After donning my flame proof suite I pose this question:

Is it desirable to post vendor and/or specific tea reviews, assuming
that it is a legitimate review and not a shill?

On one hand we have those that vehemently abhor anything that
resembles an advertisement or even a personal experience. On the other
hand there are those of us who like to share experiences about the
vendors we have dealt with.

This is an un-moderated group. I have looked in the group's charter
and it does not prohibit personal reviews in any way. Here is the
charter for those who are interested:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=rf...au.dk&rn um=1

I wholeheartedly agree that we should never allow commercial interests
to take over this group. Blatant advertisements and shills should be
severely admonished. However I also feel that there is absolutely
nothing wrong with sharing our experiences in acquiring our passion. I
feel that even Vendor's can contribute as long as they remain
objective and do not try to push anything. However this is a very fine
line that few can navigate without alienating the group.

I live in a rather rural area of the US. I am 60 miles from the
nearest interstate and several hundred miles from the nearest Chinese
apothecary. I am forced to rely on Internet/mail order for most
pleasures in life. As expensive as good tea can be I find myself
paying attention to what the more trusted members of the group have to
say about their purchase from vendor XYZ. Buying tea via mail order or
Internet is always a gamble so it helps to know what other people have
gone through. I personally find these revelations to be indispensable;
I believe it saves me from making some bad purchases.

This has come up quite a bit lately and I really would like to know
the "Groups" opinion.

Mike Petro

While I certainly don't want to increase vendor advertising, I would like to
hear what others have to say about specific vendors and products, especially e
vendors.

I mean, the two things that we know that we have in common are internet access
and a love of teas.

It is through this group that I found several new online vendors, not to
mention the Big Apple Teahouse.

>Subject: Vendor Experiences
>From: Mike Petro
>Date: 2/10/2004 10:51 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>After donning my flame proof suite I pose this question:
>
>Is it desirable to post vendor and/or specific tea reviews, assuming
>that it is a legitimate review and not a shill?
>
>On one hand we have those that vehemently abhor anything that
>resembles an advertisement or even a personal experience. On the other
>hand there are those of us who like to share experiences about the
>vendors we have dealt with.
>
>This is an un-moderated group. I have looked in the group's charter
>and it does not prohibit personal reviews in any way. Here is the
>charter for those who are interested:
>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?q=rf...e=UTF-8&oe=UTF
-8&selm=8mrbas%241gcfd%241%40gjallar.daimi.au.dk&rn um=1
>
>I wholeheartedly agree that we should never allow commercial interests
>to take over this group. Blatant advertisements and shills should be
>severely admonished. However I also feel that there is absolutely
>nothing wrong with sharing our experiences in acquiring our passion. I
>feel that even Vendor's can contribute as long as they remain
>objective and do not try to push anything. However this is a very fine
>line that few can navigate without alienating the group.
>
>I live in a rather rural area of the US. I am 60 miles from the
>nearest interstate and several hundred miles from the nearest Chinese
>apothecary. I am forced to rely on Internet/mail order for most
>pleasures in life. As expensive as good tea can be I find myself
>paying attention to what the more trusted members of the group have to
>say about their purchase from vendor XYZ. Buying tea via mail order or
>Internet is always a gamble so it helps to know what other people have
>gone through. I personally find these revelations to be indispensable;
>I believe it saves me from making some bad purchases.
>
>This has come up quite a bit lately and I really would like to know
>the "Groups" opinion.
>
>Mike Petro
>
>
>
>
>
>


--Tom
-oo-
""\o~
------------------------------------
"Homo sum, humani nil a me alienum puto."
Terrance

Mike 2/10/04


> After donning my flame proof suite I pose this question:
>
> Is it desirable to post vendor and/or specific tea reviews, assuming
> that it is a legitimate review and not a shill?

Mike, it is not only appropriate it is helpful and expected by many. The
occasional forays into actual discussion regarding specirfic teas are a high
point for me. Seriously, most of us welcome specific references to specific
teas provided by specific vendors. The more specific, the more value.

> I wholeheartedly agree that we should never allow commercial interests
> to take over this group. Blatant advertisements and shills should be
> severely admonished. However I also feel that there is absolutely
> nothing wrong with sharing our experiences in acquiring our passion. I
> feel that even Vendor's can contribute as long as they remain
> objective and do not try to push anything. However this is a very fine
> line that few can navigate without alienating the group.

I'm seldom bothered by a vendor's self-reference and disagree with those who
find vendor's mention of their own sites and wares offensive. I can flip to
a URL and make up my own mind. Just don't want to see a steady stream.
>
snip


> I personally find these revelations to be indispensable;
> I believe it saves me from making some bad purchases.

Me too.
>
> This has come up quite a bit lately and I really would like to know
> the "Groups" opinion.

Can't speak for the group, but that's my opinion. BTW, I'm engaged in dialog
with several vendors whose existence I only knew of through this group. Some
vendors I'm convinced come to tea for the love of it, not (solely) for the
money.

Michael

"Michael Plant" > wrote in message
...
> Mike 2/10/04
>
>
[snip]
> Can't speak for the group, but that's my opinion. BTW, I'm engaged in
dialog
> with several vendors whose existence I only knew of through this group.
Some
> vendors I'm convinced come to tea for the love of it, not (solely) for the
> money.
>

FWIW, I'm in complete agreement. I'm indebted to Michael for referring me
to a vendor that otherwise I might never have found.

I'm also of the opinion that those in the tea business can provide a unique
perspective no one else can. No one here is interested in a lot of blatant
self-promotion, but clearly those whose business brings them in contact with
importers and the gardens themselves have a lot of valuable insights to
offer.

Regards,
Dean

> Michael
>

Mike Petro > writes:

> After donning my flame proof suite I pose this question:
>
> Is it desirable to post vendor and/or specific tea reviews, assuming
> that it is a legitimate review and not a shill?

I sure think so. I promise to read any review you post!

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:51:40 -0500, in article
>, Mike Petro wrote:

> Is it desirable to post vendor and/or specific tea reviews, assuming
> that it is a legitimate review and not a shill?

Certainly.

> On one hand we have those that vehemently abhor anything that
> resembles an advertisement or even a personal experience.

I am one of those; advertisers should purchase legitimate advertising,
shills should lose their internet access, and spammers should go to jail.

Unforunately, if you post enough (legitimate) reviews, eventually someone
will complain about something.

> I have looked in the group's charter
> and it does not prohibit personal reviews in any way.

There you have it.

> This has come up quite a bit lately and I really would like to know
> the "Groups" opinion.

The group denies me authority to speak for it, but if you're offering
reviews, I say: Review away.

While intrepidly exploring rec.food.drink.tea, Hamilcar Barca
rolled initiative and posted the following:

> Unforunately, if you post enough (legitimate) reviews,
> eventually someone will complain about something.

"I object to that characterization!" he exlaimed with a smirk.

--
Derek

While good fortune often eludes you, misfortune never misses.

Hi group,

First, I must say that over the years I have found some absolutely wonderful
teas discussed here. It's what I have most gotten out of this ng. Without
all of you, I never would have ventured into an Indian market and gotten my
first box of Lipton Yellow Label.

Just a quick suggestion: Why not include VE in the main subject line of the
post. Those that can't stand to read such can safely avoid or filter it,
and the rest of us can learn from one another.

Cheers,
Christina

All I can say about the success of tea reviewers thank god they
eventually go away. You can join the ranks of Allegorical Anodyne or
Analytical Alan or others who have nothing more to say than taste
great and worth every penny with the occasional critique you can buy
it cheaper elsewhere or if you didn't like the taste it was nothing
more than your own idiosyncratic personality tastebuds lubricated from
watching Paris Hilton milk a cow. If it were me I'd start a BLOG
where people have to surf to what I say and based on some arbitrary
timeline like brewing a pot of tea it might be picked up by some media
outlet because they are the Internet fin de la semana rage on the
media shows with the emphasis on individual opinion contradicting
polling surveys. As for the shill make sure we get some free samples
too. People don't have too much to say if they don't mention how much
it cost or where they bought it.

Jim

Mike Petro > wrote in message >. ..
> After donning my flame proof suite I pose this question:
>
> Is it desirable to post vendor and/or specific tea reviews, assuming
> that it is a legitimate review and not a shill?

I know the exact feeling of trepidation and elation. Everytime I go I
spend some time with the proprietor because they're just as curious
about you. Still the scariest stores are the Russians.

Jim

"Christeana M" > wrote in message nk.net>...
> Hi group,
>
> First, I must say that over the years I have found some absolutely wonderful
> teas discussed here. It's what I have most gotten out of this ng. Without
> all of you, I never would have ventured into an Indian market and gotten my
> first box of Lipton Yellow Label.

>All I can say about the success of tea reviewers thank god they
>eventually go away. <snip>

Well, I guess not everybody would be glad to see more reviews.

As far as I'm concerned, bring 'em on, happy to read.

Joe

Any heading protocol that distinguishes thread types makes life easier for
readers of an active group. And makes it more pleasant for those who dislike
a topic - it's easy enough to set filters to discard incoming notes on a
disfavored topic - or leave them on the server. So I think it's a fine idea.
We could add several more categories as well, like reviews of tea houses (as
distinct from leaf vendors), travel suggestions, chemistry and technology,
whatever some subset especially doesn't like.

Me, I find most value in reviews of tea sub-varieties, which seem to come
naturally with vendor reviews. I also find the "prismatic luminescence"
(Herb Caen phrase anent wine writing) language un-useful, but maybe there's
no better. On the other hand, there's been some impressive work on educating
both palates and vocabularies. See, for example:

http://wineserver.ucdavis.edu/Acnoble/waw.html

http://www.winepros.org/wine101/sensory_guide.htm

http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/scienc...the_senses.htm

I'm hoping to get a group together around Boston to set up and try the Ann
Noble flavor-wheel game. Has anyone done something similar with tea
taste/smell?

-DM

> Why not include VE in the main subject line of the post.

I realized I can solve the advertising problem in this group. I have
a process where my virus software runs a Google scan of
Rec.Food.Drink.Tea and set a rule that every WWW url it encounters is
an infected site and produce a list which can then update my browsers
prohibited websites. Nothing worse than surfing the net and
accidently running into one of the joints. It's the same rule set
that can prohibit your youngsters from using Usenet to find
pornographic sites. So instead of delineating terms like "sex with
dogs" I can use "my personal favorite" and feel perfectly confortable
in recommending them to any buyer in the group because of at least one
past acclimation by some dufus. There are no tallies so the WWW
personal esteem urls of infatuated consumers who can't wait for the
UPS man to ring the doorbell are only counted once. So all websites
are only listed once and in random order so there is no beginning or
ending to the list and one can't say any website is better than the
other except to say they were recommended at least once which means
somebody else took the plunge and you can blame them for Credit Card
hassles because the package never arrived and you never print the
Order Confirmation page with the tracking number of the mystery
delivery service and the website says forward all order problems to
the sales department email address which then bounces. You realize
their Shopping Cart software never fails so you place a minimum order
of one ounce of their cheapest tea with the minimum $10 shipping
charge and tell them your order problem in the Comments box which is
limited to 50 characters so you may do this several times depending on
the extent of the problem. I'm telling you this can work. You can
spend more time discussing tea than letting us know the last order
arrived safely.

Jim

Ahh, the Curmudgeon has spoken, and I expected no less. Isn't this a
great medium where everyone can express their opinion!

Incidentally I agree with you about doing something BLOG like, but I
didn't fully understand your "week end" comment. I will probably just
add a personal review section to my website, then those who are
interested, and it appears that there are a few, can simply browse to
it. Or maybe, after I am able to practice repeatable objectivity, I
can contribute to the review site that already exists, why reinvent
the wheel, right?

However, I will still share, and promote the sharing of, vendor
critiques in this form because it appears that many of us find them
valuable. You of course have the option to plonk the threads that
distress you. I am curious though, why are you so against someone
expressing an opinion about a vendor?

Actually Jim, I would truly love to share a pot of tea with you one
day. You can be quite eloquent at times, in addition to being very (if
not overly) opinionated.

Mike


On 12 Feb 2004 07:34:44 -0800, (Space Cowboy)
cast caution to the wind and posted:

>All I can say about the success of tea reviewers thank god they
>eventually go away. You can join the ranks of Allegorical Anodyne or
>Analytical Alan or others who have nothing more to say than taste
>great and worth every penny with the occasional critique you can buy
>it cheaper elsewhere or if you didn't like the taste it was nothing
>more than your own idiosyncratic personality tastebuds lubricated from
>watching Paris Hilton milk a cow. If it were me I'd start a BLOG
>where people have to surf to what I say and based on some arbitrary
>timeline like brewing a pot of tea it might be picked up by some media
>outlet because they are the Internet fin de la semana rage on the
>media shows with the emphasis on individual opinion contradicting
>polling surveys. As for the shill make sure we get some free samples
>too. People don't have too much to say if they don't mention how much
>it cost or where they bought it.
>
>Jim
>
>Mike Petro > wrote in message >. ..
>> After donning my flame proof suite I pose this question:
>>
>> Is it desirable to post vendor and/or specific tea reviews, assuming
>> that it is a legitimate review and not a shill?

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 05:39:08 GMT, in article
nk.net>, Christeana M
wrote:

> First, I must say that over the years I have found some absolutely wonderful
> teas discussed here. It's what I have most gotten out of this ng. Without
> all of you, I never would have ventured into an Indian market and gotten my
> first box of Lipton Yellow Label.

I got my start with the rec.food.drink.tea FAQ -- thank you, Mr.
Christopher Roberson and other contributors. Then I subscribed to
rec.food.drink.tea. It's a good newsgroup and a good peoplegroup.

> Just a quick suggestion: Why not include VE in the main subject line of the
> post. Those that can't stand to read such can safely avoid or filter it,
> and the rest of us can learn from one another.

Is there really a problem with (any) reviews here?

Isn't the real, but occasional, problem the fraudulent review by shills?

On 12 Feb 2004 07:34:44 -0800, in article
. com>, Space Cowboy wrote:

> All I can say about the success of tea reviewers thank god they
> eventually go away. You can join the ranks of Allegorical Anodyne or
> Analytical Alan or others who have nothing more to say than taste
> great and worth every penny with the occasional critique you can buy
> it cheaper elsewhere or if you didn't like the taste it was nothing
> more than your own idiosyncratic personality tastebuds lubricated from
> watching Paris Hilton milk a cow. If it were me I'd start a BLOG
> where people have to surf to what I say and based on some arbitrary
> timeline like brewing a pot of tea it might be picked up by some media
> outlet because they are the Internet fin de la semana rage on the
> media shows with the emphasis on individual opinion contradicting
> polling surveys. As for the shill make sure we get some free samples
> too. People don't have too much to say if they don't mention how much
> it cost or where they bought it.

I'd be glad to help you fill out the form

[ ] In favor of reviews
[ ] Opposed to reviews
[X] Undecided

>> All I can say about the success of tea reviewers thank god they
>> eventually go away. You can join the ranks of Allegorical Anodyne or
>> Analytical Alan or others who have nothing more to say than taste
>> great and worth every penny....
>>
>> Jim

I believe many of you joined us after Anodyne and Alan left. For you newer
guys, then: Holly (known as Anodyne) is a sensitive and thorough observer
and tea drinker with a keen and fanciful poetic sense whose musings
integrate tea and life. She is an excellent writer and an engaging person
and one of the most knowledgeable around, her knowledge derived from
personal experience which she freely shares now elsewhere. She apparently
committed the mortal sin of decency and was inevitably "driven* away by mean
spiritedness.

Alan is a bit of a "scientist" bent on tea tasting uniformity. His
vocabulary, while stayed and standardized is true to itself and worthy of
note for its consistency. Those interested in attempting objective
comparisons among teas could do a lot worse than pulling up some of Alan's
old reviews just to see his approach, which I admit is not mine, try as I
might. He shares the sin of decency though, and had to be expunged from our
little community, a difficult task indeed, but persistent meanness and
unrelenting personal attacks did the trick.

When do tea comments turn into tea reviews? Beats me. Maybe we should all
pack up our tea stuff and go home.

Michael

I completely lost the thread from the person who recently asked about tea
tasting methods for consistency and/or appropriate equipment. I hereby
unabashedly throw pride aside and provide the following page from Teacraft,
Nigel's company -- that is, Nigel the sometime contributor to discussions
here.

<http://www.teacraft.com/Tearoom_Equipment.html>
This page is for tearoom equipment and, somewhere toward the middle, we find
the following offered for sale, and I quote: "Tea Tasting Crockery - the
International Standard ISO 3103-1980 defines the exact shapes and dimensions
of the tea tasting crockery used throughout the world." (I believe he sells
these at reasonable prices individually, but you'd have to ask him. Other
places do sell them, but more likely in lots of 12 or whatever.)

Here is his "home page" URL:
<http://www.teacraft.com/index.html>

Hope this is in some way helpful.

Michael

Actually it was I,

I recently received 20 different puerhs from Michael (shhhh lest I
anger the wannabe Usenet Gods) and I want to level the playing field
in trying to compare them. I was looking for advise from some of the
more experienced members of the group who already engage in this
activity.

Both you and Yuriy recommended Alan's posts as a starting point. I
have seen them before and will definitely take from them as I develop
my own style. I am also looking for other styles as well to learn
from.

Thanks,

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:48:42 GMT, Michael Plant >
cast caution to the wind and posted:

>I completely lost the thread from the person who recently asked about tea
>tasting methods for consistency and/or appropriate equipment. I hereby
>unabashedly throw pride aside and provide the following page from Teacraft,
>Nigel's company -- that is, Nigel the sometime contributor to discussions
>here.
>
><http://www.teacraft.com/Tearoom_Equipment.html>
>This page is for tearoom equipment and, somewhere toward the middle, we find
>the following offered for sale, and I quote: "Tea Tasting Crockery - the
>International Standard ISO 3103-1980 defines the exact shapes and dimensions
>of the tea tasting crockery used throughout the world." (I believe he sells
>these at reasonable prices individually, but you'd have to ask him. Other
>places do sell them, but more likely in lots of 12 or whatever.)
>
>Here is his "home page" URL:
><http://www.teacraft.com/index.html>
>
>Hope this is in some way helpful.
>
>Michael
>
>


Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

(Space Cowboy) wrote in message . com>...
> All I can say about the success of tea reviewers thank god they
> eventually go away. You can join the ranks of Allegorical Anodyne or
> Analytical Alan or others who have nothing more to say than taste
> great and worth every penny with the occasional critique you can buy
> it cheaper elsewhere or if you didn't like the taste it was nothing
> more than your own idiosyncratic personality tastebuds lubricated from
> watching Paris Hilton milk a cow. If it were me I'd start a BLOG
> where people have to surf to what I say and based on some arbitrary
> timeline like brewing a pot of tea it might be picked up by some media
> outlet because they are the Internet fin de la semana rage on the
> media shows with the emphasis on individual opinion contradicting
> polling surveys. As for the shill make sure we get some free samples
> too. People don't have too much to say if they don't mention how much
> it cost or where they bought it.
>
> Jim
>
> Mike Petro > wrote in message >. ..
> > After donning my flame proof suite I pose this question:
> >
> > Is it desirable to post vendor and/or specific tea reviews, assuming
> > that it is a legitimate review and not a shill?

The bile you manage to spew at such pleasant and helpful people as
Holly and Alan amazes me. The difference between you and them
couldn't be more pronounced. Whereas they clearly cared about tea and
went to some lengths to increase the available pool of information
regarding it, you are nothing but mean-spirited and largely
irrelevant. Your style which you think so highly of is simply the
pathetic maundering of a bitter old man.

You obviously want to make R.F.D.T a better place (albeit according to
some twisted standard all your own); have you considered that by
leaving you could do just that?

If you will not leave, perhaps you could keep your postings to the
topic of tea and the enjoyment thereof.

With all due respect,

Cameron

I'd start a BLOG. I'd get zero hits. So I'm not going anywhere.
Somebody does a big weekend review of Blog sites. I am surprised what
the keyboard makes me do. Lots of times I self censor and especially
on the cold days my MB spontaneously reboots and many threads go down
the drain and I hate repeating myself. But lots of times I can't
believe I said that. Mainly I live in a metro area with lots of
ethnic stores trying to make a living. Several years ago a Brit shows
up in town shouting "I'm going to teach you Yanks all about tea". I
heard that before from others long gone. He's still around and his
wife makes the best meat pie for lunch. If I'm a young man I'm going
to his every Friday night live quartet music with tea social because
the ladies are dressed up looking for someone to buy them a pot of tea
and take them to the movies across the street. I've seen it done.
One stop dating. He's been going to the Las Vegas tea expo for the
last couple of years. The last time I talked to him he buys from 30
vendors. So when I wanted some Black Dragon and WuYi he bought some
and the extra is part of his inventory. Oh those poor people at the
websites need to make a living so let me tell you about what I bought
and what it cost and let me repeat the URL for the Nth time and
besides I like too suck up and get free samples and since they don't
have a store front hope I don't get sick from someone with Hepatitis C
grabbing a handfull out of a barrel in a basement and putting it in
recycled sandwich bags. If anyone knows of a website sending someone
to the Expo let me know and I'll take them off my Browsers prohibited
websites. Eventually we get too the Boonies argument and you need an
online vendor. I lived in the Boonies before there was the Internet
and about twice a year we would go in town and stock up on essentials
and I never came back without tea.

Jim

Mike Petro > wrote in message >. ..
> Ahh, the Curmudgeon has spoken, and I expected no less. Isn't this a
> great medium where everyone can express their opinion!
>
> Incidentally I agree with you about doing something BLOG like, but I
> didn't fully understand your "week end" comment. I will probably just
> add a personal review section to my website, then those who are
> interested, and it appears that there are a few, can simply browse to
> it. Or maybe, after I am able to practice repeatable objectivity, I
> can contribute to the review site that already exists, why reinvent
> the wheel, right?
>
> However, I will still share, and promote the sharing of, vendor
> critiques in this form because it appears that many of us find them
> valuable. You of course have the option to plonk the threads that
> distress you. I am curious though, why are you so against someone
> expressing an opinion about a vendor?
>
> Actually Jim, I would truly love to share a pot of tea with you one
> day. You can be quite eloquent at times, in addition to being very (if
> not overly) opinionated.
>
> Mike

Hey you know how hard it was to come up with some appropriate
alliteration and not get any credit? From the little I know Holly
left in a big huff because of a private email falling out. My guess
Alan just got bored with himself. They weren't drummed out they left
on their on. There were the naysayers but I don't think it was mean
spirited. I prefer flights of fantasy over the temperature of water.
If I want to review I'm not going to repeat mistakes.

Jim

Michael Plant > wrote in message >...

> >> You can join the ranks of Allegorical Anodyne or Analytical Alan

> She apparently
> committed the mortal sin of decency and was inevitably "driven* away by mean
> spiritedness.
>
> Alan is a bit of a "scientist" bent on tea tasting uniformity.