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Tea (rec.drink.tea) Discussion relating to tea, the world's second most consumed beverage (after water), made by infusing or boiling the leaves of the tea plant (C. sinensis or close relatives) in water. |
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Dog Ma 1 wrote:
> Michael Plant wrote: > >>Hey guys, please don't hit me. My Japanese friends of years ago told me > > that > >>Sushi is better in the United States than in Japan because the fish is >>fresher here. This struck me as odd, but I've never been to Japan, so how > > am > >>I to know. Think there might be truth in it? > > > As Kuri says, perhaps in times past. I've eaten several times my body weight > in sushi in Japan, and much more in the US. I can remember the one time I > had sushi in America (Ike-no-Hana, somewhere around San Jose) that was in > the same league as the better Japanese offerings. And the best I had over > there (Nishimoto in Osaka, and a few places around the Tsukiji fish market) > was in a completely different league. There is mediocre sushi in the Japan, > as at the bars where it floats by on little boats and ages un-gracefully, > but not much. > > Ironically, most of the main item - bluefin tuna - comes from Boston. We > can't even buy real chutoro and o-toro here; it all goes to Japan. > Imperialists stripping the wreck of this once-mighty fish-eating nation. And > half the catch is packed by Moonies, but that's another story. > > -DM > > I have to inject that seafood on the west coast is typically better than east coast. A japanese friend told me Sea Urchin was much better in America in terms of quality of fish. I think it is difficult to compare sushii without getting variables crossed. Certainly in Japan it is easier to find someone who can expertly prepare sushi, but I've heard also that fresher fish is available on the West coast than in Japan. Steve |
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cc wrote: > > "Michael Plant" > wrote in message > > > Hey guys, please don't hit me. My Japanese friends of years ago told me > that > > Sushi is better in the United States than in Japan because the fish is > > fresher here. This struck me as odd, but I've never been to Japan, so how > am > > I to know. Think there might be truth in it? > > Years ago, that was probably true. > > I have been to the US and didn't see any fresh fish for sale in most > neighbourhoods. But well, in New-York, you live differently. You'll have to excuse Michael. Living in the Center of the Universe can cloud your vision. No doubt, good Japanese food can be found in NY. > > Now, in Japanese cities the choice of fresh and very fish is huge. Maybe > that's too much as we're wasting and contributing to the global ecological > disaster. > I only miss the urchins, oysters, real crabs and a few others seafood (here, > most times, they *unshell* oysters and urchins before shipping, that's > awful). My only real longings living in Japan were oysters and line-caught river salmon. Other than that, Japan is a fish paradise. It's sanma season now, isn't it, Kuri? I always looked forward to autumn and grilling skewered sanma over hardwood charcoal outside. --crymad |
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Steve Hay wrote: > > I have to inject that seafood on the west coast is typically better than > east coast. A japanese friend told me Sea Urchin was much better in > America in terms of quality of fish. I think it is difficult to compare > sushii without getting variables crossed. Certainly in Japan it is > easier to find someone who can expertly prepare sushi, but I've heard > also that fresher fish is available on the West coast than in Japan. Perhaps San Francisco has a good bounty. But I live in Portland and have lived in Seattle, and truly fine fish so common all over Japan is difficult to find in both cities. Then again, I'm partial to whole, small fishes, not the ubiquitous steaks of halibut or swordfish or tuna. --crymad |
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> > > Outside of raw fish and sushi, plain soy sauce is rarely served
> > > alongside Japanese dishes. I infer from your comments in the previous > > > post that you are Chinese. If so, what are your thoughts on raw > > > seafood? > > > > > Love it, and I like my dip to be a thick paste made with little soy sauce > > and lots of wasabi - I think the Japanese prefer it to be little wasabi and > > lots of soy sauce? > > Generally. But applying excessive amounts of either is considered to be > bad form. Though many Japanese are guilty of the practice, dredging raw > fish or sushi in this side sauce overwhelms the delicacy of the food > itself. > Very true. I always like wasabi, that's the reason I make my side sauce thick with it, but my dip is always on the corner of the meat, never fully soaking the food with the sauce - it's quite potent even with the little touch, and I like it that way. > To bring this back to tea, and Puerh in particular, I asserted some time > back that the Chinese appreciation of Puerh is in keeping with what I > called their "fondness for foods from the deadside". Here's what I > wrote: > > >Examples of the Chinese fondness for foods from the deadside abound: > > > >Dried shiitake mushrooms favored over fresh > >Dried citrus peel favored over fresh > >Preserved duck eggs > >Fermented Dou-Fu Ru tofu, which keeps indefinitely > >Preserved vegetables which require no refrigeration > >Dried seafoods of all sorts, while raw fish/oysters have little appeal > > > >This last one is perhaps the most telling when it comes to differences > >in Chinese and Japanese palates. Sea slugs -- sometimes called sea > >cucumbers -- are enjoyed by both Chinese and Japanese. The Chinese dry > >them as hard as a rock, soak them for several days, boil them in > >multiple changes of water, clean them, and then finally incorporate > >these thoroughly lifeless remains in dishes by further cooking. The > >Japanese eat them raw and quivering. > > I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this. > Every culture has its preference for food from the deadside abound, I don't think Chinese have a larger repertoire of it. Similarly, I don't think Chinese nowadays are particularly fond of such food. In the past, these food was borne out of necessity, which in turn may have become delicacies in certain cases (such as the sea cucumber); but these days the Chinese economy is getting more affluent and fresh food is easily available and within affordable expenditure, so these preserved food is taking a backseat, and often appear during the wintry months on festive ocassions - just for old time's sake. In your example of the sea cucumber, I presume Japanese's preference on eating it raw is to savour its freshness? I've yet to eat that though. Chinese have a wider use for dried sea cucumber, with an interesting history. Using sea cucumber in Chinese cuisine is a recent development, during the Qing dynasty. It began, of all places, in Sichuan, where fish merchants carried it along with the other sea produce from the coasts, via Shangdong. Needless to say over such long journeys these items were first dried before embarking on its long journey inland. The Sichuan people used it as a source of protein in the long wintry months and as medicine in food to treat pre-mature ejeculations, impotency, and other 'man' problems; this practice spread later west and south wards. Till today, one doesn't see dried sea cucumber in supermarkets, but mostly available in medicinal halls. Being dried in the past means the medicinal halls could sell it all year round, instead of making a seasonal produce. Likewise for dried citrus peel, they are peeled and sliced for medicinal use in food, to treat high blood pressure, dry coughs, insomnia. Chinese believe that the citrus peel of citrus tangerina (available only in season in the past) is a great nourishment to the lungs and spleen, hence the old saying that whenever the citrus is in seasn, the doctors are busy in drying the peels. Peels that are fresh are too sharp, for people with phlegmy coughs this might bring on more phlegm. When it is dried, its properties are not so harsh, and there's a tangy sweetness to it which makes it excellent to be included in food to enhance the flavours, while benefitting the body. I'm not saying that Chinese have every use for dried stuff from the 'deadside' as a medicine, there are also a lot of which are based in history and necessity, from a race of people who have witnessed great calamities both man-made and natural for them to make greater use of the food resource that they have at hand. At least, the deadside preference of Chinese do not include a large variety of processed food. Japanese also have a repertoire of deadside food, we are not that different after all: Natto (I love, my friends hate it), aonori, umeboshi, miso, konbu, hijiki, bonito, pickled baby octopus, pickled cuttlefish, preserved roes, etc. Yummy! Samar |
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"crymad" > wrote in message ... > > > cc wrote: > > > > "Michael Plant" > wrote in message > > > > > Hey guys, please don't hit me. My Japanese friends of years ago told me > > that > > > Sushi is better in the United States than in Japan because the fish is > > > fresher here. This struck me as odd, but I've never been to Japan, so how > > am > > > I to know. Think there might be truth in it? > > > > Years ago, that was probably true. > > > > I have been to the US and didn't see any fresh fish for sale in most > > neighbourhoods. But well, in New-York, you live differently. > > You'll have to excuse Michael. Living in the Center of the Universe can > cloud your vision. No doubt, good Japanese food can be found in NY. > Splendid! Any recommendation of a good Japanese restaurant? I only know of 'East' which is on 54th on 8th (I think...)in Manhattan...and it is not as good as the ones I've had in San Francsico. > > > > Now, in Japanese cities the choice of fresh and very fish is huge. Maybe > > that's too much as we're wasting and contributing to the global ecological > > disaster. > > I only miss the urchins, oysters, real crabs and a few others seafood (here, > > most times, they *unshell* oysters and urchins before shipping, that's > > awful). > > My only real longings living in Japan were oysters and line-caught river > salmon. Other than that, Japan is a fish paradise. It's sanma season > now, isn't it, Kuri? I always looked forward to autumn and grilling > skewered sanma over hardwood charcoal outside. > When is the 'pregnant fish' season? I like that, it's a string of small fish skewered on a piece of stick with lots of roe inside. I don't even know its name in Japanese... |
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[much snippage]
samarkand wrote: > > Every culture has its preference for food from the deadside abound, I don't > think Chinese have a larger repertoire of it. Similarly, I don't think > Chinese nowadays are particularly fond of such food. In the past, these > food was borne out of necessity, which in turn may have become delicacies in > certain cases (such as the sea cucumber); but these days the Chinese economy > is getting more affluent and fresh food is easily available and within > affordable expenditure, so these preserved food is taking a backseat, and > often appear during the wintry months on festive ocassions - just for old > time's sake. Is preserved food in Chinese cuisine really just a holdover from more rugged times? How do you explain the near absence of fresh black mushrooms (shiitake) in classic Chinese dishes when dried ones are employed extensively? > Likewise for dried citrus peel, they are peeled and sliced for medicinal use > in food, to treat high blood pressure, dry coughs, insomnia. Yes, but dried tangerine peel is by no means limited to medicinal uses in China. It is a staple in Sichuan and Fujian provinces as a seasoning. > > I'm not saying that Chinese have every use for dried stuff from the > 'deadside' as a medicine, there are also a lot of which are based in history > and necessity, from a race of people who have witnessed great calamities > both man-made and natural for them to make greater use of the food resource > that they have at hand. At least, the deadside preference of Chinese do not > include a large variety of processed food. And where does Puerh fit in this discussion? Is this another holdover from China's less affluent times? More interestingly, is Puerh viewed as an anachronism by younger, contemporary Chinese? > Japanese also have a repertoire of deadside food, we are not that different > after all: Natto (I love, my friends hate it), Natto was brought up as a counterexample the first time this topic came up. Natto is not an old food. From fresh beans to sticky natto takes only 24 hours, and it is highly perishable, always stored under refrigeration. > aonori, umeboshi, miso, > konbu, hijiki, bonito, pickled baby octopus, pickled cuttlefish, preserved > roes, etc. Yummy! The dried seaweeds you mention are also eaten in their fresh state, however. Pickled octopus/squid are not truly pickled or preserved -- they are stored refrigerated and easily subject to spoilage. Umeboshi is a better example. But bonito (katuso) is better still, even more so seeing as this dried fish flesh forms the foundation for Japanese cuisine. --crymad |
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[much snippage]
samarkand wrote: > > Every culture has its preference for food from the deadside abound, I don't > think Chinese have a larger repertoire of it. Similarly, I don't think > Chinese nowadays are particularly fond of such food. In the past, these > food was borne out of necessity, which in turn may have become delicacies in > certain cases (such as the sea cucumber); but these days the Chinese economy > is getting more affluent and fresh food is easily available and within > affordable expenditure, so these preserved food is taking a backseat, and > often appear during the wintry months on festive ocassions - just for old > time's sake. Is preserved food in Chinese cuisine really just a holdover from more rugged times? How do you explain the near absence of fresh black mushrooms (shiitake) in classic Chinese dishes when dried ones are employed extensively? > Likewise for dried citrus peel, they are peeled and sliced for medicinal use > in food, to treat high blood pressure, dry coughs, insomnia. Yes, but dried tangerine peel is by no means limited to medicinal uses in China. It is a staple in Sichuan and Fujian provinces as a seasoning. > > I'm not saying that Chinese have every use for dried stuff from the > 'deadside' as a medicine, there are also a lot of which are based in history > and necessity, from a race of people who have witnessed great calamities > both man-made and natural for them to make greater use of the food resource > that they have at hand. At least, the deadside preference of Chinese do not > include a large variety of processed food. And where does Puerh fit in this discussion? Is this another holdover from China's less affluent times? More interestingly, is Puerh viewed as an anachronism by younger, contemporary Chinese? > Japanese also have a repertoire of deadside food, we are not that different > after all: Natto (I love, my friends hate it), Natto was brought up as a counterexample the first time this topic came up. Natto is not an old food. From fresh beans to sticky natto takes only 24 hours, and it is highly perishable, always stored under refrigeration. > aonori, umeboshi, miso, > konbu, hijiki, bonito, pickled baby octopus, pickled cuttlefish, preserved > roes, etc. Yummy! The dried seaweeds you mention are also eaten in their fresh state, however. Pickled octopus/squid are not truly pickled or preserved -- they are stored refrigerated and easily subject to spoilage. Umeboshi is a better example. But bonito (katuso) is better still, even more so seeing as this dried fish flesh forms the foundation for Japanese cuisine. --crymad |
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crymad wrote:
> > Steve Hay wrote: > >>I have to inject that seafood on the west coast is typically better than >>east coast. A japanese friend told me Sea Urchin was much better in >>America in terms of quality of fish. I think it is difficult to compare >>sushii without getting variables crossed. Certainly in Japan it is >>easier to find someone who can expertly prepare sushi, but I've heard >>also that fresher fish is available on the West coast than in Japan. > > > Perhaps San Francisco has a good bounty. But I live in Portland and > have lived in Seattle, and truly fine fish so common all over Japan is > difficult to find in both cities. Then again, I'm partial to whole, > small fishes, not the ubiquitous steaks of halibut or swordfish or tuna. > > --crymad Well, I live near SF, CA and I haven't seen anything like it (the Greater Bay Area) for Sushi in my travels to other states. Now my travels have been all over but I must admit I didn't really indulge deeply in sushi when on such journeys, so with a pinch of salt over the shoulder I continue. Partly there was the DOT COM bubble bursting which put a great crimp on all kinds of entertainment economy, including eating out and singles/ bachelor lifestyles; sushi restaurants included. Things are just now seeming to turn around, around here, but in a way, while hard on folks, it had the effect of shaking out the industry and good places tend to survive. (But not always.) _That_ said I wanted to pass along a link to a place I found just surfing around. <disclaimer> I haven't tried them yet, nor do I have any ties to them, but here ya go: <http://www.catalinaop.com> They mention being able to mail order little fishies to your doorstep, including Uni, a favorite of mine if fresh and high quality. ANYwho, I do know that the West Coast; SF & perhaps LA, enjoys a large Asian (Japanese) contingent which, who along with those yuppies [and post yuppies], have been driving the market to encourage high quality and wide ranging spectrum of sushi offerings. <pause to drawn breath> Enjoy, TBerk |
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crymad wrote:
> > Steve Hay wrote: > >>I have to inject that seafood on the west coast is typically better than >>east coast. A japanese friend told me Sea Urchin was much better in >>America in terms of quality of fish. I think it is difficult to compare >>sushii without getting variables crossed. Certainly in Japan it is >>easier to find someone who can expertly prepare sushi, but I've heard >>also that fresher fish is available on the West coast than in Japan. > > > Perhaps San Francisco has a good bounty. But I live in Portland and > have lived in Seattle, and truly fine fish so common all over Japan is > difficult to find in both cities. Then again, I'm partial to whole, > small fishes, not the ubiquitous steaks of halibut or swordfish or tuna. > > --crymad Well, I live near SF, CA and I haven't seen anything like it (the Greater Bay Area) for Sushi in my travels to other states. Now my travels have been all over but I must admit I didn't really indulge deeply in sushi when on such journeys, so with a pinch of salt over the shoulder I continue. Partly there was the DOT COM bubble bursting which put a great crimp on all kinds of entertainment economy, including eating out and singles/ bachelor lifestyles; sushi restaurants included. Things are just now seeming to turn around, around here, but in a way, while hard on folks, it had the effect of shaking out the industry and good places tend to survive. (But not always.) _That_ said I wanted to pass along a link to a place I found just surfing around. <disclaimer> I haven't tried them yet, nor do I have any ties to them, but here ya go: <http://www.catalinaop.com> They mention being able to mail order little fishies to your doorstep, including Uni, a favorite of mine if fresh and high quality. ANYwho, I do know that the West Coast; SF & perhaps LA, enjoys a large Asian (Japanese) contingent which, who along with those yuppies [and post yuppies], have been driving the market to encourage high quality and wide ranging spectrum of sushi offerings. <pause to drawn breath> Enjoy, TBerk |
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[not much snippage]
"crymad" > wrote in message ... > [much snippage] > > samarkand wrote: > > > > Every culture has its preference for food from the deadside abound, I don't > > think Chinese have a larger repertoire of it. Similarly, I don't think > > Chinese nowadays are particularly fond of such food. In the past, these > > food was borne out of necessity, which in turn may have become delicacies in > > certain cases (such as the sea cucumber); but these days the Chinese economy > > is getting more affluent and fresh food is easily available and within > > affordable expenditure, so these preserved food is taking a backseat, and > > often appear during the wintry months on festive ocassions - just for old > > time's sake. > > Is preserved food in Chinese cuisine really just a holdover from more > rugged times? How do you explain the near absence of fresh black > mushrooms (shiitake) in classic Chinese dishes when dried ones are > employed extensively? > If you take a look Chinese cuisine in the recent decades, fresh mushrooms are used, especially the straw mushrooms you mentioned. Dried mushrooms become abundant in China during the wintry months, but farther south in Hainan island, Hongkong, Taiwan, Singapore and Malaysia, fresh shiitake mushrooms are available all year round and frequently used in cooking instead of the dried version. Dried mushrooms are still used in certain dishes however, because it imparts a stronger flavour, and in my opinion, imparts a nicer flavour especially when used mixed with minced pork and steamed. Fresh shiitake doesn't give that 'punch'. I believe out of necessaity during rugged times, it has evolved into a cuisine preference. Another example is steamed fish with dried shiitake. It tastes much better than when I use the fresh variety. What are the classic Chinese dishes that you've eaten using dried shiitake recently? And where? Food and location can sometimes reveal interesting cultural roots... > > Likewise for dried citrus peel, they are peeled and sliced for medicinal use > > in food, to treat high blood pressure, dry coughs, insomnia. > > Yes, but dried tangerine peel is by no means limited to medicinal uses > in China. It is a staple in Sichuan and Fujian provinces as a > seasoning. > Is it used as a staple? You must show me where you get this info. I can't tell for sure it is a staple seasoning in Sichuan, but in Fujian it doesn't appear so, perhaps you meant Guangzhou? In Chinese traditional medicine, the line between food and medicine can be thinly drawn. Often in our cuisine, the seasoning and ingredients can be both food and medicine. While citrus peel is being used in food, it acts both as a seasoning while it strengthens the spleen and lowers blood cholestrol. Returning to the sea cucumber, to the Japanese it is a delicacy to be eaten fresh, but to the Chinese, it is enjoyed as a food, but also to help pre-mature ejeculation, in a sense, it is both food and medicine. > > > > I'm not saying that Chinese have every use for dried stuff from the > > 'deadside' as a medicine, there are also a lot of which are based in history > > and necessity, from a race of people who have witnessed great calamities > > both man-made and natural for them to make greater use of the food resource > > that they have at hand. At least, the deadside preference of Chinese do not > > include a large variety of processed food. > > And where does Puerh fit in this discussion? Is this another holdover > from China's less affluent times? More interestingly, is Puerh viewed > as an anachronism by younger, contemporary Chinese? > Pu'er is completely a different story. You mentioned that we have a preference for the deadside, if tea is from the deadside, then Pu'er as viewed by you, is of the deadside, but I don't view it that way. From what I remember when I first read this group's posts on Pu'er, you seem to have a view that this is not tea, but tea tortured to its last spirit. I've always wanted to ask you where and how do you come to this opinion, but that thread was deleted and I couldn't find it. I remember also you disagreed with Mike Petro on some points of Pu'er as a tea, but I lost track with the multitude of threads, I only remember some discussions on cheeses and wines [?] in relation to Pu'er. Can you refresh me on that one? To answer your questions, is Pu'er another holdover from China's less affluent times? The answer is no. It has nothing to do with that portion of history, but I suspect your bad experiences with Pu'er may have everything to do with greedy Chinese trying to make quick bucks, turning out low quality teas...and is Pu'er viewed as an anachronism by younger, contemporary Chinese? I take it that you meant mainland Chinese, where half the young population of China knows more about Starbuck than Chinese teas in general? Then the answer is perhaps yes, but becuase tea in general is viewed as an anachronism and 'un-western', not just Pu'er. For the rest of the Chinese around the world, we have the Hongkongers and Taiwanese to thank, who took the humble Pu'er and turned it into black gold, leaving us like poor street urchins salivating at the window displays of expensive and out-of-reach pu'er cakes. Incidentally, the idea of pu'er as 'the older the better and good to keep till kingdom comes' is a recent import, post 1980s. Most Yunnan natives still favour freshly produced Pu'er, most of them keeping it for several years to allow the tea to wear off its greeness and sharpness. Many developments of tea-making in history came about from mishaps, and unintentional. I remember Ripon posted something about the history of red tea (Keemun? ) in China. I read it and found it incorrect, but it was deleted and I couldn't locate it to reply him. Samar |
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[not much snippage]
"crymad" > wrote in message ... > [much snippage] > > samarkand wrote: > > > > Every culture has its preference for food from the deadside abound, I don't > > think Chinese have a larger repertoire of it. Similarly, I don't think > > Chinese nowadays are particularly fond of such food. In the past, these > > food was borne out of necessity, which in turn may have become delicacies in > > certain cases (such as the sea cucumber); but these days the Chinese economy > > is getting more affluent and fresh food is easily available and within > > affordable expenditure, so these preserved food is taking a backseat, and > > often appear during the wintry months on festive ocassions - just for old > > time's sake. > > Is preserved food in Chinese cuisine really just a holdover from more > rugged times? How do you explain the near absence of fresh black > mushrooms (shiitake) in classic Chinese dishes when dried ones are > employed extensively? > If you take a look Chinese cuisine in the recent decades, fresh mushrooms are used, especially the straw mushrooms you mentioned. Dried mushrooms become abundant in China during the wintry months, but farther south in Hainan island, Hongkong, Taiwan, Singapore and Malaysia, fresh shiitake mushrooms are available all year round and frequently used in cooking instead of the dried version. Dried mushrooms are still used in certain dishes however, because it imparts a stronger flavour, and in my opinion, imparts a nicer flavour especially when used mixed with minced pork and steamed. Fresh shiitake doesn't give that 'punch'. I believe out of necessaity during rugged times, it has evolved into a cuisine preference. Another example is steamed fish with dried shiitake. It tastes much better than when I use the fresh variety. What are the classic Chinese dishes that you've eaten using dried shiitake recently? And where? Food and location can sometimes reveal interesting cultural roots... > > Likewise for dried citrus peel, they are peeled and sliced for medicinal use > > in food, to treat high blood pressure, dry coughs, insomnia. > > Yes, but dried tangerine peel is by no means limited to medicinal uses > in China. It is a staple in Sichuan and Fujian provinces as a > seasoning. > Is it used as a staple? You must show me where you get this info. I can't tell for sure it is a staple seasoning in Sichuan, but in Fujian it doesn't appear so, perhaps you meant Guangzhou? In Chinese traditional medicine, the line between food and medicine can be thinly drawn. Often in our cuisine, the seasoning and ingredients can be both food and medicine. While citrus peel is being used in food, it acts both as a seasoning while it strengthens the spleen and lowers blood cholestrol. Returning to the sea cucumber, to the Japanese it is a delicacy to be eaten fresh, but to the Chinese, it is enjoyed as a food, but also to help pre-mature ejeculation, in a sense, it is both food and medicine. > > > > I'm not saying that Chinese have every use for dried stuff from the > > 'deadside' as a medicine, there are also a lot of which are based in history > > and necessity, from a race of people who have witnessed great calamities > > both man-made and natural for them to make greater use of the food resource > > that they have at hand. At least, the deadside preference of Chinese do not > > include a large variety of processed food. > > And where does Puerh fit in this discussion? Is this another holdover > from China's less affluent times? More interestingly, is Puerh viewed > as an anachronism by younger, contemporary Chinese? > Pu'er is completely a different story. You mentioned that we have a preference for the deadside, if tea is from the deadside, then Pu'er as viewed by you, is of the deadside, but I don't view it that way. From what I remember when I first read this group's posts on Pu'er, you seem to have a view that this is not tea, but tea tortured to its last spirit. I've always wanted to ask you where and how do you come to this opinion, but that thread was deleted and I couldn't find it. I remember also you disagreed with Mike Petro on some points of Pu'er as a tea, but I lost track with the multitude of threads, I only remember some discussions on cheeses and wines [?] in relation to Pu'er. Can you refresh me on that one? To answer your questions, is Pu'er another holdover from China's less affluent times? The answer is no. It has nothing to do with that portion of history, but I suspect your bad experiences with Pu'er may have everything to do with greedy Chinese trying to make quick bucks, turning out low quality teas...and is Pu'er viewed as an anachronism by younger, contemporary Chinese? I take it that you meant mainland Chinese, where half the young population of China knows more about Starbuck than Chinese teas in general? Then the answer is perhaps yes, but becuase tea in general is viewed as an anachronism and 'un-western', not just Pu'er. For the rest of the Chinese around the world, we have the Hongkongers and Taiwanese to thank, who took the humble Pu'er and turned it into black gold, leaving us like poor street urchins salivating at the window displays of expensive and out-of-reach pu'er cakes. Incidentally, the idea of pu'er as 'the older the better and good to keep till kingdom comes' is a recent import, post 1980s. Most Yunnan natives still favour freshly produced Pu'er, most of them keeping it for several years to allow the tea to wear off its greeness and sharpness. Many developments of tea-making in history came about from mishaps, and unintentional. I remember Ripon posted something about the history of red tea (Keemun? ) in China. I read it and found it incorrect, but it was deleted and I couldn't locate it to reply him. Samar |
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"crymad" > wrote in message > My only real longings living in Japan were oysters and line-caught river > salmon. Other than that, Japan is a fish paradise. It's sanma season > now, isn't it, Kuri? By definition, it's their season. > I always looked forward to autumn and grilling > skewered sanma over hardwood charcoal outside. I had some tonight. I had to make them inside, skewered in the oven...but I've used a brasero to prepare new rice and matsutake. No leftovers, the plates and bowls are perfectly cleaned ! It's a good year for fruits in addition. Lots of excellent kakis, nashis (usually I find them tasteless, but not this year) and wonderful apples for an old style tart that perfectly matched a Taiwan oolong. My guest promised me to bring me some more from Taipei ! That's a good trade for me, tarts versus tea. Kuri |
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samarkand wrote: > > [not much snippage] > > "crymad" > wrote in message > ... > > [much snippage] > > > > Is preserved food in Chinese cuisine really just a holdover from more > > rugged times? How do you explain the near absence of fresh black > > mushrooms (shiitake) in classic Chinese dishes when dried ones are > > employed extensively? > > > If you take a look Chinese cuisine in the recent decades, fresh mushrooms > are used, especially the straw mushrooms you mentioned. Dried mushrooms > become abundant in China during the wintry months, but farther south in > Hainan island, Hongkong, Taiwan, Singapore and Malaysia, fresh shiitake > mushrooms are available all year round and frequently used in cooking > instead of the dried version. Singapore and Malaysia? I think we're veering a little off the map now. It bears mentioning, though, that while Korea and Japan are much farther north, fresh shiitake are commonly used in their fresh form. > Dried mushrooms are still used in certain > dishes however, because it imparts a stronger flavour, and in my opinion, > imparts a nicer flavour especially when used mixed with minced pork and > steamed. Fresh shiitake doesn't give that 'punch'. I believe out of > necessaity during rugged times, it has evolved into a cuisine preference. > Another example is steamed fish with dried shiitake. It tastes much better > than when I use the fresh variety. In my mind, this desire for "punchiness" is at the heart of the matter, really. Japanese cuisine emphasizes freshness and delicacy. And the ideal for tea follows suit. > What are the classic Chinese dishes that you've eaten using dried shiitake > recently? And where? Food and location can sometimes reveal interesting > cultural roots... In simple soups, Chinese style, here at home, in the US. Sometimes I'll add dried shiitake to MaPo Tofu. > > > > Yes, but dried tangerine peel is by no means limited to medicinal uses > > in China. It is a staple in Sichuan and Fujian provinces as a > > seasoning. > > > Is it used as a staple? You must show me where you get this info. I can't > tell for sure it is a staple seasoning in Sichuan, but in Fujian it doesn't > appear so, perhaps you meant Guangzhou? In Chinese traditional medicine, > the line between food and medicine can be thinly drawn. Often in our > cuisine, the seasoning and ingredients can be both food and medicine. While > citrus peel is being used in food, it acts both as a seasoning while it > strengthens the spleen and lowers blood cholestrol. Hmm...now I wonder about your cultural roots. What are they exactly? Because any Chinese should be familiar with dried tangerine peel. > > > > And where does Puerh fit in this discussion? Is this another holdover > > from China's less affluent times? More interestingly, is Puerh viewed > > as an anachronism by younger, contemporary Chinese? > > > Pu'er is completely a different story. You mentioned that we have a > preference for the deadside, if tea is from the deadside, then Pu'er as > viewed by you, is of the deadside, but I don't view it that way. From what > I remember when I first read this group's posts on Pu'er, you seem to have a > view that this is not tea, but tea tortured to its last spirit. "Tortured to its last spirit" -- I do like this. A very poetic way of putting it. > I've always > wanted to ask you where and how do you come to this opinion, but that thread > was deleted and I couldn't find it. > > I remember also you disagreed with Mike Petro on some points of Pu'er as a > tea, but I lost track with the multitude of threads, I only remember some > discussions on cheeses and wines [?] in relation to Pu'er. Can you refresh > me on that one? I believe the thread had the subject line, "Is Puerh Tea?" You should be able to locate it at Google groups. --crymad |
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"crymad" > wrote in message > Hmm...now I wonder about your cultural roots. What are they exactly? > Because any Chinese should be familiar with dried tangerine peel. Like any Japanese should get a stock of dried yuzu peel from Koya-san and use some daily in shichimi mix ? And in the US, I guess you are familiar with pemmican (sp ?) and if you didn't have any for breakfast, we can start doubting you're really posting from there. Really Crymad, I don't know where you're getting at. It is sure that the Japanese enjoy abundant supply of all sorts of fresh products, while most Chinese still can't afford them out of season and survive a part of (if not all) the year with dried/preserved goods. They just do what they can. I am not commenting "Chinese cuisine", because that's be like commenting "Mediterraneano-european cuisine", you'd have to do it region by region and even separate the different communities in one city. The Japanese have had most of their meals prepared from dried/preserved food during hundreds of years, fresh seasonal products were worshipped for they were exceptional, people only started to change their habit about 70 yrs ago. And they have not all forgotten the old style. The dried food stands at my local market still sells in quantity a variety of dried food as large as in most Chinese medicinal markets I've been to. Other stands have enough sorts of tsukemono to avoid you the boredom of eating twice the same in one year. I also love the choice of stock fish and shiokarai. Probably New Year's osechi-ryori is a good example of how they cooked before having fridges and, more important, before having roads and trains to deliver fish to every valley and vegetables to every seaside village. Maybe that was not your cup of tea, but now that the fascination for fresh takkyubin is wearing off, soshoku style ("simple meal" that inspired macrobiotic diet) is getting a revival, and it uses a lot of preserved/dried goods. Also the different fermented food,lactofermentation, etc, are getting increasingly popular (so maybe the taste for Puer cha is related to that). It is the Japanese contribution to the global "slow food" trend. I wouldn't get much interest for Japanese cooking if that was limited to cutting fresh ingredients and making a nice presentation. Later I'll post something about the history of Japanese tea-snacks as that's more related to this NG, and well "freshness" is certainly not their strength. Kuri |
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Hey Kuri,
You put it more aptly than I can! :") It's interesting to know a portion of Japanese cuisine history, am I correct to say that while Japanese stresses a lot on the freshness of the food, it also uses a lot of MSG in food preparation? Samar "cc" > wrote in message ... > > "crymad" > wrote in message > >> Hmm...now I wonder about your cultural roots. What are they exactly? >> Because any Chinese should be familiar with dried tangerine peel. > > Like any Japanese should get a stock of dried yuzu peel from Koya-san and > use some daily in shichimi mix ? And in the US, I guess you are familiar > with pemmican (sp ?) and if you didn't have any for breakfast, we can > start > doubting you're really posting from there. > > Really Crymad, I don't know where you're getting at. It is sure that the > Japanese enjoy abundant supply of all sorts of fresh products, while most > Chinese still can't afford them out of season and survive a part of (if > not > all) the year with dried/preserved goods. They just do what they can. I am > not commenting "Chinese cuisine", because that's be like commenting > "Mediterraneano-european cuisine", you'd have to do it region by region > and > even separate the different communities in one city. > The Japanese have had most of their meals prepared from dried/preserved > food > during hundreds of years, fresh seasonal products were worshipped for they > were exceptional, people only started to change their habit about 70 yrs > ago. And they have not all forgotten the old style. The dried food stands > at > my local market still sells in quantity a variety of dried food as large > as in most Chinese medicinal markets I've been to. Other stands have > enough > sorts of tsukemono to avoid you the boredom of eating twice the same in > one > year. I also love the choice of stock fish and shiokarai. > Probably New Year's osechi-ryori is a good example of how they cooked > before > having fridges and, more important, before having roads and trains to > deliver fish to every valley and vegetables to every seaside village. > Maybe > that was not your cup of tea, but now that the fascination for fresh > takkyubin is wearing off, soshoku style ("simple meal" that inspired > macrobiotic diet) is getting a revival, and it uses a lot of > preserved/dried > goods. Also the different fermented food,lactofermentation, etc, are > getting > increasingly popular (so maybe the taste for Puer cha is related to that). > It is the Japanese contribution to the global "slow food" trend. I > wouldn't > get much interest for Japanese cooking if that was limited to cutting > fresh > ingredients and making a nice presentation. > > Later I'll post something about the history of Japanese tea-snacks as > that's > more related to this NG, and well "freshness" is certainly not their > strength. > > Kuri > > > |
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"samarkand" > wrote in news:416bfd38$1
@news.starhub.net.sg: >> I believe the thread had the subject line, "Is Puerh Tea?" You should >> be able to locate it at Google groups. >> > I shall hunt for it then. But I doubt it's still around though. Perhaps this? http://tinyurl.com/5cg3u (which is) http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...A20E.7A37A75B% 40xprt.net&rnum=2&prev=/groups%3Fsafe%3Dimages%26as_ugroup% 3Drec.food.drink.tea%26as_usubject%3Dis%2520puerh% 2520tea%26lr%3D%26hl%3Den (I would have posted this link without a wrap but it's *so* long--the tinyurl will have to do.) -- fD |
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cc wrote: > > "crymad" > wrote in message > > > Hmm...now I wonder about your cultural roots. What are they exactly? > > Because any Chinese should be familiar with dried tangerine peel. > > Like any Japanese should get a stock of dried yuzu peel from Koya-san and > use some daily in shichimi mix ? And in the US, I guess you are familiar > with pemmican (sp ?) and if you didn't have any for breakfast, we can start > doubting you're really posting from there. Samarkand also seemed puzzled with the mushroom soy reference a few posts above. Samarkand may in fact be Chinese, but just doesn't cook much. > Really Crymad, I don't know where you're getting at. Well, this thread has kind of drifted off a bit. Originally, it was about Puerh and how its preserved, aged flavor reminds me of so many other Chinese foodstuffs. --crymad |
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cc wrote: > > "crymad" > wrote in message > > > Hmm...now I wonder about your cultural roots. What are they exactly? > > Because any Chinese should be familiar with dried tangerine peel. > > Like any Japanese should get a stock of dried yuzu peel from Koya-san and > use some daily in shichimi mix ? And in the US, I guess you are familiar > with pemmican (sp ?) and if you didn't have any for breakfast, we can start > doubting you're really posting from there. Samarkand also seemed puzzled with the mushroom soy reference a few posts above. Samarkand may in fact be Chinese, but just doesn't cook much. > Really Crymad, I don't know where you're getting at. Well, this thread has kind of drifted off a bit. Originally, it was about Puerh and how its preserved, aged flavor reminds me of so many other Chinese foodstuffs. --crymad |
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samarkand wrote: > > "crymad" > wrote in message > ... [much snipping again] > > In simple soups, Chinese style, here at home, in the US. Sometimes I'll > > add dried shiitake to MaPo Tofu. > > > Simple soups? Chinese soups are not simple Not all, of course. I'm talking homestyle food, much like this: http://recipes.chef2chef.net/recipe-...7/049247.shtml ....rather than something grand and special like this most famous dish from Fujian: http://www.shme.com/dish/dish085.htm >...is there a difference if you > add fresh shiitake mushrooms to MaPo Tofu? Waitaminit! I don't think > mushroom is an ingredient in the original recipe! Does it taste better with > mushrooms or without? Using dried mushrooms is just a variation, a quite tasty one. With the strong flavors in this dish, fresh mushrooms would be simply lost in the din. > > > > Hmm...now I wonder about your cultural roots. What are they exactly? > > Because any Chinese should be familiar with dried tangerine peel. > > Haha, before you verify my cultural roots, you'll have to verify your > statement about tangerine peel as a staple food in Chinese cuisine. > Guangdong cuisine uses tangerine peel often in dessert dishes and medicinal > food preparation, seldom as a common staple. The northern cuisine uses it > even less. Sichuan cuisine uses it most perhaps, especially in spicy > dishes. Just as Japan will have its various provincial cuisine, so does > Chinese. You cannot be generalising it now, can you? No, of course it's not used everywhere. But a Chinese should be familiar with its existence. Now, won't you tell us about your cultural origin? > > > > "Tortured to its last spirit" -- I do like this. A very poetic way of > > putting it. > > > Hey, I thought that was your line...no? No, but I promise to steal it. Appropriate it. Umm...deconstruct it. Yeah, that's it. --crymad |
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samarkand wrote: > > "crymad" > wrote in message > ... [much snipping again] > > In simple soups, Chinese style, here at home, in the US. Sometimes I'll > > add dried shiitake to MaPo Tofu. > > > Simple soups? Chinese soups are not simple Not all, of course. I'm talking homestyle food, much like this: http://recipes.chef2chef.net/recipe-...7/049247.shtml ....rather than something grand and special like this most famous dish from Fujian: http://www.shme.com/dish/dish085.htm >...is there a difference if you > add fresh shiitake mushrooms to MaPo Tofu? Waitaminit! I don't think > mushroom is an ingredient in the original recipe! Does it taste better with > mushrooms or without? Using dried mushrooms is just a variation, a quite tasty one. With the strong flavors in this dish, fresh mushrooms would be simply lost in the din. > > > > Hmm...now I wonder about your cultural roots. What are they exactly? > > Because any Chinese should be familiar with dried tangerine peel. > > Haha, before you verify my cultural roots, you'll have to verify your > statement about tangerine peel as a staple food in Chinese cuisine. > Guangdong cuisine uses tangerine peel often in dessert dishes and medicinal > food preparation, seldom as a common staple. The northern cuisine uses it > even less. Sichuan cuisine uses it most perhaps, especially in spicy > dishes. Just as Japan will have its various provincial cuisine, so does > Chinese. You cannot be generalising it now, can you? No, of course it's not used everywhere. But a Chinese should be familiar with its existence. Now, won't you tell us about your cultural origin? > > > > "Tortured to its last spirit" -- I do like this. A very poetic way of > > putting it. > > > Hey, I thought that was your line...no? No, but I promise to steal it. Appropriate it. Umm...deconstruct it. Yeah, that's it. --crymad |
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> I can remember the one time I
> had sushi in America (Ike-no-Hana, somewhere around San Jose) that was in > the same league as the better Japanese offerings. Zono Sushi in SJ. Oh, dear me.... Hmm... how long it would take me to get there if I leave Reno right away? Sasha. |
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"crymad" > wrote in message ... > > > cc wrote: >> >> "crymad" > wrote in message >> >> > Hmm...now I wonder about your cultural roots. What are they exactly? >> > Because any Chinese should be familiar with dried tangerine peel. >> >> Like any Japanese should get a stock of dried yuzu peel from Koya-san and >> use some daily in shichimi mix ? And in the US, I guess you are familiar >> with pemmican (sp ?) and if you didn't have any for breakfast, we can >> start >> doubting you're really posting from there. > > Samarkand also seemed puzzled with the mushroom soy reference a few > posts above. Samarkand may in fact be Chinese, but just doesn't cook > much. > Samarkand does, but there's is no straw mushroom soy sauce in chinese cooking, not that I know of. I don't assume I know every soy sauce available in the market, but I think you are going too far in assuming that I do not cook or that I MAY only be Chinese just because I'm not familiar with a type of soy sauce that you can find in wherever you are. I believe I have been quite civil in replying to your queries, please don't make me think you are just a loud mouth westerner who has a larger than life image of himself and the culture he basks in, and poorly of others. You are correct that we have strayed too far from the subject, so I shall not continue further. >> Really Crymad, I don't know where you're getting at. > > Well, this thread has kind of drifted off a bit. Originally, it was > about Puerh and how its preserved, aged flavor reminds me of so many > other Chinese foodstuffs. > > --crymad |
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"crymad" > wrote in message ... > > > cc wrote: >> >> "crymad" > wrote in message >> >> > Hmm...now I wonder about your cultural roots. What are they exactly? >> > Because any Chinese should be familiar with dried tangerine peel. >> >> Like any Japanese should get a stock of dried yuzu peel from Koya-san and >> use some daily in shichimi mix ? And in the US, I guess you are familiar >> with pemmican (sp ?) and if you didn't have any for breakfast, we can >> start >> doubting you're really posting from there. > > Samarkand also seemed puzzled with the mushroom soy reference a few > posts above. Samarkand may in fact be Chinese, but just doesn't cook > much. > Samarkand does, but there's is no straw mushroom soy sauce in chinese cooking, not that I know of. I don't assume I know every soy sauce available in the market, but I think you are going too far in assuming that I do not cook or that I MAY only be Chinese just because I'm not familiar with a type of soy sauce that you can find in wherever you are. I believe I have been quite civil in replying to your queries, please don't make me think you are just a loud mouth westerner who has a larger than life image of himself and the culture he basks in, and poorly of others. You are correct that we have strayed too far from the subject, so I shall not continue further. >> Really Crymad, I don't know where you're getting at. > > Well, this thread has kind of drifted off a bit. Originally, it was > about Puerh and how its preserved, aged flavor reminds me of so many > other Chinese foodstuffs. > > --crymad |
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Okay you Asian Iron Chefs what is that dry yellow blob in moon cakes?
My favorite Chinese greasy spoon Buck-A-Scoop. You get to pick from 10 stir frys, noodles,rice,soup,pot stickers only a George Washington for each. Mainly carry out but some tables. Our latest sushi trend McSushi. Instead of bars and chefs it is house saki + prepared for a buck each ala dim sum. I wished I could find two places like this next to each other. Jim crymad > wrote in message >... > cc wrote: > > > Really Crymad, I don't know where you're getting at. > > Well, this thread has kind of drifted off a bit. Originally, it was > about Puerh and how its preserved, aged flavor reminds me of so many > other Chinese foodstuffs. > > --crymad |
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Okay you Asian Iron Chefs what is that dry yellow blob in moon cakes?
My favorite Chinese greasy spoon Buck-A-Scoop. You get to pick from 10 stir frys, noodles,rice,soup,pot stickers only a George Washington for each. Mainly carry out but some tables. Our latest sushi trend McSushi. Instead of bars and chefs it is house saki + prepared for a buck each ala dim sum. I wished I could find two places like this next to each other. Jim crymad > wrote in message >... > cc wrote: > > > Really Crymad, I don't know where you're getting at. > > Well, this thread has kind of drifted off a bit. Originally, it was > about Puerh and how its preserved, aged flavor reminds me of so many > other Chinese foodstuffs. > > --crymad |
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samarkand wrote: > > "crymad" > wrote in message > ... > > > > Samarkand also seemed puzzled with the mushroom soy reference a few > > posts above. Samarkand may in fact be Chinese, but just doesn't cook > > much. > > > > Samarkand does, but there's is no straw mushroom soy sauce in chinese > cooking, not that I know of. > Here's a supplier in China, with all the contact information: http://camill.en.alibaba.com/product.../50040633.html Your email address suggests you live in the UK. If so, you can find mushroom soy at Hoo Hing: http://www.hoohing.com/acatalog/Prod...auces_222.html > I don't assume I know every soy sauce available in the market, but I think > you are going too far in assuming that I do not cook or that I MAY only be > Chinese just because I'm not familiar with a type of soy sauce that you can > find in wherever you are. I believe I have been quite civil in replying to > your queries, please don't make me think you are just a loud mouth westerner > who has a larger than life image of himself and the culture he basks in, and > poorly of others. You're overreacting a bit now. I asked you repeatedly about your cultural origins, but you remained coy. Speculation using the clues you provided was the only option, really. --crymad |
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Space Cowboy wrote: > > Okay you Asian Iron Chefs what is that dry yellow blob in moon cakes? Here you go, from the same enterprise that brings you that chinese staple, mushroom soy: http://camill.en.alibaba.com/product...oon_Cakes.html I'm sure Mr. Ge or Ms. Zhu Jianhon can answer all your questions. --crymad |
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Space Cowboy wrote: > > Okay you Asian Iron Chefs what is that dry yellow blob in moon cakes? Here you go, from the same enterprise that brings you that chinese staple, mushroom soy: http://camill.en.alibaba.com/product...oon_Cakes.html I'm sure Mr. Ge or Ms. Zhu Jianhon can answer all your questions. --crymad |
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"Joel Reicher" > wrote in message ... > (Space Cowboy) writes: > >> Okay you Asian Iron Chefs what is that dry yellow blob in moon cakes? > > Lotus seed paste, if I've understood your question and if the moon > cakes you've had are the same as the ones I've had. > Usually made from lotus seed paste, there are 2 types: white and usual lotus seed paste. In the recent years many other ingredients have also been used as fillings, from colour to ice cream! The dry yellow blob in moon cakes, I think you meant the duck's egg yolk. Traditionally, duck yolk is used as the centre filling, to balance the over-sweetness of the paste. The paste itself is mixed with lard to give it a smoother texture, but in the recent decades with the alarm raised on high cholestrol and healthy eating, this is discarded, and vegetable oil used instead. To make the mooncake available to vegetarians, the yolk is replaced with coloured lotus paste. Samar |
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"Joel Reicher" > wrote in message ... > (Space Cowboy) writes: > >> Okay you Asian Iron Chefs what is that dry yellow blob in moon cakes? > > Lotus seed paste, if I've understood your question and if the moon > cakes you've had are the same as the ones I've had. > Usually made from lotus seed paste, there are 2 types: white and usual lotus seed paste. In the recent years many other ingredients have also been used as fillings, from colour to ice cream! The dry yellow blob in moon cakes, I think you meant the duck's egg yolk. Traditionally, duck yolk is used as the centre filling, to balance the over-sweetness of the paste. The paste itself is mixed with lard to give it a smoother texture, but in the recent decades with the alarm raised on high cholestrol and healthy eating, this is discarded, and vegetable oil used instead. To make the mooncake available to vegetarians, the yolk is replaced with coloured lotus paste. Samar |
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I don't think the rice is stinky- but Pu-erh is stinky. It makes me feel
better when I have a cold, but it still tastes and smells like poo. Having a respect for many aspects of Asian culture (I'm not Asian) doesn't stop me from thinking that Pu-erh is stinky, that natto is like snot and smells worse, and that I'd probably rather eat ground glass than kimchee. Sometimes I think crymad is so busy showing that he's the only Westerner who truly understands the 'mysterious' East that he doesn't realize it lost its mystery for a lot of us long ago. Wanting to learn more about a various cultures and their histories isn't the same as treating cultures like they have all the answers. The BF used to do English Civil War reenactments and revered aspects of the period, but he wasn't crazy enough to want to build a time machine and live in the real Britain of that period, anymore than practicing kendo and eating sushi makes him wish he could have been a ronin. "samarkand" > wrote in message ... > I hope you meant Chinese rice wine and not Chinese rice? Soy sauce doesn't > stink heaven high, fish sauce does the job better. Soy sauce stinks > terribly while fermenting, but the end product can make the food taste > better. I'm not sure how many types of soy sauce Japanese have in their > cuisine, I'm always baffled by the soy sauce for the sushi and the tempura > and many others, but in Chinese cuisine, we have more than 4 types, and some > soy sauce can be sweet instead of salty, so I wonder to which soy sauce the > self-respecting Japanese considers stinky? > > Samar > > "crymad" > wrote in message > ... > > > > > > cc wrote: > > > > > > "crymad" > wrote in message > > > > > > > I'd be interested to learn Kuri's impressions of Puerh drinking in > > > > Japan. Not because I place greater faith in the good taste of the > > > > Japanese when it comes to tea, but simply because I think non-Asians > are > > > > overly respectful and hesitant to voice criticism for fear of > insulting > > > > the mysterious East's rich cultural heritage. > > > > > > And you think you'll find many Japanese to voice criticism on > > > holy-saint-Chinese-tea ? That's not their style. > > > > Oh, you give them too much credit. Any self-respecting Japanese knows > > Chinese rice and soy sauce stinks to high heaven. Why should tea get > > special treatment? > > > > |
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This is quite simple. There are individuals who understand the way people
get insulted and there are ones that do not. Usually its their parents who were the same way and never wanted to improve. I have seen people who would look at their companion's plate in the restaurant and say - this is awful, how can you eat that? And they do not mean anything insulting, they just were never brought up the proper way. They would also stare at a paraplegic person, pick their nose in public and belch when they have eaten enough. Yes, they probably understand the improperness of passing wind in the presence of others, but that is as far as their upbringing goes. The simple rule that you never use the words "stink, awful, yuk, etc" speaking about food that others eat and admire, never call "ugly, awful or terrible" things that people wear - is too sophisticated for them. There are many ways to express your personal rejections for certain foods, styles and many other things - you can say that this scent is a bit too rough for you, that you have never developed a taste, etc. But their childish minds find it easier to just compare things they do not like to snot and poo. Sasha. "Tea" > wrote in message ... >I don't think the rice is stinky- but Pu-erh is stinky. It makes me feel > better when I have a cold, but it still tastes and smells like poo. Having > a > respect for many aspects of Asian culture (I'm not Asian) doesn't stop me > from thinking that Pu-erh is stinky, that natto is like snot and smells > worse, and that I'd probably rather eat ground glass than kimchee. > > Sometimes I think crymad is so busy showing that he's the only Westerner > who > truly understands the 'mysterious' East that he doesn't realize it lost > its > mystery for a lot of us long ago. Wanting to learn more about a various > cultures and their histories isn't the same as treating cultures like they > have all the answers. The BF used to do English Civil War reenactments > and > revered aspects of the period, but he wasn't crazy enough to want to build > a > time machine and live in the real Britain of that period, anymore than > practicing kendo and eating sushi makes him wish he could have been a > ronin. > "samarkand" > wrote in message > ... >> I hope you meant Chinese rice wine and not Chinese rice? Soy sauce > doesn't >> stink heaven high, fish sauce does the job better. Soy sauce stinks >> terribly while fermenting, but the end product can make the food taste >> better. I'm not sure how many types of soy sauce Japanese have in their >> cuisine, I'm always baffled by the soy sauce for the sushi and the >> tempura >> and many others, but in Chinese cuisine, we have more than 4 types, and > some >> soy sauce can be sweet instead of salty, so I wonder to which soy sauce > the >> self-respecting Japanese considers stinky? >> >> Samar >> >> "crymad" > wrote in message >> ... >> > >> > >> > cc wrote: >> > > >> > > "crymad" > wrote in message >> > > >> > > > I'd be interested to learn Kuri's impressions of Puerh drinking in >> > > > Japan. Not because I place greater faith in the good taste of the >> > > > Japanese when it comes to tea, but simply because I think >> > > > non-Asians >> are >> > > > overly respectful and hesitant to voice criticism for fear of >> insulting >> > > > the mysterious East's rich cultural heritage. >> > > >> > > And you think you'll find many Japanese to voice criticism on >> > > holy-saint-Chinese-tea ? That's not their style. >> > >> > Oh, you give them too much credit. Any self-respecting Japanese knows >> > Chinese rice and soy sauce stinks to high heaven. Why should tea get >> > special treatment? >> > >> >> > > |
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Alex igy.com10/14/04
Sasha, not so simple, I think. "Common" courtesy is surely not common, but what it means is culture specific, not universal. When we say Pu-erh -- or Durian, for that matter -- is stinky, we speak affectionately, right guys? Michael > This is quite simple. There are individuals who understand the way people > get insulted and there are ones that do not. Usually its their parents who > were the same way and never wanted to improve. > I have seen people who would look at their companion's plate in the > restaurant and say - this is awful, how can you eat that? And they do not > mean anything insulting, they just were never brought up the proper way. > They would also stare at a paraplegic person, pick their nose in public and > belch when they have eaten enough. Yes, they probably understand the > improperness of passing wind in the presence of others, but that is as far > as their upbringing goes. > The simple rule that you never use the words "stink, awful, yuk, etc" > speaking about food that others eat and admire, never call "ugly, awful or > terrible" things that people wear - is too sophisticated for them. There are > many ways to express your personal rejections for certain foods, styles and > many other things - you can say that this scent is a bit too rough for you, > that you have never developed a taste, etc. But their childish minds find it > easier to just compare things they do not like to snot and poo. > > Sasha. |
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"Michael Plant" > wrote in message ... > Alex igy.com10/14/04 > > Sasha, not so simple, I think. "Common" courtesy is surely not common, but > what it means is culture specific, not universal. When we say Pu-erh -- or > Durian, for that matter -- is stinky, we speak affectionately, right guys? Michael, I appreciate your diplomatic stance, but no, this is not about liking or not liking things - which would qualify as culture specific. Saying that "Having a respect for many aspects of Asian culture (I'm not Asian) doesn't stop me from thinking that Pu-erh is stinky, that natto is like snot and smells worse, and that I'd probably rather eat ground glass than kimchee." is not "affectionate" and you know that. And not calling what others eat "snot" is a universal "common" courtesy, to put it mildly. Sasha. |
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"Michael Plant" > wrote in message ... > Alex igy.com10/14/04 > > Sasha, not so simple, I think. "Common" courtesy is surely not common, but > what it means is culture specific, not universal. When we say Pu-erh -- or > Durian, for that matter -- is stinky, we speak affectionately, right guys? Michael, I appreciate your diplomatic stance, but no, this is not about liking or not liking things - which would qualify as culture specific. Saying that "Having a respect for many aspects of Asian culture (I'm not Asian) doesn't stop me from thinking that Pu-erh is stinky, that natto is like snot and smells worse, and that I'd probably rather eat ground glass than kimchee." is not "affectionate" and you know that. And not calling what others eat "snot" is a universal "common" courtesy, to put it mildly. Sasha. |
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Alex y.com10/14/04
> > "Michael Plant" > wrote in message > ... >> Alex igy.com10/14/04 >> >> Sasha, not so simple, I think. "Common" courtesy is surely not common, but >> what it means is culture specific, not universal. When we say Pu-erh -- or >> Durian, for that matter -- is stinky, we speak affectionately, right guys? > > Michael, I appreciate your diplomatic stance, but no, this is not about > liking or not liking things - which would qualify as culture specific. > Saying that "Having a respect for many aspects of Asian culture (I'm not > Asian) doesn't stop me from thinking that Pu-erh is stinky, that natto is > like snot and smells worse, and that I'd probably rather eat ground glass > than kimchee." is not "affectionate" and you know that. > And not calling what others eat "snot" is a universal "common" courtesy, to > put it mildly. > > Sasha. Admittedly, that would be quite a stretch of the cultural warp. Point well taken. But, in a broader sense, I think how we express our likes and dislikes can be as culture specific as the likes and dislikes we express. JMESHO. (When I typed my post, I was thinking of some durian loving Chinese friends who referr to it as "stinky fruit," and my own feeling about Pu-erh, which can be many things, not all of them pleasant, but always an adventure and a journey worth taking. Michael |
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Alex y.com10/14/04
> > "Michael Plant" > wrote in message > ... >> Alex igy.com10/14/04 >> >> Sasha, not so simple, I think. "Common" courtesy is surely not common, but >> what it means is culture specific, not universal. When we say Pu-erh -- or >> Durian, for that matter -- is stinky, we speak affectionately, right guys? > > Michael, I appreciate your diplomatic stance, but no, this is not about > liking or not liking things - which would qualify as culture specific. > Saying that "Having a respect for many aspects of Asian culture (I'm not > Asian) doesn't stop me from thinking that Pu-erh is stinky, that natto is > like snot and smells worse, and that I'd probably rather eat ground glass > than kimchee." is not "affectionate" and you know that. > And not calling what others eat "snot" is a universal "common" courtesy, to > put it mildly. > > Sasha. Admittedly, that would be quite a stretch of the cultural warp. Point well taken. But, in a broader sense, I think how we express our likes and dislikes can be as culture specific as the likes and dislikes we express. JMESHO. (When I typed my post, I was thinking of some durian loving Chinese friends who referr to it as "stinky fruit," and my own feeling about Pu-erh, which can be many things, not all of them pleasant, but always an adventure and a journey worth taking. Michael |
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