Tea (rec.drink.tea) Discussion relating to tea, the world's second most consumed beverage (after water), made by infusing or boiling the leaves of the tea plant (C. sinensis or close relatives) in water.

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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
magnulus
 
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Default Pu-Erh: what's really in it

Aparently, it's made from green tea which has been moulded with
Aspergillus niger, which is a common mold, for about 3 months or so, then
the leaves are dried and aged for 2 years. It produces the dark mold you
find on foods like bread or fruit, and also is commonly found in peat. It
is related to Aspergillus oryzae, which is the mold used to produce Asian
fermented foods such as miso, amazake, soy sauces, and rice wine
(aspergillus oryzae, I believe, is usually lighter colored).

Food consumption of Aspergillus niger is considered safe by the World
Health Organization in small amounts, however... horticultural workers who
work with peat, peat moss, etc., may be susceptable to aspergillosis, a very
serious lung infection, particularly in people with compromised immune
systems. Aspergillus spores can also cause allergic reactions in some
individuals. Aspergillus niger doesn't produce carcinogenic mycotoxins,
however, although some other Aspergillus genus members do. Pu-erh's health
effects have been less studied than green tea, but it does appear to share
with other teas, a degree of protection of DNA and cholesterol lowering
properties (indeed, in one study the ability to neutralize nitric oxide DNA
damage was slightly greater than black tea, from what I remember), despite
the fact the tea is truely fermented (unlike black tea), leading one to ask
wheather Aspergillus niger might have some possible contribution.

I'm not expert in mycology or medicine, of course. It's interesting that
most of us throw out moldly bread, yet there's tea costing alot of money
that is covered in the stuff. To each his own, I guess.


  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
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The mold you find on a Pu-erh should be a white
one, not a black one!!! Different mold can
develop on a Pu-erh when it is placed in
different environment. Some are good, some are
BAD. The good apsergillus we Chinese talk about
is NOT aspergillus niger. Not a black mold!

It is believed that a Pu-erh has to go through
the process of developing white mold, then
letting it disappear. Only after a Pu-erh gone
through the whole process, it is considered
completely aged.

The correct process for aging a Pu-erh:

Green Pu-erh, let it ages naturally. Storage
room is the key to the aging. Experienced Pu-erh
vendor knows the value of a dry old stroage
room. It is normally guarded. I am not kidding.

Wo Dui processed (or black Pu-erh but not
includes those wet storaged ones) Pu-erh, loose
teas were first go through the Wo Dui process
(scientifically speedy aging), then compressed.
Only a few large factories know the real
process. If you are not familiar with the
factory on the label, you are better off stay
with green Pu-erh. BYW, the import/export
company Pu-erh bing cha is a product of Cha Yuan
(Tea Garden) group. Improperly processed pu-erh
can be harmful to your health. You may visit the
discussion on our site at
http://www.teahub.com/revealpuerh.htm for more
info.

Linda
www.teahub.com






> Aparently, it's made from green tea which

has been moulded with
> Aspergillus niger, which is a common mold, for

about 3 months or so, then
> the leaves are dried and aged for 2 years. It

produces the dark mold you
> find on foods like bread or fruit, and also is

commonly found in peat. It
> is related to Aspergillus oryzae, which is the

mold used to produce Asian
> fermented foods such as miso, amazake, soy

sauces, and rice wine
> (aspergillus oryzae, I believe, is usually

lighter colored).
>
> Food consumption of Aspergillus niger is

considered safe by the World
> Health Organization in small amounts,

however... horticultural workers who
> work with peat, peat moss, etc., may be

susceptable to aspergillosis, a very
> serious lung infection, particularly in people

with compromised immune
> systems. Aspergillus spores can also cause

allergic reactions in some
> individuals. Aspergillus niger doesn't

produce carcinogenic mycotoxins,
> however, although some other Aspergillus genus

members do. Pu-erh's health
> effects have been less studied than green tea,

but it does appear to share
> with other teas, a degree of protection of DNA

and cholesterol lowering
> properties (indeed, in one study the ability

to neutralize nitric oxide DNA
> damage was slightly greater than black tea,

from what I remember), despite
> the fact the tea is truely fermented (unlike

black tea), leading one to ask
> wheather Aspergillus niger might have some

possible contribution.
>
> I'm not expert in mycology or medicine, of

course. It's interesting that
> most of us throw out moldly bread, yet there's

tea costing alot of money
> that is covered in the stuff. To each his

own, I guess.
>
>
>



  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The mold you find on a Pu-erh should be a white
one, not a black one!!! Different mold can
develop on a Pu-erh when it is placed in
different environment. Some are good, some are
BAD. The good apsergillus we Chinese talk about
is NOT aspergillus niger. Not a black mold!

It is believed that a Pu-erh has to go through
the process of developing white mold, then
letting it disappear. Only after a Pu-erh gone
through the whole process, it is considered
completely aged.

The correct process for aging a Pu-erh:

Green Pu-erh, let it ages naturally. Storage
room is the key to the aging. Experienced Pu-erh
vendor knows the value of a dry old stroage
room. It is normally guarded. I am not kidding.

Wo Dui processed (or black Pu-erh but not
includes those wet storaged ones) Pu-erh, loose
teas were first go through the Wo Dui process
(scientifically speedy aging), then compressed.
Only a few large factories know the real
process. If you are not familiar with the
factory on the label, you are better off stay
with green Pu-erh. BYW, the import/export
company Pu-erh bing cha is a product of Cha Yuan
(Tea Garden) group. Improperly processed pu-erh
can be harmful to your health. You may visit the
discussion on our site at
http://www.teahub.com/revealpuerh.htm for more
info.

Linda
www.teahub.com






> Aparently, it's made from green tea which

has been moulded with
> Aspergillus niger, which is a common mold, for

about 3 months or so, then
> the leaves are dried and aged for 2 years. It

produces the dark mold you
> find on foods like bread or fruit, and also is

commonly found in peat. It
> is related to Aspergillus oryzae, which is the

mold used to produce Asian
> fermented foods such as miso, amazake, soy

sauces, and rice wine
> (aspergillus oryzae, I believe, is usually

lighter colored).
>
> Food consumption of Aspergillus niger is

considered safe by the World
> Health Organization in small amounts,

however... horticultural workers who
> work with peat, peat moss, etc., may be

susceptable to aspergillosis, a very
> serious lung infection, particularly in people

with compromised immune
> systems. Aspergillus spores can also cause

allergic reactions in some
> individuals. Aspergillus niger doesn't

produce carcinogenic mycotoxins,
> however, although some other Aspergillus genus

members do. Pu-erh's health
> effects have been less studied than green tea,

but it does appear to share
> with other teas, a degree of protection of DNA

and cholesterol lowering
> properties (indeed, in one study the ability

to neutralize nitric oxide DNA
> damage was slightly greater than black tea,

from what I remember), despite
> the fact the tea is truely fermented (unlike

black tea), leading one to ask
> wheather Aspergillus niger might have some

possible contribution.
>
> I'm not expert in mycology or medicine, of

course. It's interesting that
> most of us throw out moldly bread, yet there's

tea costing alot of money
> that is covered in the stuff. To each his

own, I guess.
>
>
>



  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
magnulus
 
Posts: n/a
Default


> wrote in message
...
> The mold you find on a Pu-erh should be a white
> one, not a black one!!! Different mold can
> develop on a Pu-erh when it is placed in
> different environment. Some are good, some are
> BAD. The good apsergillus we Chinese talk about
> is NOT aspergillus niger. Not a black mold!
>


I can't see mold on the tea, so I cannot confirm this. However, it
definitely smells like peat- rotten vegetation and peat moss.

It's 3rd grade loose Pu-Erh from Ten Ren (they sell tea on the net).
It's cheap stuff. I don't
know if the 1st and 2nd grades are better.

> Improperly processed pu-erh
> can be harmful to your health. You may visit the
> discussion on our site at
> http://www.teahub.com/revealpuerh.htm for more
> info.


The tea is drinkable if I brew it for three minutes or so. If I brew it
a full five minutes, it's
just too nasty.

With so many other good teas out there... my feeling is, why drink it?
Like everything else, I suppose it was worth a try.


  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
magnulus
 
Posts: n/a
Default


> wrote in message
...
> http://www.teahub.com/revealpuerh.htm for more
> info.
>


Judging from the description on your website, it sounds like the Pu Erh I
have is the wet processed variety. The tea it makes is almost black and
muddy looking, and the leaves themselves are dull with no color.




  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
crymad
 
Posts: n/a
Default



magnulus wrote:
>
> With so many other good teas out there... my feeling is, why drink it?


For the purported health benefits, perhaps. The few Japanese
acquaintances I know who drink Puerh all do so for tonic, not taste.
I'd be interested to learn Kuri's impressions of Puerh drinking in
Japan. Not because I place greater faith in the good taste of the
Japanese when it comes to tea, but simply because I think non-Asians are
overly respectful and hesitant to voice criticism for fear of insulting
the mysterious East's rich cultural heritage.

--crymad
  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Plant
 
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Default

As you suggested, the Pu-erh you drank is a "cooked" one, not a green one.
By all means, if its not to your liking, give up Pu-erh; but, not until
you've tried a decent green one. They are quite different.

Michael



et10/4/04


>
> > wrote in message
> ...
>> The mold you find on a Pu-erh should be a white
>> one, not a black one!!! Different mold can
>> develop on a Pu-erh when it is placed in
>> different environment. Some are good, some are
>> BAD. The good apsergillus we Chinese talk about
>> is NOT aspergillus niger. Not a black mold!
>>

>
> I can't see mold on the tea, so I cannot confirm this. However, it
> definitely smells like peat- rotten vegetation and peat moss.
>
> It's 3rd grade loose Pu-Erh from Ten Ren (they sell tea on the net).
> It's cheap stuff. I don't
> know if the 1st and 2nd grades are better.
>
>> Improperly processed pu-erh
>> can be harmful to your health. You may visit the
>> discussion on our site at
>> http://www.teahub.com/revealpuerh.htm for more
>> info.

>
> The tea is drinkable if I brew it for three minutes or so. If I brew it
> a full five minutes, it's
> just too nasty.
>
> With so many other good teas out there... my feeling is, why drink it?
> Like everything else, I suppose it was worth a try.
>
>


  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Petro
 
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Default

Actually it sounds like a standard black to me. I would recommend you
nose around on my site if you want to learn more. I not only provide a
lot of information but I also provide links to just about every Puerh
related site I know of.



Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply
  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Petro
 
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Default

Actually it sounds like a standard black to me. I would recommend you
nose around on my site if you want to learn more. I not only provide a
lot of information but I also provide links to just about every Puerh
related site I know of.



Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply
  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Space Cowboy
 
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Default

You mean there is an illegal, underground, lethal verion of this
stuff? I'd have to think if you're going too bother you'd produce
something that is non toxic so you'd have a customer the next time.
I'm calling HomeLand Security right now. Everytime you read a post
someone is uping the ante blah blah blah with the lastest one
upmanship a master for the gullible masses. It's the east pulling the
west's leg. It's the chai fad of a couple of years ago. What next
bubble puerh? You can't fool me with your only one on the block taste
in tea. Does anyone remember Darjeeling white? Hundreds of posts
with everyone blabbering about how great their free samples tasted
from the one and only plantation in India producing the stuff. So now
we have a claim of tossing out all other teas and only drinking this
stuff. Hogwash. At best this is just another taste for your
repertoire. You'll miss your Lipton's Yellow Label when you see it
behind the tea urn where they on purpose misplace the achar when you
eat at an Indian restaurant. I'll wait out the fad and buy it at my
local discount store for the 05 year end holidays. Mysterious Chinese
wrapping is a big seller. It'll go great with my $10 tetsubins from
last Christmas already in the discount stores for the holidays.

Jim

wrote in message >...
> The mold you find on a Pu-erh should be a white
> one, not a black one!!! Different mold can
> develop on a Pu-erh when it is placed in
> different environment. Some are good, some are
> BAD. The good apsergillus we Chinese talk about
> is NOT aspergillus niger. Not a black mold!
>
> It is believed that a Pu-erh has to go through
> the process of developing white mold, then
> letting it disappear. Only after a Pu-erh gone
> through the whole process, it is considered
> completely aged.

obliterated by the snip meister


  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Space Cowboy
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You mean there is an illegal, underground, lethal verion of this
stuff? I'd have to think if you're going too bother you'd produce
something that is non toxic so you'd have a customer the next time.
I'm calling HomeLand Security right now. Everytime you read a post
someone is uping the ante blah blah blah with the lastest one
upmanship a master for the gullible masses. It's the east pulling the
west's leg. It's the chai fad of a couple of years ago. What next
bubble puerh? You can't fool me with your only one on the block taste
in tea. Does anyone remember Darjeeling white? Hundreds of posts
with everyone blabbering about how great their free samples tasted
from the one and only plantation in India producing the stuff. So now
we have a claim of tossing out all other teas and only drinking this
stuff. Hogwash. At best this is just another taste for your
repertoire. You'll miss your Lipton's Yellow Label when you see it
behind the tea urn where they on purpose misplace the achar when you
eat at an Indian restaurant. I'll wait out the fad and buy it at my
local discount store for the 05 year end holidays. Mysterious Chinese
wrapping is a big seller. It'll go great with my $10 tetsubins from
last Christmas already in the discount stores for the holidays.

Jim

wrote in message >...
> The mold you find on a Pu-erh should be a white
> one, not a black one!!! Different mold can
> develop on a Pu-erh when it is placed in
> different environment. Some are good, some are
> BAD. The good apsergillus we Chinese talk about
> is NOT aspergillus niger. Not a black mold!
>
> It is believed that a Pu-erh has to go through
> the process of developing white mold, then
> letting it disappear. Only after a Pu-erh gone
> through the whole process, it is considered
> completely aged.

obliterated by the snip meister
  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
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Very likely the pu-erh you got is wet storaged.
What about the wet leaves? Do they look rotten,
lack of texture? If the answer is yes, then it is
a wet storaged Pu-erh for sure. Regardless, the
one you have is not a good quality one for sure.
Try the following: wash the tea few times before
you drink it. Also, shorten your brewing time. If
you were brewing it with a gai wan, do not cover
it. Or, if you can find a thick wall rough clay
purple clay teapot, use it to brew the pu-erh you
have.

Grade 3 Pu-erh should be pretty good. Although an
expensive Pu-erh is not necessarily a good Pu-
erh, a cheap Pu-erh is for sure a low quality
one. There is just too many fixed costs in
producing a good quality one.

Also, as I have mentioned many times on this news
group, the taste of a real black (Wo Dui) pu-erh
will actually improve after being stored for a
few years.

Hope this helps.

Linda
www.teahub.com

>
> > wrote in message
> ...
> > http://www.teahub.com/revealpuerh.htm for more
> > info.
> >

>
> Judging from the description on your website,

it sounds like the Pu Erh I
> have is the wet processed variety. The tea it

makes is almost black and
> muddy looking, and the leaves themselves are

dull with no color.
>
>
>



  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Petro
 
Posts: n/a
Default


>You mean there is an illegal, underground, lethal verion of this
>stuff?

<snip>

Actually Jim she is being pretty truthful here about the molds. I
have done a LOT of research on molds lately and what she says about
them is true. The point that was made about how "improperly" stored
puer "can" be unhealthy is quite accurate. The environment can
encourage or inhibit the growth of mold strains. You can definitely
create an environment that encourages the growth of bad mold strains.

Now the part about "only" large factories know how to make black puer
is debatable. Although it is conceivable that someone could screw up
the microbial soup. It is also very conceivable that it might wind up
here if it did occur as I truly believe that we in the west often get
Asia's rejects. There is such a thing as "Junk Tea" dealers who
peddle, what we call factory seconds/rejects, to those looking for
really cheap tea.

Mike
  #14 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Petro
 
Posts: n/a
Default


>You mean there is an illegal, underground, lethal verion of this
>stuff?

<snip>

Actually Jim she is being pretty truthful here about the molds. I
have done a LOT of research on molds lately and what she says about
them is true. The point that was made about how "improperly" stored
puer "can" be unhealthy is quite accurate. The environment can
encourage or inhibit the growth of mold strains. You can definitely
create an environment that encourages the growth of bad mold strains.

Now the part about "only" large factories know how to make black puer
is debatable. Although it is conceivable that someone could screw up
the microbial soup. It is also very conceivable that it might wind up
here if it did occur as I truly believe that we in the west often get
Asia's rejects. There is such a thing as "Junk Tea" dealers who
peddle, what we call factory seconds/rejects, to those looking for
really cheap tea.

Mike
  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Petro
 
Posts: n/a
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>The good apsergillus we Chinese talk about
>is NOT aspergillus niger. Not a black mold!


Linda,

Which strain of Aspergillus is the good mold?

Mike


  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Petro
 
Posts: n/a
Default

>The good apsergillus we Chinese talk about
>is NOT aspergillus niger. Not a black mold!


Linda,

Which strain of Aspergillus is the good mold?

Mike
  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
cc
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"crymad" > wrote in message

> For the purported health benefits, perhaps. The few Japanese
> acquaintances I know who drink Puerh all do so for tonic, not taste.


It's true that, until recently, there was mostly low quality (=absolutely
tasteless) bagged
puer sold in shops of kampo (Chinese herbal healing). So you're right many
people drink some like they drink their cabbage juice and ginseng soup.
It's like Europeans and probably also Americans that intake any lower-end
green tea (sometimes in form of instant or pills) because the
homeo-witch-doctor said that would cure them.

> I'd be interested to learn Kuri's impressions of Puerh drinking in
> Japan. Not because I place greater faith in the good taste of the
> Japanese when it comes to tea, but simply because I think non-Asians are
> overly respectful and hesitant to voice criticism for fear of insulting
> the mysterious East's rich cultural heritage.


And you think you'll find many Japanese to voice criticism on
holy-saint-Chinese-tea ? That's not their style.
As I've said before, recently the offer of good quality Chinese teas has
become extraordinary.
Decent to good Puers have a little space on the big shelf. It's not widely
known. I think the minority that drinks regularly good puer sincerely likes
the taste.
If I serve Puer to Japanese people not used to it, they assume it's some
*European* red tea or some oolong they didn't know, I mean they don't seem
to find anything weird in the taste.
Well, people in Osaka are not easily surprised by teas.


Kuri

  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
crymad
 
Posts: n/a
Default



cc wrote:
>
> "crymad" > wrote in message
>
> > I'd be interested to learn Kuri's impressions of Puerh drinking in
> > Japan. Not because I place greater faith in the good taste of the
> > Japanese when it comes to tea, but simply because I think non-Asians are
> > overly respectful and hesitant to voice criticism for fear of insulting
> > the mysterious East's rich cultural heritage.

>
> And you think you'll find many Japanese to voice criticism on
> holy-saint-Chinese-tea ? That's not their style.


Oh, you give them too much credit. Any self-respecting Japanese knows
Chinese rice and soy sauce stinks to high heaven. Why should tea get
special treatment?

> As I've said before, recently the offer of good quality Chinese teas has
> become extraordinary.
> Decent to good Puers have a little space on the big shelf. It's not widely
> known. I think the minority that drinks regularly good puer sincerely likes
> the taste.
> If I serve Puer to Japanese people not used to it, they assume it's some
> *European* red tea or some oolong they didn't know, I mean they don't seem
> to find anything weird in the taste.


This comes as quite a surprise.

--crymad
  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
samarkand
 
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I hope you meant Chinese rice wine and not Chinese rice? Soy sauce doesn't
stink heaven high, fish sauce does the job better. Soy sauce stinks
terribly while fermenting, but the end product can make the food taste
better. I'm not sure how many types of soy sauce Japanese have in their
cuisine, I'm always baffled by the soy sauce for the sushi and the tempura
and many others, but in Chinese cuisine, we have more than 4 types, and some
soy sauce can be sweet instead of salty, so I wonder to which soy sauce the
self-respecting Japanese considers stinky?

Samar

"crymad" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> cc wrote:
> >
> > "crymad" > wrote in message
> >
> > > I'd be interested to learn Kuri's impressions of Puerh drinking in
> > > Japan. Not because I place greater faith in the good taste of the
> > > Japanese when it comes to tea, but simply because I think non-Asians

are
> > > overly respectful and hesitant to voice criticism for fear of

insulting
> > > the mysterious East's rich cultural heritage.

> >
> > And you think you'll find many Japanese to voice criticism on
> > holy-saint-Chinese-tea ? That's not their style.

>
> Oh, you give them too much credit. Any self-respecting Japanese knows
> Chinese rice and soy sauce stinks to high heaven. Why should tea get
> special treatment?
>



  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
samarkand
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Actually, as an Asian who love tea, and who have been corresponding to many
non-Asian tea lovers, I find the ones most quick to voice criticism on tea
and its culture are non-Asians. Whether the criticism is borne out of
ignorance, misguided knowledge, or half-knowledge, I'm not certain, but I
often find their arguments leaning on personal preferences and partial
knowledge.

If I were to drink a lousy Starbuck latte in one place, I don't think I have
the right to dismiss that all Starbuck lattes are terrible. Likewise with
Pu'er, some of us may have a bad experience with Pu'er, and readily dismiss
the tea whenever it is mentioned. I believe we should give the tea more
opportunity to unravel itself to us before we judge it.

I think the biggest misconception here is that people believe Pu'er must
come with mold. The truth is, classes of aspergillus niger, penicillium,
rhizopus, aspergillus gloucus, saccharomyces, and bacterium are active only
during the Wo Dui process. Through a system of delicate balance, these
active 'agents' break down the phytochemical structure of the tea while
fighting to cross out each other. The tea leaves need to be baked again at
high heat to kill the bacteria and Fungi. These loose leaves are then
either steamed once more before compressing or left as loose leaf.
Whichever the 'fate', Pu'er from this stage onwards does not neccesary need
a host of fungi or bacteria, the oxidation and fermentation should wholly
take place within the leaves' phytochemical structure, hence the golden rule
of storing Pu'er is to keep it in a area where it is airy and dry - to
prevent mold.

Reading over the records and books on Pu'er, I believe that this praise over
'moldy' Pu'er is stemmed from an earlier misconception, where the old Pu'er
hunted down by early Taiwanese Pu'er fanatic fans were found in old Hongkong
eateries, where the teas were not stored properly.

Pu'er liquor should be amber and clear, and the steeping not too long till
it yields a mucky black sludge. Dried cooked Pu'er should smell of clean
old libraries, not a fishery or warehouse. If you find mold on the Pu'er
cake, take a soft brush to brush it off. And when you brew, use very hot
water and discard the 1st round. A good cup of Pu'er is one where you can
see the bottom of the cup through the amber liquor, if you see your own
reflection staring back on the dark surface, then your tea is probably too
strong.

Samar


"crymad" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> magnulus wrote:
> >
> > With so many other good teas out there... my feeling is, why drink it?

>
> For the purported health benefits, perhaps. The few Japanese
> acquaintances I know who drink Puerh all do so for tonic, not taste.
> I'd be interested to learn Kuri's impressions of Puerh drinking in
> Japan. Not because I place greater faith in the good taste of the
> Japanese when it comes to tea, but simply because I think non-Asians are
> overly respectful and hesitant to voice criticism for fear of insulting
> the mysterious East's rich cultural heritage.
>
> --crymad



  #24 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Plant
 
Posts: n/a
Default

/6/04

>
> Actually, as an Asian who love tea, and who have been corresponding to many
> non-Asian tea lovers, I find the ones most quick to voice criticism on tea
> and its culture are non-Asians. Whether the criticism is borne out of
> ignorance, misguided knowledge, or half-knowledge, I'm not certain, but I
> often find their arguments leaning on personal preferences and partial
> knowledge.
>
> If I were to drink a lousy Starbuck latte in one place, I don't think I have
> the right to dismiss that all Starbuck lattes are terrible.


Actually, you probably do; because Starbucks prides itself on consistency
from time to time and store to store.

>Likewise with
> Pu'er, some of us may have a bad experience with Pu'er, and readily dismiss
> the tea whenever it is mentioned. I believe we should give the tea more
> opportunity to unravel itself to us before we judge it.


Absolutely right, in my opinion. But, there is a "Pu-erh taste" that might
just not be to everybody's liking. There are qualities that tie green
Pu-erh, for example, together.
>
> I think the biggest misconception here is that people believe Pu'er must
> come with mold. The truth is, classes of aspergillus niger, penicillium,
> rhizopus, aspergillus gloucus, saccharomyces, and bacterium are active only
> during the Wo Dui process. Through a system of delicate balance, these
> active 'agents' break down the phytochemical structure of the tea while
> fighting to cross out each other. The tea leaves need to be baked again at
> high heat to kill the bacteria and Fungi. These loose leaves are then
> either steamed once more before compressing or left as loose leaf.
> Whichever the 'fate', Pu'er from this stage onwards does not neccesary need
> a host of fungi or bacteria, the oxidation and fermentation should wholly
> take place within the leaves' phytochemical structure, hence the golden rule
> of storing Pu'er is to keep it in a area where it is airy and dry - to
> prevent mold.


OK so far.
>
> Reading over the records and books on Pu'er, I believe that this praise over
> 'moldy' Pu'er is stemmed from an earlier misconception, where the old Pu'er
> hunted down by early Taiwanese Pu'er fanatic fans were found in old Hongkong
> eateries, where the teas were not stored properly.


Well, if it's in really bad condition, send it on to America and tell us its
rare. That usually does it.
>
> Pu'er liquor should be amber and clear, and the steeping not too long till
> it yields a mucky black sludge. Dried cooked Pu'er should smell of clean
> old libraries, not a fishery or warehouse.


I love clean old libraries, but what about that clean earth/loam/peat/
wet-leaves-beneath-my-feet smell that I find often in nice cooked Pu-erhs?
I like that. As for old books, I am happily reading one, but steeping it
would be another matter entirely. I'm trying to get a handle on your
association here.

>If you find mold on the Pu'er
> cake, take a soft brush to brush it off. And when you brew, use very hot
> water and discard the 1st round. A good cup of Pu'er is one where you can
> see the bottom of the cup through the amber liquor, if you see your own
> reflection staring back on the dark surface, then your tea is probably too
> strong.


I started out with Pu-erhs thinking that an opaque black liquor was proper.
Now, I know better. Here's my question, though: Would a "good" Pu-erh,
cooked or uncooked, ever become opaque? Would that opacity indicate
something else, such as wet stored Pu-erh?

Another Pu-erh question: There seems to be a common idea that adolescent
Pu-erhs taste harsher than those that are either younger and older. That is
to say, a 7 year old will be harsh, while a two year old or 20 year old will
not. Trouble is, I've not found this to be so for the most part. Any ideas?
Perhaps it's because "harsh" is too harsh a word, and these are relative
qualities. Whatever.

Michael


  #25 (permalink)   Report Post  
Alex Chaihorsky
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Sorry, Michael -

With all due respect, this is a legend. I have had such shitty coffee at SB
that you wouldn't believe.
And I am not talking about airport SB, which are all below standard, but
at-mall variety that are supposed to be better ones.

Sasha.

"Michael Plant" > wrote in message
...
> /6/04
>
>>
>> Actually, as an Asian who love tea, and who have been corresponding to
>> many
>> non-Asian tea lovers, I find the ones most quick to voice criticism on
>> tea
>> and its culture are non-Asians. Whether the criticism is borne out of
>> ignorance, misguided knowledge, or half-knowledge, I'm not certain, but I
>> often find their arguments leaning on personal preferences and partial
>> knowledge.
>>
>> If I were to drink a lousy Starbuck latte in one place, I don't think I
>> have
>> the right to dismiss that all Starbuck lattes are terrible.

>
> Actually, you probably do; because Starbucks prides itself on consistency
> from time to time and store to store.
>
>>Likewise with
>> Pu'er, some of us may have a bad experience with Pu'er, and readily
>> dismiss
>> the tea whenever it is mentioned. I believe we should give the tea more
>> opportunity to unravel itself to us before we judge it.

>
> Absolutely right, in my opinion. But, there is a "Pu-erh taste" that might
> just not be to everybody's liking. There are qualities that tie green
> Pu-erh, for example, together.
>>
>> I think the biggest misconception here is that people believe Pu'er must
>> come with mold. The truth is, classes of aspergillus niger, penicillium,
>> rhizopus, aspergillus gloucus, saccharomyces, and bacterium are active
>> only
>> during the Wo Dui process. Through a system of delicate balance, these
>> active 'agents' break down the phytochemical structure of the tea while
>> fighting to cross out each other. The tea leaves need to be baked again
>> at
>> high heat to kill the bacteria and Fungi. These loose leaves are then
>> either steamed once more before compressing or left as loose leaf.
>> Whichever the 'fate', Pu'er from this stage onwards does not neccesary
>> need
>> a host of fungi or bacteria, the oxidation and fermentation should wholly
>> take place within the leaves' phytochemical structure, hence the golden
>> rule
>> of storing Pu'er is to keep it in a area where it is airy and dry - to
>> prevent mold.

>
> OK so far.
>>
>> Reading over the records and books on Pu'er, I believe that this praise
>> over
>> 'moldy' Pu'er is stemmed from an earlier misconception, where the old
>> Pu'er
>> hunted down by early Taiwanese Pu'er fanatic fans were found in old
>> Hongkong
>> eateries, where the teas were not stored properly.

>
> Well, if it's in really bad condition, send it on to America and tell us
> its
> rare. That usually does it.
>>
>> Pu'er liquor should be amber and clear, and the steeping not too long
>> till
>> it yields a mucky black sludge. Dried cooked Pu'er should smell of clean
>> old libraries, not a fishery or warehouse.

>
> I love clean old libraries, but what about that clean earth/loam/peat/
> wet-leaves-beneath-my-feet smell that I find often in nice cooked Pu-erhs?
> I like that. As for old books, I am happily reading one, but steeping it
> would be another matter entirely. I'm trying to get a handle on your
> association here.
>
>>If you find mold on the Pu'er
>> cake, take a soft brush to brush it off. And when you brew, use very hot
>> water and discard the 1st round. A good cup of Pu'er is one where you
>> can
>> see the bottom of the cup through the amber liquor, if you see your own
>> reflection staring back on the dark surface, then your tea is probably
>> too
>> strong.

>
> I started out with Pu-erhs thinking that an opaque black liquor was
> proper.
> Now, I know better. Here's my question, though: Would a "good" Pu-erh,
> cooked or uncooked, ever become opaque? Would that opacity indicate
> something else, such as wet stored Pu-erh?
>
> Another Pu-erh question: There seems to be a common idea that adolescent
> Pu-erhs taste harsher than those that are either younger and older. That
> is
> to say, a 7 year old will be harsh, while a two year old or 20 year old
> will
> not. Trouble is, I've not found this to be so for the most part. Any
> ideas?
> Perhaps it's because "harsh" is too harsh a word, and these are relative
> qualities. Whatever.
>
> Michael
>
>





  #26 (permalink)   Report Post  
Alex Chaihorsky
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Sorry, Michael -

With all due respect, this is a legend. I have had such shitty coffee at SB
that you wouldn't believe.
And I am not talking about airport SB, which are all below standard, but
at-mall variety that are supposed to be better ones.

Sasha.

"Michael Plant" > wrote in message
...
> /6/04
>
>>
>> Actually, as an Asian who love tea, and who have been corresponding to
>> many
>> non-Asian tea lovers, I find the ones most quick to voice criticism on
>> tea
>> and its culture are non-Asians. Whether the criticism is borne out of
>> ignorance, misguided knowledge, or half-knowledge, I'm not certain, but I
>> often find their arguments leaning on personal preferences and partial
>> knowledge.
>>
>> If I were to drink a lousy Starbuck latte in one place, I don't think I
>> have
>> the right to dismiss that all Starbuck lattes are terrible.

>
> Actually, you probably do; because Starbucks prides itself on consistency
> from time to time and store to store.
>
>>Likewise with
>> Pu'er, some of us may have a bad experience with Pu'er, and readily
>> dismiss
>> the tea whenever it is mentioned. I believe we should give the tea more
>> opportunity to unravel itself to us before we judge it.

>
> Absolutely right, in my opinion. But, there is a "Pu-erh taste" that might
> just not be to everybody's liking. There are qualities that tie green
> Pu-erh, for example, together.
>>
>> I think the biggest misconception here is that people believe Pu'er must
>> come with mold. The truth is, classes of aspergillus niger, penicillium,
>> rhizopus, aspergillus gloucus, saccharomyces, and bacterium are active
>> only
>> during the Wo Dui process. Through a system of delicate balance, these
>> active 'agents' break down the phytochemical structure of the tea while
>> fighting to cross out each other. The tea leaves need to be baked again
>> at
>> high heat to kill the bacteria and Fungi. These loose leaves are then
>> either steamed once more before compressing or left as loose leaf.
>> Whichever the 'fate', Pu'er from this stage onwards does not neccesary
>> need
>> a host of fungi or bacteria, the oxidation and fermentation should wholly
>> take place within the leaves' phytochemical structure, hence the golden
>> rule
>> of storing Pu'er is to keep it in a area where it is airy and dry - to
>> prevent mold.

>
> OK so far.
>>
>> Reading over the records and books on Pu'er, I believe that this praise
>> over
>> 'moldy' Pu'er is stemmed from an earlier misconception, where the old
>> Pu'er
>> hunted down by early Taiwanese Pu'er fanatic fans were found in old
>> Hongkong
>> eateries, where the teas were not stored properly.

>
> Well, if it's in really bad condition, send it on to America and tell us
> its
> rare. That usually does it.
>>
>> Pu'er liquor should be amber and clear, and the steeping not too long
>> till
>> it yields a mucky black sludge. Dried cooked Pu'er should smell of clean
>> old libraries, not a fishery or warehouse.

>
> I love clean old libraries, but what about that clean earth/loam/peat/
> wet-leaves-beneath-my-feet smell that I find often in nice cooked Pu-erhs?
> I like that. As for old books, I am happily reading one, but steeping it
> would be another matter entirely. I'm trying to get a handle on your
> association here.
>
>>If you find mold on the Pu'er
>> cake, take a soft brush to brush it off. And when you brew, use very hot
>> water and discard the 1st round. A good cup of Pu'er is one where you
>> can
>> see the bottom of the cup through the amber liquor, if you see your own
>> reflection staring back on the dark surface, then your tea is probably
>> too
>> strong.

>
> I started out with Pu-erhs thinking that an opaque black liquor was
> proper.
> Now, I know better. Here's my question, though: Would a "good" Pu-erh,
> cooked or uncooked, ever become opaque? Would that opacity indicate
> something else, such as wet stored Pu-erh?
>
> Another Pu-erh question: There seems to be a common idea that adolescent
> Pu-erhs taste harsher than those that are either younger and older. That
> is
> to say, a 7 year old will be harsh, while a two year old or 20 year old
> will
> not. Trouble is, I've not found this to be so for the most part. Any
> ideas?
> Perhaps it's because "harsh" is too harsh a word, and these are relative
> qualities. Whatever.
>
> Michael
>
>



  #27 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Plant
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Alex gy.com10/6/04


> Sorry, Michael -
>
> With all due respect, this is a legend. I have had such shitty coffee at SB
> that you wouldn't believe.
> And I am not talking about airport SB, which are all below standard, but
> at-mall variety that are supposed to be better ones.
>
> Sasha.


Sasha,

It is my carefully considered opinion that Starbucks has *no* standards. And
their shitty coffee can be got in *any* of their many branches.

Michael


  #28 (permalink)   Report Post  
samarkand
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Miachael,

"Michael Plant" > wrote in message
...
> /6/04
>
> >
> > Actually, as an Asian who love tea, and who have been corresponding to

many
> > non-Asian tea lovers, I find the ones most quick to voice criticism on

tea
> > and its culture are non-Asians. Whether the criticism is borne out of
> > ignorance, misguided knowledge, or half-knowledge, I'm not certain, but

I
> > often find their arguments leaning on personal preferences and partial
> > knowledge.
> >
> > If I were to drink a lousy Starbuck latte in one place, I don't think I

have
> > the right to dismiss that all Starbuck lattes are terrible.

>
> Actually, you probably do; because Starbucks prides itself on consistency
> from time to time and store to store.


I won't bet on that though, Starbucks latte in Beijing tastes terrible as
compared to one I get in NYC, and frappaccino has ice bits you can crunch
on. Starbucks needs to work on their Beijing office! :")

>
> >Likewise with
> > Pu'er, some of us may have a bad experience with Pu'er, and readily

dismiss
> > the tea whenever it is mentioned. I believe we should give the tea more
> > opportunity to unravel itself to us before we judge it.

>
> Absolutely right, in my opinion. But, there is a "Pu-erh taste" that might
> just not be to everybody's liking. There are qualities that tie green
> Pu-erh, for example, together.
> >
> > I think the biggest misconception here is that people believe Pu'er must
> > come with mold. The truth is, classes of aspergillus niger, penicillium,
> > rhizopus, aspergillus gloucus, saccharomyces, and bacterium are active

only
> > during the Wo Dui process. Through a system of delicate balance, these
> > active 'agents' break down the phytochemical structure of the tea while
> > fighting to cross out each other. The tea leaves need to be baked again

at
> > high heat to kill the bacteria and Fungi. These loose leaves are then
> > either steamed once more before compressing or left as loose leaf.
> > Whichever the 'fate', Pu'er from this stage onwards does not neccesary

need
> > a host of fungi or bacteria, the oxidation and fermentation should

wholly
> > take place within the leaves' phytochemical structure, hence the golden

rule
> > of storing Pu'er is to keep it in a area where it is airy and dry - to
> > prevent mold.

>
> OK so far.
> >
> > Reading over the records and books on Pu'er, I believe that this praise

over
> > 'moldy' Pu'er is stemmed from an earlier misconception, where the old

Pu'er
> > hunted down by early Taiwanese Pu'er fanatic fans were found in old

Hongkong
> > eateries, where the teas were not stored properly.

>
> Well, if it's in really bad condition, send it on to America and tell us

its
> rare. That usually does it.

Sorry, I think they did better, they sent it to Taiwan and told them it's
rare...haha!

> >
> > Pu'er liquor should be amber and clear, and the steeping not too long

till
> > it yields a mucky black sludge. Dried cooked Pu'er should smell of

clean
> > old libraries, not a fishery or warehouse.

>
> I love clean old libraries, but what about that clean earth/loam/peat/
> wet-leaves-beneath-my-feet smell that I find often in nice cooked Pu-erhs?
> I like that. As for old books, I am happily reading one, but steeping it
> would be another matter entirely. I'm trying to get a handle on your
> association here.

Hmm, I still don't like the smell of clean earth, there's a smell that some
chinese pu'er lovers call 'water' - I guess the closest association I can
give that is the smell of the air after a heavy rain. A good pu'er
shouldn't smell like that, it should smell like a good well kept old book,
like when you open the book and smell the pages, and it smells of clean
crisp paper...my fetish...haha!

>
> >If you find mold on the Pu'er
> > cake, take a soft brush to brush it off. And when you brew, use very

hot
> > water and discard the 1st round. A good cup of Pu'er is one where you

can
> > see the bottom of the cup through the amber liquor, if you see your own
> > reflection staring back on the dark surface, then your tea is probably

too
> > strong.

>
> I started out with Pu-erhs thinking that an opaque black liquor was

proper.
> Now, I know better. Here's my question, though: Would a "good" Pu-erh,
> cooked or uncooked, ever become opaque? Would that opacity indicate
> something else, such as wet stored Pu-erh?

I take it that you mean the liquor? New uncooked Pu'er will yield a
greenish yellow liquor, and as it ages, the liquor will turn into a darker
yellow, and probably lightly amber, but never opaque. I understand that -
though I've yet tasted one - when the uncooked pu'er gets past its optimal
age, the liquor will begin to turn pale, in reverse order.
Fresh uncooked pu'er will take on an astringent and sharp taste, and many
people find it awful, with the exception of the locals in Yunnan, who mostly
prefer to drink fresh new uncooked pu'er over the cooked or aged variety.
So many people keep the uncooked pu'er over a period of time. Some
factories do not print their production date on the uncooked pu'er, so the
age is often determined by the 'trained' eye of a pu'er expert. It is
generally accepted that uncooked pu'er needs about 5 years of proper
oxidation before it can be consumed, and the older it is, the better.
There's however, no agreement on when is the optimal age though. Lab tests
in Taiwan and China on 100 odd year old pu'er showed that the tea's healthy
properties are only in traces in these century old pu'ers.

For cooked pu'er, the liquor should never be opaque either, but a light to
dark amber. Dark opaque liquor usually means a) brewing too much leaves,
b)overbrewing, c) new cooked pu'er, d) cooked pu'er of a lower quality,
Wet stored pu'er is a trick employed by dishonest makers to make a quick
turnover on the pu'er to meet the increasing demand. I've not come across
any lab reports on it and how it may affect us, I'll post it if there are
any reports.

>
> Another Pu-erh question: There seems to be a common idea that adolescent
> Pu-erhs taste harsher than those that are either younger and older. That

is
> to say, a 7 year old will be harsh, while a two year old or 20 year old

will
> not. Trouble is, I've not found this to be so for the most part. Any

ideas?
> Perhaps it's because "harsh" is too harsh a word, and these are relative
> qualities. Whatever.

Interesting. This is the first time I've heard about this. From what I
know, read and been told, pu'er 'mellows' with age, there's no mention that
pu'er will go through an adolescent 'angst'.

Samar


  #29 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Plant
 
Posts: n/a
Default

/6/04

snip snip snip

>> I started with Pu-erhs thinking that an opaque black liquor was proper.
>> Now, I know better. Here's my question, though: Would a "good" Pu-erh,
>> cooked or uncooked, ever become opaque? Would that opacity indicate
>> something else, such as wet stored Pu-erh?


> I take it that you mean the liquor?


Yes.

>New uncooked Pu'er will yield a
> greenish yellow liquor, and as it ages, the liquor will turn into a darker
> yellow, and probably lightly amber, but never opaque. I understand that -
> though I've yet tasted one - when the uncooked pu'er gets past its optimal
> age, the liquor will begin to turn pale, in reverse order.


That's interesting. I can't afford to drink a Pu-erh of that age, but I did
once buy a lousy example of a 50 year old Pu-erh (from Rishi tea) whose
liquor color is indeed rather pale. Maybe this was in fact an example of
what you are describing. The leaf quality is quite poor.

> Fresh uncooked pu'er will take on an astringent and sharp taste, and many
> people find it awful, with the exception of the locals in Yunnan, who mostly
> prefer to drink fresh new uncooked pu'er over the cooked or aged variety.


I've tried new ones whose tastes are in fact gentle yeast-fruit-flowery,
complex, and giving. So, a really well made new one of good breeding can
deliver a lovely tea. And when they age they will be worth their weight in
gold.

> So many people keep the uncooked pu'er over a period of time. Some
> factories do not print their production date on the uncooked pu'er, so the
> age is often determined by the 'trained' eye of a pu'er expert. It is
> generally accepted that uncooked pu'er needs about 5 years of proper
> oxidation before it can be consumed, and the older it is, the better.


I've had some very nice 1999's. So, the 5 year mark might be just about
right.

> There's however, no agreement on when is the optimal age though. Lab tests
> in Taiwan and China on 100 odd year old pu'er showed that the tea's healthy
> properties are only in traces in these century old pu'ers.


Could you link us to, or otherwise provide, that information? I would like
to read *anything* about 100 year old Pu-erh.
>
> For cooked pu'er, the liquor should never be opaque either, but a light to
> dark amber. Dark opaque liquor usually means a) brewing too much leaves,
> b)overbrewing, c) new cooked pu'er, d) cooked pu'er of a lower quality,
> Wet stored pu'er is a trick employed by dishonest makers to make a quick
> turnover on the pu'er to meet the increasing demand. I've not come across
> any lab reports on it and how it may affect us, I'll post it if there are
> any reports.


It has been my experience that Pu-erhs that produce an opaque black liquor
do so rather quickly, after a short steep time. They are usually soft in
taste, and not too interesting, although not particularly unpleasant either.

[Michael on youthful Pu-erhs]
> Interesting. This is the first time I've heard about this. From what I
> know, read and been told, pu'er 'mellows' with age, there's no mention that
> pu'er will go through an adolescent 'angst'.


We'll just have to keep our eyes and noses out.

Another question: Is the age of the Pu-erh, as revealed through examnation
of the coloration of the dry cake, relative or absolute? That is, is it
possible that one cake will mature more or less quickly than another, moving
through the color stages therefore more or less quickly? And if so, does
this impact on the quality of the tea?

Jump in here, other mavens and mavenettes.

Michael

  #30 (permalink)   Report Post  
samarkand
 
Posts: n/a
Default

& snip snip snip

"Michael Plant" > wrote in message
...
> /6/04
>
> snip snip snip


> That's interesting. I can't afford to drink a Pu-erh of that age, but I

did
> once buy a lousy example of a 50 year old Pu-erh (from Rishi tea) whose
> liquor color is indeed rather pale. Maybe this was in fact an example of
> what you are describing. The leaf quality is quite poor.
>

I don't think I've even drank any pu'er of that age! The closest I've
drunk, according to its owner, is a 40 year old cake. Question: you
mentioned that the leaf quality is quite poor, how do you determine that?


> > Fresh uncooked pu'er will take on an astringent and sharp taste, and

many
> > people find it awful, with the exception of the locals in Yunnan, who

mostly
> > prefer to drink fresh new uncooked pu'er over the cooked or aged

variety.
>
> I've tried new ones whose tastes are in fact gentle yeast-fruit-flowery,
> complex, and giving. So, a really well made new one of good breeding can
> deliver a lovely tea. And when they age they will be worth their weight in
> gold.
>
> > So many people keep the uncooked pu'er over a period of time. Some
> > factories do not print their production date on the uncooked pu'er, so

the
> > age is often determined by the 'trained' eye of a pu'er expert. It is
> > generally accepted that uncooked pu'er needs about 5 years of proper
> > oxidation before it can be consumed, and the older it is, the better.

>
> I've had some very nice 1999's. So, the 5 year mark might be just about
> right.
>

Are they uncooked or cooked? Spread them out and sample them over the next
couple of years, I'm sure they'll get even better!

> > There's however, no agreement on when is the optimal age though. Lab

tests
> > in Taiwan and China on 100 odd year old pu'er showed that the tea's

healthy
> > properties are only in traces in these century old pu'ers.

>
> Could you link us to, or otherwise provide, that information? I would like
> to read *anything* about 100 year old Pu-erh.

I'm not sure if Mike Petro's site has any info on this, the other links I'm
giving here are of chinese websites:

http://www.888tea.com/
http://www.peinfo.net/ - you have to register to enter...
http://www.puerh-teapot.com/index.jsp
http://www.858tea.com/
http://www.wwwart.com.tw/tea/
> >
> > For cooked pu'er, the liquor should never be opaque either, but a light

to
> > dark amber. Dark opaque liquor usually means a) brewing too much

leaves,
> > b)overbrewing, c) new cooked pu'er, d) cooked pu'er of a lower quality,
> > Wet stored pu'er is a trick employed by dishonest makers to make a quick
> > turnover on the pu'er to meet the increasing demand. I've not come

across
> > any lab reports on it and how it may affect us, I'll post it if there

are
> > any reports.

>
> It has been my experience that Pu-erhs that produce an opaque black liquor
> do so rather quickly, after a short steep time. They are usually soft in
> taste, and not too interesting, although not particularly unpleasant

either.
>
> [Michael on youthful Pu-erhs]
> > Interesting. This is the first time I've heard about this. From what I
> > know, read and been told, pu'er 'mellows' with age, there's no mention

that
> > pu'er will go through an adolescent 'angst'.

>
> We'll just have to keep our eyes and noses out.
>
> Another question: Is the age of the Pu-erh, as revealed through

examnation
> of the coloration of the dry cake, relative or absolute? That is, is it
> possible that one cake will mature more or less quickly than another,

moving
> through the color stages therefore more or less quickly? And if so, does
> this impact on the quality of the tea?
>

I don't think anything's absolute when the age of a Pu'er is determined
through aural examination of the cake, unless it comes with more evidence
(factory's inner flyer which includes the date - rare, or date of
manufacture on the wrapper, etc) then can only one make a better estimate on
the age. So I'll go with relative. It is possible for two cakes of the
same manufacture date to age differently, the storage area, the handling of
the cake, etc, will contribute to its ageing process. On the other hand, an
old chinese tea saying goes that Pu'er is a social cake, meaning that for
the cake to mature nicely, it has to be kept with other Pu'ers, so they can
all age gracefully. How does that come about I have the faintest idea, I
suppose there must be some symbiotic relationship somewhere.

Samar




  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Plant
 
Posts: n/a
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/6/04

> & snip snip snip

and snip
>
> I don't think I've even drank any pu'er of that age! The closest I've
> drunk, according to its owner, is a 40 year old cake. Question: you
> mentioned that the leaf quality is quite poor, how do you determine that?


Easily. When the chunk of the cake falls completely apart in the water after
several steepings, it shows as twiggy, stemmy, ratty, with small bits of
leaf. Others show whole leaf, sometimes small sized leaves, which would
indicate a higher quality.

> Are they uncooked or cooked? Spread them out and sample them over the next
> couple of years, I'm sure they'll get even better!


Both. Mostly uncooked. I will do that, of course.

>>,,,,I would like
>> to read *anything* about 100 year old Pu-erh.


> I'm not sure if Mike Petro's site has any info on this, the other links I'm
> giving here are of chinese websites:


OK. Thanks. I'll use Babelfish as my translator. I can't do better than that
right now.
>
> http://www.888tea.com/
> http://www.peinfo.net/ - you have to register to enter...
> http://www.puerh-teapot.com/index.jsp
> http://www.858tea.com/
> http://www.wwwart.com.tw/tea/


snip

> I don't think anything's absolute when the age of a Pu'er is determined
> through aural examination of the cake, unless it comes with more evidence
> (factory's inner flyer which includes the date - rare, or date of
> manufacture on the wrapper, etc) then can only one make a better estimate on
> the age. So I'll go with relative. It is possible for two cakes of the
> same manufacture date to age differently, the storage area, the handling of
> the cake, etc, will contribute to its ageing process. On the other hand, an
> old chinese tea saying goes that Pu'er is a social cake, meaning that for
> the cake to mature nicely, it has to be kept with other Pu'ers, so they can
> all age gracefully. How does that come about I have the faintest idea, I
> suppose there must be some symbiotic relationship somewhere.


The reason undoubtedly is that a merchant, when selling you a really
expensive Pu-erh cake, can convince you to buy another as a companion for
the first. (So you would go with the relative theory too. It makes sense.)

Michael

  #32 (permalink)   Report Post  
crymad
 
Posts: n/a
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samarkand wrote:
>
> I hope you meant Chinese rice wine and not Chinese rice?


That too. Might as well add rice vinegar to the list, as long as we're
at it.

> Soy sauce doesn't
> stink heaven high, fish sauce does the job better. Soy sauce stinks
> terribly while fermenting, but the end product can make the food taste
> better. I'm not sure how many types of soy sauce Japanese have in their
> cuisine, I'm always baffled by the soy sauce for the sushi and the tempura
> and many others, but in Chinese cuisine, we have more than 4 types, and some
> soy sauce can be sweet instead of salty, so I wonder to which soy sauce the
> self-respecting Japanese considers stinky?


Light, dark, mushroom -- you name it. Mind you, these prejudices don't
reflect my own opinions. I'm merely portraying those of my Japanese
friends.

What exactly do you find so baffling about soy sauce for sushi? As for
tempura, soy makes up only one component of the standard dipping sauce.
Bonito/katsuo stock forms the base.

--crymad

>
> Samar
>
> "crymad" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > cc wrote:
> > >
> > > "crymad" > wrote in message
> > >
> > > > I'd be interested to learn Kuri's impressions of Puerh drinking in
> > > > Japan. Not because I place greater faith in the good taste of the
> > > > Japanese when it comes to tea, but simply because I think non-Asians

> are
> > > > overly respectful and hesitant to voice criticism for fear of

> insulting
> > > > the mysterious East's rich cultural heritage.
> > >
> > > And you think you'll find many Japanese to voice criticism on
> > > holy-saint-Chinese-tea ? That's not their style.

> >
> > Oh, you give them too much credit. Any self-respecting Japanese knows
> > Chinese rice and soy sauce stinks to high heaven. Why should tea get
> > special treatment?
> >

  #33 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dog Ma 1
 
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samarkand wrote:
> I don't think anything's absolute when the age of a Pu'er is determined
> through aural examination of the cake


Wow - I once did a seminar on "listening" to Japanese incense, but never
encountered this concept of listening to tea. Nice synaethesia. Perhaps it
complements on the stuff we read about qualifying Yixing pots according to
their tone.

-DM


  #34 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Plant
 
Posts: n/a
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Dog Ma /6/04
reply w/o spam

> samarkand wrote:
>> I don't think anything's absolute when the age of a Pu'er is determined
>> through aural examination of the cake

>
> Wow - I once did a seminar on "listening" to Japanese incense, but never
> encountered this concept of listening to tea. Nice synaethesia. Perhaps it
> complements on the stuff we read about qualifying Yixing pots according to
> their tone.
>
> -DM


Yesterday, I drank a tea that spoke to me.

  #35 (permalink)   Report Post  
samarkand
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Is mushroom an ingredient for soy sauce?

I'm baffled because I get the normal soy sauce for sushi, then the soy
mixture for the tempura, and there's the soy mixture they laddle over
tempura don, which is sweeter, and there's one Japanese meal I had in Sendai
where the meals are served in small dishes, each with an accompanying soy
sauce mixture for each dish. I thought they were all the same, though the
proprietor said it's not.

Chinese rice is stinky? That's interesting.


"crymad" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> samarkand wrote:
> >
> > I hope you meant Chinese rice wine and not Chinese rice?

>
> That too. Might as well add rice vinegar to the list, as long as we're
> at it.
>
> > Soy sauce doesn't
> > stink heaven high, fish sauce does the job better. Soy sauce stinks
> > terribly while fermenting, but the end product can make the food taste
> > better. I'm not sure how many types of soy sauce Japanese have in their
> > cuisine, I'm always baffled by the soy sauce for the sushi and the

tempura
> > and many others, but in Chinese cuisine, we have more than 4 types, and

some
> > soy sauce can be sweet instead of salty, so I wonder to which soy sauce

the
> > self-respecting Japanese considers stinky?

>
> Light, dark, mushroom -- you name it. Mind you, these prejudices don't
> reflect my own opinions. I'm merely portraying those of my Japanese
> friends.
>
> What exactly do you find so baffling about soy sauce for sushi? As for
> tempura, soy makes up only one component of the standard dipping sauce.
> Bonito/katsuo stock forms the base.
>
> --crymad
>
> >
> > Samar
> >
> > "crymad" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > >
> > > cc wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "crymad" > wrote in message
> > > >
> > > > > I'd be interested to learn Kuri's impressions of Puerh drinking in
> > > > > Japan. Not because I place greater faith in the good taste of the
> > > > > Japanese when it comes to tea, but simply because I think

non-Asians
> > are
> > > > > overly respectful and hesitant to voice criticism for fear of

> > insulting
> > > > > the mysterious East's rich cultural heritage.
> > > >
> > > > And you think you'll find many Japanese to voice criticism on
> > > > holy-saint-Chinese-tea ? That's not their style.
> > >
> > > Oh, you give them too much credit. Any self-respecting Japanese knows
> > > Chinese rice and soy sauce stinks to high heaven. Why should tea get
> > > special treatment?
> > >





  #36 (permalink)   Report Post  
crymad
 
Posts: n/a
Default



samarkand wrote:
>
> Is mushroom an ingredient for soy sauce?


Straw mushrooms, as a flavoring. Pearl River Bridge makes a well known
mushroom soy sauce.

>
> I'm baffled because I get the normal soy sauce for sushi, then the soy
> mixture for the tempura, and there's the soy mixture they laddle over
> tempura don, which is sweeter, and there's one Japanese meal I had in Sendai
> where the meals are served in small dishes, each with an accompanying soy
> sauce mixture for each dish. I thought they were all the same, though the
> proprietor said it's not.


Outside of raw fish and sushi, plain soy sauce is rarely served
alongside Japanese dishes. I infer from your comments in the previous
post that you are Chinese. If so, what are your thoughts on raw
seafood?

> Chinese rice is stinky? That's interesting.


Long grain rice in particular. Japanese simply can't abide it.

--crymad



>
> "crymad" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > samarkand wrote:
> > >
> > > I hope you meant Chinese rice wine and not Chinese rice?

> >
> > That too. Might as well add rice vinegar to the list, as long as we're
> > at it.
> >
> > > Soy sauce doesn't
> > > stink heaven high, fish sauce does the job better. Soy sauce stinks
> > > terribly while fermenting, but the end product can make the food taste
> > > better. I'm not sure how many types of soy sauce Japanese have in their
> > > cuisine, I'm always baffled by the soy sauce for the sushi and the

> tempura
> > > and many others, but in Chinese cuisine, we have more than 4 types, and

> some
> > > soy sauce can be sweet instead of salty, so I wonder to which soy sauce

> the
> > > self-respecting Japanese considers stinky?

> >
> > Light, dark, mushroom -- you name it. Mind you, these prejudices don't
> > reflect my own opinions. I'm merely portraying those of my Japanese
> > friends.
> >
> > What exactly do you find so baffling about soy sauce for sushi? As for
> > tempura, soy makes up only one component of the standard dipping sauce.
> > Bonito/katsuo stock forms the base.
> >
> > --crymad
> >
> > >
> > > Samar
> > >
> > > "crymad" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > cc wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > "crymad" > wrote in message
> > > > >
> > > > > > I'd be interested to learn Kuri's impressions of Puerh drinking in
> > > > > > Japan. Not because I place greater faith in the good taste of the
> > > > > > Japanese when it comes to tea, but simply because I think

> non-Asians
> > > are
> > > > > > overly respectful and hesitant to voice criticism for fear of
> > > insulting
> > > > > > the mysterious East's rich cultural heritage.
> > > > >
> > > > > And you think you'll find many Japanese to voice criticism on
> > > > > holy-saint-Chinese-tea ? That's not their style.
> > > >
> > > > Oh, you give them too much credit. Any self-respecting Japanese knows
> > > > Chinese rice and soy sauce stinks to high heaven. Why should tea get
> > > > special treatment?
> > > >

  #37 (permalink)   Report Post  
samarkand
 
Posts: n/a
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"crymad" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Outside of raw fish and sushi, plain soy sauce is rarely served
> alongside Japanese dishes. I infer from your comments in the previous
> post that you are Chinese. If so, what are your thoughts on raw
> seafood?
>

Love it, and I like my dip to be a thick paste made with little soy sauce
and lots of wasabi - I think the Japanese prefer it to be little wasabi and
lots of soy sauce?


  #38 (permalink)   Report Post  
crymad
 
Posts: n/a
Default



samarkand wrote:
>
> "crymad" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Outside of raw fish and sushi, plain soy sauce is rarely served
> > alongside Japanese dishes. I infer from your comments in the previous
> > post that you are Chinese. If so, what are your thoughts on raw
> > seafood?
> >

> Love it, and I like my dip to be a thick paste made with little soy sauce
> and lots of wasabi - I think the Japanese prefer it to be little wasabi and
> lots of soy sauce?


Generally. But applying excessive amounts of either is considered to be
bad form. Though many Japanese are guilty of the practice, dredging raw
fish or sushi in this side sauce overwhelms the delicacy of the food
itself.

To bring this back to tea, and Puerh in particular, I asserted some time
back that the Chinese appreciation of Puerh is in keeping with what I
called their "fondness for foods from the deadside". Here's what I
wrote:

>Examples of the Chinese fondness for foods from the deadside abound:
>
>Dried shiitake mushrooms favored over fresh
>Dried citrus peel favored over fresh
>Preserved duck eggs
>Fermented Dou-Fu Ru tofu, which keeps indefinitely
>Preserved vegetables which require no refrigeration
>Dried seafoods of all sorts, while raw fish/oysters have little appeal
>
>This last one is perhaps the most telling when it comes to differences
>in Chinese and Japanese palates. Sea slugs -- sometimes called sea
>cucumbers -- are enjoyed by both Chinese and Japanese. The Chinese dry
>them as hard as a rock, soak them for several days, boil them in
>multiple changes of water, clean them, and then finally incorporate
>these thoroughly lifeless remains in dishes by further cooking. The
>Japanese eat them raw and quivering.


I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.

--crymad
  #39 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Plant
 
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Hey guys, please don't hit me. My Japanese friends of years ago told me that
Sushi is better in the United States than in Japan because the fish is
fresher here. This struck me as odd, but I've never been to Japan, so how am
I to know. Think there might be truth in it?

Drinking SRT 2002 Silver Bud Beencha, which shows great promise for the
future, but right now, brewed heavy, is like drinking a cigar, while brewed
light, is quite gentle and vegital. Listening to Stephan Volpe's Music for
Any Instruments, which is likewise an acquired taste perhaps.

Michael

10/7/04

>
>
> samarkand wrote:
>>
>> Is mushroom an ingredient for soy sauce?

>
> Straw mushrooms, as a flavoring. Pearl River Bridge makes a well known
> mushroom soy sauce.
>
>>
>> I'm baffled because I get the normal soy sauce for sushi, then the soy
>> mixture for the tempura, and there's the soy mixture they laddle over
>> tempura don, which is sweeter, and there's one Japanese meal I had in Sendai
>> where the meals are served in small dishes, each with an accompanying soy
>> sauce mixture for each dish. I thought they were all the same, though the
>> proprietor said it's not.

>
> Outside of raw fish and sushi, plain soy sauce is rarely served
> alongside Japanese dishes. I infer from your comments in the previous
> post that you are Chinese. If so, what are your thoughts on raw
> seafood?
>
>> Chinese rice is stinky? That's interesting.

>
> Long grain rice in particular. Japanese simply can't abide it.
>
> --crymad
>
>
>
>>
>> "crymad" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>>
>>> samarkand wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I hope you meant Chinese rice wine and not Chinese rice?
>>>
>>> That too. Might as well add rice vinegar to the list, as long as we're
>>> at it.
>>>
>>>> Soy sauce doesn't
>>>> stink heaven high, fish sauce does the job better. Soy sauce stinks
>>>> terribly while fermenting, but the end product can make the food taste
>>>> better. I'm not sure how many types of soy sauce Japanese have in their
>>>> cuisine, I'm always baffled by the soy sauce for the sushi and the

>> tempura
>>>> and many others, but in Chinese cuisine, we have more than 4 types, and

>> some
>>>> soy sauce can be sweet instead of salty, so I wonder to which soy sauce

>> the
>>>> self-respecting Japanese considers stinky?
>>>
>>> Light, dark, mushroom -- you name it. Mind you, these prejudices don't
>>> reflect my own opinions. I'm merely portraying those of my Japanese
>>> friends.
>>>
>>> What exactly do you find so baffling about soy sauce for sushi? As for
>>> tempura, soy makes up only one component of the standard dipping sauce.
>>> Bonito/katsuo stock forms the base.
>>>
>>> --crymad
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Samar
>>>>
>>>> "crymad" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> cc wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "crymad" > wrote in message
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'd be interested to learn Kuri's impressions of Puerh drinking in
>>>>>>> Japan. Not because I place greater faith in the good taste of the
>>>>>>> Japanese when it comes to tea, but simply because I think

>> non-Asians
>>>> are
>>>>>>> overly respectful and hesitant to voice criticism for fear of
>>>> insulting
>>>>>>> the mysterious East's rich cultural heritage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And you think you'll find many Japanese to voice criticism on
>>>>>> holy-saint-Chinese-tea ? That's not their style.
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, you give them too much credit. Any self-respecting Japanese knows
>>>>> Chinese rice and soy sauce stinks to high heaven. Why should tea get
>>>>> special treatment?
>>>>>


  #40 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dog Ma 1
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Michael Plant wrote:
> Hey guys, please don't hit me. My Japanese friends of years ago told me

that
> Sushi is better in the United States than in Japan because the fish is
> fresher here. This struck me as odd, but I've never been to Japan, so how

am
> I to know. Think there might be truth in it?


As Kuri says, perhaps in times past. I've eaten several times my body weight
in sushi in Japan, and much more in the US. I can remember the one time I
had sushi in America (Ike-no-Hana, somewhere around San Jose) that was in
the same league as the better Japanese offerings. And the best I had over
there (Nishimoto in Osaka, and a few places around the Tsukiji fish market)
was in a completely different league. There is mediocre sushi in the Japan,
as at the bars where it floats by on little boats and ages un-gracefully,
but not much.

Ironically, most of the main item - bluefin tuna - comes from Boston. We
can't even buy real chutoro and o-toro here; it all goes to Japan.
Imperialists stripping the wreck of this once-mighty fish-eating nation. And
half the catch is packed by Moonies, but that's another story.

-DM


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