak sunlight place. When the tea is 70 ~ 80% dried, swith
the tea under the strong sun and sundry the leaves totally. This step
takes 2 ~ 3 days.
- way 2: place the fresh leaves in thin layer and get dried under the
sun (2 ~ 3 hours before noon). Move the tea in a fresh and shaded place
and get dried with the wind.

The quality of the Bai Hao Yin Zhen is mainly set in the picking day.
When the picking day is sunny and blowing north wind, the finishing tea
holds white bud and green branch, good quality. When the picking day is
humid ot raining and blowing south wind, the finishing tea holds darker
color and the branch is quite brown/dark, lower quality.

Fuding white tea holds a very good looking appearance, and has more
hairs on the buds. However, the tea taste is rather weak and holds a
green touch. This one is the the most popular white tea that is selling
in the west and also asia. The price of the fuding white tea is also
cheaper.
Zheng He white tea doesn't have an appearance as lovely as the fuding
white tea. But, the tea taste is much more complex and tasty. It is
pure and rich, and it can be brewed for at least 5 times, which is much
more than the fuding white tea as well. Because the production of the
Zheng He white tea is quite limited, it is harder to find cmopare to
the Fuding white tea. Therefore, the price of the Zheng he white tea is
higher.
If you haven't experienced a complex and rich white tea, maybe should
go and look for a Zheng He white tea. Just the liquor shows the
difference!

BTW, the processing of the yellow tea is more similar to the green tea
than the white tea, which the processing doesn't include the withering
step. The processing of the yellow tea is classified into: Sha Qing -
Men Huang (this is the unique step of the yellow tea to allow to get
the yellow leaves and yellow liquor) - Drying (baking or firing).

Jing

I have some very lovely looking white tea I got from a friend. I suspect,
from your description, it's Fuding. It' is a beautiful leaf, lots of little
hairs, 2 buds, all in a perfect shape. It was so lovely, I expected much
more from the flavor. It was weak, and green. And from what my friend tells
me, it was very inexpensive. I may keep it on hand just for display, it's so
pretty, and the flavor so dissapointing.

> Fuding white tea holds a very good looking appearance, and has more
> hairs on the buds. However, the tea taste is rather weak and holds a
> green touch. This one is the the most popular white tea that is selling
> in the west and also asia. The price of the fuding white tea is also
> cheaper.

Also SEb, may I quote this post in my blog?

"SEb" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Yin Zhen White Tea (bai hao yin zhen) is mainly harvested from the
> fujian province (there are white tea trees planting in Guangxi and
> Guizhou as well, but the tea taste is not the same as the original one
> from fujian). The white tea from the fujian province is considered to
> be the best.
>
> The processing of the Bai Hao Yin Zhen is classified into: picking -
> withering - baking - cleaning - re baking. The processing change
> according to the producing area.
>
> Fuding county: place the freshing tea in thin layer and get dried under
> the sun. Dried in the sun for one day till the tea is around 80 ~90%
> dried. Turn to the baking step with using temperature at 30 ~40 degree
> C.
>
> Zheng He county: for the withering step, there are 2 differents way but
> the baking step is similar as the one from Fuding county.
> - way 1: place the fresh tea in thin layer and withering in a fresh,
> shaded with weak sunlight place. When the tea is 70 ~ 80% dried, swith
> the tea under the strong sun and sundry the leaves totally. This step
> takes 2 ~ 3 days.
> - way 2: place the fresh leaves in thin layer and get dried under the
> sun (2 ~ 3 hours before noon). Move the tea in a fresh and shaded place
> and get dried with the wind.
>
> The quality of the Bai Hao Yin Zhen is mainly set in the picking day.
> When the picking day is sunny and blowing north wind, the finishing tea
> holds white bud and green branch, good quality. When the picking day is
> humid ot raining and blowing south wind, the finishing tea holds darker
> color and the branch is quite brown/dark, lower quality.
>
> Fuding white tea holds a very good looking appearance, and has more
> hairs on the buds. However, the tea taste is rather weak and holds a
> green touch. This one is the the most popular white tea that is selling
> in the west and also asia. The price of the fuding white tea is also
> cheaper.
> Zheng He white tea doesn't have an appearance as lovely as the fuding
> white tea. But, the tea taste is much more complex and tasty. It is
> pure and rich, and it can be brewed for at least 5 times, which is much
> more than the fuding white tea as well. Because the production of the
> Zheng He white tea is quite limited, it is harder to find cmopare to
> the Fuding white tea. Therefore, the price of the Zheng he white tea is
> higher.
> If you haven't experienced a complex and rich white tea, maybe should
> go and look for a Zheng He white tea. Just the liquor shows the
> difference!
>
> BTW, the processing of the yellow tea is more similar to the green tea
> than the white tea, which the processing doesn't include the withering
> step. The processing of the yellow tea is classified into: Sha Qing -
> Men Huang (this is the unique step of the yellow tea to allow to get
> the yellow leaves and yellow liquor) - Drying (baking or firing).
>
> Jing
>

"Space Cowboy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Yinzhen White tea bud is picked early in morning wet with dew. It is
> intially dried in the morning with much manual tossing then rolled by
> hand when pliable and finally dried in the afternoon sun. This is
> known as fast drying. Yellow tea is the same process but dried in the
> afternoon shade and overnight with less tossing and more bruising.
> This is known as slow drying. An industrial mechanical drying process
> using 40c known as baking is also used. Green tea is allowed to wither
> a full 24 hours before processing.
>
Hi Jim,

Wrong info you have got there...

Danny

"Space Cowboy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I don't see oxidation chemically changing very much in tea except the
> taste via 'easier' leaching. I suspect the nature of the processing
> leaves some desired residue on the factory floor through
> cutting,serating,rolling. My local tea shoppe owner says the most
> desired tea by workers collects on the ventilation filters(fines de la
> creme but he used another term which I forgot). If you follow the
> logic the tannic taste is more prominent in black teas than green so
> more polyphenols more catechin. The other claim you see for white tea
> besides high antioxidents is low caffeine(theine). So all the evidence
> points more to environment/varietal than oxidation. White tea from
> China is a specific varietal from Fujian besides type of processing. I
> drink tea for the taste and if it keeps me alive another day for
> another cup it didn't cost me anything. I think the tea industry
> should promote the seemingly infinite variety in tea taste rather than
> a health drink.
>
> Jim
>
Hi Jim,

I don't understand your statement.

Oxidation when it is applied to tea processing is divided into 2 stages in
Chinese terms, as Withering and Fermentation - though we now know the last
should be known as Oxidation; however, it is not correct to think that
Oxidation only begins in that stage, where the leaves are thrown about to
cause some bruising which further breaks down the interal chemical structure
of the tea and provide the flavour which we know as oolong.

Withering actually kicks off the oxidation stage, though mild. It is
activated by the enzyme present in the leaf as it loses water while
withering and shrinks, causing slight friction among the shrinking cells and
the bounded chemicals. This is known as auto-oxidation, and is present in
the making of white and oolong teas.

>If you follow the
> logic the tannic taste is more prominent in black teas than green so
> more polyphenols more catechin.

That is not wholly correct. The prominent tannic taste in black teas come
from more factors other than polyphenols and catechins (if that is the case,
than An Ji Bai Cha should taste completely bitter, as it has the highest in
polyphenol count). Other than the varital stock chosen for black tea (when
the polyphenol and caffeine counts are in high counts), it is also the
processing that brings out the tannic taste, caffeine has to bind with
theaflavin, the increase in theophylline, and asparagine etc, during the
fermentation period. So if you take green tea and process it as black tea,
you'll probably end with a cup of tea that's full of bite, though not as
much as one that's made from a good black tea varital.

Danny

Space Cowboy wrote:
> The assumption the less processing of tea the more nutrients is
> retained. I don't see anything in oxidation that chemically would
> alter the antioxidants.

Hallo??? Don't oxidants and antioxidants cancel one another out??
that's what they should teach you in 5th grade chemistry.

Bruno

>
> Space Cowboy wrote:
>> The assumption the less processing of tea the more nutrients is
>> retained. I don't see anything in oxidation that chemically would
>> alter the antioxidants.
>
> Hallo??? Don't oxidants and antioxidants cancel one another out??
> that's what they should teach you in 5th grade chemistry.
>
> Bruno
>

Heh! They teach that in 5th grade chemistry?! Knew I should have listen in
class...

Danny

Actually the outline was essentially correct compared to the
information provided by Jing. He says the 40c baking process is normal
but I understand it to be different than the manual Orthodox method. I
also understand the morning dew to be more desirable than adding
steaming later on. This is a necessary requirement for the rolling of
the buds.

Jim

samarkand wrote:
> "Space Cowboy" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Yinzhen White tea bud is picked early in morning wet with dew. It is
> > intially dried in the morning with much manual tossing then rolled by
> > hand when pliable and finally dried in the afternoon sun. This is
> > known as fast drying. Yellow tea is the same process but dried in the
> > afternoon shade and overnight with less tossing and more bruising.
> > This is known as slow drying. An industrial mechanical drying process
> > using 40c known as baking is also used. Green tea is allowed to wither
> > a full 24 hours before processing.
> >
> Hi Jim,
>
> Wrong info you have got there...
>
> Danny

Still the chemistry of oxidation doesn't add or subtract. I understand
oxidation can change the taste but you don't end up with more caffeine
or polyphenols. I still assert it is more varietal than oxidation that
determines the taste of tea. What we call tannins are concentrations
of polyphenols and catechins which are easier leached after oxidation.
I've give your assertion there is some bonding from enzymes but nothing
that adds up to much. You saturate a cup of green tea long enough
it'll taste just like any black made from the same leaf. Your taste
buds can detect changes that essentially aren't measureable in a
laboratory. That's all you're doing with oxidation or any form of
cooking.

Jim

samarkand wrote:
> "Space Cowboy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >I don't see oxidation chemically changing very much in tea except the
> > taste via 'easier' leaching. I suspect the nature of the processing
> > leaves some desired residue on the factory floor through
> > cutting,serating,rolling. My local tea shoppe owner says the most
> > desired tea by workers collects on the ventilation filters(fines de la
> > creme but he used another term which I forgot). If you follow the
> > logic the tannic taste is more prominent in black teas than green so
> > more polyphenols more catechin. The other claim you see for white tea
> > besides high antioxidents is low caffeine(theine). So all the evidence
> > points more to environment/varietal than oxidation. White tea from
> > China is a specific varietal from Fujian besides type of processing. I
> > drink tea for the taste and if it keeps me alive another day for
> > another cup it didn't cost me anything. I think the tea industry
> > should promote the seemingly infinite variety in tea taste rather than
> > a health drink.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> Hi Jim,
>
> I don't understand your statement.
>
> Oxidation when it is applied to tea processing is divided into 2 stages in
> Chinese terms, as Withering and Fermentation - though we now know the last
> should be known as Oxidation; however, it is not correct to think that
> Oxidation only begins in that stage, where the leaves are thrown about to
> cause some bruising which further breaks down the interal chemical structure
> of the tea and provide the flavour which we know as oolong.
>
> Withering actually kicks off the oxidation stage, though mild. It is
> activated by the enzyme present in the leaf as it loses water while
> withering and shrinks, causing slight friction among the shrinking cells and
> the bounded chemicals. This is known as auto-oxidation, and is present in
> the making of white and oolong teas.
>
> >If you follow the
> > logic the tannic taste is more prominent in black teas than green so
> > more polyphenols more catechin.
>
> That is not wholly correct. The prominent tannic taste in black teas come
> from more factors other than polyphenols and catechins (if that is the case,
> than An Ji Bai Cha should taste completely bitter, as it has the highest in
> polyphenol count). Other than the varital stock chosen for black tea (when
> the polyphenol and caffeine counts are in high counts), it is also the
> processing that brings out the tannic taste, caffeine has to bind with
> theaflavin, the increase in theophylline, and asparagine etc, during the
> fermentation period. So if you take green tea and process it as black tea,
> you'll probably end with a cup of tea that's full of bite, though not as
> much as one that's made from a good black tea varital.
>
> Danny

"Space Cowboy" > writes:

> Still the chemistry of oxidation doesn't add or subtract. I understand
> oxidation can change the taste but you don't end up with more caffeine
> or polyphenols. I still assert it is more varietal than oxidation that
> determines the taste of tea.

There's a red/black tea made from the same Zhenghe varietal normally
used for white tea. It's delicious, but radically different in taste
from the white.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On 2005-07-30, Space Cowboy > wrote:
> If you follow the logic the tannic taste is more prominent in black
> teas than green so more polyphenols more catechin.

You are equating "polyphenols" with "catechin"; there are others in
tea, and in oolong/black tea, they are mostly formed by oxidizing
catechins.

> I don't see oxidation chemically changing very much in tea except the
> taste via 'easier' leaching.

Rolling/tossing allows the polyphenol oxidase and the catechins to
mix; the catechins are oxidized and combine to form thearubigins and
theaflavins until the enzyme is stopped by steaming/firing. The
catechin oxidation can happen in your cup, too, when you (accidentally
<grin>) leave a cup of green tea sitting till it turns dark. That
isn't extra catechins leaching out till they look dark; it's the
catechins' turning into different polyphenols with different chemical
and optical properties.

Nigel's talked about this befo
<URI:http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.drink.tea/msg/4eae71a6ab205fdc>
<URI:http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.drink.tea/msg/1501cf79e3739bea>
<URI:http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.drink.tea/msg/ecc7e5d9dbd43e73>

And there's a blurb with reference on the LPI's tea page:
<URI:http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/phytochemicals/tea/>

> The other claim you see for white tea besides high antioxidents is
> low caffeine(theine).

Shou mei and bai mu dan white teas are pretty bold, so it's hard to
use 3g per cup. Add to that leaf size, varietal differences, terroir,
infusion time, water temperature.... While it's plausible that a
serving of (suitably prepared) white tea could have less caffeine than
a serving of a (suitably prepared) black tea, it's pretty meaningless
unless what is being said is tied down a lot better.

E.g., for the pot of New Vithanakande (Ceylon black) I made yesterday,
i used 3.8g tea for 48oz water (with a long infusion; very pleasant).
Let's say it has 2.8% caffeine by mass (Holy Mountain's old number for
Kenilworth OP) and assume all of it extracts. The whole pot had just
106mg of caffeine. So each 8 oz of that had 18mg caffeine, comparable
to what is claimed for white tea (by Stash, say). :-P

> I drink tea for the taste and if it keeps me alive another day for
> another cup it didn't cost me anything.

Agreed!


N.

> retained. I don't see anything in oxidation that chemically would
> alter the antioxidants.

Interesting position

Analyzing the brew chemically you probably couldn't tell one from the
other ie both will fall into a standard deviation. The chemical
analysis of a cooked(oxidation) versus raw vegetable would be the same.
When I speak of tastebuds it is not a specious argument. They're more
sensitive than almost any laboratory equipment. Your taste buds can
taste anything a dog can smell and things a dog can't smell. I knew
watching the Food Network isn't a waste of time. The difference in
taste is minutia and not quantitative. Oxidation simply breaks down
the cells for easier leaching of the nutrients which is what you taste
as the difference.

Jim

Lewis Perin wrote:
> "Space Cowboy" > writes:
>
> > Still the chemistry of oxidation doesn't add or subtract. I understand
> > oxidation can change the taste but you don't end up with more caffeine
> > or polyphenols. I still assert it is more varietal than oxidation that
> > determines the taste of tea.
>
> There's a red/black tea made from the same Zhenghe varietal normally
> used for white tea. It's delicious, but radically different in taste
> from the white.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
> http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

The chemical analysis of any leaf green, oolong, black is still the
cultivar. Oxidation won't change any measureable chemical footprint.
Statements like green tea contains the highest amount of catechins and
EGCG, black tea contains the highest amount of theaflavin, oolong tea
highest amount of polyphenol from oxidation is misleading. Any leaf
will possess all three and all you can say is the proportions of any
given cultivar and not the processing type. And the only way you would
know any difference at all is applied differential chemisty using only
given test samples. If you found a drop of tea at a crime scene you
probably couldn't tell what it was because the water signature itself
would interfere with the analysis. I don't know of any study that
relates chemical analysis to tea taste. The only one mentioned is the
taste of tannins or what we call astringency which is simply a function
of brewing time, leaf grade and type. Leaf grade and leaching of
nutrients is more reflective of tea taste than any chemcial change
through oxidation which at best is statistically insignificant in the
laboratory but not the tastebuds. I argue oxidation does change the
taste of tea but nothing we can account for chemically except the taste
of tannins which is typical of any vegetable when it is overcooked.
You can't make a decent cup of tea using chemistry.

Jim

Natarajan Krishnaswami wrote:
> On 2005-07-30, Space Cowboy > wrote:
> > If you follow the logic the tannic taste is more prominent in black
> > teas than green so more polyphenols more catechin.
>
> You are equating "polyphenols" with "catechin"; there are others in
> tea, and in oolong/black tea, they are mostly formed by oxidizing
> catechins.
>
> > I don't see oxidation chemically changing very much in tea except the
> > taste via 'easier' leaching.
>
> Rolling/tossing allows the polyphenol oxidase and the catechins to
> mix; the catechins are oxidized and combine to form thearubigins and
> theaflavins until the enzyme is stopped by steaming/firing. The
> catechin oxidation can happen in your cup, too, when you (accidentally
> <grin>) leave a cup of green tea sitting till it turns dark. That
> isn't extra catechins leaching out till they look dark; it's the
> catechins' turning into different polyphenols with different chemical
> and optical properties.
>
> Nigel's talked about this befo
> <URI:http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.drink.tea/msg/4eae71a6ab205fdc>
> <URI:http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.drink.tea/msg/1501cf79e3739bea>
> <URI:http://groups.google.com/group/rec.food.drink.tea/msg/ecc7e5d9dbd43e73>
>
> And there's a blurb with reference on the LPI's tea page:
> <URI:http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/phytochemicals/tea/>
>
> > The other claim you see for white tea besides high antioxidents is
> > low caffeine(theine).
>
> Shou mei and bai mu dan white teas are pretty bold, so it's hard to
> use 3g per cup. Add to that leaf size, varietal differences, terroir,
> infusion time, water temperature.... While it's plausible that a
> serving of (suitably prepared) white tea could have less caffeine than
> a serving of a (suitably prepared) black tea, it's pretty meaningless
> unless what is being said is tied down a lot better.
>
> E.g., for the pot of New Vithanakande (Ceylon black) I made yesterday,
> i used 3.8g tea for 48oz water (with a long infusion; very pleasant).
> Let's say it has 2.8% caffeine by mass (Holy Mountain's old number for
> Kenilworth OP) and assume all of it extracts. The whole pot had just
> 106mg of caffeine. So each 8 oz of that had 18mg caffeine, comparable
> to what is claimed for white tea (by Stash, say). :-P
>
> > I drink tea for the taste and if it keeps me alive another day for
> > another cup it didn't cost me anything.
>
> Agreed!
>
>
> N.

"Space Cowboy" > writes:

> The chemical analysis of any leaf green, oolong, black is still the
> cultivar. Oxidation won't change any measureable chemical
> footprint.

Huh?

> Statements like green tea contains the highest amount of catechins and
> EGCG, black tea contains the highest amount of theaflavin, oolong tea
> highest amount of polyphenol from oxidation is misleading. Any leaf
> will possess all three and all you can say is the proportions of any
> given cultivar and not the processing type.

No, both the cultivar and the processing influence what ends up in the cup.

> And the only way you would know any difference at all is applied
> differential chemisty using only given test samples. If you found a
> drop of tea at a crime scene you probably couldn't tell what it was
> because the water signature itself would interfere with the
> analysis. I don't know of any study that relates chemical analysis
> to tea taste.

There is a scholarly literature on this, actually. I don't pretend to
mastery of this field, but there is published scientific work on
the chemistry of tea components influencing perceived taste and aroma.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

"aloninna" > writes:

> Scott Dorsey wrote:
> > I don't really like white teas.
>
> I share that feeling Scott. I must say I've had anything from a Pai Mu
> Dan to Silver Needles, and wouldn't rate any of those amongst my 5 top
> favourites. True, a good silver needle can be highly rewarding, but IMO
> a good Oolong for the same price is better value. White tea is too
> often too mild to offer as an exciting experience as, say, an Oolong or
> a Pu Erh.

I've drunk a lot of Yunnan white tea in the last several months. The
tea has been from two different vendors, and both teas are bud-only.
I've had beautiful results from both teas treating them more or less
like oolongs, with temperatures higher than I'd use on greens,
getting many steeps of gradually increasing length. These teas are
mild, in that they're neither bitter nor astringent, but they're also
rich, with a soft mouth feel and a sweetness that persists for as many
six steeps or more, sometimes reminding me of caramel or butterscotch.

> I've been thinking lately that White teas are way overrated in the
> West. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe they make such a
> fuss of them in China. Certainly not of Pai Mu Dan, which is way
> overpriced in the West, whereas in China it is considered no more than
> medium grade tea.

Maybe the white-tea-panacea fad is distorting prices. Maybe, if you
develop a taste for white tea, you should try to get it from China.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

It took me twenty years to finish my first box of 100g SowMee. I was
so impressed I recently bought another. Boy have the prices changed
from $2 to $6 Just a couple of months ago I also bought my first
BaiMudan and spent some time comparing the two tastes. I couldn't tell
the difference to justify the much more expensive price of the latter
but developed an appreciation of the SowMee perse. I agree it has a
pleasant aftertaste but I describe it as scotch or bottom of barrel
like a bock. I can load up my pot with about 25% leaf and drink it all
day with refills. The last few pots become slushy and clog any
filters. Since my filters have been retrofited near the lid of my
teapress I just rinse with tap water before pouring. I don't drink
Yinzhen regularly but I keep it on hand to impress friends or myself
when I get tired of all the hoopla about the pu. I can't think of a
more honest tea in the sense the taste is more primal because
processing hasn't changed it very much. If I'm a monk this is my tea
because the taste is complexly simple. I brew a pot of white tea and a
pot of the pu and imagine all the teas in between and realized Darwin
could have stayed at home and came to the same conclusions. I think my
late appreciation for white tea are like some others that have escaped
my attention over the decades because I thought it was an intellectual
exercise in acquiring knowledge. Drinking tea is discovery of yourself
given enough time and I'm just starting to get the hang of it till
another revelation that I've been blowing smoke up my own ... and have
to change course again.

Jim

Lewis Perin wrote:
> "aloninna" > writes:
>
> > Scott Dorsey wrote:
> > > I don't really like white teas.
> >
> > I share that feeling Scott. I must say I've had anything from a Pai Mu
> > Dan to Silver Needles, and wouldn't rate any of those amongst my 5 top
> > favourites. True, a good silver needle can be highly rewarding, but IMO
> > a good Oolong for the same price is better value. White tea is too
> > often too mild to offer as an exciting experience as, say, an Oolong or
> > a Pu Erh.
>
> I've drunk a lot of Yunnan white tea in the last several months. The
> tea has been from two different vendors, and both teas are bud-only.
> I've had beautiful results from both teas treating them more or less
> like oolongs, with temperatures higher than I'd use on greens,
> getting many steeps of gradually increasing length. These teas are
> mild, in that they're neither bitter nor astringent, but they're also
> rich, with a soft mouth feel and a sweetness that persists for as many
> six steeps or more, sometimes reminding me of caramel or butterscotch.
>
> > I've been thinking lately that White teas are way overrated in the
> > West. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe they make such a
> > fuss of them in China. Certainly not of Pai Mu Dan, which is way
> > overpriced in the West, whereas in China it is considered no more than
> > medium grade tea.
>
> Maybe the white-tea-panacea fad is distorting prices. Maybe, if you
> develop a taste for white tea, you should try to get it from China.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
> http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html