Tea (rec.drink.tea) Discussion relating to tea, the world's second most consumed beverage (after water), made by infusing or boiling the leaves of the tea plant (C. sinensis or close relatives) in water.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #41 (permalink)   Report Post  
Steve Hay
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Dog Ma 1 wrote:
> Michael Plant wrote:
>
>>Hey guys, please don't hit me. My Japanese friends of years ago told me

>
> that
>
>>Sushi is better in the United States than in Japan because the fish is
>>fresher here. This struck me as odd, but I've never been to Japan, so how

>
> am
>
>>I to know. Think there might be truth in it?

>
>
> As Kuri says, perhaps in times past. I've eaten several times my body weight
> in sushi in Japan, and much more in the US. I can remember the one time I
> had sushi in America (Ike-no-Hana, somewhere around San Jose) that was in
> the same league as the better Japanese offerings. And the best I had over
> there (Nishimoto in Osaka, and a few places around the Tsukiji fish market)
> was in a completely different league. There is mediocre sushi in the Japan,
> as at the bars where it floats by on little boats and ages un-gracefully,
> but not much.
>
> Ironically, most of the main item - bluefin tuna - comes from Boston. We
> can't even buy real chutoro and o-toro here; it all goes to Japan.
> Imperialists stripping the wreck of this once-mighty fish-eating nation. And
> half the catch is packed by Moonies, but that's another story.
>
> -DM
>
>


I have to inject that seafood on the west coast is typically better than
east coast. A japanese friend told me Sea Urchin was much better in
America in terms of quality of fish. I think it is difficult to compare
sushii without getting variables crossed. Certainly in Japan it is
easier to find someone who can expertly prepare sushi, but I've heard
also that fresher fish is available on the West coast than in Japan.

Steve
  #42 (permalink)   Report Post  
crymad
 
Posts: n/a
Default



cc wrote:
>
> "Michael Plant" > wrote in message
>
> > Hey guys, please don't hit me. My Japanese friends of years ago told me

> that
> > Sushi is better in the United States than in Japan because the fish is
> > fresher here. This struck me as odd, but I've never been to Japan, so how

> am
> > I to know. Think there might be truth in it?

>
> Years ago, that was probably true.
>
> I have been to the US and didn't see any fresh fish for sale in most
> neighbourhoods. But well, in New-York, you live differently.


You'll have to excuse Michael. Living in the Center of the Universe can
cloud your vision. No doubt, good Japanese food can be found in NY.

>
> Now, in Japanese cities the choice of fresh and very fish is huge. Maybe
> that's too much as we're wasting and contributing to the global ecological
> disaster.
> I only miss the urchins, oysters, real crabs and a few others seafood (here,
> most times, they *unshell* oysters and urchins before shipping, that's
> awful).


My only real longings living in Japan were oysters and line-caught river
salmon. Other than that, Japan is a fish paradise. It's sanma season
now, isn't it, Kuri? I always looked forward to autumn and grilling
skewered sanma over hardwood charcoal outside.

--crymad
  #43 (permalink)   Report Post  
crymad
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Steve Hay wrote:
>
> I have to inject that seafood on the west coast is typically better than
> east coast. A japanese friend told me Sea Urchin was much better in
> America in terms of quality of fish. I think it is difficult to compare
> sushii without getting variables crossed. Certainly in Japan it is
> easier to find someone who can expertly prepare sushi, but I've heard
> also that fresher fish is available on the West coast than in Japan.


Perhaps San Francisco has a good bounty. But I live in Portland and
have lived in Seattle, and truly fine fish so common all over Japan is
difficult to find in both cities. Then again, I'm partial to whole,
small fishes, not the ubiquitous steaks of halibut or swordfish or tuna.

--crymad
  #44 (permalink)   Report Post  
samarkand
 
Posts: n/a
Default

> > > Outside of raw fish and sushi, plain soy sauce is rarely served
> > > alongside Japanese dishes. I infer from your comments in the previous
> > > post that you are Chinese. If so, what are your thoughts on raw
> > > seafood?
> > >

> > Love it, and I like my dip to be a thick paste made with little soy

sauce
> > and lots of wasabi - I think the Japanese prefer it to be little wasabi

and
> > lots of soy sauce?

>
> Generally. But applying excessive amounts of either is considered to be
> bad form. Though many Japanese are guilty of the practice, dredging raw
> fish or sushi in this side sauce overwhelms the delicacy of the food
> itself.
>

Very true. I always like wasabi, that's the reason I make my side sauce
thick with it, but my dip is always on the corner of the meat, never fully
soaking the food with the sauce - it's quite potent even with the little
touch, and I like it that way.

> To bring this back to tea, and Puerh in particular, I asserted some time
> back that the Chinese appreciation of Puerh is in keeping with what I
> called their "fondness for foods from the deadside". Here's what I
> wrote:
>
> >Examples of the Chinese fondness for foods from the deadside abound:
> >
> >Dried shiitake mushrooms favored over fresh
> >Dried citrus peel favored over fresh
> >Preserved duck eggs
> >Fermented Dou-Fu Ru tofu, which keeps indefinitely
> >Preserved vegetables which require no refrigeration
> >Dried seafoods of all sorts, while raw fish/oysters have little appeal
> >
> >This last one is perhaps the most telling when it comes to differences
> >in Chinese and Japanese palates. Sea slugs -- sometimes called sea
> >cucumbers -- are enjoyed by both Chinese and Japanese. The Chinese dry
> >them as hard as a rock, soak them for several days, boil them in
> >multiple changes of water, clean them, and then finally incorporate
> >these thoroughly lifeless remains in dishes by further cooking. The
> >Japanese eat them raw and quivering.

>
> I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on this.
>

Every culture has its preference for food from the deadside abound, I don't
think Chinese have a larger repertoire of it. Similarly, I don't think
Chinese nowadays are particularly fond of such food. In the past, these
food was borne out of necessity, which in turn may have become delicacies in
certain cases (such as the sea cucumber); but these days the Chinese economy
is getting more affluent and fresh food is easily available and within
affordable expenditure, so these preserved food is taking a backseat, and
often appear during the wintry months on festive ocassions - just for old
time's sake.

In your example of the sea cucumber, I presume Japanese's preference on
eating it raw is to savour its freshness? I've yet to eat that though.
Chinese have a wider use for dried sea cucumber, with an interesting
history. Using sea cucumber in Chinese cuisine is a recent development,
during the Qing dynasty. It began, of all places, in Sichuan, where fish
merchants carried it along with the other sea produce from the coasts, via
Shangdong. Needless to say over such long journeys these items were first
dried before embarking on its long journey inland. The Sichuan people used
it as a source of protein in the long wintry months and as medicine in food
to treat pre-mature ejeculations, impotency, and other 'man' problems; this
practice spread later west and south wards. Till today, one doesn't see
dried sea cucumber in supermarkets, but mostly available in medicinal halls.
Being dried in the past means the medicinal halls could sell it all year
round, instead of making a seasonal produce.

Likewise for dried citrus peel, they are peeled and sliced for medicinal use
in food, to treat high blood pressure, dry coughs, insomnia. Chinese
believe that the citrus peel of citrus tangerina (available only in season
in the past) is a great nourishment to the lungs and spleen, hence the old
saying that whenever the citrus is in seasn, the doctors are busy in drying
the peels. Peels that are fresh are too sharp, for people with phlegmy
coughs this might bring on more phlegm. When it is dried, its properties are
not so harsh, and there's a tangy sweetness to it which makes it excellent
to be included in food to enhance the flavours, while benefitting the body.

I'm not saying that Chinese have every use for dried stuff from the
'deadside' as a medicine, there are also a lot of which are based in history
and necessity, from a race of people who have witnessed great calamities
both man-made and natural for them to make greater use of the food resource
that they have at hand. At least, the deadside preference of Chinese do not
include a large variety of processed food.

Japanese also have a repertoire of deadside food, we are not that different
after all: Natto (I love, my friends hate it), aonori, umeboshi, miso,
konbu, hijiki, bonito, pickled baby octopus, pickled cuttlefish, preserved
roes, etc. Yummy!

Samar


  #45 (permalink)   Report Post  
samarkand
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"crymad" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> cc wrote:
> >
> > "Michael Plant" > wrote in message
> >
> > > Hey guys, please don't hit me. My Japanese friends of years ago told

me
> > that
> > > Sushi is better in the United States than in Japan because the fish is
> > > fresher here. This struck me as odd, but I've never been to Japan, so

how
> > am
> > > I to know. Think there might be truth in it?

> >
> > Years ago, that was probably true.
> >
> > I have been to the US and didn't see any fresh fish for sale in most
> > neighbourhoods. But well, in New-York, you live differently.

>
> You'll have to excuse Michael. Living in the Center of the Universe can
> cloud your vision. No doubt, good Japanese food can be found in NY.
>

Splendid! Any recommendation of a good Japanese restaurant? I only know of
'East' which is on 54th on 8th (I think...)in Manhattan...and it is not as
good as the ones I've had in San Francsico.

> >
> > Now, in Japanese cities the choice of fresh and very fish is huge. Maybe
> > that's too much as we're wasting and contributing to the global

ecological
> > disaster.
> > I only miss the urchins, oysters, real crabs and a few others seafood

(here,
> > most times, they *unshell* oysters and urchins before shipping, that's
> > awful).

>
> My only real longings living in Japan were oysters and line-caught river
> salmon. Other than that, Japan is a fish paradise. It's sanma season
> now, isn't it, Kuri? I always looked forward to autumn and grilling
> skewered sanma over hardwood charcoal outside.
>

When is the 'pregnant fish' season? I like that, it's a string of small
fish skewered on a piece of stick with lots of roe inside. I don't even
know its name in Japanese...




  #46 (permalink)   Report Post  
crymad
 
Posts: n/a
Default

[much snippage]

samarkand wrote:
>
> Every culture has its preference for food from the deadside abound, I don't
> think Chinese have a larger repertoire of it. Similarly, I don't think
> Chinese nowadays are particularly fond of such food. In the past, these
> food was borne out of necessity, which in turn may have become delicacies in
> certain cases (such as the sea cucumber); but these days the Chinese economy
> is getting more affluent and fresh food is easily available and within
> affordable expenditure, so these preserved food is taking a backseat, and
> often appear during the wintry months on festive ocassions - just for old
> time's sake.


Is preserved food in Chinese cuisine really just a holdover from more
rugged times? How do you explain the near absence of fresh black
mushrooms (shiitake) in classic Chinese dishes when dried ones are
employed extensively?

> Likewise for dried citrus peel, they are peeled and sliced for medicinal use
> in food, to treat high blood pressure, dry coughs, insomnia.


Yes, but dried tangerine peel is by no means limited to medicinal uses
in China. It is a staple in Sichuan and Fujian provinces as a
seasoning.

>
> I'm not saying that Chinese have every use for dried stuff from the
> 'deadside' as a medicine, there are also a lot of which are based in history
> and necessity, from a race of people who have witnessed great calamities
> both man-made and natural for them to make greater use of the food resource
> that they have at hand. At least, the deadside preference of Chinese do not
> include a large variety of processed food.


And where does Puerh fit in this discussion? Is this another holdover
from China's less affluent times? More interestingly, is Puerh viewed
as an anachronism by younger, contemporary Chinese?

> Japanese also have a repertoire of deadside food, we are not that different
> after all: Natto (I love, my friends hate it),


Natto was brought up as a counterexample the first time this topic came
up. Natto is not an old food. From fresh beans to sticky natto takes
only 24 hours, and it is highly perishable, always stored under
refrigeration.

> aonori, umeboshi, miso,
> konbu, hijiki, bonito, pickled baby octopus, pickled cuttlefish, preserved
> roes, etc. Yummy!


The dried seaweeds you mention are also eaten in their fresh state,
however. Pickled octopus/squid are not truly pickled or preserved --
they are stored refrigerated and easily subject to spoilage. Umeboshi
is a better example. But bonito (katuso) is better still, even more so
seeing as this dried fish flesh forms the foundation for Japanese
cuisine.

--crymad
  #47 (permalink)   Report Post  
crymad
 
Posts: n/a
Default

[much snippage]

samarkand wrote:
>
> Every culture has its preference for food from the deadside abound, I don't
> think Chinese have a larger repertoire of it. Similarly, I don't think
> Chinese nowadays are particularly fond of such food. In the past, these
> food was borne out of necessity, which in turn may have become delicacies in
> certain cases (such as the sea cucumber); but these days the Chinese economy
> is getting more affluent and fresh food is easily available and within
> affordable expenditure, so these preserved food is taking a backseat, and
> often appear during the wintry months on festive ocassions - just for old
> time's sake.


Is preserved food in Chinese cuisine really just a holdover from more
rugged times? How do you explain the near absence of fresh black
mushrooms (shiitake) in classic Chinese dishes when dried ones are
employed extensively?

> Likewise for dried citrus peel, they are peeled and sliced for medicinal use
> in food, to treat high blood pressure, dry coughs, insomnia.


Yes, but dried tangerine peel is by no means limited to medicinal uses
in China. It is a staple in Sichuan and Fujian provinces as a
seasoning.

>
> I'm not saying that Chinese have every use for dried stuff from the
> 'deadside' as a medicine, there are also a lot of which are based in history
> and necessity, from a race of people who have witnessed great calamities
> both man-made and natural for them to make greater use of the food resource
> that they have at hand. At least, the deadside preference of Chinese do not
> include a large variety of processed food.


And where does Puerh fit in this discussion? Is this another holdover
from China's less affluent times? More interestingly, is Puerh viewed
as an anachronism by younger, contemporary Chinese?

> Japanese also have a repertoire of deadside food, we are not that different
> after all: Natto (I love, my friends hate it),


Natto was brought up as a counterexample the first time this topic came
up. Natto is not an old food. From fresh beans to sticky natto takes
only 24 hours, and it is highly perishable, always stored under
refrigeration.

> aonori, umeboshi, miso,
> konbu, hijiki, bonito, pickled baby octopus, pickled cuttlefish, preserved
> roes, etc. Yummy!


The dried seaweeds you mention are also eaten in their fresh state,
however. Pickled octopus/squid are not truly pickled or preserved --
they are stored refrigerated and easily subject to spoilage. Umeboshi
is a better example. But bonito (katuso) is better still, even more so
seeing as this dried fish flesh forms the foundation for Japanese
cuisine.

--crymad
  #48 (permalink)   Report Post  
T
 
Posts: n/a
Default

crymad wrote:
>
> Steve Hay wrote:
>
>>I have to inject that seafood on the west coast is typically better than
>>east coast. A japanese friend told me Sea Urchin was much better in
>>America in terms of quality of fish. I think it is difficult to compare
>>sushii without getting variables crossed. Certainly in Japan it is
>>easier to find someone who can expertly prepare sushi, but I've heard
>>also that fresher fish is available on the West coast than in Japan.

>
>
> Perhaps San Francisco has a good bounty. But I live in Portland and
> have lived in Seattle, and truly fine fish so common all over Japan is
> difficult to find in both cities. Then again, I'm partial to whole,
> small fishes, not the ubiquitous steaks of halibut or swordfish or tuna.
>
> --crymad



Well, I live near SF, CA and I haven't seen anything like it (the
Greater Bay Area) for Sushi in my travels to other states.

Now my travels have been all over but I must admit I didn't really
indulge deeply in sushi when on such journeys, so with a pinch of salt
over the shoulder I continue.

Partly there was the DOT COM bubble bursting which put a great crimp on
all kinds of entertainment economy, including eating out and singles/
bachelor lifestyles; sushi restaurants included. Things are just now
seeming to turn around, around here, but in a way, while hard on folks,
it had the effect of shaking out the industry and good places tend to
survive. (But not always.)

_That_ said I wanted to pass along a link to a place I found just
surfing around. <disclaimer> I haven't tried them yet, nor do I have any
ties to them, but here ya go:

<http://www.catalinaop.com>

They mention being able to mail order little fishies to your doorstep,
including Uni, a favorite of mine if fresh and high quality.

ANYwho, I do know that the West Coast; SF & perhaps LA, enjoys a large
Asian (Japanese) contingent which, who along with those yuppies [and
post yuppies], have been driving the market to encourage high quality
and wide ranging spectrum of sushi offerings.

<pause to drawn breath>

Enjoy,
TBerk
  #49 (permalink)   Report Post  
T
 
Posts: n/a
Default

crymad wrote:
>
> Steve Hay wrote:
>
>>I have to inject that seafood on the west coast is typically better than
>>east coast. A japanese friend told me Sea Urchin was much better in
>>America in terms of quality of fish. I think it is difficult to compare
>>sushii without getting variables crossed. Certainly in Japan it is
>>easier to find someone who can expertly prepare sushi, but I've heard
>>also that fresher fish is available on the West coast than in Japan.

>
>
> Perhaps San Francisco has a good bounty. But I live in Portland and
> have lived in Seattle, and truly fine fish so common all over Japan is
> difficult to find in both cities. Then again, I'm partial to whole,
> small fishes, not the ubiquitous steaks of halibut or swordfish or tuna.
>
> --crymad



Well, I live near SF, CA and I haven't seen anything like it (the
Greater Bay Area) for Sushi in my travels to other states.

Now my travels have been all over but I must admit I didn't really
indulge deeply in sushi when on such journeys, so with a pinch of salt
over the shoulder I continue.

Partly there was the DOT COM bubble bursting which put a great crimp on
all kinds of entertainment economy, including eating out and singles/
bachelor lifestyles; sushi restaurants included. Things are just now
seeming to turn around, around here, but in a way, while hard on folks,
it had the effect of shaking out the industry and good places tend to
survive. (But not always.)

_That_ said I wanted to pass along a link to a place I found just
surfing around. <disclaimer> I haven't tried them yet, nor do I have any
ties to them, but here ya go:

<http://www.catalinaop.com>

They mention being able to mail order little fishies to your doorstep,
including Uni, a favorite of mine if fresh and high quality.

ANYwho, I do know that the West Coast; SF & perhaps LA, enjoys a large
Asian (Japanese) contingent which, who along with those yuppies [and
post yuppies], have been driving the market to encourage high quality
and wide ranging spectrum of sushi offerings.

<pause to drawn breath>

Enjoy,
TBerk
  #50 (permalink)   Report Post  
samarkand
 
Posts: n/a
Default

[not much snippage]

"crymad" > wrote in message
...
> [much snippage]
>
> samarkand wrote:
> >
> > Every culture has its preference for food from the deadside abound, I

don't
> > think Chinese have a larger repertoire of it. Similarly, I don't think
> > Chinese nowadays are particularly fond of such food. In the past, these
> > food was borne out of necessity, which in turn may have become

delicacies in
> > certain cases (such as the sea cucumber); but these days the Chinese

economy
> > is getting more affluent and fresh food is easily available and within
> > affordable expenditure, so these preserved food is taking a backseat,

and
> > often appear during the wintry months on festive ocassions - just for

old
> > time's sake.

>
> Is preserved food in Chinese cuisine really just a holdover from more
> rugged times? How do you explain the near absence of fresh black
> mushrooms (shiitake) in classic Chinese dishes when dried ones are
> employed extensively?
>

If you take a look Chinese cuisine in the recent decades, fresh mushrooms
are used, especially the straw mushrooms you mentioned. Dried mushrooms
become abundant in China during the wintry months, but farther south in
Hainan island, Hongkong, Taiwan, Singapore and Malaysia, fresh shiitake
mushrooms are available all year round and frequently used in cooking
instead of the dried version. Dried mushrooms are still used in certain
dishes however, because it imparts a stronger flavour, and in my opinion,
imparts a nicer flavour especially when used mixed with minced pork and
steamed. Fresh shiitake doesn't give that 'punch'. I believe out of
necessaity during rugged times, it has evolved into a cuisine preference.
Another example is steamed fish with dried shiitake. It tastes much better
than when I use the fresh variety.

What are the classic Chinese dishes that you've eaten using dried shiitake
recently? And where? Food and location can sometimes reveal interesting
cultural roots...

> > Likewise for dried citrus peel, they are peeled and sliced for medicinal

use
> > in food, to treat high blood pressure, dry coughs, insomnia.

>
> Yes, but dried tangerine peel is by no means limited to medicinal uses
> in China. It is a staple in Sichuan and Fujian provinces as a
> seasoning.
>

Is it used as a staple? You must show me where you get this info. I can't
tell for sure it is a staple seasoning in Sichuan, but in Fujian it doesn't
appear so, perhaps you meant Guangzhou? In Chinese traditional medicine,
the line between food and medicine can be thinly drawn. Often in our
cuisine, the seasoning and ingredients can be both food and medicine. While
citrus peel is being used in food, it acts both as a seasoning while it
strengthens the spleen and lowers blood cholestrol.

Returning to the sea cucumber, to the Japanese it is a delicacy to be eaten
fresh, but to the Chinese, it is enjoyed as a food, but also to help
pre-mature ejeculation, in a sense, it is both food and medicine.

> >
> > I'm not saying that Chinese have every use for dried stuff from the
> > 'deadside' as a medicine, there are also a lot of which are based in

history
> > and necessity, from a race of people who have witnessed great calamities
> > both man-made and natural for them to make greater use of the food

resource
> > that they have at hand. At least, the deadside preference of Chinese do

not
> > include a large variety of processed food.

>
> And where does Puerh fit in this discussion? Is this another holdover
> from China's less affluent times? More interestingly, is Puerh viewed
> as an anachronism by younger, contemporary Chinese?
>

Pu'er is completely a different story. You mentioned that we have a
preference for the deadside, if tea is from the deadside, then Pu'er as
viewed by you, is of the deadside, but I don't view it that way. From what
I remember when I first read this group's posts on Pu'er, you seem to have a
view that this is not tea, but tea tortured to its last spirit. I've always
wanted to ask you where and how do you come to this opinion, but that thread
was deleted and I couldn't find it.

I remember also you disagreed with Mike Petro on some points of Pu'er as a
tea, but I lost track with the multitude of threads, I only remember some
discussions on cheeses and wines [?] in relation to Pu'er. Can you refresh
me on that one?

To answer your questions, is Pu'er another holdover from China's less
affluent times? The answer is no. It has nothing to do with that portion
of history, but I suspect your bad experiences with Pu'er may have
everything to do with greedy Chinese trying to make quick bucks, turning out
low quality teas...and is Pu'er viewed as an anachronism by younger,
contemporary Chinese? I take it that you meant mainland Chinese, where half
the young population of China knows more about Starbuck than Chinese teas in
general? Then the answer is perhaps yes, but becuase tea in general is
viewed as an anachronism and 'un-western', not just Pu'er. For the rest of
the Chinese around the world, we have the Hongkongers and Taiwanese to
thank, who took the humble Pu'er and turned it into black gold, leaving us
like poor street urchins salivating at the window displays of expensive and
out-of-reach pu'er cakes.

Incidentally, the idea of pu'er as 'the older the better and good to keep
till kingdom comes' is a recent import, post 1980s. Most Yunnan natives
still favour freshly produced Pu'er, most of them keeping it for several
years to allow the tea to wear off its greeness and sharpness.

Many developments of tea-making in history came about from mishaps, and
unintentional. I remember Ripon posted something about the history of red
tea (Keemun? ) in China. I read it and found it incorrect, but it was
deleted and I couldn't locate it to reply him.

Samar




  #51 (permalink)   Report Post  
samarkand
 
Posts: n/a
Default

[not much snippage]

"crymad" > wrote in message
...
> [much snippage]
>
> samarkand wrote:
> >
> > Every culture has its preference for food from the deadside abound, I

don't
> > think Chinese have a larger repertoire of it. Similarly, I don't think
> > Chinese nowadays are particularly fond of such food. In the past, these
> > food was borne out of necessity, which in turn may have become

delicacies in
> > certain cases (such as the sea cucumber); but these days the Chinese

economy
> > is getting more affluent and fresh food is easily available and within
> > affordable expenditure, so these preserved food is taking a backseat,

and
> > often appear during the wintry months on festive ocassions - just for

old
> > time's sake.

>
> Is preserved food in Chinese cuisine really just a holdover from more
> rugged times? How do you explain the near absence of fresh black
> mushrooms (shiitake) in classic Chinese dishes when dried ones are
> employed extensively?
>

If you take a look Chinese cuisine in the recent decades, fresh mushrooms
are used, especially the straw mushrooms you mentioned. Dried mushrooms
become abundant in China during the wintry months, but farther south in
Hainan island, Hongkong, Taiwan, Singapore and Malaysia, fresh shiitake
mushrooms are available all year round and frequently used in cooking
instead of the dried version. Dried mushrooms are still used in certain
dishes however, because it imparts a stronger flavour, and in my opinion,
imparts a nicer flavour especially when used mixed with minced pork and
steamed. Fresh shiitake doesn't give that 'punch'. I believe out of
necessaity during rugged times, it has evolved into a cuisine preference.
Another example is steamed fish with dried shiitake. It tastes much better
than when I use the fresh variety.

What are the classic Chinese dishes that you've eaten using dried shiitake
recently? And where? Food and location can sometimes reveal interesting
cultural roots...

> > Likewise for dried citrus peel, they are peeled and sliced for medicinal

use
> > in food, to treat high blood pressure, dry coughs, insomnia.

>
> Yes, but dried tangerine peel is by no means limited to medicinal uses
> in China. It is a staple in Sichuan and Fujian provinces as a
> seasoning.
>

Is it used as a staple? You must show me where you get this info. I can't
tell for sure it is a staple seasoning in Sichuan, but in Fujian it doesn't
appear so, perhaps you meant Guangzhou? In Chinese traditional medicine,
the line between food and medicine can be thinly drawn. Often in our
cuisine, the seasoning and ingredients can be both food and medicine. While
citrus peel is being used in food, it acts both as a seasoning while it
strengthens the spleen and lowers blood cholestrol.

Returning to the sea cucumber, to the Japanese it is a delicacy to be eaten
fresh, but to the Chinese, it is enjoyed as a food, but also to help
pre-mature ejeculation, in a sense, it is both food and medicine.

> >
> > I'm not saying that Chinese have every use for dried stuff from the
> > 'deadside' as a medicine, there are also a lot of which are based in

history
> > and necessity, from a race of people who have witnessed great calamities
> > both man-made and natural for them to make greater use of the food

resource
> > that they have at hand. At least, the deadside preference of Chinese do

not
> > include a large variety of processed food.

>
> And where does Puerh fit in this discussion? Is this another holdover
> from China's less affluent times? More interestingly, is Puerh viewed
> as an anachronism by younger, contemporary Chinese?
>

Pu'er is completely a different story. You mentioned that we have a
preference for the deadside, if tea is from the deadside, then Pu'er as
viewed by you, is of the deadside, but I don't view it that way. From what
I remember when I first read this group's posts on Pu'er, you seem to have a
view that this is not tea, but tea tortured to its last spirit. I've always
wanted to ask you where and how do you come to this opinion, but that thread
was deleted and I couldn't find it.

I remember also you disagreed with Mike Petro on some points of Pu'er as a
tea, but I lost track with the multitude of threads, I only remember some
discussions on cheeses and wines [?] in relation to Pu'er. Can you refresh
me on that one?

To answer your questions, is Pu'er another holdover from China's less
affluent times? The answer is no. It has nothing to do with that portion
of history, but I suspect your bad experiences with Pu'er may have
everything to do with greedy Chinese trying to make quick bucks, turning out
low quality teas...and is Pu'er viewed as an anachronism by younger,
contemporary Chinese? I take it that you meant mainland Chinese, where half
the young population of China knows more about Starbuck than Chinese teas in
general? Then the answer is perhaps yes, but becuase tea in general is
viewed as an anachronism and 'un-western', not just Pu'er. For the rest of
the Chinese around the world, we have the Hongkongers and Taiwanese to
thank, who took the humble Pu'er and turned it into black gold, leaving us
like poor street urchins salivating at the window displays of expensive and
out-of-reach pu'er cakes.

Incidentally, the idea of pu'er as 'the older the better and good to keep
till kingdom comes' is a recent import, post 1980s. Most Yunnan natives
still favour freshly produced Pu'er, most of them keeping it for several
years to allow the tea to wear off its greeness and sharpness.

Many developments of tea-making in history came about from mishaps, and
unintentional. I remember Ripon posted something about the history of red
tea (Keemun? ) in China. I read it and found it incorrect, but it was
deleted and I couldn't locate it to reply him.

Samar


  #52 (permalink)   Report Post  
cc
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"crymad" > wrote in message

> My only real longings living in Japan were oysters and line-caught river
> salmon. Other than that, Japan is a fish paradise. It's sanma season
> now, isn't it, Kuri?


By definition, it's their season.

> I always looked forward to autumn and grilling
> skewered sanma over hardwood charcoal outside.


I had some tonight. I had to make them inside, skewered in the oven...but
I've used a brasero to prepare new rice and matsutake. No leftovers, the
plates and bowls are perfectly cleaned !
It's a good year for fruits in addition. Lots of excellent kakis, nashis
(usually I find them tasteless, but not this year) and wonderful apples for
an old style tart that perfectly matched a Taiwan oolong. My guest promised
me to bring me some more from Taipei ! That's a good trade for me, tarts
versus tea.

Kuri

  #53 (permalink)   Report Post  
crymad
 
Posts: n/a
Default



samarkand wrote:
>
> [not much snippage]
>
> "crymad" > wrote in message
> ...
> > [much snippage]
> >
> > Is preserved food in Chinese cuisine really just a holdover from more
> > rugged times? How do you explain the near absence of fresh black
> > mushrooms (shiitake) in classic Chinese dishes when dried ones are
> > employed extensively?
> >

> If you take a look Chinese cuisine in the recent decades, fresh mushrooms
> are used, especially the straw mushrooms you mentioned. Dried mushrooms
> become abundant in China during the wintry months, but farther south in
> Hainan island, Hongkong, Taiwan, Singapore and Malaysia, fresh shiitake
> mushrooms are available all year round and frequently used in cooking
> instead of the dried version.


Singapore and Malaysia? I think we're veering a little off the map
now. It bears mentioning, though, that while Korea and Japan are much
farther north, fresh shiitake are commonly used in their fresh form.

> Dried mushrooms are still used in certain
> dishes however, because it imparts a stronger flavour, and in my opinion,
> imparts a nicer flavour especially when used mixed with minced pork and
> steamed. Fresh shiitake doesn't give that 'punch'. I believe out of
> necessaity during rugged times, it has evolved into a cuisine preference.
> Another example is steamed fish with dried shiitake. It tastes much better
> than when I use the fresh variety.


In my mind, this desire for "punchiness" is at the heart of the matter,
really. Japanese cuisine emphasizes freshness and delicacy. And the
ideal for tea follows suit.

> What are the classic Chinese dishes that you've eaten using dried shiitake
> recently? And where? Food and location can sometimes reveal interesting
> cultural roots...


In simple soups, Chinese style, here at home, in the US. Sometimes I'll
add dried shiitake to MaPo Tofu.

> >
> > Yes, but dried tangerine peel is by no means limited to medicinal uses
> > in China. It is a staple in Sichuan and Fujian provinces as a
> > seasoning.
> >

> Is it used as a staple? You must show me where you get this info. I can't
> tell for sure it is a staple seasoning in Sichuan, but in Fujian it doesn't
> appear so, perhaps you meant Guangzhou? In Chinese traditional medicine,
> the line between food and medicine can be thinly drawn. Often in our
> cuisine, the seasoning and ingredients can be both food and medicine. While
> citrus peel is being used in food, it acts both as a seasoning while it
> strengthens the spleen and lowers blood cholestrol.


Hmm...now I wonder about your cultural roots. What are they exactly?
Because any Chinese should be familiar with dried tangerine peel.

> >
> > And where does Puerh fit in this discussion? Is this another holdover
> > from China's less affluent times? More interestingly, is Puerh viewed
> > as an anachronism by younger, contemporary Chinese?
> >

> Pu'er is completely a different story. You mentioned that we have a
> preference for the deadside, if tea is from the deadside, then Pu'er as
> viewed by you, is of the deadside, but I don't view it that way. From what
> I remember when I first read this group's posts on Pu'er, you seem to have a
> view that this is not tea, but tea tortured to its last spirit.


"Tortured to its last spirit" -- I do like this. A very poetic way of
putting it.

> I've always
> wanted to ask you where and how do you come to this opinion, but that thread
> was deleted and I couldn't find it.
>
> I remember also you disagreed with Mike Petro on some points of Pu'er as a
> tea, but I lost track with the multitude of threads, I only remember some
> discussions on cheeses and wines [?] in relation to Pu'er. Can you refresh
> me on that one?


I believe the thread had the subject line, "Is Puerh Tea?" You should
be able to locate it at Google groups.

--crymad
  #54 (permalink)   Report Post  
cc
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"crymad" > wrote in message

> Hmm...now I wonder about your cultural roots. What are they exactly?
> Because any Chinese should be familiar with dried tangerine peel.


Like any Japanese should get a stock of dried yuzu peel from Koya-san and
use some daily in shichimi mix ? And in the US, I guess you are familiar
with pemmican (sp ?) and if you didn't have any for breakfast, we can start
doubting you're really posting from there.

Really Crymad, I don't know where you're getting at. It is sure that the
Japanese enjoy abundant supply of all sorts of fresh products, while most
Chinese still can't afford them out of season and survive a part of (if not
all) the year with dried/preserved goods. They just do what they can. I am
not commenting "Chinese cuisine", because that's be like commenting
"Mediterraneano-european cuisine", you'd have to do it region by region and
even separate the different communities in one city.
The Japanese have had most of their meals prepared from dried/preserved food
during hundreds of years, fresh seasonal products were worshipped for they
were exceptional, people only started to change their habit about 70 yrs
ago. And they have not all forgotten the old style. The dried food stands at
my local market still sells in quantity a variety of dried food as large
as in most Chinese medicinal markets I've been to. Other stands have enough
sorts of tsukemono to avoid you the boredom of eating twice the same in one
year. I also love the choice of stock fish and shiokarai.
Probably New Year's osechi-ryori is a good example of how they cooked before
having fridges and, more important, before having roads and trains to
deliver fish to every valley and vegetables to every seaside village. Maybe
that was not your cup of tea, but now that the fascination for fresh
takkyubin is wearing off, soshoku style ("simple meal" that inspired
macrobiotic diet) is getting a revival, and it uses a lot of preserved/dried
goods. Also the different fermented food,lactofermentation, etc, are getting
increasingly popular (so maybe the taste for Puer cha is related to that).
It is the Japanese contribution to the global "slow food" trend. I wouldn't
get much interest for Japanese cooking if that was limited to cutting fresh
ingredients and making a nice presentation.

Later I'll post something about the history of Japanese tea-snacks as that's
more related to this NG, and well "freshness" is certainly not their
strength.

Kuri



  #55 (permalink)   Report Post  
samarkand
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hey Kuri,

You put it more aptly than I can!

:")

It's interesting to know a portion of Japanese cuisine history, am I correct
to say that while Japanese stresses a lot on the freshness of the food, it
also uses a lot of MSG in food preparation?

Samar

"cc" > wrote in message
...
>
> "crymad" > wrote in message
>
>> Hmm...now I wonder about your cultural roots. What are they exactly?
>> Because any Chinese should be familiar with dried tangerine peel.

>
> Like any Japanese should get a stock of dried yuzu peel from Koya-san and
> use some daily in shichimi mix ? And in the US, I guess you are familiar
> with pemmican (sp ?) and if you didn't have any for breakfast, we can
> start
> doubting you're really posting from there.
>
> Really Crymad, I don't know where you're getting at. It is sure that the
> Japanese enjoy abundant supply of all sorts of fresh products, while most
> Chinese still can't afford them out of season and survive a part of (if
> not
> all) the year with dried/preserved goods. They just do what they can. I am
> not commenting "Chinese cuisine", because that's be like commenting
> "Mediterraneano-european cuisine", you'd have to do it region by region
> and
> even separate the different communities in one city.
> The Japanese have had most of their meals prepared from dried/preserved
> food
> during hundreds of years, fresh seasonal products were worshipped for they
> were exceptional, people only started to change their habit about 70 yrs
> ago. And they have not all forgotten the old style. The dried food stands
> at
> my local market still sells in quantity a variety of dried food as large
> as in most Chinese medicinal markets I've been to. Other stands have
> enough
> sorts of tsukemono to avoid you the boredom of eating twice the same in
> one
> year. I also love the choice of stock fish and shiokarai.
> Probably New Year's osechi-ryori is a good example of how they cooked
> before
> having fridges and, more important, before having roads and trains to
> deliver fish to every valley and vegetables to every seaside village.
> Maybe
> that was not your cup of tea, but now that the fascination for fresh
> takkyubin is wearing off, soshoku style ("simple meal" that inspired
> macrobiotic diet) is getting a revival, and it uses a lot of
> preserved/dried
> goods. Also the different fermented food,lactofermentation, etc, are
> getting
> increasingly popular (so maybe the taste for Puer cha is related to that).
> It is the Japanese contribution to the global "slow food" trend. I
> wouldn't
> get much interest for Japanese cooking if that was limited to cutting
> fresh
> ingredients and making a nice presentation.
>
> Later I'll post something about the history of Japanese tea-snacks as
> that's
> more related to this NG, and well "freshness" is certainly not their
> strength.
>
> Kuri
>
>
>





  #56 (permalink)   Report Post  
fLameDogg
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"samarkand" > wrote in news:416bfd38$1
@news.starhub.net.sg:

>> I believe the thread had the subject line, "Is Puerh Tea?" You should
>> be able to locate it at Google groups.
>>

> I shall hunt for it then. But I doubt it's still around though.


Perhaps this?

http://tinyurl.com/5cg3u

(which is)

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...A20E.7A37A75B%
40xprt.net&rnum=2&prev=/groups%3Fsafe%3Dimages%26as_ugroup%
3Drec.food.drink.tea%26as_usubject%3Dis%2520puerh% 2520tea%26lr%3D%26hl%3Den

(I would have posted this link without a wrap but it's *so* long--the
tinyurl will have to do.)
--
fD
  #57 (permalink)   Report Post  
crymad
 
Posts: n/a
Default



cc wrote:
>
> "crymad" > wrote in message
>
> > Hmm...now I wonder about your cultural roots. What are they exactly?
> > Because any Chinese should be familiar with dried tangerine peel.

>
> Like any Japanese should get a stock of dried yuzu peel from Koya-san and
> use some daily in shichimi mix ? And in the US, I guess you are familiar
> with pemmican (sp ?) and if you didn't have any for breakfast, we can start
> doubting you're really posting from there.


Samarkand also seemed puzzled with the mushroom soy reference a few
posts above. Samarkand may in fact be Chinese, but just doesn't cook
much.

> Really Crymad, I don't know where you're getting at.


Well, this thread has kind of drifted off a bit. Originally, it was
about Puerh and how its preserved, aged flavor reminds me of so many
other Chinese foodstuffs.

--crymad
  #58 (permalink)   Report Post  
crymad
 
Posts: n/a
Default



cc wrote:
>
> "crymad" > wrote in message
>
> > Hmm...now I wonder about your cultural roots. What are they exactly?
> > Because any Chinese should be familiar with dried tangerine peel.

>
> Like any Japanese should get a stock of dried yuzu peel from Koya-san and
> use some daily in shichimi mix ? And in the US, I guess you are familiar
> with pemmican (sp ?) and if you didn't have any for breakfast, we can start
> doubting you're really posting from there.


Samarkand also seemed puzzled with the mushroom soy reference a few
posts above. Samarkand may in fact be Chinese, but just doesn't cook
much.

> Really Crymad, I don't know where you're getting at.


Well, this thread has kind of drifted off a bit. Originally, it was
about Puerh and how its preserved, aged flavor reminds me of so many
other Chinese foodstuffs.

--crymad
  #59 (permalink)   Report Post  
crymad
 
Posts: n/a
Default



samarkand wrote:
>
> "crymad" > wrote in message
> ...


[much snipping again]

> > In simple soups, Chinese style, here at home, in the US. Sometimes I'll
> > add dried shiitake to MaPo Tofu.
> >

> Simple soups? Chinese soups are not simple


Not all, of course. I'm talking homestyle food, much like this:

http://recipes.chef2chef.net/recipe-...7/049247.shtml

....rather than something grand and special like this most famous dish
from Fujian:

http://www.shme.com/dish/dish085.htm


>...is there a difference if you
> add fresh shiitake mushrooms to MaPo Tofu? Waitaminit! I don't think
> mushroom is an ingredient in the original recipe! Does it taste better with
> mushrooms or without?


Using dried mushrooms is just a variation, a quite tasty one. With the
strong flavors in this dish, fresh mushrooms would be simply lost in the
din.

> >
> > Hmm...now I wonder about your cultural roots. What are they exactly?
> > Because any Chinese should be familiar with dried tangerine peel.

>
> Haha, before you verify my cultural roots, you'll have to verify your
> statement about tangerine peel as a staple food in Chinese cuisine.
> Guangdong cuisine uses tangerine peel often in dessert dishes and medicinal
> food preparation, seldom as a common staple. The northern cuisine uses it
> even less. Sichuan cuisine uses it most perhaps, especially in spicy
> dishes. Just as Japan will have its various provincial cuisine, so does
> Chinese. You cannot be generalising it now, can you?


No, of course it's not used everywhere. But a Chinese should be
familiar with its existence. Now, won't you tell us about your cultural
origin?

> >
> > "Tortured to its last spirit" -- I do like this. A very poetic way of
> > putting it.
> >

> Hey, I thought that was your line...no?


No, but I promise to steal it. Appropriate it. Umm...deconstruct it.
Yeah, that's it.

--crymad
  #60 (permalink)   Report Post  
crymad
 
Posts: n/a
Default



samarkand wrote:
>
> "crymad" > wrote in message
> ...


[much snipping again]

> > In simple soups, Chinese style, here at home, in the US. Sometimes I'll
> > add dried shiitake to MaPo Tofu.
> >

> Simple soups? Chinese soups are not simple


Not all, of course. I'm talking homestyle food, much like this:

http://recipes.chef2chef.net/recipe-...7/049247.shtml

....rather than something grand and special like this most famous dish
from Fujian:

http://www.shme.com/dish/dish085.htm


>...is there a difference if you
> add fresh shiitake mushrooms to MaPo Tofu? Waitaminit! I don't think
> mushroom is an ingredient in the original recipe! Does it taste better with
> mushrooms or without?


Using dried mushrooms is just a variation, a quite tasty one. With the
strong flavors in this dish, fresh mushrooms would be simply lost in the
din.

> >
> > Hmm...now I wonder about your cultural roots. What are they exactly?
> > Because any Chinese should be familiar with dried tangerine peel.

>
> Haha, before you verify my cultural roots, you'll have to verify your
> statement about tangerine peel as a staple food in Chinese cuisine.
> Guangdong cuisine uses tangerine peel often in dessert dishes and medicinal
> food preparation, seldom as a common staple. The northern cuisine uses it
> even less. Sichuan cuisine uses it most perhaps, especially in spicy
> dishes. Just as Japan will have its various provincial cuisine, so does
> Chinese. You cannot be generalising it now, can you?


No, of course it's not used everywhere. But a Chinese should be
familiar with its existence. Now, won't you tell us about your cultural
origin?

> >
> > "Tortured to its last spirit" -- I do like this. A very poetic way of
> > putting it.
> >

> Hey, I thought that was your line...no?


No, but I promise to steal it. Appropriate it. Umm...deconstruct it.
Yeah, that's it.

--crymad


  #61 (permalink)   Report Post  
Alex Chaihorsky
 
Posts: n/a
Default

> I can remember the one time I
> had sushi in America (Ike-no-Hana, somewhere around San Jose) that was in
> the same league as the better Japanese offerings.


Zono Sushi in SJ. Oh, dear me....
Hmm... how long it would take me to get there if I leave Reno right away?

Sasha.


  #62 (permalink)   Report Post  
samarkand
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"crymad" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> cc wrote:
>>
>> "crymad" > wrote in message
>>
>> > Hmm...now I wonder about your cultural roots. What are they exactly?
>> > Because any Chinese should be familiar with dried tangerine peel.

>>
>> Like any Japanese should get a stock of dried yuzu peel from Koya-san and
>> use some daily in shichimi mix ? And in the US, I guess you are familiar
>> with pemmican (sp ?) and if you didn't have any for breakfast, we can
>> start
>> doubting you're really posting from there.

>
> Samarkand also seemed puzzled with the mushroom soy reference a few
> posts above. Samarkand may in fact be Chinese, but just doesn't cook
> much.
>


Samarkand does, but there's is no straw mushroom soy sauce in chinese
cooking, not that I know of.

I don't assume I know every soy sauce available in the market, but I think
you are going too far in assuming that I do not cook or that I MAY only be
Chinese just because I'm not familiar with a type of soy sauce that you can
find in wherever you are. I believe I have been quite civil in replying to
your queries, please don't make me think you are just a loud mouth westerner
who has a larger than life image of himself and the culture he basks in, and
poorly of others.

You are correct that we have strayed too far from the subject, so I shall
not continue further.

>> Really Crymad, I don't know where you're getting at.

>
> Well, this thread has kind of drifted off a bit. Originally, it was
> about Puerh and how its preserved, aged flavor reminds me of so many
> other Chinese foodstuffs.
>
> --crymad



  #63 (permalink)   Report Post  
samarkand
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"crymad" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> cc wrote:
>>
>> "crymad" > wrote in message
>>
>> > Hmm...now I wonder about your cultural roots. What are they exactly?
>> > Because any Chinese should be familiar with dried tangerine peel.

>>
>> Like any Japanese should get a stock of dried yuzu peel from Koya-san and
>> use some daily in shichimi mix ? And in the US, I guess you are familiar
>> with pemmican (sp ?) and if you didn't have any for breakfast, we can
>> start
>> doubting you're really posting from there.

>
> Samarkand also seemed puzzled with the mushroom soy reference a few
> posts above. Samarkand may in fact be Chinese, but just doesn't cook
> much.
>


Samarkand does, but there's is no straw mushroom soy sauce in chinese
cooking, not that I know of.

I don't assume I know every soy sauce available in the market, but I think
you are going too far in assuming that I do not cook or that I MAY only be
Chinese just because I'm not familiar with a type of soy sauce that you can
find in wherever you are. I believe I have been quite civil in replying to
your queries, please don't make me think you are just a loud mouth westerner
who has a larger than life image of himself and the culture he basks in, and
poorly of others.

You are correct that we have strayed too far from the subject, so I shall
not continue further.

>> Really Crymad, I don't know where you're getting at.

>
> Well, this thread has kind of drifted off a bit. Originally, it was
> about Puerh and how its preserved, aged flavor reminds me of so many
> other Chinese foodstuffs.
>
> --crymad



  #64 (permalink)   Report Post  
Space Cowboy
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Okay you Asian Iron Chefs what is that dry yellow blob in moon cakes?
My favorite Chinese greasy spoon Buck-A-Scoop. You get to pick from
10 stir frys, noodles,rice,soup,pot stickers only a George Washington
for each. Mainly carry out but some tables. Our latest sushi trend
McSushi. Instead of bars and chefs it is house saki + prepared for a
buck each ala dim sum. I wished I could find two places like this
next to each other.

Jim

crymad > wrote in message >...
> cc wrote:
>
> > Really Crymad, I don't know where you're getting at.

>
> Well, this thread has kind of drifted off a bit. Originally, it was
> about Puerh and how its preserved, aged flavor reminds me of so many
> other Chinese foodstuffs.
>
> --crymad

  #65 (permalink)   Report Post  
Space Cowboy
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Okay you Asian Iron Chefs what is that dry yellow blob in moon cakes?
My favorite Chinese greasy spoon Buck-A-Scoop. You get to pick from
10 stir frys, noodles,rice,soup,pot stickers only a George Washington
for each. Mainly carry out but some tables. Our latest sushi trend
McSushi. Instead of bars and chefs it is house saki + prepared for a
buck each ala dim sum. I wished I could find two places like this
next to each other.

Jim

crymad > wrote in message >...
> cc wrote:
>
> > Really Crymad, I don't know where you're getting at.

>
> Well, this thread has kind of drifted off a bit. Originally, it was
> about Puerh and how its preserved, aged flavor reminds me of so many
> other Chinese foodstuffs.
>
> --crymad



  #68 (permalink)   Report Post  
crymad
 
Posts: n/a
Default



samarkand wrote:
>
> "crymad" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Samarkand also seemed puzzled with the mushroom soy reference a few
> > posts above. Samarkand may in fact be Chinese, but just doesn't cook
> > much.
> >

>
> Samarkand does, but there's is no straw mushroom soy sauce in chinese
> cooking, not that I know of.
>


Here's a supplier in China, with all the contact information:

http://camill.en.alibaba.com/product.../50040633.html

Your email address suggests you live in the UK. If so, you can find
mushroom soy at Hoo Hing:

http://www.hoohing.com/acatalog/Prod...auces_222.html

> I don't assume I know every soy sauce available in the market, but I think
> you are going too far in assuming that I do not cook or that I MAY only be
> Chinese just because I'm not familiar with a type of soy sauce that you can
> find in wherever you are. I believe I have been quite civil in replying to
> your queries, please don't make me think you are just a loud mouth westerner
> who has a larger than life image of himself and the culture he basks in, and
> poorly of others.


You're overreacting a bit now. I asked you repeatedly about your
cultural origins, but you remained coy. Speculation using the clues you
provided was the only option, really.

--crymad
  #69 (permalink)   Report Post  
crymad
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Space Cowboy wrote:
>
> Okay you Asian Iron Chefs what is that dry yellow blob in moon cakes?


Here you go, from the same enterprise that brings you that chinese
staple, mushroom soy:

http://camill.en.alibaba.com/product...oon_Cakes.html

I'm sure Mr. Ge or Ms. Zhu Jianhon can answer all your questions.

--crymad
  #70 (permalink)   Report Post  
crymad
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Space Cowboy wrote:
>
> Okay you Asian Iron Chefs what is that dry yellow blob in moon cakes?


Here you go, from the same enterprise that brings you that chinese
staple, mushroom soy:

http://camill.en.alibaba.com/product...oon_Cakes.html

I'm sure Mr. Ge or Ms. Zhu Jianhon can answer all your questions.

--crymad


  #73 (permalink)   Report Post  
Tea
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I don't think the rice is stinky- but Pu-erh is stinky. It makes me feel
better when I have a cold, but it still tastes and smells like poo. Having a
respect for many aspects of Asian culture (I'm not Asian) doesn't stop me
from thinking that Pu-erh is stinky, that natto is like snot and smells
worse, and that I'd probably rather eat ground glass than kimchee.

Sometimes I think crymad is so busy showing that he's the only Westerner who
truly understands the 'mysterious' East that he doesn't realize it lost its
mystery for a lot of us long ago. Wanting to learn more about a various
cultures and their histories isn't the same as treating cultures like they
have all the answers. The BF used to do English Civil War reenactments and
revered aspects of the period, but he wasn't crazy enough to want to build a
time machine and live in the real Britain of that period, anymore than
practicing kendo and eating sushi makes him wish he could have been a ronin.
"samarkand" > wrote in message
...
> I hope you meant Chinese rice wine and not Chinese rice? Soy sauce

doesn't
> stink heaven high, fish sauce does the job better. Soy sauce stinks
> terribly while fermenting, but the end product can make the food taste
> better. I'm not sure how many types of soy sauce Japanese have in their
> cuisine, I'm always baffled by the soy sauce for the sushi and the tempura
> and many others, but in Chinese cuisine, we have more than 4 types, and

some
> soy sauce can be sweet instead of salty, so I wonder to which soy sauce

the
> self-respecting Japanese considers stinky?
>
> Samar
>
> "crymad" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > cc wrote:
> > >
> > > "crymad" > wrote in message
> > >
> > > > I'd be interested to learn Kuri's impressions of Puerh drinking in
> > > > Japan. Not because I place greater faith in the good taste of the
> > > > Japanese when it comes to tea, but simply because I think non-Asians

> are
> > > > overly respectful and hesitant to voice criticism for fear of

> insulting
> > > > the mysterious East's rich cultural heritage.
> > >
> > > And you think you'll find many Japanese to voice criticism on
> > > holy-saint-Chinese-tea ? That's not their style.

> >
> > Oh, you give them too much credit. Any self-respecting Japanese knows
> > Chinese rice and soy sauce stinks to high heaven. Why should tea get
> > special treatment?
> >

>
>



  #74 (permalink)   Report Post  
Alex Chaihorsky
 
Posts: n/a
Default

This is quite simple. There are individuals who understand the way people
get insulted and there are ones that do not. Usually its their parents who
were the same way and never wanted to improve.
I have seen people who would look at their companion's plate in the
restaurant and say - this is awful, how can you eat that? And they do not
mean anything insulting, they just were never brought up the proper way.
They would also stare at a paraplegic person, pick their nose in public and
belch when they have eaten enough. Yes, they probably understand the
improperness of passing wind in the presence of others, but that is as far
as their upbringing goes.
The simple rule that you never use the words "stink, awful, yuk, etc"
speaking about food that others eat and admire, never call "ugly, awful or
terrible" things that people wear - is too sophisticated for them. There are
many ways to express your personal rejections for certain foods, styles and
many other things - you can say that this scent is a bit too rough for you,
that you have never developed a taste, etc. But their childish minds find it
easier to just compare things they do not like to snot and poo.

Sasha.



"Tea" > wrote in message
...
>I don't think the rice is stinky- but Pu-erh is stinky. It makes me feel
> better when I have a cold, but it still tastes and smells like poo. Having
> a
> respect for many aspects of Asian culture (I'm not Asian) doesn't stop me
> from thinking that Pu-erh is stinky, that natto is like snot and smells
> worse, and that I'd probably rather eat ground glass than kimchee.
>
> Sometimes I think crymad is so busy showing that he's the only Westerner
> who
> truly understands the 'mysterious' East that he doesn't realize it lost
> its
> mystery for a lot of us long ago. Wanting to learn more about a various
> cultures and their histories isn't the same as treating cultures like they
> have all the answers. The BF used to do English Civil War reenactments
> and
> revered aspects of the period, but he wasn't crazy enough to want to build
> a
> time machine and live in the real Britain of that period, anymore than
> practicing kendo and eating sushi makes him wish he could have been a
> ronin.
> "samarkand" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I hope you meant Chinese rice wine and not Chinese rice? Soy sauce

> doesn't
>> stink heaven high, fish sauce does the job better. Soy sauce stinks
>> terribly while fermenting, but the end product can make the food taste
>> better. I'm not sure how many types of soy sauce Japanese have in their
>> cuisine, I'm always baffled by the soy sauce for the sushi and the
>> tempura
>> and many others, but in Chinese cuisine, we have more than 4 types, and

> some
>> soy sauce can be sweet instead of salty, so I wonder to which soy sauce

> the
>> self-respecting Japanese considers stinky?
>>
>> Samar
>>
>> "crymad" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> >
>> > cc wrote:
>> > >
>> > > "crymad" > wrote in message
>> > >
>> > > > I'd be interested to learn Kuri's impressions of Puerh drinking in
>> > > > Japan. Not because I place greater faith in the good taste of the
>> > > > Japanese when it comes to tea, but simply because I think
>> > > > non-Asians

>> are
>> > > > overly respectful and hesitant to voice criticism for fear of

>> insulting
>> > > > the mysterious East's rich cultural heritage.
>> > >
>> > > And you think you'll find many Japanese to voice criticism on
>> > > holy-saint-Chinese-tea ? That's not their style.
>> >
>> > Oh, you give them too much credit. Any self-respecting Japanese knows
>> > Chinese rice and soy sauce stinks to high heaven. Why should tea get
>> > special treatment?
>> >

>>
>>

>
>



  #76 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Plant
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Alex igy.com10/14/04

Sasha, not so simple, I think. "Common" courtesy is surely not common, but
what it means is culture specific, not universal. When we say Pu-erh -- or
Durian, for that matter -- is stinky, we speak affectionately, right guys?

Michael



> This is quite simple. There are individuals who understand the way people
> get insulted and there are ones that do not. Usually its their parents who
> were the same way and never wanted to improve.
> I have seen people who would look at their companion's plate in the
> restaurant and say - this is awful, how can you eat that? And they do not
> mean anything insulting, they just were never brought up the proper way.
> They would also stare at a paraplegic person, pick their nose in public and
> belch when they have eaten enough. Yes, they probably understand the
> improperness of passing wind in the presence of others, but that is as far
> as their upbringing goes.
> The simple rule that you never use the words "stink, awful, yuk, etc"
> speaking about food that others eat and admire, never call "ugly, awful or
> terrible" things that people wear - is too sophisticated for them. There are
> many ways to express your personal rejections for certain foods, styles and
> many other things - you can say that this scent is a bit too rough for you,
> that you have never developed a taste, etc. But their childish minds find it
> easier to just compare things they do not like to snot and poo.
>
> Sasha.



  #77 (permalink)   Report Post  
Alex Chaihorsky
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Michael Plant" > wrote in message
...
> Alex igy.com10/14/04
>
> Sasha, not so simple, I think. "Common" courtesy is surely not common, but
> what it means is culture specific, not universal. When we say Pu-erh -- or
> Durian, for that matter -- is stinky, we speak affectionately, right guys?


Michael, I appreciate your diplomatic stance, but no, this is not about
liking or not liking things - which would qualify as culture specific.
Saying that "Having a respect for many aspects of Asian culture (I'm not
Asian) doesn't stop me from thinking that Pu-erh is stinky, that natto is
like snot and smells worse, and that I'd probably rather eat ground glass
than kimchee." is not "affectionate" and you know that.
And not calling what others eat "snot" is a universal "common" courtesy, to
put it mildly.

Sasha.


  #78 (permalink)   Report Post  
Alex Chaihorsky
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Michael Plant" > wrote in message
...
> Alex igy.com10/14/04
>
> Sasha, not so simple, I think. "Common" courtesy is surely not common, but
> what it means is culture specific, not universal. When we say Pu-erh -- or
> Durian, for that matter -- is stinky, we speak affectionately, right guys?


Michael, I appreciate your diplomatic stance, but no, this is not about
liking or not liking things - which would qualify as culture specific.
Saying that "Having a respect for many aspects of Asian culture (I'm not
Asian) doesn't stop me from thinking that Pu-erh is stinky, that natto is
like snot and smells worse, and that I'd probably rather eat ground glass
than kimchee." is not "affectionate" and you know that.
And not calling what others eat "snot" is a universal "common" courtesy, to
put it mildly.

Sasha.


  #79 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Plant
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Alex y.com10/14/04


>
> "Michael Plant" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Alex igy.com10/14/04
>>
>> Sasha, not so simple, I think. "Common" courtesy is surely not common, but
>> what it means is culture specific, not universal. When we say Pu-erh -- or
>> Durian, for that matter -- is stinky, we speak affectionately, right guys?

>
> Michael, I appreciate your diplomatic stance, but no, this is not about
> liking or not liking things - which would qualify as culture specific.
> Saying that "Having a respect for many aspects of Asian culture (I'm not
> Asian) doesn't stop me from thinking that Pu-erh is stinky, that natto is
> like snot and smells worse, and that I'd probably rather eat ground glass
> than kimchee." is not "affectionate" and you know that.
> And not calling what others eat "snot" is a universal "common" courtesy, to
> put it mildly.
>
> Sasha.


Admittedly, that would be quite a stretch of the cultural warp. Point well
taken. But, in a broader sense, I think how we express our likes and
dislikes can be as culture specific as the likes and dislikes we express.
JMESHO. (When I typed my post, I was thinking of some durian loving Chinese
friends who referr to it as "stinky fruit," and my own feeling about Pu-erh,
which can be many things, not all of them pleasant, but always an adventure
and a journey worth taking.

Michael


  #80 (permalink)   Report Post  
Michael Plant
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Alex y.com10/14/04


>
> "Michael Plant" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Alex igy.com10/14/04
>>
>> Sasha, not so simple, I think. "Common" courtesy is surely not common, but
>> what it means is culture specific, not universal. When we say Pu-erh -- or
>> Durian, for that matter -- is stinky, we speak affectionately, right guys?

>
> Michael, I appreciate your diplomatic stance, but no, this is not about
> liking or not liking things - which would qualify as culture specific.
> Saying that "Having a respect for many aspects of Asian culture (I'm not
> Asian) doesn't stop me from thinking that Pu-erh is stinky, that natto is
> like snot and smells worse, and that I'd probably rather eat ground glass
> than kimchee." is not "affectionate" and you know that.
> And not calling what others eat "snot" is a universal "common" courtesy, to
> put it mildly.
>
> Sasha.


Admittedly, that would be quite a stretch of the cultural warp. Point well
taken. But, in a broader sense, I think how we express our likes and
dislikes can be as culture specific as the likes and dislikes we express.
JMESHO. (When I typed my post, I was thinking of some durian loving Chinese
friends who referr to it as "stinky fruit," and my own feeling about Pu-erh,
which can be many things, not all of them pleasant, but always an adventure
and a journey worth taking.

Michael




Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:09 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 FoodBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Food and drink"