Fascinating discussion. Sorry to join late - had to find a new way to
post to Usenet since major ISPs dropped access. First attempt at
posting through Google. Any recommendations for cheap/free Usenet
services?

niisonge wrote:
> Proposed suggestions include:
> 1. hei cha
> 2. dark tea
> 3. fu tea (note: a new name meaning "happiness")
> 4. return to original, direct chinese tranlation: black tea

None of these is compelling, though I'd favor hei cha. Following on
Lew's point, it's a pronounceable term that might carry the cachet of
exoticism before becoming a mainstream term.

However, there seem to remain plenty of alternatives. In the West,
more usually equates to better. What about twice-cured, fully cured,
perfectly ripe, 100% ripe, mature, complete, etc.?

Seems like a good place to look for market-embraced terminology would
be other affordable-luxury consumables that have undergone somewhat
similar processing like wine, spirits, cigars, c***** and cheese.

-DM

if following other recipes like cheese, wine, etc is the way, then the
name must be given by a chinese, because then not only you are giving
a name to a thing but adding to the product/proccess attributes that
are fully developed in the mind of the ones that receive in first hand
the tea, i.e. chinese people, the one that invented it. i mean, not
the tea i general, this particular tea...

the same way it happened with jerez, porto, parmigiano, ... for a
foreigner are just names, for a local is more than that. in the
translation you are loosing much information, isn't it? the rest of us
will have to adapt our mind to what they mind. i don't translate
wulong (yes, my pronunciation is far away from the original), the same
way i can't translate lemon curd, and when i here paprika for
pimentón, or prosciutto for jamón, i think the one that say it didn't
understand nothing, just they don't know what it is.

so that, it's not only a matter of a name, but culture. and
translating or adapting to a foreigners mind is maybe 'misculture',
'disculture'...

so that, we are talking only about market, aren't we?

kind regards,
bonifacio barrio hijosa
http://worldoftea.iespana.es/


On 19 dic, 17:45, dogma_i > wrote:
> Fascinating discussion. Sorry to join late - had to find a new way to
> post to Usenet since major ISPs dropped access. First attempt at
> posting through Google. Any recommendations for cheap/free Usenet
> services?
>
> niisonge wrote:
> > Proposed suggestions include:
> > 1. hei cha
> > 2. dark tea
> > 3. fu tea (note: a new name meaning "happiness")
> > 4. return to original, direct chinese tranlation: black tea
>
> None of these is compelling, though I'd favor hei cha. Following on
> Lew's point, it's a pronounceable term that might carry the cachet of
> exoticism before becoming a mainstream term.
>
> However, there seem to remain plenty of alternatives. In the West,
> more usually equates to better. What about twice-cured, fully cured,
> perfectly ripe, 100% ripe, mature, complete, etc.?
>
> Seems like a good place to look for market-embraced terminology would
> be other affordable-luxury consumables that have undergone somewhat
> similar processing like wine, spirits, cigars, c***** and cheese.
>
> -DM

> None of these is compelling, though I'd favor hei cha. Following on
> Lew's point, it's a pronounceable term that might carry the cachet of
> exoticism before becoming a mainstream term.

Oooooh, exotic, I like that! :-)

> However, there seem to remain plenty of alternatives. In the West,
> more usually equates to better. What about twice-cured, fully cured,
> perfectly ripe, 100% ripe, mature, complete, etc.?

Very good point, I will run that by the Chinese. This guy added on his
QQ, so we chat often. He did say Hei Cha is not well understood even
in the Chinese market. So not only do they have to develop the Chinese
market and educate people, they also want to explore market
opportunities abroad. The problem though, lies in what to name the tea
- and be acceptable and embraced by the foreign market. Which is
precisely why I ask all of you for your input, since everyone here is
pretty knowledgeable about tea. So in effect, you're all helping to
shape the history of "hei cha" in the Western world - by deciding and
advising on an acceptable alternative name/names.

> Seems like a good place to look for market-embraced terminology would
> be other affordable-luxury consumables that have undergone somewhat
> similar processing like wine, spirits, cigars, c***** and cheese.

Another good idea. I don't work for this company so I don't want to
get into advising about marketing etc. They will have to figure out
how to market hei cha themselves, and how it's described in appealing
terms.

> so that, it's not only a matter of a name, but culture. and
> translating or adapting to a foreigners mind is maybe 'misculture',
> 'disculture'...

That's very true too. That's why I'm asking here to see what everyone
thinks is acceptable. It's not up to me. It's up to all of you as
knowledgeable tea friends and influencers to decide. For me
personally, I speak Chinese, so "hei cha" will always be "hei cha".
Perhaps this is not so though, for a non-Chinese speaker.

If "hei cha" doesn't sound nice in Spanish, what word would be
acceptable then? How about Te Madurado? Jeicha Te? How about Ancha Te?
(An 黯 is a synonym for black in Chinese).

> If "hei cha" doesn't sound nice in Spanish, what word would be
> acceptable then? How about Te Madurado? Jeicha Te? How about Ancha Te?
> (An 黯 is a synonym for black in Chinese).

well, 'ancha' means wide, female, so it would be: 'And here we have té
Ancha', ¿té ancho? (wide tea?) no, it's not wide, it's the name, 'Té-
An-cha'
maybe 'té jeicha' not sounding serious was too personal, i'm seeing
maybe i'm not a serious person...

following with cheese and wine, maybe 'té curado' (cured tea), would
be astonishing at first sight. 'is it possible to cure tea?', so could
be a good way to begin a conversation to go into tea in depth. also
'té maduro' (ripe tea, 'madurado' is ripened), they talk about a long
time of processing. it that sense 'crianza' (~aging) like wine, or
'reserva' (~vintage) also in wine. also 'viejo' (old) is popular for
cheese. and in any case (the way i see it) only as an explanation, not
as a name or a category.

as a category i prefer 'chinese black tea' as i said, accepting
'heicha' for the next level of understanding. anyway if chinese has
given 'black' to these teas i don't have nothing to add. english
called black to red, it's a matter or past times. now china decide in
first person how to appear to the rest of the world, so if they say
this tea is black, who is going to say the contrary? and of course
adding an official seal of 'protected origin', 'protected name' or
something in the like, will be deffinitive for finishing any foreigner
discussion.

if we were talking about olive oil or cigars maybe this discussion has
any sense, but this tea is chinese. so we are the ones to ask you,
chinese people, how do you call this and what and how and when, etc.
do you use it... i think

by the way, have you searched in this group 'hei cha'? there are some
good discussions about colours and futures some years ago.

sorry for the loooong post.

kind regards,
bonifacio barrio hijosa
http://worldoftea.iespana.es/

I thought of an idea. Everyone knows puer - exactly by the name, puer;
or puer cha 普洱茶. Puer is the name of a place and the name of a tea.
Yet it's also hei cha.
So, since the hei cha they are marketing is not from Yunnan, but
Hunan, maybe they could call it xiang cha 湘茶; or even Hunan Xiang Cha 湖
�湘茶.

On Dec 20, 10:10Â*am, niisonge > wrote:
> I thought of an idea. Everyone knows puer - exactly by the name, puer;
> or puer cha 普洱茶. Puer is the name of a place and the name of a tea.
> Yet it's also hei cha.
> So, since the hei cha they are marketing is not from Yunnan, but
> Hunan, maybe they could call it xiang cha 湘茶; or even Hunan Xiang Cha 湖
> �湘茶.

I like Xiang Cha, as an option as well. I really think it needs to be
a true word with real meaning, history, and tradition. I shy away from
fakely named teas, and I think culture and tradition are the most
valuable aspects of life left. Too much of it is getting lost in an
effort to homogenize and pander to a lowest common denominator. Once
that is lost, you can't get it back. I say fight to keep it something
real and meaningful. People have no trouble ordering their "Matcha
Latte's" so I have hope hat Hei Cha, Xiang Cha, Hunan Cha, or whatever
is settled on will be fine.

- Dominic

> I like Xiang Cha, as an option as well. I really think it needs to be
> a true word with real meaning, history, and tradition. I shy away from
> fakely named teas, and I think culture and tradition are the most
> valuable aspects of life left. Too much of it is getting lost in an
> effort to homogenize and pander to a lowest common denominator. Once
> that is lost, you can't get it back. I say fight to keep it something
> real and meaningful. People have no trouble ordering their "Matcha
> Latte's" so I have hope hat Hei Cha, Xiang Cha, Hunan Cha, or whatever
> is settled on will be fine.

Yes, they use the term Xiang Cha in China. I'm sure almost everyone is
familiar with "xiang". Xiang is just like an abbreviation or symbol to
mean Hunan province. But other types of tea besides "hei cha" are
produced there too. I don't know. Just have to see.

niisonge > writes:

> > None of these is compelling, though I'd favor hei cha. Following on
> > Lew's point, it's a pronounceable term that might carry the cachet of
> > exoticism before becoming a mainstream term.
>
> Oooooh, exotic, I like that! :-)
>
> > However, there seem to remain plenty of alternatives. In the West,
> > more usually equates to better. What about twice-cured, fully cured,
> > perfectly ripe, 100% ripe, mature, complete, etc.?
>
> Very good point, I will run that by the Chinese. This guy added on his
> QQ, so we chat often. He did say Hei Cha is not well understood even
> in the Chinese market.

Forgive the oversimplification, but I think heicha tends to be tea not
destined for consumption by Han people. Those post-fermented teas
from Hunan and Sichuan are mostly drunk by Mongolians, Uighurs,
Tibetans, and others far from the Han heartland, I think. (I know
there are exceptions: Lu'An, for one.)

Come to think of it, maybe those who are trying to find a marketing
angle for heicha should think of emphasizing the Central Asian aspect
of the tea. There's lots of Chinese tea sloshing around the world -
maybe consumers would be intrigued by a different kind of exoticism.
(Disclaimer: accepting marketing advice from me may be fatal to your
bottom line.)

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

niisonge > writes:

> > I like Xiang Cha, as an option as well. I really think it needs to be
> > a true word with real meaning, history, and tradition. I shy away from
> > fakely named teas, and I think culture and tradition are the most
> > valuable aspects of life left. Too much of it is getting lost in an
> > effort to homogenize and pander to a lowest common denominator. Once
> > that is lost, you can't get it back. I say fight to keep it something
> > real and meaningful. People have no trouble ordering their "Matcha
> > Latte's" so I have hope hat Hei Cha, Xiang Cha, Hunan Cha, or whatever
> > is settled on will be fine.
>
> Yes, they use the term Xiang Cha in China. I'm sure almost everyone is
> familiar with "xiang". Xiang is just like an abbreviation or symbol to
> mean Hunan province. But other types of tea besides "hei cha" are
> produced there too. I don't know. Just have to see.

Sorry, I'm confused. Are you saying that significant numbers of
Chinese tea lovers use the term Xiang Cha to mean post-fermented teas,
even though there are lots of well-known Hunan green teas?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

> Sorry, I'm confused. Are you saying that significant numbers of
> Chinese tea lovers use the term Xiang Cha to mean post-fermented teas,
> even though there are lots of well-known Hunan green teas?

Xiang just means Hunan (simply stated). It could mean any tea produced
in Hunan - as in Xiang Hei ÏæºÚ (Hunan black), Xiang Lv ÏæÂÌ (Hunan
green), etc. It's not generally used in China to mean post-fermented
teas, though it could; as in Xiang Hei. But, just like Puer is a
place, and applied to the name of a tea, perhaps Xiang could work in
the West to be associated with Hunan black tea. Puer and Hunan black
are the same tea type: post-fermented tea (known as black tea [hei
cha] in China).

Both Puer and Hunan black tea are compressed teas (in bricks, cakes,
etc.). So not all compressed tea can be called Puer. Moreover, Hunan
black tea, just like Puer, is also aged tea; and the longer it stores,
the better it gets. However, puer and Xiang hei have distinctly
different taste characteristics.

I think Xiang Cha or Xiang Hei works as a better name to emphasize its
distinctness from Puer, which everyone is so familiar with.

> Come to think of it, maybe those who are trying to find a marketing
> angle for heicha should think of emphasizing the Central Asian aspect
> of the tea. *There's lots of Chinese tea sloshing around the world -
> maybe consumers would be intrigued by a different kind of exoticism.

I think the marketing angle is to latch onto the Puer craze, and get
puer people into collecting and storing Hunan compressed teas. This
will probably the next trend in China; and then the trend continued in
the rest of Asia and the West.

The prices they are asking for Hunan brick/cake teas are comparable to
those of Puer.

niisonge > writes:

> > Sorry, I'm confused. Are you saying that significant numbers of
> > Chinese tea lovers use the term Xiang Cha to mean post-fermented teas,
> > even though there are lots of well-known Hunan green teas?
>
> Xiang just means Hunan (simply stated). It could mean any tea produced
> in Hunan - as in Xiang Hei ÏæºÚ (Hunan black), Xiang Lv ÏæÂÌ (Hunan
> green), etc. It's not generally used in China to mean post-fermented
> teas, though it could; as in Xiang Hei. But, just like Puer is a
> place, and applied to the name of a tea, perhaps Xiang could work in
> the West to be associated with Hunan black tea.

But Pu'er is a small place that historically traded the tea we now
call Pu'er. Hunan is a vast place where countless teas are grown,
most of them, as you know, *not* heicha. So it would be a distortion,
then, just to call the tea in question Xiang Cha, right?

What about marketing it as Lubiancha? Chinese people who know the tea
in question will know that name, I think. And maybe non-Chinese will
be beguiled by the romantic Silk Road aura it has?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

> But Pu'er is a small place that historically traded the tea we now
> call Pu'er. *Hunan is a vast place where countless teas are grown,
> most of them, as you know, *not* heicha. *So it would be a distortion,
> then, just to call the tea in question Xiang Cha, right?

Right, it would be somewhat of a distortion, maybe "Xiang Hei" would
be a better term.

> What about marketing it as Lubiancha? *Chinese people who know the tea
> in question will know that name, I think. *And maybe non-Chinese will
> be beguiled by the romantic Silk Road aura it has?

As far as Lubiancha is concerned, historically, Sichuan and Yunnan had
a much more prominent role in trading teas along those routes.

To illustrate my point for the need for a specific word or words for
the tea category "hei cha":

http://www.adagio.com/black/black_sa...a5a6a4e 68098

Why do tea vendors place western black tea (hong cha) and hei cha into
the same category? That will just lead to confusion in the
marketplace. This is exactly the point I'm trying to get across.

My friend said "bian cha" just won't cut it today. Historically,
that's what it was. But today, he said it's an old concept. They are
trying to get out of the old attitudes/conceptions toward the tea as
low-quality, I suppose.

To illustrate my point for the need for a specific word or words for
the tea category "hei cha":

http://www.adagio.com/black/black_sa...a5a6a4e 68098
http://www.harney.com/China-Black-Teas/departments/5/

Why do tea vendors place western black tea (hong cha) and hei cha into
the same category? That will just lead to confusion in the
marketplace. This is exactly the point I'm trying to get across. It
makes it harder for Chinese producers of hei cha to introduce their
product to the western market - since they're not quite sure what to
call it.

My friend said "bian cha" just won't cut it today. Historically,
that's what it was. But today, he said it's an old concept. They are
trying to get out of the old attitudes/conceptions toward the tea as
low-quality, I suppose.

Another example:
http://www.harney.com/China-Black-Teas/departments/5/

Lewis Perin wrote:
> What about marketing it as Lubiancha?

Might be an uncomfortable name in the FSU, in case that's a target market.

-DM

I think the wine industry has done a good job educating the consumer
on the difference between champagne and sparkling wines. The biggest
misnomer you will have to deal with are Indian black teas. All you
would have to say Chinese black teas are completely different. I
think Puer has established an identity. Everybody at the Puer
tastings recognizes differences in black teas like Liuan and LiuBao.
I would recommend something more branded or distinct than Hunan
heicha.

Jim

On Dec 20, 9:09 pm, niisonge > wrote:
> To illustrate my point for the need for a specific word or words for
> the tea category "hei cha":
>
> http://www.adagio.com/black/black_sa...departments/5/
>
> Why do tea vendors place western black tea (hong cha) and hei cha into
> the same category? That will just lead to confusion in the
> marketplace. This is exactly the point I'm trying to get across. It
> makes it harder for Chinese producers of hei cha to introduce their
> product to the western market - since they're not quite sure what to
> call it.
>
> My friend said "bian cha" just won't cut it today. Historically,
> that's what it was. But today, he said it's an old concept. They are
> trying to get out of the old attitudes/conceptions toward the tea as
> low-quality, I suppose.

niisonge > writes:

> > But Pu'er is a small place that historically traded the tea we now
> > call Pu'er. Â*Hunan is a vast place where countless teas are grown,
> > most of them, as you know, *not* heicha. Â*So it would be a distortion,
> > then, just to call the tea in question Xiang Cha, right?
>
> Right, it would be somewhat of a distortion, maybe "Xiang Hei" would
> be a better term.
>
> > What about marketing it as Lubiancha? Â*Chinese people who know the tea
> > in question will know that name, I think. Â*And maybe non-Chinese will
> > be beguiled by the romantic Silk Road aura it has?
>
> As far as Lubiancha is concerned, historically, Sichuan and Yunnan had
> a much more prominent role in trading teas along those routes.

Sorry, did I miss something? Are we talking only about *Hunan* heicha?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

dogma_i > writes:

> Lewis Perin wrote:
> > What about marketing it as Lubiancha?
>
> Might be an uncomfortable name in the FSU, in case that's a target market.

I'm guessing you mean Former Soviet Union rather than, say, Florida
State University. But why would they be bothered?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

> Sorry, did I miss something? *Are we talking only about *Hunan* heicha?

No, it's the general term "hei cha" and it's category name. But the
guy I was talking to is from Hunan. So I thought since they're
marketing Hunan heicha, perhaps like Yunnan Puer, it would be a good
idea to find a suitable local name to market the teas under. But that
may only partly work. Still doesn't solve the problem of which
category to put the tea under, as on vendor websites.

Lewis Perin wrote:
>>> What about marketing it as Lubiancha?
>> Might be an uncomfortable name in the FSU, in case that's a target market.
> I'm guessing you mean Former Soviet Union rather than, say, Florida
> State University. But why would they be bothered?

Looks/sounds too much like Lubyanka, a name of the worst possible repute
thereabouts.

dogma_i > writes:

> Lewis Perin wrote:
> >>> What about marketing it as Lubiancha?
> >> Might be an uncomfortable name in the FSU, in case that's a target market.
> > I'm guessing you mean Former Soviet Union rather than, say, Florida
> > State University. But why would they be bothered?
>
> Looks/sounds too much like Lubyanka, a name of the worst possible
> repute thereabouts.

Hmm, I see your point. But: as to sound, the A vowel in Bian is like
the E in Plenty; the Bian syllable is unstressed; and Cha doesn't much
sound like Ka, does it? I've no idea how these two words look in
Cyrillic; where is Sasha now that we need him?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

I thought there were several vendors talking about the name, not just
one. Anyway if there are several, i continue thinking of a brand or
distinguishing something in the package that says this is a paticular
kind of tea, not just a name. so they should join in an organization
of vendors or another more institutional that after finding the name
and using it in group, consider making a long term marketing action.
like you have been writing here about yunnan puer, champanges, etc.
and it's made with wine, cheese and local food, at least in europe,
don't know in the usa.

kind regards,
bonifacio barrio hijosa
http://worldoftea.iespana.es/

On Dec 21, 4:15*pm, niisonge > wrote:
> > Sorry, did I miss something? *Are we talking only about *Hunan* heicha?
>
> No, it's the general term "hei cha" and it's category name. But the
> guy I was talking to is from Hunan. So I thought since they're
> marketing Hunan heicha, perhaps like Yunnan Puer, it would be a good
> idea to find a suitable local name to market the teas under. But that
> may only partly work. Still doesn't solve the problem of which
> category to put the tea under, as on vendor websites.