Hi,

I've been haunting this group for a little while now. So I've decided
to ask a question and introduce myself. I've recently gotten into tea a
couple of months ago and as of now I have two yixing tea pots. One
little 6oz pot that I use for wulong and a 10oz pot I use for Chinese
red teas, lapsang souchong, European blends and other dark teas. It's
kinda my catch-all pot. I recently got a sample of puerh and I think
they should have their own pot. Does anyone have any suggestions as to
what size pot I should use and where I could find a good one?

Robert

Anything touched by Lapsang Souchong is forever Lapsang Souchong.

Sasha.

"Robert Gill" > wrote in message
tte.lan...
> Hi,
>
> I've been haunting this group for a little while now. So I've decided
> to ask a question and introduce myself. I've recently gotten into tea a
> couple of months ago and as of now I have two yixing tea pots. One
> little 6oz pot that I use for wulong and a 10oz pot I use for Chinese
> red teas, lapsang souchong, European blends and other dark teas. It's
> kinda my catch-all pot. I recently got a sample of puerh and I think
> they should have their own pot. Does anyone have any suggestions as to
> what size pot I should use and where I could find a good one?
>
> Robert

Hello Gill,
I have been watching this and other newsletters for some time, but have been too busy to be active, so this is a bit of an introduction for me as well. I am an American businessman who lives in China, my wife and family here are Cantonese, and I make my living selling tea, teaware, art, and other things of Chinese origin. I have recently begun putting together a web site to expand my company into the states. Nuff said on that end.

In response to your query I have a few things to say and can probably help you out. First of all, there is a substantial amount of good information on tea, teapots, etcetera in the states but... the amount of misinformation, myth, and fallacy circulating is also epidemic. I can tell by your post that you are a beginner so bear with me a moment while I comment on your dilema. It is not uncommon. There are many things about tea and teapots that are almost impossible to learn outside of China. In all likelihood you are using poor teapots and tea. Don't feel bad. Most people cannot tell a good tea from a bad one and the same goes for teapots. Most people don't even realize that GongFuCha is the only way to actually all the health benefits of tea they so highly value (most brewing destroys these things or never makes them available even when you start with a good tea). There are far too many things to say about this for a post like this. More later if you wish.

One of the things I will be offering on the website is a series of e-books that explain good tea, teapots, and GonFuCha in detail and how an American (or anyone else) can get the highest quality and not get ripped off. I will also have a selection of 100 teapots I give away for only a five dollar handling charge and shipping. These teapots currently sell for 50-100 dollars US on line (cheaper teapots are an almost guaranteed rip off). I do this to make a point. Most people are getting ripped off. I will also be giving away cakes of good investment Puer on the same basis. Same point. The books will come out over the next several months as I complete the surveys, finish the site, and make sure the business is ready for the market.

Now to how I may be able to help you out. I have a small collection of teapots (not my personal collection) I have used to create the visual portion of the e-book for how to know the "perfect teapot". I collect and sell teapots, so I often have a good seasoned teapot for sale. More to the point, one of the teapots I used for the e-book is an exceptional teapot I currently use for my own Puer (my personal favorite tea). This teapot is one of four matching teapots I used for comparison purposes. As a matter of fact XiaoLing (my wife) is using it to pao Puer for me while I write this. It is a traditional eight jewel yixing four cup done by the ChaoZhou artist Chang Tai Yuan. It is almost perfect (98%). The other three are copies of his work that are exceptional, but seriously fail at least one test for a perfect pot. There is a twelve animal, dragon/phoenix, and four season in the less than perfect pot group. The less than perfect group are also four cup pots and their flaws will have little effect on brewing tea. The flaws are in such things as the handwork of the art, though they do have very minor brewing flaws (they are still far superior to what most Americans pao tea in). Most people couldn't tell any quality difference between them and the perfect pot. As I said, the eight jewel is Puer seasoned, but the only other one that is seasoned is the dragon/phoenix (Tie Guan Yin). My wifes' favorite tea.

I intend to value pots significantly different to what most are used to seeing in the states. I will give you the benefit of that, but don't be surprised that these are not "cheap" teapots. Teapots like the almost perfect eight jewel sell in the states for 500-1k US. Mine is priced at $250 US plus shipping and insurance (I strongly suggest that you insure it). The not perfect (but very high quality copies) would normally be presented as being the same as the eight jewel in the states, but priced as bargains for between 300-1k US (sucks but true). I value mine at 50-100 dollars US plus shipping and insurance depending on the quality of the pot. I only sell high quality pots. I give the other stuff away(you only get really good tea from them by accident anyway). If you buy one of my pots I send you a cake of good quality "green" Menghai Puer that is suitable for investment. That means that if properly stored it will be worth 200-400 dollars (at current American market prices) in 2-4 years. If you can keep from drinking it that long. It will be pretty good tea in a year or two.

I know some people may scream when they see these prices, but it is true that truly high quality teapots rarely leave China and when they do its often an accident. Even the worst potters and factories (most yixing teapots sold in the states are factory regardless of what anyone says) accidentally produce a good teapot from time to time. Some factories manage to produce teapots that are reasonably consistant in their brewing capacities. It is impossible to completely test a teapot for full quality, however, in a factory and I know of none who test at all. Only hand made teapots by competent artists are consistantly high quality. You will pay for that anywhere in the world.

By the way. Factory teapots are all industrial grade clay (thats right, there is more than one grade of yixing clay and many varieties of both grades) which means the brewing quality of the pots made from it are substandard before it even becomes a pot.

I hope I have not discouraged you too much. Drinking good tea is a great pleasure in life that can bring you a great deal of contentment. If you become educated you can even make a good living anywhere people drink tea (the only thing in the world people drink more than tea is water). The reason I am getting into the American market is to help people do just that. Be educated and content in a profitable (in many ways) pursuit of good tea. Let me know if you are interested in the pots or just have some questions. I intend to be consistantly active here. And good luck with your search. I hope you learn to enjoy and appreciate "good" tea as much as I have.

My understanding is that smaller tea pots are considered superior. Why
this is I don't know. Perhaps because the greater ratio of surface area
to volume assures greater absorbtion of flavours in the clay. Who
knows.

My recomendation is to try to find your tea pot in an asian market. My
experience is that they are substantially cheaper there than in the
upscale or online vendors where they are usually to be found. It's
usually hit and miss in these places. You are also unlikely to find
more elaborately designed ones. I recently picked up a whole yixing set
for $25. Pretty standard, but it work. Just make sure to season it good
(see other postings for seasing tips!).

Best Regards,
Nico

Alex igy.com6/20/05


> Anything touched by Lapsang Souchong is forever Lapsang Souchong.
>
> Sasha.


Hear Here!!!

Just got in from work and saw your post Nico. You are right about smaller teapots being preferable, but I have to disagree on the pot purchase idea. Espeacially if Robert wants to brew good quality puer.

Small teapots are preferable for brewing properly. Any yixing clay will absorb flavor and a seperate teapot for each type you drink is a good idea. The reason small teapots are preferable is all brewing related. Yixing clay has specific heat retention qualities and the pots were designed to maximize this benefit in GonFuCha. Good ones are not glazed because it ruins these qualities. The best ones are two to six cup pots that are thin walled. They need to be thin walled so there is not enough clay to cause thermal lag to also ruin the heat retention (and therefore brewing) quality of the pot. Good quality clay in a good pot will have a good high "ring" when you tap the lid on the handle. It needs to be small because if you pao your tea correctly you can only serve so many people before your time consumption in serving affects the tea adversely.

Someone who can pao tea well and has a good pot will get consistant brewing results with better tea and use less tea to get more quality paos. A cheap pot is not a bargain as it uses more tea for fewer paos and gives inconsistant brewing which makes it impossible to consistantly brew tea to its average (let alone fullest) potential. It is also hard to learn how to pao tea well (or appreciate the brew) without a good pot. You will miss some very good teas as well if they are incorrectly brewed and you can do nothing about it because of your pot.

There is a lot more to it, though it is not complicated. Its just not commonly known in the states. Basically, what i'm saying is that for a serious tea drinker investing in a good pot and learning to pao with it is almost essential and nothing compared to what they will spend in the years ahead on guessing about tea.

I hope my comments are helpful. I'm not trying to sell upscale teapots for a fast buck. The set you are talking about is probably like many sets you can buy in any supermarket in Zhuhai where I live. Mostly new couples or young people buy them when they can't afford anything else. They are factory made, industrial quality yixing, cost about 25 RMB ($3 US), and are discarded as soon as they can afford better. I'm not trying to be insulting. Just the opposite. Most Americans simply don't know. I'm just trying to help. I have many Chinese relatives (some of whom have asian markets in the states) and those folks are not trying to rip you off either. They simply sell what people ask for and no one knows how to ask for a good pot.

Sincerely, Dan

Renny wrote:
>If you buy one of my pots I send you a cake of good quality
> "green" Menghai Puer that is suitable for investment. That means that
> if properly stored it will be worth 200-400 dollars (at current
> American market prices) in 2-4 years. If you can keep from drinking it
> that long. It will be pretty good tea in a year or two.

Renny, now it is you who is spreading misinformation. There is now way
that a 2-4 year old green cake of authentic Menghai, yes I know there
are many fakes, would sell for $200-$400 here. There *may* be a few
vendors dishonest enough to try to do that but they are clearly ripping
people off. I do not know where you are getting your "American Market
Prices" from but you are being misled if this is what you believe.

Your information on teapots is much more believable and in line with
what I have learned from other sources. What is your website address
please?

Sincerely,
Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
"This Web Site chronicles a Westerner's quest to discover, and publish,
the truth about Puerh. I attempt to dispel the myths, and educate the
English speaking public, about this wonderful and mysterious variety of
tea."

> wrote:
>knows.
>
>My recomendation is to try to find your tea pot in an asian market. My
>experience is that they are substantially cheaper there than in the
>upscale or online vendors where they are usually to be found. It's
>usually hit and miss in these places. You are also unlikely to find
>more elaborately designed ones. I recently picked up a whole yixing set
>for $25. Pretty standard, but it work. Just make sure to season it good
>(see other postings for seasing tips!).

You should be aware that what you have is _probably_ not a real yixing pot.
Most of the inexpensive pots out there are not.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

writes:

> My understanding is that smaller tea pots are considered superior. Why
> this is I don't know. Perhaps because the greater ratio of surface area
> to volume assures greater absorbtion of flavours in the clay. Who
> knows.

In brewing Puerh, I think the answer is simple. You're going to get
*lots* of steeps if the tea's any good, so you probably want a small
brewing vessel unless you're severely dehydrated.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Renny > writes:

> [...]
>
> Most people don't even realize that GongFuCha is the only way to
> actually

(Insert your favorite verb here, I suppose)

> all the health benefits of tea they so highly value (most brewing
> destroys these things or never makes them available even when you
> start with a good tea).

I'm having trouble thinking of a way to complete this sentence to make
it true. Any suggestions?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On 20 Jun 2005 12:11:07 -0400
Lewis Perin > wrote:

> Renny > writes:
>
> > [...]
> >
> > Most people don't even realize that GongFuCha is the only way to
> > actually
>
> (Insert your favorite verb here, I suppose)
>
> > all the health benefits of tea they so highly value (most brewing
> > destroys these things or never makes them available even when you
> > start with a good tea).
>
> I'm having trouble thinking of a way to complete this sentence to make
> it true. Any suggestions?


I think the only failsafe method of getting all the health benefits from
your pu-erh or any other tea is to pulverize it into a fine powder and
snort it up your nose.

I can get a red clay gongfu set teapot,gaiwan,cups,boat with tray for
$10. I've seen the cheap yixing sets with four cups, 100ml pot and
bamboo style serving tray for $30. It's not the desired zisha. You
can buy cheap yixing clay made from factory molds. My local art museum
still carries certified yixing pots in the $30-$100 range. You pay
more for the potter's mark than the clay.

Jim

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> > wrote:
> >knows.
> >
> >My recomendation is to try to find your tea pot in an asian market. My
> >experience is that they are substantially cheaper there than in the
> >upscale or online vendors where they are usually to be found. It's
> >usually hit and miss in these places. You are also unlikely to find
> >more elaborately designed ones. I recently picked up a whole yixing set
> >for $25. Pretty standard, but it work. Just make sure to season it good
> >(see other postings for seasing tips!).
>
> You should be aware that what you have is _probably_ not a real yixing pot.
> Most of the inexpensive pots out there are not.
> --scott

TaoBao sells mid nineties Menghai for $30. In general you add a buck a
year to the original price for each year of aging. The really
expensive pu on TaoBao is from limited production and not aging. If
you pay more than penny/gram for pu'rh then caveat emptor. Then is
still plenty of Xiaguan Millennium 100g green tuocha in Chinatown for a
buck.

Jim

Mike Petro wrote:
> Renny wrote:
> >If you buy one of my pots I send you a cake of good quality
> > "green" Menghai Puer that is suitable for investment. That means that
> > if properly stored it will be worth 200-400 dollars (at current
> > American market prices) in 2-4 years. If you can keep from drinking it
> > that long. It will be pretty good tea in a year or two.
>
> Renny, now it is you who is spreading misinformation. There is now way
> that a 2-4 year old green cake of authentic Menghai, yes I know there
> are many fakes, would sell for $200-$400 here. There *may* be a few
> vendors dishonest enough to try to do that but they are clearly ripping
> people off. I do not know where you are getting your "American Market
> Prices" from but you are being misled if this is what you believe.
>
> Your information on teapots is much more believable and in line with
> what I have learned from other sources. What is your website address
> please?
>
> Sincerely,
> Mike Petro

Jim, I have to disagree with your generalization as well. By your logic
a 1960s cake would sell for $50 or less. That is simply not accurate. I
have seen 1960s Guang Yun Gong cakes sell for $800 and I have seen
1960s Red Label sell for $3,000 both of which were at legitimate
auctions in China frequented by professional collectors, and these are
NOT the extremes by any account. If someone offers you a 1960s cake for
$50 you better look elsewhere!

In my limited experience the market value of puerh is based on several
factors:

1) The factories reputation
2) The production recipe used
3) How well the cake was stored
4) The quality of production that year
5) The quantity of the crop in the given year
6) The reputation for that particular vintage/recipe.
7) Other factors such as limited edition batches etc
8) What the market will bear......


I would say that a high quality cake, that has proven to mature well,
from a well known factory, in an average production year, will increase
anywhere from 10% - 25% *per year* in the current market. Much of this
value is due to the surging popularity of puerh in Hong Kong and Taiwan
over the last 20 years, as well as the fact that well aged pu-erh has
become a status symbol for the rapidly emerging Chinese middle Class.

Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net


Space Cowboy wrote:
> TaoBao sells mid nineties Menghai for $30. In general you add a buck a
> year to the original price for each year of aging. The really
> expensive pu on TaoBao is from limited production and not aging. If
> you pay more than penny/gram for pu'rh then caveat emptor. Then is
> still plenty of Xiaguan Millennium 100g green tuocha in Chinatown for a
> buck.
>
> Jim
>
> Mike Petro wrote:
> > Renny wrote:
> > >If you buy one of my pots I send you a cake of good quality
> > > "green" Menghai Puer that is suitable for investment. That means that
> > > if properly stored it will be worth 200-400 dollars (at current
> > > American market prices) in 2-4 years. If you can keep from drinking it
> > > that long. It will be pretty good tea in a year or two.
> >
> > Renny, now it is you who is spreading misinformation. There is now way
> > that a 2-4 year old green cake of authentic Menghai, yes I know there
> > are many fakes, would sell for $200-$400 here. There *may* be a few
> > vendors dishonest enough to try to do that but they are clearly ripping
> > people off. I do not know where you are getting your "American Market
> > Prices" from but you are being misled if this is what you believe.
> >
> > Your information on teapots is much more believable and in line with
> > what I have learned from other sources. What is your website address
> > please?
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Mike Petro

TaoBao is a market place where you can check prices in the current
Chinese economy. I've been doing that since I found it. All I'm
saying you can find plenty of 10 year pu for $30. Most 2004 300g beeng
I've seen is just $10. You can find prices more expensive than you
quote but nothing more than limited availability. If I'm in China and
show the appreciation you mention then I'm done sitting in front of the
penny stock exhange investing in my retirement because the government
won't take care of me anymore. I think to pretend that there is any
real market for aged pu is misinformation. The high pricing is based
on limited collectors and not demand. I haven't seen any of the big
ticket items on TaoBao sell. You know pu produced before the modern
production process in the early seventies is the demand and not the
age. I've come across Chinese webpages translated by Google and it
seems the accounts of prices at auction are inflated ie it's like
Christie's the minimum bid isn't met. I do my own collecting of
several genre and the real collector doesn't pay the asking price and
doesn't resell. In other words there is little profit in collecting.
I expect to get my money back with a small profit but the possession is
more important than the profit. From what I've seen Pu investment is
the Chinese version of the Beanie Baby. I think the new wealth of
China is investing in nostalgia with something different tomorrow.

Jim

Mike Petro wrote:
> Jim, I have to disagree with your generalization as well. By your logic
> a 1960s cake would sell for $50 or less. That is simply not accurate. I
> have seen 1960s Guang Yun Gong cakes sell for $800 and I have seen
> 1960s Red Label sell for $3,000 both of which were at legitimate
> auctions in China frequented by professional collectors, and these are
> NOT the extremes by any account. If someone offers you a 1960s cake for
> $50 you better look elsewhere!
>
> In my limited experience the market value of puerh is based on several
> factors:
>
> 1) The factories reputation
> 2) The production recipe used
> 3) How well the cake was stored
> 4) The quality of production that year
> 5) The quantity of the crop in the given year
> 6) The reputation for that particular vintage/recipe.
> 7) Other factors such as limited edition batches etc
> 8) What the market will bear......
>
>
> I would say that a high quality cake, that has proven to mature well,
> from a well known factory, in an average production year, will increase
> anywhere from 10% - 25% *per year* in the current market. Much of this
> value is due to the surging popularity of puerh in Hong Kong and Taiwan
> over the last 20 years, as well as the fact that well aged pu-erh has
> become a status symbol for the rapidly emerging Chinese middle Class.
>
> Mike
> http://www.pu-erh.net
>
>
> Space Cowboy wrote:
> > TaoBao sells mid nineties Menghai for $30. In general you add a buck a
> > year to the original price for each year of aging. The really
> > expensive pu on TaoBao is from limited production and not aging. If
> > you pay more than penny/gram for pu'rh then caveat emptor. Then is
> > still plenty of Xiaguan Millennium 100g green tuocha in Chinatown for a
> > buck.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > Mike Petro wrote:
> > > Renny wrote:
> > > >If you buy one of my pots I send you a cake of good quality
> > > > "green" Menghai Puer that is suitable for investment. That means that
> > > > if properly stored it will be worth 200-400 dollars (at current
> > > > American market prices) in 2-4 years. If you can keep from drinking it
> > > > that long. It will be pretty good tea in a year or two.
> > >
> > > Renny, now it is you who is spreading misinformation. There is now way
> > > that a 2-4 year old green cake of authentic Menghai, yes I know there
> > > are many fakes, would sell for $200-$400 here. There *may* be a few
> > > vendors dishonest enough to try to do that but they are clearly ripping
> > > people off. I do not know where you are getting your "American Market
> > > Prices" from but you are being misled if this is what you believe.
> > >
> > > Your information on teapots is much more believable and in line with
> > > what I have learned from other sources. What is your website address
> > > please?
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > > Mike Petro

Space Cowboy wrote:
> TaoBao is a market place where you can check prices in the current
> Chinese economy. I've been doing that since I found it. All I'm
> saying you can find plenty of 10 year pu for $30.

TaoBao appears quite similar to our Ebay, as in buyer beware because
the sellers may or may not be reputable and the goods may or may not be
authentic. I would not trust their goods any more than I would trust
somebody on Ebay, and Ebay is rife with scam artists especially when
dealing in antique goods (such as aged puerh). Yes there are good
dealers there but one would need to know the culture really well before
venturing into those waters.

> I think to pretend that there is any
> real market for aged pu is misinformation. The high pricing is based
> on limited collectors and not demand.

Nobody is "pretending" Jim, it is a fact that I have personally
confirmed many times over. To say that it is misinformation would be
like saying that a "wine collector's market" in the USA is also
misinformation. The two genres are extremely similar in their
respective cultures, both in popularity and in fanaticism. Many people
in China boast about their puerh collections, and it is quite true that
few of them will ever really sell, only the speculators and those in
need of cash actually sell. It is common for a guest to be shown this
collection, although most Western guests fail to realize the pride that
their host is really exhibiting. The high demand is further
demonstrated by that fact that wholesale prices for young Puerh have
tripled this year compared to the same time last year. This has been
attributed to a bad growing season AND higher than ever demand. The
existance of so many forgeries also substantiates the demand, if there
were no demand there would be no market for forgeries. Finally let us
not forget the laws of supply and demand, the reality is that the
demand exceeds the supply hence the high prices.

>I haven't seen any of the big ticket items on TaoBao sell.

The main reason is that very few Chinese collectors will buy a cake
without first seeing, smelling, and tasting it. To try a tea before you
buy is definitely the custom in China, collectors will often bring
their own teas to brew and compare to the prospective purchase as a
means of authenticating it. So why would they buy an aged cake site
unseen? It is like asking to get ripped off.

Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net

"Lewis Perin" > wrote in message
news
> Renny > writes:
>
>> [...]
>>
>> Most people don't even realize that GongFuCha is the only way to
>> actually
>
> I'm having trouble thinking of a way to complete this sentence to make
> it true. Any suggestions?
>
> /Lew

My suggestion :
"Most people don't even realize that GongFuCha is the only way to actually"
reliably seduce women for less than $5.00 with unparalleled success
statistics.

Sasha.

Mike is absolutely right. Don't expect to see good prices for authentic
puer going into the future. The rest of China has discovered puer, and
there are high prices being asked in Bejing and Shanghai now, where as
in the past, demand had been limited in Hong Kong, Taiwan, and
Guangzhou. There are numberous buyers trying to buy up all of the
available puer stores. The Chinese universally agree that puer is a
good investment. There is plenty enough fraud involved in this market
and there has been since the end of the cultural revolution when having
destroyed most old cakes, a thriving market in old puer emerged. Since
the government was the major puer producer, and still is by the way,
the corruption was supported by the law in Yunnan, where it was illegal
to publish a date on any puer on the market. Buyer beware indeed.
People who are collectors do thier homework, and there are recognized
dealers that offer verification of date. This verification is only
valid within a couple of years one way or the other, and involves
examination of the cake, color, smell, and taste. Color, taste, and
smell can not be faked. What the market will bare is the rule. There
are plenty of people that will spend high prices and never blink an eye
about it. The good news is that standards have been established for
puer now, and you don't have to be an expert to sort through these, and
that newly produced puer is very good. It takes about 5 or 6 years for
raw puer to darken and mellow, but there are plenty of people that
enjoy it young, green, and a little bit bitter. Puer is certainly an
obsession, and one that I must admit to having too. If you see some
cheap puer laying around in some store somewhere, and it is still
cheap, I'd recommend buying it up and hang on to it.
I wanted to say also that the assertion that it is healther to brew tea
in one way or another is bizzarre. There is an enormous amount of
research being carried out in the US alone with extremely positive
results. The tea is donated and is not really worth drinking and those
folks doing the testing have never even heard of Yixing.

Here is a search string for Guang Yun Gong on TaoBao:

http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl...nd-0-all-0.htm

You have to enter Simplified characters and not Unicode for search
strings so it isn't as easy as it looks. Plus TaoBao only searches the
title and not description.

As of this post you will see 70's Guang Yun Gong for $20. You will see
a tong like bundle from 1980 for $110. What was your 60's price again,
something like $800. You pay alot for those blemishes. I'll stick
with fair market value and you buy from the collectors. If every
potential serious buyer wants a sample then eventually there is nothing
to sell. I think the wine analogy is essentially false because it is
ultimately consumed. The bottle and cork might be worth something.
One on my collection genres extends to the 1900s. Thank goodness you
can't eat or drink it. I can tell you haven't done any serious
collecting except paying too much for your tea. You're on the outside
looking in. High prices are simply for the gullible. No serious
collector will tell you what he paid for anything. You'll never get
your money back if you buy at auction. For insurance purposes I'm much
further ahead if my house burns down.

Jim

Mike Petro wrote:
> Space Cowboy wrote:
> > TaoBao is a market place where you can check prices in the current
> > Chinese economy. I've been doing that since I found it. All I'm
> > saying you can find plenty of 10 year pu for $30.
>
> TaoBao appears quite similar to our Ebay, as in buyer beware because
> the sellers may or may not be reputable and the goods may or may not be
> authentic. I would not trust their goods any more than I would trust
> somebody on Ebay, and Ebay is rife with scam artists especially when
> dealing in antique goods (such as aged puerh). Yes there are good
> dealers there but one would need to know the culture really well before
> venturing into those waters.
>
> > I think to pretend that there is any
> > real market for aged pu is misinformation. The high pricing is based
> > on limited collectors and not demand.
>
> Nobody is "pretending" Jim, it is a fact that I have personally
> confirmed many times over. To say that it is misinformation would be
> like saying that a "wine collector's market" in the USA is also
> misinformation. The two genres are extremely similar in their
> respective cultures, both in popularity and in fanaticism. Many people
> in China boast about their puerh collections, and it is quite true that
> few of them will ever really sell, only the speculators and those in
> need of cash actually sell. It is common for a guest to be shown this
> collection, although most Western guests fail to realize the pride that
> their host is really exhibiting. The high demand is further
> demonstrated by that fact that wholesale prices for young Puerh have
> tripled this year compared to the same time last year. This has been
> attributed to a bad growing season AND higher than ever demand. The
> existance of so many forgeries also substantiates the demand, if there
> were no demand there would be no market for forgeries. Finally let us
> not forget the laws of supply and demand, the reality is that the
> demand exceeds the supply hence the high prices.
>
> >I haven't seen any of the big ticket items on TaoBao sell.
>
> The main reason is that very few Chinese collectors will buy a cake
> without first seeing, smelling, and tasting it. To try a tea before you
> buy is definitely the custom in China, collectors will often bring
> their own teas to brew and compare to the prospective purchase as a
> means of authenticating it. So why would they buy an aged cake site
> unseen? It is like asking to get ripped off.
>
> Mike Petro

[Renny]
Most people don't even realize that GongFuCha is the only way to
actually all the health benefits of tea they so highly value (most
brewing destroys these things or never makes them available even when
you start with a good tea).

[Seb]
Could you tell please where you had the information that gong fu tea is
the only way to benefit the health value of tea. I only brew gong fu
tea so i am very interested in this information.

[Renny]
If you buy one of my pots I send you a cake of good quality "green"
Menghai Puer that is suitable for investment. That means that if
properly stored it will be worth 200-400 dollars (at current American
market prices) in 2-4 years. If you can keep from drinking it that
long. It will be pretty good tea in a year or two.

[Seb]
By meng Hai pu erh do you mean a pu erh from one of the meng hai area
factories or a "meng hai tea factory pu erh"? There is absolutely no
way that a green pu erh, 5 years old would be between 200 and 400 usd.
Even a Meng Hai tea Factory pu erh.


[Renny]
By the way. Factory teapots are all industrial grade clay (thats
right, there is more than one grade of yixing clay and many varieties
of both grades)

[Seb]
This is interesting to me because our friend from Yixing who is a
accredited master potter said he would find a hard time to explain us
the different grade of clay. If you know how to set the grade per types
of clay, could you let us know about them? I think everybody will like
to read about that here. The only thing that i understood about clay
grading so far, is that, you do need to bite it LOL

Jim,

I looked at the page you mentioned without using that translating
things as I do not need them.
The thing i would like to say is : on the same page there is one guang
yun gong bing from the "80's" selling for 880 rmb ($106) , this isn't
the price for a bundle like you mentionned but for 1 beeng cha and then
down on the page another guang yun gong bing from the "70's" that sells
for $20. Desn' t that raised any questions to your mind?

[Jim]
I'll stick with fair market value and you buy from the collectors.

[Jing]
This example isn't what the fair market value is. There is no such
thing as a guang yun from the 70's at $20, not in China.

For the one from the 80's, the price of 880 rmb is more accurate even
though it is too expensive for this particular item as the seller do
not mention if it is 1981 or 1989.

Real pu erh collectors are certainly the most accurate sources for aged
pu erh.

Jing

My apologies... this went a little over the limit so its done it two posts.

Hello folks,
I had no idea my post would generate this much response so I will try to answer it all here. First of all there is one glaring error (my fault) I will address up front. I enjoyed Sashas' comment espeacially. The word that goes in there is "recieve". Also, my wife, XiaoLing, wants to know how you know that Sasha? I say that because the basic chemical elements undergo specific changes and behave in specific ways with the proper heating, reheating, etcetera. For instance, 90% of caffiene is effectively washed out in the first 30 seconds of brewing. That means that a particularly strong fermented and unfermented blend of loose leaf puer I found recently is effectively decaffinated because it needs 3 washings before you pao your first pot for drinking. The good part is that we get up to 20 pao out of it before we call it quits. There are many other such changes that affect when and how many benefits are most potent to virtually non-existant. Its too much to go into here, but let me just say that the repeated heating and proper handling of your brew (GonFuCha) is the best way to obtain maximum benefit. This has evolved over a very long period of time and the Chinese have got it down to an art and a science.

There also appears to some concern about my veracity regarding prices. This is a tough one to answer. The problem is that you are all right, but there are other consideration in each case. This is what I was talking about concerning misinformation. Many people have a great deal of very good information about tea and teapots and generally good paradigms but are missing some critical perspectives (and often have limited info in certain areas). This creates blind spots that are difficult to overcome and cause controversy among people who are generally right in there reasons for an opinion. I think the best way to answer this is to explain a little of what I do here and how it works. The problem here, I think, is not about people having bad info, but about perspectives created by incomplete views. A situation that is sadly almost unavoidable for most tea drinkers (particluarly novices) in the states.

Though tea is not my only business, tea and teaware is a major elemet in both my business and daily life. I live in Zhuhai just south of Macao. I am married to a beautiful Cantonese lady who helps me with business and have been embraced by her family, friends, and the business community. I think that in the process of explaining how my "typical" day goes you might better understand why my views are as they are.

Typically, when not working, I drink between 20 and 50 cups of tea a day depending on how much I socialise. This number often exceeds 100 when i'm working and buying tea. This is not considered excessive here. My personal favorites are puer, followed by oolong, and then good hard rolled ginseng. I buy and know good greens, reds, whites. The rest I simply don't deal with because of time and other restraints regarding my business.

I own pots for each of these but don't typically carry them with me when buying. The reason for this is the way buying is done in China and serious sellers know me and give me samples to try at home. If the seller can't pao the tea in a teapot set aside for what he is selling I simply won't buy. The comment about collectors and buyers in China not being willing to buy sight unseen (and tasted) is absolutely true. The comment about Chinese being in universal agreement about puer investment is also absolutely true and spreading globally. Good aged puer is getting harder to find all the time. Rip offs are getting more common every day as the "sell before market" bosses fight for the market. This is why serious buyers of quality puer don't buy from taobao or ebay. Its just guessing.

I am originally a midwest farmboy. I did business overseas for 20 years before settling in China. One aspect of my business is negotiating joint ventures between Chinese and American firms so I still have with and a good grasp of American business and trends. I pay for statistical services and other things that help me keep abreast of many things in both China and the states. These things are helpful but they do not replace something that is vital regarding the tea and teaware industry. That is the personal on the site relationship with the industry. Let me tell you a true story. You have in most likelihood never read something like this before. I don't know of its existance at any rate. I will tell you about an actual buying/selling session with a Chinese tea boss. I think that will be more informative than reciting statistics and prices.

My wife and I simply walk into the front shop and are greeted. He knows us. I am the only zhong guo guilo (Chinese Guilo) in Zhuhai in the tea business. There are a couple more in GuangDong province and maybe a dozen more spread across China. He knows that Zi Yau Ren You Xian Gung Si (Freeman Ltd.) is a family business that has many family (some related to him) in the business. I have face with this man and it would cost him face to treat me poorly. He invites me to sit at his tea table and starts looking over his pots.

While he looks over his pots we engage in small talk. Like the weather. This will be important later and I would lose face if I didn't pay attention. All of his pots are perfect or near perfect and he knows that I know it. I look over and smell any "new" pots. An bad pot can be used to cheat you. He gains face.

He pulls over a bag of loose leaf puer blend. Its a blend of fermented and unfermented. I know this but say nothing. I gain face and give him face. He sets a pot out front. I smell it and look it over. Then I reach into the bag and mix the top layer before taking a handfull to smell. He asks me if I want to try it. This is my opportunity to let him give me the sales pitch I know he has been setting me up for so I say simply ask what it is.

He has already told me the weather in Yunannan was rainy a while back and caused the plum trees to blossom late. This is important because the leaves for this blend were picked before the blossoms. Plums are common in China and particularly Yunnan where you often get a slight "plum" taste in the puer. This puer is being presented as having little or none of that problem. On the other hand they had some "lemon" puer on hand among the local bosses. By itself not really good puer. They decided to make a blend. This is it. Both of these puer were exceptionally strong and the lemon needs to be well washed. What I have here is a potentially good blend that needs 3 washings but should yield many good pao. It probably doesn't sit well with a Chinese taste in puer. They are trying to see if Americans would like it. I ask him how many pao will it make. He says up to 20 counting the washings.

We pao around six times not counting the washings and discuss its problems and assets. The Chinese don't have a taste for sweets like westerners so their idea of a good plum is almost sour to Americans. The plum taste in this puer is slight enough to be non existant in this blend, but the "lemon" is strong enough (though very mild) to be confused with bitterness past 10 pao or so if you don't understand "bitterness" from the Chinese view.

I tell him that it is very good puer (because it is) but it will only do about 15 pao for most people and someone who doesn't pao well will only get 10 (counting washings) before this quasi "bitterness" takes hold of their tongue. He smiles and gives me 100g to take home and contemplate until we meet again. But we aren't done yet.

See my next post for the rest.

Part 2... sorry its so long.... very rainy day here with extra time on my hands.


I tell him that it is very good puer (because it is) but it will only do about 15 pao for most people and someone who doesn't pao well will only get 10 (counting washings) before this quasi "bitterness" takes hold of their tongue. He smiles and gives me 100g to take home and contemplate until we meet again. But we aren't done yet.

He brings me 3 cakes and two boxes of bricks to look at (this fellow is exclusively puer). He asks me if i've heard about the fake puer from India that has been circulating lately. I let him know I have and look at one box that matches the description of the fakes. I gain face. He smiles. This is not the fake and he invites me to look it over.

I set a couple of the bricks up by the cakes and get out my puer pick. Two cakes have already been cut (a puer pick is used). I can see that the cut ones are good deep inside. I use my pic to cut the third and a brick. I would be considered stupid not to cut it and we would both lose face. Its a good cake (at least its not old puer pressed over new puer). The cakes are one to five years old he says, and the bricks are green. I ask him about prices.

We discuss the factories, farms, the GuangZhou sell before market bosses, and the weather again. During this I let him know my main interest today is green bricks. He is very proud of a five year old small leaf crab he has on the table and asks me to try it first. I know he doesn't really want to sell this right now and is "showing off" so I say sure. Its part of his investment stash and we both know it. We pao about 10 times and he is right. It is very good. The price is high, as I thought it would be, and would be considered too pricy at the price I would have to charge to do well with it. I tell him I wish I could afford it today but I have only brought enough to buy bricks (cash is king here). So we do about 7 or 8 pao of the brick. I ask about only the price of the bricks now.

These bricks still taste green, of course, but have everything else it takes to be a great puer in a year or two. I buy and drink a lot of puer. The price on these is depressed because of the fakes and time of year. We settle on a price of 70RMB (5 bricks = 1360g/box @ around $8.50 US). I tell him how many boxes I want and while he gets my order ready we chat and invite each other to the next get together (could be at anyones house or shop) to show off our new teas, pots, and fill the air with whatever business or family news is hot while our wives cook some (really) good food.

During this process there is ample opportunity to feel, smell, crumble, bend, spindle, fold, and mutilate tea until you are satisfied. Wet or dry. This process is repeated 5-10 times in a day with the only change being the tea you are buying and its requirements and proper examination. We take a break for high tea to relax with ourselves or friends. Eventually we make our way home to relax, entertain, or work (it never ends). This is not every day but regardless of what kind of business or pleasure is going on you can be assured tea is involved.

I hope this little story helps you to understand why I view and buy tea differently and that I have good reasons. I think it is impossible to get this kind of buying/selling experience outside of China. The capacity to have confidence in your purchase, its quality, its value, and keep a finger on the pulse of the tea market is unmatched. Much of that fake Indian puer is already in the states for instance. I now have more green bricks for my clients of high quality ($5 US and shipping... the five bucks is a handling charge and you don't pay that with a purchase). I think the only way I could be more honest and straightforward about this is if I were a better writer.

By the way, if you have ever seen a description of an actual tea sale anywhere let me know. I don't think there are many people in America or China in the tea business who want you to know.

Best regards.... Dan

On 20 Jun 2005 16:25:16 -0700, "Space Cowboy" >
wrote:

>Here is a search string for Guang Yun Gong on TaoBao:
>
>http://216.239.39.104/translate_c?hl...nd-0-all-0.htm

Jim that is no more reliable than doing a search on Ebay, you have to
take the results with a grain of salt, it is NOT a true representation
of the actual market. Once again, NO serious collector would buy an
aged cake site unseen, these guys are catering to the uninitiated! I
would not buy antique puerh from this site any more than I would buy
Swarovski crystal from Ebay.

>As of this post you will see 70's Guang Yun Gong for $20. You will see
>a tong like bundle from 1980 for $110. What was your 60's price again,
>something like $800. You pay alot for those blemishes. I'll stick
>with fair market value and you buy from the collectors. If every
>potential serious buyer wants a sample then eventually there is nothing
>to sell. I think the wine analogy is essentially false because it is
>ultimately consumed. The bottle and cork might be worth something.
>One on my collection genres extends to the 1900s. Thank goodness you
>can't eat or drink it. I can tell you haven't done any serious
>collecting except paying too much for your tea. You're on the outside
>looking in. High prices are simply for the gullible. No serious
>collector will tell you what he paid for anything. You'll never get
>your money back if you buy at auction. For insurance purposes I'm much
>further ahead if my house burns down.

Once again you resort to unsubstantiated jabs, innuendo, and insults
rather than debating actual conditions. The only reason I even bother
responding to you anymore is because you are spreading misinformation.

I rest my case on the facts and my reputation.

Ciao

Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
"In this work, when it shall be found that much is omitted, let it not be forgotten that much likewise is performed."
Samuel Johnson, 1775, upon finishing his dictionary.

Dan, I have to admit this was quite good. It was well written and very
accurately concurs with several private conversations I have had with
other friends and acquaintances I have in the tea business, all of whom
conduct business in China. The subject of puerh is quite controversial,
even amongst the Chinese. I have spent years researching it in depth
and I have often heard conflicting information directly from Chinese
sources, and Chinese books/texts. It is so confusing that I have
learned to look for corroboration before believing anything. Your
description was quite excellent, please post more like this!

Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net

Mike -

Which post are you referring to? I noticed that in this thread I cannot see
neither Dan nor Renny.

Sasha.


"Mike Petro" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Dan, I have to admit this was quite good. It was well written and very
> accurately concurs with several private conversations I have had with
> other friends and acquaintances I have in the tea business, all of whom
> conduct business in China. The subject of puerh is quite controversial,
> even amongst the Chinese. I have spent years researching it in depth
> and I have often heard conflicting information directly from Chinese
> sources, and Chinese books/texts. It is so confusing that I have
> learned to look for corroboration before believing anything. Your
> description was quite excellent, please post more like this!
>
> Mike
> http://www.pu-erh.net
>

Hi Alex,

His 2 posts were way too long to quote so I left them out.

I will forward the post to you vis email.

Mike







Alex Chaihorsky wrote:
> Mike -
>
> Which post are you referring to? I noticed that in this thread I cannot see
> neither Dan nor Renny.
>
> Sasha.
>
>
> "Mike Petro" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Dan, I have to admit this was quite good. It was well written and very
> > accurately concurs with several private conversations I have had with
> > other friends and acquaintances I have in the tea business, all of whom
> > conduct business in China. The subject of puerh is quite controversial,
> > even amongst the Chinese. I have spent years researching it in depth
> > and I have often heard conflicting information directly from Chinese
> > sources, and Chinese books/texts. It is so confusing that I have
> > learned to look for corroboration before believing anything. Your
> > description was quite excellent, please post more like this!
> >
> > Mike
> > http://www.pu-erh.net
> >

Thanks a zil.

Sasha.

"Mike Petro" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hi Alex,
>
> His 2 posts were way too long to quote so I left them out.
>
> I will forward the post to you vis email.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Alex Chaihorsky wrote:
>> Mike -
>>
>> Which post are you referring to? I noticed that in this thread I cannot
>> see
>> neither Dan nor Renny.
>>
>> Sasha.
>>
>>
>> "Mike Petro" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> > Dan, I have to admit this was quite good. It was well written and very
>> > accurately concurs with several private conversations I have had with
>> > other friends and acquaintances I have in the tea business, all of whom
>> > conduct business in China. The subject of puerh is quite controversial,
>> > even amongst the Chinese. I have spent years researching it in depth
>> > and I have often heard conflicting information directly from Chinese
>> > sources, and Chinese books/texts. It is so confusing that I have
>> > learned to look for corroboration before believing anything. Your
>> > description was quite excellent, please post more like this!
>> >
>> > Mike
>> > http://www.pu-erh.net
>> >
>

You're the one spreading misinformation about aged pu pricing. You
won't see anything on TaoBao in the 90's or over $50 and the 80's for
over a $100. I'll let you know when something from the 60's shows up.
All you are describing is a hot market for speculators and not
collectors. Tea bricks of all types in Chinese homes is an heirloom
and not for sale or consumption. TaoBao has it share of presentation
wedding boxes.

Jim

Mike Petro wrote:
....I delete me and you...
> Once again you resort to unsubstantiated jabs, innuendo, and insults
> rather than debating actual conditions. The only reason I even bother
> responding to you anymore is because you are spreading misinformation.
>
> I rest my case on the facts and my reputation.
>
> Ciao
>
> Mike Petro

I'll agree there is a price discrepancy in the two posts. However the
80's post didn't mention a gram weight but did show a bundle of some
sort or individual bamboo wrapping for one beeng which I haven't seen
before maybe indicative of old style. If the 80's was a bundle then
pricing is reduced. Only the title mentioned "80's" but the
description "Year: 80 ages" so it remains if inclusive or not. The
"Pu'er tea merchant" is one of the biggest dealers on TaoBao. I'd buy
from him if I knew how. It could be the 70's was legitimate and priced
seemingly low for whatever reason. You find alot of 'distress' sales
online. I need the 'translating things' but the pricing and selection
comes across loud and clear.

Jim

SEb wrote:
> Jim,
>
> I looked at the page you mentioned without using that translating
> things as I do not need them.
> The thing i would like to say is : on the same page there is one guang
> yun gong bing from the "80's" selling for 880 rmb ($106) , this isn't
> the price for a bundle like you mentionned but for 1 beeng cha and then
> down on the page another guang yun gong bing from the "70's" that sells
> for $20. Desn' t that raised any questions to your mind?
>
> [Jim]
> I'll stick with fair market value and you buy from the collectors.
>
> [Jing]
> This example isn't what the fair market value is. There is no such
> thing as a guang yun from the 70's at $20, not in China.
>
> For the one from the 80's, the price of 880 rmb is more accurate even
> though it is too expensive for this particular item as the seller do
> not mention if it is 1981 or 1989.
>
> Real pu erh collectors are certainly the most accurate sources for aged
> pu erh.
>
> Jing

Jim, 3 different people who live in or travel to China extensively have
now concurred that TaBao is NOT representative of the actual market in
China. You are basing your assumptions on false and/or misleading data.


I guess EVERYBODY else is just wrong and you are the only one who knows
the truth, just like a year ago when you chastised me for buying from
online Chinese vendors because you were certain that Chinatown
Apothecaries were the ONLY place to buy authentic puerh. Where are you
buying your puerh now, the very same places I do because even your
Chinatown sources eventually told you to? It seems like you just want
to disagree with anything I say, if I said the sun was shining you
would argue the point. Why don't you go back to talking about stale
Department Store Tea where you are at least experienced enough to speak
with first hand knowledge.

Mike


Space Cowboy wrote:
> You're the one spreading misinformation about aged pu pricing. You
> won't see anything on TaoBao in the 90's or over $50 and the 80's for
> over a $100. I'll let you know when something from the 60's shows up.
> All you are describing is a hot market for speculators and not
> collectors. Tea bricks of all types in Chinese homes is an heirloom
> and not for sale or consumption. TaoBao has it share of presentation
> wedding boxes.
>
> Jim

You like paying retail markup be my guest. From what I understand the
Chinese merchants love to see the (what's that word again for the
stupid Occidental) coming with his credit card. Believe me I wouldn't
buy anything from anybody who endorses your infomercial site. You need
to shop more in Chinatown or TaoBao and learn how to save some money.
Some new Puer sellers from China have popped up on Ebay. Damn that
shipping. One seller thought he would stockpile in Arizona and ship
from there. He found out he couldn't so now my forgotten 5/3 order is
being shipped from China which will be another month. So I don't have
to retract any statements about websites I declare Ebay a fleamarket.
If you can't find puer in Chinatown retail it's at the herbalist
shoppe. Be sure to take the characters representation because
phonetics won't work.

Jim

Mike Petro wrote:
> Jim, 3 different people who live in or travel to China extensively have
> now concurred that TaBao is NOT representative of the actual market in
> China. You are basing your assumptions on false and/or misleading data.
>
>
> I guess EVERYBODY else is just wrong and you are the only one who knows
> the truth, just like a year ago when you chastised me for buying from
> online Chinese vendors because you were certain that Chinatown
> Apothecaries were the ONLY place to buy authentic puerh. Where are you
> buying your puerh now, the very same places I do because even your
> Chinatown sources eventually told you to? It seems like you just want
> to disagree with anything I say, if I said the sun was shining you
> would argue the point. Why don't you go back to talking about stale
> Department Store Tea where you are at least experienced enough to speak
> with first hand knowledge.
>
> Mike
>
>
> Space Cowboy wrote:
> > You're the one spreading misinformation about aged pu pricing. You
> > won't see anything on TaoBao in the 90's or over $50 and the 80's for
> > over a $100. I'll let you know when something from the 60's shows up.
> > All you are describing is a hot market for speculators and not
> > collectors. Tea bricks of all types in Chinese homes is an heirloom
> > and not for sale or consumption. TaoBao has it share of presentation
> > wedding boxes.
> >
> > Jim

Yawn.........

Hey Mike,
The only real way to get any good tea (in the mail that is) is to have someone you trust send it to you from China. If the guy you trust cheats you I suppose you should learn the intracacies of caveat emptor.

There will always be enough tea in China to taste before you buy and they wouldn't have it any other way.

Did he really say the only way to get good puer in the states was to go to China town or did I misunderstand?

BTW, they don't say stupid occidental. Its chun guilo or guipo (stupid non-asian man or woman).

kinda tickled
Renny

Hi Renny,



On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 05:34:57 +0000, Renny
> wrote:

>
>Hey Mike,
>The only real way to get any good tea (in the mail that is) is to have
>someone you trust send it to you from China. If the guy you trust
>cheats you I suppose you should learn the intracacies of caveat
>emptor.

Yes, I have been buying puerh directly from China for years now, and
you are right that it is largely a matter of trust. It is not only
enough to trust your vendor's ethics but you also must trust your
vendors knowledge level. This is particularly true for Westerners
trying to buy aged puerh. Many of the vendors in the US don't know
enough not to get ripped off themselves and they then innocently pass
off these poor purchases onto their customers. As you know the vendors
at the markets in Kunming or Guangzhou think nothing of ripping off
Chinese customers so you can only imagine what they would do to an
unsuspecting laowai. I have developed good relationships with honest
vendors at both of these tea markets but even so I seldom buy aged
tea.


>Did he really say the only way to get good puer in the states was to go
>to China town or did I misunderstand?

Yes, a year ago when I was condoning buying puerh from ebay and other
Internet vendors he did chastise me heavily for not traveling 6 hours
to the nearest Chinatown. Now he is buying from the same people I
recommended back then.

Don't pay much attention to the exchanges between Space Cadet (Cowboy)
and myself. He has attacked me with a vengeance ever since I opened A
website a year and a half ago that teaches people about puerh. My site
is non-commercial and I don't sell anything at all, not even
advertising, however I do provide links to every online resource I can
find. He is determined to insult it and me anyway he can. Just search
out the "Poo Poo Puerh" thread dated Feb 14th 2004 and you will see
what I mean. Its all a matter of public record.

Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
"In this work, when it shall be found that much is omitted, let it not be forgotten that much likewise is performed."
Samuel Johnson, 1775, upon finishing his dictionary.

Eric Jorgensen20050620101530.12323f78@wafer6/20/05

> On 20 Jun 2005 12:11:07 -0400
> Lewis Perin > wrote:
>
>> Renny > writes:
>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Most people don't even realize that GongFuCha is the only way to
>>> actually
>>
>> (Insert your favorite verb here, I suppose)
>>
>>> all the health benefits of tea they so highly value (most brewing
>>> destroys these things or never makes them available even when you
>>> start with a good tea).
>>
>> I'm having trouble thinking of a way to complete this sentence to make
>> it true. Any suggestions?
>
>
> I think the only failsafe method of getting all the health benefits from
> your pu-erh or any other tea is to pulverize it into a fine powder and
> snort it up your nose.

You could also form it into a fine crystal under fire. Science ever
advances.

Mike 6/20/05


> Jim, I have to disagree with your generalization as well. By your logic
> a 1960s cake would sell for $50 or less. That is simply not accurate. I
> have seen 1960s Guang Yun Gong cakes sell for $800 and I have seen
> 1960s Red Label sell for $3,000 both of which were at legitimate
> auctions in China frequented by professional collectors, and these are
> NOT the extremes by any account. If someone offers you a 1960s cake for
> $50 you better look elsewhere!

On the other hand, Mike, if somebody offers Jim a 1960's cake for $50, it is
either a ruined 1960's cake -- which is quite possible, albeit improbable --
or something else entirely. If that something else entirely tastes damned
good and causes Jim to wonder for a moment whether it is indeed a 1960's
cake, then it's worth the 50 bucks, and all the more power to Jim and the
thief. (Does that make *any* sense at all?)
>
> In my limited experience the market value of puerh is based on several
> factors:
>
> 1) The factories reputation
> 2) The production recipe used
> 3) How well the cake was stored
> 4) The quality of production that year
> 5) The quantity of the crop in the given year
> 6) The reputation for that particular vintage/recipe.
> 7) Other factors such as limited edition batches etc
> 8) What the market will bear......

It would be fascinating to perform a *weighted* average calculation
on your list. I'd place 50% of the weight on eight.
>
>
> I would say that a high quality cake, that has proven to mature well,
> from a well known factory, in an average production year, will increase
> anywhere from 10% - 25% *per year* in the current market. Much of this
> value is due to the surging popularity of puerh in Hong Kong and Taiwan
> over the last 20 years, as well as the fact that well aged pu-erh has
> become a status symbol for the rapidly emerging Chinese middle Class.

Get yours NOW.

Michael

Alex .com6/20/05


> "Lewis Perin" > wrote in message
> news
>> Renny > writes:
>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Most people don't even realize that GongFuCha is the only way to
>>> actually
>>
>> I'm having trouble thinking of a way to complete this sentence to make
>> it true. Any suggestions?
>>
>> /Lew
>
> My suggestion :
> "Most people don't even realize that GongFuCha is the only way to actually"
> reliably seduce women for less than $5.00 with unparalleled success
> statistics.

Well, Sasha, now that you let the cat out of the bag -- so to speak -- I'll
just pack up my marbles and go home.

Michael

When a guy pops in the group selling stuff and says trust me, yeah
right. Commercial advertising in this group is prohibited. If you
can't find pu'rh in Chinatown it ain't no Chinatown. It'll go for
about penny/gram. I'll leave it up to your taste buds if cheap is
good. Or you can pay $10 for the Xiaguan Millennium 100g tuocha from
the website in Houston which has been previously recommended by the
Barnum of Puer which cost less than a buck in my Chinatown. If you
have any scarce pu'rh me or others will be willing to sample it for
you. It won't remain scarce too long. The term refers to stupid
foreigners which includes Occidentals and Asians. You've already
picked the wrong side.

Jim

Renny wrote:
> Hey Mike,
> The only real way to get any good tea (in the mail that is) is to have
> someone you trust send it to you from China. If the guy you trust
> cheats you I suppose you should learn the intracacies of caveat
> emptor.
>
> There will always be enough tea in China to taste before you buy and
> they wouldn't have it any other way.
>
> Did he really say the only way to get good puer in the states was to go
> to China town or did I misunderstand?
>
> BTW, they don't say stupid occidental. Its chun guilo or guipo (stupid
> non-asian man or woman).
>
> kinda tickled
> Renny
>
>
> Mike Petro Wrote:
> > Yawn.........
>
>
> --
> Renny

On 22 Jun 2005 07:39:53 -0700, "Space Cadet" >
wrote:

>When a guy pops in the group selling stuff and says trust me, yeah
>right. Commercial advertising in this group is prohibited.

When have I ever offered a single thing for sale on this or any other
newsgroup Jim? Show me the post, you can't because it doesnt exist,
you are twisting the truth yet once again.


>If you
>can't find pu'rh in Chinatown it ain't no Chinatown. It'll go for
>about penny/gram. I'll leave it up to your taste buds if cheap is
>good.

You yourself are now buying from Scott Wilson on Ebay,
CyberSilkRoads.com, and Treasuregreen.com amongst others. Why is it OK
for you to buy from these places yet you say it is not OK for me to
tell others about them?

As usual Jim you like to twist the truth to suite your own agenda.


> Or you can pay $10 for the Xiaguan Millennium 100g tuocha from
>the website in Houston which has been previously recommended by the
>Barnum of Puer which cost less than a buck in my Chinatown.

Yes, I do publicly acknowledge the websites that offer authentic puerh
for those who cant find it locally. I seldom comment on pricing
because I never pay US prices myself anyway. Even on my website I only
comment on authenticityof the information and tea, not pricing. The
vast majority of time that I have stirred somebody to a website it was
either at their request or I also recommended seeking out a local
brick and mortar store first if it is available. In any event there is
nothing wrong with sharing online sources, whether you like it or not!

Jim, go take your prozac, drink some tea, and leave me alone......


Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
"In this work, when it shall be found that much is omitted, let it not be forgotten that much likewise is performed."
Samuel Johnson, 1775, upon finishing his dictionary.